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View Full Version : Who uses horse dewormer for their dogs?



tmo0hul
Apr. 26, 2009, 01:42 PM
So I have a BIG farm dog. Since heart worm meds are just ivermectin I have been giving him leftovers from the horses for years. Can I do the same with panacur and safeguard? It seems absolutely insane that I can buy a tube horse dewormer for 1/2 of what it costs to worm the dog with a "dog" dewormer.

Chall
Apr. 26, 2009, 01:56 PM
My vet gave my kitty ivermectin for a tape worm parasite she upchucked. (It was moving after she expelled it- that so grossed me out :eek:). Anyway, took her to vet with now expired worm in a plastic bag, and he gave her banana flavoredivermectin. She seemed to like the taste.
However, everything I've seen about heart worms in dogs would lead me to never try it without a vet. I believe it's one of those cures that can kill as much as the disease itself. I may have this wrong, but I believe the dead worms themselves cause toxicity that leads to death, kind of like hay-to-grass colic.

Ghazzu
Apr. 26, 2009, 02:02 PM
So I have a BIG farm dog. Since heart worm meds are just ivermectin I have been giving him leftovers from the horses for years. Can I do the same with panacur and safeguard? It seems absolutely insane that I can buy a tube horse dewormer for 1/2 of what it costs to worm the dog with a "dog" dewormer.

It's easy to OD a dog on the equine paste formulation.
I've treated a number of cases.
Turned out to be a false economy for those owners...

As far as fenbendazole, be aware that the dog dose is considerably different from the horse dose.

Ghazzu
Apr. 26, 2009, 02:03 PM
My vet gave my kitty ivermectin for a tape worm parasite she upchucked. (It was moving after she expelled it- that so grossed me out :eek:). Anyway, took her to vet with now expired worm in a plastic bag, and he gave her banana flavoredivermectin. She seemed to like the taste.


I suspect it to have been something other than a tapeworm--ivermectin doesn't kill tapes.

Also, the parasite was more likely to have been a roundworm, and the banana flavored stuff was probably pyrantel.

Chall
Apr. 26, 2009, 02:12 PM
Umm, thanks Ghazzu. I knew I was posting over my head. Really bad habit. Head hanging down, toe shuffling. Thanks.

Vivace
Apr. 26, 2009, 02:16 PM
I work at TSC, and we sell a lot of pyrantel to dog owners wanting to save ten bucks on wormer. More and more though, I'm pointing people back to the stuff that is specifically for dogs. I don't want people to come back and nail us because we sold them horse dewormer and they OD'd on it.

Lori
Apr. 26, 2009, 02:28 PM
So I have a BIG farm dog. Since heart worm meds are just ivermectin I have been giving him leftovers from the horses for years. Can I do the same with panacur and safeguard? It seems absolutely insane that I can buy a tube horse dewormer for 1/2 of what it costs to worm the dog with a "dog" dewormer.


I dewormed all of my dogs and my cat with liquid Ivomec and the safeguard or panacur paste (can't remember which offhand). The dog trainer I worked with was an ex-pharmacist and taught me how to use it. Saved a ton of money.

Marshfield
Apr. 26, 2009, 02:35 PM
You can use liquid Ivermecterin as an inexpensive heartworm preventative, but the dose is very, very, small. I've got some breeding kennels that go this route. I'd ask your vet to calculate the dosage for you. I'd stay away from using the horse dewormer paste for all the reasons Ghazzu pointed out.

Nipntuck
Apr. 26, 2009, 03:29 PM
I use Ivomec also, but had the vet verify the dosage. It is tiny - 0.1 ml for my terriers. I use a TB syringe and put it on a bit of canned cat food and they gobble it up. The dog heatworm meds are just too expensive for three farm dogs.

Ghazzu
Apr. 26, 2009, 05:25 PM
I use Ivomec also, but had the vet verify the dosage. It is tiny - 0.1 ml for my terriers. I use a TB syringe and put it on a bit of canned cat food and they gobble it up. The dog heatworm meds are just too expensive for three farm dogs.

Either you have a diluted solution, huge terriers, or you are overdosing.

sfstable
Apr. 26, 2009, 05:35 PM
FYI -- this is something I did not know until recently. So I thought I would post it on this thread as it might be useful to someone else.

Some dogs that are of a "herding" breed are deathly "allergic" to Ivermectrin. It can kill them. There is a test that you can do to test their DNA gene to find out for sure but the test is > $80.

Ben and Me
Apr. 26, 2009, 06:59 PM
The dog heatworm meds are just too expensive for three farm dogs.

Really? You can get a 6 pack of 0-25# Iverhart Plus (generic HeartGuard) on KV Vet Supply for $7.95. So, that comes out to <$4 a month. Heartworm medication is one of the least expensive medications out there...plus, most prevent against a few intestinal parasites (round and hook worms) that I'd imagine your farm pups are exposed to on an almost daily basis. IMHO, not something to skimp on. :)

http://www.kvvet.com/KVVet/productr.asp?pf%5Fid=R26622&0=dept%2Easp%2Cdept%5Fid%3D197%26Tree%3D%2CMost%20 Popular&1=dept%2Easp%2Cdept%5Fid%3D982%26menu%5Fid%3D%26Tr ee%3D0%2CHeartworm%20Medication&2=product%5Ffamily%2Easp%2Cfamily%5Fid%3D1237%26Tr ee%3D1%2CIverhart%20Plus&gift=False&HSLB=False&mscssid=21C85E25BE9C49029AC74F3CE48F27F7

pintopiaffe
Apr. 26, 2009, 08:24 PM
Ahhh... but the Heartguard etc. requires Rx. And *most* small animal vets are loathe to WRITE Rx vs. sell. I don't begrudge them--they don't really get paid very well... BUT, it also requires heartworm test first, which is $$--And obviously I GET that if you give it w/out the test, you can kill them. My point though, is that you pay for the test, and they sort of rope you into buying it from them...

My parents lost 2 dogs to heartworm, including one that was treated... so I know the heartbreak, expense, etc. I am in an area where the risk is about 2%, so I do not do the whole protocol.

I will sheepishly admit, after finding one dog happily chowing down on an Ivermectin tube he stole while was was doing the herd, (subsequent calls to vet, poison control and E-vet clinic) I do, occasionally, give them very small scraps of the leftovers. :uhoh: It is terribly hard to measure. They both weigh around 90-100lbs...

I obviously know they are not of the herding dog variety... and also know it's a risk. I would NEVER recommend to anyone else to be as stupid as I am. :no:

pintopiaffe
Apr. 26, 2009, 08:28 PM
Adding: I do the obligatory fecal at least 1x/yr, and now actually do it OPPOSITE the horse fecals. As my dogs are typical farm dogs and happily chow down on horse manure, the Vet will often comment on the state of the horses when the dog fecal is done.

I've yet to come up with either that shows anything measurable. ;)

Dazednconfused
Apr. 26, 2009, 08:42 PM
I use Ivomec also, but had the vet verify the dosage. It is tiny - 0.1 ml for my terriers. I use a TB syringe and put it on a bit of canned cat food and they gobble it up. The dog heatworm meds are just too expensive for three farm dogs.

If something as simple as heartworm medication is too much, then you shouldn't own the dog in the first place.

Fairview Horse Center
Apr. 26, 2009, 09:04 PM
Yes, there are some breeds of dogs that ivermectin will kill. If you have been using it from the vet safely on your dog, then it is not a problem. You have to do the math conversion.

RECOMMENDED DOSAGES:
Dogs - 2.72 mcg/lb of body weight
Horses at the recommended dose rate of 91 mcg ivermectin per lb

So basically 1/30th of the amount/lb

Dog Chewables Ivermectin
Weight Per Month Content

Up to 25 lb 1 68 mcg
26 to 50 lb 1 136 mcg
51 to 100 lb 1 272 mcg

1 tube of horse dewormer = 113,750 mcg (now why does the dog stuff cost so much?) :mad:

Ben and Me
Apr. 26, 2009, 10:44 PM
And *most* small animal vets are loathe to WRITE Rx vs. sell.

Agreed, but I also imagine that most small animal vets would rather you give a ready-made tablet than trying to dose your dogs yourself. Most vets (in my experience, and I've been around a fair number of clinics) are pretty willing to work with you (and the best interest of your animals) if you explain that times are tight and you'd rather pay $8 than $32. The clinic where I work is often accused of being overpriced, but our vets are always willing to sign the PetMeds requests as long as the dog has had a negative HW test in the last year and as long as the dog isn't overdue (more than 14 days late) on his HW prevention. Different clinics probably have different requirements.

You never know if you don't ask. In fact, you don't even have to ask. You can just go ahead and order the drugs from most of these online pharmacies--they'll do the work for you and fax a Rx request to the vet. The vet just has to sign and fax it back. Some vets may prefer you to order from someone a little more reputable than PetMeds though... ;)

crosscreeksh
Apr. 26, 2009, 11:31 PM
It was my understanding that Ivermectin would kill Collies and cats??????

Ghazzu
Apr. 26, 2009, 11:36 PM
It was my understanding that Ivermectin would kill Collies and cats??????

There's a subset of collies and collie-related breeds that have a defect in the blood/brain barrier, rendering them more sensitive to ivermectin.
Most of them can be safely dosed with the heartworm prophylaxis dose of ivermectin, but not the higher doses often used for treatment of mange.

Cats can be safely given ivermectin if the dose is appropriate.

fancyponies
Apr. 26, 2009, 11:44 PM
I have always wormed my farm cats and Australian Cattle Dogs with liquid Ivermectin wthat we buy in volume for our cattle. My vet approved the dosages I use, and in order to meaure the very tiny amounts (although the safety margin as regards dosing is very large) I dilute the liquid with sterile water in the order of 9.5 cc water to 1 cc Ivermec liquid. I keep it in a brown pharmaceutical bottle in the fridge after it is diluted. To use, I measure with a syringe, take the needle off, and squirt it down the dogs' throats. Works very well. My particular Baywolf line of Australian Cattle Dogs, which I have bred and sold for over 20 years, have not had a reaction to this product in this formulation. Nor have my barn cats. However, this may not appply to all farm dogs or all collie-type breeds. If in doubt, either test for the gene, or use a different drug.

The bonus is that this also kills ear mites, fleas, and ticks.

I also use febendazole and other cattle wormers, but as stated, depending on the particular product and formulation, the dosages may be quite different. My vet has always been willing to calculate the required dosages from the Product Label for me to use.

shakeytails
Apr. 27, 2009, 09:09 AM
http://www.betrbeagle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=1605

Equibrit
Apr. 27, 2009, 09:16 AM
So I have a BIG farm dog. Since heart worm meds are just ivermectin I have been giving him leftovers from the horses for years. Can I do the same with panacur and safeguard? It seems absolutely insane that I can buy a tube horse dewormer for 1/2 of what it costs to worm the dog with a "dog" dewormer.

You can buy Safeguard/Panacur for dogs for very little money.
http://www.heartlandvetsupply.com/cart/index.php?cPath=1_33&osCsid=8beb2acf8f3f7f947e8f512e30a26642

red mare
Apr. 27, 2009, 09:28 AM
If something as simple as heartworm medication is too much, then you shouldn't own the dog in the first place.

What gives you the right to make such a statement? You don't know the poster, the dogs or the circumstances. In today's economy, a lot of people are looking for ways to reduce their costs. I applaud the poster for looking for a way to provide the necessary meds rather than have the dogs do without.

Cielo Azure
Apr. 27, 2009, 09:44 AM
I have always wormed my farm cats and Australian Cattle Dogs with liquid Ivermectin wthat we buy in volume for our cattle. My vet approved the dosages I use, and in order to meaure the very tiny amounts (although the safety margin as regards dosing is very large) I dilute the liquid with sterile water in the order of 9.5 cc water to 1 cc Ivermec liquid. I keep it in a brown pharmaceutical bottle in the fridge after it is diluted. To use, I measure with a syringe, take the needle off, and squirt it down the dogs' throats. Works very well. My particular Baywolf line of Australian Cattle Dogs, which I have bred and sold for over 20 years, have not had a reaction to this product in this formulation. Nor have my barn cats. However, this may not appply to all farm dogs or all collie-type breeds. If in doubt, either test for the gene, or use a different drug.

The bonus is that this also kills ear mites, fleas, and ticks.

I also use febendazole and other cattle wormers, but as stated, depending on the particular product and formulation, the dosages may be quite different. My vet has always been willing to calculate the required dosages from the Product Label for me to use.

And that is being safe, cautious and responsible.

But if you go to pubmed and start doing searches on ivermectin and toxicity and canine, what you will discover is that dogs are very sensitive to OD. There is a recent journal article that comes up about dogs going blind and the leading cause is from dogs licking up ivermectin from the ground after a horse dribbles it out or dogs getting hold of the used tubes and chewing them. The authors also mention that this is a common cause of death in farm dogs (the authors are DVMs at UC Davis).

Letting dogs chew the horse tubes is a really dangerous practice!

Also, when I worm, I watch for dribbles, then take my shoe and rub it into the dirt (so my dogs can't eat it).

Using Ivermectin, and doing it right. I am all about saving money but be safe, educate yourself and don't OD your dogs. Also, if you have collie type dogs, there is a test to see if your dogs are sensitive -if you don't know the lines of your dog.

mswillie
Apr. 27, 2009, 09:55 AM
1 tube of horse dewormer = 113,750 mcg (now why does the dog stuff cost so much?) :mad:

Slightly off topic but I buy the Advantage (NOT Advantix) for large dogs to dose my (many) cats. I can buy 16mL (four 4mL tubes) for just a few dollars more than 3.2mL (four 0.8mL tubes). Same chemical, same concentration. I use a 1mL syringe to portion out the doses. I can dose minimally 5 cats using 1 tube of the large dog size.

Why does it cost almost 5 times as much to get the cat size as opposed to the large dog size? :mad:

shakeytails
Apr. 27, 2009, 10:04 AM
Slightly off topic but I buy the Advantage (NOT Advantix) for large dogs to dose my (many) cats. I can buy 16mL (four 4mL tubes) for just a few dollars more than 3.2mL (four 0.8mL tubes). Same chemical, same concentration. I use a 1mL syringe to portion out the doses. I can dose minimally 5 cats using 1 tube of the large dog size.

Why does it cost almost 5 times as much to get the cat size as opposed to the large dog size? :mad:


Before I was able to get generic Frontline from my vet, I did the same with Frontline. I'd buy the large dog size and use a syringe to measure and apply to my 25# Corgis. It saved me a ton of money.

shakeytails
Apr. 27, 2009, 10:23 AM
For really cheap wormer -when I'm worming horses I get out a syringe and worm all the cats and dogs with this stuff - http://www.revivalanimal.com/store/p/2775-Pyrantel-50mg.aspx . It won't get tapeworms, but it's safe and effective for roundworms. I usually buy the large bottle and most of the time it expires before I use it all. It doesn't taste bad either, so if you have a horse that's incredibly difficult to paste worm, they'll usually eat this stuff if mixed with feed. Oh, and Revival Animal Health is great to deal with- I buy all of my dog vaccines from them.

tmo0hul
Apr. 27, 2009, 11:20 AM
After doing some research, there is Praziquantel (tapes) that you can buy for very cheap as fish meds. There is another dog forum that suggested it, here (http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=268003). Google Fish Tapes. You can buy it in 34mg tabs. Dosage for dogs is 2.5mg/lb I believe. Can also get 170mg tabs for big dogs.

Here (http://www.beaglesunlimited.com/beaglehealth_canineintestinalworms.htm) is another link that has great information on using liquid panacur for worming plus information on worms themselves in dogs.

After seeing the dead & half eaten rabbit in the yard yesterday, I'll be worming them again tonight. :dead:

Equibrit
Apr. 27, 2009, 11:54 AM
Why does it cost almost 5 times as much to get the cat size as opposed to the large dog size? :mad:

Because they have to pay for a package and the cost of putting it in that package.

IronwoodFarm
Apr. 27, 2009, 12:36 PM
Ivermectin is great for mange. A few years ago, my son's guinea pigs got mange. I took them to a small animal vet and he charged me $60, each, to tell me they had mange. Then he wanted $19 each to give them shot of Ivermectin. This would be a 6 shot series of course. Ka-ching, ka-ching.

Of course I asked if this was the same Ivermectin as in horse wormer. He looked at me in horror and said "You can't give them a whole horse wormer. They would overdose!" I said, "No, but I am sure a small amount would work." And I was right. I fed them a little smidge on a tooth pick and the mange was gone in a week. I sure liked $1.99 versus $240 plus gas.

mswillie
Apr. 27, 2009, 01:54 PM
Because they have to pay for a package and the cost of putting it in that package.


I'll buy this to a point but if the cost is almost exactly the same then the only thing I'm paying for is packaging. I appreciate that a pharma company needs to make a profit. It just seems a little excessive for the vast difference in how much actual compound you get for your money.