Sitting the Trot - Ouch!

[WB Mom]

I was able to watch a recognized dressage show, which is probably the second one I've been able to really sit down and watch for a longer period of time. I am in absolutely no way very experienced in Dressage. Some of the rides were absolutely a thrill to watch. One, however, stood out from all the others. This was a second level test. The horse was a very large grey and the rider was, let's say quite robust. The thing that stood out was the fact that this woman absolutely could not sit the trot. I am talking about someone that was stiff as a board and literally banging down on the horses back every stride.
Yes, I sat there going 'ouch' every stride, thinking the horse was a saint.
Why would a trainer let their student progress to this level, and still not be able to sit the trot? How often have you seen riders like this? I guess I'm not experienced enough and didn't think I would see this at this level. I am at Training level and know it can be very hard to learn to sit the trot. I can't even imagine showing at First level without being able to do it fairly well, let alone going to a higher level.
Your thoughts and observations would be helpful in filling in this knowledge gap for me.

[MelantheLLC]

Well I can tell you one thing, I've seen plenty of stick-thin riders who were stiff as boards banging on the horse's back and hanging on the reins, so it must not just be the fluffy ones. ;)

[merrygoround]

Instructors can't insist that their students only ride the levels in which they are competent. :) There was a huge discussion recently on the subject of qualifying to move up. Most of the posters thought it was grossly unfair.

The rider you observed, not only was incapable of sitting the trot, they were also most likey incapable of riding their horse round and engaged even at the rising trot. What yopu needed to see was the score that rider received for that ride, in comparison to the other rides. ;)

[Daatje]

I scribed once in Westchester for a lovely German judge. During the sitting trot of a 3rd level test, she leaned over to me and said, "you know what I call that? I call that a Ca-chunka-chunka rider....." and she chuckled while shaking her head. :)

[cu.at.x]

I scribed once in Westchester for a lovely German judge. During the sitting trot of a 3rd level test, she leaned over to me and said, "you know what I call that? I call that a Ca-chunka-chunka rider....." and she chuckled while shaking her head. :)

Well that's a bit of a mean-spirited thing to say. :-(

[bort84]

Well that's a bit of a mean-spirited thing to say. :-(

Not really. That was probably just the sound she thought of when she saw the rider... or maybe the sound the saddle made, haha. Doesn't necessarily mean she thought the rider was chunky (many thin riders also sit the trot poorly). Maybe it's a German thing, haha. At least when I read it, I didn't think, oh, she's calling the rider chunky. I read it as an onomatopoeia = )

[Gloria]

Why would a trainer let their student progress to this level, and still not be able to sit the trot?

I don't believe the instructor has any final say about which level his/her student is allowed to compete. All they can do is making recommendation and it's up to the student to agree or not. Besides, this rider might do a great job at home. She might just get nervous and stiff up at shows. I have seen plenty of that.

[Daatje]

Not really. That was probably just the sound she thought of when she saw the rider... or maybe the sound the saddle made, haha. Doesn't necessarily mean she thought the rider was chunky (many thin riders also sit the trot poorly). Maybe it's a German thing, haha. At least when I read it, I didn't think, oh, she's calling the rider chunky. I read it as an onomatopoeia = )

Precisely. The rider was quite thin, actually......just couldn't sit the trot and was "ca-chunking" around in the saddle. :D

[Aral83]

Instructors can't insist that their students only ride the levels in which they are competent. :)
Actually they can, but most don't. ;) Many students can't take being told they aren't ready to move up. They hear they aren't good enough. Then they move on to someone who will let them move up. So insisting will likely result in loss of business for an instructor.

[slc2]

Sounds to me like robust horse and robust rider were well matched. I doubt it was really a serious problem as far as harming the horse, and I'm sure the judge scored it appropriately.

When a person is heavy, certain parts of the anatomy are under the influence of the combined forces of momentum and gravity, with predictable results. It may not look terribly elegant, but usually, no rabbits will be smothered.

[Spyromaniac]

I would hope that being able to sit the trot would be a prereq for any test that required you to ride the trot sitting. Unfortunately, that is not the case.
Also - having soft hips IS possible, regardless of your weight. Many people do not have the patience to ride enough sitting trot with no stirrups to develop the *perfect* sitting trot before trying something more challenging, though. I am definitely including myself in this statement!
I'm sure the rider was aware that she was stiff, it sure feels worse to me when I get tense and nervous than when I am able to soften and go with the horse's movement.

[Adair]

It's a pretty common sight, and not a pretty one :)

There is one good thing that comes out of it, though:
I feel a whole lot better about my riding when I see someone competing at the upper levels riding like that!

[AmandaandTuff]

As a person who started out riding bareback/western, I think my sitting trot will be fine when I make my appearance at my first dressage show :)

[Valentina_32926]

When my Dutch mare is resistant it is impossible for even the best riders to sit her trot. So maybe in this case it was a tension thing - like she can sit it most days at home but in that particular show situation horsey didn't relax (and probably rider didn't either) and back was like a trampoline.

[Petstorejunkie]

I have mixed feelings on the fluffy rider issue. while i've been 100lbs over weight and a balanced rider years ago, i know i was not as effective as i am now at my correct weight. could that be because of the weight? or because i take lessons 3 days a week now? What i do know is to STAY that effective i do 20 minutes of core exercise daily.... as well as cardio work and ride 6 days a week. i think if you are that committed to riding the weight should come off, plus i do think twice about what goes in my mouth... concluding that it is difficult to think of a fluffy rider as being committed to their sport and doing their best. i've been fluffy and it does make a difference.

but the question was how does a trainer allow their rider to compete like that? most trainers imho offer incomplete instruction, and while they may ride well themselves they have a difficult time bringing a rider along correctly and communicating to them how to improve. Most of the riders i see competing at the lower levels have equitation set backs. I knew a lady half way to her bronze that rode with a contracted leg and intermittent contact with the bit... but her horse rounded his face and back and trotted on tolerating it... :no: I literally gave her one word picture and her whole position improved. So why couldnt her instructor she spent $400 a month on do that? geez, who knows.

[Equus_girl]

I went to Rolex last year and was amazed at how many riders could not sit the trot.
As Sally O'Connor commented "any horse and rider could run and jump, but lets see how they do in dressage"

[cu.at.x]

Oh ok, I thought it was a reference to weight: "chunk a chunk". I don't think I have to remind everyone that size has little to do with riding ability. Sure, if you're 75+ pounds overweight, it's going to interfere with your fitness, but a few extra pounds is not a huge deal (providing the horse can handle it of course.) I have seen some skinny riders who can't ride to save their life! :no:

[jengersnap]

As a person who started out riding bareback/western, I think my sitting trot will be fine when I make my appearance at my first dressage show :)


(laughing) I actually enjoy sitting trot, for the same reason. Western rider who likes putzing around bareback. And I'm green as grass at this dressage thing. We just started in December. My lessons tend to have an experianced beginner, not always the same one, and sitting trot is part of their rides. I wasn't being asked for it yet, but gave it a shot anyway and now I do it when my knees ache to keep going with the exercise but give them a rest. My mare and I are like metronomes at the sitting trot and I love it :) Well, as long as I don't have a full bladder...

[Fly_High]

I scribed at a local dressage show last summer and one rider was so floppy at the sitting trot that the judge kept saying please don't fall off, come on buddy stay on the horse. I am going to my first dressage show this weekend and frankly I am glad I don't have to sit trot. I am an eq rider and used to pray for the sit trot to be called because I am good at it and many other riders are not, but the jumper horse I am showing right now has a miserable trot. Quite possibly the hardest horse I have ever had to sit, even if he is completely lifted, round, and forward.

[Hilary]

I have to admit to being appalled at the lack of ability to sit the trot I witnessed at a USDF dressage show last summer. If you are going to buy a nice 3rd level horse PLEASE also learn to sit his trot.

Rider size was not a factor in this, but lack of time on the lunge without stirrups sure seemed to be. The horses, meanwhile, plunked around seemingly regardless of sitting ability or contact. It is also possible to get through a 3rd level test with loops in your reins. I didn't know that.

[blackhorsegirl]

I agree with petstorejunkie: Weight is not a big deal if you and your horse fit each other but fitness is important. Even if overweight you can be strong. I'm old (60), tall (5'11"), and overweight. However, I receive 7's and 8's in the collective remarks for rider. I took 2 years to learn to sit the trot. I work with a personal trainer in Pilates twice a week. I take regular lessons on the longe. Sitting the trot well takes a little effort.

Here's a thought: "Patience and persistence are vital qualities in the ultimate successful accomplishment of any worthwhile endeavor."

Joseph Pilates

[mickeydoodle]

I think lots of instructors tell their students what level to show. I also think lots of students do not listen. I know one rider who has been told by multiple instructors, including really BNT ones, even one who just won the World Cup that they should not show their horse at a higher level, but the rider just goes along and does it anyway.

[merrygoround]

As a person who started out riding bareback/western, I think my sitting trot will be fine when I make my appearance at my first dressage show :)

Them there stirrups just may get you in trubble. :D :D ;)

[Ambrey]

I thought all my years as a western rider would make sitting the trot second nature, but it turns out that my trot sitting muscles done forgot what they was supposed to do!

My psychic powers see a winter FULL of longe lessons in my future ;)

[dalpal]

As I travel the dressage road....I now realize that MOST people have trouble sitting the trot because they have no idea how to actually get their horse's back up and engaged. Once you understand WHY you sit and how to encourage the horse to engage those muscles, it's rather hard to bounce on most horses.

Also, I see soooo many riders, riding with HEELS UP, and this will do nothing but pop you out of the tack.

Once I realized how to open and then encourage my horse to use her/his (I have two) back through half halts and transitions...the sitting trot was no longer such a big deal.

Now I do have to laugh because I showed one of our trainers the Katie Price video...this is not a slam on Katie, she is learning just like the rest of us...but he said something about bumping and grinding in the saddle as he watched the video.....now everytime I ride, all I can think about is that freakin video. Please lord, don't let me bump and grind my saddle. :lol::lol::lol:

Of course this is the same trainer who replied to a rider in the ring when she said something about this being hard.."That's okay, if you all could ride, I wouldn't have a job." :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: I was swinging my foot in the stirrup and said.."Now, I don't know quite how to take that" :lol: (Gotta know the trainer, it was true, but all in jest)

[rothmpp]

So - I've seen many a rider, both thin and not, that cannot effectively sit a trot. It takes a lot of work to learn and is certainly related to how well the horse stays round and holds their back. Please - let's not turn this into heavier riders can't effectively sit the trot thread. It's just not true.

[Carolinadreamin']

The problem is some riders are attempting to sit the trot (why? because they somehow they think it appears to make them a more advanced rider?) when they really need to work on their riding, balance, position, etc. If they're struggling in those areas, imagine what's happening to the horse's back when (again, why?) the rider is banging away on their back.

[FancyFree]

The problem is some riders are attempting to sit the trot (why? because they somehow they think it appears to make them a more advanced rider?) when they really need to work on their riding, balance, position, etc. If they're struggling in those areas, imagine what's happening to the horse's back when (again, why?) the rider is banging away on their back.

Very true.

I haven't ridden western since I was an eight year old, but I remember the western jog being quite a bit different than a dressage trot. The western jog was kind of like sitting in an easy chair to me. Comfortable and didn't take a huge amount of effort on the rider's part. When I first learned to sit the dressage trot, it was a completely different ball game. It took me some time to get in synch with my mare's big trot. It takes co-ordination as well as a bit of fitness on the rider's part. If the rider is still at the point where they're using the reins for balance, the last thing they want to do is try and sit the trot. The horse's mouth and back are going to suffer. You need a secure, balanced seat at the posting trot and canter before you should attempt to sit.

[kdow]

If the rider is still at the point where they're using the reins for balance, the last thing they want to do is try and sit the trot. The horse's mouth and back are going to suffer. You need a secure, balanced seat at the posting trot and canter before you should attempt to sit.

Really? I learned to sit the trot before I started doing any canter work. And the guy who ran the stable was pretty obsessive about the basics, so he wouldn't've put up with lots of people bouncing around painfully on the horse's back.

(We did do a LOT of lunge line lessons, though, so you had lots of time to spend learning not to use the reins for balance because you didn't HAVE the reins. :) )

We also did a lot of no-stirrup stuff at walk and trot. No posting without stirrups that I recall, but I definitely remember doing a lesson with no stirrups walk and trot, and being impressed by how it made me more aware of how I should be sitting.

[thatmoody]

Yes, I thought sitting would be easy since I've ridden western all my life, and "thought" I sat the trot. But then I realized that when our horses really trot, we always posted. We would long trot for miles out to a group of cattle, and I would just naturally post a bit (not really posting, but kind of just lifting) just to save my butt.

The big WB and the Friesian that I ride right now are HARD to sit, even for my trainer. I can sit the Andy because he engages easily and is like silk, but both of the other guys (who are greener) need a LOT more work (as do I) before we even try.

[slc2]

LOL. We have many very politically correct truths on this bb - weight does not affect one's riding, any horse can go to the olympics (if the judges would just not be so unfair)...etc...etc....now the western jog can teach u to sit the dressage trot...no.

The western style trot or jog and canter both are nothing like what the gaits are supposed to be in dressage. For most people, it doesn't prepare them for doing dressage. It might prepare them in the sense that in western riding, the person is to be relaxed and sitting upright, and that can help. In hunt seat, the habit of leaning forward and pivoting the leg out from the knee with a fixed ankle and the calf on the horse, closes the hips and makes sitting very, very difficult. In dressage gaits the back moves and the gaits are through a much larger range of motion - the rider has to use his muscles in a different way, sit differently, etc.

Every riding style that people come to dressage from creates specific habits and specific challenges...hunt seat, western, if i had to guess, I'd say Saddle Seat style is the toughest style to come to dressage from, but each style creates habits that are the opposite of dressage.

[thatmoody]

I will say that there is a perception that western horses move slow (jog-trot, slow walk, lope) but one of the things we always looked for in a cow horse was a big, forward gait. You didn't want a pokey horse when you had to cover a lot of miles. We ALWAYS looked for overtrack at the walk and a big, forward moving trot. True, most of our horses were quarter horse type (Florida cracker horses, mostly, although I had several registered QH's) but they were bigger movers than WP-type horses, although NOTHING like the WB or Friesian types. The Andy feels more like a western horse, and in fact reminds me very much of one of my better working horses (no surprise at that!).

So forward was NOT a problem for me - I'm comfortable on a horse moving out, which is not true of one of my former WP friends. I am finding the comparisons interesting - sometimes I feel very much a fish out of water around the barn, but for the most part we manage to appreciate the difference in styles.

Oh, and to bring this subject back on topic, I really appreciated the beach ball reference that someone posted a while back - when I am trying to sit for 2-3 strides between posting I visualize sitting on that big, bouncing beach ball and it really helps :). I realized the other day that I'd only been formally POSTING for a year - that seemed weird to me but made me realize that I'm NOT behind in my learning - I'm just beginning, and so I need to have patience with myself!

[Dressage Art]

Elegantly sitting a trot is a life long journey. You might think you got it and then you ride a horse with a big trot and it feels like you are back to the square 1. Then you bring yourself comfortably swinging together with horse's back and it feels great. But then you need to sit lengthen/medium/extended trot and you'll feel like your back is having a muscle spasm by the end of the diagonal. You take long time to master that one as well. Finally you think that you are done learning sitting trot, and then you see yourself on the video... OMG: too loose here, too tense there... so you work even harder to relax one set of muscles and to tone another set of muscles. you reach the point that you can proudly watch yourself on the video going round and round on circles gently swinging in your back, with your head high, shoulders back, chest forward with no tension in the upper body, your thigh is open allowing your horse to move under you and your calf is toned, gently sticking to the side of the horse like a wet leather, your hands are soft and quiet. Then you go to the show and your ADD horse starts to think about anything but the test, you have to correct your horse on every stride, sending forward here, holding back there, giving half halts all the way… and you’ll feel like your seat is back to the square 1 again... you horse will find the way to tighten his back while spooking at the camera man, or judge, or wind… and you find yourself chanting under your breath: “relax, please relax… just breathe, please don’t forget to breathe….” At home watching a video of your test, you again will wonder, when, oh WHEN you’ll finally be able to master this #%^&* sitting trot?

[Mary in Area 1]

and after all that work, THEN some nice sweet COTH poster will comment on how you looked like a chunka-chunka out there and you feel suicidal!

[Ambrey]

and after all that work, THEN some nice sweet COTH poster will comment on how you looked like a chunka-chunka out there and you feel suicidal!

OK, so I guess I should just give up right now ;)

[bort84]

and after all that work, THEN some nice sweet COTH poster will comment on how you looked like a chunka-chunka out there and you feel suicidal!

Not "chunka-chunka," ca-chunka-chunka. Again, I really don't think this meant chunky. Just means you ca-chunka-chunk on the horse's back, haha. Skinny riders do this too = )

Also, as for learning the sitting trot before canter, most instructors do this (I usually do/did whenever I was doing beginner lessons). But, it's usually a little different than actually sitting a strong forward dressage trot. Usually you get to do a pretty easy trot (hardly an extended trot). Unless you're a youngster who's looking to be very good, you're probably not going to get drilled on a longe at sitting a strong working trot before you're allowed to canter (only a few of us are lucky enough - or driven enough - to get that kind of education). Many riders don't care to get to that point but would like to canter.

Anyway, I did only bareback riding for the first couple of months learning to ride (and then rode bareback quite often until I started actually working a lot of the training horses a few years later - I thought it was great!) But I was also 8 years old and my grandmother was a trainer. It's a great foundation, but not always the best start for a nervous or older rider. There are a LOT of re-riders or new but older riders in dressage.

And, as to the PC thing about heavier riders being just as good as smaller riders, this is one of those person by person things. I have seen many lovely heavier riders and many unbalanced skinny riders. So you can obviously be a great rider even if a bit "fluffy" (I think that's what y'all call it on here). But, it would be a stretch to say that being a good bit heavier doesn't have any impact on your fitness and riding abilities. This doesn't mean you have to be a beanpole (that can be unhealthy too - read some of the hunter threads, haha), but a lot of heavier riders on here have lost weight and described how much easier it made it to ride. I don't really think this has that much to do with sitting trot though - heavy and skinny riders alike have trouble with it = )

[mp]

It's a great foundation, but not always the best start for a nervous or older rider. There are a LOT of re-riders or new but older riders in dressage.

Not always a good foundation, unless you have good instruction, too. Many of the riders I see who grew up riding bareback have a hard time breaking the habit of gripping with their knees.

[FancyFree]

Really? I learned to sit the trot before I started doing any canter work. And the guy who ran the stable was pretty obsessive about the basics

The basics are WTC. I've never heard of someone sitting the trot before they even learned how to canter. But whatever works for you.

[bort84]

The basics are WTC. I've never heard of someone sitting the trot before they even learned how to canter. But whatever works for you.

I think when people do this (and when I do this) it's more of a start at a slow and smooth jog-type trot, just to get you to not brace in your stirrups - because if you do that, you are not going to sit that canter, haha. But again, this doesn't always work for every rider. If you have a horse with a very nice smooth trot (again, when fairly slow), it can really help a rider learn how to move with a horse and not tense up, and that can help learn to sit the canter. But I don't know that I personally know anyone who learned to sit a very forward working trot before learning to canter.

[FancyFree]

But I don't know that I personally know anyone who learned to sit a very forward working trot before learning to canter.

Yeah that's where I'm getting hung up. I always think of "sitting the trot" as a dressage trot. For that, when I was first learning, I would sometimes to grab my bucking strap or be trotted right out the back of my saddle. But I sat the trot as a kid all the time when I rode bareback. Different trots I guess. The latter, more of a pokey one that I could stay on easily. :lol:

[bort84]

Yeah that's where I'm getting hung up. I always think of "sitting the trot" as a dressage trot. For that, when I was first learning, I would sometimes to grab my bucking strap or be trotted right out the back of my saddle. But I sat the trot as a kid all the time when I rode bareback. Different trots I guess. The latter, more of a pokey one that I could stay on easily. :lol:

That's exactly it! And I think that's why some on here have said having ridden bareback/western a lot will only help up to a point when learning to sit a trot that any reasonable non-dressage person would obviously post!!! = ) I started riding dressage after growing up riding saddleseat. I would sometimes sit an animated walk (slow collected trot/piaffe-esque gait allowed in some of the ASB classes) but would otherwise always post.

When I saw some of the GP horses trot, I thought, holy crap! That horse has as much motion as a lot of saddle seat horses, and I'm going to have to learn to sit that?! At an extended trot?! Haha. Yeah. This from an experienced and balls-y rider who grew up riding bareback (and even some western pleasure) and riding 5-10 horses a day... There's certainly a nack to it, and having a horse properly working over his back helps, but it's definitely no cakewalk to learn to sit a big mover...

[kdow]

Also, as for learning the sitting trot before canter, most instructors do this (I usually do/did whenever I was doing beginner lessons). But, it's usually a little different than actually sitting a strong forward dressage trot. Usually you get to do a pretty easy trot (hardly an extended trot). Unless you're a youngster who's looking to be very good, you're probably not going to get drilled on a longe at sitting a strong working trot before you're allowed to canter (only a few of us are lucky enough - or driven enough - to get that kind of education). Many riders don't care to get to that point but would like to canter.

We did kind of touch on 'sticking in the saddle at a canter without yanking the horse's mouth' before going back to lots of trot work, if I'm remembering right. So it's not like it was completely ignored and you'd be screwed if your horse decided to canter on you - but it was definitely along the lines of "okay, now you know you won't fall off if that happens, back to getting a good trot now."

It was only after a bunch more trot work (though not the extended trot specifically, as far as I remember - lots of getting a *good* trot, though, no lazy stuff) that it progressed to actually *working* at the canter in terms of controlling the quality of the gait, good bend, etc.

(I doubt that many of the school horses had that really huge 'warmblood' trot, though, no matter how much forward energy you got into them. So I'm sure if you'd've thrown me up on one of them even back when I was riding really regularly, I would've had a heck of a time. :) Most of the school horses seemed to be rescues that had been rehabbed for the program rather than horses selected for big dressage gaits.)

[Ambrey]

Well, since sitting the trot comes at first level, and extended trot doesn't come until...what, 3rd level?... there is some time between being able to sit a working trot, a medium trot, and an extended trot.

[WB Mom]

In no way did I envision starting a thread about 'robust' riders. This just happened to be the test that stuck in my mind. Now, I am absolutely sure this probably does not apply only to this type of rider.
I was just suprised at the inability to sit the trot at this level. I wondered why a horse/rider combination would progress to this level without being able to sit the trot - at all.
I cannot even envision riding at first level without being able to sit the trot adequately, let alone going above this level.
Maybe I am too naive?

[slc2]

Maybe. Since we have quite a few people griping that they should be allowed to post at first level because they don't sit the trot yet, 'strictly for the good of the horse, of course'.

There are two camps....one watching on the sidelines complaining how 'appallingly' people ride at a level higher than they ride, and the other complaining that they can't move up a level because they would have to sit the trot at the next level.

I would LOVE to see what happens when these two groups meet socially, over a nice dinner, say. Clash of the Titans?

"I have to admit to being appalled at the lack of ability to sit the trot I witnessed at a USDF dressage show last summer"

A USDF dressage show?

1.) People DO ride at a higher level at times than they should.

Oddly enough, in the 'gentle', 'artistic' sport of dressage, about 99% of people are seized with a strange ailment that hits them after showing for a while, 'Gotta-Get-Out-of-Training-Level-itis'. After a while, they start to feel like they are losing face, and they gotta move up. Not only that, they start to see that there are five or four or three horses in first and second level, instead of 35 or 45, at training level. 'Upstairs' starts looking like a good place to get a ribbon.

Remember, we have a large contingency here who have very loudly stated, 'What difference does it make if I do badly at a higher level? I ain't hurtin' nobody!'

I'm really not so sure it's because they don't have a trainer screaming at them, 'over my dead body!' People don't listen to anyone when they want to do something badly enough.

People really do feel that if they ride poorly at a show, it's nobody's business, and this is the land of the free and the home of the brave. A LOT of people feel that way.

2.) Nobody rides 'better' at a show than they do at home.

The fact is, people can be doing reasonably well at home, and they get to a show, the horse gets a little strong because he's so happy to be at the show (shows are organized solely to give other horses a chance to congregate and turn in to freight trains while they look around and admire eachother, you know).

The horse doesn't react quite the same to the aids as he does at home, gets a little stiff in the bridle, falls on his forehand, tightens up his back, and that makes the rider basically sitting on an 'iterative ejection seat'*. He starts trying to 1.) fix it, which he can't, so he winds up flopping around.

3.) First and second level riders get a LOT of criticism from the peanut gallery.

First of all, keep in mind that anyone riding at first or second level is a target for a lot of very, very, sharp evaluation from the training level crowd, who are done riding, and now have all the time in the world to 'be appalled'. People tend to be EXTREMELY critical of first and second level riders.

They knock it off a little bit with third and fourth level riders, perhaps because they seem so distant, or because they are doing flying changes. But you go to a show sometime, and see who people pick on the most.

A lot of this is a psychological thing - they cut down the people just above them, not those further along than that.

Realistically, first and second levels are very difficult to ride well. Second level is definitely the worst of the two. Second level has been called 'the struggle level', why anyone would expect to see perfection in everyone, or even anything near that, in the class is totally beyond me. Unlike Training, you are now grappling with actual dressage, rather than just riding figures, and very often, struggling with a horse that is becoming more and more challenging as you try to move up, often due to innate conformation and balance problems.

Too, realistically, most riders are going to top out here. For most riders, second level will be the hardest level they ever ride in their lives. Most people don't get past that. Try to work out why.

I think it is because it is harder.

4.) People aren't at a local show because they are the best riders in the country.

The bottom line is, 'what do you expect?' You expect everyone in a sport to ride really well? At a local show, you expect people to be sitting the trot perfectly? Do you also go to MacDonalds and get 'appalled' because you can't get filet mignon, with champignons and shallots, in a french sauce that has been meticulously reduced to a demi-glas, after 12 hours of cooking, starting with roasting bones, and a very nice little rare red wine from a dusty cellar in France?

Some of the people I see at 'levels-above-training-level' don't sit well. One I know was on chemo for breast cancer during the show. Weak as a kitten. One had a steel rod up her back after a car accident. One rides fairly well at home but gets absolutely paralyzed at shows. At lower levels she's much more of a basket case, a first or second level test keeps her busy. She is just going to have to show and show and show, and she will get better in tiny increments while the railbirds tisk-tisk over how awful she is...and you can bet THAT helps her relax...NOT!

People go to a show to learn, to get a little ribbon, perhaps, as some sort of scrap to keep themselves going. They are usually extremely aware of their deficiencies, thank you very much. The dressage journey is not a fast one, and it has very, very few little rewards along the way and a lot of rough spots. To be perfectly honest, if they can get themselves packed, and SHOW UP, God bless 'em.

5.) Overweight riders just don't look as quiet as thin ones.

Yup, you know it. Quite often these folks are very, very hard to evaluate. They may not actually be riding any different from anyone else in the class, but their extra pounds flop up and down, and make it look like they are riding more poorly than others. Often, there is actually very, very little difference between then and other riders.

A big time trainer has a video on a training website of her teaching a very heavy girl. This is a big name trainer who has no trouble speaking her mind, and I think she had plenty of other videos to choose from, don't you? Yet she chose that one to send in.

No, this girl doesn't look as elegant as some model-thin anorexic little twig. But keep in mind that when you see those anorexic little twigs you don't see their faults nearly as clear. I watched this video very, very carefully. No, this gal didn't look like an anorexic twig. But she was actually riding very well. Her hands were steady and her butt was not bouncing out of the saddle. Her chubby little body didn't look so great, but if you looked very closely, you were in for a big surprise. She was riding VERY well.

Not that this is always true. There ARE people for whom weight is a serious problem when riding dressage. It depends alot on where the weight is and how it affects their balance, if it is weight up front, or if it prevents them from getting their leg positioned properly, I think it is much more of a problem. The heavy rider often has to tense his or her shoulders and lower back in ways that may help to stabilize the weight, but actually interfere with the suppleness we need in dressage.

Depending on that, it can be well nigh impossible to be fit enough to counter -act that weight. Plus, quite often, the person isn't 'fit-fat' at all, just unfit. People do kid themselves an awful lot about that.

6. Do you really have that good of any eye for what the source of the problem is? Probably not. Maybe leave it to the judge and the person's trainer, and just encourage the rider.

*If you think that everyone you see flopping around automatically can't sit the trot, you haven't gotten around enough. If a horse falls on his forehand and tightens up his back, no one is going to look pretty - and that situation can make a lot of very good trot-sitters look 'appalling'. I've seen clinicians take a rider sitting like that and fix them in 20 seconds, because they rebalanced the horse. So if you automatically assume that anyone you see flopping around can't sit the trot, you just happen to be....well...WRONG.

[Equibrit]

What needs to happen is that judges should NAIL those at first level who cannot sit the trot. What a shame - riders would have to be taught correctly and horses trained properly.

OH WAIT - isn't that what all this is about ?

[Coreene]

Equibrit, amen. There is no way the horse is going to be doing any movement correctly with whomp-whomp-whomp slamming down, fat or thin. A half-assed sitting trot does not a first level make.

[Dressage Art]

and after all that work, THEN some nice sweet COTH poster will comment on how you looked like a chunka-chunka out there and you feel suicidal!
Oh no need to go as far as suicidal, some young, frisky horse can do the favor to buck the rider off, causing some kind off injury that will force the rider to re-learn to sit the trot and not pass out from the pain in the process ;)

[Icecapade]

Not always a good foundation, unless you have good instruction, too. Many of the riders I see who grew up riding bareback have a hard time breaking the habit of gripping with their knees.



my problem exactly... I thought as she did... WP and bareback (mostly bareback) was going to make the transition to sitting my lovely big arab trot a breeze.

not.

I pinch w/ my knees and I have to lean way further back than I'm used to b/c I tend to sit forward in my saddle where bareback I sit upright with slightly more closed knee.

not an easy transition at all.

I imagine I will take another oh 5or 6 years to get it *right* and by right I mean just sitting and not doing damage lol. and at that point I'll be in search of a new horse and have to start all over. sweet. =)

[TheHorseProblem]

I scribed at a local dressage show last summer and one rider was so floppy at the sitting trot that the judge kept saying please don't fall off, come on buddy stay on the horse.

I was trying a horse for sale a few years ago, and the seller was a dressage judge. One of her students was a middle aged woman with a third level WB whose trot she could not sit. No matter--according to the judge, there is no penalty for holding on to a bucking strap.

[Equibrit]

There is just no shortcut to acquiring a good seat. This is not a "grins and wiggles" kind of thing to experience and takes some time and hard work. Unfortunately some "trainers" have no idea how to teach it and don't bother to find out. GUESS WHY ??

[Daatje]

and after all that work, THEN some nice sweet COTH poster will comment on how you looked like a chunka-chunka out there and you feel suicidal!

I was simply quoting what the very prominent German judge whispered to me as I was scribing for her. And she said "ca-chunka-chunka" referring to the sound the rider made as her (as it were, slender) butt hit the saddle quite out of unison with her horse......in the sitting trot of a 3rd level test.

Had absolutly totally nothing to do with rider physique and everything to do with rider skill.