Retraining the Western Pleasure Horse

[rizzodm]

I have just started riding a horse that was trained for western pleasure. When I ask her to do a circle she moves away from my leg instead of bending around my leg. While she is doing this she is not looking where she is going, we have gotten pretty close to rubbing the jumps in the arena. She is a sweet willing mare just a little confused right now with what I am asking. How can I help her to understand what I am asking?

Dawn

[angel]

What kind of bit are you using, and how are you using your reins when you are riding the circle?

[rizzodm]

D ring snaffle and I open my inside rein. Today when I rode I used a little pressure with my outside leg and this helped tremendously.

Dawn

[angel]

If this is a well trained western horse, then she will be more accustomed to bending from your outside rein aid. Instead of using a leading inside rein, keep your hands in a normal position, but slightly elevate your outside rein while using your inside leg. On the circle, you need to work inside leg to outside rein. This means that the outside rein must be effective, and that you should have less contact on the inside rein. On the straight line, you would be working more with that slight lift on the inside rein, and the greater use of your outside leg position. See how that works for you.

[Lambie Boat]

how long was she a western pleasure horse? you have your work cut out for you as the quality of western gaits are different that what dressage judges are looking for

[meupatdoes]

I have an ex-Western Pleasure horse that is currently in his third week of living at a dressage barn (I did hunters with him in the late fall when I got him, and then for all intents and purposes he had the winter off).

The biggest challenges for him have been to accept and seek a firmer contact, and that when asked for 'more' in the trot he quickly offers up the canter instead.

I have not tried to figure out his 'western pleasure' buttons, but have rather focused on saying, "These are the new buttons." So I treat him like any other green horse; when the button I'm looking for isn't there I gently go about installing it, rather than trying to change my aid to suit the horse's previous training.

I am trying to get a good video of him; tragically the tape ran out yesterday three minutes before the horse gave me the best canterwork he's ever done for me.

Enjoy your WP horse and don't let anyone talk down to him because of his heritage. My dressage trainer is a huge fan of my WP pleasure horse (and I have three horses, the other two are a TB and an Oldenburg) and loves to teach Jinxy lessons because he is so freakin' adorable and always tries tries tries.

[mvp]

One advantage of retraining a WP pleasure horse is that they typically know how to accept correction. They are used to being told what to do, and will generally try and try.

It's true that your mare has probably been taught to turn (but not bend) according to outside rein, perhaps outside leg. If so, you need to teach her that bending while turning is the New Correct. Assume she just doesn't know and would oblige if the understood what you wanted and was physically strong enough to do it.

WP horses are also typically taught to listen to rein and leg separately. So while keeping their body pretty straight, they will "side pass"-- a leg yield done directly sideways just off your leg alone. They will also do turns on the haunches (sort of, by dressage standards) primarily off your hand.

The good news in all this is that if you slow down, use leg and hand in different combinations at the walk, your mare will figure out what you want. If this horse were mine, I'd start with the reminder that she needs to move her hind end away from leg pressure. Then, in my snaffle and not worrying about the contact, I'd use a direct rein, perhaps raised up pretty high and ask her for a turn on the fore hand, with her nose bent in. One or two steps with her hind end, and we relax and walk straight.

If you see the logic of my idea, you can build to get any degree of bend from there with spirals on a circle, whatever. I'd worry about getting her to understand what you want her to do with her body and how she should listen to your hand and leg first. I'd worry about the quality of her bends and acceptance of contact later.

It will take her some time to get strong enough to do all this well. But if you can enjoy watching her learn, you will be able to continue to enjoy her. She can do it, and the horse who knows how to be trained is a joy to ride.

[ShotenStar]

One advantage of retraining a WP pleasure horse is that they typically know how to accept correction. They are used to being told what to do, and will generally try and try.

This is exactly the case with the little QH WP mare who is now my trail / dressage horse. Being a chestnut mare, it sometimes comes with a bit of 'tude, as in "You told me to trot. I am trotting! Why is your %^(*& leg still there ?!" The dressage concept of managing every stride really annoys her, but she will do whatever I ask, while making snarky mare faces ...

*star*

[Nojacketrequired]

how long was she a western pleasure horse? you have your work cut out for you as the quality of western gaits are different that what dressage judges are looking for

If she has a four beat walk, two beat trot and 3 beat canter, you'll be fine. The brilliance of the gaits may not be getting you extra marks, but you should still get good marks if your basic gaits are pure.

NJR

[Lambie Boat]

beg to differ. it's not simply a matter of semantics.

a jog is not a trot the judges want
a lope is not the canter a dressage judge wants to see

the loop in the reins is not the contact
the reinback is not the same
throughness over the back and forward is different
the frame, the energy, the spark?

I am not making judgement bad/good or whatever. but a judge will


I boarded at LAEC next to one of the premier western pleasure barns, and also at Huntington Beach- lots of western pleasure as well. It's just different, that's all.

and I must say that LOTS of classical dressage trainers teach the sidepass as well

[Nojacketrequired]

a jog is not a trot the judges want
a lope is not the canter a dressage judge wants to see


The gait score is based on the quality of the gaits, which in turn is based on the purity of the gaits. Gaits that are correct should get at least a 5 for Sufficient. Once the horse begins to understand that you want more forward and more expression then the marks will rise accordingly.

Techinically, a correct jog IS a trot and a correct lope IS a canter. Not perhaps a world-beater but no reason to make it seem like your horse is insufficient to go before dressage judges because they used to do WP.

NJR

[mvp]

And a big phat plug for WP horses with "cruise control." This post is speaking to Shotenstar's chestnut WP mare who is telling her rider how to ride.

I think the mare is right-- Once you have given an aid, and she has answered it, she has earned the right to be left alone until you want something else.

I agree with WP horses and the trainers who don't want to micromanage as so many dressage philosophers want. Yes, we can feel and perfect every stride, I suppose, but the best dressage horses understand that they should keep doing what we asked an respond to each new request, not quite requiring constant intervention.

So this redhead girl might give us all a riding lesson. Good for her!

OK, back to the topic at hand.

[TikiSoo]

Boy, do I appreciate this thread!
I am "retraining" my QH just in dressage disciplines, since that's what I know. I don't show, I ride for excersize and pleasure. We've been together 18 months, she's now 7, but I definitely treat her as a greenie as meupatdoes said in an earlier post.

The first time I asked for a small circle, she sidpassed! I can't help but laugh when she does stuff like this, it's teaching ME to think differently. Quite rewarding, actually.

I've helped her round out from trot to walk, but she's still excitable and learning balance when cantering. She's just mastered gently rolling into the canter instead of lurching into a forward charge, yay!

Can anyone help me with our problem of downward transitions? When I ask her to slow from a canter to a trot, she hits the breaks HARD, raising her head and lowering her butt end like a sliding stop. (at least that's how it feels) Her reactions to aids are quick & hair trigger. A WP thing?

She's in a snaffle with forks to help keep the rein pressure at a low angle. Riding in a western saddle for now, posting and looking ridiculous.:winkgrin:

[merrygoround]

The poster who commented that riding her as a green horse had a great thought.

You are essentially retraining her. Her gaits must be more forward,her stride longer. and more reaching. Rather than her head being in a position, she must be able to stretch, and move. She has to learn to understand a light, elastic but continuous contact with the hand. BTW many reining and WP horses are started in a snaffle. I've never had a problem switching them to one.


Using the outside leg on a circle has always been part of riding a correct circle. The outside leg, ensures that the hind quarters stay on the same track as the forehand. Without that it isn't a circle. ;)

[slc2]

"Techinically, a correct jog IS a trot and a correct lope IS a canter. "

Nope.

The western lope isn't a 3 beat canter, and the western jog isn't a two beat trot.

So no.

"Deserves to be left alone til you want something else"

Doesn't quite work out that way in dressage, since every stride is something you want....not that a good dressage rider is yankin' and spankin' every step. But it is not at all the same.

You're on a horse in both. That's about it.

Western pleasure and dressage have very very few similarities.

[angel]

That just shows how little you know about good western work.

Western wants the horse light. So do dressage riders. However, the dressage rider is not taught how to keep the horse light, or how to get the horse really quick off the aids. More is the pity as many dressage riders go around wondering why those reins do not feel like the silken thread concept into which they bought when they first started riding dressage. When you give an aid to the well trained western horse, you get immediate response. If you give that aid too heavily, you will get way more response than you bargained for. Dressage riders use aids like sledge hammers for the most part, in the mistaken idea that this is correct "contact." Bah!

[Lambie Boat]

previous poster does not understand dressage. The cowboys around here laugh at dressage riders too, saying they all hang on the horse's face and are afraid to go outside the arena

[farriergodmother]

Can anyone help me with our problem of downward transitions? When I ask her to slow from a canter to a trot, she hits the breaks HARD, raising her head and lowering her butt end like a sliding stop. (at least that's how it feels) Her reactions to aids are quick & hair trigger. A WP thing?

I have the same thing going on with my mare broke for roping. Only, if I drop the reins at all, She STOPS. So, I'm always riding her forward, especially through the down transitions. It's gotten better but that fast stop is her evasion tactic and she abuses it when she doesn't want to work. Sneaky little booger:lol:

[InWhyCee Redux]

"Techinically, a correct jog IS a trot and a correct lope IS a canter. "

Nope.

The western lope isn't a 3 beat canter, and the western jog isn't a two beat trot.

So no.



Sorry, nope — check page 141 of your AQHA show rules, if you have one. (If not, see below). A jog is a slow trot and a lope is a slow canter — or, at least, it is supposed to be.

".... The jog is a two-beat diagonal gait. The horse works from one pair of diagonals to the other pair.... Horses walking with their back feet and trotting in the front are not considered performing the required gait.... The lope is an easy, rhythmical three-beat gait.... Horses traveling at a four-beat gait are not considered to be performing at a proper lope."

[monstrpony]

...It's gotten better but that fast stop is her evasion tactic and she abuses it when she doesn't want to work. Sneaky little booger:lol:

Ahem ... it is never the horse's fault. Check your own body position/motion, and make sure you're not inadvertently asking for this. Just because you are not aware of what she might be interpreting as a cue from you doesn't mean the horse is wrong for obeying it.

[meupatdoes]

I'm so glad I am keeping all of my horses at a dressage barn now.

Then I too can do this extremely special discipline which is the only one in the world that knows what it's doing, and which is completely divorced and totally different from all of the other disciplines that attempt to walk trot and canter their horses around, because it is So Very Special, and No One Else Can Do It or Even Come Close.

[Nojacketrequired]

Before "the powers that be" begin making pronouncements about things they know nothing about, they ought to check their facts.

A trot and a jog are the same GAIT. A canter and lope are the same GAIT. If the GAIT is Pure IE: has the correct number of footfalls in the correct sequence, it should get a 5 at least, as "sufficient".

Telling someone that their WP horse isn't what the judge is looking for in dressage does nothing to help our sport or make it more open to new comers.

NJR

[mvp]

Sorry for the snark, and usually I agree with DQs' hard won philosophical expertise.

But it will be the dressage world's loss if it can't give props to well-trained western horses. Oh, wait a sec...who do the DQs' send their warmbloods to when they can't ride them?

Don't be dissing the best philosophy of the western world if sometimes you need it or (maybe in private) admire it.

[rizzodm]

Thanks everyone for your replies. She is such a sweet mare that does try and already is meeting me at the fence when I come out to ride. I don't know how long she has been going wp, I believe she became barn property when the owner stopped paying board. She has been just hanging out at the barn they pulled her out to sell her and discovered what a great little mare they had(they talked the buyers out of buying her:)). She will eventually be used as lesson hores but in the mean time I will be putting some time on her.

Dawn

[Go Fish]

Western horses are trained to move away from a leg NOW. Outside bend is utilized as a tool in the pleasure pen to slow the horse down on the rail without picking up the reins and to lift the shoulders to soften the horse. They can and do bend to the inside...think corner utilization and steering.

It's possible your horse has been trained for a spur stop...see above. I think you should start treating it like a forward issue and not a steering issue and go from there.

[IdDynamic]

Riding a well-broke western bridle horse is remarkably like riding an upper-level dressage. Like anything, there are different levels of quality and training in the western world. I had the pleasure of riding a multi-time world champion pleasure stallion several years ago. Imagine floating on a cloud that's completely responsive to your seat! Yes, it was a three-beat lope, and it was amazing! Almost as cool as the first time riding a piaffe! Basically, the horse is holding a school canter all the time, which takes incredible strength and balance. Top western pleasure horses spend most of their time in a canter half-pass or counter-canter. Maybe not the kind of hp or cc that would get 8s in a dressage test, but the best trainers don't get a lope by dinking with a horse's face all the time. There's a lot of ugly stuff that happens in western pleasure, but there's a lot of cool stuff too.

[TikiSoo]

Hey, thanks for all the help on retraining (I prefer "cross training") my western horse in dressage.
I really would have appreciated any advice on how to smooth hard downward transitions.
Rather than "take sides" and argue which discipline is better, I am of a mind that any excersize that helps the horse and rider work together in a controlled balanced way is beneficial.

[bdbeitel]

I am a "born and raised dressage" turned western pleasure person. To make your horses downward transititions smoother try using less rein pressure and a little spur pressure and sit really deep in the saddle. Think of leaving your hands steady and pushing him onto the bit to stop (you will not be pulling back on the reins. This tells the WP horse to bend (lift his back) at its belly and let the leg pressure out his jaw (hence the low headset). WP horses are taught to "lift" based on minimal spur pressure to their sides, this is why the riders appear effortless in their transitions in the WP ring. (Think using your spur (heel) in soft/small upward movements) this should cue your horse to lift his back and soften his jaw and slow down. When working with your horse think of very soft rein contact, WP horses are taught to mainly work off the leg with minimal rein contact. If you are in his mouth too much using a direct rein he will take this as a constant correction because contact means he is doing something wrong. If he is stopping too quick and "falling out" of the transition it means you are using too much hands and haven't told his hind end to stop moving.

[SkippinwithPippin]

I have an ex-Western Pleasure horse that is currently in his third week of living at a dressage barn (I did hunters with him in the late fall when I got him, and then for all intents and purposes he had the winter off).

The biggest challenges for him have been to accept and seek a firmer contact, and that when asked for 'more' in the trot he quickly offers up the canter instead.

I have not tried to figure out his 'western pleasure' buttons, but have rather focused on saying, "These are the new buttons." So I treat him like any other green horse; when the button I'm looking for isn't there I gently go about installing it, rather than trying to change my aid to suit the horse's previous training.

I am trying to get a good video of him; tragically the tape ran out yesterday three minutes before the horse gave me the best canterwork he's ever done for me.

Enjoy your WP horse and don't let anyone talk down to him because of his heritage. My dressage trainer is a huge fan of my WP pleasure horse (and I have three horses, the other two are a TB and an Oldenburg) and loves to teach Jinxy lessons because he is so freakin' adorable and always tries tries tries.

That was very well put. My horse was also a western pleasure boy, with a slo-mo jog and canter. However, I am trying to teach him dressage and a trainer we have occasional clinics with said he will definitely be a "fancy" dressage horse with consistent work. Three cheers for ex-WPs!! I want to do a lot of different events with him, including WP, but right now I'm focusing on strengthening, suppling, accepting contact, and really using his powerhouse caboose. This way, he'll be strong and balanced enough to do both dressage and WP without cantering around on his forehand! We have a lot of work ahead of us, but I wouldn't trade him for the world!

[SkippinwithPippin]

[QUOTE=bdbeitel;4054719]I am a "born and raised dressage" turned western pleasure person. To make your horses downward transititions smoother try using less rein pressure and a little spur pressure and sit really deep in the saddle. Think of leaving your hands steady and pushing him onto the bit to stop (you will not be pulling back on the reins. [QUOTE]

I agree with this approach. You want the horse to sit back on its haunches when doing a down transition, but still thinking "forward". Here's what I do (which is similar/same as above): Before asking for the down transition, I half halt, apply a little leg, sit deep (or stop following the motion), and if needed, close my hands A LITTLE. This way he doesn't fall on his face and lose the quality of his movement. Hope it helps!

[AmandaandTuff]

Depending on how the horse is trained you'll have your work cut out for you. I have a western pleasure/reining horse that I am using for an all around mount, she's very skilled at listening to my body and legs while the reins are practically dragging.

Figure out how this horse is already trained. Does it spur stop? I know that's popular for western horses, my mare does it. If you already know what the horse knows, apply them and try to change their meaning.

Would it be helpful to just take a nice relaxing hack instead of arena work? Alow of WP horses are burned out and a lot of good can come from a few relaxing rides on the trail, don't manage, just let them lengthen out and relax. I've turned a lot of peanut rollers into speed horses by transitioning during trail rides.

[Lambie Boat]

if you/your horse does a sliding stop at X during a dressage test, you will be marked down!

ask me how I know :o :winkgrin:

[rizzodm]

if you/your horse does a sliding stop at X during a dressage test, you will be marked down!

ask me how I know :o :winkgrin:

:lol:
Had a great ride last night. She is really smart and is such a pleasure to work with. She has picked up the pace of her trot and seems to like moving a little faster. While doing 20 meter circles to the right (she was fine going the other way) she kept wanting to switch from trot to lope in the same spot on the 20 meter. Any ideas? I also loved that when I asked her to canter she wouldn't even think of changing her gait unitl I asked her.

Dawn

[Movin Artfully]

if you/your horse does a sliding stop at X during a dressage test, you will be marked down!

ask me how I know :o :winkgrin:

:D Love it :)

[webmistress32]

Telling someone that their WP horse isn't what the judge is looking for in dressage does nothing to help our sport or make it more open to new comers.

no kidding!

thank you!

[tx3dayeventer]

Ahem ... it is never the horse's fault. Check your own body position/motion, and make sure you're not inadvertently asking for this. Just because you are not aware of what she might be interpreting as a cue from you doesn't mean the horse is wrong for obeying it.

That is how my reining/roping/cowhorse gelding is. You hunch your shoulders forward and he sticks his butt in the dirt.

He really gets irritated with me when I post the trot. He slams on breaks everytime he feels my weight shift. :lol: I always get dashboarded :lol:

[Woodland]

Inside leg at the girth outside leg behind the girth with more pressure from out than in! A WP horse would NEVER EVER move into leg!!! And asking to move around your leg is confusing her! Outside leg to inside rein!

[Lambie Boat]

Telling someone that their WP horse isn't what the judge is looking for in dressage does nothing to help our sport or make it more open to new comers.

NJR

look. showing is very expensive. very very expensive. I LOVE all horses, I think western horses are very well trained and people who ride western are a fun and friendly bunch. I'm sure USDF and all show organizers want everyone to bring their horses out to the dressage shows and spend their cash.

I was simply typing a fact. Even at the walk/trot tests in dressage, a western pleasure horse, doing WESTERN, would be costly and discouraging at best. Since the OP is having a blast and training at home, then no harm, no foul.

[baymare]

I can really identify with a lot of the challenges mentioned in this thread. My lovely paint gelding is still "in recovery" from being WP trained, and probably will be for the rest of his life.

Downward transitions are definitely tricky. He tended to shut down completely between gears, so the feeling was of hitting the brakes rather than a smooth downshift without loss of energy. Lots of canter/trot transitions helped with this, eventually he figured out that it was safe to keep going forward. Trot/walk is a lot harder, because he tends to insert a few steps of "jog" instead of making a clean transition to walk. One thing that has been really good for me as a rider is to figure out how better to use my seat and core for the downward transitions, since initially he did not speak "contact" at all.

It has also been difficult to get a good quality of contact. Initially he was really dead to the connection, just kind of hanging there at best and disappearing behind the bit at worst. With a lot of perseverance at just plain maintaining contact no matter where he went (and remembering to sit up as he wished to disappear in front of me!) and riding forward forward forward, he has gotten much better. A weensy bit of playing with flexion on big circles has also helped get a softer and more "alive" feeling at the end of the reins.

And the stiff body that goes sideways willingly, but like a two by four! More circles, spiralling in and out have helped. It took a long time, too, before I could use any kind of outside leg aid without getting a lope! Initially I encountered a lot of resentment to that outside leg. I don't blame the horse at all-- we just had our wires crossed.

I think our process of "installing the new buttons" has been truly difficult for both of us, and it has definitely been slow work. We have made a lot of progress, but the absolute hardest thing--and saddest, in my book-- is the work that has gone in to getting a lovely athletic horse with three excellent natural gaits and wonderful balance to feel that it is SAFE to go forward. His natural gaits had really been subverted-- conformation and stride make him actually better suited to lower level dressage and jumping than to western pleasure. It really took a toll on him mentally-- but I have faith that his own good nature will triumph and that me and Ol' paint will ride off into the sunset together someday at a lovely medium trot with a lively elastic rein contact!

[mvp]

The "going nowhere lope"-- Can you get up in a two-point, kick her up into a little hand gallop, pet her on the neck and say "I know you had no idea, but yes, this is what I wanted"?

I like the idea of trails, too. Since WP horses are typically willing to oblige (a useful part of their "traumatic training"), she may just need clarity from you as you introduce her to a new set of rules. I'd suggest that the more you can make her work look different from the work in the "pen" that made her think she had to go unnaturally slowly, the easier it will be for her to learn "different strokes for different folks."

On the "spur stop" point. It's an aid invented to produce what we all want-- a forward downward transition. Rather than complaining to people or to your mare that she won't let you ride a downward transition as you would a dressage horse, just ride her tactfully, with less leg and a very soft, supporting hand until she "makes the mistake" of not sliding to a stop and then praise that.

She sounds very nice--kind, interested, even intent on pleasing you! Don't let anyone tell you that a horse that has learned how to accept training can't be taught a wide range of aids and rules. Don't let anyone imply that so long as you don't want to show but will stick to your own backyard, things are fine. Retrain her and smoke 'em in the ring!

[saltheart]

"...and I must say that LOTS of classical dressage trainers teach the sidepass as well..."


??? And no one commented on that? Please do name names. I want to know what classical dressage trainers teach side pass. We teach the horse to move away from the lateral leg aids, yes. We start this exercise at the walk, yes. But is it "teaching sidepass"? NO. :no:

I sidepass is a western move. "classical dressage trainers" school half pass and full pass, not side pass. :rolleyes: