UPDATE: He's home, really need advice pg6 One-Rein-Stop? ASB

[ASBnTX]

My horse has had two months at the trainers, and for the most part I've been very pleased. I am wondering about an issue with the one-rein-stop technique, and am hoping to get y'all thoughts. Trainer is a HUGE believer in the O-R-S. He drills it. His background is also primarily with QH's, and this is his first Saddlebred. While I do appreciate the fact that an "emergency brake" is needed on all young horses, I'm somewhat undecided as to whether this is the best "emergency brake" for my horse.
Here's what I've observed... when my horse is tense, worried, or spooked, his head naturally pops straight up, which is very, very high, as I'm sure all of you ASB people can appreciate Trainer will initiate a O-R-S, and to me the angle of the bend when his head is so high, is very akward, and really looks uncomfortable to me. This seems to tense horsey up even more, and then it's a struggle. It tends to throw horsey up (sometimes a mini-rear) and sideways falling out through his opposite shoulder with a lot of sideways steps, instead of being able to bend in a circle. Being so off-balanced and tense then seems to exacerbate the problem. Do you find this an easy brake for ASB's or other high-headed horses, or have you found that they struggle with it due to head position? Is there another way that you've found more effective? I would imagine that Friesians, Morgans, Standardbreds, etc. might have the same type issues.

[twofatponies]

My Morgan has a lot of old Saddlebred blood, and a very high headed design. The trainer I've been working with taught her the lateral flexion "ORS" exercise early on, and now that she's practiced it for a while she flexes down and around. I don't know if it took her longer to learn than other types of horses. There were other variables that affected her learning - she's very alpha, she was used to evading by raising her head straight up, and so forth. I taught it to my other mare - a Warmblood/QH cross - and she learned it much more quickly, but she also had 10 years of solid saddle training behind her and is much less domineering in temperament, so it wasn't as "new" a concept for her.

[caffeinated]

Is the horse popping the head way up every time the ORS is attempted?

Seems to me if a horse is worried or upset, the best way to deal with it is to push forward and go to work and divert the horses attention- riding TBs is teaching me this tactic all the time- trying to "stop" (regardless of the method used) will often make a tense or worried horse more tense or worried.

Personally, I don't ride such high headed breeds, though I do ride TBs frequently who "giraffe" and I find when I need an emergency brake, a pulley rein works just fine.

But for the stuff that puts the horse's head up there in the first place, it's hard to do because it's not instinctual, the best thing I've found is working on and moving the feet, not trying to stop them. :)

[ASBnTX]

Is the horse popping the head way up every time the ORS is attempted?

No, not always.. Trainer will ORS when the horse starts off at a faster speed than what he's asked. Bending to the right he is much less balanced, and that usually results in his head popping up, which then throws him more off-balanced. OR he will ORS mid-spook when his head is already in the air.

[narcisco]

In my book the one rein stop is an emergency measure, like a pulley rein. So, if the horse is bucking, bolting, spooking, then the horse should be familiar enough with it to respond in an emergency. The horse can get ugly and hollow and throw his head and that's ok. Mini-rears are not ok. A pulley rein might keep the horse straighter and keep the horse from falling sideways.

It is not a training aid and should not be used "when the horse starts off at a faster speed than asked." A half halt is a better aid for that.

[drmgncolor]

In my book the one rein stop is an emergency measure, like a pulley rein. So, if the horse is bucking, bolting, spooking, then the horse should be familiar enough with it to respond in an emergency. The horse can get ugly and hollow and throw his head and that's ok. Mini-rears are not ok. A pulley rein might keep the horse straighter and keep the horse from falling sideways.

It is not a training aid and should not be used "when the horse starts off at a faster speed than asked." A half halt is a better aid for that.

That's what I always thought... a ONS was to be used only in an emergency.

OP - I have an ASB and yes, she is naturally very high headed. If she gets nervous, tense or spooked (heck she can just see something interesting and be curious) then up goes the head she hollows her back and gets quick at the trot too. To get her to loosen back up and slow back down, I do a few circles to get her to bend again and to stop thinking about the booger. Not tight circles, but on the small side. Then I switch directions and do it again and then go back out to the rail.

We do a lot of circles. ;)

[class]

are you eventually hoping to use this horse for dressage? if so, i would change trainers now.

[Alexie]

i read a lot about the ORS on another forum and read a lot of people telling how it made their horses more excited, not less
then a user on here mentioned that the ORS was a moment in time in which the ORS was used to distract the horse and bring his attention back to you, not madly turning round in circles as a sort of "well now you're going to work hard and see if that won't stop you playing up"

the reply helped me make a lot more sense of the ORS, and i wonder if it might help here?

from a dumb english person who has no idea about the ORS and turns it into turn on the forhand by default :o

[buck22]

I have a morgan that goes giraffe when on alert, I also have a very different take on ORS (I don't even call it ORS because I find that so mis-used).... its not an emergency brake imho, and it shouldn't involve discomfort, unbalance, twisting or wrenching or anything of the kind.

ORS, imho, is just disengaging the HQ with lateral flexion. *If* trained well, it *can* be a great kill switch for the engine, but if it involves pulling the head around with force, and a horse that is just as upset as it was before, its not "ORS", its just an old pony club emergency stop.

I call it disengaging the hind quarters, and its taught. Disengaging the hind quarters breaks a horse's power drive (from tail to poll) which will momentarily break a horse's frantic state. It is extremely good for calming a horse down in small doses without confining him. It is appropriate to teach (imho) to a horse that may be prone to being confused and flighty or unconfident. It is taught on the ground first (with several steps, not just pull and step over) then from the back. When taught, dis'ing the hq's will give a horse something positive and calming to do in a moment where he is distracted or upset ... THAT's what its for. NOT for stopping a runaway... if you horse is running away you have a bigger issue imho.

People get all hung up on ORS because it does work well, but I see it misused soooooo much. ORS will help teach - or rather accelerate the learning of - lateral flexion and softness. It will help calm down a horse that is too forward. And it does make a handy emergency brake.

BUT, if taught improperly (which imho I generally find), and overused (which is easy to do and generally is), it can cause resistance, sourness, balkyness, and it robs the desire to go forward.

Ask me how I know :no: I've made these very mistakes myself, took *too forward* horses and turned them into duds :no: because I didn't know how to use the energy the horse was presenting instead. Now I look back on some of the fine forwardness I drilled away, forwardness I could've used for good work and schooling had I known better.

this is all just my 2¢, and my opinion, but I do tend to get on a soapbox about "ors". Not understanding the true concept of ORS, but going ahead and doing it anyhow, was a phase in my learning that I really regret.

[buck22]

It is not a training aid and should not be used "when the horse starts off at a faster speed than asked." A half halt is a better aid for that.
just read this... this is (again my opinion) when ORS should NOT be used, and this is where it is misused most often... people use it as speed control. It is not an effective use of the horse's energy level. It shuts the energy down... it tells horsie "your forwardness is not welcomed here". It *can* make a horse sour by that, sour to move off your leg, resentful of being asked to move out... it can also make a green horse unsure about being ridden, confused that he's asked to go and then asked to slow, can make them unsure about the meaning of having a rider.

sorry to rant.

[Eclectic Horseman]

Dear lord. I had to look to see if I was on the dressage board. :lol:

One rein stop means: STOP. It is an emergency brake, in extreme circumstances, such as bolting in the awards ceremony. :winkgrin:

Otherwise, whatever the heck you are talking about is not a one rein stop--and it is certainly not any kind of aid recognized in dressage. :no:

[AZ TD]

Yikes! You need to get a new trainer asap, this is not a dressage training method. The horse may just need to find its balance and a trainer can help with half-halts to rebalance it.
Dressage horses need to go forward and straight, a basic principal, and this one rein stop sounds contrary to correct training.
Theresa

[twofatponies]

buck22 makes some very good points.

I would add that in the work I've done, the lateral flexion exercise is taught standing, then walking, then trotting etc. - it is introduced gradually, and has, as buck22 described, multiple purposes in Western-style horse training. If you've taught it, then it has the added benefit that in a bolty kind of situation where the horse is blowing through the bit, you can say "hey, remember that exercise we did? pay attention now, and listen to what I'm asking" and they have a rehearsed response to that request.

[merrygoround]

I don't think ORS is a creditable QH training tool. Your trainer sounds as though he is not capable of dealing with a horse that is forward.

When a horse gets distracted, the sensible thing is to bring his attention back to you with transitions, circles, changes of direction, not yanking on one rein. The operative word is "Forward".

ORS is something you use to save your life in the case of a dead runaway. Even then if I have a steep hill available, I'd rather run up that. :) I'm not all that fond of downhill runaways. :) :no:

[ASBnTX]

I'm actually bringing him home this week. I really just wanted the first several rides put on him just to get him used to someone being up there and moving out at all three gaits.
It is not a training aid and should not be used "when the horse starts off at a faster speed than asked." A half halt is a better aid for that.
That's what I thought...I've only heard mention of ORS in connection to bolting.
ORS, imho, is just disengaging the HQ with lateral flexion. *If* trained well, it *can* be a great kill switch for the engine, but if it involves pulling the head around with force, and a horse that is just as upset as it was before, its not "ORS", its just an old pony club emergency stop.

This is what I'm worried about. I understand the concept of disengage the HQ with lateral flexion, so that your horse can't bolt off, but speed control? If he moves out faster than asked, training immediately ORS, then start again.
Trainer is also drilling the flexion part, which I think is ok on a happy, relaxed day, but when he's tense, he has happy feet and needs to move them. Being all bent around is frustrating him. Then they wind up doing the flexion dance, circle, circle, circle, until his feet stop moving.
I have an ASB and yes, she is naturally very high headed. If she gets nervous, tense or spooked (heck she can just see something interesting and be curious) then up goes the head she hollows her back and gets quick at the trot too. To get her to loosen back up and slow back down, I do a few circles to get her to bend again and to stop thinking about the booger. Not tight circles, but on the small side. Then I switch directions and do it again and then go back out to the rail.

We do a lot of circles.

This makes a lot more sense to me. Smallish circles until you get their brain back :)

[rabicon]

My guy is a morgan x appendix and can be higher than a giraffe :lol: back in his day. At first when I taught him the O R S was not for that reason. It was more to get him flexioning in his neck. When we first started it he would do the same thing somewhat or either pull so hard againist me or walk in tinsey circles. Once he figured out what I'm asking he immediatly touches his nose to my foot now. All I have to do is barely touch his rein standing there and pull it back a little and he will flex. Once he learned that I wasn't trying to kill him with it I can use it now to calm him or make him quit hollaring for a buddy at a show. It also really helps him to relax. Its your call if its being taught correctly though and used correctly and I never really used it as a O R S except twice when he tried to bolt on me jumping and once at a fun show running barrels. :lol:


Also, it really helps at shows because if we are in the dressage ring he really really understands when I tickle my outside rein that he needs to drop his head and not look off into wonderland because something over there may be scary.

[NJRider]

Just curious.... is your trainer a follower of Clinton Anderson, mate?

[goeslikestink]

are you eventually hoping to use this horse for dressage? if so, i would change trainers now.

so would i
have a look at my hellpful links pages on the sticky on this forum
read page one
if he cant do the baisc foundation of a half halt stride - then get another trianer

[Sabine]

are you eventually hoping to use this horse for dressage? if so, i would change trainers now.

boy- I am sooo with you on that one...I have a Friesian/saddlebred cross that I train for dressage. He is super sensitive and I consider that one of his greatest attributes. Treating a horse in this manner can not be considered anything conducive to refined dressage training....

(wondering why those methods would ever be used for a dressage horse...???)

[ASBnTX]

Just curious.... is your trainer a follower of Clinton Anderson, mate?
Why yes he is! I'm very, very glad that I'm bringing my horse home this week. I did all the groundwork with him, backed him several times last fall, long-lined him, etc. I just didn't quite have the nerve to get him moving out really for the first several rides :eek: So this trainer has been good for that, but now it's definitely time to bring him home before he gets squirrely. He is a sensitive horse, and some of the CH methods just blow him up. It's just too "in-your-face" for him. Although I know several people who've had their horses started by him, and they've done well. My horse is not a bolter, but some days has a bit of a spook. Although I've never seen one that is ORS-worthy. Moving him forward and circling would be sufficient. He's very light, very responsive, and eager to do what you ask. I just think this ORS business is making him feel like he's "wrong" for doing what he thought was asked of him, which upsets him, understandably.

[rabicon]

so would i
have a look at my hellpful links pages on the sticky on this forum
read page one
if he cant do the baisc foundation of a half halt stride - then get another trianer

agree

Teaching the flexion at the stand is not a horrible thing. I don't do it in w/t/c but he did know in those 2 situation when he took off what I was wanting and reacting.

[NJRider]

That explains it....the use of the ORS as part of the training, not just as an emergency stop, is common in the CA training philosophy. I think it is a good thing to
"practice" the ORS and to introduce it to the horse. But, CA really incorporates it strongly in the the overall riding and training.

[twofatponies]

when he's tense, he has happy feet and needs to move them. Being all bent around is frustrating him. Then they wind up doing the flexion dance, circle, circle, circle, until his feet stop moving.



It's supposed to work like that - and at that final moment when his feet stop moving, bingo, release and reward. So that after some practice he goes right to the stopping part, and doesn't need to circle round and round, because he's figured it out and immediately balances himself and is not bracing against the request for flexion. And in later refinement, it turns into a more subtle maneuver - a simple half halt on the rein will remind him to flex slightly, drop his nose, and balance and get ready for the next request. A lot of more advanced western riding involves fast changes of speed and direction (competitive cattle work, reining, etc.), so perhaps they've developed that method because it is more productive to those end goals?

It might not be compatible with your dressage goals, I don't know about that. And I second goeslikestinks suggestion to look at her sticky links - they are very useful!

[slc2]

Great idea, especially if you want to get your horse more and more craned up and stiffer in his neck and more tense.

Top #1 reason horses get tense: loss of balance. What does the one rein stop do. Make them lose their balance.

Not a good idea for a dressage horse.

Not a good idea for a horse that's spooking, they need to go forward, same with bucking and anything else.

With a dressage horse you actually work your little self to a frazzle for 20 yrs trying to NOT disengage his haunches, and NOT have him do a one rein stop.

There are far, far safer things to do when a horse takes off. When a horse runs off, the last thing you want to go is make him lose his balance by disengaging his hind quarters. Keep the horse straight, keep him on his feet, and end the incident without drama and without injury.

This sort of 'riding' and 'training' is not really designed for a horse like a Saddlebred, I don't think.

The fact that it's practically making the animal fall down in one direction is an indication that it isn't a good plan.

Poor horse.

The last Saddlebred I rode, I can't even begin to imagine how much of a mess all that would cause, mentally as well as physically. He would have thrown himself off a cliff for his rider if asked - treatment like that would have driven him nuts.

When your horse goes too fast circle him if you like, with a gentle bend in the neck, and a give and take in the rein, always going back to a normal contact on both reins, with the horse's neck mostly straight out in front of you (any bend in the neck is very slight), it's really not that big of a deal if a horse goes a little faster or squirts ahead now and then, it's kinda expected for most young horses to do that. It's good. It means the horse has a desire to go forward. Getting a little relaxed about things like that tends to make those things go away on their own.

Pat him on the neck, hold your seat so it doesn't quite follow along with his motions so readily, so you are setting a slower rhythm. Talk to him, make sure your legs aren't gripping or tellng him to go, and bend him with an opening rein so his neck gets loosened up a little bit.

Often what I used to do with a horse that got trotting very fast is just walk a couple steps. Just walk. No disengaging, one rein stopping, just go to a wallk. Say whoa, walk. Then ask for a trot again. Rinse and repeat.

There is plenty of time to fix these things. No big dramatic gigantic stopping 'technique' is needed. All the one rein stop does is get the horse nervous, uneven on the reins, off balance, and crooked.

[cb06]

Having been around ASB's for many years and recently retrained mine for dressage (continuous work in progress), I think your assessment below is spot on. While the bending and giving to pressure is important, and knowing the basics of a ORS is eventually a good idea (for the rider in emergency maybe), in this situation with a young, sensitive, eager to please horse (a typical ASB), I don't think the ORS is constructive. I had much better results ignoring the little 'looky lu' moments and sending the 'energy and eagerness' forward and circling, leg yeilding, serpentine, etc. Shutting him down with something like a ORS would only bring on similar responses to yours...he would get frustrated and confused and the worry would build into nothing constructive. Send him forward, work on stretching into a contact he can trust, and regain his brain in other ways...you will both be much happier.

...and what slc2 said...very good advice. Pats, praise and softeness will get you much farther.

Why yes he is! I'm very, very glad that I'm bringing my horse home this week. I did all the groundwork with him, backed him several times last fall, long-lined him, etc. I just didn't quite have the nerve to get him moving out really for the first several rides :eek: So this trainer has been good for that, but now it's definitely time to bring him home before he gets squirrely. He is a sensitive horse, and some of the CH methods just blow him up. It's just too "in-your-face" for him. Although I know several people who've had their horses started by him, and they've done well. My horse is not a bolter, but some days has a bit of a spook. Although I've never seen one that is ORS-worthy. Moving him forward and circling would be sufficient. He's very light, very responsive, and eager to do what you ask. I just think this ORS business is making him feel like he's "wrong" for doing what he thought was asked of him, which upsets him, understandably.

[narcisco]

I always get a chill when I hear the words, "disengage the haunches." Dressage is all about engaging the haunches.

[JB]

No, not always.. Trainer will ORS when the horse starts off at a faster speed than what he's asked. Bending to the right he is much less balanced, and that usually results in his head popping up, which then throws him more off-balanced. OR he will ORS mid-spook when his head is already in the air.
That is not the purpose of a ORS, and I'd be finding a new trainer, sorry :no:

[RHdobes563]

One rein stop means: STOP. It is an emergency brake, in extreme circumstances, such as bolting in the awards ceremony. :winkgrin:

:lol::lol::lol:

[Bayou Roux]

Agreeing with all the posters who are telling you both that this is misuse of the emergency procedure of the ORS, and that this trainer is on the wrong track to help you meet your dressage goals. Glad your horse is coming home soon.

With an ASB, or any smart, game, go-horse like them, your best bet is to channel what he's giving you. Yes, the looking, the dancing feet, the go-go-go energy are disconcerting, and definitely not what you want when you're trying to accomplish something quiet, relaxed, controlled, and specific (i.e. dressage elements), but you can't get in a fight about it. Heavy rein work (the crank & yank) isn't going to get you there. Quiet, steady, firm hands that are quick to reward will serve you better.

A Saddlebred needs direction and constant reassurance, or you get hollow, tense, and UP (which a lot of people would call spook, but it's really a natural state for an ASB!) They need to know, a lot more than a lot of breeds, that you know what you're doing and that you'll get them through. Push the quickness/tension/spooky forward into a controlled, large circle, then reward immediately when he comes down, even the slightest increment, from the tense/hollow/up state. You've got to be skilled and fast with your aids and rewards, and I mean lightning fast with the reward. Ultimately, he wants to please, but his own nervous energy can get in the way, so you've got to be very, very good and very, very consistent. Close all the doors but the one you want, and throw a party when he goes through it.

It's constant work; it's a long time in development, and there are no shortcuts. An ASB is smart and full of courage, but that also means that they will demand the same from you, and will be a challenge until they are certain you are good enough for them. You will for a long, long time (and often ever-after) need to demonstrate to him that you are smart and courageous enough for him while you're in the saddle.

Reward his best and channel his worst, and he will come to understand which you want, and which puts you together as a team.

[slc2]

Standing flexions is something I'd never do with a horse like this, rabicon. Ever.

The whole thing with these horses is getting their neck stretched out in front of them, instead of in your lap.

[Petstorejunkie]

No, not always.. Trainer will ORS when the horse starts off at a faster speed than what he's asked.
:eek::eek:(this is in the dressage forum right?.... okay :eek:) Time for a new trainer. you dont adjust caydence with a one rein stop, good gawd! the rider needs to soften and ask for an adjustment gradually so that the horse never giraffes. Secondly the rider needs to be extra careful and sensitive that they are not setting up the horse for failure (which i am also suspecting) What is happening with your horse in this trainer's hands could take YEARS to undo and correct.
this person sounds like they have dealt with too many lobotomized QH's to deal with your sensitive, intelligent horse.

[Petstorejunkie]

Reward his best and channel his worst, and he will come to understand which you want, and which puts you together as a team.
very wise words. you summed it up well :yes:

[FatDinah]

Once you have him home, I would back WAY up in training and get this horse some confidence back.
Go back to long lining and stay there until you have him moving calmly through transitions and relaxing.

[goeslikestink]

Once you have him home, I would back WAY up in training and get this horse some confidence back.
Go back to long lining and stay there until you have him moving calmly through transitions and relaxing.

yeap yeap and more yeap yeaps -----

poor horse op if you dont listen the horse will end up being a git as thats what this trianer is teaching him now
and if you wanting to dressage you havent a hope in hell if you dont get this horse back asap as like tomorrow and then find s decent dressage trianer which are all listed with associations and clubs linked to the US FEI

[ASBnTX]

Thank you all!!! I have learned a lot about why this just all felt NQR. He is coming home on Saturday, and there's no further training being done. My poor baby...I'm going to give him a few days to decompress, then start groundwork up again, and go from there. I also have a USDF "L" instructor whom I'll be working with when he is home. My horse is so smart and very eager to please, so I'm confident that we'll be able to get him back on track.

[Auventera Two]

I've used the ORS to save my biscuits in a bad situation, but never as some kind of "training tool." Yeah you have to teach it first, and yeah a correct ORS disengages the hindquarters - not just reefs the head around to the knee. But to use it when the horse just gets looky or high headed??? :confused: :no: That makes no sense to me.

[esdressage]

Not only is it punishing him for going forward, but it's going to pop a shoulder way out. He needs to learn that forward and straight is GOOD, and that he can RELAX into the contact as he moves ahead, not get yanked around. I think there's a sidebar in Dressage Today this month all about forward from the start being so important!!

That said, te one rein stop isn't really a bad thing IMO. I think horses should learn what it is in case you ever need it, especially if you also ride "out" a lot. From what I understand, if a horse is bolting and has never done a one rein stop, and you suddenly crank their head around to try to stop them (the only way to do it sometimes, when they're really out of control), they can easily fall FAST on that popped out shoulder and you can imagine the rest. Ack. If they've schooled it a few times (enough to have it committed to memory) they'll stop safely.

That said, I don't think it needs to be schooled more than a handful of times, especially on a green dressage prospect. Forward, straight, relaxed, and not punished with the hand is key.

[ASBnTX]

I have a video of the last training session...I'm almost scared to post it though. He was extremely wound up with the wind blowing 40 mph+

[ASBnTX]

There's a pretty decent spook about halfway through...he recovered from the spook and went back to check it out later. He's naturally a very "looky" horse, but this day he was VERY nervous to start. He did spook at a long piece of grass later, that I didn't get on tape :) Part of it I'm sure is that this trainer also rides him defensively, and has said that he "expects" him to spook at certain things :no: You can see there is a lot of bending, small circles, but he does let him move out some of the time. I noticed he gets quick and very hollow when he spots something that he's nervous about heading towards. Typically if I notice that happening, I would make gradual circles towards said object instead of facing it head on. They were working on post-to-post exercises that day.

[Ambrey]

How many rides are on him at this point?

He is just so cute :)

[ASBnTX]

How many rides are on him at this point?

10-12 :) It's been difficult to be consistent because we've had a very stormy Spring. A lot of rain and too much mud to ride a very, very green horse. So he might get three days in a row in, then have to take off for four, etc. I'm actually looking forward to Summer to get a break from all the wind and rain.

[Petstorejunkie]

someone with that equitation accepts money for training? Really? slumped over like a turtle hit by a car with their legs all contracted and drawn up or better yet, skiing?!?!?. eesh, i'm in the wrong business :lol:.
I am very glad your horse is home with you now... He may be a lovely man in person, and maybe that's what people want in QH breaking he's used to, i dont know but he wouldnt last 5 minutes on my horse before he dumped him. Equitation IS everything and if he rides like that he's not teaching your horse the correct aides... which will lead to YOU compensating and now not only to you have a screwed up horse, but your equitation is screwed too.
Your horse looks like a LOVELY lovely horse, i am sure you'll do great things with him.

[ASBnTX]

Your horse looks like a LOVELY lovely horse, i am sure you'll do great things with him
Thank you. He is a lovely horse and I'm very much looking forward to him being home.

[katarine]

10-12 rides on a green bean done wrong won't be the end of time. Just get the horse home and away from the Clinton-ite- the likes of which have No Clue what to do with a goey horse - and pretend none of it happened. Go forward from here and don't use this trainer again :) it'll be fine, but he's got no clue how to ride a horse.

[buck22]

what a lovely lovely horse you have.

all this talk about asb's is really piquing my interest in the breed too.

[ASBnTX]

all this talk about asb's is really piquing my interest in the breed too.
They are wonderful!!! Personality galore! You'll find a lot of ASB advocates here if you look around :)

[Mozart]

are you eventually hoping to use this horse for dressage? if so, i would change trainers now.

Allow me to join the chorus here. This is not appropriate training for a horse intended for dressage. I don't think the breed of the horse has anything to do with it. I didn't even know what a ORS was until I started reading this board; in 34 years of riding I have never needed one. Pulley rein works just fine.

[JB]

I have to admit the video wasn't nearly as bad as I was expecting :lol:

Your horse is a DOLL, and he's SPOTTED! :D I may just some take him home with me ;)

Many, many Western trainers ride like this, and are very good at what they do. Some of them can put some good basic dressage-appropriate training into a greenie beanie. Some cannot - they are more suited for, well, something else :winkgrin: Not necessarily in a bad way, just...not dressage training.

I saw no point in a lot of that small circling, other than starting to teach the really bad habit of popping the outside shoulder.

I loved what I saw in the short time where the horse was relaxed enough AND had a long enough rein to stretch forward - so cute!!!

This trainer may be great for another discipline, but he's not doing this horse any favors :no:

Now, bring him to me and he can de-stress here :D

[twofatponies]

http://sharing.theflip.com/session/206aeb6121eeffc5fbdd39c8a414ca81/video/3881948

There's a pretty decent spook about halfway through...he recovered from the spook and went back to check it out later. He's naturally a very "looky" horse, but this day he was VERY nervous to start. He did spook at a long piece of grass later, that I didn't get on tape :) Part of it I'm sure is that this trainer also rides him defensively, and has said that he "expects" him to spook at certain things :no: You can see there is a lot of bending, small circles, but he does let him move out some of the time. I noticed he gets quick and very hollow when he spots something that he's nervous about heading towards. Typically if I notice that happening, I would make gradual circles towards said object instead of facing it head on. They were working on post-to-post exercises that day.

Before I read everyone else's feedback, just from the gut - I didn't see anything crazy in that video. The horse didn't look very nervous. He wasn't a giraffe. He looked green, doing real basic stuff. He spooked once. It wasn't a huge deal. Sure, he wasn't going all perfectly like an advanced horse - he looked like a typical green horse who was somewhat clueless, fumbling a little hear and there, getting a touch distracted now and then.

Now I'll go read the other posts and see what my blind eyes missed!! :D

[esdressage]

Cute horse! I think you'll do very well with him. I say that since you have him home, just find a good instructor to work with you on his training from here on out.

I don't see an ounce of naughtiness in your horse from that video, just a horse who's very willing and ready to start a lovely dressage career! Congrats, and keep us posted! :)

[slc2]

Good lord, that is the kindest horse the good lord ever put breath into. Cute as heck too with half of him white and half brown.

You take him home and have a world of fun with him - he is a SAINT. That guy is leaning forward, leaning way way sideways, almost making the little horse fall down, putting his head on his knee, and the horse is just like, 'ok, sure, I can deal with that!'

The rider is very crooked - he leans into the inside, to the outside, the little horse tries to compensate. What an angel. I am REALLY concerned about circling such a young horse in such tiny circles. That is NOT good. He should be out on some big circles, he should not be worked like that, not if you want him to last.

The other thing is, don't sit the trot on this horse, not now, even get up in a little light half seat at the canter. He really is starting to sink his back down under the weight of the rider, don't get that started. Stay off his back til it is stronger, and use a nice saddle pad. He is a slimmer type of horse and needs time for his back to develop.

Horse looks very compact and like he has tons of natural balance. He would probably be a real pleasure to canter too, doesn't look like he would be at all off balance.

The poor little horse just spooks the tiniest bit (and it actually looked like the RIDER spooked him, not something he saw) and he gets circled and circled and circled. Why not just go on and act like it was nothing? Give him a pat and say, 'oh well, never mind'. If a real young horse spooks and you make a huge deal out of it, it gives them less confidence. If they spook to the side, such as in off the rail, just leg yield them back out toward the rail (even babies can learn a kind of 'move over there' sort of leg yield, no big deal, just push them over with the inside leg at the girth - not held further back- and be sure your other leg isn't squeezing the horse, keep your other leg a little 'asleep' - if they can 'get over' in their stall they can do a little baby leg yield) and act like, 'oh, did you spook, I didn't notice'. DON'T grab their mouth and don't make a big deal. ESPECIALLY don't circle them in off the track near where they spooked. Just go on, no big deal.

For rider induced spooks, you can sit on him and fiddle with the saddle and slap your thigh and wiggle around, and each time you do, give him a carrot. Just pat him and wiggle and swing your legs, and slap the saddle, and give him carrots and apples. You can start from the ground if you prefer, slap the saddle, shove a carrot in his mouth. Amazing how fast that works, LOL. Once they are used to that, you can start wiggling around while riding, first at walk then trot.

When riding, if they just squirt forward without going sideways, you don't really have to do anything except just not grab their mouth. Give them a pat and say, that's all right dude, relax.

I can't believe a young horse is so gentle and so good. He is WONDERFUL.

I don't think he looks a bit nervous. He's just 'observant', LOL. In dressage you want a horse that picks his head up, looks around, is active.

But this horse is actually very, very fluid and rhythmic. And I think he would learn to reach with his legs and use his body if the rider isn't leaning forward and to the side, and he is trained to keep his shoulders in front of his haunches (ie, the dressage type of straight).

What a lovely, lovely animal.

If you don't get some help with a good dressage trainer, you can certainly get difficulties with a young horse, especially if you haven't started quite a few of them. Just make sure you have someone helping you, you can either take lessons or have the trainer ride the horse, depending on how you feel about it, but be involved- be present when the trainer rides, ask questions, and try to ride as much as you can yourself.

[cb06]

Oh, he's adorable!

The spook I saw looked like about 10% normal green horse willies and about 90% the horse reacting to the rider grabbing his mouth, digging in his heels and jerking his face around in a little circle :eek:
...lots of unneeded drama...the rider should help build confidence, not take it away.
Luckily, you sound like you have very good instincts, and have gotten some great advice here. He looks like a lovely, kind young horse. :yes:

[monstrpony]

If there had been a properly taught and executed ORS available, that whole little spook episode would have been over in about 5 seconds, and the horse would have been settled, going straight and back in work. Although, honestly, I don't feel that little spook justified a ORS at all--rider should have just seen it coming, sent the horse forward and given him something to do to get him busy and out of trouble, and all would be fine.

I agree that this trainer has a few things going okay, and will probably continue to get away with taking people's money for starting young horses, and the world will not end, but I wouldn't use him to start a horse I valued, and I doubt many knowledgable folks would.

This horse may be the type that needs to be kept occupied, with circles and bending lines and little lateral steps and transitions, but much of the work on this video is too small and tight for comfort. He IS an athletic little horse and so they get away with it, but it isn't helping him settle and feel comfortable and confident in his work. Not major dammage, it just could be done better.

Nice horse, though, very nice fellow.

[Tiffani B]

There are some videos from Clem Lee, a Saddlebred trainer, on his website here: http://sunsetfarmsaddlebreds.com/trainer%20tips.htm

One of them is about the ORS. He teaches it mainly to teach a young horse to stand still (mounting, dismounting, and halting) but once they understand those things, it's used more for lateral flexion (but not endless circling). There are other videos on there about basic ground manners, backing a horse, etc. Some techniques I've never used or even seen, but they make sense and work for him.

Anyways, Saddlebreds are ALERT. They are not spooky - I have never in my life had a Saddledbred take off at a dead run out of fear. They look, they evaluate, and most times, they go inspect it up close. They might take a step or two sideways, they might scoot a few steps, they might even turn around "just in case." But they don't, as a rule, bolt. It's not in their nature. They're way too smart for that.

Your horse is wonderful - I have to agree with what everyone has said so far. Fluid mover, saintly personality and has a TON of potential. Let him learn to go forward with confidence. Circling is fine if they are large and have a POINT. Don't circle because you don't know how to ride him (it seems like that's why the trainer is circling - he doesn't know what else to do). Don't bother with the ORS unless you genuinely need it - and I would bet my pitifully low salary that you never will.

[saltheart]

What slc said. In big bold letters.

Also - there is a very good REASON you don't teach reinback until the horse is schooling 2nd level!!!! And this guy's idea of rb is to lean all his weight on the poor baby's mouth and yank until it happens - AND it was applied as a correction. Yikes! DO NOT EVER teach a young dressage horse to BACK UP as a response to CONTACT. Jeeezus Criminy! :eek:

[ASBnTX]

Thank you all SO MUCH for the very kind words about my horse!!! I adore him and do feel awful about the training situation. For the riding as well as any damage to my horses confidence as well as mine. This trainer thinks my horse is borderline psycho. He actually told me that he's the kind of horse that makes him think about retiring. Not what I need to hear at all, as this is my first green, green, green horse (I have ridden for 15 years, and some greenish ones, but not started my own). That's when I decided to bring him home ASAP. Yes he has a tiny spook in him, and yes he is looky, but he's FOUR and a very alert-type of breed. When he spooks at home I just smile and pat him, and he's immediately ok. He just needs to mature and gain confidence. He really is so sweet.
I do have a trainer at home, barn owner actually, who is wonderful and started many babies. I also am going to take lessons twice a month (more if the budget allows) with an awesome Silver & Bronze medalist USDF "L" trainer. I'm very excited about that!
So thank you again, as this trainer has really made me question myself and my horse. He also said that he's the kind of horse that I'll never be able let my guard down with, and that it will be a long, long, long time before I can trust him out on a hack. That video was actually the worst I've seen from him on my visits, so I'm not sure where he gets off saying those things. Especially when one's confidence is SO important. Is he bucking, rearing, bolting??? NO :confused: Why would you say those things?
All of your nice words about my baby really helps!!! Plus you all have given me so much good info and a great idea of where to go from here. BIG THANK YOU!

[Ambrey]

Thank you all SO MUCH for the very kind words about my horse!!! I adore him and do feel awful about the training situation. For the riding as well as any damage to my horses confidence as well as mine. This trainer thinks my horse is borderline psycho.

What breeds does he usually work with? I thought you said quite a few dressage trainers in your area use him to start horses- I'm surprised that he feels that way if he's used to working with "hotter breeds."

But you know, trainer/horse fit is an issue. I don't think it has to reflect badly on the trainer, but trainers should be able to just say that their personalities clash with the horse and they aren't the appropriate person to do the work.

Your horse strikes me as kind of nervous and excitable- and very high headed. I hope he turns out to be like my similarly excitable pony- he plans all of his spooks very carefully to take you with him when he skidaddles, and manages to charm his way into your heart to the point that you forgive his occasional obnoxiousness ;)

(p.s. 15 rides isn't going to permanently damage your horse, and he was never intended to be the long-term trainer, right? You'll do great :) Just wait until the first time you're able to get him relaxed and steady, you'll feel like you've won the lottery!)

[esdressage]

He actually told me that he's the kind of horse that makes him think about retiring.

You know what, I feel like this guy's all about the drama and trying to make it seem like he's doing you and your horse a huge favor. That's a bunch of bull! Your horse is showing the most patient, lovely attitude in this video. Maybe he should go ahead and retire, tee hee.

Don't feel awful, though. You employed a 'professional' because you didn't feel comfortable starting your horse on your own. You realized he isn't who you want, and you're moving on. It'll all work out in the end, so just look at the positive: You have a GREAT horse, and you two have years and years of future together. Enjoy them! :)

[Petstorejunkie]

:confused: Why would you say those things?

Because your saintly intelligent baby is beyond his expertise and instead of saying so he's blaming the horse.

[bludejavu]

I used to send my young horses to a "cowboy" type trainer like you just did. I just wanted them under saddle and then I would bring them back home. I found I was doing myself and my horses no favors by going with the NH types - they don't understand the Saddlebred mentality, tended to try and make all horses fit into one mold, and they try to force things that might work on typical stock breeds but it doesn't work at all on Saddlebreds. I shopped around and found a really good Saddlebred trainer who was willing to back horses and that was a much better solution. I haven't had any young ones for awhile that needed backing but when and if I do, I sure wont go the cowboy route ever again. I didn't watch the video as it wasn't playing right for me, but if you have a spotted Saddlebred, that's "my favorite color" too :winkgrin:. We have lots of spotted ASB's - love them!

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

A couple thoughts. First, why all the tiny unbalanced circles? I actually didn't think the horse was forward. Second, horse is a good horse and I agree he won't be "ruined" but the rider is not encouraging forward and steady movement at all.

Third. One rein stop is an emergency stop where you do a pulley rein. It is freaky to do on a true runaway because you feel like you are going to flip the horse on its side. Unfortunately, I learned how to ride at basically a sale barn, so I can attest to the effectiveness of a one-rein/pulley rein stop on a real flat out gallop/bit grabbing runaway--assuming you can get up the guts up to even do it (sometimes I just held on in two point and waited it out--call me chicken).

I don't think of what Clinton Anderson does as a one rein stop (maybe he calls it that?) --it is a one rein "check" of the forward movement. I've only seen him on RFD a couple times, but he was retraining an OTTB and it WAS interesting. I think it is probably very effective if done correctly and (and this is the key) done on a horse that is being trained to ride always on a long rein. In otherwords slow gait and no contact. I imagine it would work well on a western pleasure horse...

I tried it on my dressage horse for sh$ts and giggles one day and it did work (I didn't do circles with it though). By the end of the ride I "loped" around on a long rein--this is on a horse that tends to get hot or keyed up during canter work--sensitive thoroughbred, so, dare I admit?-it was kind of fun. That said, I wouldn't think it makes a bit of sense for a young horse that needs to learn to accept contact and move forward.

Flexion at the stop is a different thing entirely.

I want to see a video later on too--what a cute horse!

[JB]

I used to send my young horses to a "cowboy" type trainer like you just did. I just wanted them under saddle and then I would bring them back home. I found I was doing myself and my horses no favors by going with the NH types - they don't understand the Saddlebred mentality, tended to try and make all horses fit into one mold, and they try to force things that might work on typical stock breeds but it doesn't work at all on Saddlebreds.
Having that mentality puts NH in general in a bad light ;) A GOOD trainer, NH or not, takes each individual into account. There are a huge # of Western trainers who try to make all horses be like a QH. There are ASB/NSH-specific trainers who would do no dressage horse any good by trying to make that horse a show-type ASB/NSH. There are a huge # of any given X trainers who try to make all horses fit their mold.

Those are not GOOD trainers - they are trainers for a certain type of horse. A GOOD NH trainer takes a WB or ASB or NSH or QH or TB and deals with the horse they have, using as many techniques as they have under their belt, to create a quite, soft, supple, forward horse. That's no different than any other "type" of trainer.

ORS vs pulley rein - not the same thing. Never try a ORS on a horse who's already bolted - you'll flip him. A ORS is just that - ONE rein, pulling the horse's head around. A pulley rein is setting one hand on the wither area, grabbing mane if necessary, and pulling up and back with the other rein. That does not cause or allow the horse's head/neck to bend around much, if any at all, because the set hand prevents that.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

JB--I think ORS is being referred to as both in this thread. I actually agree with you completely, even though I called it the same thing above, because I was referring to both as a ORS. Sorry if I made it more confusing. I did mean just a pulley rein for a runaway. I used to refer to that as a ORS. I'm new to the Clinton Anderson ORS.

Pulley rein is still freaky though...maybe it's because you are going so fast...

[esdressage]

I was referring to it as a pulley rein as well when I mentioned it - that's the only kind I've ever known. I didn't realize that Clinton has "reinvented" it with his own version of the ORS?

[bludejavu]

Having that mentality puts NH in general in a bad light ;) A GOOD trainer, NH or not, takes each individual into account. There are a huge # of Western trainers who try to make all horses be like a QH. There are ASB/NSH-specific trainers who would do no dressage horse any good by trying to make that horse a show-type ASB/NSH. There are a huge # of any given X trainers who try to make all horses fit their mold.

Those are not GOOD trainers - they are trainers for a certain type of horse. A GOOD NH trainer takes a WB or ASB or NSH or QH or TB and deals with the horse they have, using as many techniques as they have under their belt, to create a quite, soft, supple, forward horse. That's no different than any other "type" of trainer.

Yes - I agree, which is why I was very open minded about NH trainers at the start of my search for a good NH/cowboy trainer. However, while the theory is wonderful, the sad truth is that it is very hard to find someone who really adheres to good old honest horsemanship principles which is what NH is all about (or should be all about). I did finally find a very good reining trainer who had a family background in Saddlebreds here locally. He had worked other ASB's and I truly liked him, but...he went and moved to Texas :(.

The long and short of it is - if your gut tells you that you don't feel comfortable with something a trainer is doing, don't ignore your instincts. To the OP - I'm glad you're bringing your boy home - you can stop worrying about ORS and get on with his greenie training.

[katarine]

trainer is a loser
he's not a dangerous horse
he hasn't done any permanent damage
the sooner that horse comes home the better
trainer is a loser

[narcisco]

The trainer is doing a credible job, although I don't like the style or agree with so many small circles.

The horse is very cute, green as a stick, and needs about 100 rides before anything is confirmed.

So, if you bring the horse home, plan on about 100 more rides from a professional, unless you are one.

[bort84]

The trainer may not be awful for the right discipline (maybe western pleasure?) But a lot of people used to a more WP type horse may not have the easiest time understanding how a saddlebred thinks. There are exceptions, but most breeds think a bit differently than other breeds, and then each individual of the breed is going to be a little different too. I started out riding arabians, and found that they don't think like saddlebreds which don't think like quarter horses which don't think like TBs etc - they often require a different technique and have a different learning style.

So, perhaps this guy just really doesn't know how to deal with a forward horse that is alert and very sensitive to what his rider is doing. ASBs will generally channel their "spook" wonderfully if you show them where you want that energy to go. A WP trainer may really just not like that kind of forward attitude and the sensitivity that a lot of ASBs have (there's probably a reason they usually work WP type horses - they probably prefer that attitude). There's definitely a learning curve when working with a new type of thinker, and some people don't like that. I do, but this guy sounds like he's not interested in working outside of his comfort zone.

Honestly, it seems weird that this horse would make a trainer consider retiring... He doesn't look all that difficult. It also surprises me that he often does colt breaking for people if this horse is a toughie for him, haha. Oh well. He's gotten some of the kinks out and hasn't ridden him all that much. You'll have a fun horse to bring along when he gets home.

[monstrpony]

Alright, once more, all together now ...

One Rein Stop: horse is taught from the get-go to give to the rein, and to step over with his haunches in response to the leg (or to pressure asking him to move over). The step with the haunches is to be with the hind leg to the inside of the bend stepping across in front of the opposite hind leg. The horse's head is not pulled around; the horse gives to the rein and follows the rein around; there is *no* tension in the horse's neck.

This is practiced frequently until it is very fluid, while the horse is not bothered and is in a relaxed frame of mind. The horse will not, in fact, step across behind correctly unless he is comfortable enough to be giving up his flight instinct to a stronger leader, that being the rider or handler on the ground. The manuver is practiced until it becomes automatic.

When the horse is in a troubling situation under saddle, the rider puts his leg on, asking the horse to give his haunches (give up the flight response by crossing the hind legs) and give his head and neck (as part of the aid to direct him to give the haunches). The horse's response to this request is "oh, this I understand, I trust my leader to get me out of trouble, I can relax" and the anxiety is instantly defused. Horse stops, rider rubs the horse, and goes on about their business before the trouble started.

The trainer in the video is (1) too slow to start the ORS; (2) does it in the incorrect direction, based on the horse's shape when it spooks; (3) has not established the correct footwork on the horse's part enough for the exercise to be effective (horse does not cross enough to show that it has given up it's flight response); and (4) takes too long to get the job done. The effort is totally wasted and thus totally ineffective. Most of his circle work is either too large, in the case of the ORS, or too small, thus destroying the horse's balance. And because he is pulling on the rein, rather than drawing on the horse with the rein, he further undermines the horse's balance. Lots of homework missing here. He Just Doesn't Get It, even tho he goes thru the motions. No wonder he has no luck with anything but a sedate and relatively stiff QH type horse.

[ASBnTX]

http://sharing.theflip.com/session/a1d264eb83bd4c43b066268e138f5ecc/video/3733359

Here's the previous visit with some canter work at about 1:30 into the video. Don't know if you can tell much from this, but he actually looked more relax back then. The trainer seemed much more positive then, but the last time I went was when he was complaining. He said that he's pretty nervous to start with every ride. I'm thinking he is just having anxiety about being pulled around in tiny circles :(

[JoZ]

Visiting here, and choosing to comment because I had a non-western horse of the HOT and FORWARD variety started by a cowboy (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2374713750098982996dKjxQh).

His posture was much like this trainer's. I don't think equitation matters to the horse a bit. I don't care what saddle they use or even (within reason) what techniques they use. Though I will admit my cowboy was what I'd call a "real" cowboy, not a NH, one-rein-stop kind of cowboy.

The biggest thing I see with yours is discomfort (the trainer's, not the horse's!). The trainer doesn't like all the forward. THAT is what I think is a risk. Not the ORS, not the posture, not the saddle... the risk of shutting down the forward motion.

I'm not gonna be a dressage rider of any note though I like to pretend on occasion. I almost wish my cowboy HAD taken a bit of the giddy-up-and-go out of my mare! But I know I'm in the minority there. Don't regret your choice, but do recognize why it can't become a habit. You don't take nice forward motion (even if tense) and shut it down with endless little circles.

[slc2]

My most recent experience with riding an American Saddlebred was bring it on, bring it on. Bring on the spook, bring on the occasional squirt forward, because oh my heavens, isn't it nice to just float along on a horse that is so balanced and requires so little leg, and learns so quick to go off your seat and a very, very light hand.

[Tiffani B]

Yes, Saddlebreds definitely require very little leg! I think that's why Saddle Seat equitation has morphed over the decades to the extreme it is at now - lower leg completely off the horse from the knee down, using primarily your seat and thigh to communicate with the horse, and calf/heel/spur is for emphasis only and rarely needed on a finished horse. Saddlebreds are very very sensitive.

I think other breeds are just as sensitive (literally speaking - they can "feel/hear/see" the same thing) but they don't REACT to it, either as quickly, or at all. Saddlebreds feel it and react immediately. Fortunately they are intelligent enough, and curious enough, not to react in a "fear" manner but in more of a "whatisthatlet'sgocheckitout!" manner LOL. (All the while with one hoof facing the other way, juuuuuust in case LOL!)

[bludejavu]

My most recent experience with riding an American Saddlebred was bring it on, bring it on. Bring on the spook, bring on the occasional squirt forward, because oh my heavens, isn't it nice to just float along on a horse that is so balanced and requires so little leg, and learns so quick to go off your seat and a very, very light hand.

Wow - you really said it all!!:yes:

Unfortunately, my nearing 50 year old body can't take the young and "totally new to saddle stuff" horse anymore - I like the game ones who do the little scoots and spooks and yet have enough experience under saddle to know it's all in fun and not really truly SCARY. I love the power steering that comes with a Saddlebred that knows it's stuff.

[slc2]

Those little scoots that 'my' saddlebred did, we called 'Power Surges', LOL. So funny.

I think the thing I loved the most was those ears never once went back. Always forward, just tip back very quickly every once in a while to check and see if I was still on, lol! Just seemed like such a happy, happy horse.

The thing that amazed me is they ride them up and down the barn aisle in the saddle seat style, LOL. You had to watch when you walked in the door, you might get mowed down!

[Tiffani B]

Yup, gotta love the aisleway workouts! It used to be a lot of the old time training barns didn't have arenas, they just went up and down the aisle. Unfortunately, turning properly isn't something we really work on (nor is it really judged - we tend to focus on the straightaways) - which is embarrassingly obvious when you watch video of us showing. :o

[partlycloudy]

I found myself making noises of disgust while watching that video (about the guy on top, not the horse, who looks very nice). He has no concept of riding a horse forward into the bridle, no concept of using the outside rein and yuck, yuck, yuck, backing up a greennie like that! Makes me want to stab my eyes out!
Too bad he didn't retire....horses all over would rejoice.
And equitation while riding youngsters is so important! You've got to sit as balanced and quietly as possible...to make their job easier and enjoyable. not flopping all over like a sack of potatoes!
I have a morgan pony here who could show that guy what a great trainer he is....he would get to practice his ORS for sure:winkgrin:

[slc2]

These guys sometimes serve a useful purpose. They get on the horse and get those first few rides out of the way when the owner is hesitant to. The key is to just get them OFF the horse asap, LOL!

We had one back east....I swear that guy was three sheets to the wind every time he came to back a horse. It was amazing. I have NEVER seen anyone so loose and laah-deeh-dah on a horse. He must have fallen off one of them about five times in a row...and...the horse was just standing there...LOL. Looking down at him, 'whatcha doin' down there?'. And to my amazement, we were told he was a former engineering school student...engineering school must take a heavy toll!

[partlycloudy]

Yeah, they're called 'crash-test dummies'

[cb06]

http://sharing.theflip.com/session/a1d264eb83bd4c43b066268e138f5ecc/video/3733359

Here's the previous visit with some canter work at about 1:30 into the video. Don't know if you can tell much from this, but he actually looked more relax back then. The trainer seemed much more positive then, but the last time I went was when he was complaining. He said that he's pretty nervous to start with every ride. I'm thinking he is just having anxiety about being pulled around in tiny circles :(

I think you are right. The fact that the horse is getting 'more' nervous with each ride is a red flag...and likely the one lingering problem you may have to 'undo' when he gets home. It is hard to know what has happened when you weren't there to watch, but if the rider was harsh with his hands or heels, yanking the horse around in a little circle every time the green bean stepped sideways, he likely only escalated things. Now instead of just a little spook, you are going to get evasion and fear of the rider on top of that because the horse has gotten increasingly wary and untrusting of the rider.

[slc2]

"you are going to get..."

and YOU are going to scare this poor woman to death. And besides, I think you're wrong.

Look at the horse! He's going around in basically what is a big pasture, the LAST place most people would ride a baby the first few times, and doing exactly what he's told every second with a slouching, leaning rider who is all over him. He's being wonderful. Frankly I can't believe how good he is for a just broke in youngster. There's all kinds of things to spook at outside (including the rider) and the whole time he spooked ONCE. I think the most impressive thing is the rider has the horse backing up by just pulling on the reins as hard as he can, and the horse actually just gives til his chin is practically on his chest, then backs up instead of rearing up, like most youngsters would. He's wonderfully cooperative.

This horse is going to be delighted with a quieter rider on his back. Just make sure the little guy gets plenty of exercise and turnout, and take lessons. Keep him moving forward, don't hold him back in a walk or make him turn and back up so much. Use the forward motion to keep your horse loose and concentrating on his job, horses this like motion, they are happiest when in motion and establishing a rhythm, it keeps them occupied and content and loosens up their muscles. Circles are ok, but should be about sixty feet across, not six. Doing figures like large circles, turns and centerlines helps keep youngsters focused and interested. Relax and enjoy your horse.

[rabicon]

Adorable nice baby. He is a very nice baby and is going to give you alot. :yes: Rider not so great, I have to say he looks like an ole' country boy that really has never been trained but was raised breaking horses and well thats all he's good for. Maybe he can train a western pleasure horse, not to sure, doesn't look like it but you never know. He has put a decent backing on your young guy so you can feel better about getting on him yourself. Got out any bucks etc... He doesn't even correctly do the ORS either. I don't know what he's doing but its not a ORS. I still say lateral flexion is good at a stand still. We do it everytime I get on. No my horse is not a top advanced dressage horse but for a year of doing dressage and getting 74's in intro and 65 in training (canter is just now developing carring power) I don't think its hurt anything at all and he is set high. You are going to do well with this guy but now its just time to find a dressage trainer to take you the rest of the way. Stay away from those small circles. If the horse spooks send it forward or circle in large circles at least 20M. I say this because you are changing the horses mind and making him think about you again because you changed it up, so that way he isn't thinking so much about the scary monster. Don't ORS on spooks, they are for bolting and they are used as soon as you feel the horse spook and start to speed up. You really don't want to use it full speed ahead so you have to be quicker than the horse and this trainer surely isn't :lol: Good luck.

[slc2]

Before we got our pony we saw the coolest thing - a spotted saddlebred filly that looked like she was going to go about 14.1 hands, but she wasn't slim and light, she looked like a five gaited horse (and I guess they thought she would be five gaited). The one I fell in love with a few years ago, Rodney, was going to mature at about 14.2 1/2 hands. A very very dark brown, almost black, with four little white socks and a huge blaze. Some time ago I saw a black and white pony saddlebred, possibly it was a cross between a saddlebred and a hackney pony. About 13.2 hands. Wow.

[ASBnTX]

He is a very good baby. I knew that, but I let this guy shake my confidence a little. He is actually doing wonderfully when you look at what all is going on and how the weather was (SO WINDY that day). I am picking him up tomorrow, YAY!!!!!:D He will be so happy to be home and see his buddies. I do turn him out on 8 acres 24/7, except for bad weather. He would not be happy otherwise...he's quite gregarious! I can't wait to give him lots of cookies and brushing :) (trainer has a strict no cookie policy :( ). He LOVES grooming time, it's the only time he really chills and stops acting like Curious George.
What do you all think would be the best plan when I get him home? Should I give him a few days to just relax and decompress? Or start off with a few days of groundwork to re-establish my voice cues and that forward is ok? Or start riding him right away? My dressage instructor won't be available until Saturday a week..so maybe I should do some long-lining and wait till she's back to ride?

[cb06]

..definitely not trying to scare the OP, I think she will be fine....I just need some more caffeine before I type...;)
My only point was that what we see in the video, and the comments the trainer has made just don't jive...makes you wonder why?

Give him cookies and a big hug when he gets home :yes:

[Ambrey]

Yeah, they're called 'crash-test dummies'

Exactly! And then once they prove the horse isn't a nutjob, the trainer and owner can ride!

[Ambrey]

..definitely not trying to scare the OP, I think she will be fine....I just need some more caffeine before I type...;)
My only point was that what we see in the video, and the comments the trainer has made just don't jive...makes you wonder why?

Because trainer isn't used to tense, anxious horses and doesn't know what to do with a horse that expresses extra energy in that way?

[slc2]

Absolutely not, OP. No days to 'settle in' and no days of 'ground work'.

Get on your horse.

Longe him, turn him out, and get on him. If you are going to be really nervous and conservative about this, you are going to have problems. Give your horse exercise, plenty of it, and keep him in a daily program.

Don't exhaust him, but get him in a program. A routine he can rely on. Every day. There isn't a single green young horse in the world that does well on an on again - off again program. Get on your horse, every single day, walk trot and canter, and get off. Twenty or thirty minutes, a routine he can rely on. Otherwise you are going to wind up right where you started - scared, and looking for someone else to get on him and take the shtank out of him. Forget the two lessons a month if you are fearful, get help, and often for a while til you feel confident. If you are worried about him, lead him at a brisk, busy busy walk in a circle where you want to ride, then get on him and ride him on that same circle, changing direction frequently. Jogging alongside him is even better. Longeing is great for giving youngsters something to do and some exercise. And be sure he is out there playing with his pals and having fun most of the day - that does wonders for settling them. Riding on a (LARGE!) circle helps many youngsters to concentrate on the rider too but keep changing directions so the muscles on one side of the horse don't get over tired.

[bludejavu]

Slc2 - I'm going to differ with you just a bit but I'll explain my reasoning. I like to give young horses a day or so to settle in and I've never had it backfire on me yet. However, I am privvy to a horrendous accident that happened to my former boss' wife a few years back when she sent her 5 year old QH to a very well known NH clinician/trainer here in the state. My husband trailered the horse for her and brought him back home and that's a whole 'nuther story - another reason for my NH mentality ;).

Anyway, the day she brought him home, on the advice of the trainer, she gave him about an hour to run around his paddock and then rode him. She was alone which was mistake #1. She rode down a dirt rode beside a railroad track which was mistake #2. A train came down the tracks, spooked the horse who we figure either bolted, bucked or both. The next thing she knew, she woke up in the hospital with a cracked skull (no helmet), a broken arm, six broken ribs, a broken collar bone, and a broken ankle, as well as a major concussion. It took her years to recover from that accident.

The accident could have occurred whether she waited to ride or not, but the very next day, the son came and rode the horse and had not one problem with the horse, and the son was not a real experienced rider (the whole family really had no business with green horses).

[slc2]

That isn't really the same thing as getting your horse into a daily, sensible program.

Young horses need routine. Daily. They need to look around at a new place for an hour, at a new place they need to be ridden in a sensible area where they are close to the barn and not having too many trains driven around them.

[bludejavu]

That isn't really the same thing as getting your horse into a daily, sensible program.

I didn't say it was the same thing - no correlation whatsoever to a daily program. I was speaking of time allowed to let a horse settle in after being gone.

In the end, it's up to the OP - OP try working your horse from the ground and if he works well and comfortably, progress from there. Let your horse tell you if he's okay in his surroundings before pushing further.

We Saddlebred folks that are more into saddle seat than dressage do more ground work than under saddle work, particularly in the beginning. We believe it gives horses a firm foundation for saddle work. I'm a big one on long lining, jogging in a jog cart, and lite saddle work - but one thing I definitely agree with slc2 on - a steady and consistent program :yes:.

[slc2]

Sure. And the fact is, most of the problems people have with their young horses, are because they don't have them in a consistent enough program. And too, chances are, the reason the horse went to the breaker in the first place is because he scared the owner. Facts are, too, the reason the horse looks so nice at the breakers is probably because he gets the crap worked out of him there, so let's be practical, and get the horse into a program.

And let's remember, the horse is going back to his home, a place he is familiar with, not a new place, and not so far as we know, a place with trains or with an owner whose first plans for an unfamiliar horse in an unfamiliar place, are to go ride over to the railroad tracks. There ARE barns in the world that have decent spots to work young horses. A familiar paddock, round pen (if not too small) or a small arena is fine.

I'm not so sure the deadest ancient horse in the universe would be 100% reliable around a train, no? So maybe the problem with the case you describe isn't being overly eager to get the horse into a program when it comes home from the trainer, but rather, who it's going home to. I seriously doubt the OP is planning to take this horse for a nature ride next to trains the first day it is home. On the other hand, bringing a young active animal home and letting it build up pent up energy for a while is asking for trouble.

Not only that, it builds it up to more and more of an obstacle in the rider's mind, which is the worst problem with staying off the horse when it comes home. The bigger of a deal you make out of it, the more you put it off, the more likely it is to cause problems - the horse is friskier by then, and the rider is making it into more of a big deal in their mind, making themselves more tense, and the more worried they are, the more likely they will have problems. You can pick a decent place to ride the horse when it comes home, and longe or turnout before you do so.

[ASBnTX]

Um, no roads, trains, or helmetless excursions in our near future ;) He is very comfortable in our covered arena..a little A.D.D and distracted in our outdoor, so I think I'll start in the indoor for awhile.
Yes, he did go to the trainer because I allowed myself to imagine of all the awful things that could happen on those first few rides :no: and wasn't confident with how he would react moving out at a trot or canter. The imagination can be a great or terrible thing. Even though I know that I've prepared him very well for it, including getting on, sitting, walking, and stopping several times last fall. He was great.
Trainer has said he never offered to buck at all. The worst that he's done is spook (just like what was on the video), and small rears at first with those crazy ORS and reinbacks, and no wonder. He said speed control is the biggest thing..when asked to trot he usually goes to a fast trot, same with canter, but that's natural for a horse like him. He's never going to "jog" which is what the trainer said he wanted.

[bludejavu]

On the other hand, bringing a young active animal home and letting it build up pent up energy for a while is asking for trouble.

Okay - one more post then I'm off to buy horsey feed. Slc2 - Do your young horses build up pent up energy in a single day? Mine don't under normal circumstances. What are you feeding that might cause this in your horses?

Yes, a train is a particularly scary creature but it doesn't always take a train to set a young horse off. I agree that a safe place that is a small area is a good place to work a young horse. It doesn't guarantee absolute safety though. I've seen horses spook at DIRT :winkgrin:!

OP - don't mind all this discussion between Slc2 and me - you sound like you've got some good common horse sense from reading your posts - I'm sure you know what your limits are and I wish you much luck.

Off to buy horsey feed...

ETA - sdlebrdgrl - we posted at the same time. His faster gaits might be an effort to balance himself. Young greenies don't always have instant coordination with a rider and they feel more comfortable going faster. As for jogging, any horse can learn to jog - I taught an extremely high strung Saddlebred to jog thru relaxation techniques. He ended up Reserve High Point Western Champ. one year here in the state so don't believe everything you hear. I think your trainer guy was just a little overwhelmed with your greenie's energy level.

[Tiffani B]

Out of curiosity, have you ridden him yourself yet?

If it were my horse, and I were a tad unsure of how he would feel/act, yet fairly sure he is at least SAFE (no rearing, bucking, etc) I would start working him the day after he returns home. I'd give him the first day to settle in, but he'd go to work the following day.

I would start with ground work - long lining or lunging, making sure he understands whoa. I would do about 10-15 minutes of strong trotting and a bit of cantering, mainly to focus the horse, not tire him out, and then get on. Have a friend there, mainly for moral support.

Short ride, maybe 20-30 minutes, doing basics. Walk, trot, big circles, up and down transitions, halts, gentle backing, see what he knows... and no ORSs. ;)

[Ambrey]

Trainer has said he never offered to buck at all. The worst that he's done is spook (just like what was on the video), and small rears at first with those crazy ORS and reinbacks, and no wonder. He said speed control is the biggest thing..when asked to trot he usually goes to a fast trot, same with canter, but that's natural for a horse like him. He's never going to "jog" which is what the trainer said he wanted.

Now your visual is replaced by reality, and you know you are up to the task! I'm sorry, but my 11 year old could have sat that spook (and has! :lol: I swear my pony is your horse with a pony brain and extra hair!). And our trainer tells her, as I'm sure yours will, to stay calm, take charge (recognize that!?), and let it go.

I am thinking, and you can tell me if I'm out in left field, that the large trainer also probably makes your immature little guy feel kind of unbalanced in those small circles and ORS activities. I'm betting if he's gotten light in front that's one reason.

I just think you can do this. Is he going to be a handful while his brain matures? Looks like it! Is he going to be a blast to ride and really mature into himself and be an amazing dressage horse? Yes, I think so!

[ASBnTX]

bludejavu ~ I don't mind the discussion at all. It's very educational :)

I haven't ridden him since he's been with this trainer. Only the 6 or 8 times last fall, and only at a walk. I do plan to always start off with some groundwork to focus him. He has days where he's calm and mellow, even a little lazy, and others where he's high as a kite. The groundwork lets me know how he's feeling that day, and helps to get him focused. I think that's a good thing to do before I get on. The great thing is that very soon it will be summertime in Texas, and those high as a kite days are very rare then :)
I think part of me wanted to give him some rest because I feel badly for putting him through this *traumatic* experience. In truth he'll probably step off the trailer, see his buddies, munch some grass, and forget it ever happened ;)

[katarine]

Go get him Saturday, turn him out to play, and pick up working with him on Sunday.

He's very cute and he'll be fine.

[ASBnTX]

Ambrey ~ I think the large trainer makes my little guy feel like there's a predator on his back trying to take him down, or at least that's what it looks like to me.
I've spent A LOT of time building this horses confidence and trust in me, so I don't expect that he'll have the same concern with me. When I got him a year ago, he was a never-been-handled TOTAL SPAZ. Leading him through the barn, fly spray, baths, clipping, were all quite interesting!!
Yes, I do feel confident that I can handle it and trust that he will do awesome! I just have to kick out those nagging little "what-if's" :) Fact is I have come off a horse a few times over the years, and never hurt myself any worse than I have playing catch with my husband (broke a finger on a nerf football..don't ask ;))

[Ambrey]

But I bet when you DO come off, it's because of something dumb (like you weren't paying attention and he walked away while you were mounting) rather than anything crazy ;)

[ASBnTX]

Uh yeah.. I actually came off of him like the third time I got on :) We had just been following the rail and doing direction changes for about 15 minutes, and he was awesome! I went to get off and didn't know that my girth loosened quite a bit, the saddle shift spooked him and he jumped forward, and I landed smack on my rear. Nothing that tylenol for a couple of days didn't take care of, and totally my fault!

[esdressage]

I say bring him home, unload him, take him for a hand walk around the property to remind him that he knows the place, then turn him out to play. Depending on when he gets home in the day, if it's early, do some in hand work in the indoor later in the day. Ride the next day, and yes, immediately get him on a schedule and program he can count on.

I think we can count on you not to ride out around trains or without your helmet. What a sad story, and I'm glad the rider's OK now.

So glad he's coming home!!! Have a good time!

[Petstorejunkie]

Even the best trainers have blonde moments. Just go back to the ol pony club days and check all of your tack religiously... and remember your helmet.

the one thing i never forget when riding (even above ye trusty helmet) is a cellphone on your person.

[goeslikestink]

He is a very good baby. I knew that, but I let this guy shake my confidence a little. He is actually doing wonderfully when you look at what all is going on and how the weather was (SO WINDY that day). I am picking him up tomorrow, YAY!!!!!:D He will be so happy to be home and see his buddies. I do turn him out on 8 acres 24/7, except for bad weather. He would not be happy otherwise...he's quite gregarious! I can't wait to give him lots of cookies and brushing :) (trainer has a strict no cookie policy :( ). He LOVES grooming time, it's the only time he really chills and stops acting like Curious George.
What do you all think would be the best plan when I get him home? Should I give him a few days to just relax and decompress? Or start off with a few days of groundwork to re-establish my voice cues and that forward is ok? Or start riding him right away? My dressage instructor won't be available until Saturday a week..so maybe I should do some long-lining and wait till she's back to ride?


work him at the same time so he knows a rountine dont leave leave as this will help to seettle him, in long rien start of with 20mins 10 mins each side and then built it up to an hour,of ridden work dont feed grian yet as hes not doing enough work to warrant it plus it will be a calmer horse just fed on good quality hay as you up the work load and he accepts it and working properly then introduce slowly as in small meal if you need more energy you up it till a happymeduim if to much engery you take some away as hes a forward going horse you shoudnt need much grain at all and if you do it should be of cool mix or calm mix feedstuffs

worm him once home at your convenince and give him 48 hours off work

check your tack and equipment before usage

[hoopoe]

personally if he were my horse I would give him more than a few days off.

I would give at lest a week off from riding, work in hand and gentle lunge is OK. I would have the vet out to double check the mouth and the rest of the body for hot spots, particularly under the saddle , the neck asnd the hocks.

[ASBnTX]

We picked him up on Saturday, but not without more drama :( Fortunately the trainer was giving a lesson when we arrived, so we grabbed my horse and his gear and headed for the trailer. He was pretty nervous, as he has been everytime I've seen him there, but we walked him up to the trailer and he walked right in. Keep in mind I had this horse loading beautifully before we went to this trainer. So he's in the trailer, but looked like he was about to explode at any moment, so I told my friend I wanted to unload him and get him a little more relaxed with some groundwork before the long haul back home. Big mistake. I worked with him doing a few stretching exercises, that I know help him relax. It took a little while for him to remember these, because apparently his new reflex is to dart out to the end of the lead and start these mindless fast trot circles :no: BUT it did come back to him and he looked much better! So I led him back up to the trailer and let him put his nose on the ramp and check it out. We just stood there hanging out for a bit, I just wanted to let him know that it's ok. He started to step up on the ramp when the trainer, who had just finished his lesson, came up behind us with a whip and said, "Are you ready to pull her teeth out yet?" :mad: "My horse is a gelding, and NO, he's just not confident and I'm just trying to reassure him that it's OK." Trainer takes him from me, big mistake #2, and says "Let me try for just a second." He had other clients there who he was just giving a lesson to, so I guess he had to look like the big trainer. I had just spent 10 minutes trying to get my horse to calm down and relax, and this guy starts spinning him around in these super fast tight circles. Smacking his rear with the lead rope if he wasn't yielding and spinning fast enough. My horse starts REARING (hasn't done that since the first week I got him when he was totally unhandled) several times and trying to get away from this idiot. My friend and I both yelled, "That is NOT necessary, we had him loaded, we were just trying to get him calm! Now you're just getting him worked up even more!!" He ignored us. There was no way I could grab my horse because he was working him so frantically, I'd get trampled. I couldn't watch, it made me sick. He even popped him in the face one time because he said he was trying to come over the top of him. I didn't see it, but my friend told me that he did. After my poor baby is dripping wet, he finally starts darting into the trailer in a pure panic..he learned that it was the only safe haven. If he backed out, it started all over again. The second time he jumped in the trailer, I said "Put up the ramp, lets go." Even though he still wasn't "Ok" but I feared he would come out and it would continue. The trainer then proceeds to tell me that with a horse like this, you really need to slow things down, don't put to much pressure on him because you'll fry his brain and not get anything accomplished. He tells me that he really does best if you go slow, and relaxed and let him find his way. I asked him if that's what he thought he just did????? I told him my horse used to load great and that his brain IS fried, and we left.

I am sick. Sick that I put my horse through this, sick wondering what else he had to endure? If he was doing that BS in front of me, what was he doing when I wasn't there??

So here's where I need advice. I haven't ridden him since he's been home, or actually done anything with him but hug him, feed him cookies, brush him, and hose off a giant hematoma on his hip he somehow got while he was there :( He's jumpy, flinchy, and acts like he just can't quite relax when he's with me. I feel fortunate that he's even comes up to me when I go out to his pasture. He now has this habit of turning to face me wherever I am, which makes it hard to get to that hematoma without tying him. His eyes look stressed, and his ears aren't forward and curious like they always used to be. I feel like a years worth of work building this horse's confidence has been totally undone :cry:

So what do I do now? I'm feeling like I should really let him chill out for a week, then reintroduce the groundwork we've done, then go from there with riding. I need to get his confidence and trust in me back. He used to know stretchy circles on the longe, different speeds within gaits, and a few other things, and now he just races out on those fast tight trot circles - robot like. I'm just devastated that I did this to him. I had such good referrals to this guy, and it turned out so so awful. If you've stuck with this long post, thank you, and I would love to know your opinion on what would you do from here?

[Ambrey]

Oh, man. I don't have any advice, but huge hugs!

[esdressage]

I am so sorry you had to go through that when you picked him up.

Now that he's home, the best thing for both of you is to put that completely behind you. Don't let guilty feelings overtake you, don't tell him you're sorry, don't baby him. It's the human response to something like this, but what he needs now is to know that you're somebody who is completely consistent, calm and confident that he can follow.

So, be kind but firm. He needs to stand where you put him and let you treat the hematoma without tying him up. He needs to walk quietly beside you, respecting your space and attentive to your cues. He needs to know that you set the rules, and he's perfectly safe following them with you.

The trainer was a manhandling jerk, but that's in the past. Be confident around your horse, ever consistent, and things will be fine again.

[bort84]

Well, I certainly see nothing wrong with letting him have some time off to decompress. Sounds like he may have gotten a little worked up at the trainer's place.

Also, don't beat yourself up. This kind of thing happens quite often. He wasn't there that long, and he will come around = ) It will be important when you start him back to work that you don't dwell on what you "put him through." He'll be looking to you for new guidance, so just try to start from square one without feeling bad for him.

I think your instincts are correct thus far - start him back with ground work that y'all were comfortable with in the past. Once he starts to settle down and relax, then you can add a little more pressure on the ground. Then you can try a ride.

Don't worry so much. He'll come out of this. After a week in pasture with no pressure on him, he'll probably act like a different boy. Then when you start him back to work, just go slow. Again, really try to forget your emotions so that you aren't too overly cautious and nice when you go back to work. He's still a baby, and he will still need a firm hand at times, it just needs to be an understanding hand = )

Good luck! If it comes down to it, there are probably some other pros in your area that are more dressage oriented that can give you a helping hand.

[bludejavu]

We picked him up on Saturday, but not without more drama :( Fortunately the trainer was giving a lesson when we arrived, so we grabbed my horse and his gear and headed for the trailer. He was pretty nervous, as he has been everytime I've seen him there, but we walked him up to the trailer and he walked right in. Keep in mind I had this horse loading beautifully before we went to this trainer. So he's in the trailer, but looked like he was about to explode at any moment, so I told my friend I wanted to unload him and get him a little more relaxed with some groundwork before the long haul back home. Big mistake. I worked with him doing a few stretching exercises, that I know help him relax. It took a little while for him to remember these, because apparently his new reflex is to dart out to the end of the lead and start these mindless fast trot circles :no: BUT it did come back to him and he looked much better! So I led him back up to the trailer and let him put his nose on the ramp and check it out. We just stood there hanging out for a bit, I just wanted to let him know that it's ok. He started to step up on the ramp when the trainer, who had just finished his lesson, came up behind us with a whip and said, "Are you ready to pull her teeth out yet?" :mad: "My horse is a gelding, and NO, he's just not confident and I'm just trying to reassure him that it's OK." Trainer takes him from me, big mistake #2, and says "Let me try for just a second." He had other clients there who he was just giving a lesson to, so I guess he had to look like the big trainer. I had just spent 10 minutes trying to get my horse to calm down and relax, and this guy starts spinning him around in these super fast tight circles. Smacking his rear with the lead rope if he wasn't yielding and spinning fast enough. My horse starts REARING (hasn't done that since the first week I got him when he was totally unhandled) several times and trying to get away from this idiot. My friend and I both yelled, "That is NOT necessary, we had him loaded, we were just trying to get him calm! Now you're just getting him worked up even more!!" He ignored us. There was no way I could grab my horse because he was working him so frantically, I'd get trampled. I couldn't watch, it made me sick. He even popped him in the face one time because he said he was trying to come over the top of him. I didn't see it, but my friend told me that he did. After my poor baby is dripping wet, he finally starts darting into the trailer in a pure panic..he learned that it was the only safe haven. If he backed out, it started all over again. The second time he jumped in the trailer, I said "Put up the ramp, lets go." Even though he still wasn't "Ok" but I feared he would come out and it would continue. The trainer then proceeds to tell me that with a horse like this, you really need to slow things down, don't put to much pressure on him because you'll fry his brain and not get anything accomplished. He tells me that he really does best if you go slow, and relaxed and let him find his way. I asked him if that's what he thought he just did????? I told him my horse used to load great and that his brain IS fried, and we left.

I am sick. Sick that I put my horse through this, sick wondering what else he had to endure? If he was doing that BS in front of me, what was he doing when I wasn't there??

So here's where I need advice. I haven't ridden him since he's been home, or actually done anything with him but hug him, feed him cookies, brush him, and hose off a giant hematoma on his hip he somehow got while he was there :( He's jumpy, flinchy, and acts like he just can't quite relax when he's with me. I feel fortunate that he's even comes up to me when I go out to his pasture. He now has this habit of turning to face me wherever I am, which makes it hard to get to that hematoma without tying him. His eyes look stressed, and his ears aren't forward and curious like they always used to be. I feel like a years worth of work building this horse's confidence has been totally undone :cry:

So what do I do now? I'm feeling like I should really let him chill out for a week, then reintroduce the groundwork we've done, then go from there with riding. I need to get his confidence and trust in me back. He used to know stretchy circles on the longe, different speeds within gaits, and a few other things, and now he just races out on those fast tight trot circles - robot like. I'm just devastated that I did this to him. I had such good referrals to this guy, and it turned out so so awful. If you've stuck with this long post, thank you, and I would love to know your opinion on what would you do from here?

I've seen this before and that's why I stopped using the NH types. I'm so sorry that this happened to your horse and it's not your fault so don't blame yourself - you were doing the best you could and we all go thru experiences that we look back on and just have to chock it up to a learning experience. Whenever I've gotten horses that have been thru a bad experience, I just let them be a horse for awhile. I put them out with the broodmares or another gelding who will be a pal and not a bully and let the memory fade for them. Just groom him and after a short while, try a few ground exercises and see how he does. A routine is only good if the horse is ready mentally and from your post, it sounds like his mental state is pretty shaky right now.

The loading incident proves to me that your "trainer" was not a real trainer - just a show-off. I reserved my opinion on him before now but that was the clincher for me. No matter what he rides like, good, bad or otherwise, how he handled loading and what he said afterwards was such a gross contradiction that I just had to laugh. It's a shame he doesn't act on his words isn't it!

At any rate, just give your horse a little settle down time and then start back up with your routine. Have a little patience with him, you may have to break thru a few trust issues with him, but I bet he'll come around for you quicker than you think.

[twofatponies]

I am so sorry you had to go through that when you picked him up.

Now that he's home, the best thing for both of you is to put that completely behind you. Don't let guilty feelings overtake you, don't tell him you're sorry, don't baby him. It's the human response to something like this, but what he needs now is to know that you're somebody who is completely consistent, calm and confident that he can follow.

So, be kind but firm. He needs to stand where you put him and let you treat the hematoma without tying him up. He needs to walk quietly beside you, respecting your space and attentive to your cues. He needs to know that you set the rules, and he's perfectly safe following them with you.

The trainer was a manhandling jerk, but that's in the past. Be confident around your horse, ever consistent, and things will be fine again.

Agree! Just be plain, simple and uncomplicated around him, and he will settle right down. Don't let *your* guilty feelings make you act tentative and inconsistent because you feel sorry for him - it will just add to his nervousness. He will be so relieved if you just act very calm, deliberate and matter-of-fact, like nothing ever happened.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

Agree! Just be plain, simple and uncomplicated around him, and he will settle right down. Don't let *your* guilty feelings make you act tentative and inconsistent because you feel sorry for him - it will just add to his nervousness. He will be so relieved if you just act very calm, deliberate and matter-of-fact, like nothing ever happened.

This is really good advice. I also agree with those who said not to give a bunch (days, weeks) of donwtime unless he is in pain or something--(obviously). Just get him in a simple program where he works some each day and you are consistent and confident in your handling. I would get on sooner rather than later though. It will be much less of a big deal for both of you.

It will be ok.

[rabicon]

So sorry. Its not your fault this so called "trainer" is an idiot though. He looks at you when you try to treat his hip because the trainer has drilled in his head that if you look at his hip he should show you his eyes. This is big NH but when its taught correctly he should stand there and only show you his eyes when you change your body and look at the hip not just looking at it. :no: What a dumba$$. Anyways. I'd go back to lunging him the way you use to and let him get comfortable again with this routine. Stay calm and don't feel guilty. You'll be surprised how fast he'll probably come back to you if you just act like you always have and start your ground work. Good luck.

[FatDinah]

Trust yourself. If you think he seems like he needs a hang-out time, do that.
No one posting here can read the horse like you can.
He does need to regain his confidence in people. Don't get on him until he seems like he did last fall. Just spend a lot of time with him, grooming or leading him around, until he figures you are not going to whack on him.

[Alexie]

oh dear i'm so sorry. I have one super sensitive, just like yours, some horses just should not be NH'ed :(

if that had happened to my TB i'd start from scratch with lots of hugs and reassurance. I'd probably start the next day as i feel time off is only a good idea if you have left your horse with good memories to seep through their conscience ( yes i think they have them :o), not bad ones.

i'd let him set the pace.

you've set a foundation with all your previous work, take heart from the fact that it's still there - you just have to brush the dirt off, like an archeologist uncovering a skeleton.

[onelanerode]

What a worthless sack of sh!t that "trainer" is. :mad:

Yes, turn him out for a while and just let him be. If even grooming/being handled is stressful for him right now, just leave him be. Feed him, interact with him only when you have to, and just let him chill out. He will settle down, and then you can start doing more with him.

Meanwhile, take this time and see if you can find a new trainer ... one whose methods match what you're looking for and one who can help you reach the goals you have with your horse. Go watch trainers at shows, call and see if you can observe lessons or clinics, etc. Ask for recommendations and listen.

[SmartAlex]

#1 rule when trailering... if horse gets it, jump in truck and go. :D

That "trainer" guy just keeps proving what an inadequate, egotistical horseman he really is. That being said, there is nothing wrong with theory of teaching a horse that the trailer is the only a safe haven. However, that wasn't actually called for in this case, so I won't defend it.

My advice would be, let your horse mellow out for a few days, and do some basics. I would make sure I worked with him each day at what ever level he needed without dumbing it down too far. And I would want to be on his back within a week or two, even if it is only for 10 minutes at a walk. You will know which day it is. With that in mind, I would tack him up each day during work time even if you are only doing ground work or longing. That way, if you feel you are both ready for a mounted ride, you can just step on. You can ruin the mood if you have to stop and tack up.

Also, when you do get to the point of working him under tack, just the fact that he's wearing a saddle shouldn't obligate you to getting on. He needs to know that work equipment doesn't necessarily mean stress time. If it takes you 10 times of tacking up before you get to the point of mounting that's OK. I've had days when I thought "I should get on him now, he's ready". But, by the time I got tacked up, the horse had mentally gone past the oportune point. Then things can unravel again.

[ASBnTX]

Thanks, a lot of good advice here! I know the damage is not irrepairable, but you only get one first start, and I HATE that this was his experience :( I'll give him a few more days to relax, and then back to old routine, with tack. I'll get on when I see his confidence is looking better. I hope that getting back to what is familiar to him will make the "lightbulb" turn on and he'll just be his old self very soon. I know he needs me to be a firm and fair leader, not bawling and pampering him. If he seems ok, I'd like to start riding next week. We have a clinic scheduled at the end of the month that I think would be great for us. I hope we can still participate.
On the trailer loading, I understand the concept of pressure and release, but with this horse it takes VERY LITTLE pressure for him to understand the question and seek the answer, and he will happily respond if you give him a chance to summon the courage. Just sometimes he needs a little help from his person. That's why what happened was so awful, because I know just how much punishment that really was for him :(

[monstrpony]

I understand the concept of pressure and release, but with this horse it takes VERY LITTLE pressure for him to understand the question and seek the answer

And you will find that if you simply go back to using a reasonable amount of pressure, not the wild stuff that the trainer was doing, that he will very quickly get past the bad experience. Spend some of your groundwork time, once you get back to it regularly, experimenting to see just how little it takes with this horse--make that a game for yourself. He will appreciate it!

and he will happily respond if you give him a chance to summon the courage.

It's not a matter of courage; he would *prefer* you to be the leader, he *wants* to give up having to be a herd of one, but he has to understand and trust that leadership. What he got from the other trainer was unintelligible fireworks, just confusion and upset. He will come around very quickly if you temper the leadership in the right way.

Just sometimes he needs a little help from his person. That's why what happened was so awful, because I know just how much punishment that really was for him :(

Yeah, but it's over now; put it behind the both of you and just go onward in the way that you know is correct. Horses are (very fortunately) remarkably, amazingly forgiving creatures!

YOU HAVE DONE THE RIGHT THING for this horse, you reconized a bad situation and got him out of there. Don't dwell on it, just move forward and put it behind you. Once you get started, you will find it very rewarding and it will be much easier to let it go.

[Petstorejunkie]

If you were a new client for me bringing me a horse that had been thru all that BS this is what i would do.

For the first week i wouldn't even halter him, but go hang with him out in the pasture with horse treats, and brushes, and maybe a book and a snack for myself. I'd spend at least an hour a day observing him without any of my own interaction.
Then we'd slowly move to stuff he knows and is good at with lessons not exceeding 10 minutes each, but maybe 3 or 4 in a day. I would not put him in anything constrictive like side reins or long lining for now just because he's likely to learn even worse habits. I would do round pen work with him, small lessons, little force... probably lesson 1 would be maintain the rail at a walk and who when asked. it sounds like he'll have to relearn how to relax and think like a horse again.
That's month #1 in a nut shell.
Then i'd slowly integrate mounted work again. My favorite thing to do with newbs is 1. do rp body language in a large arena with the green horse loose and me on a made horse 2. pony the greenie. both gets them used to you being above their line of sight so that when you do mount they aren't quite so freaked.

Keep a journal of every day's work. Take pictures regularly as well. 5 years from now you'll cherish it, and when you are having a frustrating day, it's great to review for insight and inspiration.

[sid]

OP - so sorry to hear what you went through when you picked him up.

Try not to beat yourself up about this. If it's any consolation, I had abuses occur with not one but TWO trainers who came highly recommended. The worse part is it happened behind my back here on my own farm. I've never quite forgiven myself, but then some people can be very clever. I don't miss a thing, but these guys were "good" -- sociopathic kind of.

They were wonderful when they first started to work with the youngster, but once they had my confidence I allowed them to work when I was not present the trouble started. I could see it in the horses' behavior. I found one horse with his mouth and gums cut and bloodied. Of course, they were fired. The horse whose mouth I found bloodied took months to return to any sort of trust. I literally did nothing but groom him and reestablish trust.

The other horse was a one-time incident (welted all over his body -- a few opened skin -- from the whip including along his face, cheeks, neck, flank, butt...he was on bute for 5 days). "Willy" didn't take too long to regain trust, but then, he was my orphan baby (who wound up growing to 18.2 hh) whose natural instinct was to trust human. I gave him a week to recover from his body abuse, then started him over myself with ground work so he could regain his confidence. He became a very nice riding horse.

Turns out Willy's trainer had a prior history of being a batterer (about which no one knew). He had sought therapy and thought he had "recovered". Obviously not. He cried about what he'd done. The other guy who bloodied my other horse, turns out was a drunk with a bad temper. He hid it well. Now I know why he wanted to work the horse in the indoor later in the evening after I went to bed.

BUT...what was really sad (but is telling about how most horses recover if you get them out the situation quickly) is that when the abuser went into Willy's stall before he left (I fired him on the spot), Willy came right over an nickered. Now THAT made me cry.

Take heart. Trust your own instincts and most of all "relax". Your horse will pick up on that and come right around.

[asb_own_me]

Longe him, turn him out, and get on him. If you are going to be really nervous and conservative about this, you are going to have problems. Give your horse exercise, plenty of it, and keep him in a daily program.

Don't exhaust him, but get him in a program. A routine he can rely on. Every day. There isn't a single green young horse in the world that does well on an on again - off again program.

I must have the one in the world who does just dandy on it :lol: My youngest ASB should be officially anointed! He's the best. My work schedule (travel) plus yucky and predictably unpredicatable Midwest weather have created the perfect storm of multiple weeks off for my youngster. He gets daily turnout in all but the worst weather, but even as a green green GREEN bean I could hop on and he'd pick up where he left off. He's got a great memory for his "lessons". I want him to be in steadier work, for building muscle, but I do the best I can with what I've got, and he's doing wonderfully. I actually started a thread on Trot.org about his recent first dressage lesson and first fun show...and he's *gasp* been out foxhunting twice, which I posted about in the Hunting forum. Saddlebreds are SO MUCH better than they are usually given credit for - they are sane and smart. I find the biggest problem to be that so many people are actually pretty nervous about a truly forward horse. But trust me, slc2, I know he's an exception to the rule!!!

Anyhoo - to the OP - you'll be fine. Use some common sense, like not riding beside the train tracks, and if you are nervous, go ahead and lunge him a bit first, or turn him out to play more often. Our Saddlebreds are very tuned in to their riders' emotions and we need to stay positive and calm in the saddle.

[slc2]

--Never take a horse out of a trailer once he goes in. Got the t-shirt on that one. Horses generally will relax once you get moving.
--You need to stop being upset about this and calm yourself, or you are going to not help your horse.
-- You haven't done ANYTHING with him? How's that hemotoma going to get absorbed????
-- Dr. Time hasn't had any TIME yet!
--What I would suggest you do is this. Write down everything that is upsetting you. Go in there and sit in his stall and ball your eyes out, and use that paper to read off EVERYTHING you want to say to him - how sorry you are that he was roughly handled, and how sorry you are about how he feels now.
--And then take that paper and rip it up, and be done with it.
--Get a lawn chair and sit in front of his stall and read....I mean in ADDITION to riding and working
--Let him enjoy his friends in the pasture and paddock, too, get him out as MUCH as possible!
--Too, make SURE he has no grain or high energy supplements making him nervous
-- Go and spend time with him. THink of things to do with him - grooming, walking, hand feeding, hand walking, longeing, riding, hacking. If someone can pony him or you can do that too.
--If he gets nervous, don't stop what you're doing and baby him, say, 'hey guy, it's alright, come on we can do this, it's fun'. Have your body language, tone of voice be calm, confident.
--The more you act confident and happy, the more he will forget this episode.
--Of course he comes up to you! You didn't do a thing to him, and he knows this isn't your fault.
--Nothing wrong with tieing him up! What I like to do is tie them up right over a feed dish or hay.
-- His nature will come back, don't worry. But YOU need to be a herd leader, and show him the way!
-- How bout you and him go TOGETHER - to a GOOD trainer? How about riding lessons?
-- How about walks in hand on the trails?
--How about jogging or running and leading your horse?
--How about a Linda-Tellington-Jones Clinic?
--What I would do, is sit on him every single day - for just a brief second! I'd mount, and dismount, and pat him and love him all up. Day one. Get groomed, tack up, get on, super pats, get off, more super pats. For the first week, if you're so dead set on not doing anything more, just do that, though it would be far, far better to start building that new routine right away.
--The second I got off there'd be a treat there, and there'd be some treats when I come over with the saddle and the bridle. And there'd be a treat when i girthed up, etc...etc...etc.
-- YOU DIDN'T DO THIS. SOMEONE ELSE DID, AND HE IS NOW GONE. TIME TO START ANEW! '
-- I would gather up my HAPPY PROGRAM and put it into place, IMMEDIATELY!
-- Keep in mind, just about all horses have had some mistreatment. The fact is they recover.
--TONS of rewards. IGNORE nervousness. Get busy working with him, and riding him, and everything else. For your OWN good just as much as his, the more you wait the more you will build it up in your mind to a huge obstacle, plus, the less work he will have and the more pent up energy.

[sid]

Bingo. What SLC said. Break things down to little, meaningful, educational times.

Actually, this is the BEST time to reestablish everything you had before he left.

Stop feeling guilty. That won't help your buddy at all. Get what you can "in the moment" and the rest will fall back into place.

Since you had such a good relationship with your horse before he went off, it WILL come back to you. But stop looking for the negative and play off the positive (for both of you).

I hate to hear stories like this, but us oldies that have been around the block have faced this too. It happens. It's not good. But...you have to move yourself and your horse beyond it.

Look at it this way...he didn't endure this for 6 mos. or a year! Some horses do and that can be tough. You thought you were doing the right thing, a "trainer" convinced you that you were. It didn't turn out as planned. You've gotten him back relatively quickly...that's the BEST part of your experience. All is not lost. Sounds like you are a good horseman. Just because someone that came recommended turned out not to be...doesn't mean that you are not. Sounds like you did a ton of good work with this horse before you sent him out...you can finish him yourself.

[twofatponies]

--Never take a horse out of a trailer once he goes in. Got the t-shirt on that one. Horses generally will relax once you get moving.

--You need to stop being upset about this and calm yourself, or you are going to not help your horse.

So here's where I need advice. I haven't ridden him.... (quote clipped for space)

That was brilliantly written slc!

[narcisco]

I thought the tape was not too bad, the methods used are NH, the methods used to load are like much NH I've seen, and the turning to face the handler is NH. If a horse tries to go over the top of a person, they're fair game for a pop wherever.

The owner maybe made a mistake taking her dressage horse to an NH trainer, and in unloading her horse. The trainer made a mistake trying to help re-load the horse. Showing off? No one in their right mind ever thinks helping someone load a horse is a way to show off. SLC has a saying, if you see someone having trouble loading a horse, don't walk away, run!

So maybe he was actually trying to help. If I knew someone was posting a video of me training their horse for a bunch of people to bash internationally, I would be helping you load, too. I'd have your bags at the curb.

Where you go from here? Just keep him in training like any normal horse. I don't think he's been abused, and if he was, it's even more important to keep a steady, consistent training schedule and not treat him like a rescue horse. With a tightly wound, intelligent horse like this, you can do untold damage babying him or spoiling him.

[D_BaldStockings]

If you get a chance, this is the Tellington Jones book to get
http://books.google.com/books?id=IJYAAAAACAAJ&dq=inauthor:Linda+inauthor:Tellington+inauthor:Jon es

You have very good advice here and I think your horse will rapidly respond to you again.
Just move on, keeping your lessons short and simple -your poor boy needs some successes.

Ice and exercise, best thing for young bruises -stop the bleeding, help the body bring repair agents to the site.
After a week if there is still a problem switch to heat/cold alternating.

Your horse now again has a wise trainer in you, don't dwell on the past. Horses live in the moment -good thing!

[slc2]

What was 'bad' narcisco, was what wasn't on the tape....

We do have to realize that even the best trainer in the world CHANGES our horses. That's why we send them to a trainer. Because we have a problem, and we need help.

THey may very well be much more wary of being disobedient, they may be VERY hot off the leg aids, and they may react to much, much more subtle cues when we get them back - WE might be the ones frightening them, actually! If the trainer teaches the horse to respond to very subtle, light aids, WE might be the ones that are making the horse 'nervous'. One of my horses was so beautifully trained that he would do things you told him to do that you didn't even know you told him to do! And if you moved or signaled him differently from the trainer...it startled him.

They may feel and act VERY differently to us! And we may not understand it all right away...or have a very positive view of what went on - even when it was a good experience. The more protective of our horses we are, the less experienced we are, the less we've used the services of a trainer...the more the training experience can be threatening.

Because it makes us uncomfortable, because we don't understand or like everything that we see different in our horses, is not always bad. A big part of the learning process with horses is changing how we think about it.

During an illness I sent a horse out for training. He came back feeling like he was hauling on the outside rein like a train, running at top speed, and leaping over a barrel at the canter. He felt so different. I immediately thought I smelled a rat.

I looked at the videos, and was shocked to see that the videos showed a horse that didn't look fast at all. It looked normal. The reason the horse felt 'wrong' to me was not at all because he was 'wrong', but because he was DIFFERENT. And in that case, 'DIFFERENT' was what he needed to be, and how I needed to ride him.

Of course, there are other times I got sick and sent a horse for training, and had it come back suspiciously fat, suspiciously without saddle marks, and suspiciously out of shape...LOL... I realize not all trainers are ethical. Or even, skilled, and I learned that the very, very hard way. Quite a few of them take ridiculous advantage of the 'abesentee owner' or even just the inexperienced owner. If you are not there watching, don't make ANY assumptions about what is going on - or that any training at all is going on.

But not all of them do the customer bad. I've also worked with people who just stopped by to see how a sick horse was...or missed a lesson because a 200 dollar pony at their barn was foundering and everyone else had left the barn, people who showed me a whole new world and showed me I could do things I never imagined I could do.

To some extent, 'they are what they look like'. To an extent, pretty much, you get what you pay for.

Good trainers are not usually cheap (at all), or easily available. They have experience, years of it, and some measuring stick they can be measured by. They have references from people who are established in the business. Other trainers know them and speak highly of them.

They have a full barn, and you wait to get in. The barn looks clean, in great repair, and the riding area is not quite like what you showed us in the video. They aren't always cuddly, but the good ones are ALWAYS knowledgeable, skilled and efficient. They may not cuddle your horse or tell him a bedtime story at bedtime, they may discipline your horse, but they will improve your horse.

The ideal situation, when you have a problem with your horse, when your horse scares you, I will tell you this now and hope you learn and never send your horse away when it's something YOU need to change WITH HIM - the ideal is YOU GO TO TRAINING WITH YOUR HORSE. THe instructor/trainer rides, and right away, you ride, right after her, this is totally hands on, and you are totally involved, every step of the way. You watch what the trainer does, you ask questions, and you GET ON.

What happened to you is what happens to almost everyone...The horse comes back from the trainer and they DO NOT WANT TO GET ON THE HORSE AND RIDE. THis is the big, big, big problem with this. Sending your horse away doesn't change YOU - your habits, way of riding, your routine, your work schedule for the horse, and 99% of the time that is exactly what has to change. The trainer doesn't just train your horse, she teaches YOU how to sit, how to ride, how to set up a reasonable work program for an active, young horse.

The trainer teaches the horse and gets you right up on there and has you do it. You not only build confidence, you start breaking your own bad habits, and building up that 'team' that you and the horse need to be.

The OP feels the situation was bad. I'm taking that right at face value. The loading situation may or may not have been 'bad'. I'm assuming the very emotional, upset version of what happened isn't just a nervous, protective owner.

But I would not assume this is always the case. I've seen enough 'training situations' to be very, very uncomfortably aware that what an owner feels he sees, isn't always what's going on.

[sid]

slc2, with all due respect, I think that you are dumbing down what this OP has reported about her experience with this horse's "training" experience. I don't think that she was putting too much "owner emotion" in it. She seemed to just report the facts (though I'm sure it horrified her). She doesn't seem to be a neophyte at all.

Just becuase she doesn't want to get on right now doesn't mean she's timid or a wimp. IMO, she's being wise to trust her gut about what she has in front of her right now and needs a few days to settle her program with this horse back in after being a bit "cowboyed".

No harm or shame in that.

[Tiffani B]

IMHO, if the horse truly is depressed, withdrawn and mildly wary (from her description, that is what I get) I would give him some time off. He sounds like some of the horses who come down from heavy training programs where they are burnt out on life and just tired of the routine.

If he was mentally "abused", as in confused and frustrated, by this trainer, he needs a mental vacation.

I had initially thought you should start working him immediately but given his mental separation from life right now, I'd wait. Wait until you see the luster back in his eyes, pep in his step, zip in his attitude. Don't fuss over him - be straightforward and matter of fact, make him part of the regular farm routine. If you treat him like he went through hell, he'll continue to act like he's still there.

In the meantime, get yourself to a trainer and take some lessons on some challenging horses. Preferably some youngsters that don't have a lot of saddle time. Safe enough to ride, but not balanced and steady yet. That will help build your confidence and keep you in riding shape.

When you start your boy back to work, I would start off like he just came home fresh and happy - lunge him for a few minutes, and then get on. Don't dilly dally. Make it a short and sweet lesson, mounting and walking off, don't overdo it, but don't skip it, either. Build from there.

You'll have your boy back in no time.

[slc2]

You misinterpret me sid. I am taking at face value what the OP said and taking the same view of it as her. This sounds like a bad situation from the descriptions.

What I am saying is, that in general, protective horse owners with little experience with the problem they need help with, need to get with a good trainer, and stay with a good trainer, and be involved, not just send the horse away, but ride with the trainer, learn right along with their horse. I'm also saying that though I don't care for THIS trainer or what he did, it is not always like this.

[sid]

slc2 - yes, agreed:yes:

[ASBnTX]

I totally understand slc2's point and agree that the very best thing that I could do under normal circumstances, is get on and start riding my horse. Also, if it were only the trailer loading issue, or only the fact that my horse is now more nervous and jumpy that he was before I sent him, or only the trainer's own comments, then I would probably be doing just that. BUT all of the pieces put together lead me to believe that a little down time is what is best for him. I know I will feel more confident getting on him when he is looking more confident, and I think that's the best way to set him/us up for success.
I agree with what Tiffani B said, that he is confused and frustrated and I don't want to throw even more at him right now.
I am emotional about it, mostly because I agonized over the decision as to whether to start him myself or send him off. It just sucks that the results were not at all what I expected or what he needed. I know it's not the end of the world though. He'll be fine.
I am icing the hematoma and turning him out to play with his buddy in the indoor (we've had a ton of rain, and it's WAY too muddy outside now for running around).
My plan is that he'll hopefully be looking ready to go by mid-to-end of next week, and I can get on him then. I am planning on working with a Dressage trainer twice a week, who will get on him, then instruct me on him (I'll ride 4-6x's a week). I've watched a couple of her lessons and she is wonderful.

[Eclectic Horseman]

I admit that I haven't read this entire thread, but I have worked with some young horses that have had very bad starts. I highly recommend using something like On Target Training after a few days when you feel your horse has settled and is ready for more interaction.

http://www.on-target-training.com/

I have found variations on this sort of clicker-type training to be very helpful in teaching a horse how to learn. Some horses just innately do not understand this very well. Others shut down because of a rough start. But if you can teach the horse to focus on his handler, become attentive and respond to cues in order to get positive reinforcement, then something "clicks" in the horse's brain, and he understands what human/horse interaction is about, and what is expected of him. He learns how to learn which is not always automatic for horses in the conscious or intentional sense of the concept.

I have seen dramatic changes in horses' attitudes and behaviors when this sort of approach is used.
Good luck.

[narcisco]

What I am saying is, that in general, protective horse owners with little experience with the problem they need help with, need to get with a good trainer, and stay with a good trainer, and be involved, not just send the horse away, but ride with the trainer, learn right along with their horse. I'm also saying that though I don't care for THIS trainer or what he did, it is not always like this.

Agree completely. The problem sddlbrdgrl (can I buy a vowel?) has now is she is in transition, between trainers. She didn't work with this trainer and the horse, he didn't get to answer her excellent questions, then she left. There wasn't so much mis-communication as lack of communication. This transition period is important that she have some excellent help before she tackles the horse alone, and it sounds like she is arranging just that.

I am totally on board--I don't send our youngsters out to NH people because of all the reasons presented in this scenario. I've seen it before. We prefer to start them ourselves, do all the ground work, and get some spry young things to do the first backing and 12 rides with me on the ground over-seeing.

[ASBnTX]

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t112/jamiecb1127/1241647997527-1.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t112/jamiecb1127/1241647984157.jpg

I just thought I'd share these pictures I took yesterday. He's very much enjoying being turned out after thunderstorms all night. :) The hematoma is shrinking a little bit. He thinks mud treatment is better that cold water and DMSO. I'm just so glad he's home!

[bludejavu]

Yep - he looks like a mud lover to me :D. Most of our pintos seem to think mud baths are the best thing since sliced bread. Just wait til you have to start getting him cleaned up to show him - FUN FUN FUN!!! A small tip - buy some Shapley's white spray on paint which is made for horses. It will save you from having to worry about the little last minute dirt spots that somehow appear no matter how hard you clean them up - those dirt spots are guaranteed to only appear after you are tacked up and dressed up :winkgrin:.

[ASBnTX]

Thanks! I will invest in some Shapley's for sure! Maybe should buy stock in the company ;) I just found the WOW Whitener for mane/tail and love that stuff. White tails are so much fun!