explain suspension to me -thanks

[D_BaldStockings]

I obviously need to get with the language, here, so if you have time to help it is appreciated.

What does suspension mean -in dressage? Are you considering the hoof time off the ground during the stride, the springing off the ground or 'bounce' for lack of a better term which lifts and lowers the horse and rider in a gait or ...?

And when described, what desirable factor of rideability is it proof of?

Thank you

[RogersChapelFarm]

Suspension
The moment or phase of the trot or canter in which the horse has no feet on the ground.



In my opinion....the more there is the more likely it's hard to ride...but some horses are just more comfortable than others and the more they lift their back correctly with training the easier the suspension is to sit.

[joiedevie99]

Rideability means its not exclusively a pro's horse, i.e. it isn't so sensitive, hot, finicky, quirky, or otherwise hard to get along with that an average person couldn't ride it. It doesn't require any warnings prior to putting an amateur with the appropriate riding experience up.

Some people also use it to mean trainability.

[slc2]

Suspension is the period of time in the trot or canter when all four feet are completely clear of the ground. There cannot be suspension in the walk. Due to the pattern of footfalls there is always at least one foot on the ground at any point of the walk.

The mistake that most people make, is that they assume that since a horse picks his feet up high, he has suspension. Even if a horse trots with his knees up in his eyeballs, and the other pair of his legs are still on the ground, he has no suspension. None of the videos you linked to showed suspension in the trot.

Suspension is only present when all four feet are clear of the ground. There is only one brief point in the trot or canter where suspension is possible; and how long that moment lasts is the measure of how much 'suspension' a horse has.

The joints and muscles of the hind legs and shoulders act like a spring, propelling the horse up and forward. His legs push his body up in the air. It is far harder to ride a horse with suspension and is not desirable in most kinds of riding. It is in dressage. A horse either has or hasn't got suspension naturally. It is inherited. To have it he must have correct conformation that allows it and be sound, but horses inherit gaits and suspension is inherited. It can sometimes be improved by a very skilled trainer, but nature will still limit how much it can be improved.

It can also be taken away by poor training, in which the horse is ridden in a 'headset' and not working properly through the back and hind quarter - riding horses in draw reins and other devices tends to flatten the gait and take away suspension. Too long or too short reins can harm suspension, as can the lack of ability to half halt and balance the horse, or a lack of forward (leg) aids.

Not all bouncing up in the air is actually suspension. Some bouncing, such as the so -called 'Pasture Passage', is tension and stiffness - the joints are straight and the back is hollowed out downward.

Suspension comes when all the joints and muscles are very loose and operate very freely, with the back lifted and the hind quarters and hind legs under the horse, acting as springs.

Natural suspension can be developed through good training. It allows a horse to perform all the advanced dressage work to a better standard, with less stress on his body. It scores higher, and it makes for better quality work and less wear and tear on the animal.

[bort84]

Suspension is technically what is posted above; you can maybe think of it as "hang time" - so, you know those "sewing machine" moving horses you will sometimes see do reasonably well in saddle seat? Some people call them "trappy." Well, the exact opposite of that = )

At the trot, it's sort of up - hang - then down, not just up then down - air time. There are a lot of saddlebreds that move like this naturally, and I always prefer some suspension and hang time in my saddle seat mounts, but it's not necessary to win in saddle seat. In dressage, it really makes the difference.

So, in saddle seat, a good mover has to have action (lots of motion). In dressage, you really want to see suspension. Again, as a saddle seat convert, I had to retrain my eye. I always liked suspension, but I also liked motion, haha. Now I also think suspension is lovely even without extreme action. The suspension tends to make one a really pretty mover for dressage (I honestly like it in all horses) in the same way that a lot of action makes one desirable in saddle seat. Let's see, that feeling of hang time you get in a slow-mo video, you want to get a little bit of that feeling in a real-time video to see good suspension.

Anyway, start watching some dressage videos. Look at some of the warmblood stallion approval videos. Also, look at some dressage prospects that are turned free in their sales video. The more you see, the more you'll just start to develop an eye for what's "right" and for what you like.

Not sure if this is making any sense, slc's post is good for clarification = )

[slc2]

"what desirable factor of rideability is it proof of"

Uh...

I don't get the question, but the way it's written suggests that there is a different thought process about how horses are trained and how they progress, than I am familiar with.

Suspension isn't desired or developed in progressing dressage horses to make it easier to ride them. In fact the rippling, lifting and swinging of the back is much harder to ride than a horse that is a 'leg mover' and just moves his legs. The 'leg mover' keeps his back flat without any lifting of his body or rippling of his back muscles, and is like riding a big couch.

The idea of progression up the levels in dressage is that the horse becomes more and more of an athlete, using his body and all its joints and muscles over a larger and larger range of motion, more and more powerfully, as springs that allow him to develop in to more and more of an athlete. This means the rider has to learn to handle increasing motion of the horse's back and lifting of his body. The 'springs' become more and more powerful and transmit more motion to the rider.

"Rideability", in common dressage parlance, refers to a horse being cooperative and safe, and responding easily to the rider's leg, seat and hand. There is a more technical meaning, which refers to how 'permeable' (the german word means basically, 'letting-throughness', letting the aids affect the muscles) and flexible the horse's body is and how easily it is influenced by specific actions of the leg, seat, hand.

Suspension is not a proof of rideability in the horse.

It is a proof that the natural ability of the horse has been preserved and developed. To one person, the increased motion of suspension is 'harder to ride'. It requires more flexibility and strength of the rider to maintain his position properly.

I'm not sure of what bort is saying about saddlebreds commonly having so much suspension. I don't think that's really true.

[Equibrit]

Air time ! Definitely not a proof of rideability, and can make riding more difficult. It is more a proof of good natural gaits.

[D_BaldStockings]

Hmmm, this is quite fascinating.

I have a great fondness for the ODG like Podhajsky and Seunig, and gathered from those that the horse became more rideable as it progressed, both in submissiveness and correctly developed athleticism, and that it was easier to sit a swinging back than a tense one as the horses joints and musculature absorbed the concussion rather than transmitting it to the rider; and that the flexibility and full range of motion available and willingly offered by an upper level horse also translated into expressive gaits, one component of which is suspension.

I gathered that suspension meant increased 'air time' or foot flight time (all 4 feet off the ground) as opposed to ground time. Now obiously a horse in piaffe has less stride length than in an extended trot, but can you find much suspension in a piaffe? Granted there are many deeply flexing horses in correct piaffe...There is precious little air time between groundings compared to most extended trots?

I am seeing a lot of flex in dressage, but am having a hard time seeing suspension vs. bounce.

Thanks,

[D_BaldStockings]

Maybe I should be asking if suspension must accompany the up-down body movement I see often, as a Hunter type has lots of air time in it's long strides but little to no bounce. And many would say no suspension.

Which is why I'm struggling with the language...

[RogersChapelFarm]

There is no suspension in piaffe...see this report and others for details
http://cvm.msu.edu/research/research-centers/mcphail-equine-performance-center/publications/dressage-today/the-mcphail-chair-report-3


and see number 2 for the basics of suspension

[slc2]

--The horse becomes more rideable as one advances in the same way that a Ferrari sports car is 'easier' to drive than a regular car.

--The Ferrari is nimble, quick to turn. It is light to turn, with little effort.

--And it has so much power, that you have to figure out how to handle all that power, or you will go off the road and the last thing you see before you hit the ditch is the back of the car where the front of it is supposed to be.

--A trained dressage horse becomes 'easier' to ride as he learns more subtle signals, and responds to lighter, more subtle leg, rein and seat aids. He doesn't lose his balance like an untrained horse. He can be lighter in the front, so that he is more nimble to turn and manouver.

--A trained dressage horse becomes 'harder' to ride for the rider who isn't accustomed to 'handling' so much motion and activity and power. He gets tossed around in the saddle like a sack of potatoes, and he can't keep his hands or legs from flopping around as there is so much energy transmitted to the saddle by the power of the horse's movement.

--It is not 'easy' to ride a horse that has natural talent and has been correctly developed into an elite athlete, which means stretching each muscle and joint to its maximum extension and flexing it to its maximum flex/weight bearing position. Podhajsky as well as any of those other guys would say the same.

--An 'advanced horse' can be of two types. It can shuffle along, barely swinging his back and barely bending his joints. This is not the top quality. It is called 'doing tricks'. It fools most people. A fully trained, properly developed horse is a very, very different picture. He is like watching a world class ice skater or gymnast - he uses his entire body to the maximum.

--Piaffe, because of its mechanics has no suspension - that requires swinging forward, the piaffe is on the spot or close to it. But it should still give the rider the feeling that the horse is active and freely using its joints.

--Most hunters, most saddleseat horses, have very little suspension. Both because horses are not ridden in a way that would preserve or develop suspension, but also because the breeds mostly used do not have it. That is changing some as warmbloods start getting used in the hunter ring, but the warmbloods in the hunter ring usually have flat, ground sweeping movement with little suspension.

--What suspension most hunters have is in 'thrusting power' that pushes them forward, not up. Upward gaits are not desirable for hunters, nor do they make any sense given the original use of the horse. Saddle seat horses are supposed to have a very soft back that doesn't push the rider out of the saddle. Suspension, and what it entails, the motion of the back, isn't desirable there either.

--The modified pacing gaits were developed and refined precisely to fulfill the goals of saddle seat riding (originally)...to be comfortable to ride. THe pacing and related gaits are comfortable because of how the back moves (ie, does not move).

"I gathered that suspension meant increased 'air time' or foot flight time (all 4 feet off the ground) as opposed to ground time. Now obiously a horse in piaffe has less stride length than in an extended trot, but can you find much suspension in a piaffe?

--None.

Granted there are many deeply flexing horses in correct piaffe...There is precious little air time between groundings compared to most extended trots?

--What does 'deeply flexing' mean - are you referring to how the joints of the hind legs bend and the horse sits a little down behind? There are two kinds of piaffe - well, more than that but basically. Some horses piaffe 'standing up' and some piaffe 'sitting down'. There are pros and cons to each type of piaffe. The 'standing up' piaffe often has much better scores for the transitions in and out of piaffe (how the horse goes in and out of piaffe is scored separately), but the 'sitting down' piaffe, with the haunches slightly lowered, but the forelegs still perpendicular to the ground, can get a slightly higher score, under the right conditions.

I am seeing a lot of flex in dressage, but am having a hard time seeing suspension vs. bounce.
"

--It is difficult to see - most people don't see suspension. They see the horse moving its legs, and think that is suspension. They see the knees and hocks lifting and think that is suspension.

--Some horses have a lot of 'thrusting power' - they can push themselves across the ground. They may get some air time, but in dressage, 'thrusting power' is what is developed at the lower levels, and after that there is something else that develops, 'carrying power', which lifts the horse up rather than propells him foward, across the ground.

--'Bounce', of the rider or the horse?

--The movement of a horse might be described as 'bouncy' for two reasons. One, because the horse has a lot of activity, is really swinging in the back and using all the joints of his shoulder, hip, and is a 'body mover', not a 'leg mover'.

--He ALSO could be described as 'bouncy' because he moves stiffly, without using his joints like springs - he drops his hind legs stiffly to the ground without bending them, jarring the rider.

--When a horse isn't correct, when he holding his neck in short and hiding behind the bit, not using his back correctly, not using his hind legs correctly, his gait may feel 'bouncy', but to me, it feels more 'jarring' - the amount of movement one feels as a rider may be similar, but the quality of the motion the rider feels is very, very different.

--Easy to ride, hard to ride? Correct advanced horses are 'hard' to ride because they have so much motion and power. They are 'easy' to ride because the quality of that motion is fluid, round, springy, rather than jarring, stiff and choppy.

[D_BaldStockings]

Thank you, that does clarify a few points for me. I can see I would have trouble aspiring to produce a horse that would be so expressive/ upward thrust type suspension that it would be harder to ride.

slc2 -BTW you may want to adjust your 1 hoof on the ground at all times in walk, I believe you may have meant possibly 2 in a horse with a huge overstride, though 3 is still correct?

At what point does a walk become lateral? is this a rhythm irregularity 1-2, 3-4 rather than the correct 1-2-3-4 or are you speaking of too little time the hoof is grounded, so the hind lifts off before the front grounds?

[slc2]

--I didn't say the horse had one foot on the ground in the walk, i said it has at least one foot on the ground at all times in the walk, as in if there is even one foot on the ground, suspension is not there.

"At what point does a walk become lateral? is this a rhythm irregularity 1-2, 3-4 rather than the correct 1-2-3-4 or are you speaking of too little time the hoof is grounded, so the hind lifts off before the front grounds? "

--It depends on how good an eye the person has, but it doesn't have to get to the point where it is actually pacing, it is called 'lateral' quite a ways before it is actually pacing. There are a number of ways it happens, some very big horses just get lateral because they are stiff and a little lazy, others get pacey because they are getting tense and nervous, the back and hind legs get tight. Still others do so simply because they are made so that when the walk is collected they start to pace, somewhat innate but training helps to correct it.

--Walks start to be called lateral when they start to creep toward a pace-like gait. The 4 beats of the walk creep away from 4 evenly spaced in time beats. Depending on how skilled the person is at seeing and hearing when the rhythm changes, they will call the walk 'becoming lateral'. Some people can spot a very slight change, other people can't. The legs on one side, start to more and more swing forward together at the same time.

--But this is just one small part of the how the walk is judged, and it is way, way over-emphasized, often to the exclusion of every other quality the walk needs to have, simply because it's easy to see.

[merrygoround]

A horse with suspension, if ridden in collection is actually easier to sit, because he is carrying himself. Initially, they are a lot more work to ride,until they get it. But maybe it only seems that way because when you are riding and training those horses, you are already pretty fit. :D Or else!

[ideayoda]

Suspension is produced by folding of the hindlegs which produced thrust. The greater thrust (using the ground as a trampoline because of folding hindlegs) combines with a bascule of the body (lifted chest/out to bridle) the more airtime. But a good quality of suspension also allows an easier place to sit. Thrust released more forward in action can produce longer/flatter strides=extension. Thrust released upwards produces higher/shorter strides=collection, the horse appears to be up/open. Suspension can also be produced by speed, but then the horse looses its balance (it at best is horizontal in balance, but taken to an extreme becomes downhill). In canter the horse appears to be cantering up a hill. Elastic release in the joints is what allows the horse to be easy to sit, a lifted back (from tension) does not by itself guarantee comfort.

As far as the piaffe, one has to study piaffes which everyone agrees are optimal to see whether it has suspension. That said, suspension as it was once written about for piaffe was at the apex of the movement.

[doccer]

If it's in a sale ad - it means 'no forward movement' :D lol

[D_BaldStockings]

In viewing winning UL dressage videos of today I am seeing extended gaits that to my eyes lack thrust/stride length/2nd half of their stride?
Lots of forward reach beneath, and bounding off vertical, but no pushing in the later part of the grounding phase stretching into the offering hand.

Are displaying flashy suspended gaits as the epitome of vertically developed athleticism more important than developing a horse with full extension ability as well?

I realize there are pendulum swings in every discipline, just curious where dressage is today.
Thanks

[slc2]

One may come seeking knowledge.....

[D_BaldStockings]

slc2

I am certainly glad to hear that!

I intend to continue to learn all my life.

One may also see the Emperor has lost his clothes yet the populace remain silent - perhaps one needs glasses to see the clothes, or perhaps they are not there.

[SmartAlex]

... Saddle seat horses are supposed to have a very soft back that doesn't push the rider out of the saddle. Suspension, and what it entails, the motion of the back, isn't desirable there either.


I've often thought I've learned more about Saddle Seat (my life long trained seat) from reading and contemplating the dressage forums view on the discipline than I've ever learned through discussions with Saddle Seat riders/trainers...

Tell me this, a horse whose front leg extension ends a foot (or feet) above the ground, not necessarily with the dreaded toe flick, is that a component of suspension, or would that fall under different terminology? That is the most common type of "hang time" I'm familiar with from riding ASBs ( and some Arabs although the Arab style is much flatter and skimming). I realise that is can be seen without any corresponding rear hang time, and often with a tense back. Does it fall under false or showy movement or is it desireable if the horse is also supple and moving through the back?

[FriesianX]

One minor detail I'd like to point out that may be slightly off topic. Suspension, the moment when all feet are off the ground in the trot or canter, is not scored anywhere in the dressage test! The gaits are assessed for purity and regularity, scope, freedom. The Impulsion is assessed based on desire to move forward, elasticity of the steps, suppleness of the back, engagement of the hindquarters.

Suspension is a byproduct of these factors, but suspension by itself can also be a problem. For example, the horse who hesitates to move forward, thus develops a passagy (overly suspended and slow and not moving forward sufficiently) trot...

Engagement and thrust are closely related, as thrust comes out of engagement (which is the flexing of the grounded joints, ie the coiling of the spring).

Seldom will you see a judge comment on suspension, unless they are commenting on something such as the restriction of the gaits. However, as you move up the levels, the "space" created by suspension gives the horse and rider the time to perform the movements in a quality way. For example, in the half pass, without suspension, there may not be time to develop sufficient bend in the body and crossing in the legs. If you look at the PSG test, the judges are looking for bend, balance, crossing of legs, fluency. Within the trot or canter, you need to see air time to create the balance, leg crossing, and fluency.

So, while the component of suspension is not seen in the test directives, it is necessary to ride quality movements.

[bort84]

Saddle seat horses are supposed to have a very soft back that doesn't push the rider out of the saddle. Suspension, and what it entails, the motion of the back, isn't desirable there either.

That may have been the original purpose of the saddle seat horse back when it was used for a variety of things - cavalry, plantation farmers' mounts, etc. These days, however, I would say that most saddle seat horses have trots that absolutely push you out of the saddle - just try to sit that park trot, yikes! Now, certainly not all of this push is because of the horse's suspension, but there are a lot of top saddle seat horses out there with a lot of suspension. It's not required for success like it is in dressage, but it can add to the picture.

Some have it naturally and may not be encouraged to move that way through training, but many trainers prefer a saddle seat horse with suspension and will encourage its development. I've always preferred saddle seat prospects that have suspension. I like what natural suspension adds to a horse's movement, whether it's a saddle seat prospect or a dressage prospect. Obviously a horse's natural suspension tends to develop a bit differently depending upon the end goal of the rider.

[slc2]

The gait does not push you out of the saddle because of suspension. I have ridden saddle seat, 3 and five gaited. It is the lift of the shoulders and hocks that ripples through the back and throws the rider. I've seen good saddle seat horses trot someone right off their back. Yup. Actually saw a rider trotted off the horse's back. There is PLENTY of thrills to be had in saddle seat style riding. But generally, not due to suspension at all. I'm not saying that's bad. It's DIFFERENT. Saddle seat has a different purpose and goal than dressage. Don't try to make one the other, I feel, enjoy each as they are, respect each. It takes just as much skill and experience to produce a top saddle seat horse.

Very few saddle seat trained horses have suspension. It is not a companion of the training, the gaits, or the breed. They have many good qualities, but an abundance of suspension is not one of them. I've had saddle seat trainers explain to me very clearly that this is the case. Good trainers, not 'bad ones'. This is not a part of the style. Raising the feet from the ground, no matter how high up off the ground, is not suspension. They can have their knees in their eyeballs and not have even one tiny bit of suspension.

And no matter what, they cannot have suspension in the walk. In any form of the walk. Ever. AND....they cannot have impulsion in a gait they cannot have suspension in...LOL. There is no suspension in piaffe. It is a horse lifting its feet, it is not suspension. It is impossible to have suspension in the piaffe. Slow down some video tapes, watch carefully. It is not there.

As I was taught, when the high foot is as high off the ground as it's gonna get...LOOK AT THE OTHER FOOT. If it's on the ground, if it's not CLEAR of the ground, if it's bearing ANY weight, it's NOT suspension. It's lifting the feet, and that's ALL it is.

We have to develop separate, specific definitions for these words. 'Collection' doesn't mean 'really nice', it has a very specific meaning in dressage; it is not just what is described in the rules (which is frankly extremely misleading), it is more than anything a shape of the horse's stride (if traced in the air). Nor does 'engagement' mean 'good' or 'pretty dressage horse', it is something very specific. And 'suspension' is a very specific (and limited) thing. Limited in the sense that it means ONLY time when four feet are clear of the ground, and it means nothing else, just that. No matter how it happens. Getting it in the right way is just another subject. I think the trouble we have is that the definitions we have of these words are too vague and general.

[D_BaldStockings]

'Collection' doesn't mean 'really nice', it has a very specific meaning in dressage; it is not just what is described in the rules (which is frankly extremely misleading), it is more than anything a shape of the horse's stride (if traced in the air). Nor does 'engagement' mean 'good' or 'pretty dressage horse', it is something very specific. And 'suspension' is a very specific (and limited) thing. Limited in the sense that it means ONLY time when four feet are clear of the ground, and it means nothing else, just that." -your last post

The rules are frankly misleading? I don't think so...

...but I'm not here to discuss that. "Suspension is all 4 feet in the air..."

Thank you for that definition.


So my next question is: as the stride length increases (not the tempo, lets not get confused) doesn't the suspension = all 4 feet in the air also have to increase? There is only so much length of step before one must resort to the air after all, legs are only so long.

I personally get the impression that suspension has an additional element to 'air time', that being the 'bounding and elasticity' aspect of it? Since any good TB has plenty of air time but perhaps not the spring of a WB?

So if, heaven forbid, a trotting SB should take a long stride (no matter how high or low the arc drawn by the hoof) and leaves the ground with all 4 feet, would there be suspension displayed?

Note that the highest point of one arc when trotting ALWAYS corresponds to the opposite foot being grounded, no matter what the breed or height of the arc's highest point. I have seen photos and stopped videos, any one can confirm that.

[BaroquePony]

Note that the highest point of one arc when trotting ALWAYS corresponds to the opposite foot being grounded, no matter what the breed or height of the arc's highest point.

Define "one arc". Then, what is this "one arc" relative to?

[Tonja]

Suspension is the moment in the trot or canter when the horse has no feet on the ground. There is also a moment of suspension in the classical piaffe. It is very brief but it is there.

[slc2]

You're wrong about that. There is no suspension in even the best piaffe that was ever done, no matter how 'classical' the trainer. It is not physically possible. The beauty of the piaffe is in how much the hind legs carry.

There was quite a bit of pushback when the research showed this conclusively, but most of us accepted what we saw with our own two eyes repeatedly, and most old timers changed their terminology to conform.

SOME old timers knew it all along, long before slow motion studies proved it. It's a funny thing. Even while everyone else was telling them they were full of it, they just had a better eye, and a better and more specific understanding of the terminology.

One prominent old timer got his feet stuck in the mud, and said 'suspension in piaffe means lifting the feet, not air time, and suspension in every other gait means time with feet clear of the ground'. Guaranteed to confuse the heck out of everyone.

MOST people stopped using the term 'susspension' for piaffe, for clarity so people would understand the term better. Most people some time ago stopped using the term 'impulsion' for 'looking real energetic' and accepted it having a much more specific meaning - energy recycled by half halts that 'winds the spring' of the hind legs (no, horses don't show 'impulsion' when running around lose, they show 'activity', or today, what's called 'A Motor').

Does a standardbred display suspension at the trot. Some of them do, some of them don't. Some of them display a power-driven trot that springs across the ground, but not much at all upwards, and fundamentally, suspension is not the best use of a race animal's energy and is frowned on in race horses which have to maximize the forward motion and not an upward spring so a flatter, reaching stride is preferred. I have a couple training videos on standardbred driving, and it shows about 6 horses total. One has to slow the video down because since the stride is so fast, it is very hard to see whether it has suspension or not. If I recall right, out of the six horses, none of them show any suspension. In other words, they are good race horses.

'Suspension', again, is time clear of the ground. If it's gotten by sliding forward over the ground and kcking the feet out behind, or, for dressage, springing upward AND sliding forward over the ground, it's all 'suspension'. The mechanics of that motion have to be looked at in much more detail to see if the horse really has the ability to be an outstanding dressage horse.

The research on standardbreds shows that the single deciding factor in whether a horse wins(turns in the best times) or not, is how quickly he can bring his hind leg forward. He does not display a dressage style extended trot; it is referred to as a road trot by some people. The horse brings his hind legs forward ahead of his forelegs, which are still trailing back at that point in the stride (unlike the dressage extended trot) by spreading his hind legs to reach around his forelegs, which is not at all a correct thing in extended trot.

In fact, standardbreds alter their stride so much for the road trot, that they often need high boots for 'speedy cutting' and they can really slice themselves up. The ideal horse, at least when I was around standardbreds, was the horse that could bring his hind leg forward faster than any other horse, and not bloody himself doing it, even when he got tired. It is DIFFERENT from dressage but it is still incredible what the horses do.

The USEF description of collection makes it sound as if it's all about necks and hocks. I think it has led to a great deal of confusion. it does not even in passing explain the different outline of the entire stride, unless it's changed since whenever the heck I last read it....LOL.

As the stride length increases does suspension increase.

No. Or....more accurately, It MIGHT. It depends on how the horse balances, and how well the rider helps him balance. Most people are very unlikely to create more suspension as the horse takes a longer stride, thouugh it is possible. If 'taking a longer stride' was instead of doing a shuffling, low energy trot with out impulsion, connection or completing the 'circle of the aids', then yes, getting out of that gives one a chance of creating some suspension.

Suspension, even if natural to the horse, is not automatic. It is as if you had a kid who had a lot of drawing talent. He still needs paper and pencil. Without that support, he won't develop as an artist.

It is created from harnessing the horse's energy, and 'recycling' it, ie, creating impulsion. The energy is 'harnessed' with correct half halts, and makes a 'circle of the aids' that goes BACKWARD (yep) to the hind quarters, and works like winding a spring, and comes forward and meets the hand, and recycles again.

I can't understand, D. Baldstocking, why the singular focus on suspension. Even most dressage horses have very little, either natural OR produced, and life goes on. Suspension is something professionals are very good at identifying in a youngster and in 'riding it in', and rich people are very good at affording it. Most of the rest of the world is more worried about making a round circle and stopping somewhere near X.

[sid]

Sometimes, and quite often really, especially in WBs bred for that trait, a horse that has natural "suspension" can be seen in their natural way of going at the trot ...not only under saddle where the back-to-front enegy is harnessed, with the rider help, to create it . But most horses, not naturally gifted to carry themselves that way, can "develop it when they learn to ride back to front. Some better than others, depending upon how they tend to so do freely.

I call it "air time", if that makes any sense. Not sure I'm explaining this very well (grin).

[slc2]

s' perfect, sid.

[Fantastic]

There is also a moment of suspension in the classical piaffe.

Tonja, can you qualify this? What exactly do you mean?



"Classical" piaffe, as opposed to the unclassical?

[Tonja]

Fantastic wrote:
Quote:
There is also a moment of suspension in the classical piaffe.
Tonja, can you qualify this? What exactly do you mean?

"Classical" piaffe, as opposed to the unclassical?
As opposed to some modern piaffes where suspension and impulsion are not sought after.

A couple of descriptions of the classical piaffe by the masters:

“The Piaffe.
The piaffe is a cadenced trot on the spot. The horse steps from one diagonal pair of legs to the other with a moment of suspension in between. If the horse lifts the diagonal legs only when the other pair has reached the ground, the piaffe is incorrect and appears stiff and the impression of dancing in the movement is lost.” ~ Alois Podhajsky, The Complete Training of Horse and Rider

“The Piaffe
The Piaffe is the trot on the spot (le trot sur place). The horse steps diagonally in perfect regularity and good cadence, with hocks well engaged. The center of gravity rests entirely on the hocks, which receive the weight in an elastic, springy way. The impulsion is directed upwards instead of forwards. The Piaffe is an Haute Ecole movement which requires absolute obedience, perfect suppleness and lightness. A long systematic training with great experience and knowledge on the part of the rider is necessary for a smooth cadenced Piaffe. It is the foundation of all movements of the classical school ‘on and above the ground’.” ~ Richard Watjen, Dressage Riding

"Furthermore, in executing the Piaffe, the horse should always have so much impulsion and be so well on the bit that the rider is in a position to advance into a trot at any second.” ~ Richard Watjen, Dressage Riding

In the video, “The Spanish Riding School, the First 400 Years” and Neindorff’s video, “Egon von Neindorff School of Horsemanship,” there is footage of the horses performing two beat piaffes with moments of suspension. The footing is deep so the horses look like they don’t get off the ground but by looking closely at the breakover of the hooves, the extension of the fetlocks and the bend in the knees and hocks, it’s clear that the horses’ weight is no longer on the ground at all but that the horse’s weight is completely suspended into the air momentarily. The deep compression of the joints can be seen as the horse’s weight returns to the ground.

It does take an exceptional amount of strength and balance for a horse to be able to demonstrate suspension in the piaffe but it has been done repeatedly in the classical schools. It’s the effort to create suspension in the piaffe that gives the movement its gymnastic value. It improves the horse’s balance and strength which adds brilliance to the work and prepares the horse for the classical leaps.

[slc2]

Saw the video. It ain't happenin'. It is something you want to see, so you see it. It's not there. eeeeeeeee

[egontoast]

Weird thread. You have people saying in the same post that 'suspension' is what you see in the trot and canter normally but in the next breath saying it's an inheritable trait and only some horses have it (as in see slc's post indicating this on page one).

Suspension is the period of time in the trot or canter when all four feet are completely clear of the ground

A horse either has or hasn't got suspension naturally. It is inherited. To have it he must have correct conformation that allows it and be sound, but horses inherit gaits and suspension is inherited


It's more a question of degrees of suspension. Most horses have SOME suspension at trot and canter if they have normal gaits. Some horses naturally have more than others. Obviously, training can improve suspension . If you don't see it your own training you can watch the videos, attend the clinics and read the books. The progression is there.

As the back swings, as the pelvis tucks, as the hocks bend and engage, as self carriage develops, you get more suspension. You can also get too much suspension and not enough forward as in the 'passagey trot" which I see slc now apparently understands after arguing about it in the past.

[Tonja]

slc2 wrote:
Saw the video. It ain't happenin'. It is something you want to see, so you see it. It's not there. eeeeeeeee
Watch the best segments of the best piaffes on each video frame by frame. Suspension is definitely there when the horses have reached optimal balance and impulsion.

[D_BaldStockings]

'Suspension', again, is time clear of the ground. If it's gotten by sliding forward over the ground and kcking the feet out behind, or, for dressage, springing upward AND sliding forward over the ground, it's all 'suspension'. The mechanics of that motion have to be looked at in much more detail to see if the horse really has the ability to be an outstanding dressage horse.

Suspension, even if natural to the horse, is not automatic. It is as if you had a kid who had a lot of drawing talent. He still needs paper and pencil. Without that support, he won't develop as an artist.

It is created from harnessing the horse's energy, and 'recycling' it, ie, creating impulsion. The energy is 'harnessed' with correct half halts, and makes a 'circle of the aids' that goes BACKWARD (yep) to the hind quarters, and works like winding a spring, and comes forward and meets the hand, and recycles again.

I can't understand, D. Baldstocking, why the singular focus on suspension. Even most dressage horses have very little, either natural OR produced, and life goes on. Suspension is something professionals are very good at identifying in a youngster and in 'riding it in', and rich people are very good at affording it. Most of the rest of the world is more worried about making a round circle and stopping somewhere near X.

Slc2
I wondered about the Standardbred reference until I realized you took SB to mean Standardbred when I should have spelled out Saddlebred...no need to go into the deficiencies of Saddlebreds as to suspension, I think you expressed that some time earlier.

So the champion Standardbred Greyhound had plenty of airtime, but no dressage specific suspension? Ok, understood.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F54-rnGMUFw

Thank you for clarifying that suspension is upwards airtime, not forwards. That is what I was looking for, and received from many posters and finally from yourself.

As to why the singular focus, another thread expressed the lack of it in my chosen breed, which I disagreed with, and I feel it is important to disagree from a common agreement on terms, nothiing more. The thread was inactive since May until your post yesterday, which I thought was incomplete in it's definition and focused on height of step for some unknown reason. So I guess the re-focus is yours.

Baroquepony-
One arc is the time plus path when the hoof leaves the ground, travels tthrough the air in a more or less half circle forward and re-grounds. How the hoof travels through the air. It has nothing to do with suspension.

Tonja-
As usual, people see different things looking at pictures and videos and horses in the flesh. I lean toward the yes, there is suspension in the ideal, but the ideal is so seldom seen and it could be possible to present a false piaffe hopping rather than springing and think you were correct. It is so important to know and find examples that are good to emulate, and to know why they are good and how they were developed. :)

[slc2]

He did not have a lot of airtime. Look at the video. THat's why he was such a great race horse.

Saddle breds are not supposed to have suspension. it is counter to everything they were developed for. They are the 'versatility' and 'pleasure' horses bar none. Suspension is not comfortable to ride, and it is not desirable in these horses, and the breeders have selected away from it for a very long time. There are individuals that have it, just as there are individual race horses that have it - it is not desirable for either job. Those who are developing sport horse will keep selecting individuals that have small amts of it it and eventually the type will migrate toward having more of it.

And you are both wrong about suspension in the piaffe. Get some videos, put them on slow motion. You're just incorrect, that's all. This is not a 'point of view' thing or an 'opinion' thing. You assume it should be there, so you see it. It's not there. It is not physically possible. This has all been proven by research and the best old timers have said it all along and explained the mechanics of piaffe many times - it would be extremely deleterious to the horse if he were to have it in piaffe.

[D_BaldStockings]

He did not have a lot of airtime. Look at the video. THat's why he was such a great race horse.

Saddle breds are not supposed to have suspension. it is counter to everything they were developed for. They are the 'versatility' and 'pleasure' horses bar none. Suspension is not comfortable to ride, and it is not desirable in these horses, and the breeders have selected away from it for a very long time.


Even I am able to count video frames and see on the ground vs. in the air.
Greyhound had a lot of forward air time- as in all 4 off the ground. And that was part of what made him a great race horse, his stride was immense.

I'd love to quote you on that Saddlebred opinion, as there are many who feel they are not suited to anything other than 'Traditional Show' disciplines. So thank you.

As to the breeders selecting away from dressage type suspension, I can't say I've come across that opinion myself. There are so many things to select FOR there seems to be little left to select against...If a horse wants to raise his legs high enough and set his head to specifications.

There was a Saddlebred ,The Lemon Drop Kid ,who was on the cover of Sports Illustrated in the 1950's whose trot had 'an indescribable bounce' what you would call a passagey trot. He was unbeatable in Fine Harness which speaks to the perceived desirability of suspension in a Saddlebred by those who judged them -and bred them.

[goeslikestink]

slc2

I am certainly glad to hear that!

I intend to continue to learn all my life.

One may also see the Emperor has lost his clothes yet the populace remain silent - perhaps one needs glasses to see the clothes, or perhaps they are not there.

wolf in sheeps clothing -- be wary who you dealing with matey

[Tonja]

slc2 wrote:
And you are both wrong about suspension in the piaffe. Get some videos, put them on slow motion.
You won’t see suspension in just any old video of any old piaffe.

Watch the best segments of the best piaffes in the videos, “The Spanish Riding School, the First 400 Years” and Neindorff’s video, “Egon von Neindorff School of Horsemanship” frame by frame. A number horses demonstrate moments of suspension as they reach optimal balance and impulsion.
You're just incorrect, that's all. This is not a 'point of view' thing or an 'opinion' thing. You assume it should be there, so you see it. It's not there. It is not physically possible. This has all been proven by research and the best old timers have said it all along and explained the mechanics of piaffe many times - it would be extremely deleterious to the horse if he were to have it in piaffe.
Obviously suspension in the piaffe is physically possible. The “research” didn’t prove that the true classical piaffe has no suspension. (sorry for the double negative). Some ‘old timers’ may have been taken in by the “research” but there are those who have apprenticed in the classical schools who do know better. Developing suspension in the piaffe is not harmful to the horse if it’s done correctly.

So slc2, it looks like we’ll just have to agree to disagree again.

[Fixerupper]

I'm sorry that I cannot remember the name of the Swedish vet/anatomist (?) who did a study about 10 (?) years ago with ultra slow motion photography (help me out here if anyone remembers...) that shows beyond argument that 'suspension' is actually 'compression'. The measurable 'air time' or elevation in a horse with perceived 'suspension' is no different than a horse without. The illusion is caused by the horse compressing more at the hip angle thus the difference between the 'down' and the 'up' in the stride is more visible. Fascinating actually :)

not a whole different than the 19th century photographs that proved the canter/gallop was not what the perception of the time showed (in artistic representation) - i.e. forelegs both forward and hind legs both back.

[Tonja]

I'm sorry that I cannot remember the name of the Swedish vet/anatomist (?) who did a study about 10 (?) years ago with ultra slow motion photography (help me out here if anyone remembers...) that shows beyond argument that 'suspension' is actually 'compression'. The measurable 'air time' or elevation in a horse with perceived 'suspension' is no different than a horse without. The illusion is caused by the horse compressing more at the hip angle thus the difference between the 'down' and the 'up' in the stride is more visible. Fascinating actually
Were you thinking of Dr. Hölmstrom?

Some horses can create the illusion of suspension, as you describe, but the illusion of suspension is not the same as real suspension, where the horse has no feet on the ground. A horse is either demonstrating suspension or it’s not.

[D_BaldStockings]

wolf in sheeps clothing -- be wary who you dealing with matey

I did not realize I was considered 'dangerous' as wolves may be to sheep?

Or is Slc2 who you are referring to?

I foolishly assumed it was me.

Why is a thread about suspension a problem? Certainly people discuss fashion in the show ring freely, which may be somewhat less relevant to a good dressage performance.

And yes, I am trying to learn. I'm stubborn and slow sometimes but I do keep trying. That doesn't mean I will arrive at the same conclusions others have -my fund of information is not identical to theirs. Much of what I view in today's competitive dressage arena, especially winning at the upper levels appears to me to not reflect ideals and values of 30 years ago or 50 years ago. Change is inevitable, and pendulums swing from one emphasis to another through time. I am simply trying to reconcile what I saw and read then with the way it is now.

Such is progress?


Sorry to veer off topic. I find some posts confusing and don't wish to rudely ignore them.

Thank you to all for your attention to my question and your patience with me.


And by the way, I am not and never have been a saddle seat rider, which I realize is probably a major flaw, but there are many dressage riders who do not take up jumping yet still manage to enjoy the european warmblood individual that is suited for dressage. Or vice versa.

-You'll get used to me liking Saddlebreds, don't worry I'm not in pain and so long as you don't actually touch them yourself you are probably quite safe from any possible transmission of my 'disease'. :D

[ASB Stars]

Saddle breds are not supposed to have suspension. it is counter to everything they were developed for. They are the 'versatility' and 'pleasure' horses bar none. Suspension is not comfortable to ride, and it is not desirable in these horses, and the breeders have selected away from it for a very long time. There are individuals that have it, just as there are individual race horses that have it - it is not desirable for either job. Those who are developing sport horse will keep selecting individuals that have small amts of it it and eventually the type will migrate toward having more of it.


One of the delightful things about riding American Saddlebreds with suspension is that they do not throw you all over the place. Their movement is so much more oily, and, even those trained correctly to work over their backs, are much, much easier on you.

I tend to select horses who have substantial amounts of suspension. They are not hard to find, within the breed, but you do need to know where to look, and since the breed is quite cloistered, that can be challenging for someone coming into it fresh.

In order to a horse to have the motion- read higher action- that is required to win with an ASB show horse, generally, they wear a heavier shoe, and pads. When a horse engages, in the manner necessary to drive forward, and show suspension, they can't possibly wear something like this- shoes would go flying, regularly. The horses are trained- not bred- to not reach up under themselves- they are not trained to work over their backs. Clearly, this would tend to prevent the demonstration of suspension.

It certainly doesn't mean that the predisposition isn't there.

[slc2]

You're looking at one of the greatest athletes in equestrian. And one of the most flexible gene pools.

[Fixerupper]

Were you thinking of Dr. Hölmstrom?

Some horses can create the illusion of suspension, as you describe, but the illusion of suspension is not the same as real suspension, where the horse has no feet on the ground. A horse is either demonstrating suspension or it’s not.

Thank you...it is Dr. Holmstrom

But it is not the 'illusion' of suspension vs 'real' suspension...heck if all suspension is about (in dressage) is having no foot on the ground...I have it when I run! If you were to see me run I think we would both agree...I have no 'suspension' :lol:

[Tonja]

Fixerupper wrote:
But it is not the 'illusion' of suspension vs 'real' suspension...heck if all suspension is about (in dressage) is having no foot on the ground...I have it when I run! If you were to see me run I think we would both agree...I have no 'suspension'
From the USDF Glossary of Judging Terms
“Suspension
The moment or phase of the trot or canter in which the horse has no feet on the ground.”

From the Global Dressage Forum
“Suspension
The moment or phase of the trot or canter in which the horse has no feet on the ground.”

From The Complete Training of Horse and Rider, by Alois Podhajsky
“The Piaffe.
The piaffe is a cadenced trot on the spot. The horse steps from one diagonal pair of legs to the other with a moment of suspension in between. If the horse lifts the diagonal legs only when the other pair has reached the ground, the piaffe is incorrect and appears stiff and the impression of dancing in the movement is lost.”

[Fixerupper]

At this point the discussion is about semantics.

If you (or USDF, Global Dressage Forum and Podhajsky) use that definition of suspension then it follows that ALL horses have it...from Totilas to Shetland pony.... or they are not trotting or cantering.... :cool:

[D_BaldStockings]

At this point the discussion is about semantics.

If you (or USDF, Global Dressage Forum and Podhajsky) use that definition of suspension then it follows that ALL horses have it...from Totilas to Shetland pony.... or they are not trotting or cantering.... :cool:

Yes, that was a major part of my difficulty in exploring what dressage suspension is. I would have used words such as 'elasticity, rebound, springiness, compression and bending of joints throughout the horse' -when referring to dressage suspension, not 'suspension'.

I also had trouble understanding the meaning of 'oily' movement as used in Saddlebred circles -I kept hearing "...he oiled his way around the floor..." song from My fair Lady. :lol:

A Mind is a wondrous thing.

[Fixerupper]

Hear ya
to paraphrase...
language is easy....dressage is hard :lol:

[Kaeleer]

Rideability has nothing to do with the schooling of the horse, or how far it has progressed up the grades. "Rideability" is one of the things judged at the Young Horse Performance Series in Europe, and the horse is assessed on its natural ability to lengthen, shorten, turn, go forward and come back. It has nothing to do with temperament or training, and more to do with the horse's natural athleticism.

For that reason, I believe that suspension is related to rideability, in dressage, much as a good, uphill canter, is a factor of rideability in showjumping, because natural suspension makes a horse more "rideable" for the job at hand. A horse with natural cadence and suspension will find it easier to transition to piaffe, passage and flying changes, than a horse who has flatter, or more laboured movement.

Or, so I'm told by folk who've judged at the YHPS, anyway!

[Kolsch]

Re: standardbreds- if they don't show suspension at trot, then why is it that most of the pics shown (even those of good racers) generally look like:

http://www.bluestonefarms.com/images/Laughing-Louder.jpg

http://cdn-write.demandstudios.com/upload//1000/300/80/3/31383.jpg

http://www.horseshowcentral.com/upload/flex_img/290220080442071.jpg

Difference between the trotter and the dressage horse IMO is that the trotter equally disengages and engages each hind leg- the dressage horse both hind legs are brought under the body in engagement which sends the suspension upwards rather than forwards.

[slc2]

Some of them have it, some don't as I said, none of them have 'dressage type suspension' (upward, with cadence) if they are winning. The fastest gallop in the world is similar - a very, very flat gait - any suspension comes from pushing over the ground in the racing gallop, relatively on the forehand, with the shoulders relatively low, the neck relatively stretched out, the shape of stride relatively flat. The horse is 'engaging his hind leg' but in a different way. I worked at more than one standardbred farm and had this all explained to me eons ago. What is 'good' in dressage (upward suspension from carrying) is 'bad' in racing - it's wasted energy.

This is not from dressage training, any suspension that is there, needs to come from pushing or it is wasted energy the animal cannot afford. And the stride during that suspension is very different in shape and mechanics.

Look at how close the standardbred's feet are to the ground.

In those that do have the suspension shown above (which is not that unusual in standardbreds, but again, has a different SHAPE and is obtained via different mechanics), it's brief, and not a dressage type of suspension, it's pushing forward over the ground, not up, and as far as time goes as compared to dressage suspension, very brief(giving the standardbred trot the snare-drum sound), and with the foreleg trailing back and the hind leg pushing out behind.

The more 'air' a race horse gets, the more energy he wastes and the more he slows down. The 'best horse in all Europe' video, while comical, shows exactly why suspension is bad in a race horse. When it is there, it is flat, and obtained differently than in dressage. If it were obtained the same way in racing (half halts, flexion) the horse would LOSE THE RACE.

D Baldstockings, 'suspension' means one thing and only one thing. All the other qualities you roll into 'suspension' are why you don't understand the term. Suspension is only one thing. Air time. That's ALL it is. The term 'suspension' doesn't even specify what type of suspension or how it is obtained mechanically. That is ALL separate from the term.

THEN we talk about HOW the suspension is created, whether it's a dressage shaped suspension (up, from carrying) or a race horse type of suspension (forwawrd over the ground, from pushing) and how much is natural, how much can be developed in training, and HOW it is developed.

"'elasticity, rebound, springiness, compression and bending of joints throughout the horse'"

These all are not suspension per se. A horse can show elasticity, compression and bending of the joints throughout the horse without having any suspension what so ever.

Though 'rebound' is not a dressage term you will find in the USDF definitions, nor is 'springiness', so I have no idea how they are being used or what they really mean.

A suggestion - for understanding dressage, stick to the dressage terms and learn to define them precisely(read the rule books and books like Crossley where the terms are first defined, then explained in more detail, and THEN it is discussed how they are developed and what are the 'prerequisites').

It leads to better ability to communicate with people and to understand what they're saying. It really is a good thing to have a precise lexicon and to use it correctly.

"Oiliness" refers to a fluid stride, without jerkiness, stop action, or stiffness. That is all THAT refers to, LOL. In dressage, it is called fluidity or suppleness. Or...SOUNDNESS....LOL.

"Oiliness" in saddlebreds is not produced in the same way as fluidity in dressage. Dressage and saddle seat riding and training are very different. Even when things look the same, they are not obtained in the same way. Saddle seat collection is different from dressage collection, so is contact. The back is used differently, as are the hind quarters. Even when the double bridle is used, it is used in a different way. It's just different.

[ASB Stars]

"Oiliness" refers to a fluid stride, without jerkiness, stop action, or stiffness. That is all THAT refers to, LOL. In dressage, it is called fluidity or suppleness. Or...SOUNDNESS....LOL.

"Oiliness" in saddlebreds is not produced in the same way as fluidity in dressage. Dressage and saddle seat riding and training are very different. Even when things look the same, they are not obtained in the same way. Saddle seat collection is different from dressage collection, so is contact. The back is used differently, as are the hind quarters. Even when the double bridle is used, it is used in a different way. It's just different.

Oilyness isn't "produced" in American Saddlebreds as a result of training- for dressage, or the show ring. They either have it, or they don't. It is that sinuous, catlike movement- the ability to expand, and contract, their inner spring, and balance effortlessly. That is not a result of training.

I would compare it to fluidity, and suppleness, as you mention. My connotation of "soundess" would not suggest that a horse who is sound is also an oily mover. However, I doubt that they can be oily, without being sound.

[slc2]

Yes, that's what I meant, but didn't explain it properly(soundness). Re - oiliness, you know, if you said that about a dressage horse, you'd have an army down your neck, an army that believes that there is no such thing as innate ability like that - all horses can be trained to do anything, lol. I don't believe it, and glad to see someone else doesn't. Some of these things are either in there or they aren't. But, as they say, 'it's yours to ruin' - poor training sure can take it away.

[ASB Stars]

It's alright- the same crowd that is "anti-Totilas" is probably on that list. In truth, they are all just wishing that they had a horse with anything approaching that movement, and talent.

I've watched the WB folks over the years- the ones who run to Europe to come back with the next big thing (that they probably can't ride over first level) and those are the folks who want everything hammered into the round hole- square, or not. Now, they'll be running their britches off around Europe, trying to find a horse that can move like the big guy.

My advice? Stay home, and buy with American $$. We have what you need right here, honey! :winkgrin:

And slc- your PM box is full....

[slc2]

Overall the horse must be the most hated of the talented horses, ROFLMAO.

on the inbox, doh.