Rio fought the tie and survived

[Shadow14]

I often head out about an hour before sundown just for a relaxing ride in the evening, a beautiful way to end a day.

[Auventera Two]

Wow, you must have an old truck. No way in h3ll would I ever tie a horse to my $50,000 truck! :eek: I don't even want them walking near it.

[Mrs. Cowboy]

I never understood the need for a 50,000 truck. My 15, 000 truck is for hauling and it does that nicely. I sure wouldn't own something that expensive to have around horses and trailers and tractors.

Good for Rio, it sounds like he's learned some wonderful life lessons. I wish everyone was dedicated to teaching their horses the basics.

[Shadow14]

Wow, you must have an old truck. No way in h3ll would I ever tie a horse to my $50,000 truck! :eek: I don't even want them walking near it.

A2 my truck is older. A 97 dodge ram.

[Shadow14]

I

Good for Rio, it sounds like he's learned some wonderful life lessons. I wish everyone was dedicated to teaching their horses the basics.

I am totally dedicated to his training.

[kookicat]

Shadow, your posts bother me for some reason I can't put my finger on. I think it's because the main themes are 'Look how wonderful I am' and 'see how I dominated my horse!'

Or maybe I'm just cranky.

[Hoofprince in Mud]

It takes me about 1 1/2 years of dedicated effort to create a trained horse but at the end of this time he is made for life.



After the description of your training methods, no he isn't a made horse. He's brain dead. A zombie.

[Shadow14]

Shadow, your posts bother me for some reason I can't put my finger on. I think it's because the main themes are 'Look how wonderful I am' and 'see how I dominated my horse!'

Or maybe I'm just cranky.

Is this forum not about sharing information??

[Shadow14]

After the description of your training methods, no he isn't a made horse. He's brain dead. A zombie.



I am proud of the horses I create.

[Shadow14]

Guys it is just not worth the hassels of posting. I would do better to not try and help and just keep to myself.

[GilbertsCreeksideAcres]

This edited thread is quite the tease.

[Sithly]

Cliff Notes version:

Shadow14 set up a little test/trap for his horse. He tied it to his truck and walked away. The horse pulled back a couple times, then stood there, having "learned to obey."

When some others took issue with Shadow's tone and his methods, he had a small hissy fit about how he's trained horses for 50 years and has learned a few things, then he deleted everything (read: took his toys and went home).

[GilbertsCreeksideAcres]

Got it. Thanks.

[prudence]

I always enjoy S14's posts, cried when his horse Shadow died, and enjoy hearing about Rio's training. I don't think he is bragging but works hard and is proud of the results. This particular thread was more about tying with an unbreakable tie and the pluses in doing that. People are certainly free to disagree! I hope he continues to share; I would miss his posts.

[katarine]

People are certainly free to disagree!

Are you sure about that?

Free implies the OP will listen respectfully and respond respectfully.

[Auventera Two]

I never understood the need for a 50,000 truck. My 15, 000 truck is for hauling and it does that nicely. I sure wouldn't own something that expensive to have around horses and trailers and tractors.

Well I agree with you that there is probably no "need" for a nice truck but this is America and I can buy what I want! :lol: :cool:

I'm happy that my horses don't pull back. It's supremely annoying to own a horse that is constantly testing the rope. Rio tried it once and he might not ever try it again. Good thing he was tied hard and couldn't get away with anything!

[Shadow14]

I'm happy that my horses don't pull back. It's supremely annoying to own a horse that is constantly testing the rope. Rio tried it once and he might not ever try it again. Good thing he was tied hard and couldn't get away with anything!




A2 Rio is tied daily and never tries pulling but his time he didn't know he was tied. The rope lay on the ground and with me present he normally just stands there but with me leaving he decided he could too and I gave him enough rope so he could hang himself so to speak. Off he walking , around the corner of the truck and heading for the barn when he was brought up short. It suprised him to find he was tied and he hit it hard.
But he did return around the truck on his own and stood once again behind the tail gate. I feel he learned things aren't always as they seem so I better just stay put.

As for the truck some people have gorgous rigs, trailers worth more then my truck for sure but to me it just isn't important. My trailer is light weight aluminum , with soft springs and well maintained and my truck is also well maintained and does the job. I know you have a beautiful setup and like you said. This is America where you can have whatever your heart desires.:lol:

I could post a picture of the truck but I am sure you ladies wouldn't like it.

[CatOnLap]

Did somebody drop this?

I often head out about an hour before sundown just for a relaxing ride in the evening, a beautiful way to end a day. When I return home I get off a little distance from home, loosen the saddle a lead Rio to the back of the truck where I keep my saddle. He ground ties so I unsaddle. I have a neck rope in the back of the truck, a very long one that I use for hand grazing. I clip it around his neck and slip the bridle.
In the back of the truck, high on the back right corner I have a special tie ring, attached securely to the frame that no horse can pull out. I decided to tie Rio to this ring, giving him about 5 or 6 feet of slack, a bad idea most of the time but I wanted to give him enough rope that if he behaved he would not know that he was tied and walked away. Rio decided to leave when I left and walked around the truck heading for the barn. He was brought up short at the side of the truck and then went straight up and hit the rope hard. I could have interferred but I let him work it out and after 2 hard hits he walked back to the place I had left him and just stood.
I pretended nothing had happen, returned to him, untied him and took him for grazing.
What does this teach?? It teaches him to obey. He tried, knows he can't break loose and knows that standing still is the only option.
I then take that same rope and put it around his left hind leg and hold it while he grazes. I have been dragged about 100 feet maximum by other horses but not Rio. He has learned quickly that the minute the leg goes tight to take a step backwards and pivot to his left and continue grazing.
I watched him last night stretch is neck forward for a choice bite of grass and when that was not enough stretch is teethered leg back but not pull to reach the choice morsal but he never pulled and he would then step back and rotate to his left.
He picked this up in a few days and it really makes hand grazing a horse easier then a rope snapped to the halter. No chance of stepping on it, no chance or wrapping a leg. I use a lawn chair, get a good book and just set the chair on the line and let him graze.
He is learning to accept anything done to him.
I often set him up , as a trail, almost daily to further his training. We have a round pen that is not used and I set obsticles in it to test and teach.
Of coarse he must do the gate coming and going.

[Shadow14]

Did somebody drop this?

And why would anyone save a copy of my post????:eek::eek:
I only create "brain dead horse":eek: so you wouldn't want to follow anything I said

[Sithly]

And why would anyone save a copy of my post????:eek::eek:
I only create "brain dead horse":eek: so you wouldn't want to follow anything I said

Oh, fer Chrissakes. :rolleyes: I almost did the same thing. I happened to have the same page open in another window.

It's safe to assume that nothing you post on the Internet ever truly disappears.

[CatOnLap]

a little advice from an old lady ...

think twice, post once.
I did not save it.
I just found it on the floor some where.
Slithly is quite right.

[twofatponies]

Too funny.

I actually enjoy the diversity of experience, method and opinion on COTH. Keeps things interesting.

[Shadow14]

I think it's because the main themes are 'Look how wonderful I am' and 'see how I dominated my horse!'

.

kookicat I try and give my approach to training horses. I try to share my experience, to give others ideas on maybe something they could try. If we just sit back and wait for someone to ask a question then the question might never get asked. I have a method that turns out great horses, and I do it in about 1 1/2 years. Not 10-20 or 30 years but 1 1/2 years.
I have hung around boarding barns and see older horses, horses even in their 30 that have no where near the training my guy has after 2 months, certainly not after I have 4 or 5 months with a young guy.
I would love others to post on topics, some way to doing things. I would love to teach my horse to lay down on command?? I don't have a clue how to teach it. If someone ran a post on this I would read it with interest and try it.
What is wrong with running posts on how to do things?? Or at least how I teach things.
For a living I teach at a large university, have been for 40 years. I am use to teaching others how to do things and why not teach horse training techiniques that work for me.
I can't think of one thing you ever said that helped me, I don't know you and yet you have over 4000 post?? What advice are you giving? Are you sharing experience of just criiticizing others and their methods??
I have been in the ring over 50 times with almost that many wins for my training, I am not young , I do make exceptional horses.
To me training is not killing the brain or making a horse " brain dead"" It is teaching him to respond in a certian way with the minumum of contact. I teach him what I want for a response and then I put alot of faith in him to respond in a certain way. I risk my life, and his life sometimes, but I trust and they don't let me down. I believe in the 10 commandments of a horse and follow them, You probably don't even know them??
So instead of just criticizing add information, add training techiniques, Tell us of experiences and how it worked.Add to our education.
I am also flatter that someone who sits back and posts .15 times a day comes out of the woodwork and criticizes me. I must be important???
Katarina loves to jump all over me, any chance she gets but I see she posted on her recent experince. This is good, it shares experience.
Waiting for a problem to crop up is boring and this forum really is dead alot of the time.
People speak up about your experiences, share, educate, we will all benefit from it

[kookicat]

Ah, I see you cropped my post so the last line is missing. ;)

I don't usually post in this forum at all- distance riding isn't something I know a great deal about, hence I usually lurk and learn.

I'm not sure I agree with your way of doing things. My horses tie very well, they are safe to hack out, but they are able to think for themselves. I need that for the sport that I do, ya know?

And nope, I don't give advice. I just bitch at people all day. :winkgrin:

[prudence]

"I just bitch at people all day."

:lol::lol::lol:

[katarine]

kookicat I try and give my approach to training horses. I try to share my experience, to give others ideas on maybe something they could try.

Try what? Hard-tie my good horse to a truck, walk off, and surprise him?

I have a method that turns out great horses, and I do it in about 1 1/2 years. Not 10-20 or 30 years but 1 1/2 years.
I have hung around boarding barns and see older horses, horses even in their 30 that have no where near the training my guy has after 2 months, certainly not after I have 4 or 5 months with a young guy....
For a living I teach at a large university, have been for 40 years. I am use to teaching others how to do things and why not teach horse training techiniques that work for me.



This is not teaching, Shadow. It's lecture. There is a huge difference. Do you pack up your lecture and leave the classroom when pressed with hard questions or opposition there, too.


I can't think of one thing you ever said that helped me, I don't know you and yet you have over 4000 post?? What advice are you giving? Are you sharing experience of just criiticizing others and their methods??

See above about mocking your 'students'

I have been in the ring over 50 times with almost that many wins for my training, I am not young , I do make exceptional horses.

I believe you make good horses. I believe I do, too.

To me training is not killing the brain or making a horse " brain dead"" It is teaching him to respond in a certian way with the minumum of contact. I teach him what I want for a response and then I put alot of faith in him to respond in a certain way. I risk my life, and his life sometimes, but I trust and they don't let me down. I believe in the 10 commandments of a horse and follow them, You probably don't even know them??

More mocking, even questioning a poster's knowledge of some made up ten commandments??? Now you have me with the ???? that isn't a ????

I will not risk my horse's life for my ego. Ever.

So instead of just criticizing add information, add training techiniques, Tell us of experiences and how it worked.Add to our education.

How does one add to the discussion re: tying a horse to a truck, walking off and surprising him...if one doesn't agree that's a good idea in the first place? The only thing to reply with is along the lines of, Um, not something I would do.

I am also flatter that someone who sits back and posts .15 times a day comes out of the woodwork and criticizes me. I must be important???

You confuse important with consistently passive-aggressive.

Katarina loves to jump all over me, any chance she gets but I see she posted on her recent experince. This is good, it shares experience.

Nah, just easily amused by your predictability. I set the ultimate foot wrong with you when you TOLD me you'd be your mentor if I boarded in the same barn with me. I told you that unless I ASKED you, it wasn't welcome, period. I, like some others here, don't want or need your brand of help. That bothers you to no end, not about me in particular of course, but this board- where you post, you get questioned, you get irritated, you delete, you withdraw...as predictable as rain on fresh cut hay ;) And it's Katarine, not Katarina. And my experience didn't surprise or upset or create a fight in my good horse. Boredom, yes. Fight, no. He still gets to think for himself.

Waiting for a problem to crop up is boring and this forum really is dead alot of the time.
No one made you delete your post. You chose that. How can it be discussed if you get in a twist and pull it off...unless that's your intention from the start? Inflame, run, insult?

People speak up about your experiences, share, educate, we will all benefit from it

I will not tie my horse to my truck.

[Shadow14]

I feel that ground tying is an important thing to teach a horse. I often leave my horse ground tied while clearing trail, while visiting a local, when I forget something in the barn and have to go after it, if my horse craps on the driveway before leaving the barn I will ground tie and go clean it up.
I have ground tied for 1 1/4 hours or so and he was still standing there, waiting.
Rio ground ties every time we go out but I am always, always within a arms length or so.
Not this time. I ground tied but the rope being long enough I tied the other end to the truck. If he had remained ground tied he would never have found out he was tied. Wouldn't it be nice if you could just drop the reins and secretely have them glued to the ground and then when the horse walked off he would find himself actually tied?? Well I wanted Rio to learn that things are not as they appear and when he walked off thinking he was free he ran into the tie.
He did return to the back of the truck on his own and just stood. Did he not learn something????
As for tying to a truck?? You tie to a trailer, why not a truck. What if you didn't care about the truck and had a ring on the side to tie to?? What is different about that then a horse trailer.
I care about my truck and have a very neat, strong ring inside the box right inside the tail gate and I can just ie to this if I choose and groom and saddle from the back of the truck?? AGain what is wrong with this??

[twofatponies]

I feel that ground tying is an important thing to teach a horse. I often leave my horse ground tied while clearing trail, while visiting a local, when I forget something in the barn and have to go after it, if my horse craps on the driveway before leaving the barn I will ground tie and go clean it up.
I have ground tied for 1 1/4 hours or so and he was still standing there, waiting....

When I was riding in Brazil I had a chuckle - the neighbor of a friend who took us out on his horses wanted to show us a neat waterfall and old mill. We dismounted, he took off the horse's bridles, and he led them off the road into a big patch of tall grass. Then we hiked around for 40 minutes to see the waterfall and so on. When we came back, there were the three horses, standing in the grass, munching away.

A sort of kind of ground tying! :D

[kookicat]

Strangely enough, yep, I can drop my reins and leave my horses to stand while I do something. They learned it when I was setting ground poles by myself- they usually choose to nap. ;)

I don't need to tie them to my truck to get them to stand. I taught them it the same way I taught my dogs to stay, calm, persistant training.

[Shadow14]

Strangely enough, yep, I can drop my reins and leave my horses to stand while I do something. They learned it when I was setting ground poles by myself- they usually choose to nap. ;)

I don't need to tie them to my truck to get them to stand. I taught them it the same way I taught my dogs to stay, calm, persistant training.

You are in a confined area. The horse is safe even if it runs off. Try that beside a busy highway in a completely strange place. Ground tie the horse and then crawl in the back of the truck to get something you forgot. Remember a strange place beside a busy highway. To run is also a good chance to die. Would you tie or leave him loose under these conditions??
I too ground tie every time I unsaddle and he is in the open beside a highway but I am within arms length.
How about ground tying in a persons driveway, agian in a strange place, beside a busy highway and go in the house for a quick chat?? Would you trust your horse under this situation.
Or riding through a farms yard and the horse craps on his paved yard. I ground tie, go get a broom and shovel and clean up the mess. Would you expect your horse to stand patiently and be there when you return?
There are times to tie and times you can just ground tie.

[Guilherme]

There's an old proverb: Trust in Allah but tie your camel. :)

We teach our horses to ground tie. It's a useful skill and helps deal with a tendency to "move away" as soon as they feel weight in a stirrup. But we don't exepect "ground tie" to substitute for "broke to tie."

Well trained horses behave IAW their training until something comes along that breaks that training. A horse tied "eye high, arms length, with and to something that won't break" means you'll not have a long walk home or a loose horse working mischief (or mayhem).

G.

[rainechyldes]

'I read Shadow's post. before he deleted it.
"tone" aside. all he bloody well said was he tied his damn horse to his truck and his horse didn't realize he was tied. tried to follow Shadow, realized he was tied. walked back to his orginal spot and stood still.

Seriously children.. and I use this term lightly. Then the meow meow gang felt the need to hop on the f***ing idiot wagon and get bent. about.. nothing!!!
Are you all this gd braindead on a regular basis ,. or are we timewarped back into kindergarten?

I don't always agree with Shadow, but jesus murphy on a crutch. You all realize you are being little wingdings about the fact a guy tied his horse to a truck.. and nothing else?

Seriously... something better to do maybe?

I've tied my horses to trailers, trucks, trees, fences.. and probably at some point in my life a freaking clothesline and a telephone booth (yes) the point is - they are taught to tie.

[twofatponies]

'I read Shadow's post. before he deleted it.
"tone" aside. all he bloody well said was he tied his damn horse to his truck and his horse didn't realize he was tied. tried to follow Shadow, realized he was tied. walked back to his orginal spot and stood still.

Seriously children.. and I use this term lightly. Then the meow meow gang felt the need to hop on the f***ing idiot wagon and get bent. about.. nothing!!!
Are you all this gd braindead on a regular basis ,. or are we timewarped back into kindergarten?

I don't always agree with Shadow, but jesus murphy on a crutch. You all realize you are being little wingdings about the fact a guy tied his horse to a truck.. and nothing else?

Seriously... something better to do maybe?

I've tied my horses to trailers, trucks, trees, fences.. and probably at some point in my life a freaking clothesline and a telephone booth (yes) the point is - they are taught to tie.

I figure half this thread involves an old intepersonal spat I know nothing about (and don't care about). The other half of the discussion is interesting. :D

I'd LOVE to hear about the phone booth!

[katarine]

um- the OP deleted the post over just about nothing. the slightest hint of concern. If there's a mountain out of a molehill here, there's old fart up north toting a shovel.

[Beverley]

1)I have a method that turns out great horses, and I do it in about 1 1/2 years. Not 10-20 or 30 years but 1 1/2 years.

2) What is wrong with running posts on how to do things?? Or at least how I teach things.


3)I can't think of one thing you ever said that helped me, I don't know you and yet you have over 4000 post?? What advice are you giving? Are you sharing experience of just criiticizing others and their methods??

4) I have been in the ring over 50 times with almost that many wins for my training, I am not young , I do make exceptional horses.

1. Personally, I don't put a timetable on making a horse, I let the horse progress at its own rate. I have a method that turns out great horses, when they are ready for it. The result is mentally and physically sound animals that typically go well and hard, well into their 20s. But I don't feel any particular need to brag about it, just an amateur who trains mostly for myself, occasionally for friends.:)

2. Nothing wrong with it at all. But, Shadow, as has been noted, they do tend to come across as "I'm great, and you're not." And, for all your wailing about being criticized, you do always get your dander up when someone dares to disagree with your methods. Certainly NOT conducive to educational discussions that you claim you'd like to see.

3. See #2- classic illustration of your slamming someone who disagreed with you.

4. Just plain bragging. Now, as Dizzy Dean said, it ain't bragging if you really can do it, but geez, claiming expertise on the basis of 50 trips into a show arena is pretty lame, in my opinion. I've been in the arena and won trophies and ribbons many times that, doesn't make me better than anyone else.

[rainechyldes]

Used to tie my QH mare by the reins (yes- I can hear the squealing now- quick, get your flamethrowers:) ) to a telephone booth. The telephone booth was the only place outside the general store to tie, when I went into to buy a pop after riding for a few hours.

Of course then we used to proceed to guzzle said pop, climb back on and having burping trotting contests all the way home. (whole nother story) My mare got her own pop too, she liked rootbeer

and to Katarine, - I'm pretty sure Shadow deleted his original post because of the biotchfest of nasty attack to ensued. Maybe you should go back and check out kook's post on page 1? :)

My point was - a certain precentage of you are making an issue out of a non issue.

The orginal post was a non event for crying out loud. I'm sure none of you have EVER... (rolly eyes) had a horse attempt to walk away from a place they were tied, took 3 steps, said uhoh, as they felt the end of the rope and went back and stood where they were in the first place?

Mmm maybe not. Sometimes COTH suffers from a whole lotta perfect.
Which frankly, I'll agree with Shadow, makes this place darn dull at times.

[katarine]

and to Katarine, - I'm pretty sure Shadow deleted his original post because of the biotchfest of nasty attack to ensued. Maybe you should go back and check out kook's post on page 1? :)

My point was - a certain precentage of you are making an issue out of a non issue.

Mmm maybe not. Sometimes COTH suffers from a whole lotta perfect.
Which frankly, I'll agree with Shadow, makes this place darn dull at times.

When you find it too much trouble to defend your ways, but choose to delete and whine, mock others who dare question you, then post some more, then whine some more- well, enlightening, exciting, interesting, nah, that isn't the word that comes to mind. More like sand in your shorts. Gum on your shoe. a bug in your ear. Annoying as all get out.

I'm out.

I'm not perfect, but I'm not going to tie my horse to my truck, either. :cool:

[twofatponies]

Used to tie my QH mare by the reins (yes- I can hear the squealing now- quick, get your flamethrowers:) ) to a telephone booth. The telephone booth was the only place outside the general store to tie, when I went into to buy a pop after riding for a few hours.

Of course then we used to proceed to guzzle said pop, climb back on and having burping trotting contests all the way home. (whole nother story) My mare got her own pop too, she liked rootbeer

Brilliant!

A friend told me when she was a kid she tied her pony to the support post of the front porch while she ran inside to get a drink.

That didn't turn out so well for the porch when the pony decided to pull free and go graze. :D

[rainechyldes]

ah but.. other posters mock and deride his posts because they don't agree. And if he or any other poster defends their actions, they get mocked more, if they say 'screw you' they still get mocked.

Gotya.


rule to self - only the spheshul posters are permitted to mock. Someone please make me a list, so I know who's who then. :)


Yeah, my QH was the only one I did that with. Then I got a hot crazy little Arab. tying her to well. uhm anything.. was a no go.

[katarine]

ah but.. other posters mock Shadow.. and thats ok then? Gotchya.


Yeah, my QH was the only one I did that with. Then I got a hot crazy little Arab. tying her to well. uhm anything.. was a no go.
Stick around rain, question anything he says. it will not matter how kind, how coarse, how reasonable, or irrational. All are equally unwelcome. Try it and you'll see.

Or, search this forum. Respondants come and go. The OP remains the same ;)

[rainechyldes]

Stick around rain, question anything he says. it will not matter how kind, how coarse, how reasonable, or irrational. All are equally unwelcome. Try it and you'll see.

Or, search this forum. Respondants come and go. The OP remains the same ;)

Do a search on me Kat. Shadow and I have had our go rounds more then once.
I know exactly who he is, and how he posts.

My point was - say the forum suddenly decides they dont like how 'you' post. Will you still be happy about the bandwagon hopping? :)

[katarine]

I'm fine with debate.

I'm fine with my style being questioned.

I'm fine with being questioned in general.

who is 'the forum' and do they like carrot cake? Perhaps I can bribe them.

This isn't Survivor, I'm not worried about alliances ;)


Any more questions :)

[rainechyldes]

I like debate, and I'll eat carrot cake any day of the week:) Long as I dont hafta bake it!

There was no great debate. there was Shadow telling his story and a snide reply by Kooki that had no bearing on the actual post, Just meh. Me, I might not have deleted my OP, but I might have bitched back , shadow took the higher road at the point, til his was pushed.

And damn straight it kills me to be defending him. lol:) But I hate 'rude' for the sake of rude. And he isn't the only guilty one, is all I'm saying:)
Anyhow, I'm off to geekdom and play Halo for the simple excuse it gives me a chance to shoot my son in pixel land:)

[Sithly]

I have nothing against Shadow14, believe it or not. And I have actually defended him in the past, believe it or not. He just doesn't deserve defending in this case, IMO. Not for the tying thing (who cares?), but for his general behavior.

Coth is not really the place for ego-stroking and hugs. If you post something stupid, you will get called on it. *shrug* I don't see that as a bad thing. I've posted stupid things and been called on them, too. It's not necessarily personal.

[Shadow14]

. If you post something stupid, you will get called on it. *shrug* I don't see that as a bad thing. I've posted stupid things and been called on them, too. It's not necessarily personal.

Posting stupid things?? Will you or anyone else tell me what is stupid about welding a very secure tie ring to the back of my pickup truck, it is even painted bright orange to stand out, it is securely welded to the structure of the back corner. It is designed to hold the pull of any horse. So again what is stupid about tying to a truck. It outweighs most trailers, is very secure standing on 4 large tires.
Please explain to me how it is a stupid place to tie?????
Katarina you seem to really take exception to tying to a truck?? Please explain?? Set me straight as to why it is wrong??
Are any of you engineers?? Do you even know what the structure in the back corner of a truck looks like?
I know I am just raving but the stupidity of some here really gets to me.

[Shadow14]

. I've been in the arena and won trophies and ribbons many times that, doesn't make me better than anyone else.

On that day, in that ring with those people it does. It means in the judges opinion you had the best animal there doing that exercise. Do it enough, win year after year and eventually the best rises to the top.
What good is showing and winning if you can't take pride in the fact that you beat everyone else in that ring? Why bother showing then???

[Shadow14]

Stick around rain, question anything he says. it will not matter how kind, how coarse, how reasonable, or irrational. All are equally unwelcome. Try it and you'll see.

Or, search this forum. Respondants come and go. The OP remains the same ;)

No katrina. I just hate the vicious attacks. I don't have a problem with the way I do things because it gets results. I hate the blind stupid attacks by people like you.
Ask a question and I will defend the way I do things and the results I get.
You ask me to respect people and yet your method of constantly attacking everything gets a little sickening.
I will offer suggestions to people with problems, I am not afraid to speak my mind but talking to some people is just not worth the effort. As is bothering with you.

[katarine]

:sleepy::sleepy::sleepy:

[Beverley]

On that day, in that ring with those people it does. It means in the judges opinion you had the best animal there doing that exercise. Do it enough, win year after year and eventually the best rises to the top.
What good is showing and winning if you can't take pride in the fact that you beat everyone else in that ring? Why bother showing then???

I'm afraid you missed my point. My point is that you communicated, whether you intended to or not, that because you went in the ring and won something 50 times, you're an expert. 50 awards is not, in my opinion, proof of expertise. Nor is it 'year after year' which you are now characterizing in the above quote- unless it's once a year for 50 years!And again, you are coming across as bragging, see points in previous post to which you did not respond.

Now, if you insist on some perspective on show records- as I previously indicated I've won my fair share dating back to 1962, and sure, I'm proud of it, but I am not going to allege that it makes me any more knowledgeable than you, or anybody else. But tell ya what, if you want to compare, I've won and/or placed at jumpers (up to 5 feet or so), hunters (up to 3 foot 6, o/f and u/s, and hunt teams at 3 foot to 3 foot 6), eventing (not above training level), hunter paces/pair races, equitation (English and western and bareback), dressage (lower levels), pleasure (English and western), reining, western riding, trail (arena), competitive trail rides/ judged pleasure rides, team penning, and timed events including barrels, poles, keyhole, flag race, rescue race and all sorts of other fun stuff. There may be more, that's what I can recall off the top of my head. And of course the noncompetitive stuff, principally including foxhunting since 1971. And you?

Back to your original deleted-then-restored post, count me among those who doesn't tie to trucks, but more to the point, I don't use surprise and trickery to teach new lessons to young horses. In my opinion, you got lucky with your rope trick, had things gone south you'd have had some injuries to a nice horse that didn't deserve same, not to mention the breach of trust. I prefer to teach that lesson in a round pen, with a soft rope.

[Sithly]

As I said before, I don't care where or how you tie your horse. What's stupid is posting here, expecting everyone to love you, then stomping off in a huff when they don't.

When it comes to tying, I agree with Guilherme

There's an old proverb: Trust in Allah but tie your camel.

We teach our horses to ground tie. It's a useful skill and helps deal with a tendency to "move away" as soon as they feel weight in a stirrup. But we don't exepect "ground tie" to substitute for "broke to tie."

Well trained horses behave IAW their training until something comes along that breaks that training. A horse tied "eye high, arms length, with and to something that won't break" means you'll not have a long walk home or a loose horse working mischief (or mayhem).

G.

I also think it's stupid to take needless risks just for the sake of taking them. Especially when you seem to expect others to pat you on the back for it. I realize everyone has a different comfort level when it comes to risks, but really, honestly, not everyone thinks it's a good idea to do some of the things you've done, and it's not because their horses aren't trained.

Try that beside a busy highway in a completely strange place. Ground tie the horse and then crawl in the back of the truck to get something you forgot. Remember a strange place beside a busy highway. To run is also a good chance to die. Would you tie or leave him loose under these conditions??

See, stuff like this doesn't impress me. It just makes me question your judgement.

Ground tying is not infallible -- even very well-trained horses walk off sometimes, as you've proven with this thread -- so why on earth would you ground tie your horse in that situation? There are plenty of ways to test your training without putting your horse in mortal danger.

Here's an unrelated example.

Say I can jump my horse over three-foot fences. I've done a lot of practicing, and he's very reliable. He'll jump anything I put in front of him.

Would I, just for fun, jump him over a three-foot barbed wire fence?

Um, no. Even though the odds are good that nothing would happen, it would still be a stupid, pointless risk. There are plenty of other things I could jump him over to test my training with less chance of disfiguring or killing him if he fails. And he will fail, sooner or later, because he's an animal and animals are just as fallible as people.

Not only would I NOT jump him over the barbed wire fence, I would also NOT jump him over the barbed wire fence and then post here bragging about how my horse is so well-trained he survived in spite of me.

[Shadow14]

slithly.

Try that beside a busy highway in a completely strange place. Ground tie the horse and then crawl in the back of the truck to get something you forgot. Remember a strange place beside a busy highway. To run is also a good chance to die. Would you tie or leave him loose under these conditions??

See, stuff like this doesn't impress me. It just makes me question your judgement.

Ground tying is not infallible -- even very well-trained horses walk off sometimes, as you've proven with this thread -- so why on earth would you ground tie your horse in that situation? There are plenty of ways to test your training without putting your horse in mortal danger.




I was giving an example of where I would NOT ground tie. I had that ring in the corner of my truck for a place to tie. It was put there for tying and in strange places I tie either to the trailer or this ring.
Again this was an example of where I would tie securely
I was giving this in response to someone else who claims there horse ground ties fine. I would not NOT trust my horse completely so he would be tied.

this is absolutely stupid that you guys can only focus on the fact that I occasionally tie to a truck. That truck pulls your trailer, you rely on it for brakes, for pulling your load on the highway. Why can't it also be used as an anchor point for a horse???
I have a proper installed ring, a heavy duty ring, a ring attached to the solid structure of the box. It is alot better then some tie to.
If you wonder why I get frustrated with posting here it is stupid things like this that alot of you can't seem to get past. That is why I pulled the post in the first place. Not because of questions asked but because of the constant attacks. Again it never seems worth the trouble of bothering.
Horses are alot nicer then people.

[Auventera Two]

There's an old proverb: Trust in Allah but tie your camel. :)G.

Haaaaaaaaaa OMG you owe me a new keyboard!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :winkgrin:

If there's a mountain out of a molehill here, there's old fart up north toting a shovel.

Good lord you guys, cut it out before you get me fired for laughing!!!!!!!!!:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Norval (Shadow14) - You know you're my bud and I like you alot. But seriously, you've never owned a hot headed arabian mare have you? I think at one point you said you've only owned geldings. Sweets will tie anywhere to anything, no questions asked. I've tied her to a teenie little sappling that was about 1/4" in diameter and barely taller than her chest. She just stands there......and stands there....... but if I've learned just ONE THING in my journey with her, it's that the moment you start pushing her and demanding some kind of time table, you better pack up your gear and just go home. That mare will NOT tolerate being pushed.

She'll go to the end of the world and back for you if you just back off and give her 3 seconds to think it over and then decide - Okay, I think I can do this for you. But the MOMENT that you tell her "You WILL do XYZ and YOU WILL DO IT NOW!" then you just better get used to the fact you're gonna be walking home alone.

She's intelligent, and athletic and has more "try" in her bones and heart than any other horse I've ever known. But she HAS to feel like she's a partner with you. If you get angry at her and "take her down a notch" she will promptly flip you the finger and erase your name from her address book.

In my personal experience (personal experience ok - no hard scientific data here), I've found dominant alpha mares - particularly the hot/sensitive ones - to almost always function in this same capacity. You might be able to buffalo over top of a lower ranking gelding, but I've never ever seen success come about when somebody wants to dominate an alpha mare.

When the vet came out to do her microchip, he walked up to her and tried to grab her nose (to hand- twitch her) with one hand, and grabbed the crest with the other hand. She flew backwards and tried to rear. Couldn't due to low ceiling but she'd have gone straight up on her hind legs if she were out in the open. I told him - please just scratch her for 10 seconds and let her smell your breath, and then she'll do anything in the world for you.

Sure enough - she is SO predictable. She stuck her nose up to his mouth/nose, and started sniffing. He scratched her crest for just a few seconds. Then he grabbed her top lip and twisted it, stuck the needle in, and it was done before you could blink. But if I weren't there to tell the person to just back off a second, they would have declared her a stupid fool and put a chain on her nose and threw her up against the wall and they'd have been wrestling a tiger.

Sensitive/hot/intelligent mares just don't take kindly to rough handling, in my experience.

[sublimequine]

Oh look, a thread where Shadow is bragging how his perfectly perfect horse is perfection, and he was the greatest person in the world, and we city folk don't know NOTHIN bout trainin them tharr horses.

To quote katarine..

:sleepy::sleepy::sleepy:

[Auventera Two]

slithly.

Try that beside a busy highway in a completely strange place. Ground tie the horse and then crawl in the back of the truck to get something you forgot. Remember a strange place beside a busy highway. To run is also a good chance to die. Would you tie or leave him loose under these conditions??

In that situation, I would hang onto the end of the rope, and crawl in to get whatever I need. Busy highway doesn't scare my girls NEARLY as much as a turkey flying up out of the weeds on a relaxing trail ride. The highway noise is constant and predictable. It's that SUDDEN stuff that blows up out of nowhere that gets us into trouble.

But even so, I would be VERY uneasy tying a horse to a truck. Sharp sheet metal, valve stems, paint job, ugh. There is a very likely possibility that either my horse or my truck will suffer and I don't want to chance either.

I can't imagine a situation where there would be a horse and a truck on a busy highway but not a horse trailer or a tree to tie to? :confused: Or someone to just hold the horse?

I just try very hard to NOT get myself into these life and death situations that require extreme measures. I try to ride in safe locations. Yes I do ride roads but I've never found a need to tie one up on the side of the road. I'm usually using the road as a throughput to the trail head.

When we do organized fun rides, I tie her to trees if its allowed, or I just take her with me up to the food tent or behind the bushes to pee. She's far more interested in bumming a hot dog off the server than being left alone somewhere.

When we do endurance rides, I've not yet found an instance where I had to tie her somewhere unattended out on the trail. Not saying it won't happen, but I generally stay on the horse and stay moving down the trail so it's not necessary to tie and leave her.

[Calico]

If you wonder why I get frustrated with posting here it is stupid things like this that alot of you can't seem to get past. That is why I pulled the post in the first place. Not because of questions asked but because of the constant attacks. Again it never seems worth the trouble of bothering.
Horses are alot nicer then people.

I will never understand why people say stuff like this, yet hang around and whine about it. If you don't like an internet bulletin board, leave. Seems simple to me.


And Katarine, you are a scream!! :lol:

[Sithly]

I was giving an example of where I would NOT ground tie. I had that ring in the corner of my truck for a place to tie. It was put there for tying and in strange places I tie either to the trailer or this ring.
Again this was an example of where I would tie securely
I was giving this in response to someone else who claims there horse ground ties fine. I would not NOT trust my horse completely so he would be tied.

Ah, forgive me. I must have misunderstood that post and the numerous others you've posted on the same subject, like this one from another thread:

Can you honestly say you could leave your horse standing in a strange driveway near a busy road in a strange large city and just get off him, tell him to wait for you and walk confidently to the house, ring the bell and when answer walk in knowing your horse will be exactly where to left him when you went in. My longest time totally unattended was 1 hour 20 minutes and he waited for me. Untied, not restraint in any way but a voice command???


Hmm.

this is absolutely stupid that you guys can only focus on the fact that I occasionally tie to a truck.

Only a few posters have even mentioned the truck. I don't think that's the issue here.

[Shadow14]

I can't imagine a situation where there would be a horse and a truck on a busy highway but not a horse trailer or a tree to tie to? :confused: Or someone to just hold the horse?

.

When the bugs start I head for town. It is about 4 miles away and they have beautifully cut boulevards and they go on for miles. There are also places where you can pull over, off the road, some really nice places but they are narrow. If I have a partner I try and put both horses on the same side of the trailer to isolate them from the noise of traffic. I often tie in this situation to the truck and my partner ties in the regular location.
They usually have a big wall isolating the houses from the noise and I am between the wall and the road. While it sounds bad it can offer miles and miles of great running on cut grass. Parks with a stream running through it is a bonus..
A2 I will not own a mare and when horse hunting only look at geldings. I had a great mare in 86 but that is my last.
Even in the farm yard I might tie to the truck, saddle out of the back of the truck or bath with the warm water I carry. On all rides in the summer I carry a good supply of hot water.

[Shadow14]

Can you honestly say you could leave your horse standing in a strange driveway near a busy road in a strange large city and just get off him, tell him to wait for you and walk confidently to the house, ring the bell and when answer walk in knowing your horse will be exactly where to left him when you went in. My longest time totally unattended was 1 hour 20 minutes and he waited for me. Untied, not restraint in any way but a voice command???


That was my old guy Strider, I was leaving the barn and the vet arrived. He asked me if I could give him a hand. I just told Strider to wait there and went and helped him. The time passed quickly but by the clock it was about 1 hour 20 minutes. Where was he going to go?? Back to the field. Not Strider.
I did leave him in farmers yards, ground tied while I went in the barn but again that was Strider, totally reliable, totally trained.

As for unsaddling and stripping the bridle and leaving him unattended again that was Strider and totally dependable. If I came back from the tack room and found him gone it was only because the stable owner told him he could go to his stall. He learned to stay and then I trusted him to do what was right. I groomed him by going into the stall, touching his neck, lead him out and then just stop and tell him to stand. He would not move again until he was told he could return to his stall.
Rio for grooming in the barn he is not tied, but hobbled and on trail if I stop for any length of time the reins are dropped and the hobbles are put on the front feet.
This was a horse that I had for 17 years and he was reliable for whatever.
Rio is new, is in training but is becomeing reliable.

[Shadow14]

Oh look, a thread where Shadow is bragging how his perfectly perfect horse is perfection, and he was the greatest person in the world, and we city folk don't know NOTHIN bout trainin them tharr horses.

To quote katarine..

:sleepy::sleepy::sleepy:

Getting your lick in too Sublimequine. Go back to posting about your 100 foot ride down the highway.

[Sithly]

Getting your lick in too Sublimequine. Go back to posting about your 100 foot ride down the highway.

I find it interesting that you can say things like this out of one side of your mouth, and out the other side complain about how mean people are.

[sublimequine]

Getting your lick in too Sublimequine. Go back to posting about your 100 foot ride down the highway.

Why don't you just LEAVE COTH FOREVERZZZ OMFGS!!! like you always do? :lol:

[katarine]

Interesting, or predictable?
Where's the darn carrot cake, anyway?

[Shadow14]

A2 the horse he is standing beside is his pasture/stable mate and it has nothing to do with fighting. It has to do with space. I don't want to throw my saddle over his back and have my sturrip hit his partner. Or bath the horse and find myself wedged between 2 wet horses.
It is only about space,convenience.
As for the grass, I have been doing this for 25 plus years and no problem. No personal lawns involved. I ride through the university around their lake and I have a water hose that I spray the horses down. In the park I dip water out of the river and cool him down there. I even took Strider one time into my office. Yes I lead him down the hall into the lab.
I live in Amish country and people are use to seeing horses and there doesn't seem to be a problem.

I am dropping out of this post. It is going no where but bashing me. You have a nice weekend A2. I didn't take today off because the weather is not co-operating.

[sublimequine]

Interesting, or predictable?
Where's the darn carrot cake, anyway?

I would also like to know the current location of the cake... :D

[Auventera Two]

I groomed him by going into the stall, touching his neck, lead him out and then just stop and tell him to stand.

All 3 of mine can be led around the farm by a chunk of mane hair. I think its much easier for horses to learn our language when they're worked with every day. That's the beauty of having horses at home - you're out there interacting with them every single day - twice a day. When you board, sometimes life gets in the way and the commute and all that and its hard to get out more than a couple times a week.

I do vacciantions and worming with no halter, no leadrope. Just walk up, put a hand over the nose and squeeze the plunger. Or stick the needle in, push the plunger and go on about my business. But these girls are handled frequently without any head gear because quite frankly I'm often just too lazy to walk back to the barn to get a halter. :lol:

Norval, I think the ladies here just get a little ticked because you don't give them enough credit for what they can accomplish with their own horses. :) That's all.

Have a good weekend Norval, hope your weather improves! If all goes well, I want to get in a long ride tomorrow. First competition is in 2 weeks and I am nowhere NEAR being ready. I've been so busy with hoof work this year its been increasingly difficult to get time to ride.

[candyappy]

[/QUOTE)
As for tying to a truck?? You tie to a trailer, why not a truck. What if you didn't care about the truck and had a ring on the side to tie to?? What is different about that then a horse trailer.
I care about my truck and have a very neat, strong ring inside the box right inside the tail gate and I can just ie to this if I choose and groom and saddle from the back of the truck?? AGain what is wrong with this??[/QUOTE]

I don't think it has anything to do with the truck itself. I CARE about my horse and we put them in jeopardy when WE put them in a situation where they can cause themselves harm. A trailer is a solid wall they are tied to. It is designed for it. The worst that can happen there is the welded ring is broke? You had a lot of rope there and a truck bed, in a panic a horse can get in a real wreck there.

If I ruin my truck ( 2000 F250) that's it for me so I wouldn't do anything to put that in harms way either. It sounds like you take great pride in your horses and their accomplishments and you certainly ask a lot more of them than I ever would mine. But they just don't have the ability to act the same way every time they are put in a situation. There could be that one time he is tied to the truck and something scares him beyond his ability to obey his training ( there are NO Bombproof horses). I for one could never forgive myself for hurting the horse I love.

[CatOnLap]

I try and give my approach to training horses. I try to share my experience, to give others ideas on maybe something they could try. If we just sit back and wait for someone to ask a question then the question might never get asked. I have a method that turns out great horses, and I do it in about 1 1/2 years. Not 10-20 or 30 years but 1 1/2 years.

I restored the original post because I didn't see anything particularly wrong with it. I don't use those training methods, but I am familiar with them from decades ago experiences with old horsemen. Shadow's horse did not get hurt, thats the bottom line for me.

But Shadow, know your audience. Check the demographic survey for these forums. Most people posting here make a lot of money, own a lot of horses, and have a LOT of experience- such that they consider themselves expert horsemen. The newbies who you are trying to reach are few and far between on this bulletin board, and yes, its better to respond to their questions.

Otherwise, when you lay out your methods, there are many of us who do not agree and will say so-usually that leads to some spirited debate among us, not "I am taking my toys and going home because you guys are a bunch of meanies who don't know a good horse trainer when you see one". There are many of us who are good horse trainers here.

[kookicat]

You are in a confined area. The horse is safe even if it runs off. Try that beside a busy highway in a completely strange place. Ground tie the horse and then crawl in the back of the truck to get something you forgot. Remember a strange place beside a busy highway. To run is also a good chance to die. Would you tie or leave him loose under these conditions??
I too ground tie every time I unsaddle and he is in the open beside a highway but I am within arms length.
How about ground tying in a persons driveway, agian in a strange place, beside a busy highway and go in the house for a quick chat?? Would you trust your horse under this situation.
Or riding through a farms yard and the horse craps on his paved yard. I ground tie, go get a broom and shovel and clean up the mess. Would you expect your horse to stand patiently and be there when you return?
There are times to tie and times you can just ground tie.

Nope. I don't take my horses into the city. Think of the mess they'd make! :winkgrin:

I take my horses hunting every winter, and yes, they will stand while other horses mill around them. Of course, it's a very rare situation that I have to leave them to stand alone, because I'd rather have someone at their heads. They are horses, after all. ;)

Oh, and folks? I don't have carrot cakes, but I have cookies and am willing to share. Chocolate chip anyone? :cool:

[sublimequine]

Nope. I don't take my horses into the city. Think of the mess they'd make! :winkgrin:

I take my horses hunting every winter, and yes, they will stand while other horses mill around them. Of course, it's a very rare situation that I have to leave them to stand alone, because I'd rather have someone at their heads. They are horses, after all. ;)

Oh, and folks? I don't have carrot cakes, but I have cookies and am willing to share. Chocolate chip anyone? :cool:

WE WERE PROMISED CARROT CAKE!!! :mad::mad::mad:

:lol:

[mp]

Try that beside a busy highway in a completely strange place. Ground tie the horse and then crawl in the back of the truck to get something you forgot. Remember a strange place beside a busy highway.

Try that beside a busy highway in a completely strange place. Ground tie the horse and then crawl in the back of the truck to get something you forgot. Remember a strange place beside a busy highway. To run is also a good chance to die. Would you tie or leave him loose under these conditions??

Can you honestly say you could leave your horse standing in a strange driveway near a busy road in a strange large city and just get off him,tell him to wait for you and walk confidently to the house, ring the bell and when answer walk in knowing your horse will be exactly where to left him when you went in.

You seem to have a fascination with busy roads and strange places, Shadow.

No, I wouldn't ask my horse to ground tie under those circumstances. It seems counterproductive and entirely avoidable. I have had situations when I had to trust my horses to stay under my control in potentially dangerous situations. But I didn't test them under those circumstances to be sure beforehand. I train to gain their trust, so if we're in a dicey situation, they'll look to me and follow my lead. So far, so good.

I didn't see anything particularly bad about tying your horse to your truck, either. Not something I'd do, but if what you're doing works for you and your horse, great.

Just don't expect everyone to agree with you. Or applaud you. Or think you're the best thing since tube wormers. Surely you're mature enough to understand that.

[Auventera Two]

OMFGS!!!


Just one thing I have to know............what does the "S" at the end of this stand for???????????:lol:

[sublimequine]

Just one thing I have to know............what does the "S" at the end of this stand for???????????:lol:

Nothing, it's just a silly way to add more drama to OMFG. Because while OMFG is dramatic, the plural, OMFGS!!!, is much more so. :lol::lol::lol:

[Auventera Two]

:p ah-ha, got it!

And yes, absolutely, one must nev-ah pass up the opportunity to add more drama whenever possible. After all this *IS* coth :lol:

[katarine]

Carrot Cake is now available on Shadow's tailgate.


Good luck beating his horse to it.


back to the OP...I don't and didn't care that he chooses to tie his horse to his truck. I read the OP, thought 'eh' and went on with my day.

Only when it got interesting did I get interested :)

[kookicat]

WE WERE PROMISED CARROT CAKE!!! :mad::mad::mad:

:lol:

Not by me! :eek::lol:


Blame Miss Katarine for that one. :yes:

Oh, and Shadow, I never said I have a problem with you tying your horse to whatever you want. I said that I have a problem with the overall tone of your posts. :cool:

[chaltagor]

Nope. I don't take my horses into the city. Think of the mess they'd make! :winkgrin:

But then you could just go get a stranger's broom and shovel, as we have been educated to do by the master, and clean it up! But where strangers keep their brooms and shovels, and where you put the manure, he's neglected to mention.

[JackSprats Mom]

I have no issues with what folks do with their horses so long as they don't hurt them but this :

Try that beside a busy highway in a completely strange place. Ground tie the horse and then crawl in the back of the truck to get something you forgot. Remember a strange place beside a busy highway. To run is also a good chance to die. Would you tie or leave him loose under these conditions??


Is just plain negligent!

And yes, you did imply in the way you wrote that, that you would do this.

[sublimequine]

Carrot Cake is now available on Shadow's tailgate.


Good luck beating his horse to it.


back to the OP...I don't and didn't care that he chooses to tie his horse to his truck. I read the OP, thought 'eh' and went on with my day.

Only when it got interesting did I get interested :)

Well I'd go and get the cake.. but if it's a trap like he set for his horse.. I may get secretly tied up, then become afraid, and have to kick the tail lights out of his truck in my blind panic. :o

:lol:

[Hoofprince in Mud]

Well I'd go and get the cake.. but if it's a trap like he set for his horse.. I may get secretly tied up, then become afraid, and have to kick the tail lights out of his truck in my blind panic. :o

:lol:

Whatever you do, don't break a leg. The results are never good.

Shadow, if you continue to provide dead end stimulus to dominate your horse, eventually the horse shuts its brain down. The eye tends to have a glazed, jaded look.

You also seem to have some confusion about the purpose and difference between tethering, and ground tying your horse.

When you tether or tie a horse, you should never have the rope between the horse and the object tied to, on the ground, where the horse may trip or tangle himself up. It is a safety issue. You can tie your horse to your truck, trailer, grand piano, whatever, but as Mr G mentioned, arms length between the horse and where the horse is tied.

When you ground tie a horse, the rope maybe long enough to drape on the ground, because it is not attached to a fixed object. Infact, it works well to have the rope touch the ground, to give the horse a physical connection to the ground. A horse trained to stand in such a manner cannot easily torque the rope tight enough its limbs to damage itself.

Feeling that you might well be the needed guru to people who wish to learn about training horses from the information they receive on bulletin boards, could be a tad ill conceived on your part, because you haven't addressed potential safety hazards the horse may face from your training methods.

[Guilherme]

Tying a horse to a truck can be done, assuming you've got a proper attachment point. At a recent event I saw a crew cab dually with a flatbed and "headache" rack. The bed and rack were very stoutly constructed. The owner had welded two tie rings to the rack, one on each side of the truck. I seriously doubt any horse could have removed either of those tie rings by "setting back." :)

Long, loose ropes, reins, etc. are the Devil's Tools when around tied, unsupervised horses. They violate the KISS Principle and invite problems. Any horse, no matter how well trained, can have a "Monday." The well trained horse has damn few, but the potential is always there.

Hard tying a horse is one of those times where an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

G.

[mortebella]

I think Guilherme's post may sum up most of the concerns of those who are arguing against Shadow's "teaching method." I'm not at all interested in pouring gasoline on a fire here, but I just feel like, from my point of view, it needs to be pointed out that horses can and do break their necks panicking from feeling "caught" and then struggling against something that won't break. Do we need them to learn to stand tied? Of course. Would it be better if they came to associate feeling pressure of being caught on something with "normal" being tied? Yep. I just don't see that in this case it was what Shadow did or the way he did it that enabled Rio to make that connection, it was the fact that he got lucky in this instance and that Rio's a smart horse, disinclined to panic. Now, maybe Rio's panic instinct has been lessened because of other work Shadow's done, but you don't get that cumulative effect out of the way this was presented. Another horse could certainly give you a very different result - undesirable to say the least for both horse and truck, and at that point, stopping the whole thing before it goes further south is probably going to have an undesirable impact for the human too. Also, I'm not sure how literally to take "walking away" (as in leaving the horse and truck unattended) but that raised a red flag right there that was upsetting to me - apparently though he actually WAS observing what was going on. Still yet, what was he gonna do at the point when things crossed from a "hard hit" to full-blown panic? I assume most of us have seen how fast that happens. I was just brought up to put safety first in all things horse (as safe as you can be :)) and training methods that invite accidents, just, for me, fly in the face of that prime directive. (Shadow, please understand this doesn't come from me wanting to pick on you - this is written in the spirit of me giving my explanation of the dynamic I see at work behind a lot of the comments.)

[Guilherme]

Just to ensure that there are no misunderstandings, I don't advocate "break away" tying in any way, shape, or form. We tie a horse so it stays tied. Anything else hazards not only the horse but all the folks around it.

There are lots of stories circulating about horses suffering fatal injuries from being hard tied. I have never read a formal report demonstrating this result. All have been anacdote, some first person but most third person ("a friend told me that..."). I have seen horses suffer some "road burn" from struggles, but they healed up quickly enough with no permanant consequences.

We tie a horse arm's length, eye high, with and to something that won't break. If I think we'll have a problem I'll put a "donut" made of rubber in line to add a "shock absorber." But I under no circumstances would I have any sort of "give" in the system (beyond my shock abosorber).

G.

[Beverley]

There are lots of stories circulating about horses suffering fatal injuries from being hard tied. I have never read a formal report demonstrating this result. All have been anacdote, some first person but most third person ("a friend told me that..."). I have seen horses suffer some "road burn" from struggles, but they healed up quickly enough with no permanant consequences.


G.


I have witnessed one death- early 1960s, really along the lines of a freak accident. Beloved steady eddy, quite long in the tooth, was tied in a Johnson halter and suddenly pulled back, not hard- the consensus was something like a bug bite or sting on the nose disrupted his nap. A few minutes later, he went down and died soon thereafter. That little metal piece that held those Johnson halters together under the jaw had hit hard enough to sever the jugular. But, as I note, a freak thing- I do firmly agree on teaching a horse to hard tie, and like you I've never actually seen injuries or fatalities when the process is done right.

[Shadow14]

I have never seen nor heard of a horse breaking his neck from tying. Not in my lifetime anyway. I would not own an animal that I couldn't hard tie.
A little history. I got Rio on Sept 19 of last year. He was a stallion, absolutely no training but a stud chain over he nose, no cross ties, no tying.
His training began Sept 20th and I spend about an hour a day schooling him. He solid ties very well, hobbles both front and back. One set of hobbles or two, it doesn't matter to him. He has worn hobbles most of his time with me nearly every day. He tethers from the left hind because that is what I chose but I can tie any leg up and he will NOT fight it. So far he shows no sign of panicaing in any situation. He is also showing he is fearless and anything that he seems to notice we will ride up to and he will ride right over it if is not stopped.
He ground ties well but I am always within say 5 feet to correct him if he doesn't stand properly.
Again I have never seen him panic and I push situations all the time, I create situations to further his training
My truck has a proper secure ring welded to the subframe that he can not break.
Each day he goes to the back of my truck where he ground ties, gets untaced and then brushed or hand grazed.
On this day I wanted to see if he would remain ground tied if I disappeared so with about a 12 foot neck line around his neck and the rest laying on the ground I securely tied the end to the ring on the truck and left.
He walked around the side of the truck heading for the barn and was brought up sharply by the rope once the slack went out. He then spun around , leaned into the rope and then walked back to where I had left him and stood. I returned, patted him for being a good boy and took him out to graze.
This is not a horse that panics, not a horse that doesn't have alot of training in situations involving tying and hobbling and tethering.
Did he not learn anything from this???
I will not own a horse that explodes under situations. It is not worth the amount of money I spend in the long run. I have never owned a horse that didn't respond well to situations but then agian it could be the way I handle them, the way I train them that seems to make the type of horse I want.

[candyappy]

Shadow,

That might explain your success so far. You said you won't own a horse that explodes. You can probably spot the temperament you want right away, the type of horse who will accept what you will be asking of them.

[Shadow14]

Shadow,

That might explain your success so far. You said you won't own a horse that explodes. You can probably spot the temperament you want right away, the type of horse who will accept what you will be asking of them.

When I pick a horse I watch him run free, get a feeling for his movement and then ask permission to tie one leg. I have a way of tying a leg so I can slip it if the horse explodes. Anyway with someone helping me I tie at least one front leg and one hind leg. Right off the bat before I buy I tie and if the horse doesn't explode and my heart says he is right I buy, don't argue price , just buy but he must demonstrate that he will accept.
The instant I saw Rio my mouth just dropped and those watching me said my eys just lit up. I asked to turn him loose in amoung there shed of large hay bales and watched how he handled this strange setting. He flew in amount the bales into a dead end row and never showed the slightest fear. I then tied his legs. He hardly cared and I bought..
He hopefully will be my partner for the next 30 years and he will be extensively trained over the next year and the first 6 months have shown he has alot of potential and can take it.
I have unlimited time, the constant drive to improve him, the know how and he will become another Strider. Strider at 23 is alive, sound and was my partner for 17 years before I retired him to a much easier life.

[Shadow14]

I just remembered I also blindfold all my guys. I forgot this but I throw my jacket or something over the eyes to test again how they react. Since none of my horses care about this I don't practice it but in the beginning I will throw something over his head while being groomed and if they don't react it
isn't practiced.
So if the horse appeals to me tie a leg , blindfold and if he passes both of these test I feel he will handle what I want from him
I will not consider a mare.

[Sithly]

There are lots of stories circulating about horses suffering fatal injuries from being hard tied. I have never read a formal report demonstrating this result. All have been anacdote, some first person but most third person ("a friend told me that..."). I have seen horses suffer some "road burn" from struggles, but they healed up quickly enough with no permanant consequences.

Well, here's another anecdote for you, for whatever it's worth. ;)

I haven't seen one die, but I've seen one break a vertebra in his neck. He survived (after a huge vet bill and almost a year of rehab), but still holds his head crooked and has a few funny quirks now. He's still ridden regularly and is otherwise fine.


In general, I will hard tie. I expect my own horse to hard tie as a matter of course, but if I have an explosive horse or if the footing is unsafe (in the trailer, concrete washstall, etc.), I will use The Clip. I don't feel it's fair to the horse to hard tie in those situations. If he slips in the washstall or I hit the brakes too hard in the trailer, he'd be breaking his neck through no fault of his own.

Anyway, I like the Clip because you can use it without allowing the horse to break away. You tie a stopper knot about a foot down from the Clip, and the rope gives enough to take away the hard stop, but the horse can't pull the rope through and get free. The pressure only releases when he steps forward.

I don't like the elastic ties, personally. Not only are they dangerous, they also don't release right away when the horse steps forward. IMO they teach horses to pull (or at least to be less sensitive to pressure).

Say the horse pulls back one foot, then thinks better of it and steps forward six inches. Rather than releasing instantly, the elastic tie still puts pressure on him after he's done the right thing. It won't release until he's all the way back. Elastic ties "ignore" all the small increments that are so important to the horse's learning.

[kookicat]

I really don't understand. Why would you want to tie a horse by his leg? That's asking for trouble IMO.

[Sithly]

I really don't understand. Why would you want to tie a horse by his leg? That's asking for trouble IMO.

I'm sure Shadow14 will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he meant "tie a leg" in the sense of tying it to a solid object. Most people tie a leg by running the rope up around the horse's body or around the horn of a western saddle (or just holding it). You wouldn't tie one to a post or anything.

IMO it's pretty valuable for a horse to experience having its leg tied. Teaches them to accept restraint calmly.

[Beverley]

I'm sure Shadow14 will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he meant "tie a leg" in the sense of tying it to a solid object. Most people tie a leg by running the rope up around the horse's body or around the horn of a western saddle (or just holding it). You wouldn't tie one to a post or anything.

IMO it's pretty valuable for a horse to experience having its leg tied. Teaches them to accept restraint calmly.

Often in the back country one puts a horse on a tether attached to a leg so they can graze. Just a matter of training, as in teaching a horse to wear hobbles.

That said however, as previously stated, I would not ever consider Shadow's 'trap' for his horse and would not recommend that anyone try it. I prefer to teach that in other ways.

[kookicat]

Thanks. I'm still not sure I get it, but I'm getting there. ;) :) Both of mine accept restraint calmly anyway, because they have been taught to tie, and are used to it. Rue usually goes to sleep if he's tied for longer than a few minutes! ;)

[Sithly]

Often in the back country one puts a horse on a tether attached to a leg so they can graze. Just a matter of training, as in teaching a horse to wear hobbles.

Everyone I know of that does this does quite a bit of training first. You wouldn't go look at a new horse and tie his foot to a stake right off the bat. I'm assuming (or hoping) that's not what Shadow14 meant. :lol:

Definitely a valuable skill for a horse to have, though.

That said however, as previously stated, I would not ever consider Shadow's 'trap' for his horse and would not recommend that anyone try it. I prefer to teach that in other ways.

Amen to that.

[sketcher]

I don't always agree with Shadow, but jesus murphy on a crutch. You all realize you are being little wingdings about the fact a guy tied his horse to a truck.. and nothing else?
.

Did I just read that he also ties a horse by his hind leg to a lawn chair?

[Shadow14]

I'm assuming (or hoping) that's not what Shadow14 meant. :lol:

Definitely a valuable skill for a horse to have, though.



Amen to that.

Rio has had his legs tied for about 6 months. He is quit use to wearing hobbles, both front and back and he is use to having just one leg tied. The left hind. This is nothing new to him and he certainly doesn't care.

If you want to try something with your horse, get someone to help you and put a soft rope folded around one front leg and then with you standing beside the horse get your assistant to ask the horse to take one step forward but you prevent the leg from swinging forward. Not the first time but in 2 or 3 tries the horse should calm right down and just stand with his leg held by your rope. If he panics just release one half of the rope and he is free. Do this 3 times on each leg for a few days and the horse is then ready for a SOFT hobble, and I don't mean soft leather but a SOFT link between the cuffs. Suprisingly most horses seem to accept this very readily.
When you had your friend lead the horse forward and you had one hind leg held with the rope, the horse moves forward but you are holding the rope so the leg is suspended in the air, have your friend then back the horse a step which puts the leg back on the ground. This is a start for tethering a single hind leg. Practice this a few days with a friend until the horse gets the idea that when the hind leg goes tight and up in the air all he has to do is back a step and the leg is back down and pressure release. . Buy/make a soft cuff, put a lead rope snapped to this cuff and then lead the horse getting him use to dragging the rope. If he accepts you are ready to graze.
Now one lead rope on the hind cuff and one long one clipped to the ring just back of the eye, not under the chin and standing off to the side let him start eating. You have the hind leg lead in one hand the halter lead in the other. Now start slowly using the hind leg more to control the horse and less dependency on the halter. If the horse walks off move a little in line behind the horse and halt the hind leg, it will probably go in the air but then gently pull back on the halter rope and say back. If the horse backs he instantly gets his leg back on the ground and he turns in the direction you pulled the halter. Honestly in just a few day the horse is accepting the hind cuff and over a few weeks you confidence in his being controlled by the one hind leg grows you will take the halter line off and just graze with the one hind leg.
It really makes life alot easier for grazing and your horse has learned to accept his legs being restraint.
Try the hobbles, try the leg restraint.
Again Rio is totally use to both and never is bothered by stepping on his lead, having any of his legs restraint and this walking away and finding he was still tied to the truck suprised him as I intended to do.
I wanted him to learn the just because dad walks away he suddenly can't forget his ground tie and leave too.
He has been prepared for everything I do to him beforehand and accepts.
If your horse ever hooks a wire in the grass and he is hobble trained they don;t fight, they just stand and wait for dad/mom to rescue them.:)

[Shadow14]

Did I just read that he also ties a horse by his hind leg to a lawn chair?

I don't tie him to a lawn chair. I put a cuff on his hind leg, a long rope snapped to the cuff and then with a lawn chair, a good book, the dog and usually a cat we go out in a choice piece of grass, turn the horse to graze, set my lawn chair on the end of the rope, sit in said chair, dog curls at my feet, cat curls in my lap, I read my book while scratching the cat. The 4 of us spend a relaxing quiet hour enjoying each other's company.
What part of that is a problem?? Certainly not from the horses point of view, he is kneed deep in great grass, the dog is happy to be with me, the cat loves the warm lap and the scratching and I enjoy the book with my friends around me??
Again what is the problem????
I have done this for years if the weather is nice I am out there every evening.

[Shadow14]

Guys think about the US cavalry in the 1800's fighting indian wars. Hundreds of men, maybe thousands in the field and I don't believe they would have hay wagons following along. Yes they had a roll of grain with them but they ate native grass. HOw did they do this?? Each trooper held his horse by a lead rope?? Guys shared the job and while one slept the other grazed 2 horses?? Again I don't know but I don't think so. I beleive they tethered their horses on the native grass and slept or did camp choirs.. I read all the time about tethering the horses for the night. Yes I am aware of the rope lines but that was for saddling and making ready to depart.
The horses had to spend the night grazing. Rope corrals that big?? Covering acres?? I don't think so.
To tether was the only practical way and if you haven't tried it don't be too quick to judge. Horses quickly learn to adapt, to accept.
Hungry horses don't care how they are fed just as long as they are fed:D:D

[Guilherme]

In the field during the Plains Campaigns horses were grazed steadily during the day unless the march was "forced." The troop would dismount at regular intervals (1-1 1/2 hours) for 10 min. or so of marching, 10-15 min. of hand grazing (if available) then remount and do it again. Each trooper carried a grain bag with 12 lb. in it (IIRC). Additional grain would be carried in wagons or, more frequently, on mule trains handled by civilian contractors.

When camp was made (usually a couple of hours before dusk) horses were hobbled and staked out to graze, with troopers on watch to guard against theft, stampede, etc. At night they were brought in and put on picket lines. If possible native grasses would be cut as "green chop" and be fed over night. On the Plains this was often not available.

It was not uncommon for horses to lose 25-35 pounds on a march. This was compensated for in a small way by "feeding up" the horse slightly before the march began.

There was also a major in military discussion publications about the ideal cavalry horse. There were advocates of the TB/WB type (seen in Europe and the eastern U.S.). There were advocates of the "mustang" type (well suited in some ways to survival in arid areas with poor forage). There were advocates of the "Indian pony type" (sort of more refined mustang). There were advocates for mules. The U.S. even tried camels prior to the Civil War. (I have a friend who has an original U.S. camel saddle, perhaps the only stock, original in existence; he says the Smithsonian people are after him constantly to gain that saddle. :cool:)

One way the U.S. Army dealt with the type issue was to have units move without horses. The Army had already learned that big, American horses did not fare so well in the rough terrain of the Great Plains or Southwestern Deserts. If a unit from the East was to be posted to a Western fort they would arrive by train (or steamboat) without horses and take over the "local" horses used by the unit they were relieving. When that unit went back East they would take up the TBs left back home.

An excellent book on the practices of the Frontier Army is 40 Miles A Day On Beans And Hay. It's available from Amazon (and other places too, I'm sure).

G.

[katarine]

A trainer I worked for in high school hard tied a green as grass 3 YO to a cedar tree. Tied high but a little too loose in the knot. Horse sat back, fought himself some slack, panicked, leaped forward, slammed into the cedar tree and dropped dead. Broke his neck at the poll. That was somewhere in the 1985-86 range in Ashville, Alabama.

Satisfied? :no:

I believe in hard tying. I believe in teaching a horse to learn to accept pressure and relent to it, give to it softly. I know when my TWH managed to hang his cheekpiece of his halter in the spring attachment that holds my slant dividers up...he accepted it and rode that way down the interstate for who knows how far til we stopped and checked them. There he stood, not happy but not panicked, wondering perhaps why he was 'tied' this way. Fixed that issue on trailer of course, but that horse dealt with it fine.

I do NOT believe in putting a horse through such a life that he must just do as he's told. I watched a 14 YO girl on a 7 YO mare clean the clock of such a trainer yesterday in a obstacle challenge. Her little mare was bright, soft, interested, honest. His horses? Dull, vacant, drones. I'll take that mare. He thought he was all that and a bag of chips for riding his good horse up onto a moving flat bed trailer getting pulled over a field. My thought? Ego in overdrive. Negligence. And taking advantage of that horse's good nature.

[Shadow14]

Anyone here watch the Kentucky Derby last night?? Does anyone here NOT know of a horse that died on the track?? Does anyone remember last year when the gallant filly 8Belles went down??
Do we still watch the race? Do we get on our band wagan and condemn all racing??
We have trouble comming up with a horse that died because of hard tying and yet every single one of us knows of a horse that died on the track??:(:(

[goeslikestink]

they were tied now was they---- it happens everywhere its the risk one takes when competing at any dispiline
its not in the same context you speak off

your methods are of harshness and not politeness so horse is forced to xyz rather than asking politely to do xyz

[Shadow14]

your methods are of harshness and not politeness so horse is forced to xyz rather than asking politely to do xyz

That'll be the day I say Please do this. No way but then again you don't know me or how I am around the animals. I spend more time then anyone with my horse, more time grooming, more time grazing, more time tending his needs. So how can you say I am not polite.
Have you seen me around abused animals? Have you seen how Rio comes running the minute the truck pulls to the barn?? NO, none of you have seen how the horses come to me so don't judge too quickly.

[Icecapade]

The U.S. even tried camels prior to the Civil War. (I have a friend who has an original U.S. camel saddle, perhaps the only stock, original in existence; he says the Smithsonian people are after him constantly to gain that saddle. :cool:)



G.

wow... I thought NO one knew about that. My dad bought the move Hawmps I believe. A very neat story.

=)

Hard tier here.

Agree partially with side A and partially with side B.

horse should tie to almost everything, personally not my choice.


And yes my horse SHOULD be able to tie to my truck... but I love my truck and refuse to do so becaues while I love my horse, I don't put him in a situation where he can lose. Must be a stallion thing.

[Shadow14]

Hard tier here.

I don't put him in a situation where he can lose. Must be a stallion thing.

What is meant by this.. If you hard tie you are putting the horse in a situation where he will loose if he chooses to leave??
A conflict of terms??? Hard tie/not loose??

[pj]

Shadow, I don't think anyone gives a flip if you tie your horse to a truck.
I think many (like me) hate the idea that you put your horse in danger. Going over an enbankment that you "know we can't make", ground tieing next to a busy highway, etc. etc. etc. Leaving a horse ground tied next to a busy highway and going in a house to Visit! I don't think you can see past the end of your nose. S#it happens and CAN spook the most SOLID horse. A pack of dogs can come up and attack. A stupid kid decides to target practice on your horse with a bb gun. Now I've never known of these to happen but it's not impossible and if it did I can't believe your horse is going to stand there quietly and take if because he's ground tied. I think my mare is as solid as any horse I've ever known but I know that somewhere out there there is something that would spook her. She is a horse after all. Heck...there is something out there that would spook ME.
My horse and I work as a team and she got where she is by me saying "you CAN do it" not "you Will".
How does this grab you (as if I didn't know) :D There have been a couple of occasions I've asked her to go down somewhere steep and she looked and told me "I think it's better right over here." If she tells me that unless I see some reason I think she's wrong, and she never has been, I go down her way. OMG!! She THINKS.
Reminds me of once my mule (who also could think and had instinct that worked in a good way, too) told me we should Jump this stream. I insisted we were NOT going to jump we were going to wade through. We did and sunk all the way up to my hips in mud.
You'd better bet that if that mule had ever told me again we should jump a stream I'd have said go for it. I should have listened to him instead of being Miss HAVE to be in control every single second. I knew this mule didn't object to water, he had swam (swum?? somebody tell me) rivers for me for heavens sake!

[Shadow14]

Shadow, I don't think anyone gives a flip if you tie your horse to a truck.
I think many (like me) hate the idea that you put your horse in danger. Going over an enbankment that you "know we can't make", !

Where in this post did we start talking about banks I couldn't make??


A young 3 year old comming to a strange part of the country totally green is in no way going to know the lay of the land more then someone who has travelled every inch of it on foot and on horseback for 50 plus years? If I say jump he will jump.
If people rely on horses to think for themselves how do people get them over huge jumps?? By saying please?

What seems to bug most people is that I train my horse to respond to a command and expect it to be quickly followed. The slightest shift of weight means something to him and if you watched me turn him you wouldn't see the suttle shift. Reins are backup in case he misses the cue but in no way are they used to send a command threw contact with the bit. The bit rests in his mouth and is only used again as a back up if he misses something.
No his brain is always alive waiting for the least signal that I want a change.
I ride in heavy reins so he feels the shift of their weight, not the pull but the shift of their centering and weight.
No contact whatever and alot of use of the legs and butt.
I certainly don't agree he is brain dead, I feel his senses are even more alive then ever.
Was it the 3rd commandment that say " Put your trust in me and I will not let you down"" I train and then I trust.

[pj]

Where in this post did we start talking about banks I couldn't make??

Not in THIS post but you did post that and it Still bugs me.



If people rely on horses to think for themselves how do people get them over huge jumps?? By saying please?

Nope. When I had jumpers I would handle the horse starting with poles on the ground.
We went up from there two inches height and width at a time. When we got to "huge" jumps the horse was so confident in his/her own abilities and in their trust in me that it was never an issue. After all I'd never asked them to do something that would hurt them and they knew they could handle whatever because they could do
anything I'd ever asked them to do.
Anyone who just took a green horse up to a 3-1/2, 4 or 5 ft. jump without any confidence or knowledge of jumping and says JUMP BECAUSE I SAY SO is either an idiot or wants to damage themselves or could care less about their horse.
I've known people who are so show offy and stupid they push green horses faster than the horse needs. They usually end up with horses that rush jumps (know they have to do it and want to get it over with as quickly as possible, or, dirty horses that will run out, stop or do other stuff like bucking


Just mho

[Kyzteke]

Where in this post did we start talking about banks I couldn't make??

If people rely on horses to think for themselves how do people get them over huge jumps?? By saying please?


I think she was referring to one of your other posts...the one where you started to tell everyone how to go down a steep hill...I think that thread went South (so to speak) pretty quickly too.

First of all, most horses have a sense of survival that we humans lack. In addition, their sense of smell & hearing (and long distance sight) is far superior to ours. Every one of my horses knows when the electric fence is on and when it's off, but I (brilliant human that I am) have to either touch the fence or go check the charger to know.

So who is the dummy there?

As for jumping big jumps, take a stroll over to the eventing forum sometime...you would be amazed how many riders (and big, successful event riders), often let the horse "take over" when it comes to some of the more complicated jumps. After all, its the HORSE that is doing the jumping. Most of these guys will also tell you that in most equestrian sports, the rider's biggest job is staying out of the horse's way!

But Shadow, you are a control freak down to your very core, and that seems to be the cornerstone of your "training."

I tried staying out of this thread, because it's just more of the same when it comes to your philosophy vs so many of the other posters. I've had it happen both ways -- I've let the horse make the decision when I could have made a better one, but then I've had horses choose better than me. Alot depends on the horse's background and level of intelligence. There are stupid horses & stupid people.

But when you form a TRUE partnership with a smart, 'thinking' type of horse, it is a grand, liberating feeling to trust them to the point where you actually let go. And when they come through for you the bond becomes so deep it's almost impossible to describe.

Once again, most of your training is "old school," and my only "beef" is simply that there are better, smarter, (ultimately) more effective ways to do it....so why not use them?

But I have no doubt that you aren't really 'cruel' to your horses. I just think you might find a whole new world waiting for you & Rio if you tried letting go alittle.

Edited to add: Lucinda Fredricks (winner of this year's Rolex) made this comment about her (Rolex winning) mare, Headly Britannia: Despite Fredericks' vast experience, her knowledgeable mare made some decisions of her own. “No, things didn’t quite go according to plan at the lake,” laughed Fredericks. “Brit’s a funny little thing, she very strong and quite difficult to manage at the start of the course. “I’d always planned to do the long route at the sunken road. I just had a bee in my bonnet about it, and that’s what I was going to do. I was making up time and she sort of opened up quite a bit, and I came around the corner and saw this nice open distance. I had planned to go in six strides and it turned into four. Brit took control.”

Worked out pretty well for them....

[goeslikestink]

That'll be the day I say Please do this. No way but then again you don't know me or how I am around the animals. I spend more time then anyone with my horse, more time grooming, more time grazing, more time tending his needs. So how can you say I am not polite.
Have you seen me around abused animals? Have you seen how Rio comes running the minute the truck pulls to the barn?? NO, none of you have seen how the horses come to me so don't judge too quickly.

good for you dont generalise and say this is the best method
lots of people have methods that have been done that way since year dot
your is just a harsh -

[Icecapade]

What is meant by this.. If you hard tie you are putting the horse in a situation where he will loose if he chooses to leave??
A conflict of terms??? Hard tie/not loose??


A situation where he will lose. If he is trained to hard tie... which he is... in a safe situation its a win win situation. Its as *best* as it can get- albiet not perfect as we know things go wrong.

If I tie him to something suspect, a bendy tree that if he pulls it bends and tickles his back and he spokes, thats a losing situation- cause I did something dumb.

I tie him slightly off to himself he has no chance to flirt with another horse and I don't have to discipline him. We win. If I tie him to a mare in season about 3 feet away, I have to stand there and be mad... its a losing situation. I ... me the owner set him up to fail.

He is trained to tie, but I do my best to set it up so he can win. its harder to explain this online in person for some reason, but its just a mentality that I have. I never try to leave him in a compromising situation. I try to set it up so he can chose to behave w/o issues. Now if he flips out for no reason thats his choice... but if he flips out cause of a mare, either he is chosing or I set it up wrong.

Like I said, just trying to set it up so we both win... I train him and there on out we try to set things up. I think its perfectly fine to tie to a truck w/ a rig set for that... if its built for that then its a win situation- unless he choses otherwise....

If it isn't and you just tie to it and soemthing goes wrong then its a lose situation... does that make sense?

[matryoshka]

In a thread about fighting being tied, it sure would be nice if you guys would discern "loose" from "lose." It's confusing, and people on COTH don't seem to realize that "loose" means to be free from restraint, while "lose" means to not win. :D In this case, misspelling really changes the meaning.

(I often see the same thing on shoe threads, where people talk about "loosing" a shoe, and I don't know whether it has come loose or has been lost.)

[Icecapade]

In a thread about fighting being tied, it sure would be nice if you guys would discern "loose" from "lose." It's confusing, and people on COTH don't seem to realize that "loose" means to be free from restraint, while "lose" means to not win. :D In this case, misspelling really changes the meaning.

(I often see the same thing on shoe threads, where people talk about "loosing" a shoe, and I don't know whether it has come loose or has been lost.)

ha ha ha sorry... mz english minor here was paying about zero attention... too busy looking at the trees getting lost in the forest. =)

[spaghetti legs]

http://www.ec-online.net/knowledge/Articles/control.html

Some Coping Strategies

1) Stay as calm as you can. Control freaks tend to generate a lot of tension in those around them. Try to maintain a comfortable distance so that you can remain centered while you speak with them. Try to focus on your breathing. As they get more agitated and demanding, just breath slowly and deeply. If you stay calm and focused, this often has the effect of relaxing them as well. If you get agitated you have joined the battle on their terms.

2) Speak very slowly. Again the normal tendency is to gear up and speak rapidly when dealing with a control freak. This will only draw you into the emotional turmoil and you will quickly be personalizing what is occurring.

3) Be very patient. Control freaks need to feel heard. In fact, they do not have that much to say. They have a lot to say if you engage them in a power struggle. If you just listen carefully and ask good questions that indicate that you have heard them, then they will quickly resolve whatever the issue is and calmly move on.

4) Pay attention to your induced reactions. What is this person trying to emotionally induce in you? Notice how you feel when speaking with them. It will give you important clues as to how to deal with them more effectively and appropriately.

5) Initially, let them control the agenda. But you control the pacing. If you stay calm and speak slowly, you will be in command of the pacing of the conversation.

6) Treat them with kindness. Within most control freaks is a good measure of paranoia. They are ready to get angry and defend against what they perceive is a controlling hostile world. If you treat them with respect and kindness, their paranoia cannot take root. You will jam them up.

7) Make demands on them-- especially when dealing with the type 2 control freak. Ask them to send you something or do something for you. By asking something of them, you will be indicating that you are not intimidated or diminished by their behavior patterns.

8) Remember an old but poignant Maxim: “Those who demand the most often give the least.”

Keep in mind that control freaks are not trying to hurt you – they’re trying to protect themselves. Remind yourself that their behavior toward you isn’t personal; the compulsion was there before they met you, and it will be their forever unless they get help. Understand that they are skilled manipulators, artful and intimidating, rehearsed debaters and excellent at distorting reality.

[matryoshka]

Spaghetti Legs, you just described the majority of people on COTH--no wonder there are so many arguments here! Thanks for the giggle. I will say in response to item 1, though, that staying calm sets many control freaks off. It's one way to get under their skin if you are that kind of person, and I am one who sometimes likes to quietly get under explosive people's skin and cause a conflagration. I know it is mean, but sometimes I just can't help but provide an ignition source. ;)

Also, your user name brings back fond memories of taking lessons as a kid. I had spaghetti legs for sure. Then I had a spaghetti back, and arms. I think I'm made of pasta.

[Icecapade]

2) Speak very slowly. Again the normal tendency is to gear up and speak rapidly when dealing with a control freak. This will only draw you into the emotional turmoil and you will quickly be personalizing what is occurring


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