First Level do I rise or sit the trot?

[monty]

I was reading my Dressage Today and Hilda Gurney brought up the differences between Training and First and Second Level etc. She mentioned the big difference between Training and First Level is that First Level you have to sit the trot. Now there are points on the test that say sitting trot and there are points on the test that say rising trot. But sometimes it just says working trot. First Level test one says enter working trot halt, salute, proceed working trot. So does this mean that you should be sitting or can you rise?
And if you are doing Training Level when it says working trot do you rise or sit?
I am confused!

[joiedevie99]

At first level, you must sit unless the specific movement in the test tells you to post.

[merrygoround]

Usually the only rising trot in First would be lengthening or stretchy circle.

At training it's optional.

[Janet]

At First Level, the top of the actual test sheet says
"All trot sitting unless stated otherwise"

At Trianing Level, the top of the actual test says
"All trot work may be ridden sitting or rising unless stated"

[Dressage Art]

Sitting at 1st level is the biggest hold up for many riders. I wish USEF would pass the rule that you can post at 1st level. There are many riders who can ride a good 1st level test posting, but can't control their bodies YET at sitting trot thru the whole test.

[monty]

why is it sitting for the whole test? is there a point like to make it harder to move up?

[monty]

At First Level, the top of the actual test sheet says
"All trot sitting unless stated otherwise"

At Trianing Level, the top of the actual test says
"All trot work may be ridden sitting or rising unless stated"

Thanks!
I printed off of USEF site and it says nothing about sittting. Only at times it says sitting or rising during the test.

[Ambrey]

Sitting the trot effectively is important as you move further along in lateral movements and collection, as you'll need to be using your seat and leg in all stages of the gait (at least, that's my observation).

I'm also facing that big hurdle between TL and 1st, and it IS daunting, but I've also experienced situations trying to school 1st level movements in the rising trot that bring home why it's necessary to learn to sit well.

[Dressage Art]

why is it sitting for the whole test? is there a point like to make it harder to move up?I don't know. I see no point in sitting at the 1st level. Sitting a trot is only needed when there are lateral movements, lots of changes of directions and collection that rider needs to affect with her close to the horse seat. 1st level there is only Leg Yields that can be ridden while posting as well.

May be at some point sitting at 1st level will be optional. I think it'll be better for our horses.

[chancellor2]

Thanks!
I printed off of USEF site and it says nothing about sittting. Only at times it says sitting or rising during the test.

You need to get the actual test sheets not just the movements. The actual test sheets say exactly what Janet said.

[Janet]

Different perspective. My understanding of the requirement for sitting is that it is related to the HORSE, not the rider.

"FIRST LEVEL. To confirm that the horse, in addition to the requirements of Training Level, has
developed thrust (pushing power) and achieved a degree of balance and throughness."

One of the ways to demonstrate that the horse has developed "a degree of throughness" is that the horse can maintain its balance and rhythm in the sitting trot.

As a RIDER, I have not problem at all sitting the trot on an experienced horse. But when I am riding a green horse, I post until the HORSE is "ready" for sitting trot.

If the HORSE isn't ready for sitting trot, the HORSE isn't ready for First Level.

Therefor I think that changing the "sitting trot" requirement for First Level would be a bad idea.

Remember, the progression of the levels is defined in terms of the HORSE, not the RIDER.

[Ambrey]

I don't know. I see no point in sitting at the 1st level. Sitting a trot is only needed when there are lateral movements, lots of changes of directions and collection that rider needs to affect with her close to the horse seat. 1st level there is only Leg Yields that can be ridden while posting as well.


Oh, I thought there was SI at 1st level... but you're right, SI isn't until 2nd level is it?

In that case, I agree with you. Unless it's just to demonstrate that the horse is developing the carrying power in the trot?

[Janet]

You need to get the actual test sheets not just the movements. The actual test sheets say exactly what Janet said.
The actual test sheets are also available on the USEF web site, but you need to log on with your USEF number.

[Janet]

In that case, I agree with you. Unless it's just to demonstrate that the horse is developing the carrying power in the trot?

YES! Yes! Yes!

The levels are defined in terms of the HORSE'S development, not the RIDER'S

[Dressage Art]

If the HORSE isn't ready for sitting trot, the HORSE isn't ready for First Level.
Really? So you will not do any 1st level exercise posting unless your horse can take your sitting trot? You don’t think that horse can have a thrusting power developed while rider is posting?

PS: "carrying power" is not required at 1st level. That would be at 2nd level.

[Maya01]

You're confused with the definition of 'Working Trot'. A working trot is just a forward going, balanced, supple trot. A bit more energetic than your average trot and has nothing to do with the rider

In First Level you are required to sit the trot unless the test states otherwise. You may sit or rise in Training level. :D

[Mary in Area 1]

I REALLY think it depends on the horse. Even when he is through and over his back, my horse is a HUGE mover and hard to sit, esp. at the lengthenings. I have successfully shown 4th Level, so I can sit the trot. Nonetheless, it is definitely to my horse's benefit for me to post the trot in the 1st level lengthenings.

[SillyHorse]

Really? So you will not do any 1st level exercise posting unless your horse can take your sitting trot? You don’t think that horse can have a thrusting power developed while rider is posting?

PS: "carrying power" is not required at 1st level. That would be at 2nd level.
If the horse isn't ready for sitting trot, it's not ready to be TESTED at 1st level. I do lots of 3rd and 4th level exercises with my horse, but he's certainly not ready to be tested at those levels.

[Janet]

Really? So you will not do any 1st level exercise posting unless your horse can take your sitting trot? You don’t think that horse can have a thrusting power developed while rider is posting? Complete non sequitor.

Yes, I do PLENTY of 1st (and 2nd, and even 3rd) level EXERCISES (posting or sitting) before my horse is ready to perform and be judged at First Level.

(Several decades ago I made the mistake if thinking that, becuase my horse was easily doing all the 2nd level movements, he was ready to do a 2nd level test. Boy did the judge rip me a new one!)

Even my Intro Level just-turned-4 yo, who is not yet consistent in his canter transitions, does leg yields at walk and trot..

And I have discovered that the horses I ride (not warmbloods) need to have the beginnings of "collected trot" (as an exercise) before they can demonstrate a good "trot lengthening", even though the lengthening comes first in the test progression.

Yes, the horse can DEVLEOP "thrusting power" while posting. But the "working trot sitting" DEMONSTRATES the "throughness".

Yes, I will post for the First Level lengthenings, where permitted, on most horses.

[Bogey2]

good post Janet.
In the 90's at one point you had to sit the trot in TR 3&4, That was difficult. Sitting the trot at First Level is the only way you are going to really get the use of your back and seat to help with the start of collection. I learned all of this the hard way when I tried to show a horse First Level that was not through his back enough and I had no right being at a show with this horse as I would get him stuck because I was very uneducated on the "why's" of the levels. I too was ripped a new one:lol:
I teach some low level lessons and I have a couple of students making their First Level debut this year because they worked hard on their position, getting the horse through and forward without interfering by not being able to sit the trot. It has given them a great appreciation for influencing the horse with the seat.
I also have a couple of horses who are not built for the work, they do just TR Level and that's ok, I don't try to get students to sit their trots because it is not going to be the trot they need to learn to manage.

[merrygoround]

A good rider can do the lateral work rising trot, why not allow your horse to use his back as much as possible while suppling his body. But that same rider must also be able to do a sitting trot, and use his seat.

The sitting trot can be learned. For some it is more easily learned than others.

[Dressage Art]

And I have discovered that the horses I ride (not warmbloods) need to have the beginnings of "collected trot" (as an exercise) before they can demonstrate a good "trot lengthening", even though the lengthening comes first in the test progression. You have it backwards. First comes thrusting/pushing power and then comes collection.
Collection also comes much latter in the dressage training pyramid, just like in tests. You can't develop collection before thrusting/pushing power. It's all about the hind end and horses develop a pushing power in their hind end first and then this pushing power progresses/develops in to collection. It also about the balance and with pushing power comes a level balance (with the lack of pushing power, the horse is on the forehand) Then this level balance progresses to the uphill balance with the developing more sitting/carrying power in the hind end.

If you can't do lengthening = you don't have a thrusting/pushing power. If you don't have a thrusting power = you don't have collection. You need to have a thrusting power to lengthen and horse's back should be unblocked for lengthening, so the horse can reach with his hind legs under his belly and push himself forward, thus developing more power from behind.

Posting is more beneficial for building thrusting & pushing power since there is less interference with horse's back. Classical masters even teach half steps posting.

There is really no need to torture horses with an unbalanced sitting trot at 1st level. If the whole test will be ridden in posting trot, it will add ease and fluency to the picture and it will not take anything away.

[whitewolfe001]

I totallly understand what the pro-rising folks are saying (let's make it easier on the horse, you can have impulsion while rising, etc.) and there are many very good, valid points, but I see it differently...

The other thread about the cha-chunk (aka jackhammer butt) riders raises the point that there are riders out there showing at levels that are too high for them, when they have not developed their seats.

I don't think it's a good idea to make it easier for people to move up by decreasing the level of difficulty.

I would foresee novice riders thinking, "Gee, I can pretty much almost sit the trot. I guess I'm ready for Second!"

If you're tired of being stuck at Training Level because you can't sit the trot... then do something about it. More practice. Ride without stirrups. Lunge lessons. Fitness training off the horse.

I really didn't like the double bridle being allowed at Third Level. In my opinion all that accomplished was making it easier for certain rider to cram their horses into a frame. What else should we forgo to make it easier for people to feed their ego by moving up when they shouldn't?

[Sabine]

A good rider can do the lateral work rising trot, why not allow your horse to use his back as much as possible while suppling his body. But that same rider must also be able to do a sitting trot, and use his seat.

The sitting trot can be learned. For some it is more easily learned than others.

I cliniced with CArl Hester a couple of times- he would only ride the horse in rising trot.PERIOD. He obviously knew that he could sit the trot and that he didn't need to 'practice ' the sitting trot. But his training was all based on rising trot- we're talking rising trot half passes...developing the totally over the back horse that is light in the bridle, not holding itself in any part of the body and swinging the back like none other...
I learned how to rise the 'advanced trot' as I call it - during his clinics...I realized that the true requirement for a good rider is total body control. Because it is then, that you can really ride the horse freely and not worry about where You are- as your body is this soft, yet tight functioning tool that can balance the horse while holding itself very lightly on the horse. This is how great gaits in talented horses get maintained and developed further, this is how total fluidity becomes a habit for the horse...

I am a great believer in rising trot as a training tool. The tests require the movements to be ridden as stated. The training is in your hands. If you want to create a swingy, fluid trot- rise the trot...trying to force trot or collection before first achieving lightness and total body swing over the back- is completely non-sensical. JMO

[slc2]

I think many if not most dressage instructors teach students to post the trot quite a bit, actually, and to get a feeling for when the horse's back is warmed up enough for sitting trot and when to go back to posting trot. That's a pretty important part of learning dressage.

It is actually quite difficult to do lateral work in the rising trot. Many people find it impossible at a certain stage. The horse has to be to the point where he is doing the lateral work without requiring a lot of pushing and struggling, and he is doing lateral work off of very light bending aids, I think though it is very important to get to that point where one can post and do half pass, shoulder in, haunches in, renvers and earlier on, leg yield.

A person does need to master the sitting trot to do dressage, though. The fact that warming up in posting trot is good for the horse doesn't take away the fact that one still has to learn to sit the trot.

Over time, the horse and rider get so they can sit the trot for longer periods of time. If one avoids it, one doesn't progress, if one overdoes it too early it's bad for the horse's back.

I am all for keeping the sitting trot mandatory at first level. Otherwise people will be whingeing that it should be put off til 4th level, or whatever level they are unlikely of reaching...LOL.

[Bogey2]

Dressage Art, what are you talking about? thrusting/pushing power? You do need a different level of connection/collection (which means the horse IS pushing from behind) before you do a lengthening or an extension. So it is introduced at First Level.
And I would not call sitting the trot torture for the horse unless your seat sucks or you are unfit. Once my 4 year-old is warmed up I might do one trip around the arena of sitting trot.
It varies with horse/rider obviously.

[FriesianX]

If you are effective with your weight aids, you can do lateral work while rising - believe me, my trainer makes me do it all the time! I'd MUCH rather sit (and am one of those who has always felt better sitting the trot). She makes me do half pass, renvers, travers, shoulder in, TRANS between shoulder in and renvers while posting:eek: YUCK!

It may interest people to hear that this very topic is also discussed by the test writing committee (or so I hear from a very good source) and other higher-ups, some believe sitting trot SHOULD be optional at First Level. For the good of the horse and for the good of the rider. Some riders will never be able to sit the trot well, and some could at one point in their lives, but as age or injury changes their bodies, they are now limited to posting. Some of you have bad backs and cant' sit anymore (and some of us know this is in our future!). Allowing posting at First Level gives people a place to go - yeah, yeah, yeah, I know it isn't all about people, but in reality, it IS partly about the rider. And it IS partly about the less skilled rider. And giving people a place to go above Training Level IS good for the horse too!

Like it or not, there are many,many less skilled riders in this sport, and in reality, they PAY for the sport - they fill up our Training Level classes at the shows, they venture into First level. They keep trainers employed, they shop with the sponsors, they buy horses, they are a huge, huge part of our sport. I'm all for allowing posting at First Level - for the good of the horse, for the good of the rider, for the good of the sport:yes:

[Dressage Art]

Dressage Art, what are you talking about? thrusting/pushing power?
It's all clearly written in the "purpose" of the 1st level. This is the essence of each level and it's very beneficial to get familiar with them. If you don't know the "purpose" of the level, you are risking in riding tricks rather than confirming "basics" of that level.

If you don't have tests sheets where you can read "purpose", I'll be glad to paste it for you here latter.

[Dressage Art]

I cliniced with CArl Hester a couple of times- he would only ride the horse in rising trot.PERIOD. YES, YES!!! How lucky you are to have a chance to ride with him. What else did you learn from him?

[Dressage Art]

If you are effective with your weight aids, you can do lateral work while rising - believe me, my trainer makes me do it all the time! I find it easier to keep the even rhythm going in lateral work when I'm posting and so many riders loose the tempo and the rhythm during lateral work. I would think posting will be helpful for that as well.

It may interest people to hear that this very topic is also discussed by the test writing committee (or so I hear from a very good source) and other higher-ups, some believe sitting trot SHOULD be optional at First Level. For the good of the horse and for the good of the rider.
I hope that they will make it optional. There is no need for horses to struggle under riders who bounce all over the place and bang them in the mouth. It will be for the good of the horse.

[slc2]

It would be even better for 'the good of the horse' if they stayed at training level til they tlearned to sit the trot.

[Ambrey]

Is that so? Isn't lateral work good for the long-term conditioning of the horse, and isn't having a judge to tell you whether you're doing it right a good thing?

Just asking.

[Dressage Art]

oh, another positive in posting L. Y. is that it is harder to clamp the outside leg to the horse's side - so by posting rider will create an automatic push/release cycle of aids = which is the correct way to apply aids.

[FriesianX]

oh, another positive in posting L. Y. is that it is harder to clamp the outside leg to the horse's side - so by posting rider will create an automatic push/release cycle of aids = which is the correct way to apply aids.

And less riders are likely to overbend the horse in leg yield when posting. So often at first level, we see the horse who is cranked to the inside and popping the shoulder to the outside in an attempt to LY. In posting trot, it is less likely (yes, it can still happen) to see that.

[Bogey2]

DA, it's also called collection which is what Janet was talking about. And you assume a lot with the clutching comment.....what are you all going to do when you want to show second level? Ask them to change the rules for you then as well. I understand the requirements of the levels and have ridden some of them myself...that is why I think learning to sit the trot and getting the horse through to the collection requirement is very important to moving up the levels. So when do you want to sit the trot or do lateral work sitting?

[Dressage Art]

And less riders are likely to overbend the horse in leg yield when posting. So often at first level, we see the horse who is cranked to the inside and popping the shoulder to the outside in an attempt to LY. In posting trot, it is less likely (yes, it can still happen) to see that.
Absolutely! While sitting it's so easy to create a crooked horse and for rider collapse as well. Resulting in crooked rider and crooked horse doing side-stepping. I just hope that their trainers take time explaining that side-stepping is NOT so important in the L. Y = that the most important is the SAME tempo, EVEN rhythm and CORRECT alignment of horse and rider.

Posting it's a bit harder to have incorrect alignment, since while in the "up" phase of posting rider can re-align herself. While sitting, it's just keep collapsing and keep pushing and clamping...

It really boggles my mind at times to realize how many riders simply do not understand what a L. Y. is… and this is not their fault if they are not riding it correctly,… they simply were not taught what a quality L. Y. is… and many don’t have mirrors so they have to rely on the ground help for the feedback.

[Dressage Art]

DA, it's also called collection which is what Janet was talking about. And you assume a lot with the clutching comment.....what are you all going to do when you want to show second level? Ask them to change the rules for you then as well. I understand the requirements of the levels and have ridden some of them myself...that is why I think learning to sit the trot and getting the horse through to the collection requirement is very important to moving up the levels. So when do you want to sit the trot or do lateral work sitting?

You /Janet claim that you develop collection first and then you develop thrusting power? So it seems that it's you who is asking to change the rules ;)

There NO collection at 1st level. Collection starts at 2nd level. And this thread is about 1st level, right? So we are still talking about 1st level, right?

I'm afraid that we do disagree on the question what comes first: pushing power or collection? And I believe that my position on that is correct and you are mistaken (or there is a simply misunderstanding). I already wrote an extensive answer that I believe that pushing/thrusting power comes first at 1st level = and it needs to be developed first. (You didn’t even know what thrusting/pushing power is?) Collection comes latter at 2nd level. With out pushing power, you can NOT develop collection. It seems that you believe that you can develop collection before developing a pushing and thrusting power? And sitting trot helps you develop it????

There is a clear difference between those two and you can not confuse them or bunch them together as one. It’s the same as saying that shoulder-in is the same as Leg Yield… and unfortunately I did read those statements on COTH and those posters were also trying to convince me that they are correct :lol:

So when do you want to sit the trot or do lateral work sitting?
Work on 2 tracks is different than lateral movements. L. Y. is work on 2 tracks. Shoulder-in, Renvers traverse, Half Pass is lateral movements that do require collection and should be performed on a sitting trot. Work on 2 tracks such as L. Y. doesn't require collection and doesn't need to be performed sitting (IMHO)

[Janet]

I am simply claiming that BEFORE I started working on collection (at home), my trot lengthenings EITHER got the comment "not enough" OR got the comment "falling on forehand".

AFTER I started working on collection at home, my trot lengthenings were "enough" without falling on the forehand.

This is a 3/4 bred TB x QH with VERY powerful hindquarters, and a preference for going on the forehand. (My instructor sometimes refers to her as a "wheelbarrow".)

[eponacelt]

As a RIDER, I have not problem at all sitting the trot on an experienced horse. But when I am riding a green horse, I post until the HORSE is "ready" for sitting trot.



Bingo. Not that I'm a great rider, but I can sit the trot just fine - when the horse is properly through and strong enough for first level work. On most horses, with relatively average movement, sitting the trot shouldn't be so difficult. Sure, it requires some strength, and getting used to the body mechanics, but if your horse's trot is really, truly impossible to sit, then it tells you something about how they are carrying their back.

Of course, there are some really big moving horses whose trots I know I could NEVER sit, but I think for most of us, sitting becomes easier when the horse is really ready for it and using their back.

[Bogey2]

there is a degree of collection at First Level....the expectation for the level of collection changes as you work up the levels right? Have you ridden First 3 or 4? Trust me, if I could not sit the trot and have my horse somewhat collected I am not going to be able to do the required movements. It is obviously not the same collection needed at second level but it is preparing you for second level yes?
So maybe we are calling it two different things but like slc said, you should not move on to First if you are not capable of sitting the trot (which btw is easier when the horse is truly over the back and thrusting those hind legs as you say). But rider fitness and proper seat are key to influencing the horses way of going.

There are some horses that will never get out of training level because they are not built for the work...I own a couple and they very happily carry the rider through the basit TR Level then the rider moves on.
I do agree that the rider can get in the way and jam a horse up at that level...but I also see a lot lovely First Level rides.

so let me ask you again, when would you introduce the sitting trot?

[RogersChapelFarm]

I think the argument about which comes first collection or thrust is because you are exchanging the term collection for engagement. You must first load the hocks(engage) to get the realease.(thrust)


Engagement
Increased flexion of the joints of the hind legs, during its weight-bearing phase. This causes a relative lowering of the quarters/raising of the forehand, thus shifting more of the task of loading-bearing to the hindquarters. A prerequisite for upward thrust/impulsion. Engagement is not flexion of the hocks or "hock action" in which the joints of the hind legs are markedly flexed while the leg is in the air. Nor is engagement merely the length of the step of the hind leg forward toward the horse's girth - that is reach of the hind leg.

[ToN Farm]

Rogers Chapel, I think that what you wrote is incorrect as well. The definition of Engagement is 99.9% correct, but has a semantics issue that is misleading. That is that 'engagement' is prerequisite for THRUST. Engagement is not required for First Level Thrust. Maybe where the words went wrong is when they wrote 'upward thrust'. Upward thrust is Collection. Engagement is a prerequsite for Collection. It is is not upward thrust that is required at First Level, but forward thrust; pushing power.

While Collection is the top of the Training Pyramid, let us keep in mind that the Pyramid parts are interchangeable. You can be working on a little Collection early on, as in playing with some half-steps. I think what Bogey is saying is that to get a good scoring lengthening in First Level, it is a plus to have been working some collection.

FreisianSport, I am so unhappy to hear that they are rethinking taking the sitting trot out of First Level. I hate the the tests are being dumbed down to benefit poor riders. Training and First Level should not be places where novice riders are, but where novice horses are.

I agree with SLC. If you can't sit, stay in Training Level. But really, if you can't sit, you are not a dressage rider.

[FriesianX]

FreisianSport, I am so unhappy to hear that they are rethinking taking the sitting trot out of First Level. I hate the the tests are being dumbed down to benefit poor riders. Training and First Level should not be places where novice riders are, but where novice horses are.

I agree with SLC. If you can't sit, stay in Training Level. But really, if you can't sit, you are not a dressage rider.

I don't think the point is to dumb things down, I think the point is to give people somewhere to go that can't sit. Not ALL riders can't sit because of lack of education and lack of years in the saddle, there are plenty of people who were very capable upper level riders who no longer have the flexibility/ability to sit anymore. And, these are only discussions from some, I'm not sure they will do it or not. But at least SOME are asking the question. I don't think it is a bad thing but I also see the great need to keep our lower level riders engaged in our sport!

[RogersChapelFarm]

ToN Farm Well what I wrote is actually from USDF not from me... it's always up for debate with them of course but I use their definition here and in prep for the L program...it's also shown here

The 2007 USDF rule book defines it as "...Thrust. Releasing of the energy stored by engagement. The energy is transmitted through a back that is free from negative tension and is manifested in the horse's elastic, whole-body movement.[1]


also from J Ashton Moore in USDF Connection

Impulsion is:
Impulsion is thrust. As defined on the FEI
tests in the original French, impulsion is
le desire de se porter en avant—literally
“the desire to carry himself forward.”
Impulsion is the release of the energy stored
in engagement, achieved when the bent
and grounded hind leg is straightened.
“Good impulsion” gives the impression
of upward as well as forward thrust.


So thrust/engagement and impusion are relevant to First Level.

[JackSprats Mom]

There is no need for horses to struggle under riders who bounce all over the place and bang them in the mouth. It will be for the good of the horse.

Surely though, if the rider is bouncing around all over the place they shouldn't be riding first level? Making it easier for people to move up when they're not ready is in no way beneficial to dressage. I agree with whoever said it was dumbing it down.

Not ALL riders can't sit because of lack of education and lack of years in the saddle, there are plenty of people who were very capable upper level riders who no longer have the flexibility/ability to sit anymore

Again, if they don't have the flexibility, irregardless of whether its due to age or skill they shouldn't be riding higher levels.