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View Full Version : Is the chestnut mare thing a deal-breaker?



nycjumper
Apr. 29, 2009, 04:07 PM
There is a 3 year old that I'm looking at. She would be a resale prospect for the hunters. The pluses - cute mover, nice temperament, nice bloodlines - registered SF . She is just about 16 h but still young so could grow. Her siblings have all been sold to the US and are having some decent careers. I think the price will be right.

The minues - she is a mare. And chestnut. Granted liver chestnut but still.. let's call her what she is.

Would the chestnut mare thing be a deal-breaker for you if you were looking? Again, the theory is that she would be a resale.

amastrike
Apr. 29, 2009, 04:10 PM
It depends. Is she a Thoroughbred?

Oh, my bad, didn't realize what SF stood for. Well, as long as she's not a Thoroughbred, it should be fine ;) .

3eme
Apr. 29, 2009, 04:13 PM
Would not be a deal breaker for me. But then, I am weird and prefer mares, the bitchier the better, and don't care if they are chestnut.

Who is the sire?

nycjumper
Apr. 29, 2009, 04:14 PM
Sire is Milano de Flore.

Punkie
Apr. 29, 2009, 04:22 PM
Sire is Milano de Flore.

We have a chestnut GELDING by him in our barn; one of the sweetest horses I've ever met. If I'm not mistaken, the majority of SFs are chestnut, and I've heard nothing but great things about this line, so I'd say why not! The guy that we have is absolutely gorgeous and super talented...I would not mind having one of his siblings at all!

Justice
Apr. 29, 2009, 04:25 PM
I bought a 2 YO chestnut filly for myself this week, so I'll say no. I have never found chestnuts to be "hotter" than any other color.

billiebob
Apr. 29, 2009, 04:26 PM
If it were a personal horse, absolutely not. I love a good mare, and I really don't give a crap about their color. As a resale project I'd have to think about it. If she's super awesome, I'd probably take her. But mares are, in general, harder to sell than geldings so I'd have to be flexible on the price.

shawneeAcres
Apr. 29, 2009, 04:29 PM
Chestnut mares ARE harder resale horses (mares in general are), but I jsut sold a nice liver chestnut DWB mare for a client and had a good bit of itnerest in her. She did lower the price a bit but that was really more of an economy thing I think. If you get a mare for resale make sure it is 100% sound, no vices, and REALLY good disposition even when is season.

nycjumper
Apr. 29, 2009, 04:31 PM
I don't personally care about a horse's color (in fact - I prefer a chestnut!) but again, I would be looking at her for resale so that is a different set of criteria. I've had several people tell me they wouldn't consider mares when shopping so I know there is a bias out there and the chestnut factor probably makes it worse. Hence my hesitation...

Punkie - is the gelding in your barn an import from here?

BramblewoodAcres
Apr. 29, 2009, 04:34 PM
It's absolutely crazy that people base a horse purchase on COLOR. You don't ride the color, you ride the horse. Just crazy.

eqrider1234
Apr. 29, 2009, 04:34 PM
Liver chesnut is one of my favorite colors, and I actually prefer mares! I think that once your "their human" they will do anything for you, and that is the kind of bond i like to have with my horses.

findeight
Apr. 29, 2009, 04:37 PM
If you get them trained up properly and get them some show miles, nobody cares...even a chestnut TB mare-if it wins-will sell.

Even for resale, proof is in the pudding as they say, get her out there showing as a Hunter, even in this market, they are selling if proven.

If there is no way you can get her to shows, I'd not buy anything for resale. Little to no market for the average, unknown prospect of any breed or color.

johnnysauntie
Apr. 29, 2009, 04:41 PM
FWIW

The sweetest, most docile, quiet, gentle horse I know is a 5 year old chestnut TB mare. She did baby greens last year and didn't twitch an ear. :)

myalter1
Apr. 29, 2009, 04:57 PM
Ok, so the chestnut TB mare thing is a superstition...but i do subscribe to it! It might be a deal breaker for me...but ONLY if i had something comparable that i was looking at that wasn't a chestnut mare...call me shallow and superstitious.

findeight
Apr. 29, 2009, 05:01 PM
The chestnut mare thing is a convenient thing on which to hang blame for all sorts of things.

Sometimes there is actually a bad horse at fault. Most often though, take your pick, bad training, bad riding, the judge does not like chestnut mares. Whatever, niether sex nor color is what the problem is.

But it's popular to blame it.

meupatdoes
Apr. 29, 2009, 05:03 PM
Personally, I think that passing up on a horse because of color or gender (unless you want to breed it and THAT's why it can't be a gelding) is the most ridiculous thing in the world.

Doesn't change the fact that people do it all the time, and it can narrow the market for a horse.

Whether it narrows the market enough to warrant skipping over a nice prospect is another story, and I tend to think no. There are always people who specifically want a mare so they can breed it later, or who just, hey! can ride both sides of the equine population instead of just half, ...and really, if it's NOT HOT and it's demonstrably RIDEABLE, if somebody is going to insist that it's too hot in spite of the horse's empirical and demonstrated performance (this horse? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFigvAnG2Z0) definitely too hot because it's a chestnut mare:rolleyes:) then they probably should stick to carousel horses.

Sebastian
Apr. 29, 2009, 05:09 PM
Pretty IS as pretty DOES.

Seb ;)

Hunter Mom
Apr. 29, 2009, 05:11 PM
Chestnut? Mare? My favorite horse ever was a Chestnut Mare. I certainly wouldn't discount a horse who is good in other ways because of either of those two things.

Hunter Mom
Apr. 29, 2009, 05:13 PM
Liver chestnut is one of my favorite colors, and I actually prefer mares! I think that once your "their human" they will do anything for you, and that is the kind of bond i like to have with my horses.

This is why I L-O-V-E mares. My trainer thought I'd lost it when I told her I'd prefer a mare to a gelding. :eek:

Sebastian
Apr. 29, 2009, 05:15 PM
This is why I L-O-V-E mares. My trainer thought I'd lost it when I told her I'd prefer a mare to a gelding. :eek:

So true. I have 3 mares right now. Am selling 2, but only because of financial reasons...I adore them. And, they're all VERY different personalities.

Seb :)

imapepper
Apr. 29, 2009, 05:16 PM
Personally, I think that passing up on a horse because of color or gender (unless you want to breed it and THAT's why it can't be a gelding) is the most ridiculous thing in the world.

Doesn't change the fact that people do it all the time, and it can narrow the market for a horse.

Whether it narrows the market enough to warrant skipping over a nice prospect is another story, and I tend to think no. There are always people who specifically want a mare so they can breed it later, or who just, hey! can ride both sides of the equine population instead of just half, ...and really, if it's NOT HOT and it's demonstrably RIDEABLE, if somebody is going to insist that it's too hot in spite of the horse's empirical and demonstrated performance (this horse? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFigvAnG2Z0) definitely too hot because it's a chestnut mare:rolleyes:) then they probably should stick to carousel horses.

While I agree with you....couldn't you have picked a better video example for a hunter board? :lol:

And to the OP, if the mare is nice and a good price, I don't see why her color should matter. I don't like grey horses but I own 2 because they can do the job. I also don't love chestnuts....but have owned a chestnut with chrome because he could do the job. He didn't even have a nice personality to make up for his color. But he jumped really cute ;)

Maya01
Apr. 29, 2009, 05:21 PM
My first pony was a Chestnut Mare, she was phenomenal! I used to gallop her around bareback. Good fun having a 13hh pony and no fear of falling off!

I also prefer mares to geldings. Mares seem to think for themselves (much like females in the human variety do ;)) Geldings are a bit dull...especially some of the Warmbloods (please note I am not making a generalization, hence 'some'). The reason why I like to call the gelded warmbloods "Dumbbloods"...fairly suitable :lol:

VirginiaBred
Apr. 29, 2009, 05:34 PM
I think all the talk about an animal being a chestnut and that automatically being a strike against it is so stupid. The continuous drawing attention to it makes it become a *situation* so it's best to quit focusing on an animal's color and instead, promote it as a good sales prospect.

A good horse is never a bad color. Drawing attention to something due to it's color is just wrong.

TSWJB
Apr. 29, 2009, 05:40 PM
chestnut is not my favorite color, but when i was horseshopping my top picks were all chestnut mares.
one i agonized over in manitoba.
3 i almost bought in ontario.
it wasnt the color why i didnt buy them. it was for other reasons. that being said, i ended up with a bay gelding. which personally is my favorite!
but i would buy a chestnut mare if all the other factors were right for me.

lizathenag
Apr. 29, 2009, 05:41 PM
first of all most of my horses have been chestnut and at two were mares

that said,
I believe I read somewhere that the cells that make the hair coat and the cells that make the nervous tissue start out from the same layer at some point in the embryo.

so there could be an explanation for a correlation between behavior and color.

I'm just saying. . .

buck22
Apr. 29, 2009, 05:42 PM
Personally, I think that passing up on a horse because of color or gender (unless you want to breed it and THAT's why it can't be a gelding) is the most ridiculous thing in the world.
well, I love mares but would never consider owing one. Not because of any aversions to 'marishness' or any of that, but because I have a lifer gelding in my keep who is quite studdish and becomes very attached to the ladies, :lol:. Life would quickly become miserable if I introduced a female to my herd, so, as long as I have studly possessive geldings, I can never consider a mare. Just wanted to share another reason for gender choosing.

to the OP, I wasn't aware of the "curse of the chestnut TB mare", I happen to love all horses anyhow.... BUT, a project for resale means your choice should to be marketable... the broader the market the better, generally, unless you're trying to fill a niche. If the market is fickle on color, that has to be a consideration, at least imho.

Czar
Apr. 29, 2009, 05:51 PM
In this economy, the best resales are the ones that have absolutely NO strikes against them and fair or not, chestnut & mare are both strikes.

However, as findeight pointed out, if you want to hang onto her for a little longer & put some decent show miles than it's a different story.

Foxtrot's
Apr. 29, 2009, 06:00 PM
One word - Brentina.

As a re-sale project you have to go with the market - ridiculous or otherwise. No true horseman would be prejudiced.

Jo
Apr. 29, 2009, 06:04 PM
My horse of 14 years is an OTTB - chestnut - mare. I've loved her since day one.

I had an OTTB - chestnut - gelding - who was the shit of the earth, mean, and a total jerkbutt.

I'd take my chestnut mare anyday! And FWIW - all the chestnut mares I've met have been nice... I don't believe in the superstition!

Lilykoi
Apr. 29, 2009, 06:11 PM
Love mares, any color. Have four in my barn right now, all chestnut and one is a 31 year old TB. Still has that look in her eye. Probably one of the best horses I've ever ridden.

bort84
Apr. 29, 2009, 06:14 PM
Haha, I've always found this "red-headed mare" thing so crazy! I grew up riding saddle seat and had never heard of such a thing until I met an eventing friend and got interested in jumping/dressage/etc... Then I started hearing people say, "oh, she's a typical chestnut mare..." Huh? It makes no sense to me, and I've never seen any evidence of it being true. I love a chestnut, and I love a mare. I would never not buy a performance horse because of its color or gender (unless I'm looking at it for a breeding prospect, then gender is a smidge important, haha).

I'm with the group that says, if it wins, it will sell. If she's unproven when you try to sell her, perhaps you will see some prejudice (as silly as it is). But pretty is as pretty does, and most people will not pass on a winner because of color. Also, some people buy performance horses with thoughts of eventually retiring them to breed some babies... A gelding can't do that = )

LetsChat
Apr. 29, 2009, 06:20 PM
Chestnut? Mare? My favorite horse ever was a Chestnut Mare. I certainly wouldn't discount a horse who is good in other ways because of either of those two things.

I have to agree here, one of the nicest horses I ever rode was a DWB Chestnut mare, she had had babies too but was never marish, she was a saint, jumped in great form and generally got me a blue in the hack. A good horse is a good horse doesn't matter what the hair color is.

tx3dayeventer
Apr. 29, 2009, 06:26 PM
One word - Brentina.

As a re-sale project you have to go with the market - ridiculous or otherwise. No true horseman would be prejudiced.

Headley Britannia. Just won Rolex 4*, has already won Badminton 4* & Burghley 4*.

Spoken from someone who has 2 chestnut mares & 1 sorrel gelding :lol:

horsetales
Apr. 29, 2009, 06:29 PM
My chestnut mare is a sweetheart. However, if I was looking for re-sale, a chestnut mare would not be my first choice. I think mares in general are harder to sell. I think liver is easier to market than a bright red-head.

kbbarn
Apr. 29, 2009, 06:39 PM
My jumper is a chestnut mare. I also have a shirt that says 'Beware the Chestnut mare' which I wear with pride!

My chestnut mare is one of the hottest, most sensitive and moody horses you will meet, but I would not trade her for anything else. She is honest, quick, and as long as I ride her right, she is amazing. I ride her badly ( Ie - jump ahead like I did last week), I pay for it. Thus she has made me a much better rider.

The problem with riding the chestnut mare is that when I go to get on my black gelding, I wonder where the energy and enthusiasm is! I love the mares. The crankiness at feeding time, the facial expressions they have - love it! Now my white drafty cross mare who thinks she is the alpha mare with the 'make me' attitude- different story. Chestnut all the way!

supershorty628
Apr. 29, 2009, 06:45 PM
Absolutely not. My horse is a chestnut Thoroughbred mare (that's about as bad as you can get, superstition-wise). If someone is turned away by the sex and color of a horse rather than its talent, that's pretty pathetic.

Trevelyan96
Apr. 29, 2009, 06:52 PM
I would definitely not overlook a horse because of its sex or color, and I LOVE redheads, both chesnuts and blood bays are my favorites.

A good looking, good moving chestnut with chrome is always a hit in the hunter ring.

Go Fish
Apr. 29, 2009, 06:56 PM
I think there's a world of difference between a liver chestnut and red chestnut in most peoples' eyes. I'm not fond of red chestnuts, but wouldn't pass on a good 'un. I prefer geldings, in general, but I'm a dumb amy so geldings just suit me better.

chunky munky
Apr. 29, 2009, 06:58 PM
I am in agreement with Czar. Chestnut mare is not a turn on for very many hunter trainers. If you were buying for your own enjoyment with no particular plans for resale I would say go right on with it if you love it. Unless it has a big record most upper level hunter trainers will all but laugh at you if you say you have a chestnut mare prospect as an investment. You will have to invest much more money in showing to prove this color and gender compared to a bay gelding, there by realizing less profit in the long run.
Sorry all you CH M. lovers, but the way you want the world to be and the way it is 99% of the time are often two different things. If it was easy to sell a CH M many would be be out there snapping them up.

twofatponies
Apr. 29, 2009, 07:07 PM
Has anyone ever seen any science proving the chestnut mare thing?

supershorty628
Apr. 29, 2009, 07:27 PM
I am in agreement with Czar. Chestnut mare is not a turn on for very many hunter trainers. If you were buying for your own enjoyment with no particular plans for resale I would say go right on with it if you love it. Unless it has a big record most upper level hunter trainers will all but laugh at you if you say you have a chestnut mare prospect as an investment. You will have to invest much more money in showing to prove this color and gender compared to a bay gelding, there by realizing less profit in the long run.
Sorry all you CH M. lovers, but the way you want the world to be and the way it is 99% of the time are often two different things. If it was easy to sell a CH M many would be be out there snapping them up.

I'm pretty sure that Scott Stewart won the pre-green hunter futurity challenge something or other at Capital Challenge on a chestnut mare...I practically drooled over her, haha.

chunky munky
Apr. 29, 2009, 07:55 PM
Most likely no researched evidence regarding CH M's. And of course many people have won with chestnut mares, myself included. We can all drag out our war stories about the best chestnut mares we ever knew, ad nauseum...But winning with one and trying to sell one are not the same thing. Most hunters are not sold for professionals to ride I'm afraid. The original question is should she buy one to resell? Odds are not in her favor to have an easy marketing experience compared to a gelding of another color.

Parker_Rider
Apr. 29, 2009, 10:45 PM
This is why I L-O-V-E mares. My trainer thought I'd lost it when I told her I'd prefer a mare to a gelding. :eek:

We had a t-shirt at Sovan Hill that read:
A good gelding = a good horse
A good stallion = a good horse
A good mare = a GREAT horse

:D I love my gelding but my mare has jumped through injuries/crappy days/bad training for me and would jump the moon if I asked her to. She's a bay, but I'd take her even if she were purple... People who discriminate based on horse color/sex are, well, ridiculous IMO.

Wizard of Oz's
Apr. 29, 2009, 10:56 PM
I'm so confused. I can understand why mare might be a strike against a horse (though I don't necessarily agree) but I've never heard anything about chestnuts. Why would being a Chestnut be bad supposedly?

Jaegermonster
Apr. 29, 2009, 11:33 PM
I think the whole chestnut myth and the mare myth were just made up by someone to try to excuse their own poor riding, or their poor training of their horse that is manifesting itself in poor behavior. So there.
I've known plenty of bays and plenty of geldings that were royal pains in the ass too and no one blames it on color or hormones. Any horse is allowed to have a bad day.

To answer your question:
For me, no it would not be a deal breaker. I have a chestnut TB mare, for the record.
I never had enough money where things like color or sex could be top of the list. Age, conformation, soundness and temperament were way higher.

that said, depending on what price range you are going to market the mare to, yes it could be a dealbreaker. I think the mare part more than the chestnut part. There are folks that won't even look at a mare.
Once you get up into the mid to high five figures, people spending that kind of $$ on horses tend to be pickier about things like that.

Jaegermonster
Apr. 29, 2009, 11:34 PM
I'm so confused. I can understand why mare might be a strike against a horse (though I don't necessarily agree) but I've never heard anything about chestnuts. Why would being a Chestnut be bad supposedly?

for some reason some people believe that chestnut horses are more temperamental or sensitive, kind of like the myth about redheaded people.

Pickapace
Apr. 30, 2009, 12:11 AM
no way! i have a chestnut mare and she is the best thing that has ever happened to me. she is sooo amazing! i say go for it, if you like her, you should get her.

Angel Undercover
Apr. 30, 2009, 12:46 AM
I loff chestnut mares!! They are my favourite; all of the special horses in my life over the years have been chestnut actually, and all were mares but one. Most were tbs too! :D

SlamDunk
Apr. 30, 2009, 12:48 AM
There is a 3 year old that I'm looking at. She would be a resale prospect for the hunters. The pluses - cute mover, nice temperament, nice bloodlines - registered SF . She is just about 16 h but still young so could grow. Her siblings have all been sold to the US and are having some decent careers. I think the price will be right.

The minues - she is a mare. And chestnut. Granted liver chestnut but still.. let's call her what she is.

Would the chestnut mare thing be a deal-breaker for you if you were looking? Again, the theory is that she would be a resale.

Is she one of the ones from the Tatabra sale? Which lots number is she? I have the dvd and have been drooling over all of the horses

Seven-up
Apr. 30, 2009, 12:50 AM
Would not be a dealbreaker for me. I do tend to like mares better, but I've never had a chestnut one so I don't think I'm biased!:D

Tini Sea Soldier
Apr. 30, 2009, 01:01 AM
I have to tell you... one of the most interchangable ponies I ever rode was a little liver chestnut mare. She was smart as a whip, but you could put her in any ring and she'd walk out with ribbons to prove her worth. She wasn't the fanciest hunter, flashiest jumper, or perfect eq pony... but she could hold her own in each ring, march right next door to the next ring, and switch gears without blinking an eye or giving an ounce of protest!

Mukluk
Apr. 30, 2009, 01:11 AM
I LOVE my

Beautiful

Smart

Athletic

Sensible

Wonderful

CHESTNUT
THOROUGHBRED
MARE!!!!!

faraway46
Apr. 30, 2009, 01:11 AM
Hey Missy! Shoppin' for horses beats shoe shoppin' anyday (well depends what shoes...hmmm)! Count me in when you go to the auction!!!
As for chesnut mares, I can swear I had one that died her coat bay and had a sex change while she was at it...it was the crappiest bay gelding you could find! He was moody 24/7 and had no excuse to be so! Traded him in for a truckload of hay bales and, believe me, it was a good deal...
I've had great greys, chesnuts and bays. I've also survived bads in all coats and sexes. I'd go for a purple hemaphrodite if it can jump. Then again, I'm no example, since I find it amusing to ride my way around quirks....
You have a good eye. Trust your instincts and you'll do great!

chunky munky
Apr. 30, 2009, 07:48 AM
I am perhaps assuming that the investor here is looking to sell in the USA hunter market. Perhaps I am wrong. If you are dealing with an eventing or jumper market the perameters of selling are perhaps a bit broader. I think you will also find that the CH M issue is not as significant in ponies as horses. My best advice would be to consider who you will be selling to. I would survey the trainers in my area who would be likely prospects to ultimately purchase my investment horse. Ask them how they feel about purchasing a green chestnut mare for a client in their barn. Then ask them how many they currently have in their barn and out of those how many do they actually LIKE!! :lol:
It is a little like building a spec house. I live in an area where people like fairly traditional style homes. If I came in and built what is not customary for my area it will most likely take me longer to find a buyer. ( ie: more interst on construction loan, less profit) That doesn't mean that if I built a California contemporary style home that the first day I put it on the market that some left coaster won't walk in and buy it because it reminded them of the house they grew up in, but my odds are much better for a sale if I build what is customary for my market. It just makes better sales sense. And I may love a nontraditional house but I am not building a vanity house, I am trying to build what will sell well and make me $$.

nycjumper
Apr. 30, 2009, 08:28 AM
CM - you are right on both discipline & market. And the feedback from the trainers I asked was pretty much in line with your analysis.

If I was buying for me, it wouldn't be a factor. But since in theory it would be a resale - you have to play by the rules of the game. And the mare thing seems to already be a big no & the chestnut factor just makes it worse.

Hmm.. there were a few bay geldings that I liked ;)

briddygirl
Apr. 30, 2009, 09:07 AM
Okay....I'm partial to redheads.....I have a tobiano gelding, as well.....and de prefer my redhead...she is very sweet. It think it all has to do with who the sire/dam are.....she's out of Wetherson...and he was/is notorious for throwing reds and mares at that!

chunky munky
Apr. 30, 2009, 09:36 AM
Sounds like you are doing your homework, NYC. Good on ya! There is probably nothing more fun than purchasing a prospect, spiffing it up a bit, training it a bit and selling it within 6 months to a great trainer for a boatload of $$:lol::lol: Not quite as easy as it was a few years ago, but still can be done within reason. Have a good time with that, I wish I was at the sale with you! Trust your sales instincts and don't fall in love for all the wrong reasons!!:)

findeight
Apr. 30, 2009, 09:53 AM
Again, for resale as a PROSPECT, meaning a 6 month flip with no shows.

Buy a 16.2 WBxTB cross plain bay gelding age 4 to 7. That should offend absolutely nobody and give you acess to a larger buyer pool, particulary on internet searches that many will exclude mares in general.

But IF you can keep it 18 months and take it to shows and it does well, NOBODY CARES that much IF it is appropriately priced. They see it do well at the show, they'll get interested.

May not make some happy, but all the CM's I have seen get blamed for being "hot" seem to do just as well in a regular training program as that 16.2 hand bay gelding. Probably beat him in the hack too.

It's a cliche that gets used as an excuse.

nycjumper
May. 1, 2009, 04:18 PM
Findeight - IF I was in the US, I would absolutely gamble on her. She's a very cute mare & a nice mover & I think someone is going to have a lot of luck if they buy her. But since I'm here (and we don't have hunters), people would be buying off a video.

I personally think it's ridiculous but again - the market dictates certain things and if I am trying to increase my odds, I will play by those rules.

The nice thing is there are a lot of great options :)

hollyhorse2000
May. 1, 2009, 04:49 PM
God I HATE the chestnut mare superstition. Just a bunch of cr^&*. I have a fabulous chestnut mare who couldn't be a better horse and if I win the lottery I want to breed her to a chestnut sire to get something that looks EXACTLY like her. (she's also a warmblood; the term dumbblood also gets my hair on fire.)

merrygoround
May. 1, 2009, 04:51 PM
I love liver chestnuts, and I'm fine with mares. If you find that you can't sell her, I'll take her, even if she doesn't get taller. :lol:Tired of climbing on tall horses.

Sansena
May. 1, 2009, 05:32 PM
Not a deal breaker.
Anybody who seriously wants a talented horse isnt' going to look at color for a second..

Ever hear of Playbill.. or Stella Blue.. I'm sure there's others, too..