Any 'croup high' horses go above 1st or 2nd level ? ...

[BaroquePony]

Can a horse that is maybe 1" to 2" higher in the croup than the withers go beyond 1st level? Can they work from back to front with a proper connection going through the back muscles from the haunches to the bit? This would be on a horse that has very good conformation otherwise, including big hocks and powerful haunces.

[exvet]

My 10 year old gelding is over an inch higher at the croup as compared to his wither. He is competing PSG. His first time out he scored a little over 62%. He has won highpoint trophies at fourth, third, second and first level. He has won state championships at 1st & 2nd level. We were 3rd (63%) at the regionals at second level a few years back in good company. So yes, it can be done, and yes he has a heck of a hind end and very strong loin.

[BaroquePony]

exvet, is that the same horse that you referenced on the welsh cob thread as a "thick-necked, sway back, very downhill critter but a typical welsh cob heart"?

[JackSprats Mom]

Yes, we had a mare at our barn that was 1-2" higher in the back end but she was an amazing mover so while travelling you never noticed but standing still it was obvious!

[exvet]

Yes that is the same one. He measures a little more than an inch (inch and a few hairs :winkgrin:) at the croup (15.1) and 15 hands at the wither. When he was at first level and 6 years old he was 14.3+ at the wither. Due to increased muscling as he's moved up the levels he's come closer to evening out but at almost eleven I don't think he'll ever be level :no:. More importantly in regards to his downhill stature, his elbow is below his stifle. And, yes, he does have a short, thick neck and some consider him to be swayback. As a welsh cob person, I don't think he's truly swayback as in clinical lordosis but he does have the welsh cob curves ;)

[Forte]

There are LOTS of croup high horses that compete at the higher levels. No, it is not the ideal conformation, and it may be harder for these horse but it definitely can be done. I think that many of the really modern type warmbloods have such EXTREME uphill conformation that it can look like they are sitting and engaging their haunches, when they really aren't. It's just that they have this huge uphill neck and wither. I wouldn't buy a horse that is grossly croup high, but if the horse is a little croup high, but you love everything else about him, go for it!

Take a look at the stallion Sir Sinclair on the Iron Springs Farm website. He is very clearly croup high, competing successfully in the small tour and is approved breeding stallion.

[FriesianX]

Look up Against All Odds, the PMU horse that is doing FEI - if you saw him standing in his stall, you'd laugh, no way can he do dressage. Butt high, Quarterhorse/Draft/etc cross. But his rider gets on him, and it is wonderful to watch! I agree with Forte, there are plenty of 'em out there - no horse has ideal conformation, AND some have lovely conformation, but don't have the brains (or maybe the gaits) to do well in any discipline. It is more about how the horse uses himself, and how the rider rides him that determines whether the horse can do FEI work.

[EventingJ]

I recently tried a horse who was slightly croup high - but while riding he moved as though he was built uphill. He had probably one of the best extended trots I've ever seen on a throughbred, I was flabbergasted. In fact I called my dressage-y friend on the phone the first day I had him and made her come over and watch - she was also very impressed. I still wonder if I made the right decision on passing on him, but he seemed more like a dressage horse or maybe a nice hunter... just not one of those let me bring you to the fence sort of guys that I love. He is even still available at fingerlakes :)

http://fltrainerlist.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=731

[CatOnLap]

croup high does not alone determine potential.
Elastic joints, strong supple back, strong legs, a good mind and a half decent trainer can overcome such an obstacle.

My now 25 year old QH was 15.3 in front and a hair under 16.1 behind when stood up square. He trained PSG, championed 3rd and was/is a schoolmaster to many different people for the last 13 years. And at the time I trained him, I wasn't even half decent-which is where a good horse's mind comes in: he forgave a lot. He is still sound on virtually no maintenance except good nutrition, turnout, and regular exercise. I am convinced that basic dressage done regularly improves a horse's health and longevity.

Look at how the horse moves and how he carries himself -if he can look lovely/pretty but still be under himself when moving, I wouldn't give the slightly high croup a second thought. Bonus if he can already carry himself that way under saddle and is easy to sit.
E-J that particular thoroughbred looks very nice although he lacks the more tightly sprung hindquarters I like to see for anything above 3rd level.

[EqTrainer]

It's really not something that you can look at in exclusion. Is the horse truly downhill stifle to elbow? Does the horse naturally carry downhill or does it easily (when moving freely) bend its joints enough to be level or even uphill? Sometimes you need to watch video to truly see what is going on. Looking at not just the rear end, but in particular what the horse does w/the base of the neck/withers/right behind the withers often tells you the real truth about what the horse is capable of doing.

If the horse is truly downhill and does not naturally offer a better balance to be level or even slightly uphill at liberty, I would pass. Yes, training may overcome some of this but it is hard on those horses, and they tend to have back issues/base of the neck issues because the saddle is being shifted forward even on the best days.. amongst other things. People are built pretty much downhill when on all fours, so if you don't understand this, get down on the ground and make your back down a little bit and then look up. Ouch!

I have had and trained a lot of horses who were truly croup high but sat down from day one enough to be starting at level, if not in the positive immediately. Pushing one to do this, who naturally does not, will usually break them down. I always try to be careful to not take advantage of natural trainability and rideability in the conformationally challenged - just because you can get them to do it doesn't mean they should. Usually it's time to find a job they can do easily, once you've got their basics on them. All horses benefit from learning to be balanced and supple, it's what you do after that, that is either good for them or bad.

[ToN Farm]

Yes, training may overcome some of this but it is hard on those horses, and they tend to have back issues/base of the neck issues because the saddle is being shifted forward even on the best days. What kind of base of the neck issues, Eqt? Can you expand?

[Happy Feet]

Yeppers! You just can't ride them Croup HIgh!

[BaroquePony]

You just can't ride them Croup HIgh!

Dang, I just thought if I put draw reins on and .....

It's a joke lstevenson, it's a joke :lol:

[willie 2]

I agree with EQT.

You have to look at the big picture. In Anky's dressage confirmation book, she outlines that horses who are uphill do not always have to "measure" uphill, but rather must "move in an uphill manner."

I think this description is to what EQT refers. If they engage well, step well under themselves, etc. then you can see the "offer" to move in an UPHILL manner, regardless of where the croup is in relation to the wither.

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[rabicon]

exvet, if thats your guy in your profile he is NICE :D You make him sound like some fugly mix breed accident. But he looks pretty dang good.

[Ambrey]

She had a photo of him in a wash rack that really showed off his faults well, and was great for tricking people by asking "how high can this horse go?"

But seriously, having been a fan of exvet's horse for quite some time, he doesn't look like the same horse standing still vs. moving, even in the less obvious photos.

[Plantagenet]

what's always amazing to me is how LITERAL some folks can be in evaluating a horse's potential!

for example, if a horse is croup high, no matter how he moves, they won't consider buying him.

I have a friend who says that people hold on to things like croup high as being importanty because

"any moron can see it"

(his words not mine)

and that things like how a horse moves are harder to evaluate so people don't talk about that with as much certainty.

[Couture TB]

Here is my Swedish that was shown 3rd level before I sold him, and schooling 4th level. I think he went on to do Prix St George or at least was schooling it. He was definitly not ideal in build. http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm205/MattsonTraining/Edmonton.jpg

Bought him as an eventer. He HATED it. Sold him as a dressage horse to a woman that loved him. By the way, his build did not scare them off, and trust me he was sold in the late 90s when prices were good so he was not cheap.

[exvet]

Rabicon - Yes it's the same horse; and thank you for the compliment.

Here is a link to the picture Ambrey is referring to. It was taken in March 2008.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o253/ldarling_photos/Montyprofile.jpg

Here are a couple of pictures my daughter took at the show in March of this year. I showed PSG. The second one demonstrates how powerful he is in the sense that I have tried and tried and tried not to allow my "inside" lower leg go forward towards the girth in the tempis but he has such a kick/push with his hind end that I get thrown forward much of the time......but hey they are clean.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o253/ldarling_photos/2009/IMG_0078.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o253/ldarling_photos/2009/IMG_0131.jpg

[Ambrey]

I guess he's a perfect example of a downhill horse with uphill gaits!

He just gets better every year, exvet!

(with the help of solid riding and training, of course!).

[BaroquePony]

exvet,

WOW. Thank you for posting those photos. They are great.

[slc2]

Even if quite a few horses manage to do this level or that level, I still don't think overall, that I would select horses with obviously deficient conformation in multiple areas, to do upper level work with.

With limited funds, people like me are often making lots of compromises in the horses they buy. These horses don't have ideal gaits or conformation. So we do what we can with what we have.

Some people will tell you that with care and not planning a very heavy program (tons of showing, tons of classes), a lot of horses can do Prix St Georges test. With exceptions, I kind of agree, except I think that the horse's 'comfortable limit', the 'can do for years' limit really does vary and horses top out lower than that.

I don't think of a horse's croup being a little bit higher than their withers as being a show stopper. Especially if the goal is PSG and the intentions are modest and there is a very good trainer around to help, and even more so if the fault is to a minor degree and not coupled iwth a lot of other faults.

But I do think that if a horse is generally built heavy on the forehand, so it is hard for him to balance himself and lift himself in collection, the rider is going to work harder, and the horse is going to work harder.

Especially the hocks are going to work harder and take more wear. The hocks and back. And trouble in these areas is often where you see people having to drop down or retire horses.

I wish it were different. I wish every horse was like exvet's horse, less than ideal conformation and performing at PSG at a horse show. But the fact is, this just isn't the norm.

Some times a horse has poor conformation in the body and does put wear and tear on legs, but has very good legs, so things go better. Sometimes a horse has a lot of natural balance and a less than ideal leg holds up much better than expected.

A lot of times, people know their horse isn't ideal, and they just see how far they can progress and accept where it stops.

'More work' means more chance for injury of the wear-and-tear type, and over the years, I have seen that the horses that generally are 'not-in-type (ie, multiple faults adding up) more often have to be dropped down or retired when they are doing work that they are less than suitable for.

Being high in the croup can be a part of an overall heavy-on-the-forehand conformation, high behind along with a heavy long neck, straight shoulder, heavy chest, long back, weak loin, small hindquarter and straight hocks. When taken all together, it isn't ideal. It just isn't. It's harder work for the horse and rider.

A person can feel the difference between a horse that is working very very hard to do this work and a horse that finds it more natural because of the way he is built.

Given the choice, I would steer away from a horse that was not built for the work, but like most people, I can't exactly afford to be real picky.

[exvet]

While I don't disagree with the points SLC has made, I do want to point out that I acquired Monty (Desert Moon Champignon) as a 2 year old. He was croup high then but I had ridden and shown his dam who is not croup high and actually has much nicer gaits than her son and I was acquainted with his sire. I decided to take him on at the time 'cause he was another welsh cob that was considered a reject, I had just sold one of my welsh cobs and was looking for a resale project, and all he wanted to do was canter which for a welsh cob isn't what I would call the norm yet I will admit to realizig his gaits were at best average but at least he LIKED to canter so.................

I have sort of made it a habit to bring along "pairs" of welsh cobs at a time. When I acquired Monty I had another, around the same age, who I felt was more likely going to be "the one" and eventually after backing/starting and taking to a few early shows it would be Monty that I would sell on; but, as time went on it was apparent that (a) Monty's conformation was going to remain downhill - had hoped that the croup high/downhill conformation was just a growth phase given his parents and (b) he has the heart of hearts and never said "no". Now don't get me wrong he is not easy - flighty, strong, bullyish, to this day requires daily reminders on whose space is whose - which is why I was asked if I'd take him off someone's hands so many years ago. Because of his willingness to please and the fact that he has real strength and power which has been developed with lots and lots of conditioning work I decided to keep Monty and sell his counterpart. I have never regretted my decision. I had plans when Monty was 6 (sold the other who was 7 at the time) to take him to PSG. It is and always has been the plan to stop at PSG (get my silver) and give him to my daughter to learn on. I have a friend who is a judge sans kids who is incredulous that I would just step aside and give my daughter this horse and not continue up the levels. Monty will not be retired but he has given me everything I've asked for and more, much more. He will, however, be kept sound which he has been and has some of the best damn hocks around. Two tempis are a piece of cake, pirouettes aren't that difficult for him either, piaffes, well, he offers those too many times when not wanted but it's the passage that will break him down if I were to continue. I am soooooooo glad though that I didn't look at him with the idea - gee he'll never be able to passage so I think I'll pass. Hell I never would have had half the fun I've had over the years. I've done all his training. He has never been put in training with anyone and my riding instructor has climbed aboard a handful of times. I work full-time and am in no way God's gift to the riding world. I am a vet and have some knowledge of biomechanics; but, most of all I know heart and when a partnership will and when it won't develop. I have to kind of giggle at the concept of what considered "easier". Uh yeah I've had a few textbook conformation types that had/have awesome gaits and unfortunately due to mind set (inherited dispositions) lets just say "easier" is all in the mind.

No my horse is sound and will stay that way. I had no trouble training him. Once we really became solid 1st level, he's advanced about a level a year. I will not continue beyond PSG because he has another job to do and I have 4 others in the wings with 3 of those 4 having a very realistic chance of reaching FEI. Of those 3 I'm afraid I have another somewhat croup high fellow. He has better gaits than Monty though. Jury is also out as to whether or not he'll remain croup high 'cause again neither Mom or Dad are and he's still growing. My main point is that you can listen to the experts, you can follow your heart, you can wait for perfection or whenever you can afford perfection. Let's just say I am so glad I followed my heart and didn't listen to a damn soul outside of my little circle. I've managed to live some dreams I'm sure I'd otherwise be still waiting to live.

So keep in mind that it really is the WHOLE package and I'm not really, nor is my horse all that unusual, just willing to work hard and lucked into one hell of a riding instructor. Am I saying every croup high horse can do what Monty does? No; but, I am saying that there is a method to my madness, no real genious or even luck to it just methodical training, REAL conditioning and I don't think it's unreasonable for me to be in as good of shape as my horse is if ya know what I mean ;) I think it's lack of the latter two ingredients more so than the conformational issues of the horse that keeps most pairs from getting there and/or resulting in lameness. JMO but then I don't have the vast experience that some others on this board have :winkgrin:

[slc2]

You have the most important things though...definitely. I think the best part of the whole thing is that the horse will become a schoolmaster at that level. I would love to hear in ten years, your daughter is having just as much fun with the horse as you did.