How heritable is hunter movement?

[Crossroads Farm]

What stallions do you feel pass on hunter movement, without sacrificing a great jump?

[showjumpers66]

Honestly? None. Breeding for the flat hunter movement will actually take away the scope.

[fish]

Honestly? None. Breeding for the flat hunter movement will actually take away the scope.

But breeding for floating hunter movement like that of the marvelous Hush doesn't seem to. There are horses (e.g., Hush, As Always (a stallion no less), etc.) who win both on the flat and o/f.

[Signature]

It's definitely hard to have both. But it can happen. And face it, pretty much everyone wants the hack winner (heck, I know I do). It's just plain attractive going around and there is more time between the fences than over them. ;) And very, very few people show in the big divisions where a freaky jump is all that matters. If you're going to show in the HUGE 3' divisions, you better have a good mover too. :yes:

We've found that the movement mechanics are VERY strongly influenced by the mare. Not necessarily elasticity, etc (which seems to have a lot more to do with the rear end), but actually how the foal's legs move - knee action, break at the fetlock, point the toe, etc. We have all very flat kneed, good hunter moving mares and all of our foals are always flat and huntery, regardless of the stallion, except one Holsteiner mare. She breaks a bit at the fetlock and guess what, so do the babies. Watch a mare and foal trot side by side and notice how similar the mechanics are.

To try and produce a fancy mover that also jumps well we start with a fancy moving mare and breed to a great jumping stallion that maybe needs help in the movement dept.
Our best moving mare has the best moving foal each year, and so forth down the hierarchy. I am sure there are stallions that are very prepotent for knee (Sandro Hit, etc) but we wouldn't breed to them for that reason... so I'd say if you have a fancy hunter moving mare you are ahead of the game. I wouldn't expect to produce the hack winner out of a terrible mover. In the end, a good moving foal will definitely sell much better. Obviously you can't jump them when they are so young, so that's all you have to go on, looks and movement, and if they get older and can't jump well plus move bad, it's not a good thing. :) However, it IS definitely possible to have both; Apiro is a lovely mover as well as a very good and scopey jumper.

So, from what we've seen - to get a great mover plus a great jumper, most importantly start with a fancy moving mare (preferably one that jumps well herself) and breed to a stallion with a fabulous jump that may need some help in the movement department. Don't start with a bad moving mare that jumps good unless bred to a stallion that is super prepotent for hunter type movement (such as Donatelli, unfortunately who is gone, and Don Alfredo). After all this my personal answer is "very heritible" but from the mare, not the stallion. JMHO! :)

[grayfox]

Honestly? None. Breeding for the flat hunter movement will actually take away the scope.

I don't think that entirely accurate. I think it's somewhat difficult to get both but there are plenty of horses that have both. It's a smaller percentage, it's a smaller percentage at the top of any sport. Like Fish said Hush, As Always and many others. I have a stallion that has extremely flat pretty hunter movement and he has crazy scope. To say that it's impossible is to ignore the best of our hunters. I also agree with Signature it helps to have a mare that moves great.

[monami]

I obviously agree with Signature but want to add that the Pony people seem to have gotten lots of things right.. good ponies move great, jump great and look the part!!! We need to catch up to them..lol!!

[showjumpers66]

I absolutely agree that the mare seems to have more influence in regards to hunter movement and is why we have choosen a group of mares specifically for producing hunters. And, I do know that there are hunters out there that are the whole package, but they are the minority, for sure.

I have a bit of a different train of thought then some (and to each his own!). It is two-fold -

1) We want to breed athletes first and foremost. If the young horse ends up not being a hunter because it lacks the right jump, way of going, or mind, then it needs to have the ability to compete in show jumping, dressage, or eventing. Low end horses are really tough to sell and we want to avoid producing these.

2) It has been my experience that when a breeder has a really narrow focus, then other important qualities are often lost along the way.

[fish]

I obviously agree with Signature but want to add that the Pony people seem to have gotten lots of things right.. good ponies move great, jump great and look the part!!! We need to catch up to them..lol!!


Ain't that the truth!

E.g. A remark I recently heard about the great hunter Bolero: "He's like a giant pony!" (Of course a lot of this has to do with Bolero being a short-- under 15.2 h-- but fat horse.)

[avadog]

I absolutely agree that the mare seems to have more influence in regards to hunter movement and is why we have choosen a group of mares specifically for producing hunters. And, I do know that there are hunters out there that are the whole package, but they are the minority, for sure.

I have a bit of a different train of thought then some (and to each his own!). It is two-fold -

1) We want to breed athletes first and foremost. If the young horse ends up not being a hunter because it lacks the right jump, way of going, or mind, then it needs to have the ability to compete in show jumping, dressage, or eventing. Low end horses are really tough to sell and we want to avoid producing these.

2) It has been my experience that when a breeder has a really narrow focus, then other important qualities are often lost along the way.

Like you said to each his own. It really drives me crazy when people say their horse is talented enough to be a dressage horse, hunter, jumper, event horse, cutting horse, etc all rolled up in one. This is not a reflection of your breeding program but I would prefer that someone is breeding for something specifically not trying to get an "all around" horse. This to me implies a mediocre horse in many different fields.

[MagicRoseFarm]

When I researched this, I found that an AMAZING number of "whole package" hunters that had German Blood, carried a significant amount of Absatz/Abglanz blood..

some of those I can think of on the spur of the moment

Ruxton, Westporte, As Always, Shine, Diamonette,

I am sure many can pop in with others..

[fish]

Like you said to each his own. It really drives me crazy when people say their horse is talented enough to be a dressage horse, hunter, jumper, event horse, cutting horse, etc all rolled up in one. This is not a reflection of your breeding program but I would prefer that someone is breeding for something specifically not trying to get an "all around" horse. This to me implies a mediocre horse in many different fields.

If you take "cutting horse, etc" off your list, I see no reason why one and the same horse could excel in all the disciplines you mention because they do, in fact, require much the same type of horse and athleticism. While there are horses who excel in one who would not do well in one or more of the others (e.g., I can't imagine Anky's horses doing much in anything but dressage, or Tomboy in anything but jumpers), it seems to me that many of the very best of them could, and sometimes have, easily crossed into the upper levels of one or more of the other disciplines mentioned: e.g. Starman, Bold Minstral, Carlos Boy, Fuerst Gottard, Alden's Image.... the list does go on.

[MsRidiculous]

My Westporte filly is an excellent mover.. much better than her dam. The other Westporte gelding at the barn is also a great mover (out of a TB mare too, but I have no idea how she moved). They both freejump in cute form but at 2 and 3 are too young to really guage for sure.

[Cinnybren]

My AFR gelding is a much better mover than his dam, nice enought to get a piece of the hack in good company. My friends who know my mare and how she moves all scratch their heads and say "D**M, how did that happen?" LOL! I guess in this case, the sire was preponent. I have several people who want me to take Andy to the hunter ring, I bred him to head to the jumpers though. ;)

[Samotis]

My mare I bred has a beautiful hunter movement. She almost doesn't touch the ground at the walk. I bred her to a jumper stallion because I was worried that if I bred to a hunter mover I would not get the elasticity I wanted. (that is her one flaw in movement is that she could follow through a little more)

I also have seen mares that move very flat but have less elasticity that also comes with less scope. Those mares tend to have babies that move the same stiff flat way. (at least the few I have seen)

my colt has his mothers walk with much more elasticity and movement from the stallion. The stallion also had a father that is a Grand Prix dressage stallion.

I think it helps to look at what the stallion produces out of similiar type mares.

If I didn't go to Kentucky and see the stallions offspring in the hunters, I never would have looked at him twice! ( he moves like a jumper, no where near a hunter!)

But, as many people say it is still a crapshoot sometimes. My friend has a gelding by Absolut. He is a freak mover. Almost too flat, like you take a double take because you aren't sure what you just saw. (its very odd to ride him. You can barely post!) He wins almost every hack and has a phenomenal jump. I have never seen a bad picture of him. He could win anywhere with the right ride.

His full sister moves terrible and can't jump at all!!! So, you never know.

I think it is fun to pick stallions to mares and see what you get. But I also think that some of the "hunter" stallions out there may not be the best ones to get that hunter horse out of certain mares!

It shines through with all the imports we see from Europe that are phenomenal hunters. Sometimes it just happens!

I really do love Hush. That face! I want that face!

[okggo]

Probably depends on the cross,
My hunter-type mare crossed with a jumper stallion produced a hunter-type foal. Basically a clone of mom with dads color and head. Long flat flowing stride.

Crossed the same mare to another jumper bred stallion and got an absolute powerhouse. Way too much sproing for the hunter ring.

[Oakstable]

I don't know what "piece of the hack" means.

I would think that with more WB and WB crosses competing in the hunter classes that the "long and low" way of the TB is not the only way of going these days.

There a hunter show down the street in a few weeks. I'll go watch.

[alliekat]

Oakstable I believe it means that it moves nice enough to place in the hack or flat class.
Someone correct me if I am wrong though.

[Edgewood]

Oakstable I believe it means that it moves nice enough to place in the hack or flat class.
Someone correct me if I am wrong though.

Alliekat, you are correct. Oakstable, it is a hunterism for a nice moving horse that can consistently place high in the flat (hack) class.

[Equino]

I don't think that entirely accurate. I think it's somewhat difficult to get both but there are plenty of horses that have both. It's a smaller percentage, it's a smaller percentage at the top of any sport. Like Fish said Hush, As Always and many others. I have a stallion that has extremely flat pretty hunter movement and he has crazy scope. To say that it's impossible is to ignore the best of our hunters. I also agree with Signature it helps to have a mare that moves great.

How is Aloha doing? Has he been showing? I think he is absolutely gorgeous! I love his slow, sweepy strides and in that clip on your website, jumping baby jumps, he looks so impressive, tight with his front end. Looking forward to seeing how he grows up!

[Samotis]

like i said. It probably depends on the jumper stallion. Looking at what they produce with certain types of mares really helps get a better picture of what you can get.

[Signature]

I think the bottom line is that you can't have a great mover without a great hind end. That's where it all begins. It's just like a car with a small engine is not going to be very fast or quick. Underpowered if you will.

That may be why many times people think of hunters with the daisy cutter/rachety movement - which is kind of going out of style due to the warmblood takeover of the hunter ring - as scopeless is probably because many times they were. We have a cute daisy cutter TB, but she is not very athletic, bless her.

I think elasticity and scope go together as the result of a strong motor (hind end), lots of push and therefore suspension and freedom. Our biggest movers have also been the most athletic. If you watch the hacks at the big shows, they all are big, free movers, and kind of "slow legged" to steal the term from the QH industry. Now if you can just add the flat knee to all that power... it is possible to combine the flat mechanics with the good hind end = really great hunter :)

[rcloisonne]

Why is "toe pointing" movement considered a good thing?

[Signature]

Because it's pretty :) (of course this is subjective)

Think of how a model walks down the runway. They point their toes and reach out with long, slow steps. I see this seems to for some reason cross over into our desire for movement for hunters. Watching a model clunk down the runway lifting their knees high and breaking their feet over like they had clown shoes on would just not be attractive :D

[Crossroads Farm]

Flat kneed movement is also desirable because the hunters evolved from the hunt field, where efficiency and smoothness over the ground is important- comfortable for a rider to sit for hours at a time, and energy-saving for the horse!

[grayfox]

How is Aloha doing? Has he been showing? I think he is absolutely gorgeous! I love his slow, sweepy strides and in that clip on your website, jumping baby jumps, he looks so impressive, tight with his front end. Looking forward to seeing how he grows up!

Thanks for the compliment, he's pretty busy in the breeding shed right now but he'll go back to John French in the fall.

I again think Signature was right. I think people that are watching a lot of hunters go in shows recently think of flat kneed like the old TB's or the HUS horses. I think flat kneed with a big stride and a great hindend like Signature said is what is in style and I don't think they lack scope.

[lauriep]

Flat kneed movement is also desirable because the hunters evolved from the hunt field, where efficiency and smoothness over the ground is important- comfortable for a rider to sit for hours at a time, and energy-saving for the horse!

Bingo. And I would hate to see it change. Good hunter movement is very specific to the discipline and is in no way related to dressage movement or jumper movement. And whoever ways that a GOOD hunter mover is limited in scope is just wrong.

[Dinah-do]

Question only - now that the International Hunter Derby is here do you think the empahsis will shift to the jump and not to the trot? I was discussing the future of HB with an old friend ( both of us ex breeders) and we thought ourselves that breeding stock will have to be proven at 4' before their offspring will sell well as babies. The HB as we know it will not be of much importance except to those who like it, Maybe this is nothing new already?

I find myself far more interested in the opening canter circle and the jump than the trot when watching young horse classes.

[fish]

The emphasis has always been on the jump: at least 3x as many classes over fences as on the flat in any division-- with Ch's going to the most point o/f to boot!
If the popularity of the Hunter Derby inspires more people to try themselves and their hunters at 4' (or even 3'6"), not to mention a greater variety of courses, it'll make me happy.

As for HB, it is what it is: a great opportunity to get young horses out where they can see and be seen by their intended venue.

As for breeding stock needing to prove themselves over 4'-- I have noticed that being by proven 4' horses (especially well-conformed ones) does not exactly look unrelated to success at HB: e.g. Popeye K's get seem to be doing pretty well on the line, and I'm pretty happy with my Cunningham babies as HB prospects, too.

[ljshorses]

When I researched this, I found that an AMAZING number of "whole package" hunters that had German Blood, carried a significant amount of Absatz/Abglanz blood..

some of those I can think of on the spur of the moment

Ruxton, Westporte, As Always, Shine, Diamonette,

I am sure many can pop in with others..

That's what I have seen too. I just bred my mare that has Absatz, Pik Bube, Fruling and Romulus blood to Sir Wannabi in hopes for a superb hunter. She has BIG floaty flat kneed movement and lots of scope I think Sir Wannabi will only double up on all that. Another thing people need to keep in mind when breeding for specific talent is that you MUST try very hard to breed like to like as far as conformation goes. Too strong a deviation between sire and dam where the hind end connection and front end connections are can really mess up the desired out come. For example, to make a superb hunter, try not only to breed a great moving dam to a stallion with scope and good movement but make sure their butts and fronts are very similiar as well.

[Tango14]

I think the bottom line is that you can't have a great mover without a great hind end. That's where it all begins. It's just like a car with a small engine is not going to be very fast or quick. Underpowered if you will.

That may be why many times people think of hunters with the daisy cutter/rachety movement - which is kind of going out of style due to the warmblood takeover of the hunter ring - as scopeless is probably because many times they were. We have a cute daisy cutter TB, but she is not very athletic, bless her.

I think elasticity and scope go together as the result of a strong motor (hind end), lots of push and therefore suspension and freedom. Our biggest movers have also been the most athletic. If you watch the hacks at the big shows, they all are big, free movers, and kind of "slow legged" to steal the term from the QH industry. Now if you can just add the flat knee to all that power... it is possible to combine the flat mechanics with the good hind end = really great hunter :)

I am learning a lot from this thread. Can you, or anyone else, please explain to me:
- By 'great hind end', what exactly do you mean conformationally? A rounded QH-type hindquarter?
- what is 'daisy cutter' type movement exactly?
-'flat knee movement' - please explain exactly what this is and why it is so important. What's the alternative?
- What exactly is hunter movement and how does it differ from dressage movement.

I've just Googled hunter vs dressage and found a reference to this book:
''Selecting the Dressage Horse: Conformation, Movement, Temperament
By Dirk Willem Rosie
Notes and comments by Anky van Grunsven'''

''Part I: Conformation
The Goal of Dressage; Jumpers vs Dressage Horses; The "Uphill" Horse; The importance of long front legs; The Neck: An excellent instrument; A strong and supple topline; A croup to "sit" on; Hind legs built to carry; Built like an archer's bow and string''

My last question is: What is meant by 'a croup to ''sit'' on'?

Thanks, look forward to the replies:yes:

[showjumpers66]

Ask three people and you will probably get three different opinions. :lol:

There are some fancy QH hunters out there, but typically they are strongly influenced by TB. You don't want a stock QH rear end. The muscling and shape of the hindquarters actually restricts the horse's ability in regards to the sporthorse discplines as it was bred to be a stock horse to stop and turn quickly.

A daisy cutter is a horse that moves with a sweeping, low stride (i.e. low enough to cut daisies). The flat kneed gait was desirable in the working field hunters as it was more economical for covering ground than say a horse that did double duty as the carriage horse and had a lot of action. Many of the dressage breds actually have very good gaits for the hunters. Their overall appearance can be changed based on how they are ridden.

For example -

Apiro in Germany (that is a 5'6" oxer BTW) - http://www.silvercreeksporthorses.com/Video/ApiroShow.wmv

Apiro in the hunter ring - http://www.silvercreeksporthorses.com/Video/ApiroHack.wmv

Hope that helps!

[Tango14]

Well what can I say... your stallions are something else.. OMG, I love Apiro. WHAT a superstar. Not that they all aren't, I would also give my eye teeth to own Vallado. <wiping drool off chin;)>

Thank you for the explanations. So, a flat kneed gait is different to 'flat knees'. Right:)

Does hunter movement preclude a horse from high dressage movement? could you use a hunter to produce a dressage horse if it was your best option in every [other] way??

[showjumpers66]

Sure, a hunter may be able to produce a dressage horse, if the horse has three really good, uphill gaits, impulsion, elasticity, and power.

[Signature]

I'm with SJ, you'll probably get a million different opinions - but there are hunter type mover who can do fantastic in the dressage areana. Donatelli is our favorite example (RIP :( ). Super dainty toe pointer but extremely succesful Grand Prix dressage horse... yet he's produced our best hunter foals. He seems to always pass a very strong hind end but also that flat knee, so the foals are athletic, balanced and elastic, but have the flatter kneed trot for the hunters.

Here is a video of him as a hunter (in steel): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HCNI5xKF8k

And as a GP dressage horse: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dD0kBtYrNU

And yes, flat knee does not mean flat gait (lack of suspension).

When I get some time I'll try to dig out examples of what I personally feel are good hunter movers. :) We have a mare at home getting ready to foal so I'm rushing at work to get some things done so I can get back to her. :)

[ljshorses]

Another stallion that comes to mind that has wonderful dressage movement with flat knee and has a phenominal jump is Pablo. I believe he's also produced some wonderful hunters.

[imapepper]

And a couple of other good hunter stallions....Chaleon and Cunningham. Chaleon is one my particular favorites to watch.