Continental Studbook--New North American Registry Warmblood and Thoroughbred Breeding

[Continental Studbook]

May 1, 2009 - A New North American Registry Debuts for Warmblood and Thoroughbred Breeding

The Continental Studbook-- The Right Studbook for North America at the Right Time

Today the Continental Studbook announces its opening as a new registry for North American breeders of Warmbloods and Thoroughbreds for Olympic and hunter sports. The Studbook has been designed from the bottom up to cater to the needs of breeders in North America. Until now, no registry has emerged from a design that is based solely on the challenges of breeding in North America, that is focused on Warmblood and Thoroughbred sport horses and that is dedicated to advancing the interests of North American breeders. The Continental Studbook fills this void with cost effective services, minimal bureaucracy, dedicated North American promotion, open Warmblood breeding policies, focused breeding direction and geographically unlimited travel-free systems.

The Continental Studbook accommodates and promotes the domestic sport horse population descended from Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Ireland, Netherlands, North America, Sweden and more. The mare centric Studbook recognizes and promotes outstanding quality, lineage and production while substantially reducing bureaucracy and costs for the breeder. Through constant breeding direction and well designed approval and licensing processes, the Continental Studbook is dedicated to establishing a quality reputation and brand name for North American horses.

The Continental Studbook will be accepting foal registration and mare approval applications starting on Monday, May 11. In the meantime, breeders and horse enthusiasts are invited to explore the Studbook in more detail by visiting the website at www.continentalstudbook.com. Studbook officials are available to answer questions via e-mail, via phone or via discussions on the Continental Studbook forum.

www.continentalstudbook.com
registrar@continentalstudbook.com

[Bent Hickory]

Just received the press release announcing the new "Continental Studbook" that purports to solve North American breeders' woes.

My first (and really only) question is "Who?"

[SGray]

where did this come from? and why?

[Continental Studbook]

Those are two very big questions beyond the scope of a BB. They are addressed in exhaustive detail on the website.

Office - Continental Studbook

[flashykatt]

Exactly!! I went to the website and there is NO information on who started this studbook, no actual human names in the Contact section of the website. There were some farm names in a link section, that may provide some clues...

[Oakstable]

"Why" is very apparent to people who have been reading threads in this forum for many years on the challenges to breeders on this continent.

At least with three of the registeries that require foals being seen as foals or yearlings or be out of luck for registration, an alternative is worth looking at.

At present there are jurors for these three zig-zagging all over the contentinent to evaluate mares and foals.

And we all know it is just a day in a foal's life. Could be a good day or a bad day. (I know from personal experience ... which is one of many reasons I mostly breed Dutch which does not require foal inspections).

I've invested all of 5-10 minutes looking at the web site of this new organization.

I suspect the organizers are those folks in the links.

Sally

[DownYonder]

To take a wild guess, I would say maybe Kathy Stover, because it offers exactly what she has been ranting about all these years.

OTOH, the contact address is in Eugene, Oregon. Who do we know in the PNW that has had a beef against the Euro registries and might want to put something like this together? Doug Spink?

[Dressage_Diva333]

I feel the same way, I got the email too.

So, are there no inspections? I'm a little confused by the whole thing.

[Edgewood]

Just received the press release announcing the new "Continental Studbook" that purports to solve North American breeders' woes.

My first (and really only) question is "Who?"
Mine too. I just got the email from them and went to check the Contacts on the website...no info, just a PO box.

[Home Again Farm]

Website phone # is Eugene, OR.

Whois for the site is Robert Hickman, Lebanon NJ

Inquiring minds want to know. :winkgrin:

[DownYonder]

I'd love to know how they came up with their list of approved stallions. I did a quick spot check, and they are missing - among others - Sure Hit and Davidor, both of whom are imported German WB stallions fully approved by The Oldenburg Horse Breeders Society/German Oldenburg Verband.

[sporthorsefilly]

It may be the disgruntled stallion owner whose horses were kicked out of RPSI for non compliance with approval directives. Followers of this SO have recently been bashing the SO's current registry, so perhaps this SO is starting their own registry. For fun and PROFIT of course!

Of course I tend to read too many mystery novels :)

[aurum]

I got the email too and I am in Germany. But my first question was and would be WHO is or are the names behind of this. I do not like that there are no names on the site. It is like wanting to stay anonymous and that does not look good for an Association. But other than that why not if people think this is needed.

[omare]

I think that (from my 5 minute study)-if your stlalion has been approved by a book that is in the WBSf AND that requires x-rays--your stallion is in the book-they might have missed a few stallion.

It seems like a bit of thought went into it....(or at least smarter folks than me ;-)

[PineTreeFarm]

I'm not too concerned about the 'who'

I am concerned about this statement:

"Why does the Studbook reject off-the-track TBs?
The Continental Studbook’s highest purpose is promote breeding of horses suitable for the WBFSH tracked Olympic sports of dressage, eventing and show jumping and also for the North American sport of show hunters. Only horses suitable for this purpose are admitted to the registry, and there is no correlation of race performance to these sports. This restriction protects both warmblood breeders and also TB sport horse breeders from marketing and name brand dilution by non-competitive racing animals. The studbook is interested in promoting the likes of Cottage Son, Laudanum and Gem Twist, and it is not interested in unsuitable mares or stallions that have no value in the TB auction market. A TB can have a previous race history, but it must demonstrate ability in the core sports to be accepted for breeding."

If the registry is looking to include Hunters they have to realize that some of the best TB hunters have been OTTB race track rejects. If you look at the zone level hunter standing there are many,many TB's high on the point standings. For the most part they are not purpose bred TB's for sport. Instead they are race bred, failed racing 101 and have a new job. Some of the great racing bloodlines have produced superior sport horses. Viney has demonstarted that many times.
The mare base here does include many TB's. Many, if not most of the American bred hunters have been WB x TB crosses.

[JB]

A mare and stallion evaluation system has been designed to track and recognize achievements attained in quality, breeding and performance. Based on five key principles of Pedigree, Performance, Phenotype, Physical and Progeny, the voluntary 5P PRODUCTION INDICATOR SYSTEM is designed to be a tool for domestic offspring marketing, breeding decisions, quality recognition, performance data recognition and stallion licensing.

PEDIGREE - The Pedigree indicator is an evaluation of the quality of the progenitor horses (both mares and stallions) on both the paternal and maternal side of the pedigree and an evaluation of the quality of the family. The Studbook is looking for mares, stallions and families in the pedigree that have been very successful in upper level sport, that have been successful in producing offspring for upper level sport or that are breeding siblings of the same.
PERFORMANCE - This is an easy to understand indicator. The Performance indicator will be awarded to horses achieving certain results at A-rated shows in dressage, eventing, hunters and jumping. The required performance levels will be higher than those of stallion approvals by other registries, and the levels are intended to identify and award horses with successful dedicated competition careers.
PHENOTYPE - The criteria of this indicator are under final review, but basically the Studbook is looking for a mare or stallion that has a measurable correct conformation within determined limits, looks like a Thoroughbred or Warmblood sport horse and moves in walk, trot and canter like a sport horse. This indicator cannot be obtained until the mare or stallion is at least three years old. A key goal of this indicator is to generate data for breeders to use as mating tools.
PHYSICAL - This indicator is easy to understand. The animal has to be: 1) cleared by a veterinarian that it is grossly free of congenital defects such as parrot mouth, lordosis, etc.; 2) laryngoscoped or lunged with the veterinarian in attendance and be judged free of roaring; and 3) x-ray examined with 12 specified views of its joints to see that it is free, or exhibits only minor occurrences, of congenital orthopedic anomalies such as osteochondritis dessicans, ring bone, etc.
PROGENY - This indicator is awarded based on achievements of a horse’s offspring through either performance or other metrics. The metrics include producing offspring performing at high levels of sport, producing offspring achieving Phenotype and Physical indicators and producing offspring licensed as breeding stallions

So, it's a Performance Registry for horses who look like TBs or WBs (what exactly do they look like anyway), have performed at some level or produce enough offspring who perform at some level, have 12 xrays taken to prove "soundness", and pass what's basically a PPE by a vet.

Yep, sounds better than the AWS/AWR to me ;)

[Moderator 1]

We merged the two threads re: this new registry here and tweaked the thread title to include as much of the original info from both as possible.

Thanks,
Mod 1

[equestrianism]

Doesn't it have something to do with the NASHF otherwise I don't have a clue in how and why they managed to find me and send a press release my way :confused:

[JB]

I'm not too concerned about the 'who'

I am concerned about this statement:

"Why does the Studbook reject off-the-track TBs?

I guess the OTTBs don't "look like a TB or WB"? :confused:

[sporthorsefilly]

I'm not too concerned about the 'who'

I am concerned about this statement:

"Why does the Studbook reject off-the-track TBs?
The Continental Studbook’s highest purpose is promote breeding of horses suitable for the WBFSH tracked Olympic sports of dressage, eventing and show jumping and also for the North American sport of show hunters. Only horses suitable for this purpose are admitted to the registry, and there is no correlation of race performance to these sports. This restriction protects both warmblood breeders and also TB sport horse breeders from marketing and name brand dilution by non-competitive racing animals. The studbook is interested in promoting the likes of Cottage Son, Laudanum and Gem Twist, and it is not interested in unsuitable mares or stallions that have no value in the TB auction market. A TB can have a previous race history, but it must demonstrate ability in the core sports to be accepted for breeding."

If the registry is looking to include Hunters they have to realize that some of the best TB hunters have been OTTB race track rejects. If you look at the zone level hunter standing there are many,many TB's high on the point standings. For the most part they are not purpose bred TB's for sport. Instead they are race bred, failed racing 101 and have a new job. Some of the great racing bloodlines have produced superior sport horses. Viney has demonstarted that many times.
The mare base here does include many TB's. Many, if not most of the American bred hunters have been WB x TB crosses.

"A TB can have a previous race history, but it must demonstrate ability in the core sports to be accepted for breeding."

Well that will leave out any TB mare that was injured on the track, or one who was not shown due to an injury. The TB X hunters have other good registry options.

Yup, have to agree, just another AWS style with a few restrictions. NO THANKS! Not registering any of my horses with a registry with no humans who will step forward, rather than hide behind a PO box.

[Bent Hickory]

To take a wild guess, I would say maybe Kathy Stover, because it offers exactly what she has been ranting about all these years.

My thoughts too, especially given the tenor and content of her posts in the months just prior to her banishment from this forum.

After further review, my sense is that some of the folks behind this may have been involved with the American Holsteiner Horse Association prior to its recent policy changes in favor of "purebreeding." I could be mistaken.

[equestrianism]

"A TB can have a previous race history, but it must demonstrate ability in the core sports to be accepted for breeding."

Well that will leave out any TB mare that was injured on the track, or one who was not shown due to an injury. The TB X hunters have other good registry options.

Yup, have to agree, just another AWS style with a few restrictions. NO THANKS! Not registering any of my horses with a registry with no humans who will step forward, rather than hide behind a PO box.
A little question from Europe what are AWS and AWR? American Warmblood Registry? and?

[Nootka]

Yeap and Amercan Warmblood Society www.americanwarmblood.org

[equestrianism]

Are they the "same" thing arguing over little things or completely different from one another?

[Kareen]

Oh Geez, there we go again...

[PineTreeFarm]

Website phone # is Eugene, OR.

Whois for the site is Robert Hickman, Lebanon NJ

Inquiring minds want to know. :winkgrin:

if you look at the 'Farm Links' you'll get an idea who is involved.

http://www.continentalstudbook.com/index-3.html

[sid]

Looks like the thing was incorporated in Delaware. It's interesting that it was not set up as a non-profit 501 C (3), but as an LLC, and that section of the site spends a lot of time explaining the reason for that. They also made a point to say that they are already well funded. From who, how?

Oh well, seems like this one came out of the blue, but someone or some people really put a lot of time into their site and "May Day" marketing bash. Not to be glib, but I guess I'll watch this for the moment with a bag of popcorn.

I'm not a fan of secrecy.

[Waterwitch]

I googled the contact phone number and it cross references to Rebecca Cobb (former AHHA board member).

[canwong]

All of a sudden, we have 2 new stud books.
1) Continental Studbook
2) Irish Warmblood with Dr. Tom Reed as breed director.

I think the Continental Studbook should let us know who their breed director is. Just a thought.

[Christa P]

I'm not too concerned about the 'who'

I am concerned about this statement:

"Why does the Studbook reject off-the-track TBs?
The Continental Studbook’s highest purpose is promote breeding of horses suitable for the WBFSH tracked Olympic sports of dressage, eventing and show jumping and also for the North American sport of show hunters. Only horses suitable for this purpose are admitted to the registry, and there is no correlation of race performance to these sports. This restriction protects both warmblood breeders and also TB sport horse breeders from marketing and name brand dilution by non-competitive racing animals. The studbook is interested in promoting the likes of Cottage Son, Laudanum and Gem Twist, and it is not interested in unsuitable mares or stallions that have no value in the TB auction market. A TB can have a previous race history, but it must demonstrate ability in the core sports to be accepted for breeding."

If the registry is looking to include Hunters they have to realize that some of the best TB hunters have been OTTB race track rejects. If you look at the zone level hunter standing there are many,many TB's high on the point standings. For the most part they are not purpose bred TB's for sport. Instead they are race bred, failed racing 101 and have a new job. Some of the great racing bloodlines have produced superior sport horses. Viney has demonstarted that many times.
The mare base here does include many TB's. Many, if not most of the American bred hunters have been WB x TB crosses.

Sounds like they don't completely reject OTTBs. But if you present a OTTB for breeding it MUST have other performance credentials. So your OTTB A show champion/ Rolex winner/ GP dressage mount is eligible because they have the performance off the track to show a reason to breed.

Christa

[PineTreeFarm]

Sounds like they don't completely reject OTTBs. But if you present a OTTB for breeding it MUST have other performance credentials. So your OTTB A show champion/ Rolex winner/ GP dressage mount is eligible because they have the performance off the track to show a reason to breed.

Christa

Sure, but the point is the American bred A show champ is likely to be a product of a WB stallion crossed on a TB mare. The TB mare may not have ANY performance record other than a failure as a race horse. But her bloodlnes may have produced superior Hunters.
Or as Sporthorsefilly mentioned, a TB mare may have had a career ending track injury but still produce nice horses.
How many WB mares have superior performance records before being allowed to breed? How many go right to the breeding shed because they do have superior bloodlines?

[equestrianism]

A TB can have a previous race history, but it must demonstrate ability in the core sports to be accepted for breeding.I may be an idiot but the way I've read this line is that the demonstration of ability could come from exceptional good bloodlines that are suitable for breeding horses into the equestrian olympic sport.

I'm a 100% TB-freak when it comes to the TB-lines in sport horse breeding and where I come from the stallion committé has more than once approved completely useless TB-stallions in to the SWB-studbook. That is TB-stallions with no inheritance what so ever that can be related to any kind of performance in the olympic disciplines.

Laudanum was an exceptional TB-stallion that managed to compete at the highest level, but he was almost one of a kind. There aren't that many TB-stallions ever competed at the highest level there's Hand in Glove, Laudanum, Favoritas, Come Fast, Coconut Grove and not so many more. So if they're not planning on selecting TB:s from pedigrees they're really not gonna get any TB.s at all.

[Home Again Farm]

My thoughts too, especially given the tenor and content of her posts in the months just prior to her banishment from this forum.

After further review, my sense is that some of the folks behind this may have been involved with the American Holsteiner Horse Association prior to its recent policy changes in favor of "purebreeding." I could be mistaken.

To that, I'll say bingo! :winkgrin::yes:

[Oakstable]

Why are the knives coming out?

Some people put a lot of thought into this.

Shouldn't the concept be judged by what it offers more than who thought of it?

[sid]

Oakstable, no knives on this front. I'm just always a bit skeptical when there are no names/identities that appear with a new corporation presented to the public in this way.

[Maryanne Nicpon]

The answer:

The three organizers are defectors from the AHHA. I'm not sure why their identities are secret, but it is not my place to reveal them. I believe the impetus came from the denial from the AHHA board of some non-Holsteiner stallions that the individuals wanted to breed to. So they decided to create their own registry. I haven't figured out the difference between this registry and the ISR, AWS or RPSI.

[equestrianism]

Why are the knives coming out?

Some people put a lot of thought into this.

Shouldn't the concept be judged by what it offers more than who thought of it?I'm not that good in US breeding and don't know where and why the knifes came out. But I do agree with one thing that really didn't bother me at first and that is the lack of contact information to an actual person behind the scene. Just a little name would be good. Otherwise not knowing of any North American breeding society wars I think the idea is pretty good and well thought trough. It's also in line with what a lot of breeders from Sweden have been wanted and discussed at plenty of levels of breeding the last couple of years.

People are being more then fed up with strange regulations and rules in horse breeding and i.e where I come from you can strategically place your breeding mare like on a chess board when it comes to mating and foaling and therefor make a fully A-registered horse which wouldn't be possible if you went in another direction.

But still I wonder if this organization has anything to do with the big meeting amongst your breeding organisations about two months ago.

[Home Again Farm]

No knives on my part — merely curiosity. If they serve a purpose for some people, more power to them. I do like transparency, though, and I think most others do, too. Perhaps food for thought for those involved in establishing this new registry.

[Oakstable]

I don't know anything about the AWS but the ISR and RPSI require foal/yearling inspections in order to get registration papers.

This registry seems to be offering "virtual inspections."

It also offers a flat registration fee, not ratched up by age.

This country was founded by defectors, so defectors are okay by me.

This reminds me a tad of Zangerzheide's concept that someone was floating.

[Fred]

I'm not too concerned about the 'who'

I am concerned about this statement:

"Why does the Studbook reject off-the-track TBs?
The Continental Studbook’s highest purpose is promote breeding of horses suitable for the WBFSH tracked Olympic sports of dressage, eventing and show jumping and also for the North American sport of show hunters. Only horses suitable for this purpose are admitted to the registry, and there is no correlation of race performance to these sports. This restriction protects both warmblood breeders and also TB sport horse breeders from marketing and name brand dilution by non-competitive racing animals. The studbook is interested in promoting the likes of Cottage Son, Laudanum and Gem Twist, and it is not interested in unsuitable mares or stallions that have no value in the TB auction market. A TB can have a previous race history, but it must demonstrate ability in the core sports to be accepted for breeding."

If the registry is looking to include Hunters they have to realize that some of the best TB hunters have been OTTB race track rejects. If you look at the zone level hunter standing there are many,many TB's high on the point standings. For the most part they are not purpose bred TB's for sport. Instead they are race bred, failed racing 101 and have a new job. Some of the great racing bloodlines have produced superior sport horses. Viney has demonstarted that many times.
The mare base here does include many TB's. Many, if not most of the American bred hunters have been WB x TB crosses.

I agree Pinetree

That kind of short-sightedness is enough to put me off right there. "not interested in unsuitable mares or stallions that have no value in the TB auction market" That alone shows a complete lack of understanding of how racing and the TB race horse market works.

TB horses who are well (race) bred, with outstanding conformation, and decent race records, or even outstanding race records are not necessarily in demand in the breeding shed. There are many reasons for that. One of them is that pedigrees in racing go in and out of fashion.

I'll keep reading.....

Edited to add that one of my very best broodmares, a big rangy athlete of a mare, an OTTB with a mediocre race record, by a stallion who was only SP, out of a multiple SW Argentine dam, would be worth pretty much nothing in the Thoroughbred race auction market.
She had a terrible fall on the track and tore a tendon, so could never have a 'sport' career. However, she is the dam of an eventer who has gone Advanced, and a winning GP jumper. (full TB).
Would she be approved by this registry?

[sid]

I thought it was interesting to see so many links to Holsteiners on the site...:lol:

[Continental Studbook]

Hello Everyone,

Sorry for not addressing this issue sooner. We monitored the BB for a while, and there was no activity. Then after answering lots of direct emails, we find it to have exploded with comment, which is both good and bad.

We should have anticipated the BB environment better. For the record, no founders originate from the threads on this BB or even have a very significant history on this BB. The Continental Studbook concept is actually about 2 years old. Heavy duty investment in time, money and the work of setting up the Studbook is about 1 year old.

I will answer all questions as fast as I can, but let's address a few key ones first. The Studbook is incorporated in Delaware with the Registrar Office doing business in Oregon. This arrangement means no state sales taxes. Simple enough.

Now on to founders. Here they are:

Robert Hickman, President and Technology Developer
Zaffiro Farm, NJ

Rebecca Cobb, Registrar, OR
Former Breeding Chairwomen AHHA

Steve Passman, Branding and Operations
Meodowcreek Holsteiners, KS

We apologize for the omission. We should have better anticipated this reaction.

I will start looking at other questions and posts now. Stayed tuned.

Robert Hickman
Continental Studbook

[vineyridge]

Sounds like they don't completely reject OTTBs. But if you present a OTTB for breeding it MUST have other performance credentials. So your OTTB A show champion/ Rolex winner/ GP dressage mount is eligible because they have the performance off the track to show a reason to breed.

Christa


There are a LOT of TB stallions used in European WB breeding who were race horses only. Cottage Son comes to mind, and he was listed as an example of the horses they are looking for. Laurie's Crusador was an OTTB. There are many, many others. Furioso raced but never won; I believe Laudanum may have raced a few times. Given that this registry seems to be Holsteiner based in large part, I wonder what they think about Ladykiller, who might have raced himself (can't find a race record for him quickly) but was certainly from a very long line of successful to moderately successful race horses. Sacramento Song was also an OTTB.

Too many of the TB sires in all the registries were racehorses who also sired racehorses. I find it somewhat peculiar that when the Germans verbands are working with the German racing authoriities to showcase TB racers for WB breeding, this new group is so blind that they cannot see value in the long history of success in using TB race genetics for sport.

Edited to add that Ladykiller was a failed racehorse. Found this in his biography on The Horse Magazine:
Ladykiller was born in England in 1961 but he was no star on the racetrack, racing three times in two years and rating only a 80.5 kilo handicap – which luckily for him, was 0.5 kilos more than the minimum required for a Thoroughbred stallion to be accepted into German breeding ranks.

[Continental Studbook]

I'd love to know how they came up with their list of approved stallions. I did a quick spot check, and they are missing - among others - Sure Hit and Davidor, both of whom are imported German WB stallions fully approved by The Oldenburg Horse Breeders Society/German Oldenburg Verband.

Unfortunately some stallions were simply missed. This also includes Bratt Z, Ruffian and Palladio which have been brought to our attention. The website is clear about alerting us to omissions. Tracking 1000+ stallions is no easy task. In fact, no less than 40 hours of time went into simply verifying the sire x damsire data for every stallion on the website.

We have also been informed that the entire Swedish stallion selection is missing. Somehow that list was not consolidated with the others when the final html formatting was performed. It was a clerical error which will be fixed shortly.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[Continental Studbook]

I think that (from my 5 minute study)-if your stlalion has been approved by a book that is in the WBSf AND that requires x-rays--your stallion is in the book-they might have missed a few stallion.

It seems like a bit of thought went into it....(or at least smarter folks than me ;-)

Yes, exactly.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[Continental Studbook]

I'm not too concerned about the 'who'

If the registry is looking to include Hunters they have to realize that some of the best TB hunters have been OTTB race track rejects. If you look at the zone level hunter standing there are many,many TB's high on the point standings. For the most part they are not purpose bred TB's for sport. Instead they are race bred, failed racing 101 and have a new job. Some of the great racing bloodlines have produced superior sport horses. Viney has demonstarted that many times.
The mare base here does include many TB's. Many, if not most of the American bred hunters have been WB x TB crosses.

Once a TB demonstrates the sport capability that you discuss, it is considered suitable for sport and thus eligible for the CS. A TB may have a race history, that just cannot be its only history (unless it has already produced offspring shown to be suitable for sport). We are fully supportive of the TB in NA breeding. I myself own Zaloubet Zaffiro at TB family WB stallion and his mom an F1 cross. There are breeders doing great things with TBs. Nancy Whitehead and the leading 6 yo YJC mare Rendezvous, out of a TB by a TB family stallion, immediately come to mind.

For a final example, you can take a very good working hunter TB mare and breed her to Coconut Grove, and we will proudly register the offspring. What we do not want is a mare that has never jumped a fence or entered a dressage ring. This puts our quality directive and brand name development, which benefits every breeder who chooses to use the CS, at too much risk.

I hope that this clears things up.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[Continental Studbook]

So, it's a Performance Registry for horses who look like TBs or WBs (what exactly do they look like anyway), have performed at some level or produce enough offspring who perform at some level, have 12 xrays taken to prove "soundness", and pass what's basically a PPE by a vet.

Yep, sounds better than the AWS/AWR to me ;)

From our FAQ section of the website:

How is this registry different from AWS and AWR?

Other than also registering European warmbloods, there are virtually no similarities between the Continental Studbook and the AWS/AWR. The Continental Studbook does not replicate a European inspection site model like AWS/AWR; it does not require membership; it does not issue certificates of pedigree; it does not stagger or tier its registry books; it does not record, register or accept many non-warmblood breeds and bloodlines found in the AWS/AWR.

[Continental Studbook]

Looks like the thing was incorporated in Delaware. It's interesting that it was not set up as a non-profit 501 C (3), but as an LLC, and that section of the site spends a lot of time explaining the reason for that. They also made a point to say that they are already well funded. From who, how?

Oh well, seems like this one came out of the blue, but someone or some people really put a lot of time into their site and "May Day" marketing bash. Not to be glib, but I guess I'll watch this for the moment with a bag of popcorn.

I'm not a fan of secrecy.

The 501c3 issue well addressed in the FAQ and the Explore CS section. The Studbook is modeled after the Jockey Club and the AKC. We fundamentally determined that elections (with attempts to change directives and idealogy) were an overhead that distracted from the purpose at hand - breeding and promotion.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[Continental Studbook]

All of a sudden, we have 2 new stud books.
1) Continental Studbook
2) Irish Warmblood with Dr. Tom Reed as breed director.

I think the Continental Studbook should let us know who their breed director is. Just a thought.

You as the breeder are your own breed director; however, educational efforts will be developed. The CS will not tell you what to do outside of the strict limits on WBFSH recognized warmbloods and TBs. In terms of licensing future CS stallions, that will be performed with recruitment of domestic professionals with a proven history of breeding and competition.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[Continental Studbook]

All of a sudden, we have 2 new stud books.
1) Continental Studbook
2) Irish Warmblood with Dr. Tom Reed as breed director.

I think the Continental Studbook should let us know who their breed director is. Just a thought.

OK, well the difference is obvious here: Ireland and North America. Tom Reed was a reviewer of our rules, etc., during development of the CS. He provided very good input.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[Continental Studbook]

The answer:

The three organizers are defectors from the AHHA. I'm not sure why their identities are secret, but it is not my place to reveal them. I believe the impetus came from the denial from the AHHA board of some non-Holsteiner stallions that the individuals wanted to breed to. So they decided to create their own registry. I haven't figured out the difference between this registry and the ISR, AWS or RPSI.

No, that isn't the case. Myself, I have a history of using both KWPN-NA and AHHA. My mares were approved NA-SF, and then it folded. I approached others about my ideas of what would make an ideal NA studbook. The rest is history.

The sole reason not to plaster names on the internet was that we incorrectly thought it would reduce drama; however, the opposite happened. For that we apologize to everyone.

There will be a stories about the rejection of Darco for Mr. Passman's breeding, but the CS was already well under way when that occured. However, we are please that this excellent Darco foal will represent one of our first registrations.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[Continental Studbook]

I don't know anything about the AWS but the ISR and RPSI require foal/yearling inspections in order to get registration papers.

This registry seems to be offering "virtual inspections."

It also offers a flat registration fee, not ratched up by age.

This country was founded by defectors, so defectors are okay by me.

This reminds me a tad of Zangerzheide's concept that someone was floating.

It is far more involved in quality control than Z which only needs a copy of your registration papers to approve a mare. The open WBFSH concept is similar. Also, we hope to develop a strong presence in all four major sports and not specialize in jumping only.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[Continental Studbook]

I agree Pinetree

That kind of short-sightedness is enough to put me off right there. "not interested in unsuitable mares or stallions that have no value in the TB auction market" That alone shows a complete lack of understanding of how racing and the TB race horse market works.

TB horses who are well (race) bred, with outstanding conformation, and decent race records, or even outstanding race records are not necessarily in demand in the breeding shed. There are many reasons for that. One of them is that pedigrees in racing go in and out of fashion.

I'll keep reading.....

Edited to add that one of my very best broodmares, a big rangy athlete of a mare, an OTTB with a mediocre race record, by a stallion who was only SP, out of a multiple SW Argentine dam, would be worth pretty much nothing in the Thoroughbred race auction market.
She had a terrible fall on the track and tore a tendon, so could never have a 'sport' career. However, she is the dam of an eventer who has gone Advanced, and a winning GP jumper. (full TB).
Would she be approved by this registry?

Yes, because your mare has shown an ability to produce capable horses for sport, she is eligible.

Sorry if one very unique situation puts you off, but there are many higher priorities than accepting an OTTB mare which cannot demonstrate a reason (either through her own sport, the lineage of her parents, or the results of her offspring) to be bred for completely unrelated sports. A Studbook focused on dressage, eventing, hunter and jumping competition should not be forced to accommodate issues arising from completely unrelated sports.

Many breeders will find that position to be a re-assuring sign of our commitment to brand name development for the Continental Horse. Regarding the TB, we had many conversions with breeders of TB sport horses to develop this philosophy.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[showjumpers66]

Kudos to those who listened to feedback from unhappy breeders and stepped up to try to offer another solution.

Nope. This organization is not a brain child of the NASHF and was not discussed at the meeting.


But still I wonder if this organization has anything to do with the big meeting amongst your breeding organisations about two months ago.

[ponygirl]

Exactly!! I went to the website and there is NO information on who started this studbook, no actual human names in the Contact section of the website. There were some farm names in a link section, that may provide some clues...

Bingo :)

[Fred]

Yes, because your mare has shown an ability to produce capable horses for sport, she is eligible.

Sorry if one very unique situation puts you off, but there are many higher priorities than accepting an OTTB mare which cannot demonstrate a reason (either through her own sport, the lineage of her parents, or the results of her offspring) to be bred for completely unrelated sports. A Studbook focused on dressage, eventing, hunter and jumping competition should not be forced to accommodate issues arising from completely unrelated sports.

Many breeders will find that position to be a re-assuring sign of our commitment to brand name development for the Continental Horse. Regarding the TB, we had many conversions with breeders of TB sport horses to develop this philosophy.

Robert
Continental Studbook

I'm sorry, CS, I was not quite clear enough in my question about the mare.
I used this specific mare to illustrate a larger issue and concern, that is your OTTB stance.
Certainly it is nice to hear that she ie this mare, would be accepted on the basis of the performance of her offspring, but my point was that this mare (and mares potentially just like her) would NOT have been accepted/acceptable at the time she came off the track (being a lowly OTTB), before she became a broodmare.
By the time a mare has offspring winning in the GP ring, chances are her breeding life is coming to an end.

I do want to wish you all the best of luck with your registry however. Your website looks excellent, and clearly a lot of work has gone into the planning.
As a breeder of Thoroughbred Sport Horses, I would have been pleased to offer my input, FWIT.

[CathyKb]

Now that we know who and you are being so kind with your information and answers ~~~ Good Luck with your registery.

Some breeders may really like this option, just another option for breeders that may want to go that route.

[buschkn]

I am amazed and yet not amazed at the tone that immediately comes out on the BB in a thread like this. Everyone complains about the system here and what is wrong and needs fixing etc etc. Then someone obviously puts a lot of time and energy into trying to do something about it and provide people with what they, and people are already being naysayers, or are suspicious b/c the founders names weren't plastered all over the front page. I have not had time to examine the whole thing, but it sounds like it could be just what people in NA have been asking for.

I applaud anyone who takes the time and effort to try something new. I will be interested to see how it develops over time.

[ponygirl]

I am amazed and yet not amazed at the tone that immediately comes out on the BB in a thread like this. Everyone complains about the system here and what is wrong and needs fixing etc etc. Then someone obviously puts a lot of time and energy into trying to do something about it and provide people with what they, and people are already being naysayers, or are suspicious b/c the founders names weren't plastered all over the front page. I have not had time to examine the whole thing, but it sounds like it could be just what people in NA have been asking for.

I applaud anyone who takes the time and effort to try something new. I will be interested to see how it develops over time.

Thank-you.

[PineTreeFarm]

Once a TB demonstrates the sport capability that you discuss, it is considered suitable for sport and thus eligible for the CS. A TB may have a race history, that just cannot be its only history (unless it has already produced offspring shown to be suitable for sport). We are fully supportive of the TB in NA breeding. I myself own Zaloubet Zaffiro at TB family WB stallion and his mom an F1 cross. There are breeders doing great things with TBs. Nancy Whitehead and the leading 6 yo YJC mare Rendezvous, out of a TB by a TB family stallion, immediately come to mind.

For a final example, you can take a very good working hunter TB mare and breed her to Coconut Grove, and we will proudly register the offspring. What we do not want is a mare that has never jumped a fence or entered a dressage ring. This puts our quality directive and brand name development, which benefits every breeder who chooses to use the CS, at too much risk.

I hope that this clears things up.

Robert
Continental Studbook

Well then you couldn't have approved Herocity. He had primarily a race record.
So then what about a warmblood mare that has no show record, goes right to the breeding shed. I'd bet you'd approve that mare. LOL
It may come s a surprsie to you but there are many TV mares that produce nice Hunter performance offspring that never saw a show ring.

If you REALLY want to set up a registry that breeds hunters perhaps you should have consulted USHJA. They are setting up a new registry and a futurity ( psst. They take TB's ).

There are some folks on this board that are quite involved with HB horses. They are also a valuable source of info.

Just curious as it seems you want to support Hunter Breeding ( and that's great) but you don't seem to know much about the US market.

For now, I'm looking forward to the USHJA Futurity. Affiliated with the NGB, set up by the Hunter Breeding Committee. All that good stuff.

I'm just disappointed that once again, the main market in the US isn't considered.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Well, I received their press release today, and, like everyone else, my first question was *Who* started this and *What's* their agenda. Kudos to them/Robert for coming back here and trying to answer the questions that, I believe, many had (including me.) Trying to be open and above board—with a little honesty and integrity thrown in—is always welcome, IMHO.

Personally, their press release piqued my interest—hey, I'll read anything! :lol: Before I dismiss them outright, I want to see what they have to say. :lol: But since I found the LARGE bottle of Yellow Tail's Pinot Grigio on sale at Giant yesterday for only $12, AND since I've had a horrible day at work (discoving I've shrunk by 1 inch over the past 3 years) I'm ready to spout my opinion. Ha! Can you spell "Dutch Courage?" :lol:

So. Here goes ...

First, before we condemn, can we listen? Can we all put aside our prejudices, our alliances to ________ registry and give these folks a chance? Not much of one, grant you, just a little tiny one. Because personally, I would very much like to support something uniquely American...because we are *UNIQUE*. Well and truly unique—our ability to reinvent ourselves—to create anew and make over—is a wonder.

So the question I pose is this: why would we NOT want to give them a chance? Do we HAVE to play the European-registry game...one where the deck is stacked against us?

Maybe they've not got it right ... but holy smokes. At least they're trying to DO something.

I'm probably going to regret posting this ... but my cursor is heading toward the "Post Quick Reply" ... and I'm running and ducking for cover.

[buschkn]

I think it looks like a great idea from what I can tell so far and truly seems to be offering what a lot of other registries here aren't. Lower fees, less bureaucracy, the ability to make your own breeding decisions instead of only choosing from 100 stallions b/c someone in Germany says so, etc. Obviously there are things still to be worked through or addressed, but kudos for tackling the issues the NA breeders face.

Also, I hardly think they are ignoring or excluding the "main market" in the US by not directly addressing HB. Certainly Hunters are very large market in the US, and there is the possibility of exclusion of some nice TB mares based on the rules but you don't have to choose this means for registering your foals if you want to breed with unproven OTTB mares. There are many other options available. I love my OTTBs, btw.

I would LOOOOVE to see people come on the board with legitimate questions or concerns to be addressed rather than accusations or statements of what is already disappointing about a new idea/concept. Rather than say "you are doing this wrong" why not say "this is something you may not have considers" or "have you thought about xy&z b/c that is important to me in my chosen registry". Again, not every registry can be everything for everyone, but CS sounds like a step in the right direction for what NA breeders are looking to accomplish. Good Luck!

[Oldenburg Mom]

Hey, buschkn, that's the spirit! They may turn out to be ... useless. Who knows at this stage? But the problems we face here, like ourselves, are unique. European registries do not have the same space issues, nor the TB base. And I hate to be such a PITA cheerleader, but who says we can't do it better? (<--that statement was the Pinot talking! :lol:)

The pursuit of excellence is a tough road ... a tough journey, filled with many disappointing potholes along the way. I think of the gut-wrenching issues Home Again Farm has faced...and I am constantly amazed that she continues to breed. Bravo! MaryLou.

[Continental Studbook]

Well then you couldn't have approved Herocity. He had primarily a race record.
So then what about a warmblood mare that has no show record, goes right to the breeding shed. I'd bet you'd approve that mare. LOL
It may come s a surprsie to you but there are many TV mares that produce nice Hunter performance offspring that never saw a show ring.

If you REALLY want to set up a registry that breeds hunters perhaps you should have consulted USHJA. They are setting up a new registry and a futurity ( psst. They take TB's ).

There are some folks on this board that are quite involved with HB horses. They are also a valuable source of info.

Just curious as it seems you want to support Hunter Breeding ( and that's great) but you don't seem to know much about the US market.

For now, I'm looking forward to the USHJA Futurity. Affiliated with the NGB, set up by the Hunter Breeding Committee. All that good stuff.

I'm just disappointed that once again, the main market in the US isn't considered.

We accept TBs out of hunter parents. It might not be clear in all of the information, but suitability for sport is spelled out in the rules as also being a foal or horse whose parents were suitable in the sport. So a TB filly, that has never stepped foot in a ring, from a hunter mare and a hunter stallion is eligible just as equally as any hunter WB. Your hunter TB filly foals born in CS can be bred to other hunter TBs until the end of time, with exactly the same status, treatment and recognition as a WB.

I would really encourage the TB crowd to be more open minded and digest the information more. The message may not be clear within all of the information, but we are really trying to encourage development of sport horses from other sport horses. We call this purpose based breeding. The ONLY issue that has developed is an injured OTTB mare which cannot display her capability. Do we really need to go that far? If that last inch is too much to overcome, then indeed USHJA is a better choice. We should politely agree that we disagree and move on. We are absolutely 100% committed to developing a quality (control) brand name that breeders can proudly display upon their herds, and we do not feel that accepting injured OTTB mares contributes to that goal.

Our plan is to be excellent at what we do. It was never to be all things to all possible pertubations. If the CS cannot meet your needs, we are sorry.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[Continental Studbook]

I think it looks like a great idea from what I can tell so far and truly seems to be offering what a lot of other registries here aren't. Lower fees, less bureaucracy, the ability to make your own breeding decisions instead of only choosing from 100 stallions b/c someone in Germany says so, etc. Obviously there are things still to be worked through or addressed, but kudos for tackling the issues the NA breeders face.

Also, I hardly think they are ignoring or excluding the "main market" in the US by not directly addressing HB. Certainly Hunters are very large market in the US, and there is the possibility of exclusion of some nice TB mares based on the rules but you don't have to choose this means for registering your foals if you want to breed with unproven OTTB mares. There are many other options available. I love my OTTBs, btw.

I would LOOOOVE to see people come on the board with legitimate questions or concerns to be addressed rather than accusations or statements of what is already disappointing about a new idea/concept. Rather than say "you are doing this wrong" why not say "this is something you may not have considers" or "have you thought about xy&z b/c that is important to me in my chosen registry". Again, not every registry can be everything for everyone, but CS sounds like a step in the right direction for what NA breeders are looking to accomplish. Good Luck!

If somehow we have screwed up the message regarding hunter breeding, please help us figure out how to correct it. This absolutely was intended be done right, and that is why we went out of the way to explicitly include 100% TBs. We will listen to any and all suggestions on how to handle the HB and working hunter markets better.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[sfstable]

This is what I am "reading into" the TB issue (feel free to correct me if I am incorrect):

If a TB mare is able to "prove" herself as a "sport horse" either on the merits of her parents, on the merit of herself in sport, or by the merits of her offspring's performance in sport than she would be considered suitable for the Continental Studbook. I don't think that this sounds too bad :) Why would one want to breed a horse for sport that couldn't pass one of the above requirements ? Aren't we trying to produce a sport horse ?

If the mare needs to use the offspring approval route, then breed the TB in another registry (for example: use the KWPN who automatically approves a TB for breeding). Use those offspring to prove what the mare can produce. If the mare is unable to produce offspring that are able to prove themselves as sporthorses, then this would be a mare that shouldn't be used for sporthorse breeding. Just my humble two cents :)

From my browsing on the website looks like quite a bit of thought and work went into this venture.

[Maryanne Nicpon]

No, that isn't the case. Myself, I have a history of using both KWPN-NA and AHHA. My mares were approved NA-SF, and then it folded. I approached others about my ideas of what would make an ideal NA studbook. The rest is history.

The sole reason not to plaster names on the internet was that we incorrectly thought it would reduce drama; however, the opposite happened. For that we apologize to everyone.

There will be a stories about the rejection of Darco for Mr. Passman's breeding, but the CS was already well under way when that occured. However, we are please that this excellent Darco foal will represent one of our first registrations.

Robert
Continental Studbook


But the other two founders of the CS were BOARD members of the AHHA who (probably for several reasons) became disgruntled when the rules did not go their way. That is fact.

[equestrianism]

There are a LOT of TB stallions used in European WB breeding who were race horses only. Cottage Son comes to mind, and he was listed as an example of the horses they are looking for. Laurie's Crusador was an OTTB. There are many, many others. Furioso raced but never won; I believe Laudanum may have raced a few times. Given that this registry seems to be Holsteiner based in large part, I wonder what they think about Ladykiller, who might have raced himself (can't find a race record for him quickly) but was certainly from a very long line of successful to moderately successful race horses. Sacramento Song was also an OTTB.

Too many of the TB sires in all the registries were racehorses who also sired racehorses. I find it somewhat peculiar that when the Germans verbands are working with the German racing authoriities to showcase TB racers for WB breeding, this new group is so blind that they cannot see value in the long history of success in using TB race genetics for sport.

Edited to add that Ladykiller was a failed racehorse. Found this in his biography on The Horse Magazine:The best TB horses that's been used in sport horse breeding come from France, Italy, UK and even US. Germany and their born and bred TB:s has had little much to do with the top TB-sires in sport horses.

[Oldenburg Mom]

But the other two founders of the CS were BOARD members of the AHHA who (probably for several reasons) became disgruntled when the rules did not go their way. That is fact.

So what?

They didn't like the way it was run or they didn't like the rules, or whatever they did or didn't like. They went off and started their own venture...can't criticize them for that! How many times have we said on these boards, "If you don't like the rules, go start your own registry." Well, I guess they didn't ... and I guess they did!!! :lol:

After spending some time on their site last night, I think the idea of not doing inspections, if I understood everything correctly, is a flaw. There is nothing like having a critter in front of you, being able to touch it, look wherever you want, watch the movement, etc. etc. Again, unless I've misunderstood (always a possibility) photos really aren't going to get the job done. JMHO.

[talloaks]

Pardon me, but this just looks like a mail order registry where you send your money and get your registration papers. What else does this studbook do for anyone as a breeder?:confused::confused::confused:

[DownYonder]

I haven't had a chance to explore the site in depth so perhaps someone can answer this question. Will this registry try to become a member of the WBFSH?

[DownYonder]

And another question - I did see on the website that Arabian mares are not welcome in this registry, which I guess is not surprising considering that the founders of this registry were Holsteiner - i.e., jumper - breeders. However, there are some people out there breeding kick-ass dressage foals by putting sport type Arabian mares to WB stallions. Are mares from that type of cross (WB/Arabian) also excluded from this registry?

[buschkn]

Pardon me, but this just looks like a mail order registry where you send your money and get your registration papers. What else does this studbook do for anyone as a breeder?:confused::confused::confused:


What does any other registry do for breeders other than restrict their choices on what horses they can or can't breed to? As for not having inspections, I agree that pictures don't tell the whole story, but I don't agree that it is a mistake to not have inspections. A vet evaluation for any major confo defects or hereditary issues, and photos of basic conformation to determine if mares are allowed in seems reasonable. When was the last time you went to an inspection and a mare with straight legs and somewhat reasonable conformation was NOT accepted? So it saves you significant time and money and stress on the animals to avoid trailering over gods creation to have someone nod and say yup her legs are straight, she can be bred.

Certainly I think inspections have great educational value, but from a breeding perspective, people are going to breed what mares they want and most get into the books anyway so whats the difference. This sounds more performance based, with the intent to breed successful horses for SPORT. So the proof will be in the pudding. If people breed horses that are successful in sport, then the market will support those breeders, and if they don't, it won't. Ultimately the registry has little to do with it IMO.

My primary petty little beef is with the name. The registry name is ok, but if I choose this registry and start breeding with CS what do I say when someone asks me what kind of horse it is? A Continental? A Continental Sporthorse? A Continental WB? Lol. :)

[vineyridge]

The best TB horses that's been used in sport horse breeding come from France, Italy, UK and even US. Germany and their born and bred TB:s has had little much to do with the top TB-sires in sport horses.

Where Germany is special is that they have kept alive the Bay Ronald and Teddy sire lines that are dead almost everywhere else in the TB world. All over Europe, TB race breeders are using German TBs for their unique bloodlines today. Monsun, Shirocco, Acatenango, Surumu, and many others are a reservoir of rare to us bloodlines. Nowhere else can Birkhahn, Neckar, Ticino, and Herold still be be found in pedigrees.

[Oldenburg Mom]

A vet evaluation for any major confo defects or hereditary issues...

Whose vet? I would suggest a conflict of interest if it is the inspectee's vet (is inspectee a real word???:lol:) And even if there is not a conflict of interest, the PERCEPTION, is important.

[vineyridge]

We accept TBs out of hunter parents. It might not be clear in all of the information, but suitability for sport is spelled out in the rules as also being a foal or horse whose parents were suitable in the sport. So a TB filly, that has never stepped foot in a ring, from a hunter mare and a hunter stallion is eligible just as equally as any hunter WB. Your hunter TB filly foals born in CS can be bred to other hunter TBs until the end of time, with exactly the same status, treatment and recognition as a WB.

I would really encourage the TB crowd to be more open minded and digest the information more. The message may not be clear within all of the information, but we are really trying to encourage development of sport horses from other sport horses. We call this purpose based breeding. The ONLY issue that has developed is an injured OTTB mare which cannot display her capability. Do we really need to go that far? If that last inch is too much to overcome, then indeed USHJA is a better choice. We should politely agree that we disagree and move on. We are absolutely 100% committed to developing a quality (control) brand name that breeders can proudly display upon their herds, and we do not feel that accepting injured OTTB mares contributes to that goal.

Our plan is to be excellent at what we do. It was never to be all things to all possible pertubations. If the CS cannot meet your needs, we are sorry.

Robert
Continental Studbook

I think I find this attitude offensive. The one thing that makes America unique besides its show hunter industry is the prevalence of the TB mare base. Not even in the UK and Ireland are so many TBs produced. A truly American focused registry would try and come up with a procedure to utilize the base that is already existing instead of dismissing it so cavalierly. If one looks at horses like Idle Dice and so very many other of the top class US TB jumpers from the USET glory days, they jumped just as high and fast and the European WBs of today--and almost all of the were OTTBs with undistinguished parentage. So now we are told that they were really worthless.

Just because courses have changed to favor non-TBs, and people are buying and riding horses for those courses, doesn't mean that the genetics to produce world class horses aren't still there in the mare base when crossed with WBs. Fred pointed out the main fallacy in this studbook's approach when she mentioned the relatively short breeding life of a mare. By the time the offspring are proven, the mare is old and at the end of her breeding life.

[Hi Jump]

I see the formation of this Continental Studbook as simply being formulated by a group to meet specific needs in the industry. Each and every registry offer benefits to breeders, but since breeders have differing locations and breeding goals , it is up to the individual breeders to find a registry that works well with their own breeding goals. The Continental Studbook offers one more option for breeders . Take a look at their website, read what they offer before making assumptions, they are not trying to serve all sporthorse breeding, or negate it, they certainly have requirements for the breeding stock to be enlisted, but are bringing a new breeder friendly approach that will be a fit for some breeders with like minded needs. I am a current member and have horses approved for about 8 registries and I welcome such an option.

Lisa Paulson, Synergy Sporthorses
Standing Holstein stallion Cotopaxi and Hanoverian stallion Raffaello
http://www.synergysporthorses.net

[equestrianism]

Where Germany is special is that they have kept alive the Bay Ronald and Teddy sire lines that are dead almost everywhere else in the TB world. All over Europe, TB race breeders are using German TBs for their unique bloodlines today. Monsun, Shirocco, Acatenango, Surumu, and many others are a reservoir of rare to us bloodlines. Nowhere else can Birkhahn, Neckar, Ticino, and Herold still be be found in pedigrees.Cottage Son a great grand son of Dark Ronald may have been influential in Holstein but there's no way I would say that Germany are thinking about taking care of the bloodlines of Bay Ronald or Teddy in no other sence then in by an overuse of stallions descending from the C-line as in Capitol and friends.

Little french born Teddy (and father Ajax) are very much common in i.e the French horses and is represented in Jaguar Mail SF no less den five times within the six first generations you find him behind the sire line of Ibrahim - Almé - Jalisco B - Quidam de Revel all four SF -horses and also a quartet of some of the most influtential stallions ever used in France and SF.

Another very much influential stallion is Quidam de Revels grand sire Nankin SF who comes with mutiple posts of Bay Ronald, Dark Ronald Teddy and Ajax blood. In France you also find the lines of Dark Ronald son Son-in-Law represented in Furioso, Fair Play III SF, Qredo de Paulstra SF.

Teddys blood lines are also represented in Irelend via Imperius ISH, in KWPN via Lucky Boy, Abgar and so on.

I've studied the bloodlines of TB in sporthorses for more than 25 years and each and every time some one comes up with an idea that a German bred TB would be of any use in breeding there always seems like it's been a fluke that the horse in mind ever came to any success or you can trace it back to another countries breeding system.

For me any success representing the blood lines of Ticino, Neckar and Birkhahn comes despite of them being represented in a pedigree and not because of it. A very much debated stallion in Sweden is the TB-stallion Stravinsky (last seen in England) a beautiful stallion out of Revlon Boy who is out of Blauer Reiter out of Birkahn) This stallion has been passing most of the European studbooks without leavin any remarkable memory behind him.

And regarding the three stallions mentioned above you won't find any of those three behind all time high super stallion Lauries Crusador but you do find a lot of other horses that's proven over and over again to be useful in sport horse breeding.

[Oakstable]

Well said, Lisa.

Options are good.

[equestrianism]

I am amazed and yet not amazed at the tone that immediately comes out on the BB in a thread like this. Everyone complains about the system here and what is wrong and needs fixing etc etc. Then someone obviously puts a lot of time and energy into trying to do something about it and provide people with what they, and people are already being naysayers, or are suspicious b/c the founders names weren't plastered all over the front page. I have not had time to examine the whole thing, but it sounds like it could be just what people in NA have been asking for.

I applaud anyone who takes the time and effort to try something new. I will be interested to see how it develops over time.Often the ones screaming the loudest about changes equals the ones that wouldn't lift a finger of any kind to help out anybody but themselves...

[vineyridge]

Cottage Son a great grand son of Dark Ronald may have been influential in Holstein but there's no way I would say that Germany are thinking about taking care of the bloodlines of Bay Ronald or Teddy in no other sence then in by an overuse of stallions descending from the C-line as in Capitol and friends.

Little french born Teddy (and father Ajax) are very much common in i.e the French horses and is represented in Jaguar Mail SF no less den five times within the six first generations you find him behind the sire line of Ibrahim - Almé - Jalisco B - Quidam de Revel all four SF -horses and also a quartet of some of the most influtential stallions ever used in France and SF.

Another very much influential stallion is Quidam de Revels grand sire Nankin SF who comes with mutiple posts of Bay Ronald, Dark Ronald Teddy and Ajax blood. In France you also find the lines of Dark Ronald son Son-in-Law represented in Furioso, Fair Play III SF, Qredo de Paulstra SF.

Teddys blood lines are also represented in Irelend via Imperius ISH, in KWPN via Lucky Boy, Abgar and so on.

I've studied the bloodlines of TB in sporthorses for more than 25 years and each and every time some one comes up with an idea that a German bred TB would be of any use in breeding there always seems like it's been a fluke that the horse in mind ever came to any success or you can trace it back to another countries breeding system.

For me any success representing the blood lines of Ticino, Neckar and Birkhahn comes despite of them being represented in a pedigree and not because of it. A very much debated stallion in Sweden is the TB-stallion Stravinsky (last seen in England) a beautiful stallion out of Revlon Boy who is out of Blauer Reiter out of Birkahn) This stallion has been passing most of the European studbooks without leavin any remarkable memory behind him.

And regarding the three stallions mentioned above you won't find any of those three behind all time high super stallion Lauries Crusador but you do find a lot of other horses that's proven over and over again to be useful in sport horse breeding.

I'm looking at the rarity of bloodlines from a US perspective. We had Teddy and several of his sons and daughters--Sir Gallahad, Bulldog, Marguerite de Valois, La Troienne, Case Ace, Sun Teddy--either born or imported here. They dominated US breeding for many years. Now his direct lines are either gone or so far back that they are very diluted. There is only ONE living US Teddy sire line left, and that is to Damascus. It's almost extinct due to fads in TB race breeding.

Hyperion is gone, or if not gone, then teetering on the brink in the US. Beau Pere was a direct descendant of Dark Ronald, and his male line is also gone. Ribot still lives on through sons, and Nasrullah may be disappearing. In the US, the mare lines are the place to find the great TBs who were also great sport horse progenitors. It's very depressing.

As to your comments about German TBs in breeding, I'm only going by the pedigrees that created the modern German WBs and the lines that they obviously used, perhaps only because they were local.

[equestrianism]

I'm looking at the rarity of bloodlines from a US perspective. We had Teddy and several of his sons and daughters--Sir Gallahad, Bulldog, Marguerite de Valois, La Troienne, Case Ace, Sun Teddy--either born or imported here. They dominated US breeding for many years. Now his direct lines are either gone or so far back that they are very diluted. There is only ONE living US Teddy sire line left, and that is to Damascus. It's almost extinct due to fads in TB race breeding.

Hyperion is gone, or if not gone, then teetering on the brink in the US. Beau Pere was a direct descendant of Dark Ronald, and his male line is also gone. Ribot still lives on through sons, and Nasrullah may be disappearing. In the US, the mare lines are the place to find the great TBs who were also great sport horse progenitors. It's very depressing.

As to your comments about German TBs in breeding, I'm only going by the pedigrees that created the modern German WBs and the lines that they obviously used, perhaps only because they were local.It's almost admirable to manage to sort out the bloodlines of Nasrullah in any part of the world! Don't you have a lot of descendants from Mr Prospector in the US? He's coming around big time in sport horses around the globe!

Saddlers Wells is another horse you should look out for in sport horse breeding purposes, his pedigree is excellent and even though he cost a lot to breed to there must be some offspring out there for people to lay there hands on one way or another.

But I'm really puzzled about what you say about Ribot. There were at least four horses descending from Ribot in the eventing at the WEG in Jerez, Spain and some of those horses I'm quite sure were born and raised in the US. It would be a tragedy for the world if those lines weren't kept intact cause they've been very much influential in sport horse breeding and far most in eventing.

[Waterwitch]

I agree that it would be nice if everyone would keep an open mind and let the CS principals lay out their offer. Sounds like they are already open to tweaking the things that are not quite clear.

I for one look forward to finding out a little more about how the CS will incorporate the frequently ignored Irish bloodlines into its studbook. What a refreshing approach to acknowledge the contributions these horses have made to sport without keeping them "segregated".

Kudos to CS for responding to a uniquely North American need.

[Alix]

I agree, the first thing these people need to do is to tell us who they are and how and why they got started on this. Then where they intend to make their base headquarters etc. What is their accessibility etc. There have been so many others that have started something like this and floundered and I think that breeders are less likely to rise to the bait because we have "been been there and done that" already.

[Equilibrium]

My opinion may not be valued as I'm in Ireland but I think this could be a good thing.

As far as the TB's go I don't think it's the intent to not to include them. If you had an ex-racehorse who bred a hunter breeding champion they aren't going to say otherwise. Wouldn't that be a bit silly? I would suggest they take a look at each mare's individual pedigree and look at them as well. Even the new Irish Warmblood studbook is doing that with TB mares. But the new studbook is going for quality why get into an uproar. There are some very good TB mares out there who are making contributions to sport and some not so great ones who maybe shouldn't be bred. This seems like a way to keep the better ones producing.

With regards to TB bloodlines, I wish any studbook would look at individual pedigrees and try to see the bloodlines which have made a difference over the years even coming from the mare side.

And I do agree with other posters who say a warmblood with no performance close up through mare line but by a flash stallion isn't making a contribution either just because she's a warmblood. If it's truly to be about performance and not flashy babies all mares should have screenings with regards to pedigree, conformation, progeny, and her peformance if there is any.

I know we all think of America is having the most TB's, but countries like Ireland, Britan, and Australia all have quite a big TB base and some do make it into warmblood breeding. The countries that don't have big TB mare bases are where the big studbooks are set up. This is why I inquired about our new Irish Warmblood studbook with regards to TB's. As soon as I get my paperwork filled out I'm putting my 2 TB mares through to the inspection process. It seems they will be looking at their pedigrees and the individual. It may amount to nothing, but I was pleased to see they are taking into account the fact that it is a country where many TB's are produced.

Terri

[vineyridge]

There are two Ribot line stallions in the US that I personally have great hopes for in the production of sport TBs. One is Roanoke, a 17 hand stallion who is elderly and now has a cheap stud fee in a very regional market, but has produced steeplechase winners and at least one advanced event horse. Another, who has just started his stud career at a very advanced age is Cetewayo. I believe the jumps racing people may be using him as well.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/cetewayo
http://www.pedigreequery.com/roanoke2

Another stallion that I hope will make it to sporthorse land is Siphon.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/siphon
He has been identified as one of the ten worst values in race breeding in the US, but one who throws beautiful babies. If his get have inherited the sport horse qualities of their sire's pedigree, then he will be something to look forward to when his stud fee slips to a sport horse value.

You are right about Mr. P's pedigree for sport. We see so many descendants here, and he has such a reputation for throwing iffy legs that we tend to forget the potential inherent in his lines.

[LisaO]

Won't make me leave AHHA - even with all it's 'warts' - no registry is perfect. If I weren't breeding in AHHA, I would still choose a registry that actually looks at the animals at least once - I think it's an important tool for the individual breeder as well as for the organization to track their progress in producing quality.

This is just one more 'stamp' for horses' butts...or owner's egos. I thought it was interesting that I just received a 'Warmbloods Today' free copy and inside was an ad for yet another registry, based apparently on the strength of a single stallion. Crazy.

[sid]

I apologize if I seemed a bit suspicious at the beginning of this thread. I just like a lot of transparecy and I surely couldn't find who the heck developed this. One should never, ever hide the creators of a business endeavor, the business mission and the history of the principals.

[Continental Studbook]

I agree that it would be nice if everyone would keep an open mind and let the CS principals lay out their offer. Sounds like they are already open to tweaking the things that are not quite clear.

I for one look forward to finding out a little more about how the CS will incorporate the frequently ignored Irish bloodlines into its studbook. What a refreshing approach to acknowledge the contributions these horses have made to sport without keeping them "segregated".

Kudos to CS for responding to a uniquely North American need.

The CS is designed to address all four sports without bias. The ISH was eligible for the CS based on routine top WBFSH ranking in eventing. Even though eventing may be evolving due to pressures, the data was clear.

Robert
Continental Studook

[Continental Studbook]

I agree, the first thing these people need to do is to tell us who they are and how and why they got started on this. Then where they intend to make their base headquarters etc. What is their accessibility etc. There have been so many others that have started something like this and floundered and I think that breeders are less likely to rise to the bait because we have "been been there and done that" already.

Who was clearly laid out in this thread. Why is explained in excruciating detail all over the website. Where and when is described in detail on the contact page.

There is no mystery and hidden meaning here.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[Continental Studbook]

I think it looks like a great idea from what I can tell so far and truly seems to be offering what a lot of other registries here aren't. Lower fees, less bureaucracy, the ability to make your own breeding decisions instead of only choosing from 100 stallions b/c someone in Germany says so, etc. Obviously there are things still to be worked through or addressed, but kudos for tackling the issues the NA breeders face.

Also, I hardly think they are ignoring or excluding the "main market" in the US by not directly addressing HB. Certainly Hunters are very large market in the US, and there is the possibility of exclusion of some nice TB mares based on the rules but you don't have to choose this means for registering your foals if you want to breed with unproven OTTB mares. There are many other options available. I love my OTTBs, btw.

I would LOOOOVE to see people come on the board with legitimate questions or concerns to be addressed rather than accusations or statements of what is already disappointing about a new idea/concept. Rather than say "you are doing this wrong" why not say "this is something you may not have considers" or "have you thought about xy&z b/c that is important to me in my chosen registry". Again, not every registry can be everything for everyone, but CS sounds like a step in the right direction for what NA breeders are looking to accomplish. Good Luck!

When the CS says hunters, it means every aspect of hunters including hunter breeder. Producing a zone HB champion or reserve champion would definitely be considered production proof for example.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[Continental Studbook]

I haven't had a chance to explore the site in depth so perhaps someone can answer this question. Will this registry try to become a member of the WBFSH?

The CS was carefully designed to be completely compatible with the WBFSH. For example, every WBFSH-member registered horse has a path to entry one way or another. It will be at least 5-7 years before WBFSH membership has any practical benefit since it will take that long for the first CS foals to be competing at levels tracked by the WBFSH. However, it is intended to apply for membership much earlier to eliminate this issue.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[Oldenburg Mom]

So, let me be very direct:

Robert,

Another issue: the most difficult problems the US breeder faces is, IMHO, twofold: training youngsters and getting buyers and breeders/sellers together. Any comment on these issues?

And just to really put you on the spot—in the friendliest possible way, of course—where do you see yourselves in, say, five-years?

Oh, and one more thing, whether you are wildly successful, or a dismal failure, well done for having the guts to try.

[Continental Studbook]

What does any other registry do for breeders other than restrict their choices on what horses they can or can't breed to? As for not having inspections, I agree that pictures don't tell the whole story, but I don't agree that it is a mistake to not have inspections. A vet evaluation for any major confo defects or hereditary issues, and photos of basic conformation to determine if mares are allowed in seems reasonable. When was the last time you went to an inspection and a mare with straight legs and somewhat reasonable conformation was NOT accepted? So it saves you significant time and money and stress on the animals to avoid trailering over gods creation to have someone nod and say yup her legs are straight, she can be bred.

Certainly I think inspections have great educational value, but from a breeding perspective, people are going to breed what mares they want and most get into the books anyway so whats the difference. This sounds more performance based, with the intent to breed successful horses for SPORT. So the proof will be in the pudding. If people breed horses that are successful in sport, then the market will support those breeders, and if they don't, it won't. Ultimately the registry has little to do with it IMO.

My primary petty little beef is with the name. The registry name is ok, but if I choose this registry and start breeding with CS what do I say when someone asks me what kind of horse it is? A Continental? A Continental Sporthorse? A Continental WB? Lol. :)

Most inspections in the US are mere shadows of those performed in Europe. So many inspections are less than 5-10 foals or mares. Also, since mares are very rarely rejected at any inspection, the inspection has no real impact on breeding production of any registry. Their rules of what is eligible to come to the inspection have far greater impact on breeding production. If registries practiced aggressive culling where only the top 1/3 were accepted, the situation would be different. This provides very little value at all to the breeder. Instead, there is greater value in studying and competing horses on the show circuit where there may 20-50 animals or more competing side by side.

The CS determine that every breeder should have access regardless of geography. That is the only position that can truly represent North America, and it is quite amazing that no one has ever taken that position before. Actually it is not when understanding than no one has ever attempted to do anything but duplicate the European system.

Shipping a pregnant mare or foal is too much risk and too high cost in North America. Stories of breeders traveling over 5 hours each way, staying overnight, and undergoing extreme stress to stand 5 minutes in front of a judge that may or may not understand the sport breeding of the horse are just unreasonable. The CS decided to innovate with a new approach that will serve everyone in ever corner of North America. It is completely inaccurate to characterize the system as a rubber stamp, a mail in service or any less effective than an in person inspection.

For those desiring even greater quality recognition, the CS offers the 5P PRODUCTION INDICATOR system which subjects mare to the same testing as stallions. It is based on 5 key metrics determined to be important in horse production.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[crestline]

I think it's an interesting idea and from what I've read so far it looks like a great deal of thought has gone into it.

I do, however, have to agree that there really should be some way to apply for registration options for OTTB mares to be a studbook that serves the US. We have had several OTTB mares and clients with countless others that are simply fabulous producers of sport horses. Often these mares are lame from track injuries so are not suitable to show. By the time offspring of these mares are old enough to really prove themselves a breeder could have several years of unregisterable offspring sitting around waiting for one to not only go to a knowledgable riding home...BUT a knowledgable riding home that shows....forget it if someone buys your nice safe, sane, talented and easy horse to pleasure ride dressage...that won't show up and then you're stuck hoping the next offspring makes it to a show person. It seems to me that it is going to exclude a huge number of really, really nice mares...while a iffy quality WB mare can sail through no problem....?? Or did I miss something in the mare approval part for WB's...sorry haven't read through it all as the TB part really tripped me up.

So I commend a new idea going forward but I really strongly think that it might need a tweak in the OTTB department. My foundation mare would have been ineligible for YEARS... and she produced some amazing kids...and now grandkids for us. I had two other INCREDIBLE OTTB mares early on and they also wouldn't have been eligible for most of their breeding careers until their foals grew up and hit competition age.
I have another OTTB mare that was a track reject and then was a SERIOUS show hunter in So Cal. Obviously that one would be acceptable due to her show record but if I found a relative of hers that looked like her that hadn't make to the show ring you can bet your last dollar I would snap it up and bring it here to breed. This mare is outproducing most WB mares I've ever met...it would be a shame to exclude some of these TB treasures.

It seems like saying that all OTTB's aren't suitable is like saying that all WB's are...I've seen plenty of them that shouldn't reproduce either, lol.

Is their any way that the studbook would consider the huge market out there of quality OTTB...it seems for a Studbook that is here to serve the US that the OTTB should have it's place. What if there was a special approval process for an OTTB where a video of the mare could be sent...perhaps with her first foal...and approved on a case by case basis by quality of the mare (with injuries taken into acct if mild lameness is there) and also judged on the quality of the foal. Just an idea... I know it may be too late for input but the CS is an interesting concept so hopefully it can fill a need.

[PineTreeFarm]

Also, I hardly think they are ignoring or excluding the "main market" in the US by not directly addressing HB. Certainly Hunters are very large market in the US, and there is the possibility of exclusion of some nice TB mares based on the rules but you don't have to choose this means for registering your foals if you want to breed with unproven OTTB mares. There are many other options available. I love my OTTBs, btw.

I would LOOOOVE to see people come on the board with legitimate questions or concerns to be addressed rather than accusations or statements of what is already disappointing about a new idea/concept. Rather than say "you are doing this wrong" why not say "this is something you may not have considers" or "have you thought about xy&z b/c that is important to me in my chosen registry". Again, not every registry can be everything for everyone, but CS sounds like a step in the right direction for what NA breeders are looking to accomplish. Good Luck!

Umm. The point was Hunters ARE the largest segment of the US market.
This new registry 'says' in includes Hunters. American bred Hunters are often WB stallion X TB mare. The TB mares used may or may not have proven themselves in sport.
Sorry you felt my questions were not 'legitimate' but I really don't care. LOL. The registry isn't for me, glad it works for you.
If you had read carefully you might have noted that I suggested USHJA as a source and also several posters on this forum that are actually breeding hunters that are winning. I'm sure some of those groups might have been interested in how the new registry will go about breeding Hunters.
If you read that as 'you are doing wrong' perhaps you need to read more carefully.:eek:

[Continental Studbook]

I apologize if I seemed a bit suspicious at the beginning of this thread. I just like a lot of transparecy and I surely couldn't find who the heck developed this. One should never, ever hide the creators of a business endeavor, the business mission and the history of the principals.

If you have any questions, call, email or fax. Nothing will be avoided.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[Oakstable]

If the founders had named themselves at the beginning, they would have been criticized for being on some kind of an ego trip.

They weren't hiding. Their farms were listed in the Links session.

Anyway, I agree on the basic concept.

I have two geldings out of a well bred imported Trakehner mare by two different performance tested stallions from Europe. Neither are registered because we couldn't get to an inspection in the allowed time frame. I could have registered them Half Trakehner but that doesn't work for marketing purposes. Their sires are well known and popular: Pablo and Routinier.

[Continental Studbook]

So, let me be very direct:

Robert,

Another issue: the most difficult problems the US breeder faces is, IMHO, twofold: training youngsters and getting buyers and breeders/sellers together. Any comment on these issues?

And just to really put you on the spot—in the friendliest possible way, of course—where do you see yourselves in, say, five-years?

Oh, and one more thing, whether you are wildly successful, or a dismal failure, well done for having the guts to try.

Thank you. We are determined to be wildly successful. If this was a fly by night thought, I can assure the development would have been much shorter. We had 10 major revisions to breeding rules, at least 5 major revisions to the globe trademark, and at least 5 major revisions to the design of the registration papers. The Mission Statement alone took one month to complete. Those are examples of the level of detail applied to everything.

Focus on commerce and marketing is a very large priority of the Studbook as explained in the Mission Statement and Commerce sections. There will be sales offerings on the website, databases, sales distributions into the market, breeder co-marketing, and other ideas under development, etc. Instead of marketing to breeders only, the CS understands it must be equally marketed to professionals and buyers who never breed. Importantly, the CS will work very hard to establish a brand name among competitors and buyers to end to the incorrect impression that the first place to look is in Europe. That is why recognition of a quality brand name is a repeated theme in the website and in my posts. We will never compromise this position on brand name.

We are recruiting a number of professionals who also breed, and they are very favorable to the Studbook because of bureaucracy reduction and efficiency. They have no use for many of the "features" of registries. We should consider some ways to bring the two groups together. All of the big pros that I know are always looking for top horses.

Re 5 years.... The Studbook was designed to have no pressure to compromise breeding direction or rules in order to survive, so it will still be around. We would suggest that the CS will be a well recognized name in the industry, first CS offspring will be displaying their abilities against imports in young horse classes, the first top level horses will be on the radar, and there will be a significant collection of domestic breeders changing the marketing dynamics without fragmentation

Robert
Continental Studbook

[Hi Jump]

Oakstable, many, many a time I have had mare owners challenged to get mares delicately in foal, or with new foals at their sides transported to an inspection site they are eligible for. This is just one aspect of the Continental Studbook that is appealing for some breeders in that situation. I personally feel belonging to multiple organizations as a stallion owner enables mareowners to choose what is best serving them.

There are a lot of points that breeders will have slightly differing needs , coming together in the registry of your choice can rally for improvements that individuals would be hard pressed to do instigate change alone. Maybe instead of attacking any registries principals we should choose the ones we believe in and work with them to strengthen and improve the industry in ways that serve us all better.

Lisa, Synergy Sporthorses
Home to stamm 776 Holstein stallion Cotopaxi and elite Hanoverian Raffaello
http://www.synergysporthorses.net

[STF]

Good luck to all involoved. No matter what you do change and big ideas is always scrutinized. Time is the only thing that well tell and prove worth. People always want to see the worst of things, it just seems like human nature, but some other may be optomistic as well.
Good luck on your new establishment

[Continental Studbook]

I think it's an interesting idea and from what I've read so far it looks like a great deal of thought has gone into it.

I do, however, have to agree that there really should be some way to apply for registration options for OTTB mares to be a studbook that serves the US. We have had several OTTB mares and clients with countless others that are simply fabulous producers of sport horses. Often these mares are lame from track injuries so are not suitable to show. By the time offspring of these mares are old enough to really prove themselves a breeder could have several years of unregisterable offspring sitting around waiting for one to not only go to a knowledgable riding home...BUT a knowledgable riding home that shows....forget it if someone buys your nice safe, sane, talented and easy horse to pleasure ride dressage...that won't show up and then you're stuck hoping the next offspring makes it to a show person. It seems to me that it is going to exclude a huge number of really, really nice mares...while a iffy quality WB mare can sail through no problem....?? Or did I miss something in the mare approval part for WB's...sorry haven't read through it all as the TB part really tripped me up.

So I commend a new idea going forward but I really strongly think that it might need a tweak in the OTTB department. My foundation mare would have been ineligible for YEARS... and she produced some amazing kids...and now grandkids for us. I had two other INCREDIBLE OTTB mares early on and they also wouldn't have been eligible for most of their breeding careers until their foals grew up and hit competition age.
I have another OTTB mare that was a track reject and then was a SERIOUS show hunter in So Cal. Obviously that one would be acceptable due to her show record but if I found a relative of hers that looked like her that hadn't make to the show ring you can bet your last dollar I would snap it up and bring it here to breed. This mare is outproducing most WB mares I've ever met...it would be a shame to exclude some of these TB treasures.

It seems like saying that all OTTB's aren't suitable is like saying that all WB's are...I've seen plenty of them that shouldn't reproduce either, lol.

Is their any way that the studbook would consider the huge market out there of quality OTTB...it seems for a Studbook that is here to serve the US that the OTTB should have it's place. What if there was a special approval process for an OTTB where a video of the mare could be sent...perhaps with her first foal...and approved on a case by case basis by quality of the mare (with injuries taken into acct if mild lameness is there) and also judged on the quality of the foal. Just an idea... I know it may be too late for input but the CS is an interesting concept so hopefully it can fill a need.

The TB sport horse is not differentiated from the WB in suitability. Only the TB race horse is differentiated. The CS does not award to higher status to either WB or TB in sport. They have exactly equal status and opportunities in the Studbook.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[buschkn]

I think if you want to breed injured OTTB mares to the stallions of your choice there are plenty of options to choose from. If this registry chooses not to accept those mares wihtout evidence of pedigree, performance, or progency deemed successful for sport, as a sporthorse registry I respect that. Personally, I am glad they do not just categorically choose to accept an OTTB unless she has proven herself worthy for sport in some way. Are we not breeding sport horses? There are MANY OTTBs who are exceptional sport horses, and sport horse producers. It sounds like they will readily be accepted into the books. The OTTBs who aren't, are not, from what I can tell. It doesn't sound sound like this should be a problem for most breeders here.

[Continental Studbook]

I think if you want to breed injured OTTB mares to the stallions of your choice there are plenty of options to choose from. If this registry chooses not to accept those mares wihtout evidence of pedigree, performance, or progency deemed successful for sport, as a sporthorse registry I respect that. Personally, I am glad they do not just categorically choose to accept an OTTB unless she has proven herself worthy for sport in some way. Are we not breeding sport horses? There are MANY OTTBs who are exceptional sport horses, and sport horse producers. It sounds like they will readily be accepted into the books. The OTTBs who aren't, are not, from what I can tell. It doesn't sound sound like this should be a problem for most breeders here.

That is a very accurate interpretation. It just became apparent to me that some may interpret our text on OTTB to mean all former race horses, which would be wrong. It means horses direct from the track that have not yet demonstrated any suitability in sport. Once the race horse demonstrates suitability in sport (through the multiple options), the CS considers it a TB sport horse with exactly the same opportunities as the WB.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[Small Spark]

Is this a WBFSH recognized studbook?

[showjumpers66]

We have a Ribot grandson in our area. One of our TB mares, Raise or Fold (aka Reno) is by this stallion. She has been a good producer for us and her WB sired daughters have been even better.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/brumidi

http://www.pedigreequery.com/raise+or+fold

There are two Ribot line stallions in the US that I personally have great hopes for in the production of sport TBs. One is Roanoke, a 17 hand stallion who is elderly and now has a cheap stud fee in a very regional market, but has produced steeplechase winners and at least one advanced event horse. Another, who has just started his stud career at a very advanced age is Cetewayo. I believe the jumps racing people may be using him as well.

We were very lucky to have aquired Stolen Dawn this past fall. http://www.pedigreequery.com/stolen+dawn I had someone send me a PM about why we were so excited since she was a Mr. P granddaughter, but I really like the rest of her pedigree. She has also already proven herself with offspring competing in the upper level jumpers and in the IHF. We feel that she is worth her weight in gold.

You are right about Mr. P's pedigree for sport. We see so many descendants here, and he has such a reputation for throwing iffy legs that we tend to forget the potential inherent in his lines.

What I am taking from this is that both mares would be eligible for the CS registry. Raise or Fold because she has been approved with a WBFSH registry and Stolen Dawn as she has proven herself in regards to production. Correct?

[equestrianism]

There are two Ribot line stallions in the US that I personally have great hopes for in the production of sport TBs. One is Roanoke, a 17 hand stallion who is elderly and now has a cheap stud fee in a very regional market, but has produced steeplechase winners and at least one advanced event horse. Another, who has just started his stud career at a very advanced age is Cetewayo. I believe the jumps racing people may be using him as well.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/cetewayo
http://www.pedigreequery.com/roanoke2

Another stallion that I hope will make it to sporthorse land is Siphon.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/siphon
He has been identified as one of the ten worst values in race breeding in the US, but one who throws beautiful babies. If his get have inherited the sport horse qualities of their sire's pedigree, then he will be something to look forward to when his stud fee slips to a sport horse value.

You are right about Mr. P's pedigree for sport. We see so many descendants here, and he has such a reputation for throwing iffy legs that we tend to forget the potential inherent in his lines.

Yuo should hold on to the first two and mate them with mares out of top sport horse breeding lines. That may be very interesting. When I get rich and famous I'm gonna start breeding TB:s just for sport horse pruposes :winkgrin:

[Continental Studbook]

We have a Ribot grandson in our area. One of our TB mares, Raise or Fold (aka Reno) is by this stallion. She has been a good producer for us and her WB sired daughters have been even better.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/brumidi

http://www.pedigreequery.com/raise+or+fold



We were very lucky to have aquired Stolen Dawn this past fall. http://www.pedigreequery.com/stolen+dawn I had someone send me a PM about why we were so excited since she was a Mr. P granddaughter, but I really like the rest of her pedigree. She has also already proven herself with offspring competing in the upper level jumpers and in the IHF. We feel that she is worth her weight in gold.



What I am taking from this is that both mares would be eligible for the CS registry. Raise or Fold because she has been approved with a WBFSH registry and Stolen Dawn as she has proven herself in regards to production. Correct?

Both mares would be eligible if they have produced competitive offspring for any of the 4 sports. Successful production is the most accurate form of evaluation that any registry can perform.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[hunt_jumpfl]

Not that a new sporthorse registry impacts me one way or the other, but I'm curious about the competition requirements. What is considered a suitable competition history for say a TB mare showing as a hunter? (Or did I miss the explanation on the website)

[Stacie]

I have three questions

1. Section 3.0.2, Known and Traceable Bloodlines of the breeding rules says that horses with CPs are ineligible. Why? CPs allow the traceability of bloodlines and as long as the bloodlines are WB or TB, why disallow it?

2. Section 7.1 _ General Stallion Licensing requirements, seciton e. The stallion must be bay black brown chestnut or grey. Later in the document, horses with pinto marking are expressly forbidden. I assume that palominos or cremellos would be as well. I don't breed for color, but what possible difference does color make in the ability of a horse to perform? Is this a sport horse registry or not?

3. Stallions AND mares must be at 15.3H. Again, I ask you, if the horse can perform, what difference does it make how tall it is? Marketing?

[Home Again Farm]

Both mares would be eligible if they have produced competitive offspring for any of the 4 sports. Successful production is the most accurate form of evaluation that any registry can perform.

Good luck to you on this endeavor. It does seem to address some problem areas for some breeders.

Could you define "competitive offspring?" I am having a problem wrapping my mind around approving a mare based on, for example, a successful offsping in hunter breeding vs a winning offspring in upper level dressage or jumpers. Are there fully defined criteria somewhere?

[STF]

Good luck to you on this endeavor. It does seem to address some problem areas for some breeders.

Could you define "competitive offspring?" I am having a problem wrapping my mind around approving a mare based on, for example, a successful offsping in hunter breeding vs a winning offspring in upper level dressage or jumpers. Are there fully defined criteria somewhere?


Im having trouble with this too.
Now I understand a horse being at the top of the game and basing your "standard" off of USEF points or USDF, USHJA, etc - but in another aspect of that, points can also been seen more as quanity and not quality. You may have a STELLAR horse go out and do 2-3 show and be in the top placings and then have a So-So hosre go out and do 10 shows and have more points via quanity of shows. I cant say the point system is the real ways to evaluate breed quality, IMO.

[vineyridge]

Showjumper66, Brumidi's pedigree screams potential as a sport horse producer. It's filled with horses who have gotten offspring who have competed at the highest level. Most impressive in Raise or Fold is the mare Rose Leaves, who is pure gold. She has at least two inches of descendants in fine print in Dr. Birdsall, most of whom come through Bull Lea.

[crestline]

Stacie-
Where did you see pinto excluded...I read the part where patters are allowed if from WB sources (ie Samber) but didn't see a pinto pattern excluded...I did see APHA excluded and I don't find that any problem at all.

Let me repeat that I think this is a really interesting idea and my comments are not meant to be at all negative...more of a devil's advocate sort of position...
So in regards to OTTB, buschkn...I hear you... they shouldn't be just accepted across the board. My question is in regards to where to start with these mares in regards to the registry...do you have to wait 5-6 years and have 5-6 foals registered elsewhere before you can come to CS because now your mare is "proven" once one of those "makes it". Now without everyone jumping on me please read this next sentence with the slightly sarcastic tone it is meant to have...that being overfed and standing on the line deadly quiet while looking pretty does not necessarily constitute success in sport (lol)...sure some hunter breeding horses go on but many don't so how does showing on the line magically make a mare suitable. Along that same line I've seen many hotter than hot, fancy moving dressage youngsters show great on the line but be basket cases to ride. What if my TB mare produces jumpers or dressage horses....then I have a 5-6 year waiting period for registration of my first offspring? I'm just trying to clarify what the registry is picturing folks doing to enter their registry. We have plenty of clients with TB mares that have not shown or cannot show...let's not forget that $1000+++ per show plus board and training bills are not in everyone's budget esp these days...and some very nice track mares are injured....so is the CS registry to all of these folks just "too bad". Would these mares be allowed if they are approved into the mare book of another registry?

Please know that I ask the questions as I want to have information and answers if our clients come to us and ask us their options.

So I see below you posted that OTTB mares need to prove their suitabilty through any of the mulitiple options...I think this is the area that might need more info so that we would have clear guidelines of what to tell our breeders if CS is an option they want to pursue with an injured track mare that is a fabulous sport type. Is "go somewhere else and wait for offspring to grow up" their only option?

[equestrianism]

I have three questions

1. Section 3.0.2, Known and Traceable Bloodlines of the breeding rules says that horses with CPs are ineligible. Why? CPs allow the traceability of bloodlines and as long as the bloodlines are WB or TB, why disallow it?

2. Section 7.1 _ General Stallion Licensing requirements, seciton e. The stallion must be bay black brown chestnut or grey. Later in the document, horses with pinto marking are expressly forbidden. I assume that palominos or cremellos would be as well. I don't breed for color, but what possible difference does color make in the ability of a horse to perform? Is this a sport horse registry or not?

3. Stallions AND mares must be at 15.3H. Again, I ask you, if the horse can perform, what difference does it make how tall it is? Marketing?

The reference to a mininum height is just plain common sence in sport horse breeding and not unique for this stud book. I.e. is a mare below 15,1H not welcome into the studbook of the SWB! You reelly don't want any midgets running around reproducing themeselves and a horse around 15.1-15.3H is not a big horse and will come across plenty of difficulties in making it's way around a big show jumping course. Super showjumper Jappeloup SF and eventer Charisma NZ were two big exceptions that competed at the highest level just reaching 15,5H.

Even the WEG-finalist in showjumping in Jerez Mynta SWB was considered very small in the world of top class showjumping and she is more than 0,6H or 5cm from minimum height in the SWB and that is a lot.

[Oakstable]

The mare I mentioned in my posts in this thread was a twin, verified by the breeder in Germany.

She's 15H and a fraction more.

Trakehner mares quite often are 15.2 or so.

[vineyridge]

The eventing mare, Headley Britannia who has won Badminton, Burghley and Rolex is lucky to reach 15.2 on a good hair day. Teddy O'Connor was world class and actually a pony. Stroller won silver in the SJ Olympics at Mexico City and was a pony.

Hickstead is a rather small horse, but he's probably over 15.2.

Size has nothing whatsoever to do with jumping ability. And there are many, many reasons why a foal won't mature to the size of its parents.

It's certainly possible to be too large, but I don't see anything excluding giants.

[equestrianism]

Showjumper66, Brumidi's pedigree screams potential as a sport horse producer. It's filled with horses who have gotten offspring who have competed at the highest level. Most impressive in Raise or Fold is the mare Rose Leaves, who is pure gold. She has at least two inches of descendants in fine print in Dr. Birdsall, most of whom come through Bull Lea.Who are the horses in Brumidis pedigree that tickles you in a good way?

[showjumpers66]

:lol: Back when I had extra time, I did research her pedigree extensively - http://www.silvercreeksporthorses.com/raiseorfoldorigins.html . Just based on how much time I spent on this, my hat is off to Dr. Birdsall for all of his efforts.

[vineyridge]

Rose Leaves was not only the dam of Bull Lea by Bull Dog by Teddy, but she was bred to Negrofol and produced Espino, the sire of Wait A Bit. Wait A Bit was Tomboy's sire (among others in Dr. Birdsall), is in Seattle Slew's pedigree, and was used a good "bit" in USET breeding endeavors. Espino himself produced horses in Dr. Birdsall that weren't by Wait A Bit. Cormac, the sire of Bally Cor, is also by a stallion out of Rose Leaves named Bois de Rose.

[vineyridge]

Who are the horses in Brumidis pedigree that tickles you in a good way?
Ribot, of course, sireline to Havresac. Bachelor's Double, Gay Gamp, and Bucolic doubles Buchan. Havresac's dam is a daughter of Ajax. Since he is the damsire of Nogara, Nearco's dam, there is a huge amount of Havresac and thus Ajax in this pedigree.
Dante, sire and dam.
Solario
Buchan
The fact that Brumidi traces to Pretty Polly on the sire's tail female and the dam's tail female. Monarchia, the sire's dam, was bred to several stallions, like Hugh Lupus and Abernant, along with Ribot, who are known jumping producers--which may or may not mean that the breeders were looking at chasing as possible careers for her foals.

On the Bottom

Turn-To, which means Royal Charger, 3/4 sibling of Nasrullah, which also gives you linebreeding to Solario. This gives you connections to Best Turn, Turn To Mars, all of the Hail To Reasons and the Robertos, etc. Royal Charger himself sired quite a few USET jumpers from the old days.
Source Sucree, daughter of probably my favorite TB mare for producing jumping horses, Lavendula. Her dam, Sweet Lavender, is damsire line Marco.
Honeyway sire and dam. The mare Honey Buzzard is by Papyrus, who is Tracery/Rock Sand on top, and Marco line/St. Simon on the bottom. Fairway, of course, is Pharos's full brother and the sire of many notable performers through Fair Trial and (particularly) Fair Trial's son, Court Martial.
Admiral's Walk, who is Hyperion bred to a Roi Herode mare
And tail female to Sister Sarah/Pretty Polly on the bottom.

That's six lines to Phalaris and Scapa Flow through Pharos and Fairway. You also have linebreeding to Papyrus and to Solario, and They are both found top and bottom.

To me this pedigree shows a lot of thought in the repetition of the tail female line top and bottom and in the balanced linebreeding top and bottom. The only thing it lacks is consistent sex balancing top and bottom. And Teddy. But you do have Plucky Liege, which is a very good thing, since her dam Concertina was also responsible for a mare named Garron's Lass, the dam of Friar's Daughter.

All of these horses are well represented in the work Dr. Birdsall did in tracing jumping horse pedigrees in North America twenty five years ago.

[showjumpers66]

She shows it in her type. When I saw her at the track (I actually bought her out of a stall at the track and she was not for sale at the time), she screamed classic TB show jumper to me.

Sorry to derail the topic at hand!

[Continental Studbook]

I have three questions

1. Section 3.0.2, Known and Traceable Bloodlines of the breeding rules says that horses with CPs are ineligible. Why? CPs allow the traceability of bloodlines and as long as the bloodlines are WB or TB, why disallow it?

2. Section 7.1 _ General Stallion Licensing requirements, seciton e. The stallion must be bay black brown chestnut or grey. Later in the document, horses with pinto marking are expressly forbidden. I assume that palominos or cremellos would be as well. I don't breed for color, but what possible difference does color make in the ability of a horse to perform? Is this a sport horse registry or not?

3. Stallions AND mares must be at 15.3H. Again, I ask you, if the horse can perform, what difference does it make how tall it is? Marketing?

For 1. CPs are issued by registries for two reasons: the pedigree of the mare is unknown (which is not allowed in the CS), or the breed is not allowed in the registry (which we would also not allow).

For 2. The Continental Studbook also does not care much about color. The rule is:

"Body markings or patterns are acceptable when composed of solid colors originating from warmblood sources (e.g., Furioso or Samber). Please note that the American Paint Horse is a non-eligible bloodline."

Nowhere is pinto patterning disallowed.

Palominos or cremellos really does not exist in WB or TB population, so its presence indicates a non-eligible bloodline.

For 3. Every registry has a minimum height requirement. There is always some "error" in determining height, so reported 15.3 was determined to be a good number.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[Sonesta]

Palominos or cremellos really does not exist in WB or TB population, so its presence indicates a non-eligible bloodline.
Robert
Continental Studbook

Grab the popcorn. This will surely bring out all those who breed Jockey Club registered TBs that are, in fact, palomino, buckskin and cremello.

[Continental Studbook]

Is this a WBFSH recognized studbook?

This was answered previously, but the thread is long so:

The CS was carefully designed to be completely compatible with the WBFSH. For example, every WBFSH-member registered horse has a path to entry one way or another. It will be at least 5-7 years before WBFSH membership has any practical benefit since it will take that long for the first CS foals to be competing at levels tracked by the WBFSH. However, it is intended to apply for membership much earlier to eliminate this issue.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[Continental Studbook]

Grab the popcorn. This will surely bring out all those who breed Jockey Club registered TBs that are, in fact, palomino, buckskin and cremello.

If such horses are TB sport horses, the owner can request an exemption under the rules. The percentage of this situation occurring in the total sport horse population (WB + TB) is so small and is even smaller in the TB racing population, that at least 9 times out of 10 it will be due to the presence of a non-eligible bloodline.

This type of thing is beyond the core bloodlines, marketing and purpose of the CS and distracts from more important conversations. There has not been a single mention of the Belgian, Danish, Dutch, French, German, Irish and Swedish inclusion, or of the broad focus on dressage, eventing, hunters and jumpers.

Finally, most other organizations have exactly the same rule.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[Sonesta]

If such horses are TB sport horses, the owner can request an exemption under the rules. The percentage of this situation occurring in the total sport horse population (WB + TB) is so small and is even smaller in the TB racing population, that at least 9 times out of 10 it will be due to the presence of a non-eligible bloodline.

This type of thing is beyond the core bloodlines, marketing and purpose of the CS and distracts from more important conversations. There has not been a single mention of the Belgian, Danish, Dutch, French, German, Irish and Swedish inclusion, or of the broad focus on dressage, eventing, hunters and jumpers.

Finally, most other organizations have exactly the same rule.

Robert
Continental Studbook

so now we learn that there can be "exemptions" from the rules. Any thought been given to how these "exemptions" will be determined?

[vineyridge]

Robert, I think one reason no one is jumping up and down over the inclusion of the already existing WB registries is that most WB breeders are quite happy with their own registries as they are today.

The reason there has been so much emphasis on the TB aspects is that the US (and Ireland and the UK and France, to a more limited extent) has a huge TB mare base to begin with, which Germany, Belgium, Sweden, Denmark, The Netherlands, etc. have never had. That's what so many breeders have and use. IMO, what the US needs is a registry that will work with, keep records of, and promote what a large proportion of our breeders are already doing--reverse the continental position of having the TB male on top, and use OUR mare base with the best stallions of whatever stripe and registry are available. Why does it matter which side the genes come from as long as they are there?

[Continental Studbook]

Robert, I think one reason no one is jumping up and down over the inclusion of the already existing WB registries is that most WB breeders are quite happy with their own registries as they are today.

The reason there has been so much emphasis on the TB aspects is that the US (and Ireland and the UK and France, to a more limited extent) has a huge TB mare base to begin with, which Germany, Belgium, Sweden, Denmark, The Netherlands, etc. have never had. That's what so many breeders have and use. IMO, what the US needs is a registry that will work with, keep records of, and promote what a large proportion of our breeders are already doing--reverse the continental position of having the TB male on top, and use OUR mare base with the best stallions of whatever stripe and registry are available. Why does it matter which side the genes come from as long as they are there?

It does not matter. The CS has no problems at all breeding WB stallions to TB sport mares.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[Stacie]

For 1. CPs are issued by registries for two reasons: the pedigree of the mare is unknown (which is not allowed in the CS), or the breed is not allowed in the registry (which we would also not allow).

Not true. I have a mare with a CP from the AHS because the dam was not INSPECTED. The mare's pedigree is known and documented. TB dam, Hanoverian Stallion. I have also have a filly from that mare who also has a CP. her pedigree is also known.

[buschkn]

Robert,

Thank you for clarifying things in this thread regarding the CS and people's concerns. I think it all sounds very good so far. I have gone so far as to defend it already in spite of not knowing much about it or being involved yet. The following are my concerns and/or suggestions at present.


1. The CS does not come up on any searches. For example, when I earlier googled "Continental Studbook" and even "Continentalstudbook.com" the actual CS website does not come up. This is definitely bad for business. Right now while everyone is talking about it, it is important for it to be readily accessible and visible for those wanting to find out more info. I knew about it and couldn't even find it. This thread came up, but I can't get on COTH at work and was trying to find the site.

2. Stallion licensing? How does the CS intend to license the stallions? I saw some information but it seemed rather vague, and again with no inspections I am not sure how any or all of that might be accomplished.

3. WHO are the judges regarding licensing/approval for mares and stallions? Send in your info and then who decides? I am not so much concerned for my mares specifically, but more concerned for quality control purposes to maintain the desired respect of the brand. It is also important that this process be transparent to all involved so there can never be any cry of foul play or catering to specific individual interests. This, too, is important to maintain the credibility of the brand, which you no doubt already know.

4. I am a fan so far of the general concept and am eager to see it in practice. That said, I have sent two separate emails to two different accounts with no response to my queries thus far. I understand that the CS is probably getting a lot of questions and correspondence to sift through and reply to so a delay is understandable. However, it would be most appreciated to have even an automated response that says something along the lines that volume is high and your email with be answered asap, etc. Again, just good business.

I would have inquired about some of these privately, but felt it might generate a faster response here and also felt that some of these items would be of interest to others on here. Thank you for all the hard work. I look forward to continuing to learn more.

[Continental Studbook]

so now we learn that there can be "exemptions" from the rules. Any thought been given to how these "exemptions" will be determined?

They will only be allowed for unforseen circumstances that the rules did not anticipate, and would be granted only in cases of exceptional performance. It is impossible to plan for everything. Every registry has such procedures.

"2.1. EXCEPTIONS. Exceptions to the rules and procedures due to unforeseen reasons can be requested by contacting the Continental Studbook. Any decision to grant an exception to the rules requires a unanimous consent by a committee of at least three Breeding Officials of the Continental Studbook. Their decisions are final."

Robert
Continental Studbook

[Continental Studbook]

Robert,

Thank you for clarifying things in this thread regarding the CS and people's concerns. I think it all sounds very good so far. I have gone so far as to defend it already in spite of not knowing much about it or being involved yet. The following are my concerns and/or suggestions at present.


1. The CS does not come up on any searches. For example, when I earlier googled "Continental Studbook" and even "Continentalstudbook.com" the actual CS website does not come up. This is definitely bad for business. Right now while everyone is talking about it, it is important for it to be readily accessible and visible for those wanting to find out more info. I knew about it and couldn't even find it. This thread came up, but I can't get on COTH at work and was trying to find the site.

2. Stallion licensing? How does the CS intend to license the stallions? I saw some information but it seemed rather vague, and again with no inspections I am not sure how any or all of that might be accomplished.

3. WHO are the judges regarding licensing/approval for mares and stallions? Send in your info and then who decides? I am not so much concerned for my mares specifically, but more concerned for quality control purposes to maintain the desired respect of the brand. It is also important that this process be transparent to all involved so there can never be any cry of foul play or catering to specific individual interests. This, too, is important to maintain the credibility of the brand, which you no doubt already know.

4. I am a fan so far of the general concept and am eager to see it in practice. That said, I have sent two separate emails to two different accounts with no response to my queries thus far. I understand that the CS is probably getting a lot of questions and correspondence to sift through and reply to so a delay is understandable. However, it would be most appreciated to have even an automated response that says something along the lines that volume is high and your email with be answered asap, etc. Again, just good business.

I would have inquired about some of these privately, but felt it might generate a faster response here and also felt that some of these items would be of interest to others on here. Thank you for all the hard work. I look forward to continuing to learn more.

Your email was received 8:02 am EST. Sorry that you fell outside of our 12 hour target response (even on Sunday), but your questions required a quality response which is being prepared.

Thank you for pointing out the Google issue. CS was verified to be the #1 return on Google while the website was under password protection, so it is not clear what happened. It will be addressed.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[buschkn]

I believe I sent an email both yesterday and one today, regarding different issues, but my days all run together so I'm not sure. No worries, really, just pointing out that while it;s new and people are excited or pissed or interested or xyz.. it is important that you either fuel the fire or put out the fire depending on the type of inquiry sent. :) I look forward to having my questions answered soon.

[Continental Studbook]

Not true. I have a mare with a CP from the AHS because the dam was not INSPECTED. The mare's pedigree is known and documented. TB dam, Hanoverian Stallion. I have also have a filly from that mare who also has a CP. her pedigree is also known.

Sorry, I did forget the case of un-inspected mares.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[FriesianX]

Grab the popcorn. This will surely bring out all those who breed Jockey Club registered TBs that are, in fact, palomino, buckskin and cremello.


And a few of the Warmbloods - such as Blonder Hans? Are we concerned that there was (possibly) something like an infusion of Saddlebred several generations back? If so, grab the popcorn again, because MOST Warmbloods have some unknowns in their pedigree if you go back far enough. Heck, many horses do - how many "pure" and totally documented pedigrees are there - hmmmm, I guess a few Tbreds can trace back to one of the three original Arabians. Most Arabians have pretty pure predigree. Not too many others though.

I totally welcome the idea of a new Warmblood Registry, and I think many others would too, but this one may need to do some evolving before it becomes a registry of choice for many breeders. There is much to admire in the idea though - and I totally agree that on site inspections for foals is not the ideal for many US breeders (who would have to haul their mares and foals long distances to inspection sites).

[Fairview Horse Center]

For 1. CPs are issued by registries for two reasons: the pedigree of the mare is unknown (which is not allowed in the CS), or the breed is not allowed in the registry (which we would also not allow).

CPs can be issued because the foal owner chose to not take the mare and foal to a far away inspection, or because of not being registered by a certain age. That has nothing to do with bloodlines or approval. Some CP horses are out of MSB mares, but the stallion lacks approval for that registry, and the breeder chose to get a CP rather than re-inspect the mare at a registry that the sire was approved by.

Palominos or cremellos really does not exist in WB or TB population, so its presence indicates a non-eligible bloodline.

I am really surprised that anyone would say that in this day of available information just a click away.

For 3. Every registry has a minimum height requirement. There is always some "error" in determining height, so reported 15.3 was determined to be a good number.

I worked for one of the top Hanoverian breeding farms on the country, and their best producing mare was barely 15 h, if that. Her smallest baby matured 16.3. Twins can often be below their genetics. I believe most European registries minimum height is 15.1 or 2, but I have seen that really fudged by an inspector that loved the mare, and didn't want a stick near them. :winkgrin: Requiring 15.3, are you trying to breed even bigger horses than the other registries? So someone 15 years from now, with multiple generations in your registry that comes out with a smaller one of the line, that mare is not eligible for studbook?

[Continental Studbook]

And a few of the Warmbloods - such as Blonder Hans? Are we concerned that there was (possibly) something like an infusion of Saddlebred several generations back? If so, grab the popcorn again, because MOST Warmbloods have some unknowns in their pedigree if you go back far enough. Heck, many horses do - how many "pure" and totally documented pedigrees are there - hmmmm, I guess a few Tbreds can trace back to one of the three original Arabians. Most Arabians have pretty pure predigree. Not too many others though.

I totally welcome the idea of a new Warmblood Registry, and I think many others would too, but this one may need to do some evolving before it becomes a registry of choice for many breeders. There is much to admire in the idea though - and I totally agree that on site inspections for foals is not the ideal for many US breeders (who would have to haul their mares and foals long distances to inspection sites).

This is an issue at a level of minutia that is easily addressable in the rare cases in which it occurs. Keep in mind that the CS explicitly allowed pinto patterning from Samber, etc., in anticipated response of this kind of discussion. The purpose of the rule is to flag the possibility of ineligible bloodlines such as APHA, AQHA and Appaloosa where the non-standard colors occur in high numbers. The CS was aware of color WB breeders in Europe, including areas and registries of Europe which are not exactly hotbeds of WBFSH production. Believe it or not, it was actually discussed in detail but determined to have no impact on the CS. These animals are self described as "rare" and "exotic".

Were there any such animals in Hong Kong at the Olympics or at the World Cup? None that I saw.

Again, the percentages of this color variation in these breeds is extremely low, as in single percentage points or even less. It is hardly an issue to judge for using the registry, especially if 98% or more of the breeders do not own any alternative color warmbloods and are thus not affected. 98% of breeders (especially proven breeders and professionals) who in fact have extremely positive response to the CS and are already planning foals are having a very good laugh at this conversation.

So breeders, look in your fields. If you see no cremello, buckskin, palomino, etc., warmbloods and thoroughbreds, we invite you to study the innovative approval processes which will prevent you from shipping and risking infection, injury or stress of a $5k breeding invested pregnant mare or $10k+ foal, or to study the dedication to establishing a true North American brand name under which the industry will recognize quality, focus and sport achievement, or to study the ability to breed to 1000+ of the best stallions in the world without submitting paperwork, paying extra fees and worrying about which tier of the registry your foal will end up and thus affect its resale value. Those are issues important to breeders, not how the CS handles a cremello WB if one ever shows up for application.

I apologize for being direct, but it is important to bring the message back to reality. The CS stands for important issues that have real impact to the bottom line of dressage, eventing, hunter and jumper breeders, and its management team is experienced enough in high level business to not be distracted by non-existent problems which do not affect its customers.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[Continental Studbook]

CPs can be issued because the foal owner chose to not take the mare and foal to a far away inspection, or because of not being registered by a certain age. That has nothing to do with bloodlines or approval. Some CP horses are out of MSB mares, but the stallion lacks approval for that registry, and the breeder chose to get a CP rather than re-inspect the mare at a registry that the sire was approved by.



I am really surprised that anyone would say that in this day of available information just a click away.



I worked for one of the top Hanoverian breeding farms on the country, and their best producing mare was barely 15 h, if that. Her smallest baby matured 16.3. Twins can often be below their genetics. I believe most European registries minimum height is 15.1 or 2, but I have seen that really fudged by an inspector that loved the mare, and didn't want a stick near them. :winkgrin: Requiring 15.3, are you trying to breed even bigger horses than the other registries? So someone 15 years from now, with multiple generations in your registry that comes out with a smaller one of the line, that mare is not eligible for studbook?

"CPs can be issued because the foal owner chose to not take the mare and foal to a far away inspection, or because of not being registered by a certain age. That has nothing to do with bloodlines or approval. Some CP horses are out of MSB mares, but the stallion lacks approval for that registry, and the breeder chose to get a CP rather than re-inspect the mare at a registry that the sire was approved by."

The CS directly solves this problem so that it does not occur. Similarly, lots of foals go unregistered. In cases of having CP because the two WBFSH-member registered parents were incompatible via registry politics, breeders contact us and we will do whatever possible to help you.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[DownYonder]

And another question - I did see on the website that Arabian mares are not welcome in this registry, which I guess is not surprising considering that the founders of this registry were Holsteiner - i.e., jumper - breeders. However, there are some people out there breeding kick-ass dressage foals by putting sport type Arabian mares to WB stallions. Are mares from that type of cross (WB/Arabian) also excluded from this registry?

Robert, I am not sure you answered this question. Will this registry exclude WB-sired daughters, granddaughters, etc., of Arabian mares?

[DownYonder]

And another question, or rather comment.

It appears that all the founders and owners of the CS registry are jumper breeders. Does this mean that the registry will be jumper focused?

[Sundown Farm]

I just want to know how they are going to judge movement??

[BravAddict]

Again, the percentages of this color variation in these breeds is extremely low, as in single percentage points or even less. It is hardly an issue to judge for using the registry, especially if 98% or more of the breeders do not own any alternative color warmbloods and are thus not affected. 98% of breeders (especially proven breeders and professionals) who in fact have extremely positive response to the CS and are already planning foals are having a very good laugh at this conversation.

Robert
Continental Studbook

Robert, if less than 10% of all warmbloods and Thoroughbreds that would be otherwise-acceptable to the CS are of "non-standard" colors, would it not make more sense just to leave coat color out of the rules entirely? As you said, it's hardly an issue to judge anything by, and we all know that coat color has nothing to do with performance ability.
The CS makes it quite clear that AQHA, APHA, ASHA and ApHC horses are not allowed, so the registry does not need to bar horses by color in order to catch such horses if they were to slip through the cracks. Surely such an antagonistic attitude towards funny colors is not necessary? (If people were having a "very good laugh" at me, I would feel antagonized.)
If I were you, or any of your peers, I would not comment on color in the rules.

[Home Again Farm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continental Studbook http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=4066146#post4066146)
Both mares would be eligible if they have produced competitive offspring for any of the 4 sports. Successful production is the most accurate form of evaluation that any registry can perform.

Good luck to you on this endeavor. It does seem to address some problem areas for some breeders.

Could you define "competitive offspring?" I am having a problem wrapping my mind around approving a mare based on, for example, a successful offsping in hunter breeding vs a winning offspring in upper level dressage or jumpers. Are there fully defined criteria somewhere?

I'll also second the question of who will comprise the judging committee? How are the breeding directors chosen and what are the basic required qualifications for such individuals?

And also how movement will be judged without an inspection?

[dressuursport]

This seems superficially like an interesting concept, but the OTTB and color rules seem unnecessary and not beneficial and would probably be enough to make me pass over this registry (and the color rules don't even effect me.)

[Continental Studbook]

And another question, or rather comment.

It appears that all the founders and owners of the CS registry are jumper breeders. Does this mean that the registry will be jumper focused?

One is a dressage breeder, the other two are jumper and hunter breeders. Unfortunately there are not many breeders who only target eventing.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[sporthorsefilly]

Grab the popcorn. This will surely bring out all those who breed Jockey Club registered TBs that are, in fact, palomino, buckskin and cremello.

Orvil Reddenbocker should love this thread!

Interesting about colors! Has Continental lived in a vaccuum? There are many "colored" TBs out there and many WB breeders are interested in palomino and buckskin. Why exclude a horse because of the color of its hide??? Especially if this a performance registry!

Next: Size and X race mares...too bad Gold medalist Touch of Class would never have been acceptable! Her mom was a race mare!

Sorry, I will stay with my registy. I enjoy keurings and people who seek to include rather than exclude horses.

Cute idea though, to accept all the stallions that have worked really hard to qualify and paid for their acceptance into classical WB registries. But you have insulted the oldest registry in the world: The Jockey Club!

[Continental Studbook]

Robert, I am not sure you answered this question. Will this registry exclude WB-sired daughters, granddaughters, etc., of Arabian mares?

Anglo-Arabian is CS-ELIGIBLE due to WBFSH ranking in sport, but the domestic Arabian is not a WBFSH-member breed. The CS was not designed to capture domestic non-WBFSH breeds other than TBs which have a significant history in WBFSH contribution.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[NoDQhere]

other than TBs which have a significant history in WBFSH contribution.

Robert
Continental Studbook

And the Arabian hasn't????????????????

[Oakstable]

I think I've read that 3% of warmblood breedings in Europe use Arabians.

This is not a deal breaker for this registry.

Breeders in the US who breed Wbs to Arabians register with the AHA so they can show on the Arabian circuit.

[Continental Studbook]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continental Studbook http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=4066146#post4066146)
Both mares would be eligible if they have produced competitive offspring for any of the 4 sports. Successful production is the most accurate form of evaluation that any registry can perform.

Good luck to you on this endeavor. It does seem to address some problem areas for some breeders.

Could you define "competitive offspring?" I am having a problem wrapping my mind around approving a mare based on, for example, a successful offsping in hunter breeding vs a winning offspring in upper level dressage or jumpers. Are there fully defined criteria somewhere?

I'll also second the question of who will comprise the judging committee? How are the breeding directors chosen and what are the basic required qualifications for such individuals?

And also how movement will be judged without an inspection?

In other registries movement is part of a ranking of one horse over another at inspection, but rarely if ever does it have any impact on whether or not a mare is approved for breeding. The CS chose to separate movement into the Phenotype Indicator of the 5P Production Indicator system which is used to highlight quality such as superior conformation, movement and/or jumping technique. Mares will be evaluated on video submission from a prescribed set of movements to be submitted, and/or from appropriate competition video if available. Achievement of the Phenotype Indicator is one of the requirements for stallion approval, and it will be evaluated with individual in-person visits of licensing teams. Teams will be formed from proven professionals from our domestic ranks (e.g., our top Grand Prix riders or trainers) and/or judges qualified by respective associations (in the cases of hunters and dressage).

It is very difficult to assign absolutes on the idea of competitive offspring for this purpose due to the different sports and age dependencies. It is to no ones' advantage to require only Grand Prix or 4 star level competition when mares will be at the end of their breeding careers. Producing a table or checklist would be too complicated and open to vast criticism. So competitive is defined as finishing in upper rankings of age appropriate classes for the respective sports. Hunter breeding is very important for that industry, so zone champions or reserve champions would definitely qualify for example. A common internal theme for dressage is matching the requirements for qualifying for zone finals at age appropriate levels or good results in the USDF young horses classes (or equivalent). For jumpers, it could be a number of faultless rounds at Level 4 for 5 year olds, for example.

The idea is to determine production suitability for a level of competition commonly seen and desired by buyers on the show circuit. It is easy to say what competitive is not. That would be results such as no finishes above 50% of the class rankings, no faultless rounds in jumpers, performance at levels not considered significant when being far below those expected at the age. For example, an 8 year old level II jumper could hardly be considered a justifiable offspring.

The CS has the Production Indicator and Performance Indicator for mares and stallions which are much more precise and very valuable distinctions. It will have detailed achievements required for offspring at each sport. In dressage, it centers around PSG level depending on number of offpsring, for example.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[Fairview Horse Center]

Since the AWS & AWR are WBFSH-members, as well as other European registries that DO have AQHA bloodlines, is CS eliminating those horses?

[Continental Studbook]

Orvil Reddenbocker should love this thread!

Interesting about colors! Has Continental lived in a vaccuum? There are many "colored" TBs out there and many WB breeders are interested in palomino and buckskin. Why exclude a horse because of the color of its hide??? Especially if this a performance registry!

Next: Size and X race mares...too bad Gold medalist Touch of Class would never have been acceptable! Her mom was a race mare!

Sorry, I will stay with my registy. I enjoy keurings and people who seek to include rather than exclude horses.

Cute idea though, to accept all the stallions that have worked really hard to qualify and paid for their acceptance into classical WB registries. But you have insulted the oldest registry in the world: The Jockey Club!

The Jocky Club has explicit rules for color and explicitly does not recognize buckskin, cremello or patterning (pinto). Therefore, the Jockey Club has set a precedent for defining color, and it only allows palomino, roan and white outside of the identical list of the CS. So they have offended the breeders of Samber blood I guess, or warmblood breeders in general since the Jockey Club accepts only TBs?

The Jockey Club explicitly approved colors are bay, black, chestnut, dark bay/brown, gray/roan, palomino and white. There are no other options.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[Continental Studbook]

Since the AWS & AWR are WBFSH-members, as well as other European registries that DO have AQHA bloodlines, is CS eliminating those horses?

No, any AWS/AWR without non-eligible bloodlines is eligible. Any registered horse with a pedigree going back to the core bloodlines is eligible.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[Continental Studbook]

And the Arabian hasn't????????????????

The Studbook fully acknowledges and congratulates breeding of sport horse from QHs, Arabians and other breeds. By excluding these breeds, the CS does not imply any negative message toward the breeds. The CS was designed specifically around WBFSH membership, and the breeds in question are not WBFSH members. If the breeds in question were WBFSH members, the CS would include them in options. The CS made no judgement on these breeds other than WBFSH memership.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[Nootka]

Ya know... I was excited about this new registry. I was extreamly positive. Now, I can't breed for this registry because of color. I have a palomino 100% Euro WB mare that has NO stock horse blood. Most of these dilute colored horses are too young to have made a name for themselves yet. Sorry that I am not some big name breeder just a little insufficiant no name. So CS can laugh at me. Very disappointing:no:

http://www.universumsknockout.com/nockout_en.html
http://www.blazingcoloursfarm.com/Mirabeau1.htm
http://www.palominowarmbloods.com/blueeyeddream.html
http://www.crestlinefarm.com/palladiohome.htm
http://www.fieldstonefarm.biz/breeding_services.htm
http://www.fieldstonefarm.biz/images/7-16-6Webshots-Chablis/index.htm

PS.. RPSI, OLD na, GOV and a few others are part of WBFSH membership and they don't give a &*%$ about the color.

[Continental Studbook]

Ya know... I was excited about this new registry. I was extreamly positive. Now, I can't breed for this registry because of color. I have a palomino 100% Euro WB mare that has NO stock horse blood. Most of these dilute colored horses are too young to have made a name for themselves yet. Sorry that I am not some big name breeder just a little insufficiant no name. So CS can laugh at me. Very disappointing:no:

http://www.universumsknockout.com/nockout_en.html
http://www.blazingcoloursfarm.com/Mirabeau1.htm
http://www.palominowarmbloods.com/blueeyeddream.html
http://www.crestlinefarm.com/palladiohome.htm
http://www.fieldstonefarm.biz/breeding_services.htm
http://www.fieldstonefarm.biz/images/7-16-6Webshots-Chablis/index.htm

PS.. RPSI, OLD na, GOV and a few others are part of WBFSH membership and they don't give a &*%$ about the color.

We apologize for the problem. The rule was not designed to exclude palomino TBs or WBs. It was designed to help alert the presence of non-WBFSH member breeds such as APHA, etc. It was not expected to have any significant impact on breeders given the low percentages of numbers in the population.

Robert
Continental Studbook

[Calliope]

PSLs and PREs are WBFSH members, too.

Some interesting colours in those breeds! ;)



The CS idea sounds very interesting, but I do have to admit, I don't understand the exclusion of certain colours (and I don't even breed for them!).

[DMK]

The TB mare may not have ANY performance record other than a failure as a race horse. But her bloodlnes may have produced superior Hunters.
Or as Sporthorsefilly mentioned, a TB mare may have had a career ending track injury but still produce nice horses.

The terminology just shows a complete lack of understanding - any TB who left the track for a destination other than the breeding shed is an OTTB, not just the ones who were not succesful at their first job. :rolleyes: An OTTB I can think of is Hand in Glove, Jet Run would be another. But a horse who never even made it to its first start because he didn't hold up to the rigors of training? This is better than a future Hand in Glove?

It's just a poor choice of words to convey an idea which might have some merit, notwithstanding all the other issues. Words count, people!

[Nootka]

We apologize for the problem. The rule was not designed to exclude palomino TBs or WBs. It was designed to help alert the presence of non-WBFSH member breeds such as APHA, etc. It was not expected to have any significant impact on breeders given the low percentages of numbers in the population.

Robert
Continental Studbook

The precentages are getting larger every year. Soon they will no longer be the 10%..... then what?

[DMK]

The Jocky Club has explicit rules for color and explicitly does not recognize buckskin, cremello or patterning (pinto). Therefore, the Jockey Club has set a precedent for defining color, and it only allows palomino, roan and white outside of the identical list of the CS. So they have offended the breeders of Samber blood I guess, or warmblood breeders in general since the Jockey Club accepts only TBs?

The Jockey Club explicitly approved colors are bay, black, chestnut, dark bay/brown, gray/roan, palomino and white. There are no other options.

Robert
Continental Studbook

That's not precisely accurate. The JC doesn't care if it is purple with green stripes, sabino paisley polka dots, a belly spot and a camel tail with rabicano roots as long as it can be proven to be from two JC registered parents. Your description makes it sound like they exclude colors. They don't, they just don't think they are important enough to bother with - utterly irrelevant to the business, as it were.

Now something like the AQHA has criteria excluding certain colors, specifically as it pertains to chrome. I'm blanking on the specifics since they were changing every year back when I paid attention to thses things, but hwhite above the knee and a spot bigger than a quarter above the forearm/stifle ring some old bells. That's a color exclusion. That's NOT at all the same thing as what the JC does.

[alliekat]

While I like some of the idea's and concepts for this registry, I am the owner of a Tb mare that would not qualify. She never made it to the track and sustained a career ending eye injury that kept her from the Hunter Ring. I have choose to breed her.
She is a 6 year old having her first foal. I have choose a stallion that is OLD/ISR approved. Yes we will be taking them to the inspection. She hates to trailer but I fell there isn't much of a choice at this point.
Unfortunatly for her it will be years until her foals would have a chance to prove themselves in competition to help qualify her for the CS.
I don't know how I would feel about turning my back on the registry that registered and approved my mare's foals(if they are of quality) to then go some where else.


It breaks my heart that this mare isn't able to show, she is everything and more that I wanted for my daughters next show mount, but sometimes it is just the way that the cookies crumbles, ya know!!
I don't think or should I say I am hoping that her eye injury has no barring on the quality of foal she will produce.

http://www1.snapfish.com/slideshow/AlbumID=208508063/PictureID=4707732759/a=98790260_98790260/t_=98790260

I know that one registry won't work for everyone, and applaude all of the time, money and hard work that I know has gone into this. I wish you the best of luck and look forward to watching your progress.

[Spectrum]

I haven't had a chance to explore the site in depth so perhaps someone can answer this question. Will this registry try to become a member of the WBFSH?


This is EXACTLY my main question. Was it designed to A) meet the WBFSH requirements for member organizations, and B) Is the intent that this should be come a member?

I think at the end of the day, this will be the question that determines whether this organization succeeds or not, and whether people will be willing to leave their existing registries for it or not.

Spectrum.

[au_panda]

I am not even going to spend the time reading the 9 pages of this thread. I got as far as the post about off the track TB's not being acceptable for breeding. The website says this organization intends to register, promote hunters. Honestly, I know everyone on this board is not too young to know that hunters were TB's and only TB's:mad:. For pete's sake, it's a US sport started with the US TB.

Thanks but no thanks. I'll stick with the AHS, Oldenburg, Dutch, etc.

[Nootka]

This is EXACTLY my main question. Was it designed to A) meet the WBFSH requirements for member organizations, and B) Is the intent that this should be come a member?

I think at the end of the day, this will be the question that determines whether this organization succeeds or not, and whether people will be willing to leave their existing registries for it or not.

Spectrum.

I would agree... I would seriously think about leaving and going with them if they became a member. What is the point of following all the the WBFSH rules and only approving its members if it is not a member also? Alas, my program doesn't qualify anyway. Guess I will stick to GOV or RPSI.

[Daventry]

The Jocky Club has explicit rules for color and explicitly does not recognize buckskin, cremello or patterning (pinto). Therefore, the Jockey Club has set a precedent for defining color, and it only allows palomino, roan and white outside of the identical list of the CS. So they have offended the breeders of Samber blood I guess, or warmblood breeders in general since the Jockey Club accepts only TBs?

The Jockey Club explicitly approved colors are bay, black, chestnut, dark bay/brown, gray/roan, palomino and white. There are no other options.

Robert
Continental Studbook

Oy! That's so not what the jockey club does and/or why they do it. :rolleyes: Me thinks a shovel is needed for the deeper hole.

...I'm running to get popcorn and a drink!

[Continental Studbook]

This is EXACTLY my main question. Was it designed to A) meet the WBFSH requirements for member organizations, and B) Is the intent that this should be come a member?

I think at the end of the day, this will be the question that determines whether this organization succeeds or not, and whether people will be willing to leave their existing registries for it or not.

Spectrum.

A) YES

B) YES

The Studbook is designed for determined focus in the sports of dressage, eventing, hunter and jumping. It is designed to produce horses which will break into WBFSH ranking under a domestic brand name.

Continental Studbook

[Continental Studbook]

I am not even going to spend the time reading the 9 pages of this thread. I got as far as the post about off the track TB's not being acceptable for breeding. The website says this organization intends to register, promote hunters. Honestly, I know everyone on this board is not too young to know that hunters were TB's and only TB's:mad:. For pete's sake, it's a US sport started with the US TB.

Thanks but no thanks. I'll stick with the AHS, Oldenburg, Dutch, etc.

The Continental Studbook does not disallow TBs. In fact, it has policies to encourage breeding of 100% pedigree TBs which is not permitted in AHS, Oldenburg or KWPN-NA. Out of the registries that you listed, the Continental Studbook is the ONLY registry that will allow a hunter breeder to produce TBs. When the CS achieves WBFSH status, it will be the registry in which breeders can produce TB sport horses right along side WBs which may be marketable to Europe for blood improvement.

The Continentals Studbook is not a race horse registry; therefore, in order to perform this mating it requires that the sire and dam demonstrate suitability for sport. Former race horses are accepted if they demonstrate suitability for sport.

Continental Studbook

[Continental Studbook]

Oy! That's so not what the jockey club does and/or why they do it. :rolleyes: Me thinks a shovel is needed for the deeper hole.

...I'm running to get popcorn and a drink!

Our registrar pointed out that these are recognized just as you say. The Continental Studbook is focused upon breeding for Olympic sport and North American hunters. Color is not a core focus of the Studbook.

Continental Studbook

[Continental Studbook]

While I like some of the idea's and concepts for this registry, I am the owner of a Tb mare that would not qualify. She never made it to the track and sustained a career ending eye injury that kept her from the Hunter Ring. I have choose to breed her.
She is a 6 year old having her first foal. I have choose a stallion that is OLD/ISR approved. Yes we will be taking them to the inspection. She hates to trailer but I fell there isn't much of a choice at this point.
Unfortunatly for her it will be years until her foals would have a chance to prove themselves in competition to help qualify her for the CS.
I don't know how I would feel about turning my back on the registry that registered and approved my mare's foals(if they are of quality) to then go some where else.


It breaks my heart that this mare isn't able to show, she is everything and more that I wanted for my daughters next show mount, but sometimes it is just the way that the cookies crumbles, ya know!!
I don't think or should I say I am hoping that her eye injury has no barring on the quality of foal she will produce.

http://www1.snapfish.com/slideshow/AlbumID=208508063/PictureID=4707732759/a=98790260_98790260/t_=98790260

I know that one registry won't work for everyone, and applaude all of the time, money and hard work that I know has gone into this. I wish you the best of luck and look forward to watching your progress.

We are sorry that such a situation prevents you from using the CS. In order to enable the breeding of purebred TB sport horses, it is necessary for the Studbook to maintain requirements of sport demonstration for breeding animals. Once a TB is accepted by the Studbook as a sport horse, this requirement no longer exists for any following generations.

Continental Studbook

[sniplover]

I have read many of the posts here and, although I have no dog in any of these fights (being an observing learner rather than a current breeder), I would like to commend Continental Studbook's calm replies despite the many questions which range from aggressive to merely inquisitive.

I do think that there are some things left to be desired, but I anticipate that this registry will evolve and mature a bit... I wish everyone who has put time and energy into developing this registry the best of luck.

[Continental Studbook]

I have read many of the posts here and, although I have no dog in any of these fights (being an observing learner rather than a current breeder), I would like to commend Continental Studbook's calm replies despite the many questions which range from aggressive to merely inquisitive.

I do think that there are some things left to be desired, but I anticipate that this registry will evolve and mature a bit... I wish everyone who has put time and energy into developing this registry the best of luck.

Thank you. The Continental Studbook is committed to providing both WB and TB sport breeders top level service, the least bureaucracy, and the most efficient registrations while driving toward a WBFSH-member domestic quality brand name which will benefit breeders in commerce and marketing. In order to achieve this, not every situation can be served.

The Studbook has had more than one response from breeders that they would rather have some mares ineligible if it means that their best mares acquire registrations and services which have leading quality and performance reputation in the industry.

Continental Studbook

[DownYonder]

Anglo-Arabian is CS-ELIGIBLE due to WBFSH ranking in sport, but the domestic Arabian is not a WBFSH-member breed. The CS was not designed to capture domestic non-WBFSH breeds other than TBs which have a significant history in WBFSH contribution.

Robert
Continental Studbook

OK, but what about mares with WB sires and damsires, but Arabian bottom lines? If the mare holds registration papers from - say, Oldenburg, AHS, etc., would she be considered? A friend of mine has such a mare and she is looking for registry options as she lives in a state that does not hold WB inspections (Mississippi). BTW, the mare has showed with some success in hunters.

[Fairview Horse Center]

For TB mares that are able to compete, or their offspring, if the dam is not able to compete for one reason or another, what requirements need to be met for each discipline for her to be accepted? Will CS accept TB mares that have been inspected and accepted by other studbooks?

[vineyridge]

Of course, one huge benefit of this registry is that IF you do have a TB mare that qualifies, she can be bred AI to a TB stallion who also qualifies and there will be a place for her foals to be registered. I'm thinking about horses like Castle Cove and Fun and Fancy Free who would be good matches for many hunter TB mares but would require live cover for JC registration--and AFR, as well.

That plugs a huge gap that currently exists in NA for TBs who will never be aimed at the race track.

[Continental Studbook]

Of course, one huge benefit of this registry is that IF you do have a TB mare that qualifies, she can be bred AI to a TB stallion who also qualifies and there will be a place for her foals to be registered. I'm thinking about horses like Castle Cove and Fun and Fancy Free who would be good matches for many hunter TB mares but would require live cover for JC registration--and AFR, as well.

That plugs a huge gap that currently exists in NA for TBs who will never be aimed at the race track.

That was exactly the intent of the TB rules which could enable an entire market which right now is small. Consider the commerce of TB fillies and colts for hunters and stallion development, development of TB lines which are excellent sport horses but poor racehorses, re-emergence of significant TB hunter breeding from generations of hunters. Those are things that the CS considered important to serve the unique position of the TB in North America. The CS is very innovative. Just replicating the old model was not good enough.

Thank you for submitting the post that we were expecting but never came.

Continental Studbook

[Continental Studbook]

For TB mares that are able to compete, or their offspring, if the dam is not able to compete for one reason or another, what requirements need to be met for each discipline for her to be accepted? Will CS accept TB mares that have been inspected and accepted by other studbooks?

Sorry this is confusing. Who can and can't compete?

CS

[sporthorsefilly]

"Former race horses are accepted if they demonstrate suitability for sport."

Perhaps I am missing something. Since when is trotting and cantering 20 meter circles more of a sport than running against other horses at 35+ mph. Horse racing IS a Sport, though somewhat different from show horse sports, it still requires a superior athlete.

Most of the registries do accept TB mares based on their conformation. Some registries accept full TB stallions, so I don't see any added value here.

By the way, just incase you haven't seen colored TBs look here:
http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/Cool_and_Unusual_Thoroughbreds.html

Especially look at Puchilingui, who is a very loud bay sabino.

Or these Overo Thoroughbreds http://www.coloredhorses.com/tboveros.html

While the Jockey Club may not wish to get into whether a horse is sabino, some are fairly loud. AND quite eye catching!

Not interested in a registry that bars winning race mares who are injured in their sport nor a registry that is prejudice against the color of a horses skin/hair.

[vineyridge]

You know, the more I think about this, the more I think it may have a place. Look at all the lines of TBs that we know produce great sport horses--Blue Murmur, and the Night Spree line, for example--that haven't completely disappeared but are really off the radar. There are dedicated breeders who have preserved them, but the lines don't get the publicity they deserve, and most are only kept alive through AI. We all know that the Bonne Nuit/Bonne Cause lines are still chugging along producing good jumping horses, but their representatives are very hard to find, given that many of them are not JC registered.

Let's use Triple Twist as another example. He is JC registered, but the odds are that he will never stand live cover to any mare ever. If there ever was a TB stallion who should be bred for sport, just based on his pedigree, he's it.

What I'd really like to see is approval of TB mares and stallions based on known sport producers in their pedigrees.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Originally Posted by Fairview Horse Center
For TB mares that are able to compete, or their offspring, if the dam is not able to compete for one reason or another, what requirements need to be met for each discipline for her to be accepted? Will CS accept TB mares that have been inspected and accepted by other studbooks?

Sorry this is confusing. Who can and can't compete?CS

If the TB dam does compete, what sport requirement needs to be met for each discipline to be accepted into the CS book?

If the TB dam is not able to compete, what sport requirement needs to be met by her offspring for each discipline for her to be accepted into the CS book?

Will CS accept TB mares that have been inspected and accepted by other studbooks?

[Continental Studbook]

"Former race horses are accepted if they demonstrate suitability for sport."

Perhaps I am missing something. Since when is trotting and cantering 20 meter circles more of a sport than running against other horses at 35+ mph. Horse racing IS a Sport, though somewhat different from show horse sports, it still requires a superior athlete.

Most of the registries do accept TB mares based on their conformation. Some registries accept full TB stallions, so I don't see any added value here.

By the way, just incase you haven't seen colored TBs look here:
http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/Cool_and_Unusual_Thoroughbreds.html

Especially look at Puchilingui, who is a very loud bay sabino.

Or these Overo Thoroughbreds http://www.coloredhorses.com/tboveros.html

While the Jockey Club may not wish to get into whether a horse is sabino, some are fairly loud. AND quite eye catching!

Not interested in a registry that bars winning race mares who are injured in their sport nor a registry that is prejudice against the color of a horses skin/hair.

Hunter type, movement and jumping technique are not very related to ability to run at high speed or long distance; otherwise, WBs and WB x TB would be far less successful in the sport. We are sorry that the studbook does not meet your expectations.

Continental Studbook

[Fairview Horse Center]

Hunter type, movement and jumping technique are not very related to ability to run at high speed or long distance;

That is why it has always surprised me that the European Registries accept racing as performance for TB stallions.

[PineTreeFarm]

.

Let's use Triple Twist as another example. He is JC registered, but the odds are that he will never stand live cover to any mare ever. If there ever was a TB stallion who should be bred for sport, just based on his pedigree, he's it.

What I'd really like to see is approval of TB mares and stallions based on known sport producers in their pedigrees.

Yes, but would Triple Twist be approved in CS?
For sure his pedigree is a great source of Bonne Nuit lines.
But if the requirement is performance would he qualify?

It's the same argument as being able to use OTTB mares that have no performance record themselves but come from families that are known producers. Sounded like the answer was no in that scenario.

Some of the lines you mentioned are valuable and should be preserved but the remnants of those lines have no sport horse records themselves.

I certainly agree, it would be great to have a registry for AI TB's ( but I don't think CS is THAT registry).
.

[Continental Studbook]

You know, the more I think about this, the more I think it may have a place. Look at all the lines of TBs that we know produce great sport horses--Blue Murmur, and the Night Spree line, for example--that haven't completely disappeared but are really off the radar. There are dedicated breeders who have preserved them, but the lines don't get the publicity they deserve, and most are only kept alive through AI. We all know that the Bonne Nuit/Bonne Cause lines are still chugging along producing good jumping horses, but their representatives are very hard to find, given that many of them are not JC registered.

Let's use Triple Twist as another example. He is JC registered, but the odds are that he will never stand live cover to any mare ever. If there ever was a TB stallion who should be bred for sport, just based on his pedigree, he's it.

What I'd really like to see is approval of TB mares and stallions based on known sport producers in their pedigrees.

This is the kind of discussion that we expected to evolve. The TB breeding is occuring and there is a healthy market, but it is the understanding of the CS that many are unregistered, breeders are unsatisfied with options such as PHR and that the landscape is fragmented. The CS is able to offer a brand name, ability to use AI, frozen semen, oocyte transfer and ET, and many other advantages.

Continental Studbook

[Continental Studbook]

Yes, but would Triple Twist be approved in CS?
For sure his pedigree is a great source of Bonne Nuit lines.
But if the requirement is performance would he qualify?

It's the same argument as being able to use OTTB mares that have no performance record themselves but come from families that are known producers. Sounded like the answer was no in that scenario.

Some of the lines you mentioned are valuable and should be preserved but the remnants of those lines have no sport horse records themselves.

I certainly agree, it would be great to have a registry for AI TB's ( but I don't think CS is THAT registry).
.

According to the CS rules, all Jockey Club horses that have demonstrated offspring production for sport are eligible to apply for breeding licensing. Since most of these stallions in discussion have no WBFSH-member licensing which enable them to qualify as EXTRINSIC-CS-LICENSED stallions (e.g., Coconut Grove), they would have to apply directly for CS-LICENSING.

Continental Studbook

[Continental Studbook]

Yes, but would Triple Twist be approved in CS?
For sure his pedigree is a great source of Bonne Nuit lines.
But if the requirement is performance would he qualify?

It's the same argument as being able to use OTTB mares that have no performance record themselves but come from families that are known producers. Sounded like the answer was no in that scenario.

Some of the lines you mentioned are valuable and should be preserved but the remnants of those lines have no sport horse records themselves.

I certainly agree, it would be great to have a registry for AI TB's ( but I don't think CS is THAT registry).
.

The following are 3 ways that a horse (TB or WB) may demonstrate suitability for sport:

(a) The horse has an acceptable sport record in one of the Olympic disciplines or in the American hunter discipline.
(b) The horse has already produced successful sport horse offspring for the same above.
(c) The horse is the offspring of a sire and dam meeting either (a) or (b) above.

So in laymen terms, it was either competitive in sport, its parent(s) were competitive in sport, it produced offspring competitive in sport, or it's parents have produced offspring competitive in sport. This rule applies to non-core WBFSH-member warmbloods as well. It is NOT a prejudicial rule for TBs. The Studbook does not differentiate between sport horses except by WBFSH annual rankings.

Continental Studbook

[PineTreeFarm]

The following are 3 ways that a horse (TB or WB) may demonstrate suitability for sport:

(a) The horse has an acceptable sport record in one of the Olympic disciplines or in the American hunter discipline.
(b) The horse has already produced successful sport horse offspring for the same above.
(c) The horse is the offspring of a sire and dam meeting either (a) or (b) above.

So in laymen terms, it was either competitive in sport, its parent(s) were competitive in sport, it produced offspring competitive in sport, or it's parents have produced offspring competitive in sport. This rule applies to non-core WBFSH-member warmbloods as well. It is NOT a prejudicial rule for TBs. The Studbook does not differentiate between sport horses except by WBFSH annual rankings.

Continental Studbook

So there you go Viney.
Under the 'rules' sounds like Triple Twist isn't eligible.

And the irony is CS says they want to promote horse like Gem Twist. LOL

[Continental Studbook]

So there you go Viney.
Under the 'rules' sounds like Triple Twist isn't eligible.

And the irony is CS says they want to promote horse like Gem Twist. LOL

Some of you really need to stop jumping to assumptions, open up your mind, and look at the opportunities that the CS is enabling.

Triple Twist is NOT a race horse. He is a sport horse, and he IS eligible to apply for licensing with the Continental Studbook, as are several other stallions including both recently mentioned in this thread.

"He is competing successfully in Eventing at the Novice and Training levels with hopes of moving up to Prelim in the coming year. "

Continental Studbook

[Fairview Horse Center]

The following are 3 ways that a horse (TB or WB) may demonstrate suitability for sport:

(a) The horse has an acceptable sport record in one of the Olympic disciplines or in the American hunter discipline.
(b) The horse has already produced successful sport horse offspring for the same above.
(c) The horse is the offspring of a sire and dam meeting either (a) or (b) above.



What is an "acceptable" sport record?

[Kareen]

Hmm I don't know about the criteria but traditionally sporthorse breeding relies on TB to maintain or improve type, stamina, nerve, toughness, canter, speed and power within the breed. I don't exactly see why a successful career in racing should be counterproductive or why a good performance in racing should *not* be considered when it comes to selecting TB stallions to introduce to such sporthorse programms. Afterall whether or not an OTT racehorse can do anything for jumping or dressage will never come known unless someone tries to either convert them or use them for breeding?
It seems backwards to suggest there are racing TB's and sporthorse TB's because at least all TB I know have been bred for racing and nothing else. If one of them fails at racing and becomes a famous improvement sire in sporthorse breeding that is one thing but it doesn't change a think about TB's being bred to race either on the flat or over jumps does it?

[Sonesta]

And CS seems to have avoided the question of eligibility of the AHS and GOV, etc. horses out there that have an Arabian dam.

And how far back are you going to look at pedigrees to determine if the mare or stallion has "ineligible (read: undesirable)" bloodlines?

[Tiki]

I see nothing in this new registry whatsoever that would make me want to jump ship or dual register or whatever.

[PineTreeFarm]

Some of you really need to stop jumping to assumptions, open up your mind, and look at the opportunities that the CS is enabling.

Triple Twist is NOT a race horse. He is a sport horse, and he IS eligible to apply for licensing with the Continental Studbook, as are several other stallions including both recently mentioned in this thread.

"He is competing successfully in Eventing at the Novice and Training levels with hopes of moving up to Prelim in the coming year. "

Continental Studbook

Not to pick on TT but can you define successful?
What level of eventing, show jumping and hunters makes the cut?

I'm guessing you got the quote about TT from a website, not through any research.

[Continental Studbook]

What is an "acceptable" sport record?

The Studbook is interested in an age appropriate demonstration of ability in one of the four sports. It could be Level 3/4/5 jumper for a 4-5 year old, etc. It could be green hunter for appropriate age, etc. Substitute appropriate levels for the other sports. Absolute peak of the sport is not necessary for older horses.

The Studbook is generally interested in seeing finishes in the top 30-50% of classes or better or what any experienced reasonable horse person would consider good results per faults, scores, etc.

Continental Studbook

[PineTreeFarm]

The Studbook is interested in an age appropriate demonstration of ability in one of the four sports. It could be Level 3/4/5 jumper for a 4-5 year old, etc. It could be green hunter for appropriate age, etc. Substitute appropriate levels for the other sports. Absolute peak of the sport is not necessary for older horses.

The Studbook is generally interested in seeing finishes in the top 30-50% of classes or better or what any experienced reasonable horse person would consider good results per faults, scores, etc.

Continental Studbook

In other words, you don't have any specific criteria and will make it up as you go along.

Do you mean to say that a top 50% in Novice or Training Level eventing is acceptable for a mature horse? Just asking.

[Continental Studbook]

Not to pick on TT but can you define successful?
What level of eventing, show jumping and hunters makes the cut?

I'm guessing you got the quote about TT from a website, not through any research.

Yes, this came from the website. There were some finishes at training level, etc. If TT were a mare, it would be accepted for sure. Stallion licensing should have a reasonably high bar, but TT is eligible to apply and the Studbook would evaluate whether he would be licensed.

Many TB stallions have been breeding hunters with excellent results already. They are clearly eligible to apply. As stallions age, the results of their progeny are far more important than any other indicator and carry significant weight in determining licensing. The Studbook does not care about the stallion's own performance record if it has been producing champion hunters for example.

Continental Studbook

[Continental Studbook]

In other words, you don't have any specific criteria and will make it up as you go along.

Do you mean to say that a top 50% in Novice or Training Level eventing is acceptable for a mature horse? Just asking.

That was not said, and we suspect that you are going to criticize any response as there appears to be an agenda here. Your posts are showing a trend of misinterpreting the positions of the Studbook. If the Studbook is not for you, please allow others to make up their mind if it can provide a quality brand name for their horses.

The CS understands that a jumper may win one class, finish third in another and finish in the top 45% in another, for example. Such finishes if at an age appropriate level would be considered appropriate demonstration of sport ability.

Continental Studbook

[omare]

I do think this has been very thoughtfuly put together and shows alot of hard work and also tries to address many of the issues raised here on this forum. It has actually tried to put into action many of what has been identified as problems and strengths and attributes of sporthorse breeding that is unique to the United States. To me, the CS seems, among other things, to apply the sporthorse version of what I would call "best practices" from different stud books to set standards that may in the future "systematically" improve upon what we have. I am sure it will be subject to tweaking, but I am impressed with the foundation.

(I just have to figure out where my mares fit in--or if not them --the next generation since I think the aim is for generational breeding ;-)

[Small Spark]

Hunter type, movement and jumping technique are not very related to ability to run at high speed or long distance; otherwise, WBs and WB x TB would be far less successful in the sport. We are sorry that the studbook does not meet your expectations.

Continental Studbook
I really don't like to get involved in these types of argument, but this is a seriously misguided statement. Breeding for racing has produced horses with a high percentage of type I and IIB oxidative muscle fiber types. These correspond to increased splenic size for further oxygen carrying capacity of the blood due to increased polycythemia. This increased stamina results in greater effectiveness of the posture muscles, and so directly influences the hunter form over the fence. The other major consideration is the skeletal structure, which is why stayers such as those lines selected for steeplechasing and national hunt have played a major role. This is why hunter breeding has focussed on the thoroughbred, and high blood quotient warmblood for such a long time. :) Let's not forget that the dam of Butterfly Flip was an unproven TB. My concern with this not being a WBFSH recognized association is the fact that there is no possibility to enter any FEI young horse classes. All the best to you and your endeavor.

[Molly Malone]

I do think this has been very thoughtfuly put together and shows alot of hard work and also tries to address many of the issues raised here on this forum. It has actually tried to put into action many of what has been identified as problems and strengths and attributes of sporthorse breeding that is unique to the United States. To me, the CS seems, among other things, to apply the sporthorse version of what I would call "best practices" from different stud books to set standards that may in the future "systematically" improve upon what we have. I am sure it will be subject to tweaking, but I am impressed with the foundation.



I wholeheartedly agree.

I also think it unreasonable to expect a Studbook to please all of the people all of the time. If it works for you, great. If it doesn't, then continue as you were. This Studbook will work for me, given the distances I have to travel for inspections, and thus I will support it. I also believe that an American Studbook, free of the baggage of the AWR/AWS/OldNA/ISR etc etc etc, is something that we American breeders need.

[Fairview Horse Center]

In other words, you don't have any specific criteria and will make it up as you go along.

That is also what will lead to a feeling of a "good ole boy" system, and in this country it is critical to have clarity and fairness.

[crestline]

I'd like to make a guess that some of the continued questions about the TB issue are coming from those of us that think the idea is interesting and could serve a need...or feel like some of our best stock is specifically left out of a registry that is supposed to serve the US market...I know I personally can say that I can think of clients of mine that it would work for (and possibly me as well) but the TB issue takes a huge chunk of horses that look to be fabulous producers and make them ineligible for many years of their production life.

I do think this can be a great idea....I think discounting the contribution of TB mares may alienate a ton of potential breeders that are producing nice horses. Is tweaking that requirement something that the registry would consider to truly serve the need a huge chunk of the US market? I think "acceptable" level of sport is a little vague...I'm curious how I would take that back to present to our breeding clients.

I would like to commend the Registry on it's thoughtful and calm answers to all the questions posted here. It is not surprising that this idea is generating a lot of emotion:-)

[Fairview Horse Center]

I'd like to make a guess that some of the continued questions about the TB issue are coming from those of us that think the idea is interesting and could serve a need...

Exactly. There are many good points about this registry, but also some serious issues. I would like to think this is a work in progress and discussion can help to mold it into a really good option for many US breeders.

[sporthorsefilly]

Does anyone else find these rules a problem??

Section 2-General Rules

2.0 OFFICIALS. All decisions on registrations, approvals, and licensing are made by a committee of at least three Breeding Officials of the Continental Studbook. Their decisions are final.

2.1 EXCEPTIONS. Exceptions to the rules and procedures due to unforeseen reasons can be requested by contacting the Continental Studbook. Any decision to grant an exception to the rules requires a unanimous consent by a committee of at least three Breeding Officials of the Continental Studbook. Their decisions are final.

OK, question #1...who are these officials and who is on the committee?

questions #2... Without keurings, stallion inspections, mare inspections how is said committee to make decisions?

Anyone notice that these studbooks are not recognized, and status is individually granted:

AHHA ---This one is interesting since the principles came from AHHA.
AWR
AWS
CWHBA
Jockey Club (TB)
ISR/OldNA
RPSI

I've already determined that while a great deal of thought and planning went into this endeavor, it is just not for me. I am extremely satisfied with my registry, and proud to help it in any way that I can.

As someone else pointed out, this sounds like a good 'o' boys club.

To my mind, and breeding philosophy, I just don't see a benefit over the existing registries.

[Continental Studbook]

That is also what will lead to a feeling of a "good ole boy" system, and in this country it is critical to have clarity and fairness.

The situation is absolutely not a make it up direction. Every detail of the studbook has been exhaustively reviewed. We felt breeders would rather not have a long table of four sports by different ages by every possible situation, and this is opposite the Studbook's positions of low bureaucracy. Applications are case by case, and there are no principles with non-WBFSH-member mares to need manipulation of the system.

The Studbook strongly subscribes to heritage and purpose based breeding. There are plans for unique tools and technology in the future for breeders to track mare families, correlate performance results, analyze conformations, etc.

For this issue of OTTB horses demonstrating suitability, all the Studbook is looking for is evidence that the horse will be a good representative of the sport and the CS brand name by demonstrating some capability in any of the four core sports. We expected this to be received as basic horsemanship among our customer base, and for most people it has been.

Regarding results of x, y, z for any mare.. contact the registrar. We will be happy to discuss individual mares (and have been doing it all week), and every application has a full refund if the mare is not approved. The vast majority of inquiries come out positive.

The OTTB language and explanations on the website are going to be revised, as this could have been done much better.

Continental Studbook

[Continental Studbook]

Does anyone else find these rules a problem??

Section 2-General Rules

2.0 OFFICIALS. All decisions on registrations, approvals, and licensing are made by a committee of at least three Breeding Officials of the Continental Studbook. Their decisions are final.

2.1 EXCEPTIONS. Exceptions to the rules and procedures due to unforeseen reasons can be requested by contacting the Continental Studbook. Any decision to grant an exception to the rules requires a unanimous consent by a committee of at least three Breeding Officials of the Continental Studbook. Their decisions are final.

OK, question #1...who are these officials and who is on the committee?

questions #2... Without keurings, stallion inspections, mare inspections how is said committee to make decisions?

Anyone notice that these studbooks are not recognized, and status is individually granted:

AHHA ---This one is interesting since the principles came from AHHA.
AWR
AWS
CWHBA
Jockey Club (TB)
ISR/OldNA
RPSI

I've already determined that while a great deal of thought and planning went into this endeavor, it is just not for me. I am extremely satisfied with my registry, and proud to help it in any way that I can.

As someone else pointed out, this sounds like a good 'o' boys club.

To my mind, and breeding philosophy, I just don't see a benefit over the existing registries.

You are (intentionally) misquoting a set of rules. That section has nothing to with mares (but you conveniently left out that part of the rules). Those studbooks are identified as not performing x-rays as part of stallion licensing. The CS requires radiographic examination of stallions including its own in the future, so any stallion whose sole licensing is in those studbooks must satisfy x-ray requirements with us to be added to the EXTRINSIC-CS-LICENSED list. We have been working with stallion owners all week to update multiple stallions to the list.

If your only purpose is to dig for faults and you have no intention of using the Studbook, please leave this conversation to those that want to seriously explore the Studbook in good faith.

Continental Studbook

[Continental Studbook]

I really don't like to get involved in these types of argument, but this is a seriously misguided statement. Breeding for racing has produced horses with a high percentage of type I and IIB oxidative muscle fiber types. These correspond to increased splenic size for further oxygen carrying capacity of the blood due to increased polycythemia. This increased stamina results in greater effectiveness of the posture muscles, and so directly influences the hunter form over the fence. The other major consideration is the skeletal structure, which is why stayers such as those lines selected for steeplechasing and national hunt have played a major role. This is why hunter breeding has focussed on the thoroughbred, and high blood quotient warmblood for such a long time. :) Let's not forget that the dam of Butterfly Flip was an unproven TB. My concern with this not being a WBFSH recognized association is the fact that there is no possibility to enter any FEI young horse classes. All the best to you and your endeavor.

There is no questioning athletic ability in race horses, but not very horse can move or jump in a way that will lead to success dressage, eventing, hunter or jumper. The CS is focused on establishing performance results and brand name in those four sports only.

Continental Studbook

[Continental Studbook]

I'd like to make a guess that some of the continued questions about the TB issue are coming from those of us that think the idea is interesting and could serve a need...or feel like some of our best stock is specifically left out of a registry that is supposed to serve the US market...I know I personally can say that I can think of clients of mine that it would work for (and possibly me as well) but the TB issue takes a huge chunk of horses that look to be fabulous producers and make them ineligible for many years of their production life.

I do think this can be a great idea....I think discounting the contribution of TB mares may alienate a ton of potential breeders that are producing nice horses. Is tweaking that requirement something that the registry would consider to truly serve the need a huge chunk of the US market? I think "acceptable" level of sport is a little vague...I'm curious how I would take that back to present to our breeding clients.

I would like to commend the Registry on it's thoughtful and calm answers to all the questions posted here. It is not surprising that this idea is generating a lot of emotion:-)

The CS does NOT discount the contribution of TB mares. That could not possibly be the position in a registry that allows breeding and registration of purebred TBs.

The CS only requires some demonstration of sport suitability to transfer mares bred specifically for racing into its books which are designed specifically for dressage, eventing, hunters and jumpers. TB sport mares are accepted.

Continental Studbook

[Equilibrium]

Really, I'm not understanding all the fuss about TB mares and this is from someone who ONLY uses TB mares in breeding warmbloods. I am actually trying to breed a horse for sport as I'm sure others are as well. But if your head is buried in the sand and you have 4 progeny of the mare of an age to do something and they haven't done so, why should they be extending an arm for these TB mares?

As a breeder, it's your job to make sure something gets out there and gets the job done. I think all they're looking for is something that says this mare can produce a horse that will suit the one of the 4 sports. Isn't that what we are supposed to be breeding for?

Geez, I'm as loyal a person to racehorses and TB mares you will find, but if I'm breeding for sport, well then they better well do something in sport or I'm just not going to be breeding said mare anymore. That is the end goal here isn't it?

Terri

[ponygirl]

While I like some of the idea's and concepts for this registry, I am the owner of a Tb mare that would not qualify. She never made it to the track and sustained a career ending eye injury that kept her from the Hunter Ring. I have choose to breed her.
She is a 6 year old having her first foal. I have choose a stallion that is OLD/ISR approved. Yes we will be taking them to the inspection. She hates to trailer but I fell there isn't much of a choice at this point.
Unfortunatly for her it will be years until her foals would have a chance to prove themselves in competition to help qualify her for the CS.
I don't know how I would feel about turning my back on the registry that registered and approved my mare's foals(if they are of quality) to then go some where else.


It breaks my heart that this mare isn't able to show, she is everything and more that I wanted for my daughters next show mount, but sometimes it is just the way that the cookies crumbles, ya know!!
I don't think or should I say I am hoping that her eye injury has no barring on the quality of foal she will produce.

http://www1.snapfish.com/slideshow/AlbumID=208508063/PictureID=4707732759/a=98790260_98790260/t_=98790260

I know that one registry won't work for everyone, and applaude all of the time, money and hard work that I know has gone into this. I wish you the best of luck and look forward to watching your progress.


Alliekat,

We showed a horse that was blind in one eye in the hunter rings at HITs, etc. The rules have changed to allow this. So if she's as handy as our guy, don't give up. Our guy went on to do some jumper stuff as well as event! Now he's teaching kids :)

[Continental Studbook]

And CS seems to have avoided the question of eligibility of the AHS and GOV, etc. horses out there that have an Arabian dam.

And how far back are you going to look at pedigrees to determine if the mare or stallion has "ineligible (read: undesirable)" bloodlines?

Eligible bloodlines are defined to exactly to match the WBFSH membership and inlcude TBs, and the CS did not define the registries of WBFSH. The CS was not designed to include non-WBFSH bloodlines. Such mares could apply for entry as exceptions as the percentage of non-WBFSH genetics is reduced.

Continental Studbook

[Continental Studbook]

I'd like to make a guess that some of the continued questions about the TB issue are coming from those of us that think the idea is interesting and could serve a need...or feel like some of our best stock is specifically left out of a registry that is supposed to serve the US market...I know I personally can say that I can think of clients of mine that it would work for (and possibly me as well) but the TB issue takes a huge chunk of horses that look to be fabulous producers and make them ineligible for many years of their production life.

I do think this can be a great idea....I think discounting the contribution of TB mares may alienate a ton of potential breeders that are producing nice horses. Is tweaking that requirement something that the registry would consider to truly serve the need a huge chunk of the US market? I think "acceptable" level of sport is a little vague...I'm curious how I would take that back to present to our breeding clients.

I would like to commend the Registry on it's thoughtful and calm answers to all the questions posted here. It is not surprising that this idea is generating a lot of emotion:-)

Please contact the registrar directly for any potential breedings. The CS is willing to work with breeders in every way possible to help them demonstrate suitability and register quality horses.

Continental Studbook

[Spectrum]

I have to say that I was initially very skeptical and ready to find fault with this organization, mainly because I couldn't get past the idea of not having inspections. However the more I hear about it, the better thought-out it sounds.

Additionally, I think that of the current registries that are not included as acceptable bloodlines, I can see that those which were not accepted are the same that are currently not recognized as registries with qualifying bloodlines for most of the European registries.

I think by excluding those organizations with potentially "disputable" bloodlines (and horses with such, ie. CP horses or specialty coloring), they will much increase their chances of becoming registries that are recognized as legitmate/verified bloodlines that can be crossed with and/or infused into the European registries. And *that* is what will put the North American breeding scene on equal footing with the European one, more than any other single thing.

Up until now Europe has been able to exclude our horses by saying that there were disallowed bloodlines, yadda, yadda, yadda. CS is nipping that in the bud and only taking those proven allowable by the European registries' own rules, and could very well beat them at their own game. Imagine what it would do for the value of North American sport horses if those of top quality were eligible to be licensed for all the European registries as well as ours?

Spectrum.

[Continental Studbook]

I have to say that I was initially very skeptical and ready to find fault with this organization, mainly because I couldn't get past the idea of not having inspections. However the more I hear about it, the better thought-out it sounds.

Additionally, I think that of the current registries that are not included as acceptable bloodlines, I can see that those which were not accepted are the same that are currently not recognized as registries with qualifying bloodlines for most of the European registries.

I think by excluding those organizations with potentially "disputable" bloodlines (and horses with such, ie. CP horses or specialty coloring), they will much increase their chances of becoming registries that are recognized as legitmate/verified bloodlines that can be crossed with and/or infused into the European registries. And *that* is what will put the North American breeding scene on equal footing with the European one, more than any other single thing.

Up until now Europe has been able to exclude our horses by saying that there were disallowed bloodlines, yadda, yadda, yadda. CS is nipping that in the bud and only taking those proven allowable by the European registries' own rules, and could very well beat them at their own game. Imagine what it would do for the value of North American sport horses if those of top quality were eligible to be licensed for all the European registries as well as ours?

Spectrum.

Yes, exactly. We thought that this would be clear, but the message has been very distracted.

The Studbook was designed to put North American breeding on equal footing in terms of focused breeding direction, brand name, image, performance results, marketing and commerce. That is why it is matched identically to WBFSH bloodlines and TBs (which have history in Europe) and why it cannot accept race horses without consideration of whether or not they are suitable for the sports.

It also creates the ability to breed sport TBs which may be attractive to the European market.

Now on top of those valuable issues, the Studbook provides very friendly breeder and stallion owner services, as well as innovative methods to drive that success in the vast geography of North America.

Continental Studbook

[not again]

Way back when the PHR was the Half Thoroughbred stud book and was purchased from the Jockey Club by USEF, I was told that the PHR could not join the WBFSH because it did not require inspections, and that was one of the criteria for a registry to have membership in the WBFSH. When did the rules change?

[DownYonder]

QUOTE:
Originally Posted by Sonesta
And CS seems to have avoided the question of eligibility of the AHS and GOV, etc. horses out there that have an Arabian dam.

And how far back are you going to look at pedigrees to determine if the mare or stallion has "ineligible (read: undesirable)" bloodlines? UNQUOTE

Eligible bloodlines are defined to exactly to match the WBFSH membership and inlcude TBs, and the CS did not define the registries of WBFSH. The CS was not designed to include non-WBFSH bloodlines. Such mares could apply for entry as exceptions as the percentage of non-WBFSH genetics is reduced.

Continental Studbook

Thank you for answering this. I understand where you are coming from regarding trying to stay in alignment with WBFSH member registries and bloodlines. If I understand this correctly, an AHS registered mare with an approved Hanoverian sire and Arabian dam can apply for entry as an exception - correct? Must that mare have a show record? What about her Arabian dam?

[Continental Studbook]

Way back when the PHR was the Half Thoroughbred stud book and was purchased from the Jockey Club by USEF, I was told that the PHR could not join the WBFSH because it did not require inspections, and that was one of the criteria for a registry to have membership in the WBFSH. When did the rules change?

The Studbook inspects your mares, but with new technology.

[Continental Studbook]

QUOTE:
Originally Posted by Sonesta
And CS seems to have avoided the question of eligibility of the AHS and GOV, etc. horses out there that have an Arabian dam.

And how far back are you going to look at pedigrees to determine if the mare or stallion has "ineligible (read: undesirable)" bloodlines? UNQUOTE



Thank you for answering this. I understand where you are coming from regarding trying to stay in alignment with WBFSH member registries and bloodlines. If I understand this correctly, an AHS registered mare with an approved Hanoverian sire and Arabian dam can apply for entry as an exception - correct? Must that mare have a show record? What about her Arabian dam?

Yes could apply, but any mare with 50% non-WBFSH bloodlines would require fairly significant performance results. It would have to achieve our Performance Indicator which does have hard coded metrics for each sport. This will be rolled out in the near future. As the percentage goes down, so will the demand on performance.

Continental Studbook

[alliekat]

Thank you ponygirl. She is due any day now and has been booked back to Escapade for a 2110 foal. Maybe after that she will get a chance to get out and about.
Thanks for the encouragement. We love her!!!

[buschkn]

I think it all sounds great and I agree with Equilibrium and Spectrum. If people are soooo fired up about not being able to breed their OTTB mares without any evidence of sport performance, pedigree, or progeny, again, there are plenty of other options available. I completely respect the goals and intent of this registry and hope they have great success.

I am also VERY impressed by the rational, well thought out, and calm responses in the face of so much venom.

[buschkn]

PS: To Allikat, your mare is BEAUTIFUL!! Good luck with her. Also, I have a stallion who is blind in one eye and you would never know. He is super to ride and can jump the moon! :)

[alliekat]

buschkn
Thank you.
She is so easy to ride that I can put anyone on her. She will jump anything you put in front of her and then will pack a complete beginner around a cross rail course.
I hope over the next few years she is able to produce offspring that will help make her eligible for this registry. I like a lot about it. I really would love the option of AI to a TB stallion.
Time will tell.
Thanks again

[BravAddict]

Bumping this back up with a new question.

I understand that mares are to be evaluated using photos. How does the Continental Studbook plan to deal with photo doctoring?

[Ajierene]

I was going to e-mail, but I think my questions and suggestions are for the good of the group.

I have a 15.2 thoroughbred mare with fairly insignificant breeding. Is her height a problem?

While she was bred to race and has a few half-siblings (on her dam's side) that raced, I have yet to be able to find anything about her sire, though I believe her grandsire is a Canadian Thoroughbred race horse. Is her pedigree a problem?

She also has one slightly clubbed foot. How is confirmation determined?

Mostly due to financial issues, I have only competed her in a few recognized horse trials in the eventing world, though we have been competing for many years. Does she have enough of a performance record to be eligible?

I am planning on breeding her to a Holstein stud. The studs I have in mind are all in the Continental Studbook.

If she is not in the studbook, could her offspring be eligible?

This also goes along the lines of the questions about thoroughbred mares that go from the track to the breeding shed or Warmblood mares that do nothing but breed.

I did not see it in your website, but could you offer something like a 'provisional' registry?

This would be where you could give papers to the mare owner stating that providing the mare shows offspring that can perform, she can be registered. Maybe something that a mare owner can give to the person who buys the offspring so that after their first show year, they can register the horse. While a warmblood mare may be able to show ability through parents, this can help the breeders that routinely go to the track to find suitable mares for their program. This may also help people like myself who are breeding for personal use, but would like to register the foals.

This can alleviate some of the worries of the owners of thoroughbred mares that go from the track directly to the breeding shed-their first foal could easily be registered, rather than going through quite so many hoops. After the first offspring is registered, or at least declared eligible, the mare and all her offspring can be 'grandfathered' in. These papers could also be provided at the cost of the registration fee, then the actual registration would be free (as far as administration-you already have all the information in a databank, it is just a matter of moving it over, so administration should be minimal to be nonexistant). With the mare owner paying for this, it will help encourage the new owner to register the horse (biggest factor in an amateur not wanting to register a horse seems to be the fee). The mare owner can also officially register any other offspring in her care a bit more easily. This is provided that the offspring also have such provisional papers. Any offspring of the now-registered mare that does not have provisional papers would be registered the standard way.

I love being an American and tend to be patriotic. I would love to register my foal as an 'American Warmblood' of some sort, but am dismayed that the AWR and AWS do not allow full thoroughbreds or full Arabians, but other hot breeds such as the Quarter horse or Paint are allowed. People seem to forget that prior to the first half of last century, a horse that ran long distances was a thoroughbred while one that ran short distances was a Quarterhorse....they have very close bloodlines.

I would also suggest doing away with color criteria - incompatible bloodlines can be seen in the pedigree.

I am also wondering about the height requirement. Many horses 17.2 and taller suffer issues due to the confirmation flaws that come because of their height. The taller the horse, the more likely the issues. A horse is 14.3HH and over - why not accept all horses? Personally speaking, I do not want a tall horse. 15.2HH - 16HH is my ideal, due to my own height and build. A 14.3HH horse is not necessarily less athletic.

[Equilibrium]

Ajierene,

How did your mare do at the competitions as you haven't stated? Having a club foot is a no no in any registry.

As far as 15.2 is concerned most registries are usually 15.3 hands. Here in Ireland 15.2 is considered a pony. Many 15.2's are registered with the IPS, the Irish Pony society. I'm partial to smaller horses myself, but most registries don't accept them.

I know this studbook is getting a lot of flack for not accepting TB's at face value. But those of us keen on using TB mares and rave about this and that in the pedigree need to realize it means nothing unless they do something in sport. If you have a foal for sale out of a TB mare and both are in the CS studbook that says to anyone performance is somewhere in the pedigree through the dam. That speaks for itself when trying to buy a horse. In the long run I can see only benefits to people with TB mares and it means you'll want to get those horses out doing something. Even with TB racemares if you don't get the results from her progeny, you aren't going to sell for a profit. You might get lucky on the first couple of foals, but after that, they look elsewhere for the page that's current.

Here's a chance to disprove all the naysayers about TB mares in breeding and a chance to prove what they can do. So I can't understand all the backlash. I know when I started breeding my TB mare it wasn't so she would have pretty babies, I wanted a horse that could prove it's worth in the sporthorse world. And if they aren't, then I won't probably won't breed. Reason being I will have bred good riding horses already and won't need a new one every year. It all depends on what you want to accomplish in your breeding. Nothing wrong with good decent riding horses who are safe and do well, but as this is a performance studbook they're looking for the perfomance.

Terri

Terri

[Continental Studbook]

The Studbook decided to operate a pass/fail policy and a policy that all horses once entered into the Studbook are granted equal status, rules and opportunity, so there can be no provisional book which would have unequal status.

The reason for this is that such registry policies infer quality of one mare verses another for breeding and sport, when the reliability of such predictions from registry systems is poor. Also, such policies tend to pit breeder against breeder. These problems do not advance the interest of developing a domestic brand name and building commerce. For that we need breeders communicating with and educating each other.

Photographs are submitted along with other supporting information, if available, in step 1 of a 2 step process (the application is now available on the website). The veterinary process in step 2 is one more step to catch congenital defects and fraud. Editing such as contrast, brightness, etc., can do nothing to hide conformation and common defects. The Studbook is not concerned with cosmetic issues such as cuts, scratches, oozing horse bites, etc., so there is no motivation to edit those. It is extremely difficult to photoshop features of a horse such as topline, hocks, pasterns, etc, and attempts to do so will usually be very clear. If there are blurring, cropping, cut and past or other affects applied, a rejection will come quickly.

Breeders should be not be fearful of applying though. The Studbook is looking for correct, normal, healthy, capable. This is the goal of most, if not all, inspections. An additional priority of Studbook process is to keep congenital defects from the breeding population. It is not trying to operate a beauty contest, and it will not reject your mares for mystery qualities that cannot be described. Every rejection must include a reason that can be written and described to the mare owner.

Continental Studbook

[Continental Studbook]

Ajierene,

How did your mare do at the competitions as you haven't stated? Having a club foot is a no no in any registry.

As far as 15.2 is concerned most registries are usually 15.3 hands. Here in Ireland 15.2 is considered a pony. Many 15.2's are registered with the IPS, the Irish Pony society. I'm partial to smaller horses myself, but most registries don't accept them.

I know this studbook is getting a lot of flack for not accepting TB's at face value. But those of us keen on using TB mares and rave about this and that in the pedigree need to realize it means nothing unless they do something in sport. If you have a foal for sale out of a TB mare and both are in the CS studbook that says to anyone performance is somewhere in the pedigree through the dam. That speaks for itself when trying to buy a horse. In the long run I can see only benefits to people with TB mares and it means you'll want to get those horses out doing something. Even with TB racemares if you don't get the results from her progeny, you aren't going to sell for a profit. You might get lucky on the first couple of foals, but after that, they look elsewhere for the page that's current.

Here's a chance to disprove all the naysayers about TB mares in breeding and a chance to prove what they can do. So I can't understand all the backlash. I know when I started breeding my TB mare it wasn't so she would have pretty babies, I wanted a horse that could prove it's worth in the sporthorse world. And if they aren't, then I won't probably won't breed. Reason being I will have bred good riding horses already and won't need a new one every year. It all depends on what you want to accomplish in your breeding. Nothing wrong with good decent riding horses who are safe and do well, but as this is a performance studbook they're looking for the perfomance.

Terri

Terri

The Studbook systems should do a very good job of identifying TB mares retiring from sport and TB mares that have been in production for a while. If in the future we can offer an additional option for young TB broodmares which will maintain all of the benefits you described and maintain the domestic brand name development, it will be carefully studied.

[Oakstable]

Warmbloods grow so slowly that we don't know where they will end up until 6 or 7.

I had one that was on the small side and he finished at 16.2.

I have a small WB who is 15.1 plus but could go 15.3 before he is finished. I just don't know.

[Fairview Horse Center]

That is very true, but also a twin can be much smaller than its genes, as well as smaller first foals.

Some of the best horses in the world have been 15.2-3, and MANY of the highly influential older Hanoverian stallions were 15.3. I remember one year I looked at the GP Jumper HOY rankings, and at least 1/3 were 15.3 or under. That says even more when you consider how much people don't even bother to look at smaller horses when seeking a prospect.

[Ajierene]

How did your mare do at the competitions as you haven't stated?

She is almost always in the top 5. Her dressage scores are consistently in the low 30's and her only cross country issue is my own issue with the Trakehner jump. Her stadium jumping is also consistently clear. The last rail she took, the footing was wet and I asked for to little impulsion as I was a bit worried about the downhill turn to the jump. That was her only rail in years.

As far as 15.2 is concerned most registries are usually 15.3 hands. Here in Ireland 15.2 is considered a pony. Many 15.2's are registered with the IPS, the Irish Pony society. I'm partial to smaller horses myself, but most registries don't accept them.

In the US, a horse is a horse at 14.3HH, so if you cannot register your horse due to height, you cannot register it as a pony, either. The North American Sport Pony Registry states that a pony should be 13.2 to 14.2HH. It *can* fall outside the height range, but a 15.2HH horse being bred to another 15.2HH to 16HH horse is not going to make it.

I know this studbook is getting a lot of flack for not accepting TB's at face value. But those of us keen on using TB mares and rave about this and that in the pedigree need to realize it means nothing unless they do something in sport.

I'm not trying to bash the studbook, just gain some understanding. I can see how it can be difficult for a breeder to sell a horse that is not 'registered' somehow. I myself want to register my mare's offspring just to register it. Many people want to say their horse is X and here are the papers to prove it. I was just throwing out an idea to alleviate some worries people are having. Myself, if I cannot register the foal as anything, so be it, won't make her any less valuable. So while I can understand the mare needs to prove herself, I wanted to offer some alternatives as well to make it more 'breeder friendly'.

Here's a chance to disprove all the naysayers about TB mares in breeding and a chance to prove what they can do. So I can't understand all the backlash. I know when I started breeding my TB mare it wasn't so she would have pretty babies, I wanted a horse that could prove it's worth in the sporthorse world.

Of course, here you are looking at confirmation, 'pretty babies', compared to greats such as Windsome Adante and Aberjack that some people say have less than stellar confirmation. So will these eventing stallions not be allowed due to their confirmation? When you are looking at performance, and ability to pass on performance, confirmation is often less important.

Thanks, Continental Studbook, for the reply, as well. I was not thinking that provisional would be outside of the pass/fail line, but more similar to being put on a waiting list.

[Continental Studbook]

Winsome Adante is clearly a sport horse that any registry would be proud to have. The Continental Studbook understands that many great, of even just good, mares and stallions come in a variety of conformations, all of which would be considered "normal", but may not be "ideal" or "perfect". Horses do not have to be textbook or magazine cover "ideal" to enter the Studbook. No horse can be rejected for being normal.

Continental Studbook