Impact of non-dilute parent's base coat "shade" on dilute foal?

[Ibex]

Will the shade of the non-dilute parent of a dilute foal impact the base colour of that foal?

i.e. if you had two chestnut dams, one a coppery chestnut and the other a liver chestnut, bred to the same cremello sire, would the resulting palomino foals likely have base coats like their dams (copper vs liver), or is it that once the modifying gene has been added the base coat "shade" becomes either unimportant or an unknown factor?

Would the same thing hold true in other base coat colours, i.e. a light bay vs a very dark bay?

No intentions of breeding... inquiring minds are just curious!

[JB]

Shade does indeed make a difference with the single dilutes of chestnut and bay. That's why you end up with light buttermilk buckskins vs, on the other end of the spectrum, horses with so much sooty and such a dark shade they are mistaken for dark bays. There are palominos who look like liver chestnuts, and there are the Isabella palis who are seemingly just about white.

You can't breed for those shades though, but your chances are increased in getting a darker pali by having a liver chestnut as one parent, and a cremellow as the other, with the cremello hopefully having at least one darkly-shaded parent as well. For example :)

[TrueColours]

JB - thats what I heard as well but it doesnt seem to be holding true at all ...

My Puchi Trap mare (medium reddish bay) has had 3 buckskin foals. One a light buttermilk buckskin, one so dark you could barely tell it was buckskin and one medium tone. Literally in every one of her foals the markings stay the same but the colour tones differ dramatically within the same colour

I always heard that liver chestnut was closer to bay than chestnut and you *should* get the very dark, golden palomino's out of them, but it doesnt seem to be holding true from what I have seen

I wonder as well since there are variations within the double dilute coats themselves, if the deepness of the tone of the DD matters as well? If you are not only relying on the depth of tone of the non dilute but you also need to look at the depth of the DD coat colour? Does that make sense?

[alliekat]

I have a really nice dark Liver Chestnut mare we can experiment on:D

[Cindy's Warmbloods]

A lady on the east coast that breeds dilutes thought she would get lots of really golden palominos by breeding dark chestnut mares to her cremello stallion. She said it was not the case at all. Instead she has found the really bright red/orange chestnuts are the ones producing most of the dark golden foals. So it doesn't always go as we think

[rideagoldenpony]

I have a palomino stallion, thus have had quite a few palomino foals.

So far..... I can't tell anything about how dark to expect from a given cross. It doesn't seem to make any difference (so far that I've seen) on what shade of chestnut the mare is and what color her palomino foal turns out. :confused:

The only thing I've been able to note is that the more "caramel-y" looking palominos get a lot darker than the paler/butter colored ones.

[JB]

JB - thats what I heard as well but it doesnt seem to be holding true at all ...
As with the passing of Overo markings, the shade of a horse is very much up to chance. All I'm saying is that if you KNOW a parent has a "dark shade" gene, then you have a better chance of the foal having that passed on to him. Zero guarantees. And shading does make a difference in the color of the single dilutes, just as it does with the non-dilutes.

My Puchi Trap mare (medium reddish bay) has had 3 buckskin foals. One a light buttermilk buckskin, one so dark you could barely tell it was buckskin and one medium tone. Literally in every one of her foals the markings stay the same but the colour tones differ dramatically within the same colour
She is obviously prepotent for passing on very, very similar markings. She and GG are obviously a nick that produces a very similar type. That has zero bearing on the shade of their foals. Some stallions (or mares) are prepotent for creating very dark shades, others very light shades. Your combo is not, just like other combos are not predicatable in producing a type or pattern.

I always heard that liver chestnut was closer to bay than chestnut and you *should* get the very dark, golden palomino's out of them, but it doesnt seem to be holding true from what I have seen
Chestnut is chestnut, bay is bay, each have their own shades, which may or may not be the same genes. There are no guarantees that Liver will produce a darker palomino, no guarantee that a dark sooty buckskin will produce a dark sooty pali.

I wonder as well since there are variations within the double dilute coats themselves, if the deepness of the tone of the DD matters as well? If you are not only relying on the depth of tone of the non dilute but you also need to look at the depth of the DD coat colour? Does that make sense?
Since it would seem logical to think that the shade variants of a color are entirely separate from the cream gene, then sure, that can easily account for the slightly varying tones of the double dilutes. And obviously it accounts for the varying tones of the single dilutes. The more dilute something is, the harder it becomes to distinquish between shades. Color and shade are separate. They could conceivably become linked, I would imagine, no way to know unless/until those markers or genes are identified, making some horses reliable producers of certain shades (ie darker chestnuts or bays).

[belambi]

Its really a very good question. Here is an interesting one.. The changes of colour this foal has gone through in her first 3 weeks in incredible..

Here she is at one day old

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNWiK8mSLNY

3 days old

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmfV2bq53dI&feature=fvw


3 weeks old

http://i37.tinypic.com/i25bvc.jpg

I think the chestnut of this type is giving a very deepcolour to the palomino.

[stolensilver]

The shade of the coat of the parents will influence the shade of the offspring with all genes, including cream. What people seem to be forgetting is that the stallion will carry shade genes as well as the dam. However if the stallion is a double dilute the shade of his coat will be difficult to see. This is probably why the siblings to Faux Finish have all been different shades. The stallion is probably carrying the sooty gene in single dose as well as cream in double dose.

For breeding palominos the best colour comes from a cherry red chestnut mare rather than a liver chestnut mare. And the ideal stallion is cherry red chestnut underneath his double dilution.

Ironically the most reliable way to get palomino-like colouring without any smut marks (darker patches of hair) is when the champagne gene acts on a cherry red chestnut coat. This results in a pink skinned palomino and the resulting colour tends to be very clear and true.

[JB]

The shade of the coat of the parents will influence the shade of the offspring with all genes, including cream.

It *can* influence the shade of the foals. They are genetic markers just like everything else, so they get passed on, or not, and if they are a recessive gene, they have to get passed from both parents to show up on the foal

[Faiths CremelloWB]

I have often been asked this question. I have produced 50+ palomino and buckskin foals here on the farm by one cremello stallion. I have had some mares that have been bred 3,4,5 times to him.

And I can tell you it is ALL over the place as to what they produce in shades of palomino and buckskins from the shades of the dams colour. I have one mare who has given me a dark buckskin, a deep gold palomino and a pale palomino. Another mare given me a buttermilk buckskin, a light palomino, a rich golden palomino and a golden palomino with dapples all year long. I have noticed that many of the horses colours change as they mature usually getting darker and richer each spring until they are about three when they stay the same.

The only light palominos (a total of 2) I have had from this sire (Mirabeau) have been from bay mares. All palominos from chestnut mares of different shades have been golden. No foals by him have had the dark sooty spots. The buckskins have been half buttermilk and have dark/sooty.

[Kyzteke]

Will the shade of the non-dilute parent of a dilute foal impact the base colour of that foal?

i.e. if you had two chestnut dams, one a coppery chestnut and the other a liver chestnut, bred to the same cremello sire, would the resulting palomino foals likely have base coats like their dams (copper vs liver), or is it that once the modifying gene has been added the base coat "shade" becomes either unimportant or an unknown factor?

Would the same thing hold true in other base coat colours, i.e. a light bay vs a very dark bay?

No intentions of breeding... inquiring minds are just curious!

I know other dilute breeders have disagreed with this, but in my experience the darker chestnut mares threw darker golden palominos. All of my experience has been with foals by my stallion (a cremello), whose dam was also a pretty rich, dark, golden palie, so that may have something to do with it.

A woman bred her liver chestnut mare to Kinor -- naturally I can't find the photo now, but the foal is VERY dark -- pretty close to a "chocolate" palie. The owner reports the foal, now 20 months old, is "almost brown" in his body.

And ditto on the bay thing -- SOMETIMES. I have two full brothers by Kinor o/o the same dark bay, sooty Arab mare.

Here is one:
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2300504690066919902CQqArl

Here is the other:

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2662507600104425996feBkSN

[FLIPPED HER HALO]

I have a yearling filly who is a buckskin tobiano. Her sire was a perlino tobiano and her dam a solid bay. Most of her patches are buckskin but a few are lighter like a palomino color. Very odd.