Please share your opinion on these horses -Thanks [Archive]

D_BaldStockings

May. 1, 2009, 12:16 PM

I would very much appreciate opinions on these individual horses presented in the rough and not under saddle…as possible prospects/projects for performance dressage (meaning enough talent for upper levels).
It is difficult to get pics and vids of stock presented au natural, but I think there is a lot here to like.

Specifics on why you might agree or disagree are welcome.

I am thinking of the following quotes from elsewhere on this board (forgive me, I didn’t keep posters names with their excellent words.)

“I tell all people buying dressage horses: buy the canter and the brain.”

“If it's a nice horse but it never gets … where it will be seen…it won't be, no matter how talented it is.”
“I am seeing this from the American point of view, where the market is dramatically inefficient at getting the nicest horses to the best riders.”

“The cream rises to the top because the top is where all the money is, but you do have to have an "in"... you have to make it happen…”

1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj3UBVW3-g&feature=related

2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fflqTaNYJHA

3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9QxgXtUAjI

4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvpoHHRLWok&feature=related

5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rMrZvYxk-w&feature=related

6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6rI1tfEYNw&feature=related

7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCTo_uV6Rb0&feature=related

8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3W3mN3t3ag

9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YHPP68yGS8

10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHzQCtfRQlU&feature=related

Thank you for your candid response.

ToN Farm

May. 1, 2009, 12:48 PM

Just because one saddlebred happened to do ok at GP doesn't mean that breed is a good choice for an FEI prospect.

I watched a couple of your links, and couldn't bear to watch anymore. I don't agree with you that it is good to assess talent by watching a horse get chased around the ring at a tense trot.

horsechica58

May. 1, 2009, 01:03 PM

I have to agree that Saddlebreds probably aren't the best choice for an upper level dressage prospect. Not saying that they aren't out there..but not my first choice :)

slc2

May. 1, 2009, 01:05 PM

Have you gotten permission from the owners of these horses to post their videos for internet critiques? Quite a few people really don't like their horses posted for all to pick at, especially when the horses are for sale, but not limited to that situation. These horse videos are posted by a number of different people - did they have permission to post them on youtube from the owners, or are they the owners?

I love Saddlebreds. Just as I love all horse breeds. Every horse I've ever ridden has some good about them, and they all have something to learn from.

But to suggest that a breed as a whole- that ANY breed, even the purpose bred warmbloods, in any sort of sizeable percentage are automatically 'upper level candidates'...because of their breed, is absolute poppy cock.

I would very much appreciate opinions on these individual horses presented in the rough and not under saddle…as possible prospects/projects for performance dressage (meaning enough talent for upper levels).
It is difficult to get pics and vids of stock presented au natural, but I think there is a lot here to like.

I have to say it is an 'eclectic' bunch. There are two breeding stallions who aren't advertised for sale, some weanlings, several aged mares, and a gelding. So I don't think you are looking for a prospect for yourself or a client. If I had to guess, I would guess you are here to try to promote saddlebreds at the upper levels of dressage.

Specifics on why you might agree or disagree are welcome.

I am thinking of the following quotes from elsewhere on this board (forgive me, I didn’t keep posters names with their excellent words.)

“I tell all people buying dressage horses: buy the canter and the brain.”

The canter and the brain are a part of the equation. To succeed at the top levels, and hold up long enough for the horse to reach the top levels, it needs much, much more. The brain can't just be 'quick' or 'smart'. It needs to be tough. Energetic, a fighter who wants to succeed, an immense amount of energy, lack of distractibility, and resilience. The canter is important but so are the other gaits. Brain, gaits, but very important, conformation. Conformation is crucial with dressage horses, the more so as they go up the levels. And the back. A long, weak coupling in a horse, a long weak back, the horse will not make it. Hocks that naturally work out behind the body - will not make it. Gaits that get short and mincing easily...no. ALL the gaits have to be exceptional. Sure, for a little upper level showing at a local show with 1 other person in the class, a lot of very unsuitable horses are used. I would still go out of my way to select a more ideal candidate.

“If it's a nice horse but it never gets … where it will be seen…it won't be, no matter how talented it is.”

Well, the fact is, most really suitable, talented horses ARE 'seen' and they are found and people get them where they need to be. I DO occasionally hear gripes about this from small-time professionals who want to be given a horse that will make their career, but they need to earn that through show success, it isn't just handed to them - they generally get the horses they have earned through hard work and success.

Horses don't hide much these days. If it's sitting in a backyard 'unrecognized', there's usually a reason, usually, because it isn't really as good as the owner thinks it is, or because part of that 'whole package' just isn't there. There are lots of pretty moving horses that don't stay sound, don't have any brains, or are not trainable.

“I am seeing this from the American point of view, where the market is dramatically inefficient at getting the nicest horses to the best riders.”

I don't know that that really is true. It's a very small world in dressage, and people find out about horses...and quite frankly, I don't see that many 'stars' languishing unrecognized in people's back yards.

“The cream rises to the top because the top is where all the money is, but you do have to have an "in"... you have to make it happen…”

This is where I start going...'bullpuckey'. What you need in dressage is a good trainer and to ride well. Not an 'in'. If the horse really is so great and the training really is so good, the world will beat a path to your door. Too many people are convinced they have some fabulous undiscovered star in their barn. Generally, they don't.

Saddlebred horses were not originally bred for dressage. In fact, many of the conformation points and ways of moving and gaiting so desirable in the Saddlebred ring, are the exact and complete opposite of what is wanted in dressage, and the horse has been selected and bred over a very long time to excell in saddle seat type riding, not dressage.

Finding upper level candidates among American Saddlebreds is about selecting individuals. These are, in fact, individuals that are fairly atypical for the breed. They are not, as an entire breed, ideal candidates for upper level dressage.

I am not going to critique the individual videos presented here because I do not believe the owners have given their permission for this to be done.

For some general comments.

The saddlebred was designed to be the 'ultimate cadillac ride', with a back that is very comfortable for the rider (no swing) and yet a very high lifting of the neck and legs for style.

Many horses have a great deal of bend and lift to their hocks - they may in fact raise their knees and hocks very high, and look very very 'fancy' and 'stylish', but they do not have drive from the hind quarters. Instead, the croup is very flat and the hocks angulated and placed so that they 'work out behind' the horse. The long back and very long loin is very comfortable for a rider, but this makes it extremely difficult to get the horse's hindquarters and hocks positioned where they need to be for dressage.

As a result, they have no 'suspension' in their gaits at all. Despite lifting their knees and hocks, sometimes very dramatically, they have no lift or spring of the body, working through the back. The back does not naturally swing - instead it drops downward as the head and neck raise and the hind quarters work out behind the body.

With this so called 'inverted conformation', it is not always possible to 'turn over' these horses so they are stretching over the topline, swinging their backs and bringing their hocks forward, under their bodies.

While the 'swanny' neck is very beautiful it is not always possible to form the kind of 'connection' through the reins for dressage, where the impulsion can be developed and the energy transmitted through the neck and back to the hind quarter and forward again.

Some thoughts on selecting a saddlebred partner for upper level dressage could be, to select horses that naturally round their backs and put their hocks under, rather than behind them. A less extreme neck, and a shorter back and coupling can help a great deal with this. A long back and coupling leads to the inverted posture, and a lateral canter, and a lack of being able to transmit that power forward.

Too, I've had quite a few saddlebred folks tell me they very much dislike a walk that tracks up and actively do not select breeding stock that has that kind of walk. So with the walk, we'd be looking for a very unusual animal, especially if most breeders follow that same philosophy. A loose, long, swinging walk, a rounded topline, a back that lifts and swings, hocks naturally under the body, a less exaggeratedly swanny neck, a trot with some swing and lift, rather than 'kneesy-hocksy', and a very non lateral canter, are all great things to look for.

mjhco

May. 1, 2009, 01:11 PM

One needs to look at more than trot trot trot trot trot, slow motion trot trot trot.

MaryJo

Shrunk "N" Da Wash

May. 1, 2009, 01:21 PM

“I tell all people buying dressage horses: buy the canter and the brain.”

All these videos show saddlebreds. Which aren't known for their canter nor brain. I personally wouldn't touch one for dressage.

eggbutt

May. 1, 2009, 01:23 PM

I completely agree with SLC2....

Being the mother of a daughter who took her ASB to 4th level before it was even nearly fashionable to think about it, I have to agree that ASB's are not the first choice for success at upper level dressage. Their backs are too long for great collection, they are not naturally built uphill, and their neckset is normally too high to allow great use of their backs. That said, I've never seen an ASB that doesn't have the heart to do whatever is asked of it. Amazing animals, particularly if they trust you.

In my opinion if you are dead set on an ASB, you should look for one with a conformation as much like a warmblood as you can find - built a bit uphill, shorter back, lower set neck and shorter neck. Being honest, none of the horses I saw in your links would be suitable for dressage in my opinion. Sorry.

Couture TB

May. 1, 2009, 01:24 PM

I have nothing against ASB for dressage (trained and showed one to 3rd level but no one could even guess what his breed was http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm205/MattsonTraining/DividendDressage.jpg ), but there are very few that actually will make TRUE upper level horses. The last one listed, honestly I didn't think very much of him. Was not coming up underneath himself at the trot, very unsteady in the bridle, yes I do know it said that it was his first time in a full bridle, but honestly if your horse is ready to go in a full bridle then he should have ALL the basics done. Have correct rythem, steady contact, move off the leg and seat when asked etc.

For the prices of those ASBs listed you can get a horse that actually has dressage breeding to back up the price tag. I think the first horse was listed at around $13,000 correct? Go a little bit higher or if you don't mind young or a bit out of shape stay at the $15,000 and under range and you can find something that will have more potential to be really competative.

EqTrainer

May. 1, 2009, 01:26 PM

If you are serious about having an ASB in dressage you should contact ASB Stars on this board. She has two at this time that are undersaddle and *quite* nice. Dressaged only, never saddleseat.

mickeydoodle

May. 1, 2009, 01:38 PM

The first horse is such a beautiful color, love love love the two colored tail! That said all of them have their hocks far out behind them. That makes training for collection so much harder. There have been a few long backed, hocks out horses get to the upper levels, but if you watch the tests, they are not really collected, the hind ends do not sit.

A good brain counts for a lot, but if you really want to do FEI work, you have to have the body and gaits and the MECHANICS within the gaits be excellent.

webmistress32

May. 1, 2009, 01:43 PM

seems like you're picking them for their color. which is not a performance criteria.

FriesianX

May. 1, 2009, 02:37 PM

Well, I think you CAN find Saddlebreds that can do mid and even upper level dressage, but most of those you linked to are not what you are looking for, or there isn't ENOUGH to assess. The first link doesn't work, but the 2nd to the buckskin tobi - she is STUNNING to look at, like a Breyer horse, boy, adorable, flashy, but step back from that. Her walk is lateral even at liberty, and NO canter is shown even when being chased around, which indicates perhaps the canter is not an easy gait for her. She sure is fun to watch though:winkgrin:

I skipped all the slo-mo videos - saw a few seconds of tails flipped over backs, trailing hocks, and lousy footing - which never shows a horse right anyway. Some things to realize about slo-mo - ALL horses have suspension and air-time in slo-mo - you can't really tell what is going on. I don't mind video with mostly real time, but a bit of slo-mo - you can tell easily if the horse overtracks, if they trail their hocks, etc, but in reality, without seeing real time, you can't really assess the trot.

The chestnut filly trails her hocks quite a bit - in a baby, you have to give some lee-way, they could be in a funky growth stage, but she is so far out behind, that isn't going to change. She is probably an incredible candidate for some of the Saddlebred disciplines, such as pleasure classes - pretty, lots of action, uses herself athletically, just not really in a dressage way (dressage is not the only discipline in the world!).

The bay under saddle was probably one of the best of the lot for dressage - quick behind (a good thing), not trailing the hocks, although I'd like to see a more scopy canter (with more jump) at this point in training. The canter seemed to kind of roll back and forth, rather than jump and sit (coil and spring), if that makes any sense. I didn't watch the entire thing, didn't see walk work in the first part. I thought the rider was doing a nice job too, really nice to see that!

The palomino is probably going to be quite nice, but is doing WAY TOO MUCH for a 3 year old, ugh. Again, didn't watch the whole thing, didn't see the walk. Hope he stays sound and sane :confused:

I think, if you go to a Saddlebred breeder who is breeding for SPORT, you'll find some nice prospects. And, if you are looking for a lower level prospect, there are some flashy front ends in the group. Just realize, as you move up the levels, the canter becomes more and more important, and the ability to sit down and collect becomes more and more important. Ignore the front end in the big trot and re-assess those videos and see what you think ;)

D_BaldStockings

May. 1, 2009, 03:05 PM

Thank you all for the input so far.

I find your comments interesting and informative. Mods, if I have overstepped bounds by posting the youtube links, I certainly apologize, it is not my intent to encourage disparagement of any horse that may be for sale, and yet youtube is open to public viewing and comment, so I thought discussion for this specific discipline in raw horses might be possible. Lock, or otherwise let me know, thank you.

Saddlebred is my breed of choice, I certainly don't deny that. Others have their preferences, too.
I was hoping that posts would not be directed at Saddleseat, which is different from Saddlebred; time will tell. I also was hoping that the individuals would be considered so I could be informed as to what Dressage folks are looking for, more this, less that, heavier, lighter, etc. - I was hoping it was not just a set of papers from Europe. If it is, that will be good to know, too.
For those who have posted informatively, I appreciate it.

Regarding the color, as I said, au naturel vids are difficult to find in this breed, many receive extensive training even as very young horses to become Saddleseat prospects. Color breeders may opt away from that discipline and so their horses are presented more 'as they grew'. Saddlebreds come in just about every color, I guess I didn't post Sabino, Overo, Champagne, Silver Dapple or Roan, I'm not even sure there is a bay in the vids; in other words the color selection just wasn't intentional.

Obviously my 'eye' finds different priorities and I am often basing what I like off a few steps noted or an agile turn, etc. Again, these horses are not being presented in keurings or for the most part as prospects by their owners, but as raw goods.

As such, and as horses, I would ask again for your input and appreciate the opportunity to learn how and why from those 'in the trenches and actually doing'.
Thank you

rabicon

May. 1, 2009, 03:14 PM

Didn't really like any of them. The palo under saddle was probably the nicest but needs to be taken down a notch at the moment. The bay undersaddle was nice but I'm willing to bet the scores are not very competitve at the level he is at. I wonder if you are really looking to buy because some of these videos are over a year old :confused: I really am confused about this post. Posting when you were so I now understand you are trying to understand.

bort84

May. 1, 2009, 03:22 PM

Oh man, this is going to be a wreck...

D Baldstockings - I think I've seen you on the trot.org board? I'd recommend spending a bit more time browsing around here and then posting more, haha, just to get the feel... Things can get a little heated, as you can tell = )

I'm a saddle seat rider who's now doing mostly dressage with some jumping as well. I grew up with saddlebreds, and I adore them. This board has a few ASB enthusiasts, but most aren't and most also don't seem to be all that informed about the breed except for a few run ins here and there...

I'm not sure why people immediately had to knock the breed, especially since you didn't say "I'm looking for a GP dressage prospect, and I'd like a saddlebred because I think they're the best dressage horses out there..." Perhaps we can all try to be a bit more constructive = ) She clearly likes the breed (as do I) and would like some advice on how to get an ASB that is suitable for dressage. Rather than saying ALL ASBs have long backs and trailing hocks, how about advising her to avoid horses with long backs and trailing hocks. So much more pleasant and useful = )

I am very interested at taking some saddlebred dressage prospects to the upper levels at some point. However, it is often a bit difficult to find a good sport horse type. People don't market for that, so you really have to do some digging. Plus, too many people are breeding for extreme qualities these days at the cost of other good conformation points (like not worrying about long weak backs... NOT a breed trait we want!) So it can be challenging to find a great ASB dressage prospect unless you have some time and a good eye.

That being said, I think the breed has a lot of great points that would make it an excellent sport horse. We just need more breeders and buyers to get on the sport horse train. I don't think it would be hard at all to channel the breed into a sport horse type - the bloodlines are there. I think they can be great for crosses too. I've owned several less extreme type saddlebreds that excelled at saddle seat but that could also have been very competitive dressage horses (and not just at the lower levels...)

Anyway, this argument has been rehashed over and over again, and I'm waiting for some of the ASB breeders and enthusiasts to pop on here = )

Also, @ Slc - I've never talked to ASB breeders (good ones) that prefer a horse that doesn't track up. It may often seem that way because some breeders are doing the breed a disservice and breeding for extreme motion, head set, etc while forgetting about a good strong back (NO, we don't want them long for saddle seat..., and NO we don't want a walk that doesn't track up - it won't knock you out of the ribbons like it will in dressage, but it's HARDLY a desired trait...) Also, we do like our ASBs to be uphill. The breeding just isn't as regulated as it is for warmbloods, and I think it's a shame. I love ASBs, and I'm displeased with some of the saddle seat "types" of ASBs that are being produced these days. Responsible breeders should ALWAYS be looking for good conformation, grr.

Anyway, I think the ASB is a great option for dressage if you spend some time to look/carefully breed. Most of the horses you picked in your videos do lack suspension (not actually something I prefer in a saddle seat saddlebred either...) and are a little too quick and choppy in their gaits. The best way to get a nice dressage ASB is to find one that looks like a well built horse. Not too extreme in anyway. A nicely set on neck that's not overly thin or long. A nice back and shoulder (I've also heard people on here say that ASBs are bred for straight shoulders, absolutely NOT a breed standard - they should be sloping...) and a nice temperment (despite what many think, MOST saddlebreds look hot, but have great minds).

I'd suggest looking at a LOT of upper level dressage videos and going to some dressage shows to see what's out there. Coming over from ASB saddle seat land is a bit of a transition at first. You really have to retrain your eye = ) What you see doing "dressage" and "hunter pleasure" at breed shows is nothing like what a real dressage horse or hunter should usually look like.

bort84

May. 1, 2009, 03:24 PM

My last post was a bit rambling, but I wanted to add - to look at some great dressage videos go to topdressage.tv. It's got a lot of top international horses. When I first transitioned into dressage, it really did take awhile to separate my saddle seat eye from my dressage eye.

Also, I still love saddle seat though I'm currently doing more dressage (and I love it so much for different reasons), so I have my feet in both worlds = )

ASBnTX

May. 1, 2009, 03:34 PM

Wow that buckskin is *FLASHY*! As I'm quite new to the sport, I have no comment here on the suitability of these horses for Dressage, but just wanted to say that I hope there are some ASB sporthorse breeders who will join the discussion. My Saddlebred (who's been discussed on the ORS thread) is wonderful!! I don't think he's "perfect" for Dressage, or that we'll ever make UL, but I'm going to have a lot of fun with him just enjoying the process :) Just have to get him un-cowboyed now... and I think he will be a lovely Dressage horse. That said, he does not look or move like the Saddlebreds that I've seen in the show ring. Those horses are extreme. I think this is an interesting topic, and I hope it doesn't turn into a wreck.

merrygoround

May. 1, 2009, 03:39 PM

from a possible dressage point of view,the only one that had perhaps a glimmer of hope was the grey stallion, and then his feet were questionable, as I couldn't really see them because of the quality of the filming.

The buckskin mare was striking as an ASB.

chipkalee

May. 1, 2009, 04:05 PM

Saddlebreds are wonderful mounts. And imo make great dressage horses. Albert Ostermeyer loved them and trained at least one to Grand Prix. He felt they were unfairly over looked as far as dressage goes. And what beautiful piaffes one can get!
Also the OP did not post the videos. The OP posted the links to the videos which is perfectly net legal. Besides, there's plenty of critiques on the YouTube videos from viewers anyway.

exvet

May. 1, 2009, 04:14 PM

I will not comment on the horses shown simply because I think there are a couple who might be possibilities but there isn't enough to see in these clips (especially canter sequences) that make me feel comfortable suggesting or negating specific critters. Though I agree as others have said that those who move completely with their hocks out behind and are never seen stretching down are likely not your best candidates.

That said I am one of those who loves a specific breed first and dressage is a close, close second. When you fall in "that" category you definitely have to develop thick skin and be able to read for content all the while being able to filter out some of the stingers and zingers some on here and elsewhere like to lob just 'cause you ain't ridin' what they think is fittin'.

Take the advice others have given, which just by your post is evidence that you're trying to do exactly that, and focus on finding ASBs who are more sport horse in type. I too have a breed who is bred to trot all day long with flash and fire. I had to look (and kissed many a toad) long and hard focusing on those individuals who first WOULD canter and then narrowing it down to those who obviously like to canter and finally trying to find the occasional one who demonstrated an excellent canter with the carrying power being more prominent than the pushing power ;)

I really didn't/don't worry about the trot per se. Breeds who are bred to trot are likely going to have a good one there and as many say, the trot is the easiest gait to improve (or at least the one that you will have the most positive influence over). So again, given some of the similarities between our breeds, I look for scope and elasticity of the trot more so than flash - ie, use of shoulder, hind foot placement, bend of hock UNDERNEATH THE HORSE, and use of back - if you've got a critter, regardless of breed who demonstrates a range (the greater the better) then you know the trot, medium trot and extended will be there with proper training.

Now the other key, the walk, look for a good over stride that doesn't show any and I really mean this with the "trotting" breeds (and by that I mean any who can do a hell of a CEP or park horse class), any pacing, lateral tendencies or tension. It's that part that is tougher than the rest 'cause sometimes these tendencies don't show themselves until their under saddle but if it's there at liberty it's a battle you will have. Not saying all hope is lost but your challenges will be greater.

It is possible to find a suitable candidate in your breed of choice. And one of the most important things as someone here has mentioned, is that heart and devotion factor. I have been able to go much farther than many thought due in large part because my horse has that huge heart and devotion factor. We'll never be on the olympic squad but I have accomplished far more than some of my contemporaries who acquired horses around the same time after a trip to Europe ;)

Good luck and please realize that some of us don't all see dressage through warmblood colored glasses.

TKR

May. 1, 2009, 04:18 PM

I've always liked Saddlebreds, but I'm a Thoroughbred person at heart, too. That said, I've seen some SB's doing dressage and they have struggled. I think if you have your heart set on one, you might want to look for one that is not the "type" the saddleseat people want and is more in line with what a sporthorse for the Olympic disciplines should reflect. Even though the many wb registries all have their differences, the primary thing they all reflect is the conformation and mechanics to jump or do dressage. It's not fair to the horse to ask it to perform in a way that isn't comfortable or they are not suited to do. If you would take the time to learn about appropriate conformation it might help you make a good choice. Maybe you could look at a 1/2 SB or look at individual horses that might suit you instead of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. For lower levels, it probably wouldn't matter so much, but to go up the levels, you will need strength and structure that is amenable to the work. Good luck!
PennyG

equusaround

May. 1, 2009, 04:23 PM

I watched most of all the videos. It was mostly painful. Not ONE of those horses tracked up in the trot. A good FEI dressage prospect should not only track up in the trot but also have OVERSTEP. None of the horses showed any indication that they could STEP UNDER with their hind end. Most of them were croup high which is really hard to overcome in dressage. None of the horses exhibited a loose and springy back. There was lots of hock action (all out behind) with tails up over the back and some knee action, but no horses recycling the energy from their hind end over their back to the front, etc.

Didn't see lot of natural suspension (without the stiff back/tail up) which is what generally wins in lower level national dressage classes.

Could some of those horses do dressage - sure all of them. Would I recommend that you buy any of them to be COMPETITIVE in FEI (or even lowere levels) "NO"!

Sorry.

I've ridden ASB (Peavine bloodlines) and they are nice horses for hacking, a little jumping, some flat, but they do not have the conformation generally to be competitive upper level dressage horses.

D_BaldStockings

May. 1, 2009, 05:37 PM

Thanks all for assisting, I do appreciate it.

In actuality I did not come from a Saddleseat background, my early days long, long ago (think the Beatles) were hunt/forward seat training and I never considered a SB until I happened to be exposed to them in college -yes, hunt seat program, Saddlebred horses. Unusual, but it happened.

The temperaments completely sold me.

I am by no means an expert at Saddleseat, or huntseat for that matter, but I have studied SB horses and watched as the warmbloods morphed over the decades. Lately I have seen many warmbloods that frankly, look like they would make Saddleseat prospects winning at the young horse level and topping the sales in Europe.

I am truly wondering how much of WB dominance in the sport is expectation, presentation and training and how much is better basic material.

Thanks again, and thanks for links to what is considered quality.

equusaround

May. 1, 2009, 07:22 PM

Having been in the horse business for the past 46 years (gee, and I'm still 27...), I've got to say I've basically ridden them all. Started with a shetland pony, then a welsh, then a foundation bred AQHA, then a TB, then a racing AQHA (almost 100% TB - looked a lot like a warmblood or Irish TB) then a TWH, a couple Arabians, ASB, more AQHA, more TB's and finally a nice Westphalian mare. I won LOTS of stuff on the way up. I pony clubbed and came in 2nd at the National Rally (B level), showed 3-day through Intermediate; jumped in Grand Prix's, qualified for the medal classes, showed open hunters, equitation, steeplechased, foxhunted, hunter paced, whipped, rode in the USET team trials for DeNemethy and played around with western trail and stock classes; now I have switched to being a dressage queen but my stallion is now eventing Preliminary with Jolie Sexson (who just came in 18th at Rolex on her SF/Irish cross). So basically with this background I pretty much know when I'm riding a good horse.

Anyway, I bred the Westphalian mare 2x and her offspring have been my dressage horses for the past 10 years (and one is my stallion). It is REALLY a lot easier to train and show a well bred warmblood in dressage or jumping. Of course, there are run of the mill warmbloods and crummy warmbloods and they are as non-talented as a bad AQHA or TB, but a good warmblood with a great personality beats the others hands down (except there have been occasional great TB's in dressage - eg., Keen, and lots of great TB jumpers and eventers but usually, a great warmblood is better than the great TB for dressage or jumping and they seem to last longer especially if they haven't been raced early on.

People come up to me when I ride my stallion and ask how I trained him to move that way...and I tell them he was trained by his father - its all inherited; when you can get 8's and 9's on your gait scores, winning at dressage is soooo much easier and then when they can jump 5' with ease,

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff171/teamgauguin/DSC_2660.jpg

fences look so much smaller. For example, the first time I rode my stallion, he was almost 3 y.o. and I was able to put his nose to the ground at the canter and he was still cantering "up" and not on his forehand. That is just a sign of a really well balanced horse.
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff171/teamgauguin/IMG_0870.jpg

And when he's got international champions (both dressage and jumping) on both sides of his pedigree going back 7+ generations, the fact that he passes on his extreme athleticism to his foals should be expected. Since other breeds of horses haven't been specifically bred for the Olympic sports for many generations, you might get a good or exceptional individual from time to time, but since that is not what their breeders were actually (usually) breeding for, it is a kind of crap shoot. But...my horse isn't 5 gaited and can't rack and he has basically no cow sense, so he'd be a lousy cow pony and he wouldn't do well in saddle seat classes.

An ASB in 8 or 10 generations of selective breeding might turn out a pretty consistently good dressage horse or jumper, but why not enjoy them for what they are (and were bred for) and if you want to do the Olympic sports, get a warmblood.

ToN Farm

May. 1, 2009, 07:28 PM

EQUUS.....AWESOME HORSE AND RIDER!!! Beautiful equitation. Wow, I'm impressed.

slc2

May. 1, 2009, 07:32 PM

Equusaround, those are great pictures! Really nice!

But...just so you know...if you come here and say warmbloods are good, you'll have some folks tailin' ya and peckin' at ya, LOL. Lots a people don't like that.

Some day I'll post pictures of my Andalusian-Thoroughbred-Draft-Shetland cross.....

bludejavu

May. 1, 2009, 07:33 PM

Since some of us ASB folks (speaking for myself here) are in the learning stages of what a good presentation video is for a young dressage prospect, tell me if this is a good representation of a sales video, and secondly, tell me if I am correct in my thinking that this prospect is definitely a GOOD prospect as opposed to a run-of-the-mill dressage prospect. I have always had an interest in breeding for sporthorse type within the Saddlebred breed and the video I am linking to is, in my mind, a great sales video of a GOOD prospect. Again - I'm still learning so tell me if I'm wrong. Thanks in advance to all replies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR4J109YJF8

AnotherRound

May. 1, 2009, 07:37 PM

Well, no expert here, but myfirst impression on all of them was that they didn't have the conformation to excel I too saw the hocks and the high head and neck set as an impediment to moving up and using their back. It wasn't happening for any of the prospects in the vids, and I for one would be frustrated taking the time to work on them. Yes, they would do the work, but not the way I would want them to...

equusaround

May. 1, 2009, 07:44 PM

ToN Farm: Thanks for the compliment. I'll take full credit for the horse, that's my stallion, Gauguin du Cheval 9054. I bred him, birthed him, raised him, trained him and showed him to 3 USDF HOY Champion awards until Jolie started jumping him in November, 2007. Although when I was 27 I looked like her on a horse too (but now I don't) he is currently being ridden by Jolie Sexson, who I mentioned just came in 18th at Rolex with a clean x-country but 12.8 time faults and 2 rails on stadium on Connor. She was 11th in dressage, so a very good showing!

This is me on him:

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff171/teamgauguin/Gauguin_Champion.jpg

(Jolie jumping him 12/07 but me on him at DAD 9/02). Pardon the poster but that is the only place I have those photos small enough to post -they each take a whole CD they are so huge.

And on the whole breeding thing - I've got 2 two year old stud colts by him that are maybe even nicer than he is
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff171/teamgauguin/IMG_1427.jpg
and his 5 y.o. daughter easily jumps 5' like him and has those nice gaits as well. And I don't think any ASB is going to touch them on the conformation and athleticism even in 10 generations. Plus they have great personalities!
Eleven month old stud colt decorated for the 4th of July parade:

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff171/teamgauguin/CopyofYankeeDoodleDandy.jpg
(No one stays a colt around me if they aren't SWEET! - and I remind them all of that daily, snip, snip <evil grin>.

ASB Stars

May. 1, 2009, 07:49 PM

As you might imagine, I am just dying here...

So many misconceptions- and all quite valid, given what is out there for you to see, and is in many of these videos.

First off, I started out with ASB show horses, because my Mother wanted to do that, and me- I just loved them, and I wanted a horse. Along the way, over the past 38 years that I have owned horses, I have ridden, trained, and shown one of just about everything in dressage. From a Lipp stud (Pluto Majestico) to a half sister to Gifted, who then went on to produce a couple of approved stallions, to everything else with a brand on it's fanny, to Arabs (Polish, Egyptian, and crosses)a bunch of TBs, Quarterhorses....you get the idea.

When I got out of the business, I thought seriously about what I loved from all that time- and I decided it was dressage, and American Saddlebreds. Together. Yes, I could have gotten anything- just like all of you. But I BELIEVE that these ASBs are not just as good- they can be better, than anything else out there. When I hear someone say that they do not have suspension, I want to scream. I don't have a horse on this farm who does not move with expression and suspension. Yes, I start out with the right stuff, or, I work to develop it, and these horses ALL learn to work over their backs, even if it does not come naturally to them. Many horses find that challenging, but with ASBs, I can explain it to them, and they say "OK, I've got it- you want me to do THIS."

Some of the horses in the videos had more potential than others- no question. And, they certainly had not been asked to do what is necessary for a correct dressage horse to do- they had been started (in most cases) in a manner that is the complete antithesis of correct dressage- and they were showing off what they had been asked to do. One of the amazing aspects of these horses is that they will try to give you what you want- 110%- 100% of the time.

You folks are being asked to make a leap- without adequate evidence supporting a claim that these horses are what we believe them to be- I get that. All I can offer is that you stop by here some time. I won't ask you to believe- I'll defy you NOT to.

equusaround

May. 1, 2009, 08:00 PM

Susan N:

I don't like the horse's rear-end - not a forward enough sloping femur and too straight. The hocks are out behind too and the back is stiff. The horse also doesn't seem to have any desire to "sit" naturally. So I wouldn't chose as a stallion prospect for dressage based on this video.

equusaround

May. 1, 2009, 08:08 PM

SLC2 wrote:

Equusaround, those are great pictures! Really nice!

But...just so you know...if you come here and say warmbloods are good, you'll have some folks tailin' ya and peckin' at ya, LOL. Lots a people don't like that.

Some day I'll post pictures of my Andalusian-Thoroughbred-Draft-Shetland cross.....

Were you trying to duplicate Theodore O'Conner? Love the hybrid vigor!

My breeding lines all have a healthy dose of TB in them but I'm pretty picky with my TB mares - love Nearco and the old distance horses all over the place because they were such great atheletes (although can be HOT)! And at the Jan Brink FEI trainer's clinic last year, a woman was doing a very credible GP on a Shire cross. No gaits, but the horse had an awesome mind and was trainable. She was never going to score in the 70's on this horse - but such a nice trained animal and so willing!

So, I think there is a place for all horses (love them all) but if you want to seriously compete in the Olympic sports, its tough to beat a nice warmblood and most well-bred warmbloods can do the work. And you can generally (with good aforethought) realiabily breed athletes from proven warmblood lines.

Carol Ames

May. 1, 2009, 08:36 PM

Let's look at this from the judges' point of view, ok? first, we have "gaits , balance and movement";

Were three pure gaits shown?, not really; the walk which, carries , in the test a coefficient x2 was not a regular 4 beat gait; the trot disjointed , and unbalanced , as the transitions before the turn showed; it is difficult for a horse who is bred to have a stiff, tight back to lower the hindquarters and elevate the forehand as looked for/ required in dressage; I have no doubt that they are very intelligent :winkgrin:, sweet horses, and a lot of fun to ride but, trying to "do " dressage, would be an "uphill" battle; though dressage training will certainly help any horse, and enhance your relationship; I would not recommend any of these horse as upper level dressage prospects.:sadsmile::no: sorry.

Chall

May. 1, 2009, 08:54 PM

I discount 9 and 10 because their training is already done, so its not the same. I liked 4 the best.I have no background in dressage, just liked her movement the best.

SmartAlex

May. 4, 2009, 01:03 PM

I think I know what Mary (OP) is trying to do. I am also a Saddlebred lover, born and bred. I enjoy other disciplines, and like to learn about them and hope that our breed can have a future being better appreciated by America and used in other areas where they can excel.

Being a Saddlebred lover, I LIKE the way the breed moves (in general and not just the modern successful extreme types), and when I see a dressage test, I naturally compare what I see to my favored breed and think "yeah, my breed could do that" and I may miss the nuances of movement and conformation that a dressage expert sees. I love to see both the Saddlebred and Dressage tests through a different perspective like we are doing here. That helps educate us ASB peeps as to which Saddlebreds might have a future in other disciplines and most importantly WHY.

The OP isn't necessarily trying to promote the ASB as a FEI dressage breed, but we are trying to open the discussion and figure out what you all want. We might have it sitting around somewhere, or worse, it might be on a plate in Europe right now.

Equibrit

May. 4, 2009, 02:24 PM

D_BaldStockings

May. 4, 2009, 02:25 PM

SmartAlex

May. 4, 2009, 02:51 PM

esdressage

May. 4, 2009, 03:07 PM

Saddlebreds are wonderful, but not at dressage.
There is a reason that different types of horses have been developed for different pursuits.
You probably could develop a saddlebred for dressage. It would take a long time and lots of money and you would end up with a horse that looked like a warmblood, but you could call him a saddlebred.

WHY BOTHER ?

I'm glad that you started out by saying that Saddlebreds are wonderful, but I'm surprised at the WHY BOTHER?

I thought the sentiment in general about dressage is that it benefits any horse. If somebody is enamored with a certain breed and wants to know which of those Saddlebreds would be best for a discipline she enjoys, why not just give advice based on that? Certainly the original post didn't ask which would be an FEI prospect. She's just wondering which would be most suitable for dressage.

I'm not a Saddlebred owner or rider myself, and I do recognize their general limitations, but I would never say why bother. For the VAST majority of riders, Dressage is a journey, and the "X" at the end of the map is not FEI. Theirs is not a path to the GP arena, and they don't care. We all strive to do our best, but that doesn't mean we have unrealistic expectations of ourselves or our horses. The journey is the enjoyable part, the horses benefit, the rider benefits, and everybody has fun (most of the time!). If they happen to make it to a high level, GREAT, but that isn't the reason they're doing it.

I do think it's helpful that some people have pointed out the things to watch for in usual Saddlebred conformation that would be a challenge in dressage, so that the OP can know what to avoid.

Back to the point. Why bother? Because she'd be having a great time with a horse she loves.

D_BaldStockings

May. 4, 2009, 03:34 PM

I actually would prefer to develop a Saddlebred THROUGH Dressage training, which of course includes presenting them in front of judges, and being judged on modern interpretations of correct gaits, rather than FOR Dressage via the breeding route primarily.

I am old, and am still under the impression that Dressage should also gymnasticize the horse for a long life of soundness and service, and that the rider should develop the ability to ride the gymnasticized horse. In my day it was considered valuable for any horse to have dressage training so long as initiative was preserved and the ability to extend was not sacrificed along the way. Is this still true?

While weaknesses of conformation will limit a horse, it is also true that rider failure is a more common reason that reasonably conformed horses fail to progress up the levels.

I get the impression that straightness, generosity and submission, even rhythm, in fact all the developed attributes of a Dressage horse as displayed in a test are now in second position to types of gait? I do not see the back movement in Andalusians or Lippizanners, are they now not suitable upper level Dressage horses after 400 years?

Of course people can change a breed within it's (closed) studbook -the Freisian is a perfect example and it didn't take 7 generations.

Equibrit

May. 4, 2009, 04:04 PM

You could of course go buy a warmblood and call him a saddlebred.

Equibrit

May. 4, 2009, 04:09 PM

I do not see the back movement in Andalusians or Lippizanners, are they now not suitable upper level Dressage horses after 400 years?

It's more a case of the requirements of "competition" dressage changing.
They are still suited for the original practice of dressage.

Jealoushe

May. 4, 2009, 04:26 PM

10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHzQCtfRQlU&feature=related

Thank you for your candid response.

This horse is a fine example of "faking it". He is going around in a frame but he isn't even remotely close to tracking up. His first day in the double bridle? He needs a lot more work before being ridden in that. I would not say that horse was doing any of those movements properly.

equusaround

May. 4, 2009, 04:36 PM

Nearco, wonderful TB and proven racehorse and sire that he was, was not a dressage horse.

While I do not dispute your 7 generations of international performance, you have certainly not restricted it to dressage, or even Olympic Sport.

So while I can appreciate that your horse jumps well, is successful in your chosen sport and suits you to a T, he would appear to be an amalgam of movement and conformation types which are still being selected or routed to various disciplines where they excel. Even producing dressage horses from jumper lines?

I am not trying to be offensive or disparage your horse, merely pointing out that training in a different athletic endeavor does not preclude horses of those bloodlines being able to be trained in other disciplines -as you and many others have proven.

...and why I am here asking questions. Most SB have more than 7 generations of riding performance discipline behind them as well. Also in non-dressage disciplines.

Saddlebreds have proven themselves in the Sport disciplines in the past; but times do change, expecially in Competitive Dressage, so here I am asking.
___________________________________________

I disagree that my bloodlines aren't restricted to "olympic sport" other than the TB infusion which was mostly bred for racing.

I breed in an "open" book registry. That means that I can breed horses other than only SWB's and still have a registered SWB. Mostly it means that I can incorporate TB blood into my lines which with the great TB mare base in the USA is a valuable tool.

SWB's have been a registry of performance riding horses since the 13th century (before USA or the invention of a TB racehorse....). Traditionally they were the cavalry mounts of officers and were highly prized all over Europe. A cavalry officer's very life depended upon the rideability and athletic ability of his horse. His horse needed to be able to do dressage, run and jump - in other words, be an all around athlete all the while exhibiting a good attitude and personality.

The SWB registry is special because their breeding standards are actually scientifically based through the BLUP index which reliably can predict the outcome of a breeding, giving the mare owner a certain degree of "certainty" that when s/he breeds his/her mare to "x" stallion s/he will most likely get a horse with "y" characteristics.

See: http://www.blup.se/en-US/pages/short_intro

As to Nearco: Nearco was a fantastically athletic sire. Yes, he was bred for distance racing, but had great conformation and reliably passes his athleticism down through his progeny. His offspring inherit athleticism - all sport horses need that whether they are trained for dressage, H/J or 3-day. His ahtleticism is why I like Nearco in my TB mare lines.

My stallion is doubled up on Ramzes, an Anglo Arab but really an Anglo-Shagya Arab (both in his sire and dam lines) - Ramzes is probably the most important sire of modern sporthorses in the world - both jumpers and dressage horses. He can be found in the pedigree of most Olympic medalists in the 20th century. Again, a horse with amazing athleticism who reliably passed it on to his progeny.

And to breed dressage horses, one doesn't necessarily stick to "dressage lines". A lot of breeders have concluded that infusion of "jumper" lines into dressage lines gives a superior horse for dressage or the possiblity that it will be a good moving horse with a lot of jump! Take for example, Sandro Hit - bred to be a jumper (w/Nearco in his 6th generation) but turns out to have fabulous gaits and generally stamps his offsrping with a modern look and nice gaits. My Sandro Hit filly (out of Orinda (Wanroij x Poppy - Chrysos - dressage bred) turns out to really like to jump and be really good at it. Jupmers tend to have REALLY good canters and walk and canter are "bred" into a horse while generally a trot can be developed. So to improve the canter, you often go back for some "jumper" blood.

So while ASBs are very nice horses, they haven't been bred for the Olympic sports and other horses have been for hundreds of generations, so why try to reinvent the wheel - just enjoy what you have and appreciate them for what they do. And of course, dressage training will be helpful for ANY horses, but training a horse for dressage is WAY easier when they already have the conformation and movement to make it easy for the horse to participate.

class

May. 4, 2009, 04:50 PM

i can understand people who love saddlebreds above all other breeds and want to do dressage with them. that's cool, knock yourselves out. you should be able to do dressage and train your horse, no matter what kind he is.

then, there are people who love dressage above all other sports. these would probably be the people who are the serious competitors, and you have mentioned not just "dressage" but "competitive dressage." competitive dressage is not just about harmony and happiness. it is about what the dressage judges are looking for and part of that is having a horse that is, well, "competitive."

maybe if i bred enough shetland ponies, and kept selecting for longer legs and better bascule, i could eventually create some awesome shetland ponies that were 6' jumpers. or, if i was smart, i could start with some horses that are known to have jumping ability and save a lot of time, energy, and money, and not end up creating 99 unwanted horses to get to the 1 special one that is what i am shooting for.

quietann

May. 4, 2009, 06:05 PM

I didn't pick up a lot from the videos, beyond that these horses are not "typical" competitive (upper-level) dressage horses. But as others have said -- for most of us, the upper levels are not where we'll end up, and any horse can benefit from dressage training.

I suspect that ASBs on average would have some of the same issues as Morgans do; the two breeds do trace back to a lot of the same horses, and have been bred for similar characteristics for the most part. Necks that come straight up out of the shoulders, level/short croups, low backs might all be issues. That said, both breeds have a lot of "sparkle" and interesting personalities, and good reputations for soundness. As long as size remains important, the ASB has an advantage over the Morgan, too.

I think there are people breeding ASBs for sport -- and there are ASBs with a very TB-ish, "blooded" look about them. Same thing in the Morgan world, where "sport Morgans" are purpose-bred; mine is sometimes taken for a TB cross or even a small, pure TB! The "sport-breds" typically have more reach and less elevation in their gaits, and a more sloping croup.

SmartAlex

May. 4, 2009, 07:09 PM

OK.... I just got a chance at home to look at the videos.
I am a Saddlebred LOVER, and the only two that made me look twice, were the grey filly, because I like grey, but I got over her. And the lovely palomino stallion, because he looks like he is training nicely. I can see somethings I don't like about him, but he is young.

The Saddlebred breed has a lot more than those examples to offer.

And, for the person who responded initially that the Saddlebreds aren't known for their minds... My step father is a horse-novice. His ex-wife had appaloosas for many years, and he learned to handle them. He is rather intimidated by our family's Saddlebreds. His reason? "I feel uncomfortable around a horse that is smarter than I am."

ASB Stars

May. 4, 2009, 07:12 PM

___________________________________________

So while ASBs are very nice horses, they haven't been bred for the Olympic sports and other horses have been for hundreds of generations, so why try to reinvent the wheel - just enjoy what you have and appreciate them for what they do. And of course, dressage training will be helpful for ANY horses, but training a horse for dressage is WAY easier when they already have the conformation and movement to make it easy for the horse to participate.

Could you please share the breeds or registries that have been bred for "hundreds of generations". I am sure you are quite serious, and I am looking forward to getting a better understanding of where you are coming from wth your statement.

ASB Stars

May. 4, 2009, 07:14 PM

This horse is a fine example of "faking it". He is going around in a frame but he isn't even remotely close to tracking up. His first day in the double bridle? He needs a lot more work before being ridden in that. I would not say that horse was doing any of those movements properly.

You might want to contact Chrissa Hoffman directly. I am sure she will be able to explain the type of work she does with the horses in her program, and her record speaks for itself.

FriesianX

May. 4, 2009, 07:34 PM

Could you please share the breeds or registries that have been bred for "hundreds of generations". I am sure you are quite serious, and I am looking forward to getting a better understanding of where you are coming from wth your statement.

ASB, you beat me on this question! Georgia, if you go back just 8 or 10 generations, you will find the "Warmblood" stock looks pretty much like draft horses, only worse! Go to All Breeds Pedigree Reports and look at the pictures of some of the WB sires (and dams) from 100 years ago - be prepared to look twice! None of them look like today's GP competitor! Many look like they'd be quite happy pulling a plow.

I don't think anyone doubts, if you are headed for the Olympics (that is what, maybe NONE of us on this forum?), you will probably look for a Warmblood (probably, not definately). One of the top, elite WBs that are quite rare, and quite awesome. For just about anyone else, you will look for a horse with a good brain and three good gaits. That includes some Warmbloods. Some other breeds, including the right kind of Saddlebred!

Some WB breeders mention the Anglo Arab in a WB horse's bloodlines. Have you ever seen an Anglo Arab in the Olympics? Would you seek such a breed as an Olympic Competitor? I doubt it. Along the same lines, there are many serious dressage competitors that are starting to look at something outside of the "traditional" Warmblood. Baroque horses, American breeds (Saddlebreds, Morgans, etc) are all gaining popularity in the dressage ring. Why? Because MOST of us don't aim for the Olympics, we want to enjoy our horses, and still be competitive. For some, that means buying a "less than Olympic calibre" Warmblood. For some, that means finding a Saddlebred with three good gaits and a mind to enjoy. For some, it means finding something else. The point is - very few Warmbloods are Olympic calibre. AND we can often find other breeds with BETTER potential than a mediocre quality Warmblood for the same price. And, for many, the brain of a Warmblood may not be an easy ride.

By the way, I am a serious competitor, with a international quality stallion. Who is 1/2 Friesian:eek: And pinto :eek: And I wouldn't trade him for a traditional Warmblood;)

I don't know why Warmblood fans always have to turn these threads into "Buy a WB if you are serious" thread? There are many quality non-WBs doing well in dressage. And some pretty darn serious trainers and competitors who are starting to turn to these non-WB horses for themselves and their clients. I enjoy watching a nice WB as much as the next dressage fan - I"ve got a few nice ones in my pastures - but in all reality, I don't think they are the only horses that can do FEI dressage.

The OP asked about some specific horses - most of them really aren't serious UPPER LEVEL prospects, but that doesn't mean you can't find an ASB that is a serious prospect. And it doesn't mean you can't find plenty of mid-level prospects. The OP is interested in Saddlebreds, NOT in Warmbloods, so why turn the thread to WBs? :confused:

Sure, you need to find one with the gaits and build and mind for dressage - but I'd make the VERY SAME comment about a WB. And believe me, I've seen plenty that don't make the cut.

esdressage

May. 4, 2009, 07:44 PM

You might want to contact Chrissa Hoffman directly. I am sure she will be able to explain the type of work she does with the horses in her program, and her record speaks for itself.

In line with the comment above, I can see this taking a downward spiral. I don't think anybody should make specific comments about any of the horses in the videos. Or if you would like to, perhaps do it in a PM to the OP. These are sale horses, some ridden by professionals in the videos, and not the poster's.

ASB Stars

May. 4, 2009, 07:57 PM

Years ago, when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, I had a TB who I purchased as a resale project, who ended up staying on, as he informed me that he was NOT leaving. I was told by a number of professionals, several of whom are now judges, that this horse was never going to be an upper level horse- in fact, he wasn't going to be a contender at the lower levels either. He had contact issues, as he had worn a twisted wire snaffle for awhile during his career as a Jr. Hunter/MM horse.

He won for me through first- we got lengthenings I never thought we'd have, and then, as his trot was really only good for a six, on a great day, we stayed home, and he learned all of the movements, through GP. His canter work was always amazing, and pirouettes and counter changes were his highlights.

I defy anyone to determine that a horse cannot be trained through the FEI levels, just by watching a video of them working free. Will they be competitive? Hell, I don't know. But I have seen horses showing GP who had so-so gaits, but they would do ALL of the movements. Brilliantly? Uh, no. But that wasn't the question, was it?

Being successful through the levels requires some basic athletic talent on the part of the horse, and the rider, a fabulous attitude on the part of the horse, and the rider, and some luck. If any of you are under the impression that something else is going on, your crystal ball is in much better shape than mine.

D_BaldStockings

May. 4, 2009, 08:36 PM

I suppose that by extrapolating that the original Olympic equestrian disciplines were based on the cavalry at that time, especially the Cadre Noir, and that cavalry has been an arm of warfare for at least 1000 years, your 100 generations is plausible.

On the other hand, breeding records and theories for horses other than racing just were not kept or much thought about before the 1700s. Armored warfare before then required Destriers, a completely different heavy type than might be useful today.

If a horse was of suitable type it was used for the purpose. 'Army horses' before the advent of mechanized warfare (Pre WWI) were multi purpose in Europe where broad plains encouraged huge infantry face-offs as the major offensive. Horses pulled cannon, supplies, and were still considered valuable for their sheer mass in mowing down infantry. Most modern European Sport breeds in that time were dual purpose ride and pull heavy harness types with the mare base in the hands of the local populace for farm work producing cavalry horses as a cash crop.

The Olympics were restarted early in the 1900's and were not open to the public until, I think, post WWII. Only cavalry teams competed before then. SWANA was formed in 1928. The Saddlebred registry for reference was started some 30 years earlier, and yes, their ancestry goes back to the riding types imported from Europe throughout the earlier centuries, sometimes recorded, most often not; pioneer times had different priorities.

Given that the only horses the US cavalry was likely to have in the first quarter of the 20th century were generally known as 'remount' stock inexpensively bred in the west/midwest with the only pedigree note in many cases being by such-and-such stallion (mostly TB, though Morgans, Standardbreds, Saddlebreds and Hungarian horses were also used) and that the huge land mass of the US was allocated one cavalry team vs. the multiple European teams fielded, and that the ancient riding school tradition of Europe did not exist in the US, we did surprisingly well.

I apologise, this has little to do with the matter at hand, which for me is finding out about modern Competitive Dressage. I won't be showing in Europe. If a Saddlebred has placed in the middle of the pack in an upper level test including mostly Warmbloods, I think it is fair to say there is room at the top. As this horse is by the #1 Saddlebred Sire where the rating system is strictly non-dressage and restricted to Saddlebreds, I feel confident that going outside my breed is not really necessary.

Outside my comfort zone? You bet!

2Horse

May. 4, 2009, 08:41 PM

I can't believe some of these people.:eek: Warmbloods are NOT the only horse for dressage!!!!!!!!!
Sure, some excel at it, but so do other breeds! Not ALL warmbloods can make it to the olympics. And I can sure bet most people can't make it either!!!!
The poor Saddlebred has gotten a bad wrap due to the extreme breeding for Saddleseat that was in favor. Luckily a lot of breeders are recognizing that it is a downfall to the breed, and are trying to correct it.
I am a Saddlebred SPORT horse breeder. Have been for close to 20 years. I know a correctly conformed (more old style) Saddlebred could make it up the levels. It has happened, and I can bet you will see more doing it.:yes:
I see every day, more and more wbs are taking on some Saddlebred conformation and way of going. You know the main reason for it? Ridability. Rideablity is the Saddlebred's middle name. They try their hearts out for their person. They WANT to please. I have seen and owned wbs who lacked that very thing.

Couture TB

May. 4, 2009, 09:16 PM

I ride and show warmbloods. I also ride and show OTTBs. Oh and 'mutts'. All horses benefit from dressage training. The world dressage means training.

I have trained an ASB to 3rd level schooling 4th level movements. Showed him 3rd level. Showed a 14h QH mare 3rd level. My old upper level eventer I showed Prix St George, he was a OTTB. All of these horses moved correctly, had correct training, and for their breed had good gaits. Could they ever win against a WB? Maybe, but not likely. It is not that WBs are the only ones that can be shown/ridden/trained to the upper levels. It is just that is what you see mostly at those levels, and if you are going to show a non WB don't get upset if the judge places you behinde the WB that had the better gaits.

By the way I am an OTTB person thru and thru;)

For everyone who thinks only WBs can be trained for dressage, the read "My Horses My Teachers" by Alois Podhajsky. You should see some of the horses other then the Lippizans that he showed and trained to the upper levels.

If you really have your heart set on an ASB then look for the breeding stables rejects. Honestly, I have ridden and sold quite a few of those for breeders because they got a through back to when the ASB had a more bone, less knee, and a shorter back. Honestly around here (WI) you can pick those up for next to nothing.

D_BaldStockings

May. 4, 2009, 09:49 PM

Some posts back, someone mentioned why not buy a WB and say it was a Saddlebred -can't happen, Saddlebreds are DNAed upon registration, book is closed.

And I have no interest in living a lie.

Sabine

May. 5, 2009, 12:21 AM

To the OP: if you are looking for a dressage-bred Saddlebred- there are some breeders out there that breed for that purpose. Contact the breed society.
to the rest: I firmly believe that there are at most about 2 dozen qualified dressage trainers in the US actively training well-bred Saddlebreds for dressage. Horses that were purpose bred, started as dressage horses and trained in careful hands. In 5 years we'll begin seeing some in the national level comps- for sure- at 4th level or even higher.
It's the 'new' direction for those that can no longer afford to go to the 'select' auctions in Europe or have been hit otherwise hard with a combination of bad incidents (I think almost everyone has a story nowadays).
You ask why? Because the good ones are 'oily' that means that have a natural slinkiness throughout the body- with little blockage. Because the good ones do have a strong hind end- actually when selecting - pick one with strong hips and a solid conformation in the rear, because they are naturally hot- BUT much saner than most TBs I have ever ridden,
because they WANT TO WORK and PLEASE! Which can easily be abused- but also be rewarded properly and gives a rapid progression in training.

So there- go back to your basic Hilary Clayton- recommended Dressage conformation books, study those, pick a sane mind, good feet and a solid conformation, look for the 'oilyness' (but of course you have to know what that is...;) and off you go - with a purchase of 10-15K or less- nothing you can even look at from Europe.

Now the American WB breeders are doing a fabbo job- and I believe that there are very solid offerings out there although I am not familiar with the prices these days as I don't know if the economy has softened them. It used to be 15K for a very nice WB foal and up from there...so don't quote me on that - as I truly am not informed on the pricing structure.

slc2

May. 5, 2009, 06:54 AM

"living a lie"

Just remember, it is riding around in circles on livestock.

Maybe just ride the horse and stop the chest beating about how unfairly regarded and overlooked they are. 'Breedism' is so tiresome.

ASB Stars

May. 5, 2009, 07:14 AM

Jealoushe

May. 5, 2009, 09:19 AM

You might want to contact Chrissa Hoffman directly. I am sure she will be able to explain the type of work she does with the horses in her program, and her record speaks for itself.

I wasn't trying to bash anyone, just saying what I saw - a record does not mean didily to me when I am looking at the video. That does not mean the rider does not have other nice horses that go properly, or she isn't a good rider.

Just one opinion on one horse in one video.

Sorry, I don't want to start problems in the thread but the OP asked for opinions.

Calmar

May. 5, 2009, 11:30 AM

These are mostly very nice horses.Like all horses some have strong and weak points the others do not.I have seen many warmbloods that were not extemely gifted but were well trained become valid successful competition horses and there is no reason to think that if most of this bunch were in the right hands that they would not turn out splendidly.Breeders and promoters of ASB horses who want to see this breed gain acceptance in the "competition" dressage world need to stop just "talking the talk" and start taking action.Pick good trainers,send the good looking youngsters to them and see if they can be reasonably successful in competition.Particularly interesting would be to see some good ones that have been well started in FEI young horse division.If ASB dressage promoters dont begin REALLY doing this the concept will merely remain a speculative debate.

bort84

May. 5, 2009, 11:39 AM

I was gone over the weekend and just caught up with this thread...

Just wanted to respond to a few things because I am an ASB lover (though currently I am working a very talented appy dressage prospect because he has a penchant for dressage). Really, I'm a horse lover and welcome anything that comes through the door. I've worked with many "rejects" that have become stars. I would love a barnful of dressage horses of all breeds, including warmbloods = )

One comment that struck me - why would you spend the time to find an ASB that looks/moves like a warmblood? Why not just get a warmblood? There are a couple of reasons for this.

1) I often prefer the way an ASB thinks. Certainly not every horse in a breed will think the same, but, in my experience, I really like the way that most ASBs think. I think they are ridiculously trainable and sane and have some of the most try of any breed I've worked with. Also, I like the sensitivity of an ASB. So, if I had to pick between two horses that both looked exactly the same but one happened to be an ASB, I'd pick that one because I'd likely prefer his training/thinking style.

2) I can afford a much nicer "off breed" right now. If I have $10K to spend and don't want to raise a weanling, I can likely find an "off breed" that will beat the pants off of the $10K WB I can afford, haha.

Also, I really think that the modern dressage horse is starting to have some flashy tendencies... I like this development, though I know there are many on here that feel flash is being rewarded over correctness. I don't agree with that type of judging, but I see no problem with a correct horse also being flashy - it's the icing on the cake. So the ASB has a bit of an edge in that respect as well. Seems to me that some WBs are being bred to move a bit like saddlebreds... Hmm...

Another good point somebody made - ASBs that are of sport horse type are rarely put in the proper hands. They are often cast offs because their necks are a bit too short, or their trots are a bit lacking. They end up as lesson horses or as Amish horses or... Anyway, I think that with a little promotion and a few careful breeders, the ASB would be a welcome addition (well, welcome to some) to the dressage ring.

I think a lot of people on here don't have enough experience with ASBs to see the kind of versatility the breed has. They also don't see that there are different types of ASBs.

Why do some think it is so silly to selectively breed for sport ASBs? WBs have only been bred selectively for the Olympic disciplines for a relatively short amount of time. If you had shown me an ASB 70 years ago and a "WB" 70 years ago, I can guarantee that I would have tried to make the ASB into a sport horse, not the heavy WB. Why, if many people enjoy the rideability and mind of an ASB, is it so strange to the hardcore WB folks that some might choose to embark upon an ASB sport horse breeding program?

You have to start somewhere, and the ASB has the qualities and bloodlines to produce wonderful sport horses already - It's not like they would need 70 years of selective breeding to equal today's WB... We just need for ASB breeders to start being more careful and thoughtful.

Anyway, just some thoughts from someone who likes ASBs and WBs... I think there is room for both in the dressage ring and NOT just at the lower levels.

rabicon

May. 5, 2009, 11:57 AM

I don't have any problem with an ASB in dressage. I think some are very nice and can do dressage at lower levels very nicely. Now will they ever go grand prix or I1, don't know but I'm sure there are some that could with proper training and work. I just don't really like any that the op posted. The only one I like would be the palo. u/s. The rest just don't appeal to me as dressage type to move up the levels.

egontoast

May. 5, 2009, 12:03 PM

Enjoy whatever horse or breed you like but when you ask for opinions, as this thread did, that's what you'll get. Opinions. :)

equusaround

May. 5, 2009, 12:54 PM

To rein the discussion back to its original question - it was whether the videoed horses had "upper level" dressage capabilities. Although not defined by the OP, "upper level" dressage usually refers to FEI levels. The question was not whether all horses improved with dressage training (I think we all agree they do). Many of the opinions expressed identified the conformation attributes of ASB's that mitigate AGAINST an ASB being a successful FEI dressage horse. Most of these conformation attributes that mitigate against success at FEI dresssage levels were evident in one way or another in the horses in the videos.

ASBs were developed for a specific purpose - for plantation owners to travel their estates in comfort and style or to drive with style. The horse needed a good mind because the riders/drivers were going to be amateurs. Like the Hackney, the ASB developed characteristics that made for an elegant light carriage horse or a flashy and comfortable riding horse. Part of this development was a tendency for a flat croup, high neck, stiff back and high knee action.

If ASB breeders want to now throw off their heritage and historical purpose and breed FEI dressage horses, fine, but understand that this will require a fundamental change to the breed and the mechanics of the body of the horse as it has developed over the last 300 years.

It can be done...the Germans took their heavy farm and military horses at the end of WWII and within 40 years were breeding some of the best sport horses in the world. It required huge infusions of TB, Shagya and Arabian blood, government assistance and the brillant foresight of the breeding directors at the state run studs. The "mistakes" were culled early and eaten.

Absent this type of support and drive, I don't see the ASB making the leap to consistent FEI dressage prospects in the future.

Also, I was wrong about the SWB horse having records to the 13th century. It was the 12th century - OOPS. See:

"The History of the Swedish Horse:
The Swedish Warmblood, one of the oldest breeds on record, dates back to the 12th century. In 1661, King Carl X Gustaf developed the National Stud Farm in Flyinge, Sweden for the purpose breeding quality cavalry horses for mounted troops. In the 1970s when the military ceased using horses in the cavalry, the stud farm was turned over to the Swedish Warmblood Association (SWA). Four centuries later, the National Stud Farm continues to produce some of the top stallions and riding horses in the world and offers premier breeding, riding and research facilities."

The SWB didn't have to undergo the drastic "modernization" of the German horses after WWII because the SWB was developed from the native Scandanavian horse population (with infusion of TB, Arabian and Friesien blood over the years) and was never a "draft" breed but always a riding mount. This is why today many SWB horses are born with dorsal stripes and zebra stripes because the native SWB horse was a dun and the gene remains in the gene pool.

bort84

May. 5, 2009, 01:30 PM

Right, but I don't know that you exactly have to "throw off" 300 years of breeding to get an upper level quality dressage ASB... Many breeds are starting to have more "types" within the breed because there are good qualities that the breed can bring to different disciplines. WP QHs often look nothing like top cutting or reining horses. Saddle seat arabs usually are built quite a bit differently than WP arabs or endurance arabs. There are certainly more "sport" type TB studs out there - they often look very much like a WB and not very much like a typical racing TB.

My main point was just that the ASB has a lot of different types within the breed. Most outsiders don't see these types because they often don't make it to the saddle seat show ring. If they do, they are usually presented in such a way that it would take quite an eye to see them as a sport horse. Knowing and personally working with many of these different types, I don't see it as much of a stretch for sport breeders to be able to pick appropriate bloodlines and create a sport type with the ASBs out there today.

ASBs will obviously have difficulty living up to WB breeding programs because those programs are undoubtedly excellent and quite structured. I will not argue that. That's why most find it easier to find a WB sport horse prospect. However, just because it is currently easier doesn't mean there aren't other options out there - you just have to put a little more work into it. Some are willing to take this gamble with other breeds because they like something a different breed has to offer. Of the current American breeds (WBs excluded), I would say the ASB is one that has quite a bit of potential as a dressage-type AND at the upper levels...

Also, just wanted to add - I didn't really like most of the videos either = ) Most of them did not have the right kind of movement I would go looking for in an upper level dressage prospect. However, I also don't think the videos were a great representation of the breed - quite a few of those horses wouldn't be great saddle seat prospects either. Surprisingly, there are a lot of qualities that a top dressage horse should have that a top saddle seat horse should also have... A lot of ASB sport horse breeders do tend to pick top saddle seat bloodlines because they throw desired dressage qualities as well.

D_BaldStockings

May. 5, 2009, 03:57 PM

Two points, and really, I am not bashing, but existence of a stud farm does not mean the horses that it bred for 400 years were of a single type, nor that the genetics of that day are reflected in today's stock. Swedish WB are lovely horses, the modern program at Flyinge has produced some great horses. It is not the same as horses of 400 years ago.

For some reason length of pedigree has come into play here.
Guess what? Recent ancestry IS important. The lack of Saddlebred competitors in dressage, at least the lack of promotion of those who were competing, seems to now lead to the conclusion that they CAN'T be competitive. Only showing them will change that opinion; a human generation is considered to be 25 years and no one cares to seriously delve into history, preferring to rely on extrapolation and marketing half-statements, my own breed included.

Every horse alive today had ancestors living 100 generations ago. Nobody knows who they were, and that includes Thoroughbreds or would someone care to provide a pedigree for the Byerly Turk? Everyone rides horses living today, not their papers.

Point two: I feel an untrained prospect is different than a horse who displays (trained) capability. I realize there are limits to changing movement in individual horses and I appreciate people pointing that out to me and explaining their answers.

Whether an untrained horse can be TRAINED from a mental and physical standpoint to achieve those capabilities is a much livelier discussion, but until a horse does get trained, we do nothing here but annoy one another.

D_BaldStockings

May. 5, 2009, 07:50 PM

I don't know if this link will work for anyone, but this is one of the best researched books on horse breeds and very informative reading.
Link points to the Swedish Warmblood
http://books.google.com/books?id=rhNFW0sD3jMC&pg=PA321&lpg=PA321&dq=swedish+horse+breeds&source=bl&ots=fc9cLy-TnU&sig=c9Z_snJELPNzC2rfmT-aqQeyKPU&hl=en&ei=080ASpL9NYjwtAO44NX5BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10#PPA408,M1

and the American Saddlebred
http://books.google.com/books?id=rhNFW0sD3jMC&pg=PA321&lpg=PA321&dq=swedish+horse+breeds&source=bl&ots=fc9cLy-TnU&sig=c9Z_snJELPNzC2rfmT-aqQeyKPU&hl=en&ei=080ASpL9NYjwtAO44NX5BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10#PPA23,M1

Find your own breed of choice using the search within the book function.

And yes, I realize there have been 30 years of change since it was written.

Enjoy

D_BaldStockings

May. 5, 2009, 08:17 PM

...and of course the pages are restricted, so here is SWANA
http://www.swanaoffice.org/page_BreedHistory.aspx

and a lady presenting the breed in Alberta, Canada in 2003
http://www.albertahorseindustry.ca/hboc/2003/proceedings/swedish_sport.pdf

The recent record of swedish WB is great, no need to go back to the 1600's :)

Sorry I have taken this off topic. I appreciate all input on this thread.

Calmar

May. 6, 2009, 10:33 AM

I think to say that this group of horses are not "FEI quality" horses cannot be decided from these sample videos.There is not enough canter walk representation.But lets give the bebefit of the doubt and say the canter and walk quality and athleticism is equal to the trots we do see.Then we clone our own favorite trainer[pick yours,Van Grunsven,Wirth,Klimke,Oliveira]and make 20 of that person.Give them the best 5 of those saddlebreds,agree that they are neither the best or the worst,5 WB's,Freisian's,and Lusitanos of the same description,all the right economic and environmental resourses,and 6 years to do the work and this group of saddlebreds have as much or more chance of becoming great finished horses as any of the others.After the 6 years your cloned "Balkanol" may end up an advocate of saddlebreds too.

bort84

May. 6, 2009, 10:57 AM

Ambrey

May. 6, 2009, 11:19 AM

Haha, that would be fun, wouldn't it? It could be like the mustang challenge they do... Maybe if I win the lottery someday I'll set up the Breeds of the World Dressage Challenge - Riders will draw a horse at random and will have 5 years to train it. $1MM pot = ) Finals in Las Vegas during a World Cup, haha.

That sounds like such a fabulous idea :) Only choose a breed and a specific price point- like $2500 for an unstarted 3 year old. That will level the playing field a bit for those who choose the warmblood breeds ;)

It would make it tough for the Friesian, though :(

cuatx55

May. 6, 2009, 11:44 AM

Good: Nice shoulder reach, impulsion, elegant horses, "light" and springy, sensitive.

Bad: weak loins/hip, leg movers, stiff backs. energy doesn't travel through body, in general these do not show rotation of the pelvis.

I don't care what the breed is (I don't personally care to ride WBs), but you have to have a nice hip and supple back. Horses can learn to be back movers to some degree. It depends on how easy they learn to rotate and "sit". I have a croup high horse that has been taught to overcome this, but the horse also has some substance to the hip (engine). No horse is perfect, WBs included. A lot depends on the personality of the horse, trust in rider, and work ethic.

equusaround

May. 6, 2009, 01:14 PM

That sounds like such a fabulous idea :) Only choose a breed and a specific price point- like $2500 for an unstarted 3 year old. That will level the playing field a bit for those who choose the warmblood breeds ;)

It would make it tough for the Friesian, though :(

Earth to Ambrey, earth to Ambrey - you can't buy ANY decent 3 y.o. purposefully bred horse for $2,500 unless the breeder is taking a blood bath on the costs involved with the horse. Just to recap - stud fee, vet bills for insemination/follow through during pregnancy, amortized cost of decent mare, feed for mare during pregnancy, bedding (or board fees), vet bills associated with checking IgG on foal etc., feeding foal and mare until weaning, costs for shoer for mare and also foal for 3 years of monthly trimming, shots for foal, rotational worming for mare 18 months/foal 36 months, time spent haltering, leading, grooming, loading training, showing in hand, longing, vet/dental bills for removing wolf teeth of foal, dental care for mare 18 months, feeding foal for 36 months, registration, inspection, branding, DNA, horse registrations for USEF, USDF...NO WAY CAN THIS BE DONE FOR $2,500.00.

I have some horses I've paid over $4,700 for the stud fee alone, another $3,000 in vet bills for the insemination, ultrasounds, etc. and then you pay all those additional costs set forth above. Unless the horse was a complete cripple and had its legs on backwards or its head came straight out of its shoulders with no neck, I would never sell a 3 y.o. for $2,500 unless it was either that or starving to death. Bad Kharma if you take advantage of breeders of good horses.

Without us, you won't have any horses to ride.

Calmar

May. 6, 2009, 01:36 PM

Watch some of these loose saddlebreds transition themselves down from that strong "pasture trot" to halt and or a rollback the other way and tell me they dont rotate the pelvis.

Ambrey

May. 6, 2009, 01:38 PM

Earth to Ambrey, earth to Ambrey - you can't buy ANY decent 3 y.o. purposefully bred horse for $2,500 unless the breeder is taking a blood bath on the costs involved with the horse.

LOL, I was mostly joking- making it something like the "mustang challenge." But the $4700 stud fee thing was exactly my point- the reason people go "off-breed" is sometimes because the cost of the purpose-bred, high quality warmblood is way out of their range, while a sporthorse bred, high quality horse of a different breed might be affordable.

So take all of the breeds, come up with an average price for a purpose bred unbroke 3 year old, and make that the limit, then see which breed gives you the most bang for the buck given equal quality and amount of training.

This, of course, doesn't satisfy those who are passionate about a breed and would choose it regardless of price, but it might be an eye opener!

bort84

May. 6, 2009, 01:41 PM

I don't know, I think you can often buy nice horses for 2,500. Sure, it sucks for the breeder, but I've had quite a few horses for around that price (from 2 year olds to 15 year olds) that were very nice. Some horses end up in bad places, or some horses may not get recognized because they don't have enough flash or the perfect conformation. Perhaps they think a little differently and require an experienced hand.

Obviously, if a talented looking 3 year old is still with its breeder, you are going to be paying a good price for it. But it's not exactly impossible to buy a good 3 year old prospect for $2,500... You just have to look a bit harder and longer.

However, for the imaginary competition I'm dreaming up, I'd probably put a higher price point on it, say, $10K? Maybe $20K? That way, you'd be getting decent prospects, but not ridiculously priced ones. You could get a nice representative of each breed without them necessarily being the ones expected to be international stars. How lovely if they then became international stars = )

equusaround

May. 6, 2009, 03:08 PM

This is a 2006 filly that I bred that has FEI potential. Compare her to the other horses we've been discussing.

Notice the natural ability and desire to "sit" at 3 months (actually she wants to be a 16.3 hand reiner...)

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff171/teamgauguin/IMG021-1-1.jpg

And how she naturally brings her legs well under her center of gravity (now she thinks she's a race horse...)

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff171/teamgauguin/IMG016.jpg

At 6 months, naturally steps well under (as does her dam):

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff171/teamgauguin/gaylecarlsonchip4dsc_2122_std.jpg

Powerful haunches that produce a lot of air...(I'm not looking forward to starting Nini in 2 months...)

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff171/teamgauguin/gaylecarlsonchip4dsc_2075_std.jpg

As a 2 y.o.:

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff171/teamgauguin/IMG_1489.jpg

And the natural articulation of her haunches is visible in her trot off:

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff171/teamgauguin/IMG_1529.jpg

These are the type of attributes that should be part of a horse that has a real shot at being a genuine FEI candidate. Although I bred this filly to be an FEI dressage horse, I have a sneaking hunch that she might end up an international caliber jumper, however - I'll know more in a couple of months when I start free jumping her. She was just over 16.1 hands at 22 months but 16.2+ behind. Growing like a weed!

SmartAlex

May. 6, 2009, 03:52 PM

Earth to Ambrey, earth to Ambrey - you can't buy ANY decent 3 y.o. purposefully bred horse for $2,500 unless the breeder is taking a blood bath on the costs involved with the horse.

Kim, would you care to step up and volunteer what you paid for Atlas? :D

But it's true, it was a blood bath, because Atlas was BRED to be a five gaited horse, and he came out a Sport Horse. Whoops. MANY decent sport type Saddlebreds go for less than $2,500 or even $250 because they were meant to be something else, and the breeders have no idea how or where to market them and maybe don't care to learn.

2Horse

May. 6, 2009, 04:42 PM

This is a 2006 filly that I bred that has FEI potential.

Nice horse Equus!
I have two in my field right now that does the same thing. And one is full Saddlebred and the other an ASB cross.:)

bort84

May. 6, 2009, 04:58 PM

Nice horse Equus!
I have two in my field right now that does the same thing. And one is full Saddlebred and the other an ASB cross.:)

Yay! Keep 'em coming = ) What are their bloodlines? Do you have any pics?

ASB Stars

May. 6, 2009, 06:01 PM

Allow me to explain a bit about breeding American Saddlebred show horses. They are either worth HUGE money, as young horses, or not so much. There are, of course, the horses whose value elevates sharply with training, but there is ONE criteria for a successful show horse that rules above every...other...thing...(those of you who know me may yawn now :lol:)

Neck set. In order for a show horse to win in todays show rings, their neck MUST come out of their shoulder such that they are capable of placing their heads up, where the bottomside of their neck is perpendicular to the ground. THEN they MUST turn over at the poll such that the front plane of their face does as close as possible to the same thing. This exagerated "Black Beauty" style head set is todays show ring paradigm, and every thing else- motion, gameness, beauty- comes after. No headset=no show horse= no BIG $$$.

What do I mean by BIG bucks? I can think of several weanlings, sold by a BNT to another BNT's clients, in a package (3)for over 100K. I can think of a mare, VERY well bred- who had NEVER shown- 500K- and the client never was able to ride her- she just sold to another BNT- with a much better riding client.

The air is rare at the top, and after the top, the fall is precipitous. Breeders are willing to make deals on young stock who do not have the magic neckset- irregardless of how fabulous their bloodline are- because the trainers won't even give them a chance, in most cases. YES, there are young horses who change into show horses when they "wear leather", and many breeders are responsible enough to at least get them working- but still in all, at the end of the day, the colts who fit the paradigm will be filling the barn.

What do the "rejects" look like. They look like wonderful horses, thank you very much. I am sure some folks here can post some pix- and I'll dig some out later. ASB_OWN_ME has a GORGEOUS young horse, who is going to light the world up. And if she hadn't bought him, he'd be in front of a buggy. Not a breeder's highest aspiration, but it is what there is when the breed association doesn't work to cultivate a market for all of the horses they register in a year.

Here are two by the leading sire of show horses in the history of the ASB breed.

This one is at his first horse show- he went on to a Reserve World's Championship that year:
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t18/bryndewinesfarm/RoiDuSoliel2006-1.jpg

This one is the inimitable Harry Callahan, with Chrissa Hoffman:
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t18/bryndewinesfarm/KDAtrotsmall2.jpg

Same sire. Very different horses.

2Horse

May. 6, 2009, 07:27 PM

Yay! Keep 'em coming = ) What are their bloodlines? Do you have any pics?

I don't have any recent pictures. I'll try to knock the mud off of them when it dries up some, and get some pictures.:lol:

The full ASB is by Friday Knight Jive, who is by Arrowhead Chief and out of a Status Symbol mare.

Her dam Top Flight's Classic Edition, who is by a Flight Time stallion and her granddam is Stonewall bred.

You can see her lines at http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/top+flights+final+edition
This filly's dam is also the dam of Achilles.

The second filly is by my ASB/Friesian stallion, who was out of the above filly's dam too.

SmartAlex

May. 6, 2009, 07:56 PM

What do I mean by BIG bucks?

A friend of mine was in the barns at Louisville and personally heard someone turn down 2 million for a greenish 3 yr old five gaited horse (who didn't even win his class). The lady later accepted 4, then did the math, realised after commission and taxes she would pocket only the original two, and backed out of the four.

That qualifies as big bucks... :yes:

SmartAlex

May. 6, 2009, 08:17 PM

Here is my Big Breeding Program reject whom I took home, found didn't want to be even a low level Saddle Seat horse, and had to buy all new tack, and start learning a new discipline for. We will be starting dressage lessons mostly to teach my sorry butt how to ride differently. I paid more than twice what I know nicer sport type prospects go for, and it was still well under 5k as a two year old. He was an embryo transplant foal so they gambled and lost on him. They sent him to auction to take his chances. Probably not upper level material, I wouldn't know if he was...but a nice moving, GREAT thinking, athletic horse.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q113/smartalex_photos/Grey/Favorite.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q113/smartalex_photos/Grey/Britaandthegreyhorse070.jpg

And, his half brother whom I was hoping he would take after...
http://www.howardschatzberg.com/Proofs/2008%20Horse%20Shows/2008%20American%20Royal/NOV%2022,%20SATURDAY/Evening/141%20-%20Fine%20Harness,%20National%20Championship/Images/141-008-08AR.JPG

Same dam, totally different horses.

And just for fun, a colt by my horse's sire. He has won two world's championships, as a 2 yr old and 3 yr old. WAY different horses.

http://www.saddlebredshowcase.com/LJL08/j091/images/8LJK0820.jpg

slc2

May. 6, 2009, 08:51 PM

You might want to put that martingale up before he puts a foot in it and you have a collossal wreck.

D_BaldStockings

May. 6, 2009, 08:59 PM

Thanks, everyone.

Young horses are often sold for their highest price at the breeder level - not many live up $$ to their early idealized promise, so many things can just not fall into place.

There was a recent non-sale at auction of some nice foxhunters, where breeders of the same bloodlines were getting very good prices for young stock at their farms; and I have been to an auction where western stock horse audience did not bid on some very well bred, big moving and typy WB that shipped in from Canada for the sale. I seem to have seen a few threads involving warmbloods going through 'kill auctions' as well and there is a rescue now that has a European WB as well as a Saddlebred they are trying to rehome.

Prices reflect the immediate market and how well that the horse fits existing expectations within that specific market. No marketing (with real performance to back it up) often means no market $$.

If anyone else would like to tell the story of King's Lady in Black, now that is a nice marketing stance for Saddlebreds...

Thanks to all of you posting pics of your horse, young and old. Good ones of any breed really are an owner's pride and joy :)

D_BaldStockings

May. 6, 2009, 09:06 PM

slc2 -Thanks for looking at the pics.

Did you happen to notice the hind leg stepping under in the pic with the martiingale?

And there is a strap going over the horse neck from ring to ring. Not usual outside most Saddleseat riders, but it does keep the legs out of the martingale if the horse should nosedive -his neck base is limited by withers, of course.

Funny how easy it seem to be to overlook good points...

SmartAlex

May. 6, 2009, 09:22 PM

You might want to put that martingale up before he puts a foot in it and you have a collossal wreck.

Yes, I cringe everytime I look at that martingale in the photo. The neck strap from ring to ring over his withers needed to be tighter. There is a strap end at the buckle between his front legs which makes it look as if there is a giant loop from his breast back to the girth. It was properly adjusted, however, to cope with his headset when he went "Saddlebird" on me a few minutes prior...
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q113/smartalex_photos/Grey/ParkHack.jpg

And I hadn't changed a thing. No danger of catching the bit end of the reins on it, and if he could get a hind foot up in it... then we'd have an upper level prospect ;)

equusaround

May. 6, 2009, 09:57 PM

SmartAlex - you might wnt to try longing your grey horse for 20 minutes/day in sliding side reins to get him used to be long and low and coming over his back. If you did that for about a year on a religious schedule of 20 minutes before you ride each day, he would start to get it and his muscles would retrain. You can buy those reins from Top Tack through the Dover catalog or Dressage Extensions. Expect to pay about $50 - 60. Longe nice and easy and encourage your hores to reach down (nose almost to the ground) and trot, bending your horse in a little bit and then asking the horse to move up with the whip.

Good luck.

slc2

May. 6, 2009, 10:04 PM

ASB Stars

May. 7, 2009, 07:24 AM

"funny how overlook good points''

If you ever come up for air on this particular subject, send a bulletin, LOL!

I am not overlooking good points, I am pointing out an extremely dangerous hazard.

If the horse changes his head position that much, you can't use a training martingale safely, they are designed for a very narrow range of positions. Use something else to get the horse's head down before you have a not so glorious wreck.

Since your post followed mine, I am assuming you are refering to the picture of the two year old. While you are entitled to your opinion, I seriously doubt that the trainer driving that horse really cares about it. He actually managed to survive the experience, and showed under saddle following his debut in harness. And it isn't really the point, is it?

Back to our regularly scheduled programming.

slc2

May. 7, 2009, 07:46 AM

I'm not referring to a driving picture, that picture doesn't have the martingale hanging down in the least bit. The one I'm referring to is an under saddle picture of a grey horse. Back to YOUR regularly scheduled program, LOL!

SmartAlex it is a really nice horse, but it does need to stretch like the other lady wrote. It doesn't require a side rein thingie to stretch but it can help you get things started.

D_BaldStockings

May. 7, 2009, 08:56 AM

slc2-well, it is my topic.
I don't see that staying focused on my regular program (not coming up for air) is a problem. I probably won't respond to that type comment in future: it is a good way to derail a topic or a debate, but I don't have to follow that time-wasting lead on.

and slc2- I would like to take the time to THANK YOU for the stretching information you just posted, that is a help, and everyone's advice for improving is welcome -or why would I bother to come to a forum.

General comments to all:

I guess I should also thank all the posters of pics for their courage.

I guess I come from an older generation where I was trained to rank horses A-B-C by their faults and good points, "A over B because he moves straighter, has a longer stride, better bend in his circle; granted B shows more submission and prompt smooth transitions with more consistent contact. A's halt was not square, on the forehand in some movements; and B fell behind the vertical."

'yuck' and 'painful to watch' 'didn't see anything useful' are non-descriptive emotional opinions. So not terribly useful, to me, though valid in their own right.

SmartAlex

May. 7, 2009, 08:59 AM

Thank you for the compliment and the tips from both equusaround and slc2. That was the martingale adjustment I used on him after I was trying to gait him a couple of years ago. I put it on to keep him from thinking I wanted him to tip his nose up (as if I were training him to rack), as you can see, it is so long as to be completely useless to encourage his head down. That was our first ride after the whole winter off, and young horses can easily revert back to earlier training when excited and eager, which he did. I won't bore you with bad pictures, but he did try to rack for me that day just to see if that was what I still wanted.

The idea (and techniques employed) of stretching down over the back is completely foreign to me (extensive Saddleseat background) so I am still fumbling around with it, reading books and this forum, and planning to haul him to lessons this summer. The first time I felt him reach forward, raise his back, and seek contact was pretty amazing. It took me a year just to get his walk back after I spent 6 months "turning him upside down" trying to get him gaited. Of course, those pictures were from the first weekend in March, and after 2 months of consistent work he comes out with his head much much lower as a starting point.

I didn't set out to have a sport type dressage horse. I am trying to adapt my riding expectations to the advantage of a horse I love so both of us can enjoy and benefit from our riding time. Which, has brought me to the wide and foreign world of dressage... Sorry to hijack and stray off topic... but my story is a fine example of what "us Saddlebred people" are doing poking around here in your world :cool:

ASB Stars

May. 7, 2009, 09:28 AM

I had a colt by the same sire as Smart Alex's grey, who I sold last year, as a two year old, to a dressage client. The colt will be in training with EqTrainer, so you can follow his adventures through her, I am sure.

Currently, I have a filly by the same stud, who is in KY, learning the sport horse thing. She is stunning, and possesses the same fabulous attitude, and athleticism, of SA's horse, and EqT's client's colt. Some of these families are just WOW for putting elegant athletes out there.

Quality is quality. RWC Roi du Soleil is a show horse. The colt in EqT's hands, L'Azure Soleil ("Blue") will be a dressage horse. They are out of the same mare. They both have the ability to lift and carry- but Blue has more ability to lift and work over his back, as well as drive off of his hocks like his brother- so, he is on a different path.

The main issue here is translation, for the horses, and those viewing them. It is much harder to look at a horse who has been taught a different language, and see that they can learn your language, too. It is also harder to understand, because there is no real comparison anywhere else in the horse world. A race horse may learn to go fast- but you can see the frame and movement- and realize that this can work for you. It takes some time, watching the ASB show horses, and realizing what will work, and what would be more challenging.

But it is really, really worthwhile. A whole new group of beautiful- and still affordable- athletes and partners from which to choose. :winkgrin:

EqTrainer

May. 7, 2009, 09:35 AM

Yes, I have "Blue" aka Monkey Boy here with me as we type :) well, not in the room w/me, but in the pasture...

he's a really nice kid. I will try to take some pics of him to post now that he has had some time in the big field, running around and laying down muscle. ASB Stars sure can pick 'em - when we went looking for the right ASB, it was clear to me very quickly that I could just avoid running all around the USA and just go straight to her.

She now has two older horses in dressage training w/her trainer and she is being very, very modest about both of them :winkgrin: One thing you can count on, is that if she says something is "nice" she means REALLY NICE, not just kinda nice :lol:

I hope she will post some pics of the two older horses :)

bort84

May. 7, 2009, 11:21 AM

ASB Stars sure can pick 'em - when we went looking for the right ASB, it was clear to me very quickly that I could just avoid running all around the USA and just go straight to her.

Oh goody. ASB Stars, I'm coming to you in a couple of years (when I have additional $$, haah) when I go ASB sport horse hunting! I absolutely love what you're doing. I love the saddlebred, and I first loved them as saddle seat horses and still do. But I'm so interested in promoting the breed in a new way, so that more people can experience what wonderful horses they are. We need more people like you to get this movement going = )

Neck set. In order for a show horse to win in todays show rings, their neck MUST come out of their shoulder such that they are capable of placing their heads up, where the bottomside of their neck is perpendicular to the ground. THEN they MUST turn over at the poll such that the front plane of their face does as close as possible to the same thing. This exagerated "Black Beauty" style head set is todays show ring paradigm, and every thing else- motion, gameness, beauty- comes after. No headset=no show horse= no BIG $$$.

Ugh, I completely know what you mean. I worked for a guy that bought this beautiful filly as a yearling because her neck stood straight up and then hinged right over at the poll. Freaky ears and huge beautiful eyes. But as soon as you get to her wither and shoulder, nothing... They paid a LOT of money for her, and now she's destined to be a 10 and under walk and trot star because she has a low back, weak hind end, and no motion whatsoever...

From the first time I laid eyes on her, I knew that's what she would be. Sweet as can be, but all she is is a pretty face/neck. I hate that there are ASB breeders out there that are sacrificing good conformation for a crazy front end. It's not good for the saddlebred as a saddle seat horse nor is it good for the saddlebred as a versatile breed. And you KNOW someone is going to buy this freaky necked mare and breed her... Just what we need, another long backed, skinny necked ASB with a weak hind end. That's NOT how they're supposed to be, people, it's simply careless/greedy breeding...

The main issue here is translation, for the horses, and those viewing them. It is much harder to look at a horse who has been taught a different language, and see that they can learn your language, too. It is also harder to understand, because there is no real comparison anywhere else in the horse world.

But it is really, really worthwhile. A whole new group of beautiful- and still affordable- athletes and partners from which to choose. :winkgrin:

Couldn't have said it better = )