Lost Papers

[STF]

Is there any way to get papers that were "lost?"
Short story -
Mare switched hands several times, passport was lost somewhere in between.....
Mare is branded (odd brand I have never seen before).
Was a jumper in FL, did some big stuff, but new owner does not have papers and wants to breed her. Not even sure of her originally papered name as jumper ppl can change names alot.
What can be done?

[Dressage-ryder]

Do you have a pic of the brand?

[DownYonder]

What registry? Maybe if you post a pic of the brand, someone can help you figure it out.

[STF]

I shaved it up tonight and once I got it cleaned up and wet it, its a BWP brand. The mare is grey and its hard to tell due to the white/grey mix before I cleaned her up due to the dirt.

[flyinghorse]

You may be able to trace her through her last show name, as USEF keeps records of name changes...unless, of course, they just re-registered her, instead of transfering her.

www.emeraldspringequestrian.com

[goeslikestink]

Is there any way to get papers that were "lost?"
Short story -
Mare switched hands several times, passport was lost somewhere in between.....
Mare is branded (odd brand I have never seen before).
Was a jumper in FL, did some big stuff, but new owner does not have papers and wants to breed her. Not even sure of her originally papered name as jumper ppl can change names alot.
What can be done?

nothing ---- unless you get a dna sample then they cant match the mare to her parents you send that of to the society of her brandinglike here http://belgianwarmblood.com/bwp_whoswho.html

[STF]

You may be able to trace her through her last show name, as USEF keeps records of name changes...unless, of course, they just re-registered her, instead of transfering her.

www.emeraldspringequestrian.com (http://www.emeraldspringequestrian.com)

I already looked it up and found her and the old owner name. Thing is the USEF has her down as a 2004 model with unknown parents. She is not a 2004, she is 14 now. They obviously just got a new USEF # and did not transfer the old one! Grrrr! I hate that, tracking due to this stuff SUCKS!

I found and contacted the old owner on the USEF stuff via email and am waiting for a reply if they can help me with her papers/passport.

I was told her name was never changed and the only BWP stallion that I can find in the USEF database that is a BWP approved or past approved stallion with an offspring named that is, Ironman (and yes, this is a big grey mare), so Im going to contact Nancy and see if any of this rings a bell.

The mares name is Isabella, she was in central Florida for a few yrs (2005-2007) and before that was up north. I was told she did Spruce Meadows and some of the other big shows up north before she went to FL. I dont know much more than that. Grey, almost white, VERY FAT/ROUND mare, no real markings other than the brand.

[STF]

I just went to Nancy website and ummmm, the mare has Ironmans face to a tee!!
Will get some pics and maybe someone would recogize her.

[Christa P]

Can you get her wet and VERY clean. This way you might find some hidden white markings by looking for areas of pink skin.

Christa

Who has a gray that HAD tiny white socks behind, but unless he is wet and clean they are invisible.

[risingstarfarm]

Ironman can't have a 14 year old BWP branded daughter. He has only been approved for breeding with the BWP for 5 years.

Was the mare imported?

[STF]

I can try.
I know she is branded BWP and it was an "I" year (unless they changed her name), if she is a "I" BWP year which would make her VERY old..... late 20's and she is not that old.
Ughghgh!
I hate the HJ world who dont "care about papers or selling with them" just for this reason!! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!

[STF]

Ironman can't have a 14 year old BWP branded daughter. He has only been approved for breeding with the BWP for 5 years.

Was the mare imported?


I dont know!? Im frustrated.
Its def. a BWP brand.
Let me get some pics and see if anyone recongizes her.
Allision De Fagundo owned her at one time in FL and from then on, I cant trace her back on USEF database. I emailed Allision last night to see if she can locate the passport for me, but Im about to pull my hair out. This is a really nice mare and jumps really nice!! She has a injury and needs some time off so the owners want to breed her while she is resting.

[risingstarfarm]

If she is 14, she was born in 1995. That was an S year. So her name has likely been changed.

I would contact Andras and some other breeders from that area (since he shows, he may know more about her).

[Dressage-ryder]

How tall is she? Was she ever doing level 6/7 in FL?

Sent you a PM

[STF]

Emily, that is the same horse. That is the ppl I do the jumper stuff with and where I got her from. She has an injury and needs some time off, so I have her now here at the farm.

She was in FL, I know Laurie Russell, Allision and Dough showed her some and before that I dont know.

Ughhg!

This is why I get so pissy about the database with the USEF stuff. Its almost impossible to track stuff when you need to.

[STF]

If she is 14, she was born in 1995. That was an S year. So her name has likely been changed.

I would contact Andras and some other breeders from that area (since he shows, he may know more about her).


I dont know her exact age, her teeth have very little changes and I would guess about 10-14yrs.

Doug Russell and Laurie had her in training so Im going to try to contact them too too see if Doug forgot to send Col. her papers, etc.

[Dressage-ryder]

Yes, sounds frustrating. Sorry I couldn't help more. Get a pic of that brand.

[risingstarfarm]

If she wasn't imported and you want a starting point - consider Godwin van ten Bosch as a potential sire.

[STF]

Ok here -
sorry about the poor pics, but its so wet/muddy here, I had no where to put her for a decent pic.
IS that a BWP brand?
http://www.spindletopfarm.net/isabella.htm

[risingstarfarm]

it looks like one to me.

[STF]

If she wasn't imported and you want a starting point - consider Godwin van ten Bosch as a potential sire.


I have no way of knowing if she was imported or not? I dont even have a correct name I guess other than a show name.
This is super frustarting.

[DownYonder]

LaNet, are you sure it is BWP? Could it be Sachsen-Anhalt?

[STF]

Chris I thought so when I first lookeda t it, but its not straight lines..... and its not a complete circle and it def. does not have a crown on top. Look at the close up on the pics I took.

[risingstarfarm]

it's BWP - you can see the horse's ears.

[STF]

Is there a way to send in hair for DNA testing, assuming that she was DNA'd back then. When did the BWP start requiring DNA testing for all horses inspected? What year?

[STF]

it's BWP - you can see the horse's ears.


Hu???

[DownYonder]

Chris I thought so when I first lookeda t it, but its not straight lines..... and its not a complete circle and it def. does not have a crown on top. Look at the close up on the pics I took.

Oh, yeah. Sorry, I hadn't see the photos. That is BWP, for sure.

[DownYonder]

Is there a way to send in hair for DNA testing, assuming that she was DNA'd back then. When did the BWP start requiring DNA testing for all horses inspected? What year?

You would need to have some idea who the parents are, and their DNA reports would have be on file, so the lab has something to compare her DNA to.

[STF]

You would need to have some idea who the parents are, and their DNA reports would have be on file, so the lab has something to compare her DNA to.


Ughghghghhghggh!!!!!!

This is why the changing names, no selling with papers, etc pisses me off so bad. For JUST this reason.

[DownYonder]

Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstarfarm
it's BWP - you can see the horse's ears.

Hu???

The BWP brand is formed by horseheads in a circle. The red arrows in this image point to the ears.

[risingstarfarm]

You can see the ears on the horses in the brand.

DNA was not likely collected back when she was inspected in the US. If she was born in the US, she is potentially by Godwin - I was just making a suggestion about a starting point.

You can also have her tested and then send the markers to Belgium in case she was imported.

[STF]

Why do you say she is by Godwin??
How can I find out? Heck, how can I get her REAL name?

Where do I send the info to have her tested? Do hair samples? Please advise, Id love to get a copy of her papers.

I have sent old owners, old trainer and anyone I can find associated with her an email asking for help on her papers, but no anwser back yet.

[STF]

Ok, just got a email back from one of the old trainers and was told they are pretty sure she was imported.
So......... *sigh*

[risingstarfarm]

Thinking about stallions that were available to produce domestic BWP horses, Godwin jumped out at me.

If she's imported, I would definitely pull hair and have it tested at Davis and send the markers to Belgium. It's worth a shot

Contact Cheryll and see if she can send you a kit and/or if she has any recommendations.

[STF]

K, thank you Ronda. You really surpised me here after all that has happened between us. Thank you again.
ELJH

[Fairview Horse Center]

If she is a gray, maybe Nicholas? Of course, her mom may have been the gray.

I would start with a list of approved stallions for the suspected breeding year(s).

[CathyKb]

I think I found her information, if so I am sooooooooo jealous!!!

[risingstarfarm]

If she is a gray, maybe Nicholas? Of course, her mom may have been the gray.

I would start with a list of approved stallions for the suspected breeding year(s).

I didn't think about Nicholas - if the mare is domestic, he also would be a great candidate as sire. He was approved in 1993. Flyinghorse (who has already chimed in on this thread) owned Nicholas and might know more.

[flyinghorse]

I am not sure if any of Nicholas' offspring ended up in Texas, but it is a possibility, I guess there are some just about everywhere. He was DNA tested at some point, so his DNA would be on file.

In 1995, Nick's first crop of foals, Nicholas sired two grey fillies, the rest were bays and chestnuts:

*Saison Vincouer, grey filly with blaze and stockings, and
*Soubrette (2000 5 Year Old Eastern US Young Jumper Champion,) also with a blaze and tall white stockings...and a pink nose...definitely not one of them, though I could see Soubrette as a nice, fat, round thing :-) I believe she is still in the Mid-west, being used for breeding??

The T year, 1996, I am pretty sure all the fillies were solid colored non-grey, except Tallahasee, who is competing in eventing, and was a bit more refined that that mare...I think she still belongs to Laurie Andrews.

In 1997, most of his fillies were grey, and I have lost track of all but one (which was one I bred.)

www.emeraldspringequestrian.com

[risingstarfarm]

A mare with the pedigree that Cathy found is in the database as Phillis van Blumenzwiebel. I think that mare is in Europe, but it's a starting point! Maybe the same breeder?

[STF]

Im not sure 100% yet until I get the papers in or DNA testing, but as far as I can find from talking to ppl and verifying, the mare Cathy found is the same mare as she was even shown by my trainer under the old owners name (before she was bought by client in FL who is connected to the same trainer, the trainer is FL is my trainers son). So its all kind of fits.
Waiting on copies of papers and will send and get a DNA test kit for Cheryl, thanks for everyone help.

[STF]

I got a copy of her papers faxed to me this am.
She is Darco x Graf Gotthard x Rigoletto

Thank you all for the help. And Cathy, you are super sleuth extraordinare!!!!!

[flyinghorse]

Cool! should be areally nice mare and Jumper producer extraordinaire!! Congratulations!

www.emeraldspringequestrian.com

[STF]

Thank you!
Now were trying to figure out who to breed her to.
:)

[DownYonder]

Wow, that is great that you have figured out who she is. Will you be able to get the original papers so her foals will be registerable?

Are you going to breed her for a jumper or hunter? For an amateur or a pro horse? Fresh or frozen semen?

[STF]

We have an idea of where her original papers are now.
We are sure its the same mare and have talked to both owners and confirmed as she only had two owners.
If we cant find them, I will send the request for replacement papers with the BWP, Cheryl Frank emailed me this am and told me how to do it. Its $500 for the papers, but whatever.

As for breeding, she is older and as far as I can tell not had a foal. I have a wonderful ET person here in our area and he is IMO, reasonable and a very high sucess rate for his work -
http://www.zerlottiequine.com/
Breeding a 17yr old MAIDEN mare.......... LMAO! Oh my!!!

As for, her honestly she looks and moves like a hunter, but did do ok in jumpers in the "big rings" in FL, so dunno.

Who knows if she even can take or produce eggs, etc at this point Chris. This poor mare (EXTREAMLY nice bred mare at that) was lost through the cracks of "you cant ride papers" theory. Granted most H/J ppl dont buy papers they buy something that is proven to be rideable and jump, dont care, etc, but.... I dont agree with how they think just for this reason from a production standpoint.

As for a mate, she needs a very light boned, modern type of stallion with a elegant neck and head set. She is a bit short and thick in the neck IMO and she needs to lighten up her up some.

Anyway, will go look for papers next week (dig) and if I cant find them put the wheels in motion with the BWP. Not sure how long that will take thou. At her age, it would be nice to try to get her bred ASAP, but I dont know how many stallion owners would breed her without having the papers on her!?!? May have to try frozen, dunno.


Will keep you updated.

[CathyKb]

Three fresh semen stallions come to mind, would need to see if conformation and bloodlines would suit her.

Romantic Star
Vallado
Edelweiss De Bonce

[Astraled]

17 isn't that bad. I bet it will be easier than you think. :D

[risingstarfarm]

I would recommend taking a look at the bloodlines of the Darco's that are in the hunter ring if she already has a huntery way of going.

For example, Valentino Z's full brother is a hunter - the damsire is Feo (Wendekreis).

Magic Darco has a fabulous record in the hunters: His damsire is Ramiro (Actually, I LOVE the Darco x Ramiro nick).

I also wouldn't hesitate to use a nice TB stallion on her. Darco and Darco sons do such good work with TB mares (esp. if you want to capitalize on her hunter movement).

Check out USEF to see what's worked for hunters before with Darco as a sire.

Congrats on finding such a nice mare!

[STF]

What about Escado II for her?

[risingstarfarm]

If you are brave about Frozen for her - check out Breemeersen's Adorado. His foals are incredibly beautiful and typey. He had a colt from his first crop pass the January stallion inspection in Belgium. STUNNING!

There are several other Acorado sons available - it popped into my head that this might be a nice cross.

[STF]

Would he refine her???

What refining jumper stallions are out there?

[risingstarfarm]

Isn't Raffaelo a refining jumper stallion?

[STF]

Dont know, but I can ask Lisa.

I wish I knew she was easy to breed - this would be a nice cross -
http://www.schockemoehle.com/englisch/s534970.html

[feather river]

Ok here -
sorry about the poor pics, but its so wet/muddy here, I had no where to put her for a decent pic.
IS that a BWP brand?
http://www.spindletopfarm.net/isabella.htm

that is the belgian warmblood brand. but good luck without anything other than that, there is no place to even start. they may allow you to go into one of their pre-books with her if you breed her to an approved belgian warmblood stallion. but the bottom half of the pedigree paper will be blank, and it won't be any good for producing breeding stock should she by chance have a filly. Would take a couple generations to work your way out of that one. but why not take a shot. she looks nice enough. lots of mares out there with papers don't look better.

[feather river]

If you are brave about Frozen for her - check out Breemeersen's Adorado. His foals are incredibly beautiful and typey. He had a colt from his first crop pass the January stallion inspection in Belgium. STUNNING!

There are several other Acorado sons available - it popped into my head that this might be a nice cross.

given you have no info on her--whether she has ever had a foal, got preg easy or anything--bad prospect for a frozen semen breeding. you could get lucky, or most likely spend lots of vet $ with no foal. Find yourself a young approved belgian warmblood stallion with semen known to work.

[STF]

that is the belgian warmblood brand. but good luck without anything other than that, there is no place to even start. they may allow you to go into one of their pre-books with her if you breed her to an approved belgian warmblood stallion. but the bottom half of the pedigree paper will be blank, and it won't be any good for producing breeding stock should she by chance have a filly. Would take a couple generations to work your way out of that one. but why not take a shot. she looks nice enough. lots of mares out there with papers don't look better.


Thank you but we found her import papers.

[flyinghorse]

A few stallions come to mind...Escudo II, though you may not get as much refinement as you think, but super temperament, elastic movement, and athletic as Hadies. Schroeder (Sandro Hit x Escudo cross,) and Coconut Grove xx would probably be a great choice, too. Possibly Nicholas frozen semen, though he doesn't exactly refine, either. Going outside the BWP studbook, but still eligible for BWP foal papers...Landkoenig and Landfriese at Rainbow Equus Meadows...great stallions, great jumper lines :-) Oh, and BWP approved Navarone, with the Jus De Pomme lines would also be very interesting!!!

Good Luck! Sounds like a nicely bred mare...love the Darco lines!

www.emeraldspringequestrian.com

[sfstable]

I also wouldn't hesitate to use a nice TB stallion on her. Darco and Darco sons do such good work with TB mares (esp. if you want to capitalize on her hunter movement).

Coconut Grove xx would probably be a great choice, too.

I would second a vote in for Coconut Grove for this mare. I think it would be a great match.

I saw several of his first offspring at a SF inspection and was very impressed. I would like to breed to him sometime -- just have to find the right mare.

[STF]

Landfriese at Rainbow Equus Meadows

That is a high possibility.
Going to do a breeding exam this week to see how things "look!"

[DownYonder]

I was also going to suggest Landfriese II, or maybe even Escudo II. Or one of the Silver Creek boys like Cathalido or Vallado. Cathalido might be bigger than you want, though (over 17h, I think). From what I understand, they all have really super semen and both Edgar and Barb are great to work with. Good luck with the repro exam!

[feather river]

Thank you but we found her import papers.

so what is the pedigree? you really need that to make any breeding match up decision.

[Carrera]

so what is the pedigree? you really need that to make any breeding match up decision.

It was posted a few pages back... Darco x Graf Gotthard x Rigoletto

[STF]

so what is the pedigree? you really need that to make any breeding match up decision.

I have an AppolossaPaintQHDraft stallion that I have in mind, but it has like 1/16th Trakehker (or Cleveland Bay, cant remember) so that is ok. Its all about size right?
;)

[feather river]

I have an AppolossaPaintQHDraft stallion that I have in mind, but it has like 1/16th Trakehker (or Cleveland Bay, cant remember) so that is ok. Its all about size right?
;)

this is a joke, right? I must have wandered onto Comedy Central without knowing it.:confused:

[Nootka]

I have an AppolossaPaintQHDraft stallion that I have in mind, but it has like 1/16th Trakehker (or Cleveland Bay, cant remember) so that is ok. Its all about size right?
;)

Duh but you didnt post his size so that puts you out of the running all together. So is it the height or the width that is most important? :lol: