Help with over achiever horse...

[JackSprats Mom]

So I had a light bulb moment today.

First let me say my horse has been going fantastically since I moved him (2-3 months ago) and changed his feed. He has gone for good to better and seems happy. Rider (me) however was shocked at recent photo's of my position :( but can finally get back into regular lessons YAY.

So that said, I have discovered that with all this change my horse is an over achiever and hence can get frustrated easily. For example, if I start on some canter work, he will begin to 'offer' what he thinks I want (which in his mind is more canter) when we come back down to trot.

Here's where I get into trouble and am unsure how to handle it. I love the fact that he's trying BUT also want to instill that he needs to wait to be asked. So if he offers and I correct by bringing him back to trot he gets upset (which varies from tenseness to stopping).

I don't want to 'punish' him for trying too hard but I'm not sure how to correct him gently enough that he learns to wait for me to ask.

I vary what I do with him alot, so that he doesn't try and pre-empt stuff and so at the moment when he starts I just go to something TOTALLY different like lateral work.

However there are area's that we need to work on, and the trouble is repetition improves it, so its a fine line between shaking things up and trying to advance.

How do you all deal with horses that over try and then get upset if corrected?

[Snapdragon]

I'm an eventer, and not a dressage expert by any means, but I have an overachiever and one who is just cranky with a bit of the attitude of "I know what I'm doing."

For both, I take a very light, happy attitude. When they anticipate, I just very calmly and not with a lot of fuss--and even with a bit of a laugh--say that's not what I want, let's just try this again. I really find having an attitude of not making it a big deal seems to help them both not get frustrated and flustered, and also seems to help us make progress. I do everything in baby steps, but eventually those baby steps turn into grown-up horse steps.

If I put the hammer down, we all just get pissed. Also, any little bit of progress, I give lots of praise with a "good girl" or a little scritch on the neck. I don't think I can emphasize this enough--it seems to relax them and let them know we're on the right path.

Editing to add, I know this may sound crazy, but one of my coaches swears by singing. When I'm working at home, or warming up at a show, I sing a happy song (under my breath) as we're going along. My latest song is the Dead's Sugar Magnolia.

Hope this helps even a little bit.

[normandy_shores]

I am in the same boat with the canter -- though my guy isn't really an overachiever, he just gets super sensitive after cantering.

His canter work is lovely, but once we come back down to trot, he just RACES and get sensitive and gets fast and wants to canter. I don't ride his fast trot well, so that only makes it work. I worked for a while on going from canter back to just walking and having a chill out break. Then I went back to trotting. Now I'm able to go from cantering to trot but need to put him on figures or do a few steps of lateral to get his brain focused elsewhere.

I throw my body at my canter transitions too, so that wasn't helping. I have a friend put me on the lunge, drop my reins, and rode downwards like crazy. After a few tries, he was breaking to the trot the SECOND I asked with my seat. DOing that once in a while reinstills in his mind what the transitions are about.

With Jules, our trot work sucks, so I do MOST of my ride trotting anyways. His canter work has always been superb with very little work, and his transitions are becoming more organized the less I do them (aka, he's less frazzled), so it works in my favor not to do much cantering (which is a shame, his canter is looofffffly to ride).

[slc2]

There is a phase in training where horses anticipate. If you stop thinking of it as 'over achiever' and start thinking of it as a disobedience and a problem with how you apply the aids, it helps.

You don't have to throw the book at them, just stop them without getting mad, and do the transition (or whatever they are anticipating) again. It doesn't really matter if the horse experiences a moment of confusion or annoyance when you go about breaking a habit, that is a part of training...as long as you aren't just correcting the horse, but also correcting what you do, so the disobedience doesn't happen again. If he stops have him continue, if he tosses his head ('gets tense'?) bend him and go forward. No big deal. On you go.

But also, and this is really important, check what you are doing before the canter transition...get very, very criticial of that.

Generally, what happens is people have what my someone I worked with called, 'A half an hour of fussing around and one minute of canter aid, which drives the horse nuts'. Learn to not do any 'preparation' for the canter. Just say, 'canter' with your aids, boom, and then there is nothing to anticipate. This is a problem everyone goes through. The horse is fussing because the rider does so many different things to prepare to canter, so every time the rider twitches an eyebrow the horse canters.

The bottom line is the horse is saying, 'what exactly IS your canter aid, huh? Is it all the fussing around, or what?'

And this tends to be the biggest problem with cantering, but it does happen in other situations, such as teaching flying lead changes, where you learn the meaning of the 'do not change' aid, LOL.

Just say 'canter'. Boom. Horse canters. As one trainer said, 'You're not doing a pre flight check on a fighter jet, just CANTER!'

Most people, if you tell them that, they say, 'But I'm not doing anything like that!' And the answer is...ooooooh yes you are, and the proof is the very behavior you're griping about.....LOL. Ah, dressage.

The biggest challenge in dressage is to recognize when you are having a 'normal problem' that has a very, very simple fix that involves making very, very simple changes to what you do, that everyone else has gone through before you. It's a well traveled road and you can either wear a rut in the road or make the change and go on. The problems are common to all dressage riders. No one avoids any of it.

[merrygoround]

A lot of horses anticipate. Some, bless their patient little souls, never do.:yes: Those that do are an endless challenge. Training is a mental game. :yes:

That you are getting back to regular lessons, and will be getting corrections on you position is good, and will be helpful. I suspect that you are being more forceful in your corrections than need be. A good instructor will fix you. And that will solve your problems. Or at least the ones you have now. There's always "the next exciting episode". :lol:

[blackhorse6]

I have had my horse in professional training and what a wake up call.. SLC is right on this one...to much messing around when asking for canter.. When I was "preparing" to ask my horse for canter the first time, the trainer said.."Don't change anything"!! I gave the correct aid and immidiately he cantered on..beautifully I might add:yes: I am sure she has had students prepare the crap out of the canter depart so she forwarned me! Also I found that when he wants to really move forward after the canter, instead of stopping the forward momentum, I will start serpentines, circles and laterial exercises to get his mind off of what "he" wants to do.. It is a win win situation for both of us..OH, half halts help:)

[slc2]

The part of this problem that is REALLY the biggest eye opener is this not actually the canter aid at all, of course that has to change, but why IS IT THAT WAY IN THE FIRST PLACE!

The eye opener - that if you have to fuss alot before asking for a canter, your trot was deficient.

As is heard screamed from the rooftops by trainers who have finally gone mad because no one ever listens to them, LOL, 'IF YOU HAVE TO PREPARE THAT MUCH, WHY ARE YOU RIDING AROUND AND AROUND IN A TROT THAT NEEDS THAT MUCH PREPARATION TO JUST *** CANTER *** ???????'

Ride a trot that you can make a 'boom' canter transition at any moment. And then do it.

Too, decide on a very simple canter aid that you can do in a second. Sit up straight, nudge the heel, and of course the big one, don't get so fussy about bending the horse and doing things with the reins. You'll regret that one later anyway, teach him to canter largely from a nudge of the outside heel back and the inside leg at the girth. You can sit up straight, give a little tiny touch to one rein and nudge with a heel, kind of a little mini half halt that is more of a 'hello!' in under 1/10th of a second.

Practice off the horse. Put the saddle on a hay bale, and practice it, and see how fast you can do it all in. Boom, canter. Easy, easy, easy. We tend to way overthink things and over complicate them.

Trot. Canter one circle. A half of a circle. Trot again. Canter. Trot. Canter. Do it for a half hour. Do the transition at a letter, and force yourself to not move a muscle of your canter aids til you get to the letter. There's an eye opener! What's that trot? It's a heck of a lot different from the old one, that's for sure. Maintain a trot that is forward, bending, loose, and together. Maintain a trot you could do anything from.

All of a sudden, doing stuff at the letter while you are riding all the time, rather than just while practicing tests...all of a sudden, the light comes on. The reason for practicing with the letters becomes clear...it actually cleans up your aids. Kind of a wash cycle for how you ride.

[Fantastic]

I was going to say it, but SLC beat me to it - twice! (very good explanation as always, by the way!). Operator error. 9.75 times out of 10, in situations like this where horse's don't react the way The Rider thinks they should - the problems are The Riders fault and not the horse's.

If you stop thinking of it as 'over achiever' and start thinking of it as a disobedience and a problem with how you apply the aids, it helps.


It's not even disobedience. It's The Rider not communicating, giving mixed signals, making mistakes, annoying the horse - and the horse can only guess how he is supposed to react.

Definately not the horse's fault. Precise aid application, strict timing of the aids, independent seat and hands - and horse reacts as it should.

[slc2]

If you were in a test, at a show, a judge would mark it as a 'disobedience'.

It would be fairly politically incorrect, if the judge had the scribe write, 'you effed it up'. 'Disobedience' is, well, a euphemism.

It is left to your trainer or instructor to inform you that 'you effed it up'. That is one of the eternal dressage truths...:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Don't get mad at ME. I'm just explaining how things really are. And I'm not mad about it, or particularly above or outside of it. In fact, I think it's hysterically funny, our inexorable, inescapable little burden in dressage, and very true.

How well a person ever learns how to do dressage, is directly related to how thoroughly they get that particular message. And to how able they are to realize that everything is their bloody fault, and still want to go out and ride every day.

Whose fault it is is another matter entirely from the word 'disobedience', which is a neutral word. A disobedience is ONLY a disobedience, it doesn't say anything else other than...'a was supposed to happen, b happened'.

Besides, there isn't enough space to write in the box, 'What were you THINKING? Did you do ANYTHING? Did you MOVE? Did your horse even know you were UP there?'

Don't confuse 'disobedience' with some suggestion of 'horrible vile horsey'.

Fact is, no horse is a robot, and they don't have buttons that we push the same way every day. There is no plug in dressage horse software. We are in a conversation, not a computer simulation.

Whether the horse is being a complete ass, is terrified to death, or any number of other things, the rider is responsible for dealing with it. If the horse is a complete ass that day, the rider can ride more firmly, change his warmup, or just say, 'sorry Precious, this is how it is', if he's afraid, the rider can ride confidently forward, stay calm himself, distract the horse. If rider gives an aid and horsey blows it off, there is actually, a protocol for that which the rider is supposed to follow - escalating the aids immediately.

Whatever happens is always the rider. The rider's job is to ride the horse.

I think of it this way. If you removed the rider, the horse would not be going around the ring, doing 20 meter circles, half circles, trot transitions at B and canter transitions at A. He would be chewing on the fence, scratching his butt, running around like a maniac, or taking a poop.

So technically, anything he's doing under saddle, is actually the rider's doing. Popping out the shoulder? Where's your outside rein? Slogging along when you give a leg aid? Where's your basic training?

It's a big responsibility, actually. But saying, 'it's the horse's fault' is the oldest excuse in the book, and the weakest.

[pintopiaffe]

I look at it as a 'volunteer' horse. I got some really wonderful, and quite helpful advice here when I posted about it a while back. I will try to search for that thread if it's not been pruned yet.

SLC's first two posts are very good, IMHO.

Here are just a couple things which help with my guy. The first, biggest, is that I *do* mentally think of it as volunteering. It is a very positive, forward attribute, and you already know it's super-important not to squash that. ;)

I might, for a couple of days, do ONE canter, one direction, and that's it. Then we'll go back to free walk, bringing him up to working walk 20x, then a bit more trot, some lateral work, ne'er to canter again that day. He goes, 'huh,' after a bit and seems a bit dissapointed, but it helps. :p

I found I am very, very predictable. I used to walk on a long rein. Then trot on a long rein. Then put the horse together and do school figures, then canter. Then reverse, and guess what... canter. ;)

Since my horse comes in to ride from full turnout, I don't really need the kind of physical warmup I would for a stalled horse. I still need SOME warmup--but not the 'routine.' Some days I walk, then canter right off.

I absolutely don't school the same thing two days in a row with this horse. From a conditioning standpoint, I use the endurance model... but from a mental standpoint, if I school canter or lateral work daily, then he'll really anticipate. Instead, day 1 we might do a ton of long and low, then 'compression' (coming up to collection/transitions) work, with fairly litte lateral work--just enough SI to straigten and collect. Day 2 we might really concentrate on lateral work. Those fun figures like 1/2 10m circle to half-pass, SI to HI, SI to have volte, etc. etc. We might not even canter that day. Day 3 might be an early day to work for me, and I might have a short ride--and I'll do canter transitions. Period. Really! I might do 25 minutes of walk-canter and that's it. Or trot-canter... but as many transitions up and down as I can fit in my limited time. Day 4 might be hillwork and leaping a few objects... or a long-slow-distance ride... Day 5 is putting it all together and practicing test sequences.

Now, there are days off in there, but I mix those up and try to never to the same thing 2x in a row. Obviously you can't 'avoid' lateral work, or collection or whatever because those are the tools or the end result of whatever you're doing... but the focus each day is on something different than the day before.

When I am faithfully following this, we get FAR better results and far less anticipating. When I 'school' two days in a row... come in walk, trot, lateral work, canter, counter canter, etc. I tend to get a very volunteer day. ;)

A 'trick' of sorts I use if he's particularly sparkly and volunteering too much, is to treat him. Apples work best bcause they keep the mouth moist and last a little longer, but since he'll just about lay down and play dead for sugar, I do use Domino dots quite frequently... The *physical process* of him reaching around to touch my toe, then getting his treat (first one side, then the other) and of CHEWING, relieves a lot of tension and stress. It is a mechanical way of flexion of the jaw. I move off fairly quickly after the treat, and he is still chewing and swallowing for a few minutes. ~*voila*~ compliant, soft horse. Distracted a bit from the anticipation, and the physical releases that accompany are extremely useful.

Being a predictable human though, make sure you vary when you treat... It's a little embarassing to "X, halt, saulute, touch toe." ;)

That's just off the top of my head. I always, always wanted a 'forward' horse. A 'real dressage' horse For years. Now I have purpose bred, forward THINKING and moving horses. And it's not really as easy as I thought it would be. :winkgrin:

[AnotherRound]

I didn't read through alot of the responses, but agree with the idea of "anticipation".

I have always been taught to work on halts and half halts and correct right away. Bring them back to you. Its normal. I think of it as coming from boredom, sometimes! "OK, lets do what we always do, now you want to canter, right?" So I might say "well, maybe, maybe not" and work a trotting figure eight and ask for a canter out of it in an odd moment, stop right away. Stand. Move right out into a sitting trot. You know. Interesting and sweet sounding horse!

[in_the_zone]

Ready? half halt
And. put outside leg back
Canter. squeeze and go

Say it and do it just like that! Do it on the lunge and do it undersaddle. Ta da!

...pre-flight check for a fight jet...*GIGGLE*

On second thought, I think I'll take my own advice next time I practice my walk-canters. :P

[goeslikestink]

So I had a light bulb moment today.

First let me say my horse has been going fantastically since I moved him (2-3 months ago) and changed his feed. He has gone for good to better and seems happy. Rider (me) however was shocked at recent photo's of my position :( but can finally get back into regular lessons YAY.

So that said, I have discovered that with all this change my horse is an over achiever and hence can get frustrated easily. For example, if I start on some canter work, he will begin to 'offer' what he thinks I want (which in his mind is more canter) when we come back down to trot.

Here's where I get into trouble and am unsure how to handle it. I love the fact that he's trying BUT also want to instill that he needs to wait to be asked. So if he offers and I correct by bringing him back to trot he gets upset (which varies from tenseness to stopping).

I don't want to 'punish' him for trying too hard but I'm not sure how to correct him gently enough that he learns to wait for me to ask.

I vary what I do with him alot, so that he doesn't try and pre-empt stuff and so at the moment when he starts I just go to something TOTALLY different like lateral work.

However there are area's that we need to work on, and the trouble is repetition improves it, so its a fine line between shaking things up and trying to advance.

How do you all deal with horses that over try and then get upset if corrected?

easy -
read my helpful links page and learn how to do the half halt stride this informs the horse something going to change that way hes wont antispate your moves but you will be in control of his moves

[mbm]

here is what i have been taught. if the horse canters instead of whatever you asked - work the canter til it is nice then ask again for the trot. you cant get a good transition out of a bad gait.

always pretend that you wanted what the horse gave you..... in this way you don't dampen their enthusiasm.

of course check your aids/position/TIMING .

plus, what i have been taught is the canter aid is just HH/HH/HH and to step down into the inside stirrup...

[meupatdoes]

One of mine is exactly like this.

When he anticipates, I smile, pat him to settle him down and tell him, "Good boy, I'm going to try to do this over again but I'm not mad and I still think you're wonderful, ok?" and then I very quietly try to start over.

I use a lot of voice to help him understand.

And for the record I do not get how "disobedience" is a neutral word.
"Disobedience" is saying no, or resisting. It implies something negative on the part of the horse.

Meanwhile with anticipation the horse is trying to so hard he is trying to read your mind. He is so willing and generous in his work he tries to offer the next thing on his own.

That isn't disobedience it is a humbling level of generosity and try.

[Dressage Art]

How do you all deal with horses that over try and then get upset if corrected?

You put it in such a lovely way... unfortunately; it's not really "overachieving" but an "avoidance" to listen to his rider. The horse is trying to train the rider by repeatedly showing to that rider what HE wants to do and getting upset if the rider asks/correct him.

The horse wants to be the trainer and wants to do only what he wants to do at that moment. It should be very clear that he needs to learn how to listen to his rider and that he should be able to say "yes" to a rider being a trainer and the leader.

Also, in show tests, the sudden "humbling level of generosity and try" from your horse will not be able to be rewarded, since AS A TEST OF HORSE'S TRAINING show tests are calling for a very specific response on a very specific place at a very specific gait - and any deviation from that will be interpreted as "issues" and "a lack of schooling", not generosity ;)

[pintopiaffe]

Thought about this last night when I had a 'canwegonowhuhGOhuhGO??' kind of hillwork ride...

The relationship between suppleness and obedience is intimately intertwined. You can't have one without the other, though you can have greater or lesser degrees of each. It took me a long time to realize that... and I still forget.

If he is anticipating, or distracted, or whatever, he is not supple. If he is not supple, he is not obedient. If he is obedient, he is supple...

Once I get him through the back and soft in the poll, he stops anticipating, since he is then obedient and truly on my aids.

It's simple. Not easy, by any means, but... <shrugs>

Last night I should have gotten off and worked in hand. But it was supposed to be a conditioning ride, not a schooling ride. I was chasing the light. I just wanted to get in the trot sets. So instead of getting off and working in hand, I *schooled* him anyway--to be allowed to be tight in the back and tense in the jaw. I'll have to undo that today. ;)

[meupatdoes]

You put it in such a lovely way... unfortunately; it's not really "overachieving" but an "avoidance" to listen to his rider. The horse is trying to train the rider by repeatedly showing to that rider what HE wants to do and getting upset if the rider asks/correct him.

The horse wants to be the trainer and wants to do only what he wants to do at that moment. It should be very clear that he needs to learn how to listen to his rider and that he should be able to say "yes" to a rider being a trainer and the leader.

Also, in show tests, the sudden "humbling level of generosity and try" from your horse will not be able to be rewarded, since AS A TEST OF HORSE'S TRAINING show tests are calling for a very specific response on a very specific place at a very specific gait - and any deviation from that will be interpreted as "issues" and "a lack of schooling", not generosity ;)

My first response is that if I respond to my horse in the way you are describing, I not only get nowhere, I go backwards. If were to respond to his anticipation by making it "very clear that he needs to learn how to listen," that would effectively be the end of the ride.
If I want to actually get somewhere with him, the ride has to be not about dominance and submission but about, 'Hey bubby, wait for me so we can do it together and not you all by yourself." It categorically has nothing to do with him "wanting to be the trainer" or wanting "to do only what he wants."
This horse, when ridden correctly, turns himself absolutely inside out and never ever says no.


My second response is that my horses are horses first and show horses second. They are my partners first and showing vehicles second.
My favorite show ring ride on this particular horse, ever, was when he *knew* he had nailed the outside line and he let fly with a celebratory buck, before heading down the long approach to the final oxer on the quarter line and jumping it with a show-off squeal.
As far as ribbon-getting goes, it was a 'waste' of a trip, as the buck was "not able to be rewarded."

Oh well.
Knowing my horse is happy in his work, and having a rollicking good time with him one rainy evening under the lights (he really did nail that outside line, and it was poetry), was a bigger reward.

Others may disagree, and that's fine, but my personal riding style is very little about dominance on my part and submission on theirs. It is exceedingly rare for me to have an, "I am the boss, you are the horse" discussion with a horse.
I let the horses have a say. I don't mind if they play up. I want them to take a playful, eager and active part in their work, not a submissive or passive one.

If I have to sit a couple exuberant bucks or forfeit the occasional ribbon, that's fine with me, because my primary priority is to have a playful partnership, and then we can deal with horse shows and where exactly the lead changes need to be after that.

[Dressage Art]

if I respond to my horse in the way you are describing, I not only get nowhere, I go backwards. If were to respond to his anticipation by making it "very clear that he needs to learn how to listen," that would effectively be the end of the ride. Sorry to hear that your horse can't take clear aids yet. It's about asking a clear question and getting a correct answer. With more schooling he should be able to take the lightest, but clear aids and give you an immediate correct response with out arguing with you or bucking. If you will continue to allow arguments, even playful arguments from your horse, he will learn that it’s OK to give you several answers on every of your questions or even buck. The higher the levels you go, the less time there is to encourage your horse for playful arguments. When you turn on the diagonal, your horse should not be giving you several options of what he is anticipating to do, but he should wait until you ask him for a very specific movement with your very clear aids.

This horse, when ridden correctly, turns himself absolutely inside out and never ever says no.
Then just try to ride him correctly every ride. Practice playful rewarding rather than playful arguments.

[meupatdoes]

Sorry to hear that your horse can't take clear aids yet. It's about asking a clear question and getting a correct answer. With more schooling he should be able to take the lightest, but clear aids and give you an immediate correct response with out arguing with you or bucking.
But this thread is about anticipation. The whole point is that I haven't given the aid yet, but when we turn down the diagonal he suspects the lead change is coming and before I give any aid he says, "HERE YOU GO!"
If he responds this easily to an aid that he thinks might be coming soon, I'm sure you can logically deduce from there how quickly and easily responds to aids I actually give.
He takes clear aids just fine.
Obviously the anticipation needs to be worked on, but not, imo, by explaining to him that he just needs to learn how to listen. He's listening, believe me.

If you will continue to allow arguments, even playful arguments from your horse, he will learn that it’s OK to give you several answers on every of your questions or even buck.

Why is everything that is not rote submissive obedience an argument?
I simply do not view his responses as confrontations.
If he celebrates coming out of a line, I sit it, chuckle a little, and carry on with our turn to the next jump.
If he offers an early change I gently whoa, come around again, and then turn onto the diagonal into a downward transition to help explain the 'wait' concept.

There is a difference between that approach and between treating him like he is trying to train me and only wanting to do what he wants, which couldn't be further from the truth, or acting like he isn't allowed to put a foot down unless I say.

Meanwhile, I've been riding him for four years now. If there were going to be disastrous results from my lenient approach, I'm sure they would have surfaced by now. For better or for worse he turned out to be a horse who is actually very consistent in the show ring and one that you can walk into the ring knowing that the ride is yours to eff up. The horse is always ready to be accurate and correct. He carries 8yos around courses.
He has also gone from being sour and grumpy in his work, when I got him, to one where people consistently remark on his pleasant expression and say, "Man, that horse really loves his job."

It doesn't always go to h*ll in a handbasket if you relax a little and let the horse be a horse from time to time.


Then just try to ride him correctly every ride. Practice playful rewarding rather than playful arguments.
Playful rewarding must be remarkably similar to ignoring the occasional exuberance, not taking anticipation as a personal insult to me being the leader but instead recognizing it as try that could use some gentle redirection, and praising when he gets it just right.

I do not understand why you find my approach so offensive or why you are being so condescending to me in this conversation.

[mjhco]

I have an overachiever.

It is a blessing and not so much a blessing.

I have to be very clear in what I am asking. If I am not clear he will try to guess what I am asking. Most of the time he is correct. Occasionally he is not. His wonderful attitude has caused me to be a much better and much more accurate rider.

It was great when we were jumping. My job was to point us in the general direction of the correct fences. He felt his job was to get us over and on safely and in good form.

In the dressage ring, I am much more confident and precise and he is happy to go along with that.

Fortunately I train with people who UNDERSTAND the overachiever and understand it does not work to use force or to dominate or to discourage his desire to do anything and everything we ask. As a result he gives 110% every day. I will not do anything to discourage that.

I enjoy working with a living, breathing, THINKING horse.

[Dressage Art]

I'm strongly against the harsh training methods. So please, let’s be very clear that "rewarding anticipation" is quite far from "correcting anticipation" and it is not the same as "punishing anticipation"

Most horses do anticipate, it's not really such a unique aspect and it's a very well known training issue that many riders will have to deal with at one point in their training. I personally don't believe in rewarding anticipation. If the horse really anticipates, it'll back fire in the show ring.

Anticipation needs to be corrected with gentle aids and cool head, stop, make a circle, go back and ask for it one more time. If horse anticipates, go to another corner of the arena and ask there, may be the change of surroundings will be better. But no way reward or ignore the anticipation, b/c early transitions, not able to hold a counter canter, early flying changes, braking a canter or trot - those are all costly mistakes

I do not understand why you find my approach so offensive or why you are being so condescending to me in this conversation.I don't think that I even addressed you in my first post. May be you are reading too much in to it? If your method works for you - great. Just keep on doing what you are doing.

[sid]

Haven't read all the replies.

Some horses "habituate" more quickly than others. Often they are more physically sensitive..or mentally more eager to do what they think they are supposed to do. Conditioned response can come more quickly with some horses than others. Fast learners.

I don't reward anything a horse does that I did not ask it to do when I am working with it, whether on the ground or under saddle. I don't necessarily "punish" either and possibly destroy that sensitivity. I just clearly adjust what I do to correct that "brain lock" (habituation)" and move on. Fine tuning.

Because horses like this are sensitive (whether it be physicall, mentally or have been overschooled in one particular thing), I just mix things up to get them refocused so they can no longer anticipate. They can't anticipate what they don't know is coming. They usually get that drift immediately, as long as one is consistent in the correction and judicious.

I LOVE horses like this.

[JackSprats Mom]

Thanks for all the well thought out replies.

This is an issue I am going to have to handle quite delicately with him as he wasn't always so willing and I don't want to have him start thinking backwards again (been there, done that, wasn't fun).

Anticipation needs to be corrected with gentle aids and cool head, stop, make a circle, go back and ask for it one more time.

He's incredibly sensitive and smart so I appreciate those folks that address going a different route as asking him to trot or HH and redo the transition just creates frustration in him (which will build with this horse).

Sid I'm glad you like them like this...its a huge learning curve for me, not for the anticipation but in addressing it in a way that makes everyone (him and me) happy. This is not a horse you can tell anything to, its a horse that needs to have a discussion on things so that he feels happy with how its asked. If you try and tell him things become ugly fast and will last for days like that, I've found it easier to discuss, get over the issue and move in that day.

There are several idea's that I like the sound of and will try, again thank you all~!

[sid]

Now what you are describing as far as "this isn't a horse that you can tell what to do" is a bit different from what I was describing.

Sounds like your buddy is a bit "in charge" of your brain. He sounds ever so clever! Love those too, but it can be very easy to overthink what is happening...and he knows it!;)

[JackSprats Mom]

Sounds like your buddy is a bit "in charge" of your brain.

Ahhh its not that he's 'in charge' its just that I've dealt with his tantrums in the past and we've moved on (I hope) BUT this is not a horse that I want to get into a fight with if I don't have to...if I can find a way around the problem that makes us both happy thats how I prefer to do it. Hence the reason why I want him to feel that he's not being punished for trying as this is new for him!

[SkippinwithPippin]

Okay, first let me say that I am in no way, shape, or form a "great" dressage rider as I and my horse are learning (and stumbling, and learning, etc).

But, he does the same thing...anticipates and goes into the canter when I didn't ask. Here's what I do, and I'm telling you this horse is SeNsItIvE to the max, so I have to have patience and softness at all times:

When he starts cantering without being told, I let him go a few strides, then half halt, sit deep, stop my following, and ask for the trot. I have to make sure I am asking for forward at the same time, though, or he'll stop on a dime and get pissy. Then I go to work on trot-walk-trot transitions until he stops breaking into a canter from the trot. If that isn't working, it's walk-halt-walk transitions every five or six strides. This gets him listening to me and actually anticipating a downward transition. Then, when I ask for the canter, he says, "Oh! That sounds like a great idea!" and goes into it beautifully.

I also try to keep his mind working at all times unless we're taking a break on a long rein. Like I said, he's sensitive, so I try to avoid arguments because it only leads to a sweaty, pissed off, head-tossing horse who's accomplishing nothing!

We actually just had to do the above steps tonight because he was being rather "testy"!
Hope it helps!

[sid]

Stopping the action that he is presenting without your asking for it and quickly changing venue is not "punishing". He may not like it at first, but it is not punishing. No fight should ensue, but I think you need to get rid of your fear of what you call fights on the ground when he was younger. Get rid of the past!

He sounds like a quick fellow..so you have to be quicker and anticipate before HE anticipates...if that makes any sense. Once you "get ahead" of him, peace will prevail I'm sure.

Mix up what you do. As I mentioned before, he can't anticipate if he doesn't know what is coming next. Good luck. Sounds like a smart fellow that you need to outsmart in by changing up his routine every single day...:yes:

[mbm]

something to think about: the canter aid is the bending aid is the HP aid is the......

in other words, really there are only a few different aids we use. and it is very easy for a certain type of horse to over answer.... and *if* the rider is off a bit with their timing then the horse thinks the rider said canter when in fact the rider was saying just stay here trotting on this 15 meter circle. ( i do believe that in general when a horse anticipates - they are reacting to something the rider is telling it to do - even if the rider thinks they aren't )

i do believe that while the horse is learning the best way to handle this type of thing is to pretend that you asked for whatever they gave you (and this is recommended by various ODGs) . then, once you have the canter working well - then ask for a transition and go back to what you were doing. check your position/timing/etc and try again.

and i agree that if you have a horse enthusiastic enough to offer things - best to accept this and use it to your advantage :)

[kdow]

i do believe that while the horse is learning the best way to handle this type of thing is to pretend that you asked for whatever they gave you (and this is recommended by various ODGs) . then, once you have the canter working well - then ask for a transition and go back to what you were doing. check your position/timing/etc and try again.

I'm pretty sure I just watched video of a Steffen Peters clinic on YouTube where he did this very thing - they were working on trot circles, and the horse offered up a canter. The rider started to pull him back but Steffen basically said no, go, make it a good canter - they cantered around the arena once or twice and then did a downward transition into a nice trot and started the circles again.

To the OP - might it also help to get this particular horse OUT of the arena? Quite a lot of dressage things can be worked on out hacking - transitions, circles in fields, etc. Getting him into new surroundings might get his brain back on paying attention to you for cues, instead of going 'oh, diagonal, we're going to do THIS!'

[slc2]

Yeah, and Stephan could probably see that the rider told the horse to canter, too.

When a horse picks up a canter because I made a mistake, I don't start pulling on the reins and get all huffy with him. I just say, 'oops', and canter.

People do that sort of thing all the time, they just don't realize it. When the rider makes a mistake it isn't really fair to put that on the horse.

But if the horse makes an honest mistake, I wouldn't go all medieval on him, either. One can repeat the exercise quietly, just to help the horse understand what the aid is.

Example. Teaching flying changes. After one lesson, horse is now what is called completely and entirely 'change happy'. He has no real confirmed idea of what the aids for the change are, all he knows for a while is he did a flying lead change over there by 'A'. Every time he canters near 'A', he is now thinking you gonna want him to change there.

Also, he now thinks (especially if he was trained to make a flying lead change by the rider leaning or otherwise causing him to lose his balance, like an abrupt change of direction), that if he starts to feel off balance, he SHOULD change leads.

Too, if the rider's aids aren't exactly clear, he is going to take LONGER to figure out what the aids are. We have so many problems because we don't give clear aids, or because we can't control our bodies well enough at other times that it doesn't seem to the horse like he IS being asked to do a flying change.

Additionally, if he is losing his balance during the change, he is going to run, scramble, whatever, to try and keep his balance during the change, and additionally, every time he even STARTS to lose his balance, he'll think it's fine to swap leads.

So what to do if horsey starts throwing in changes all over the place, every time we blink? I can tell you what I try to do :

Stop, so horsey realizes that was the wrong answer. But don't yank his head off, don't scream at him, simply stop right away. Repeat the exercise...QUIETLY, and this is the key, try to ride it better.

Treat it as if you asked someone a question in a conversation, and just needed to very quietly say, 'Sorry, that wasn't the question I meant'. When you do that in a conversation, you think very, very hard about 'how can I make clear what I mean'.

If you allow the canter to go 'on and on and on' (like 2 seconds, horse only thinks one second ahead), so you have just taught him, 'yes, that's what i meant'.

If you treat it as 'eagerness' and accept the change every time he does it, you now have a horse that does auto swaps, and precious little else.

Horses don't need to be taught to do flying changes or really, anything in dressage. They are horses, they do flying changes all the time, they also trot, walk and stop all the time. None of this is ever something they actually learn. What they have to learn is, what is the aid for a flying change.

[egontoast]

Yeah, and Stephan could probably see that the rider told the horse to canter, too

Who is "Stephan"? If you are new to dressage and have never heard of Steffen Peters, I apologize.

Horses don't need to be taught to do flying changes or really, anything in dressage. They are horses, they do flying changes all the time, they also trot, walk and stop all the time. None of this is ever something they actually learn. What they have to learn is, what is the aid for a flying change

I wonder if that will be breaking news to anyone here.:confused:

[meupatdoes]

I don't think that I even addressed you in my first post. May be you are reading too much in to it? If your method works for you - great. Just keep on doing what you are doing.

You directly quoted me in your first post, which led me to the belief that you were commenting on my post.

But maybe I'm reading to much into it.

[Dressage Art]

You directly quoted me in your first post, which led me to the belief that you were commenting on my post.
But maybe I'm reading to much into it.
Oh, I see... I don't really look at the names when I read posts, what people wrote is actually more interesting to me than to remember hundreds of web names. I'd rather talk about subject in general, than to address a particular poster... so don’t take it personally.

About the subject with OP: it's interesting that from OP's writing it does seem that the horse is in more control and did kind off trained his rider to avoid confrontations, even if the horse is doing not what you asked for. It's interesting how posters keep coming back with observation that the horse seems to be in charge and the rider is taken a more passive seat and just hoping that the issue will go away. Yet, OP keeps on denying that.

Kids do similar thing with parent by throwing tantrums, and after a while parents would rather not get in fights with them if they don’t have to – so they give them every little thing that kids want… if parent sais “no” – kid will threaten to throw a tantrum and parent backs off… The problem is that this kid grow up to be a teenager, but if parent avoids confronting his child, the issues grow in to problems … I think we all seen those kind of kids and teens… the interesting phenomena that parents of those kids do NOT realize that they are creating those problems themselves by NOT addressing issues and NOT standing up to them. Do you have kids? Did you ever read up on dealing with tantrums? Google "10 Ways to Tame Your Kid's Tantrums" and apply it to your horse, it just might work.

You know, when I started to ride my mare, she use to rear a dozen times per ride… I worked with her on the ground for 2+ years and was avoiding confronting her in the saddle. At the end, the ground work did help, but it was the discipline of gently, but firmly saying “no” to her issues and inviting her, asking her clearly to do a job and rewarding her for that. But rewarding, ignoring or punishing should be outlined VERY clearly and practiced clearly every day, so the horse can learn what is good, what is OK and what is unwelcomed. That is the reason, why praising the horse for unwanted action is NOT a way to go.

[mbm]

i never read anyone to say praise a horse for an unwanted action (?) maybe i missed that part.

also a horse giving you canter instead of trot is not the same as rearing. two totally different scenarios - with hopefully different ways of handling.

the challenge for those of us who are "too kind" is to stay true to our beliefs while also staying in charge.

also we dont want to dampen the horses enthusiasm - especially for a horse that is just now offering stuff.

my feeling is to always be sure the rder is gving clear well timed aids..... if the horse gives something the rder thinks they didnt ask for (canter instead of trot etc) the rider needs to first check themselves, work the canter until it is good, then ask for trot and try again.

what benefit would it be to pull the horse back down to trot in an unbalanced way? what would that teach the horse?

far better folks than i recommend the action of acting like that is what oyu asked for - :)

as for unwanted changes - same thing. why punish or make the horse feel bad for doing something it thinks you are asking for?

better to clarify what you are asking and try again.

[meupatdoes]

That is the reason, why praising the horse for unwanted action is NOT a way to go.

You keep referring to "encouraging" arguments or "praising the horse for unwanted action," but I don't see anyone suggesting that here.

Certainly I was not.

There is a very big difference between giving praise and withholding it, especially to an equine overachiever.

[Dressage Art]

When he anticipates, I smile, pat him to settle him down and tell him, "Good boy
This is praising for the anticipation.

Your horse will understand that when he anticipates and does something that you didn't ask him to do, something that he decided to do before you asked him ---> you will "pat him and tell him, Good boy".

The aids have to be very clear. With out unearned "Good boys". Constantly telling your horse that he is a "good boy" doesn't = kindness ;) There are so many ways to be “kind” to our horses. For example, soft and steady hands of a rider are much "kinder" than 100 “Good boys” If somebody wants to be more kinder to their horses, why not to try to work harder on giving, gentle hands and soft aids.

[meupatdoes]

This is praising for the anticipation.

Your horse will understand that when he anticipates and does something that you didn't ask him to do, something that he decided to do before you asked him ---> you will "pat him ... and tell him, Good boy".

The aids have to be very clear.

No it's not, actually.

By way of example:
After a horse spooks with me, when I have control again, I pat him.
Some people think this is praising the horse for spooking.
It isn't.

The spook happened without praise, and often with a corrective action on top: "WHOA!", or "LEG YIELD!" The spook was not praised.

The praise is for when I have control again: "I said 'Whoa!' and you listened, now you are being good again, good boy." I am not holding a grudge about the spook that happened one stride ago. I am praising the stride that is going on NOW.

Same deal for the action you quoted (which you selectively quoted only half of, and then quoted a second time with key words in the middle additionally omitted). The WHOLE SENTENCE with the parts you selectively omitted bolded was, "When he anticipates, I smile, pat him to settle him down and tell him, "Good boy, I'm going to try to do this over again but I'm not mad and I still think you're wonderful, ok?" and then I very quietly try to start over.
I think we can agree that the sentence takes on a different meaning when you cite the whole thing. My original sentence clearly goes on to address the anticipation behavior, in your quote it sounds like I do not address the anticipation behavior at all. Maybe my sentence was not the best written, but leaving out half of it so that it sounds totally different is not exactly fair.

In practice, when a horse anticipates and throws an early change, for example, I ignore the anticipation, and then praise when he IS doing something I want. So he throws the change early, I whoa and pat. He WAS anticipating, but NOW he has LISTENED to my whoa and we are on the same page again, and for that he gets the pat.


A refined sense of timing is key to having clear aids.

[Dressage Art]

I think we can agree that the sentence takes on a different meaning when you cite the whole thing.
For whom, for humans? May be. For horses? It's still a pat and a "Good Boy". I think its unnecessary mudding the aids for the horse that is already confused and anticipating. If a horse not confused = then no problem, but if the horse is confused and there are several variations of "Good Boys" that has to be interpreted only with clause attached = one doesn't usually have to wonder why that horse is misunderstanding his rider.

Anyway, good luck. Anticipation can be quite frustrating. I see it on intro levels and on FEI levels. It's not an easy thing to deal with.

[meupatdoes]

If a horse not confused = then no problem, but if the horse is confused and there are several variations of "Good Boys" that has to be interpreted only with clause attached = one doesn't usually have to wonder why that horse is misunderstanding his rider.

The "clause attached" is the timing, which you fail to address and deliberately quote around.

I understand that I did not perfectly construct my sentence to convey the timing issue, but the way you re-quoted it did my sentence a further disservice.

If you are going to argue that it would be unfair of me to criticize you for misinterpreting a sentence that I did not write clearly enough in the first place, then maybe you will come to the same side as I am on about not disciplining a horse who is anticipating.

Unless of course my responding to your inaccurate reading of my slightly bungled sentence by telling you that you "need to learn how to listen" (or in this case, read) would be a reaction on my part that you would appreciate and/or would feel was justified.

[MyReality]

It may be better if the OP could restate the problem without trying to diagnose it. There are huge differenced between a real over-achiever, then a horse that is tense, then a horse anticipating, then a horse that is disobedient, then a horse that is confused, then a horse that has too much energy, then a horse that has performance anxiety.

Anticipation is mostly about tension and confusion and poor timing. For instance, rider released when the horse canters (great!) but release is poorly or not executed during downward transition. Then the horse will keep cantering, or performing canter depart unasked for, as he seeks release. Or perhaps there is not enough rebalancing switching out of a movement, it will cause the horse to keep doing that movement, as he is frightened to come out of it. If a horse always does something at A, it means he has never really understand that something is caused by an aid, but rather a location... it means the rider has been unable to, repetitively, prepare him for the aid, nor explain the aid, nor execute the aid, or follow up.

If a horse gets upset about correction, usually it is about the horse thinks the correction contradicts what he is told to do (i.e. mixed messages), or the correction is much too strong for the offence, or the classic case, the correction is done late or inconsistently to the point the horse does not understand what it is for.

I do correct anticipation. If my horse anticipates, I would immediately think I made a boo boo in the training or the execution, and he does not understand... I will usually explain in more detail and prepare better. And correction needs to be done sooner than later. If the correction is poorly done and timed, you may form the opinion "oh correction doesn't work on my horse because he is xyz"... and that is not because correction itself is a bad idea, as it is simply done poorly.

Doing something else instead of a correction, be careful what you're trying to achieve. Are you trying to simply distract the horse, or trying to prepare the horse better? For the former, the horse will become ever more defensive about correction, and the rider ever more afraid of correcting the horse. The later is all about explaining something better and prepare a horse better.

[sid]

My Reality...great reply. Perfectly articulated.

[ccoronios]

"Just say 'canter'. Boom. Horse canters. As one trainer said, 'You're not doing a pre flight check on a fighter jet, just CANTER!'

Most people, if you tell them that, they say, 'But I'm not doing anything like that!' And the answer is...ooooooh yes you are, and the proof is the very behavior you're griping about.....LOL. Ah, dressage."


Aaahhh - VIDEO!!!! Have someone video you riding - with a decent camera, not their damn cell phone - zoomed in on you & horse - or even just make a visual circle with your seat the center and get as tight as possible. You're not looking for the way the horse goes (lofty trot stuff) - you're wanting to see what YOU'RE doing. Get it from side, from 3/4 front, from front, from back. And then STUDY the video - preferably even with your trainer. Video is the best educational tool there is for riders. Very few WANT to do things incorrectly - we just don't realize we ARE. When you can SEE what you're doing, it makes all the difference.

Good luck.
Carol

[Happy Feet]

I didn't read all the responses. So forgive me if this has been said. I saw some good responses. I do not agree with thinking about over achieving as disobedience. They are just more sensitive. I think the people who said don't fiddle and fuss and adjust and half halt, just canter - are very right. Walk canter isn't that difficult, just canter.
A little story: I once had a lovely older over achiever FEI horse come to me. We started working on tempi's only they were consistantly not on my leg aids, usually earlier than when I had wanted. After carefully analyzing what was going on I decided he wasn't listening to my leg aids at all but my seat aid! Hello! Wow after I worked on really changing the canter lead, from only (or mostly) from my seat, I got them exactly when I wanted them.
The horses that usually are over achievers, (this was said before) are usually a little more sensitive, quick learners ect. You might be giving signals that you didn't really realize you were. He may think x and y mean canter when you are thinking its xyz. He's already one maybe even two steps ahead of you. First I would analyze how you prepare (do less) and ask for every movement but specifically canter. Then see if adjusting yourself gets a better response. If not, then I would politely and patiently bring him back to walk or trot, do some more work in that gait, and ask him for canter. Also, occassionally don't canter! Don't fight, don't punish, but don't reward. Also make praise when he is doing well. Most likely he is a horse who responds better to praise than punishment (most over achievers do!) so make it fun and playful!

edited to add: One helpful tip for unwanted canter - SHOULDER-IN until they don't want to canter anymore! takes out the fight of asking for a downward transition! Make more and more steep until he has to trot....

I would also like to say there is a difference from overachievers, and horse who anticipate out of tension and fear. My reality made a very good point about addressing horses who are fearful, or very tense. But there are some who aren't tense,a nd afraid, but loves to work, and try alittle harder than your average horse to do what he thinks is being asked of him. True over achievers are wonderful and shouldn't be punished. Tense horses who anticipate out of fear of confusion are very different, Myreality wrote very well on how to deal with those horses....

[Dressage Art]

"Just say 'canter'. Boom. Horse canters. As one trainer said, 'You're not doing a pre flight check on a fighter jet, just CANTER!'I completely disagree with that statement. It is ALL about the quality of the trot and preparation before the transition, then asking for the canter just becomes another stride.

One helpful tip for unwanted canter - SHOULDER-IN until they don't want to canter anymore! takes out the fight of asking for a downward transition! Make more and more steep until he has to trot....Might work on the green horse, but my mare can do shoulder-in at canter for a very long time... we actually do it as exercise: shoulder-in on one long side and then hunches-in on another long side... as long as a horse accepts more weight on his hind end, shoulder-in at canter is not difficult for a horse to do. And eventually it's all about how rider can control both shoulders and hind end of his horse.

What a strange thread... I feel like somebody re-invented a "better" wheel and didn't tell me about it... I feel like we are talking about a different discipline, not dressage. B/c several of proven, classical dressage believes/training methods are been dismissed, ridiculed already and it keeps on coming... it just doesn't make sense...

[mbm]

But DA - some of us are saying what our (classical/traditional) trainers instruct. maybe it is different than what you are learning, but that doesn't make it "not classical"

i can tell you that almost every trainer i have met from the german system will say the same thing - if a (young/green) horse breaks into canter - let thenm canter and work on the quality of the canter before asking the horse to transition down. that is standard DRESSAGE training.

[Happy Feet]

i can tell you that almost every trainer i have met from the german system will say the same thing - if a (young/green) horse breaks into canter - let thenm canter and work on the quality of the canter before asking the horse to transition down. that is standard DRESSAGE training.

That would depend on why the horse cantered. If he cantered from anticipation, and it is begun to be a habit, working in the canter isn't going to solve the problem. If the young/green horse breaks into canter because, it would rather canter than step all the way through, or spooks, or mis understands an aid, yes, continuing the canter would be the best solution...

Might work on the green horse, but my mare can do shoulder-in at canter for a very long time... we actually do it as exercise: shoulder-in on one long side and then hunches-in on another long side... as long as a horse accepts more weight on his hind end, shoulder-in at canter is not difficult for a horse to do. And eventually it's all about how rider can control both shoulders and hind end of his horse.

Then you aren't making the shoulder-in steep enough. I do this even with well established FEI horse that regularly go in shoulder-fore/shoulder-in on circles, down long sides etc. If you bring those shoulders in enough they will trot.

[meupatdoes]

According to the USEF rules, shoulder-in is 33 degrees. Shoulder-for is anything less than 33 degrees. Anything more than 33 degrees is a work on 4 tracks.

Oh for Christ's sake.

I think the overall meaning of her suggestion was pretty clear, regardless whether somebody is riding EXACTLY 33 degrees and not 32 degrees or 33 1/3 degrees.

So if she rephrases to appease you and instead of saying, "SHOULDER-IN until they don't want to canter anymore! takes out the fight of asking for a downward transition! Make more and more steep until he has to trot...." she says "WORK ON FOUR TRACKS until they don't want to canter anymore! takes out the fight of asking for a downward transition! Make more and more steep until he has to trot....", then what is your reaction?

Does that make all the difference?

ETA: Evidently I hit quote before DA edited. No, I did not add words to the quote. What's quoted is the original wording. In case anyone is wondering.

ETA2: And now, it seems DA has deleted her post entirely.

[mbm]

That would depend on why the horse cantered. If he cantered from anticipation, and it is begun to be a habit, working in the canter isn't going to solve the problem.

maybe not solve the problem, but as far as i understnad the concept, the idea is to allow the horse to balance etc so that when you ask it to come back down to trot (or walk) they will be able to respond in a balanced manner.

in other words - dont make the work harder than it needs to be and give the horse the benefit of the doubt.

(of course this is just "in general" and each horse is different)

[meupatdoes]

maybe not solve the problem, but as far as i understnad the concept, the idea is to allow the horse to balance etc so that when you ask it to come back down to trot (or walk) they will be able to respond in a balanced manner.

in other words - dont make the work harder than it needs to be and give the horse the benefit of the doubt.

(of course this is just "in general" and each horse is different)

I think it would also be helpful to discuss exactly what timing people are discussing here. I mean, it is possible to pull a horse out of an undesired canter transition half a stride in; it is possible to do two or three strides and then whoa, and it is possible to say, "Well ok then, let's canter around."
I could see uses for all three responses, depending on the situation, and I think timing and feel makes the difference.

Another question I have is, in using the shoulder in (or WORK ON FOUR TRACKS in case it makes a difference) to encourage a downward transition by making the canter harder ...is that breaking gait because the horse decides, "Ugh, this canter's too much work, ima trot now," or is that a subtle correction along the lines of, "If you choose to canter the canter will swiftly get difficult?" Again I think timing and feel would make the vast majority of the difference, and I think it's interesting to think about.

[mbm]

i think it all "depends" .... if the horse is confused and trying to answer a question , then i think being very clear and breaking things down will help. and of course it depends on the horse if they need half a circle or more/less to get in balance working correctly etc so they can respond correctly to the aids (and maybe there is a difference in quality of canter expected between dressage and jumpers/hunters?)



if the horse is avoiding using it hind legs then that is different , altho i still don't see how pulling a horse down to a lower gait in an unbalanced manner would help.

i guess it is all about feel/timing ...... like all riding :)

[Happy Feet]

I think it would also be helpful to discuss exactly what timing people are discussing here. I mean, it is possible to pull a horse out of an undesired canter transition half a stride in; it is possible to do two or three strides and then whoa, and it is possible to say, "Well ok then, let's canter around."
I could see uses for all three responses, depending on the situation, and I think timing and feel makes the difference.

Another question I have is, in using the shoulder in (or WORK ON FOUR TRACKS in case it makes a difference) to encourage a downward transition by making the canter harder ...is that breaking gait because the horse decides, "Ugh, this canter's too much work, ima trot now," or is that a subtle correction along the lines of, "If you choose to canter the canter will swiftly get difficult?" Again I think timing and feel would make the vast majority of the difference, and I think it's interesting to think about.

IT TOTALLY depends on why the horse cantered in the first place! I thought this thread was about a horse who canters without being asked (or without the rider knowingly asking) on a regular basis. If you are working on establishing connection/throughness/stepping through in teh trot an dthe horse canters, the question is still the same no matter what gait. Sometimes, that leads to horses just cantering when asked to step more through, sometimes, to let them canter isn't going to make them understand teh trot, and it might be agood idea to quickly balance the canter, make a nice downward transition and continue to ask the horse to step through in the TROT. Sometimes horses, canter because they spook, in that case, it would totally depend on what I was asking for before the spook, maybe it was about time to canter anyway.... Maybe I want to go back to the trot etc. I guess my point is the answer would totally depend on what the circumstances where at the time. Saying to bring the horse back to trot, isn't using the german system is very... well short sighted, and shows lack of a depth of knowledge. (I am refering to an earlier comment NOT your above quote meupatdoes!!!) Meupatdoes hits the nail on the head!
I do the work on four tracks ( I knew as I typed the shoulder-in I was gonna hear the 3 track verses 4 track thing.. :> Oh well!) to avoid pulling back. Sometimes a horse is cantering in order to escape from hard work at the trot. At that point the exercise is to make the horse want to trot without the rider having to make a fuss - or pull back. Its great for horses that liek to get flustered, and fight, or very hot and forward horses. I don't ever want a horse to fall into the trot... But with that being said, the point isn't to make a perfect transition, so if the loses his balance and falls into the trot, just move on, make the trot better and go on... Also don't let the idea of making a good transition downward delay the downward transition, meaning keep the horse through, position the horse on 3 or 4 tracks (whatever it takes) and let the place you ask him to be, make the transition, don't over ride it, don't coddle. Sometimes, when workign on piaffe, a horse canters, if sitting quietly doesn't work, I position the horse on 4 tracks so they want to trot, pulling back at that moment is the worst thing to do. Often when getting a horse better engaged, a horse will canter instead on pushing through at the trot (like mentioned above) you don't want to pull back at that time, the point is for the horse to go forward into the contact, even more - pulling back would defeat what you were after, which is why you MAY want to continue to canter and work the canter, but you can put them on 4 tracks to bring them back to trot, while being able to keep your leg on driving them to the bit, but insisting on the gait you want. Sorry to go on and on, I just keep thinking yet one more way it is a useful exercise!!!

[mbm]

Saying to bring the horse back to trot, isn't using the german system is very... well short sighted, and shows lack of a depth of knowledge. (I am refering to an earlier comment NOT your above quote meupatdoes!!!)

you are referring to my post. i was responding to DA who inferred that asking the horse to continue to canter (ie work the canter) until it is balanced IS NOT CLASSICAL -

my point was - yes it was - since several of the (classical/traditional german system) trainers that i have worked with /know etc have used this method. i did not mean or say that returning to trot is not German!

further my point is all of this is not that one way is the only way - rather, i was presenting alternative options since the OP sounded like me, i thought i would give her things that worked for me.

as in all things related to horses tho - it all depends.

(which i have also said several times)

i really liked what another poster said - if we humans have such a hard time understanding each other how much more difficult is it for the horse to understand us (especially while we are learning) ? so, best to give the horse the benefit of the doubt - clarify aids/timing, get the horse to a place where he can answer correctly and try again.

[Dressage Art]

i was responding to DA who inferred that asking the horse to continue to canter (ie work the canter) until it is balanced IS NOT CLASSICAL I never said that. You must have been talking with somebody else.

[meupatdoes]

I never said that. You must have been talking with somebody else.

So what exactly are you trying to say?

I got the distinct impression from your earlier posts that you disagreed with the idea of continuing in the canter if a horse has volunteered an unsolicited canter transition. It seemed you were suggesting that the undesired transition ought to be corrected/disciplined promptly and the horse should be brought back to the trot.

Then you expressed amazement that people in this thread were dismissing several proven classical/dressage training principles.

Now you are saying that you didn't say that allowing a horse to continue in the canter would be a violation of classical principle.

So what are you trying to say?

What classical training principles do you see being "ridiculed"?

And what classical approach would you suggest riders take?

[mbm]

What a strange thread... I feel like somebody re-invented a "better" wheel and didn't tell me about it... I feel like we are talking about a different discipline, not dressage. B/c several of proven, classical dressage believes/training methods are been dismissed, ridiculed already and it keeps on coming... it just doesn't make sense...



i took from the above post that you did not feel that the methods being discussed qualified for "classical training methods" hence my comments.

[Dressage Art]

it seems DA has deleted her post entirely.If you are not interested in distinction between shoulder-for, shoulder-in and a work on 4 tracks, and correct explanation angrys you, I would rather not post it.

[meupatdoes]

If you are not interested in distinction between shoulder-for, shoulder-in and a work on 4 tracks, and correct explanation angrys you, I would rather not post it.

The post had nothing to do with being concerned about the distinction. It was pretty clear that she was talking about work on four tracks, and had mistakenly typed shoulder-in instead.

And again, my question was, if she had typed WORK ON FOUR TRACKS -which is clearly what she meant- instead of SHOULDER IN (emphasis hers), would you agree or disagree with her method?

Griping about an incorrectly placed word when we all know what she really means serves nothing toward the discussion of the overall concept.

Similarly, I know what you mean when you type "shoulder-for" even though the correct spelling is shoulder-fore, so I'm not sitting here yammering about, "What on EARTH is shoulder-for? Some new move we've never heard of? Is that 28 degrees or something because you only typed part of the word?"

AND, you STILL won't say what you ARE trying to get across.
What are these classical concepts you feel are being "ridiculed"?
What classical concepts do you think people should be using instead of what they are discussing here?
What could somebody type in that would make you say, "YES! FINALLY! I agree totally!"

Is there even anything somebody could type in that you would agree with? Because it seems your only contribution here is to disagree with everything, even if you have to deliberately misquote people or pretend their whole post makes no sense because they mis-used one word (even though all of the other words made complete sense).

[mbm]

for a green horse or a weak horse - shoulder-In /shoulder-fore type movement (to the degree needed) will keep a horse in trot.

It is only with horses that can really carry on the o/s hind that would require more degrees of bringing the shoulders in.

so i dont think the usage of the word "shoulder-in" was incorrect..... just maybe a qualifier could be added to say that bring the shoulders in as far as needed to disallow the horse going into canter.

ETA: in the defense of DA - English is her second language so i think at times it is a language issue....

[Dressage Art]

AND, you STILL won't say what you ARE trying to get across.
Oh, dear... how can I say it... in the plain English... as pleasurable as this conversation has been already... try to yell and jump on me even harder, may be that will MAKE me want to answer your questions?

Seriously, you seem to know all of the answers, and seem like you are doing all the right things, as I said before, just keep on doing what you are doing if it works for you. No need to listen or argue with what works for others, just b/c you don't agree with it.

[JackSprats Mom]

I'm pretty sure I just watched video of a Steffen Peters clinic on YouTube where he did this very thing - they were working on trot circles, and the horse offered up a canter. The rider started to pull him back but Steffen basically said no, go, make it a good canter - they cantered around the arena once or twice and then did a downward transition into a nice trot and started the circles again.

I tried this the other day and it worked well and I think may be the way to go with this guy.

Let me clarify, this is not a horse who is trying to escape correct work by going into canter so thats no a problem. I think he's anticipating probably because he's too sensitive to me and I'm confusing him, obviously something I need to work on.

Thanks to those that gave me some good suggestions though.


(and yes, he does get out of the arena, his 'side job' is endurance)

[MyReality]

You are mixing many techniques up then no wonder why the horse is confused because the human is.

First thing: you communicate your expectation to the horse. If you never tell it to the horse, how does the horse knows how to behave? What good does it do, if he doesn't even cross his mind he has to? No wonder why he is upset about correction! Because that poor horse doesn't know a consistent expectation, and next thing you know he is told he is wrong or he is given some very diluted correction or very strong correction, depending on how scared or tired or frustrated the rider feels.

Second thing: however the expectation and margin of error is different for different horse, different situation and level of maturity. For instance, a horse who is just learning to transition from canter to trot, he is allowed the whole half circle to go back to trot.

Third thing: you MUST set the horse up for success. I am talking training techniques and strategies and preparation. This mean your position cannot disturb him, and you are able to help him. This mean you must try to understand what the problem is instead of just seeing it as a personality issue... is it strength? is he not understanding half halt? am I pulling on the inside rein? etc. How much space does a horse need to come back, how strong, how to position the horse. Some horses need to canter shorter distance before coming back, some horses need to canter a little longer... etc etc.

Fourth thing: about correction. Correction is not about causing discomfort for the horse. However, the rider and horse must accept that learning a new thing is a uncomfortable. Correction is mostly about explaining. For instance, a hh followed by a release the first instance the horse increase. (but the problem is people don't want to give. They keep holding on. Also people don't explain to the horse, which leg, which side to flex... they close all the doors without leaving one open! and people don't hh from seat and core first, their hands so fast! Then they complain the horse doesn't listen to hh, etc etc). A correction could be straightening, a correction could be increasing, a correction could be transition up or down, a correction could be positioning the horse, correction could be passive, could be active, could be whip... etc etc. Not know how to correct, is not the same as correction is useless.

Fifth thing: about timing. There is the correct timing of the technical execution of the request... and there is timing for correction. For instance when asking for trot, technically you should ask when first or second beat. Therefore if you know the canter is not good quality, you can suspect he could not perform a downward, then yes you do improve the canter first. It does not contradict anything I say above, because you haven't ask for the trot yet! You see you need to have that kind of insight and feel! On the same token, if you feel the trot is very poor quality, or downward from trot is very bad, don't canter! It probably will be too messy!

You see when Steffen Peters tell the student "keep cantering", that's because the horse is learning how to be forward and sharp, he offers to canter. Of course don't stop him as the horse would think "you told me to go, now I am not allowed to go!". One thing at a time: you want a horse to be react sharply to the leg, he is allowed to go. This is not the same as telling the horse to stop, and he won't stop, and you go "ok ok, fine you may keep cantering if you don't feel like listening to me". They are totally different concepts, applied to different situation. If you mix the ideas up, you will make the horse ever more confused.

Regarding timing for correction: if he TRIES, start the release "sequence": give, rebalance, give, rebalance.. as long as he keeps trying and until he completes the transition and return to a good rhythm. But you must follow through with a request, and be able to use a whole bunch of tools in your tool box quickly if he evade: e.g. first I would hold him in the seat and core to shorten the stride and bring him UP (majority of horses will be trotting as it is very hard work to canter like that)... doesn't work, I sit deeper outside seatbone and hold outside connection to make him straight (but this depends which side he is falling in/out)... doesn't work, I would lean back and sink the weight into the saddle, really resisting against him... doesn't work, I would start adding outside flexion and steer him into counter canter.... doesn't work, sorry I am steering you into a wall... doesn't work, sorry I am doing pully rein/one rein stop. Once he stops, even if it is super messy, immediately give, then rebalance so he doesn't get frightened.

Honestly the worse I have ever done is steer a horse into counter canter.

What if he canters immediately again? If usually means he is tense about the downward transition, or the rider is not GIVING fast enough (or the give is granted without response). You corrct the same again... this time really focus on the rebalancing after and giving. If he doesn't canter immediately again, work on the trot a little bit, big praise... work on downward to walk a little bit, big praise... don't canter again that day.

Sorry for the long post. I am sure I missed something. But I just want to explain there are many concepts here. You need to develop the appreciation for the dynamics here.

[mbm]

myreality - excellent post.

[Dressage Art]

You are mixing many techniques up then no wonder why the horse is confused because the human is. First thing: you communicate your expectation to the horse. If you never tell it to the horse, how does the horse knows how to behave? What good does it do, if he doesn't even cross his mind he has to? No wonder why he is upset about correction! Because that poor horse doesn't know a consistent expectation, and next thing you know he is told he is wrong or he is given some very diluted correction or very strong correction, depending on how scared or tired or frustrated the rider feels
ditto
Fourth thing: about correction. Correction is not about causing discomfort for the horse. Correction is mostly about explaining....Not know how to correct, is not the same as correction is useless. YES!!! I think I tried to explain that one already a couple of times, but with no success. Correction is NOT the same as punishment.

You see when Steffen Peters tell the student "keep cantering", that's because the horse is learning how to be forward and sharp, he offers to canter. Of course don't stop him as the horse would think "you told me to go, now I am not allowed to go!". One thing at a time: you want a horse to be react sharply to the leg, he is allowed to go. This is not the same as telling the horse to stop, and he won't stop, and you go "ok ok, fine you may keep cantering if you don't feel like listening to me". They are totally different concepts, applied to different situation. If you mix the ideas up, you will make the horse ever more confused.BINGO!!!

.... I try to avoid the one rein stops since I saw horse's mouth ripped open from them (my mare with other rider). I like counter canter and my mare can counter canter on a 15m circle. I also like 4 tracks - both CC and 4tracks are very useful exercisers with very high difficulty and horse should be highly rewarded for doing them. So I don't want to use them as correction, since I praise my mare a LOT when we do them since I want my horse have a good feeling, pride about both of them. I would do a small circle and make it smaller and smaller if horse doesn't stop. Then calmly walk and do a rein back, several times to make him think "wait for me".

Sorry for the long post. I am sure I missed something. But I just want to explain there are many concepts here. You need to develop the appreciation for the dynamics here. No, it's good, I think at times we need to explain every little single thing; otherwise the blanks get filled with misunderstanding

[slc2]

It's just not so cut and dried. If the horse picks up the canter to avoid using himself at the trot, it's a different situatoin than if he goes into a canter when the rider is trying to work on forward. The trainer has to understand the situation; the response may be very different depending on that.