Anyone on the fence about breeding in this economy????

[talloaks]

I just can't quite come to terms about breeding two of my mares this year, in this economy. I have the contracts paid and just haven't sent them back to the stallion owners. I hate to put the mares through pregnancies and then have a couple of foals I can't sell, or maybe sell for less than what I have into them. I just don't know if it is worth the wear and tear on the mares and stress on us.
What are others thoughts on this matter??? I see so many farms with so many youngsters for sale that haven't been moving and I hate to add to the over horse problem.
So do I just forget what I have into the breedings and call it a loss now with out breeding--or go through with the breedings and additonal expenses????? I have a hunter in training and that is really draining on my horse funds so that is another consideration. Now if he sold, then that bleeding would stop and I could probably feel better going forward with the two breedings this year.
Help! I feel so confused!!:confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused::confused:

[talloaks]

Just heard what the farmers are doing in FL with the tomato problem. There are too many tomatoes and the farmers need $10 a box to break even and they are only getting $6 a box in this economy!! So they are plowing all the plants under and not producing anymore tomatoes.
Is that the answer??? Stop producing???:eek:

[ilikridn]

It is a tough decision. I'm breeding three mares this year. One of them is a quarter horse and I already have a potential buyer for that baby, but I might want to keep it myself.

The other two are WBs and I still have a 2-yr-old WB filly for sale. Even though she's always been for sale, we have fully planned on keeping her until she's under saddle, so we are not upset we haven't sold her yet. I am prepared to keep next year's two until under saddle as well. It would be nice if they would sell before then, but I'm prepared to raise them and back them if need be.

Next year is a whole 'nother story! When I have a field full of horses, I don't know that breeding more will be in my best interest at that time. And the problem of horse overpopulation is always in the back of my mind.

So that didn't really help you or answer your question, did it? ;)

[YankeeLawyer]

No.; the top foals are still selling. I actually was a bit surprised by the number of inquiries I already have received re: my 2009 foals (now ages 2 weeks and 6 weeks). I already bred one mare back to Stedinger for 2010.

[Forte]

Just my opinion as a buyer and (very) small breeder . . . I think you are producing a very top quality high end product, your foals will still sell. I think the breeders who are breeding with frozen or to top quality stallions in N. America (think Iron Spring Farm or Hilltop) and have high quality, possibly imported mares, they are still doing fine. If you are breeding a lesser quality mare, or to a local stallion that has TONS of offspring on the ground, you will probably be hit hard by the economy, and you may be better off not breeding. I found that it's a great time to buy right now. I just picked up a fancy little 3 year old with 30 days of training for almost half the breeder's original asking price.
That said, if you've already paid the stud fee . . . heck, I'd probably just go for it. Good luck with whatever you decide.

[retrofit]

The tomato farmers are probably getting gov't subsidies to plow their crops under. You, on the other hand, are not represented by a powerful lobbyist and won't receive squat if you don't produce your "wares."

[SpruceLane]

We chose last year not to breed our mare back and waited for this year. Over the winter she coliced and had to be put down (inoperable 360 degree torsion). Small comfort (very small) that she was not in foal at the time. With her loss I have not opted to replace her (we still have her 2008 gelding here - too bad he wasn't a she) so we won't be breeding this year either.

[Blacktree]

We're still on the fence about breeding this year ourselves. With the economy and me starting to work as a contractor from home (less stable income), we're kind of playing the waiting game to see what happens.

We just sold a filly last month, so I think if we sell one more baby before the end of breeding season, we'll go for it and breed our mare again this year. Just trying to be conservative until things start looking better.

[imapepper]

I was planning on breeding my mare this year but lost my job so my plans have changed. I was breeding for myself so resale was not one of my considerations. But I am now working contract and really cannot justify another horse until I feel like I have more stable income. I am hoping to try next year if things have changed :)

[Kyzteke]

Well, I'm betting things will be righting themselves in another 12-16 months (the time it will take for me to produce foals for next season).

If all goes according to plan, I'll have 6 foals next year.

In my area, hay has already dropped $100 a ton from it's all time high (winter of '07-08). I've already sold one of my 3 sale horses (had to drop the price abit, but certainly not taking a bath) and getting good interest on the other two without a lot of advertising.

For the most part, I breed mid-range (price-wise) horses and have my own stallion, so don't have to worry about stud fees. This year I am swapping breedings with another stallion owner in one case, so no extra expense there either. On occasion I produce a "higher end" foal by breeding to a top tier WB stallion, but usually only one of those a year.

This year my Hanoverian mare is in foal to Rosenthal, but that foal won't even be for sale if it's a filly.

So it will either all work out ok, or I'll go down in flames....but I have a passion for horses that defies mere dollars (and sense/cents :lol: ), and I'm betting there are plenty of other people out there like me. Horse people MUST have horses....

[Go Fish]

I sold my last broodmare this year, but would have probably bred her this spring had I kept her. She is an outstanding producer and her show record and breeding speaks for itself. Someone wanted her pretty badly and I've decided to concentrate and spend my funds on my show horses.

I think anybody considering breeding in this economy is taking a risk. I really believe that things are going to get worse before they get better.

[Oakstable]

Whether to breed or not is a very personal decision. Factors include the age of your mares and how close YOU are to retirement. I'm facing pressure on both fronts.

[talloaks]

Whether to breed or not is a very personal decision. Factors include the age of your mares and how close YOU are to retirement. I'm facing pressure on both fronts.


:lol::lol::lol: You must know how old I really am!!:lol::lol::lol:

[Izthatrt]

I am not breeding any this year. Tho' my reason is not based on the economy, its based on my time and space available . I have 5 foals coming this yr. I have two on the ground and 3 more on the way. I just don't have the time or room to stand my Welsh stallion(which is why he is now leased to P.Wynn Norman) and I don't want to be tempted just because he is standing here. I KNOW I couldn't resist if he was standing here! I have 4 very nice 3 yr.olds in training and am finishing a 4 yr. old, so just don't have the time .

[retrofit]

One issue that I don't see addressed very much is a breeder's need to sell their offspring quickly.

Of course selling offspring quickly limits risk of injury or loss.

But most horses will go for much more $$$ under saddle than as foals.

From observation, it seems that most breeders don't start their own offspring under saddle. If they have not sold a foal they bred at age 3, they are forced to pay for a trainer - which quickly turns into a loss no matter how much the horse sells for.

Also from observation - the market is for foals or 3+ year olds. Not too many people buy yearlings or 2 year olds. That puts the pressure on breeders to sell the foals in the year of their birth.

It seems to me that if a breeder is unable to start their own offspring and therefore under pressure to sell the foal the year of its birth - that the current economy would play a bigger role. However, if you are in a position to keep the horse, start it yourself & market it as a 3 year old - that gives the economy more time to turn around, and makes it less of a factor.

Like I said in the subject, these are just the observations of a (mostly) outsider, so correct me if I'm wrong.

[Daydream Believer]

I was just talking about this on our breed forum recently. I had it in my head to cut way back and then in the last week, I've sold two horses. One is a gelding going to some lovely people as a riding horse and another is a yearling filly I bred who is headed for Switzerland next Spring.

I have six coming this year and 4 here and healthy and two to go. I do think I'm going to breed but will breed less than I did this year. Perhaps 3 foals versus 6. I am in the position to keep them, train them and sell them and as rare as our breed is...if I don't breed a few, there will be nothing to train/work with in a year or so.

[YankeeLawyer]

But most horses will go for much more $$$ under saddle than as foals.

Agreed, if they are nice. You do have to factor in the cost of raising them for three years, though, in determining whether it is worth the risk, time, and money to hang onto them.



From observation, it seems that most breeders don't start their own offspring under saddle. If they have not sold a foal they bred at age 3, they are forced to pay for a trainer - which quickly turns into a loss no matter how much the horse sells for.

I could start mine but opt to send them to a specialist who is really good and who has a stellar reputation; it is important to me to ensure the horse has every chance of success and that the new owner gets off to a good start. I believe a good foundation adds vaue to the horse and by that time I have enough invested that an extra 3K or so to get the horse started correctly is fairly irrelevant - and can make the difference between making a horse unsaleable and being able to sell the same horse for well into 5 figures+.


Also from observation - the market is for foals or 3+ year olds. Not too many people buy yearlings or 2 year olds. That puts the pressure on breeders to sell the foals in the year of their birth.

It seems to me that if a breeder is unable to start their own offspring and therefore under pressure to sell the foal the year of its birth - that the current economy would play a bigger role. However, if you are in a position to keep the horse, start it yourself & market it as a 3 year old - that gives the economy more time to turn around, and makes it less of a factor.

Like I said in the subject, these are just the observations of a (mostly) outsider, so correct me if I'm wrong.

As I said, I don't start mine myself but I nonetheless am not under pressure to sell any horse as a foal; my business plan contemplates selling them either as foals or once started and as I have my own farm and room to raise the babies, I can afford to wait until the optimal time to sell.

[Ladybug Hill]

I still think we are producing too many. I might breed one mare in 2010, but otherwise I am backing away from breeding for now.

[Sportpony]

I've been cutting back over the last three years due to my age, so regardless of the economy, I've been putting fewer foals on the ground every year for the last three years and selling additional horses as well.

I only bred two mares last year as I still had (at that point) four "could go under saddle" broodmares for sale and several youngsters ... yearlings and twos ...

I now have just one 6 year old sportpony mare just backed for sale, nothing else. While I don't plan to keep as many youngsters over as I have in the past, I do like to have at least one or two 3 year olds as well as weanlings.

My breeding this year will end up being based on the number of weanlings I feel I can manage if none sell. The number will definitely be lower than even two years ago, but will probably end up breeding four of my six mares this year.

[Zlotych]

Has this topic not yet been discussed to death?
Breeders must do what suits their individual needs and situations first and foremost. Taking a monthly survey of the state of the breeding union seems silly, and may infact add fuel to the fire, sort of how well the news media does.

If a breeder must absolutely sell the offspring as foals (Expecting a top price) vs. being prepared to keep anything you put on the ground until riding age, then yes you probably need to do some soul searching about breeding in the current market.

[talloaks]

Has this topic not yet been discussed to death?
Breeders must do what suits their individual needs and situations first and foremost. Taking a monthly survey of the state of the breeding union seems silly, and may infact add fuel to the fire, sort of how well the news media does.

If a breeder must absolutely sell the offspring as foals (Expecting a top price) vs. being prepared to keep anything you put on the ground until riding age, then yes you probably need to do some soul searching about breeding in the current market.


Ah but times are a changing---saw where the stock market is to head up to 9500!!! Wouldn't that change your opinion on breeding if in fact it did?? Oh maybe you just don't care one way or the other, or are not a breeder!!;)

[ilikridn]

It is a topic that is pretty much at the forefront right now in America (the economy, not breeding). So discussing once a month, especially during breeding season, is not unreasonable.

Things definitely are constantly changing right now, and based on the number of replies to this thread AND the number of people reading it, apparently it hasn't been discussed to death... or it would die.

I for one keep checking back to see what others have to say about it! :)

[sid]

If one has a business plan, a successfuly history in the breeding business, and have the financial reserves available to subsidize costs when "sales" are down, then I would think one might continue to breed unfazed, but perhaps cautiously. For the most part, the breeders on COTH have been supportive of each other and personally I think this dialogue is helpful to all.

As we can see here, people are assessing their breeding programs and that is just good business thinking. That's a good thing for both horses and the people who breed them, IMO.:yes:

Almost all individuals, and surely those with business interests, are looking at life this way right now regarding almost every financial decision they make, which is justified and prudent.

Just because someone is cutting back, doesn't reek of lack of confidence in their product (i.e. offspring) or imply that their breeding endeavors have been so "shakey" it's afraid it can't weather this economic storm.

Just the opposite. It is good business sense, common sense, to look at horse buying trends, pay attention to the economy regarding "luxury" items like horses. If there is uncertaintly whether the buying market will bear the costs of producing that product (no matter how excellent it is), then the business plan may have to change temporarily. No shame in that.

Whether it is sold en utero, as a weanling or a 3 year old with the "basics" put on, they are three different products with three different "price points" and associated expenses to the breeder.

Surely, every breeder has their own business model and only they know how or if they need to tweak it during these economic times. Those who breed one or two may not need to be as focused, if they are "flush", but those who breed a whole lot more with little profit margin, probably should be. JMHO

Best to all!

[ilikridn]

Well said, Susan.

Hubby works in the restaurant business for a large company. They have had to cancel restaurant openings that were in the pipeline and in some cases walk away from leases that were already signed. I would think that all business is being reevaluated at this time. And they don't only talk about it once and are done with it. They "discuss it to death!" ;)

[feather river]

The tomato farmers are probably getting gov't subsidies to plow their crops under. You, on the other hand, are not represented by a powerful lobbyist and won't receive squat if you don't produce your "wares."

You missed the central point of the tomato farmer decision. Even with government subsidy the farmers aren't going to spend $10 to get back $6. You must be new to the current economic issues, or else you have someone else paying all your bills. This is a Real question many of us sporthorse breeders face this year. The same is going on in the thoroughbreds right now. 44,000 TB foals are produced each year and there are no buyers except for a few of the really well bred ones--not for all the really well bred ones, but just for a few. And the prices are down. So you can't even presume that if you have the best bred mare with the most in demand blood lines, and breed her to the #1 stallion this year [whoever that is, and everybody has their own opinion on that one] that she will get pregnant easily and cheaply, carry the foal to term, produce a healthy foal with correct conformation and lots of presence--and then it will sell for about half of what it sold for a couple years ago, because even the top prices are down. There are fewer buyers, fewer people owning horses, fewer going to horse shows, fewer putting horses in training, etc.

[feather river]

Ah but times are a changing---saw where the stock market is to head up to 9500!!! Wouldn't that change your opinion on breeding if in fact it did?? Oh maybe you just don't care one way or the other, or are not a breeder!!;)

Don't know where you are getting your stock market advice. must be at the store of wishful thinking. 9500? this year? NOT.

and why would it change your opinion on breeding? Are you telling all of us that this whole lack of spending, and decreased ownership, would all go away when the stock market hits 9500?

[talloaks]

Don't know where you are getting your stock market advice. must be at the store of wishful thinking. 9500? this year? NOT.

and why would it change your opinion on breeding? Are you telling all of us that this whole lack of spending, and decreased ownership, would all go away when the stock market hits 9500?


Yes I must have heard it on the boob tube and wishful thinking channel!!:lol: I really doubt if things will change much at all. If anything, things will probably get worse, since there are no signs that we have bottomed out!! Its really scarey out there and I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel!!:eek: that's why I am having such a difficult decison with whether to breed my two mares or not!!:eek::eek:

[YankeeLawyer]

So you can't even presume that if you have the best bred mare with the most in demand blood lines, and breed her to the #1 stallion this year [whoever that is, and everybody has their own opinion on that one] that she will get pregnant easily and cheaply, carry the foal to term, produce a healthy foal with correct conformation and lots of presence--and then it will sell for about half of what it sold for a couple years ago, because even the top prices are down.

These discussions often presume that breeders typically intend to sell the horses they produce as foals - indeed, that they must do so, or have failed. A lot of breeders, myself included, plan to sell youngsters either as foals or not until under saddle, depending on the circumstances, and think much farther ahead than any 12 or 24 month period. In addition, I have not dropped my prices due to the economy because I have not needed to, but am amenable to working with a buyer whom I believe offers the horse an excellent home, and in some cases will consider part trade or barter arrangements to get a deal done. I have received many inquiries about my foals this year, before even marketing them, in large part from people who saw them at my vet's, where my mares foaled out (or from people who heard about them from those who saw them). I was not anticipating that level of response at all, but the foals this year also exceeded my own expectations.

[YankeeLawyer]

Don't know where you are getting your stock market advice. must be at the store of wishful thinking. 9500? this year? NOT.

and why would it change your opinion on breeding? Are you telling all of us that this whole lack of spending, and decreased ownership, would all go away when the stock market hits 9500?

You left out the part about increased taxes hitting many potential clients.

[SLW]

Saturday I was ordering breeding supplies from a major vendor. The owner was working the phones because all the office staff had been sick with the flu. We jabber jawed and he said his sales are down 30% this year. That is about in line with what we see at the clinic. Our backyard mare owners are not breeding this year. The stallions are still being collected but not as much.

[feather river]

You left out the part about increased taxes hitting many potential clients.

where are the increased taxes on all those stock market losses? you must be in a state like California where they have bumped up just about every state tax imaginable because the state is going broke because people aren't spending. So with all the increased sales tax, etc. people will continue to spend less, so they will have to raise the sales tax rate again on the ever declining sales, and on and on until only the very wealthy will be paying any taxes as only they will have the last drop of income!

[feather river]

Yes I must have heard it on the boob tube and wishful thinking channel!!:lol: I really doubt if things will change much at all. If anything, things will probably get worse, since there are no signs that we have bottomed out!! Its really scarey out there and I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel!!:eek: that's why I am having such a difficult decison with whether to breed my two mares or not!!:eek::eek:

Amen to that. lots of us are just right there. I am sure there were quite a few buggy builders who felt just like this as the automobiles were just coming into their own. Hard to tell where the market for sporthorses will be 5 years out, and in my opinion, that is where you are breeding towards. It will just be coming a 4 year old then and who knows what the market will be then. Sure, the horse industry will still be around and it will be a great sport for many of us still--but all the shows have felt sizable drops in entries this year. Is that permanent? I don't know. No one does anymore.

[Oakstable]

My vehicle died and I decided not to put any more money into repairs.

I bought a used certified 2004 Honda with a bumper to bumper warranty.

The finance guy told me that their business had dropped 60% but was coming back now.

[YankeeLawyer]

where are the increased taxes on all those stock market losses? you must be in a state like California where they have bumped up just about every state tax imaginable because the state is going broke because people aren't spending. So with all the increased sales tax, etc. people will continue to spend less, so they will have to raise the sales tax rate again on the ever declining sales, and on and on until only the very wealthy will be paying any taxes as only they will have the last drop of income!

I actually was referring to the increase in federal taxes targeting those in the very top brackets, coupled with the proposed disallowances of various deductions and increase in the capital gains rate that collectively will slam those that are subject to these changes. But increased state taxes do not help, either. I think even more devastating is the fact that many who viewed their jobs as relatively secure are now fearful of layoffs, and if laid off, there are not a lot of other opportunities out there. So a number of people who would spend are stockpiling cash instead.

This is OT, but I noticed from other posts that you bred Isaiah, the stallion? Very nice horse, btw.

[YankeeLawyer]

Hard to tell where the market for sporthorses will be 5 years out, and in my opinion, that is where you are breeding towards.

ABSOLUTELY, yes. That is what people should be focusing on.

[feather river]

This is OT, but I noticed from other posts that you bred Isaiah, the stallion? Very nice horse, btw.[/QUOTE]

yes, that's me. thank you. I am proud of that breeding and selection of lines. I really like the Anglo Arab mixed into the German bloodlines. But it is like cooking, it depends not just on the ingredients but in what order you put them in. And by the way I think his owner did a lot to bring him along. I cannot take all the credit.

[YankeeLawyer]

yes, that's me. thank you. I am proud of that breeding and selection of lines. I really like the Anglo Arab mixed into the German bloodlines. But it is like cooking, it depends not just on the ingredients but in what order you put them in. And by the way I think his owner did a lot to bring him along. I cannot take all the credit.

Well he is really nice, congratulations, and congratulations on finding a good match for him.

[retrofit]

You must be new to the current economic issues, or else you have someone else paying all your bills.

Feather,
If you could manage to make your points without resorting to personal insults, they might carry more weight. As I said in my 2nd post on this thread, I'm willing to listen to other points and I'm willing to stand corrected. I'm just not willing to tolerate insults. You have nothing to base those ASSumptions on, and you couldn't be more wrong.

[camohn]

I am not breeding unless something sells first this year. I did not breed anything last year either so no foals here in 09 or 10. I plan to test breed our colt at 3 next year....so unless someone sells the next foals here will be the crop of '11.

[talloaks]

Well the stock market went up a bit yesterday, wonder if it will keep going up or plunge again. If I could only sell my hunter/jumper I would jump ahead with my breeding--but I guess I need to find places to advertise him, any ideas for online ads??

[feather river]

Feather,
If you could manage to make your points without resorting to personal insults, they might carry more weight. As I said in my 2nd post on this thread, I'm willing to listen to other points and I'm willing to stand corrected. I'm just not willing to tolerate insults. You have nothing to base those ASSumptions on, and you couldn't be more wrong.

slow down retro--way too tight a fit here. we are just discussing the economy of breeding, not euthanasia. And watch the hidden language--not attractive on you. psst--lighten up a bit.:):winkgrin:

[ljshorses]

Well I have a son working in the stock market field and he says things are showing improvement and in fact, my stocks went way up recently. They had been steadily going down before that. Don't know if this increase will continue or not. No one as a crystal ball. I am breeding the same number this year (8) as last year. I sold all but one I bred last year, although I did buy one back when the new owner fell on hard times. I already sold one in-utero this year and have prospective sales on two 2009 babies (have 6 warmbloods and warmblood crosses on the ground this year). I haven't seen any decrease in inquiries, but then I really work with the buyers and do give incentives to show homes and offer payment schedules. I also price very reasonably, makes for a smaller profit but a profit is a profit. I am very careful what bloodlines I choose and the stallion MUST be a good fit with my mare not just the flavor of the month. I have mares that have produced many Premium offspring. Many of my mares have had a sport career themselves.

My theory is, the more breeders decide not to breed leaves more prospective buyers for those who continue on. Supply and demand as always. I believe you have to do what works best for your particular business situation. If mine don't end up selling this year then I am prepared to keep them until under saddle, but I then would breed less next year. Flexibility should be a part of any good business plan. Superior stock will always have a market but the market will be smaller in bad economic times. Horses are a luxury item but they also are living, breathing things that people become very attached to. I think those that could afford many luxuries in the past will give up the sport cars and boats before they give up their passion for horses.

I'm not sticking my head in the sand but I am not going to stop being optimistic. If more people would be hopeful we would see change faster. Our country needs spending for our government to work, but when people fear the state of the economy spending freezes. This in turn slows or halts economic healing. Now is the time to spend but spend more intelligently. I am very careful where every dollar goes now and in a way the problems we are having now has made me better with all my finances, not just where the horses are concerned. I do believe also that the "backyard" breeder with no true business goals may becoming extinct, but that may not be a bad thing. Good quality horses (not just upper level prospects) will always be sought after to some degree, but horses with mismatched parts, health issues etc...will unfortunately end up in worse places than they use to. At least this may make people think before breeding that nice mare that never could be ridden or that never could stay sound.

[YankeeLawyer]

Well, my Hohenstein mare checked in foal today, so knock wood that is one on the way for 2010.

[ljshorses]

Well, my Hohenstein mare checked in foal today, so knock wood that is one on the way for 2010.

Love Hohenstein, who is she bred to?

[YankeeLawyer]

Love Hohenstein, who is she bred to?

Stedinger : ). We are trying for another one like her colt this year by him.

[ljshorses]

Stedinger : ). We are trying for another one like her colt this year by him.

Very nice, best of luck.

[DownYonder]

Our country needs spending for our government to work, but when people fear the state of the economy spending freezes. This in turn slows or halts economic healing. Now is the time to spend but spend more intelligently.

To answer the OP's question, yes, I know a lot of people that have either quit breeding completely or are cutting WAY back.

OTOH, the above quote is it in a nutshell. When people cut way back on spending, the economy gets more and more sluggish, which obviously just delays the recovery. People that are still in a position to spend need to do it, but they have to be more careful than in the past - i.e., no more credit card debt, no more homes out of their price range, no more expensive vacations, no more luxury items (including high end vehicles, boats, jewelry, horses and horse related expenditures, etc).

[TrueColours]

I am breeding both Puchi Trap and Pearlescent back this year, both to my stallion - Guaranteed Gold. There appears to be a consistent, strong demand for those foals

I also made the decision (or perhaps I should say the decision was MADE for me yesterday :lol:, to breed another one of my mares to Redwine! :D) so while I was happy with breeding 2 for 2010 foals, I am now ecstatic that I will hopefully have 3 on the way instead! :)

Now ... just to wait for that first big black dot to show up ... :D

[LEN]

The economy is as bad as the Democrats and obama want you to believe. The interstates are full of trucks the parking areas are overloaded with trucks. These trucks are delievering goods. Someone is buying and someone is manufacturing. I have been to Horse expos, Horse shows and people are lined up at the barn builders to get est. on new barns and arenas. I sell, service and install Automatic Fly control systems and I'm bussy. I have had a lot of intrest and have sold some alrady this season and it has just started. I am currently set up at Old Salem Farm in North Salem NY. Its one of the biggest jumper Shows in the East. Lots of horses, Maybe over 2,000 for the one week show. Anybody that is sombody is there. I wasn't even set up yesterday and had three inquires, two of which are sold. Average barns, 20 stalls. There is interest in horses, good horses and if you have quality it sells. No different than my Fly control systems. I have the best, I sell the best and I service them. For almost 30 years. If I didn't sell and service with quality, then I wouldn't be in it for almost 30 yrs. The same with breeding. Good quality horses have always sold well. Foals born now will sell later even at a better republican economy. Ha ha. My wife Sandys Nursemre service is overwhelmed with calls. Its almost every day she has calls comeing in looking for Nursemares. I have been wanting to put a steak on the grill for almost 2 1/2 weeks. Sandy is on the road and never home to eat with me. I won't make a steak dinner just for me. My eyes are always bigger than my stomach and I make to much. Well anyway if your in dought, don't breed, but if your in the business I think you will sell.

[Edgar]

I can add a positive view also as our stallions are busy across the board, started getting busy earlier in the season than normal and we have bred 25% more mares compared to last year this time. It is encouraging to see people active, planning, breeding and coming out to buy stuff like Len posted. Consumer index is up, stock market seems to be going better, maybe we are holding ground and ready to push our equinomy forward again...

[feather river]

I can add a positive view also as our stallions are busy across the board, started getting busy earlier in the season than normal and we have bred 25% more mares compared to last year this time. It is encouraging to see people active, planning, breeding and coming out to buy stuff like Len posted. Consumer index is up, stock market seems to be going better, maybe we are holding ground and ready to push our equinomy forward again...

well the show business is way off. Wellington was down in numbers this year. Ocala was off over 25%, Thermal and Tucson down close to 40%. Haven't heard numbers from show mgmt of Gulfport. Quite afew shows are closing this summer where there may be a few too many in one particular geographic area, or dropping down in their costs to try and hang onto as many exhibitors as they can.

I think last year was not even felt in the horse industry. You are seeing it this year as their is always a one year lag. As far as breeding is concerned some will breed just because they do. Not motivated economically. And those of us who have solid jobs/incomes and aren't over our heads in debt are actually much better off in this kind of an economy because there are so many deals out there. Lots of stallion owners are giving deals this season, and not all are advertised. I know first hand that is going on in both the warmblood and the TB business--can't speak to the QH crowd, but doubt they are much different. They've got all the overhead and need to just get through to better times, so they are dealing if you just ask.

[ljshorses]

well the show business is way off. Wellington was down in numbers this year. Ocala was off over 25%, Thermal and Tucson down close to 40%. Haven't heard numbers from show mgmt of Gulfport. Quite afew shows are closing this summer where there may be a few too many in one particular geographic area, or dropping down in their costs to try and hang onto as many exhibitors as they can.

I think last year was not even felt in the horse industry. You are seeing it this year as their is always a one year lag. As far as breeding is concerned some will breed just because they do. Not motivated economically. And those of us who have solid jobs/incomes and aren't over our heads in debt are actually much better off in this kind of an economy because there are so many deals out there. Lots of stallion owners are giving deals this season, and not all are advertised. I know first hand that is going on in both the warmblood and the TB business--can't speak to the QH crowd, but doubt they are much different. They've got all the overhead and need to just get through to better times, so they are dealing if you just ask.

I believe many shows are down in numbers but heck showing aginst 12 others instead of 20 to me is better. The delays of shows that were way overbooked in previous years was horrible. Trying to get stalls were sometimes impossible. Sometimes these shows were going several hours past their projected time schedules. Maybe people are just being more realistic now and are more careful what shows they will attend. This may cut out smaller unrated shows but I don't see the really big shows doing that. I just heard from a friend today that is showing at Devon this month and she is in the pony 2009 class. The numbers were UP this year at least for that class. She wasn't happy, she expected at least a third less entries I think. Wellington and Ocala are shows that typically are attended by many people from the east wanting to show where it's warm in the winter. Their numbers could be down because of high costs in traveling so far and setting up a temporary stable for a month or so. But the shows that are within a couple hours away from the majority that normally attend will probably not notice as much a drop off.

Now however, due to many not breeding last year and this, we will most likely see a drop off in breed show attendance, but that would be because their just won't be as many horses out there to show. Again, that may not be a terrible thing. DAD last year may have had less numbers but it was still booming. I had a class with 20 some in it, that to me is still a big number of attendees.

I am breeding and I am motivated economically. I just don't yet see too much to tell me not to continue. I could be wrong and if I am, I definitely will then change my breeding plan.

[feather river]

I believe many shows are down in numbers but heck showing aginst 12 others instead of 20 to me is better. The delays of shows that were way overbooked in previous years was horrible. Trying to get stalls were sometimes impossible. Sometimes these shows were going several hours past their projected time schedules. Maybe people are just being more realistic now and are more careful what shows they will attend. This may cut out smaller unrated shows but I don't see the really big shows doing that. I just heard from a friend today that is showing at Devon this month and she is in the pony 2009 class. The numbers were UP this year at least for that class. She wasn't happy, she expected at least a third less entries I think. Wellington and Ocala are shows that typically are attended by many people from the east wanting to show where it's warm in the winter. Their numbers could be down because of high costs in traveling so far and setting up a temporary stable for a month or so. But the shows that are within a couple hours away from the majority that normally attend will probably not notice as much a drop off.

Now however, due to many not breeding last year and this, we will most likely see a drop off in breed show attendance, but that would be because their just won't be as many horses out there to show. Again, that may not be a terrible thing. DAD last year may have had less numbers but it was still booming. I had a class with 20 some in it, that to me is still a big number of attendees.

I am breeding and I am motivated economically. I just don't yet see too much to tell me not to continue. I could be wrong and if I am, I definitely will then change my breeding plan.

some really good thoughts for all of use here.:)

[Edgar]

"well the show business is way off. Wellington was down in numbers this year. Ocala was off over 25%, Thermal and Tucson down close to 40%."

Yes, undeniable, but those shows are all behind us and a few months have made a difference in general attitude. I think a lot of people were in shock at the end of the year and are slowly coming out of their frozen mode...

[LEN]

I'm up here in NY and Old Salem Farm has more tents with stalls than nornal. Its a Show Jumper show and the big guns are here. Mclain ward is there and others. It looks crowded but then I'm not there all day. I have customers to care for in the area. I have to get their Fly Control Systems up and going befor the flies start showing up. My first day there was good. There is interest.I was only at the tailer 2 hrs. and I had 4 interested people ask for quotes. I had 2 more leave their fax numbers so I can send them quotes. Like I said befor, the economy is what it is, not as bad as some want you to believe.

[grayfox]

I agree with Edgar. I'm pretty new to the stallions but I'm really, really busy. Also, babies are selling well. I think the economy is turning around because to breed and buy babies people must feel optimistic. I went to a show a couple weeks ago and it was busy.

[3Dogs]

As someone who likes to bring up babies, I am not going to buy foals anymore. I will wait - too many iffs with the foals - and frankly, for the hunter market, it is a total crap shoot - I want the perfomance guys and gals, so I will be looking at older crops now. I am too weeny to want to go my own breed route - one bad foaling and I would be a basket case. For my particular situation, looking at a two to three year olds is far more attractive. Thus those farms who have committed to foal raising, whoopee! At the end of the day, I have a better idea of what I might have and frankly, dollar wise, I end up in the same place but with a better picture of the potential talent. JMHO

[avadog]

As someone who likes to bring up babies, I am not going to buy foals anymore. I will wait - too many iffs with the foals - and frankly, for the hunter market, it is a total crap shoot - I want the perfomance guys and gals, so I will be looking at older crops now. I am too weeny to want to go my own breed route - one bad foaling and I would be a basket case. For my particular situation, looking at a two to three year olds is far more attractive. Thus those farms who have committed to foal raising, whoopee! At the end of the day, I have a better idea of what I might have and frankly, dollar wise, I end up in the same place but with a better picture of the potential talent. JMHO

That's too bad your disappointed with your babies. I would think you could sell them if they aren't going to make nice hunters and you had the fun of watching them grow up. Maybe they will be nice dressage horses or jumpers.

[3Dogs]

I love my babies - I have three. But the cost for me is huge - I don't own a farm - and judging a foal as a prospect for the hunter ring is really not anywhere near an exact science. Can't depend on years of bloodlines nor any data that is reliable. I have been in the H/J world since I was a wee babe. If I COULD buy based on proven, show produce, I would. Just don't have the data to support such an enterprise and every uber hunter I inquire about has a mishigosh of lines (if the KNOW them :D). So at this point, I have my preferences, but until they are old enough to move as an adult might move and I can really judge temperment and ability over a fence (and trust me, I don't use just a jump chute to get an idea but it helps) it is tough for me now to justify the cost of waiting and hoping with a babe. I don't show on the line, so I have different goals.

Point: the trainer I am with now bought a scraggly 5 year old from a local breeder. He saw something. No other sibs - full sibs - had any talent (for the hunters). Trak/holsteiner cross. Nothing in the lines suggest hunters. But this one? OMG -

cost: $9,000. Right now, he is the fanciest thing I have seen for a while.

So trainer could vet him and know what he got ( babes - oh my, how they can hurt themselves), and he knew how he really moved and how he really jumped. Is this an unusual story? Probably. But given the cost of the years between foal and 2-3 year old - again, just for me, that is a better investment as I look back. Again, talking hunters here.

[YankeeLawyer]

I love my babies - I have three. But the cost for me is huge - I don't own a farm - and judging a foal as a prospect for the hunter ring is really not anywhere near an exact science. Can't depend on years of bloodlines nor any data that is reliable. I have been in the H/J world since I was a wee babe. If I COULD buy based on proven, show produce, I would. Just don't have the data to support such an enterprise and every uber hunter I inquire about has a mishigosh of lines (if the KNOW them :D). So at this point, I have my preferences, but until they are old enough to move as an adult might move and I can really judge temperment and ability over a fence (and trust me, I don't use just a jump chute to get an idea but it helps) it is tough for me now to justify the cost of waiting and hoping with a babe. I don't show on the line, so I have different goals.

Point: the trainer I am with now bought a scraggly 5 year old from a local breeder. He saw something. No other sibs - full sibs - had any talent (for the hunters). Trak/holsteiner cross. Nothing in the lines suggest hunters. But this one? OMG -

cost: $9,000. Right now, he is the fanciest thing I have seen for a while.

So trainer could vet him and know what he got ( babes - oh my, how they can hurt themselves), and he knew how he really moved and how he really jumped. Is this an unusual story? Probably. But given the cost of the years between foal and 2-3 year old - again, just for me, that is a better investment as I look back. Again, talking hunters here.

I am a former H/J rider so I can't say I completely disagree with you for hunters (though the one foal I bought as a hunter prospect did end up BYH at Devon and went on to a successful career on the A circuit). But there is not a single horse in my barn that I have had since foal age that I could buy at 3+ and started, even factoring in the costs to raise and train them. These are not insignificant costs, to be sure, but I buy top of the market foals with the expectation (okay, hope and prayer) that they have the aptitude to put them well into 5 or low six figures once started. I bought a Florencio x Jazz foal in Virginia that is one of the best movers I have ever seen; now at 2, I doubt there is any price that could pry her away from me. The only reason her breeder was willing to part with her is that she has an equally spectacular filly that is a year older, also by Florencio, that she is keeping. My filly's older 1/2 brother (same dam), won the 4 year old FEI championships two years ago. This breeder has his full younger sib, also outstanding. And I was very blessed this year to have two really special foals (Stedinger x Hohenstein and Rousseau x Sandro Hit) that I fully expect to follow in the hoofsteps of their relatives.

And price aside, there is value in being able to ensure the horse is raised, trained, and fed correctly, and is without issues.

[feather river]

Yes, undeniable, but those shows are all behind us and a few months have made a difference in general attitude. I think a lot of people were in shock at the end of the year and are slowly coming out of their frozen mode...[/QUOTE]

Wellington has just ended, and they are all going back up north now. We will know when the June shows are going. HITS in Saugerties is lowering much of their charges just to try to help keep the trainers and their customers in the game. We will know by mid-summer. More people are doing local shows than the bigger shows--costs are less. And people are staying closer to home--again for the costs.

California is the same way. The northern Californians are not really going to Southern Calif. to show much. They are staying in their own regions--much less expensive. And folks in Southern Calif. are dropping down to the County shows. Everyone is cutting costs this year.

There are deals to be had on breedings, so shop around. The stallion owners need to keep their books at least partially filled, so they are cutting prices. The ones I feel sorry for are the ones who own just one stallion who even in a good year only gets a dozen mares. They will be hurting in this economy. Way too many 'normal' stallions in these stallion books--every registry included. If you do decide to breed, don't just settle for a normal one. Pick a good one and negotiate down to that 'normal' price.:yes:

[talloaks]

IPoint: the trainer I am with now bought a scraggly 5 year old from a local breeder. He saw something. No other sibs - full sibs - had any talent (for the hunters). Trak/holsteiner cross. Nothing in the lines suggest hunters. But this one? OMG -

cost: $9,000. Right now, he is the fanciest thing I have seen for a while.

So trainer could vet him and know what he got ( babes - oh my, how they can hurt themselves), and he knew how he really moved and how he really jumped. Is this an unusual story? Probably. But given the cost of the years between foal and 2-3 year old - again, just for me, that is a better investment as I look back. Again, talking hunters here.



Boy, your example right there of a 5 year old selling for 9K is one big reason not to breed!!! Can you imagine the money lost on that breeding???:eek::eek::eek:

[Edgar]

"Pick a good one and negotiate down to that 'normal' price"

Yeah, squeez those stallion owners ;)

"5 year old selling for 9K is one big reason not to breed!!!

How long do you think you can find many great ones like that??? By the time any mare bred today has produced that 5 yr old I think we will have moved on to better times.

[sixpoundfarm]

"Pick a good one and negotiate down to that 'normal' price"

Yeah, squeez those stallion owners ;)


Some stallions are a good value at the prices they are at, some, not so much. I guess its similar to the housing issue, readjusting itself.

The trickle down squeeze effect from everyone wanting the best price for foals/adult horses effects everyone. I think MO"s have to shop smart and trim the fat where they can.

[ljshorses]

I have found that good stallion owners like good mares. If you have a mare that really compliments the stallion then stallion owners definitely will work with you. I see no reason for them to drop their prices for sub par mares though. This alone will begin to eliminate the backyard breeder with no reall business focus. I work hard at matching the RIGHT stallion with the RIGHT mare. I have been offered fantastic deals to breed my mares to "X" stallion, but if it's not a good match I won't breed just to save money.

Edgar and Jill are good examples of stallion owners doing everything right in this economy. They promote their stallions, keeping their worth up, which helps the mare owners be able to sell the offspring. They offer super incentives to quality mares and are super easy to work with. They keep costs down on shipping and collecting (those little somewhat hidden costs can be exhuberent and many stallion owners pad there so even though stud fee not bad you can be out a lot of money on these fees) and makes the mare owner feel relaxed and comfortable with the whole process. I can tell you horror stories from my experience with not so good stallion owners. There are other great stallion owners that I've dealt with as well and I have been happy to do business with them too. My point is, this economy will allow the cream to rise to the top. It will be the smart business person to stay afloat. Will I be one, don't know, maybe not. But I feel if I can't swim and start to sink then it's time to get out. Only time will tell and being the mare owner, you better bet, I will be dealing with only those stallion owners that help me stay in business.