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View Full Version : USEF - is this really true?



Doubleeez
Apr. 25, 2009, 12:18 PM
In a recent conversation with a USEF Jumper judge, who was told that they had failed the jumper exam, I was appalled to learn that the USEF refused the judge's request for a copy of their corrected jumper test. The reason stated was, "Because the exam material was reviewed with you prior to the administration and the correct answers were reviewed with you following completion of the exam, the test writing committee did not want to send back graded copies of the exam".
Knowing how extremely expensive it is to attend these mandatory clinics, I would certainly think that the attendees would be entitled to a copy of their corrected test, particularly if they were notified that they had failed.
I think the "test writing committee" should be aware that from time immemorial, tests have always been returned to those being examined to use as a guide and for future reference.
How can one learn by their mistakes if they don't know what their mistakes were?
If this is a current USEF policy of the Continuing Education Committee, then it should be reviewed by the Executive Director and the CEO in the best interest of the Federation.

Twisting
Apr. 25, 2009, 01:11 PM
Actually I can completely understand thier reasoning for not wanting to return the graded test. It is quite common for tests to be controlled material. The graded copy would be an answer key that could be studied by another individual who wanted to take that same test. By controlling the graded copies of the test they limit test compromise and cheating. Making it more likely that the test results are an accurate reflection of the individual's knowledge.

feather river
Apr. 25, 2009, 01:23 PM
like everything the USEF has done since it came out from the dust of the clash of the titans, the AHSA and the USET, it has shown a strong need to control all content, decisions, opinion, thought, etc. of its members. If you think of it as Iraq under Saddam, you won't be as troubled by their position on test scores. if they want to fail a person because they don't want a particular individual to have a judges card, they can just tell you that you failed. no proof is necessary. it is the way they do everything else.

the only thing I can't figure out, is where you cut the head off?

grandprixjump
Apr. 25, 2009, 02:32 PM
The DMV doesn't pass out their tests either. But I would think maybe the USEF would issue a letter to the people stating the questions they missed pertained to SO AND SO rules, please study JP 102, 156, and 225 before retaking the test.

Doubleeez
Apr. 25, 2009, 03:43 PM
From what I understand the exam was "open book" so under these circumstances, I really can't buy Twisting's response.
And, to the best of my knowlege, the DMV doesn't give "open book" exams, so I have trouble accepting Grand Prix Jumper's response.
In the past, I myself had a jumper card, and always had my exams returned with a score.
I am now beginning to wonder about the recent Steward's test which was due back to USEF March 20th. It's now been over five weeks since then and there has been no word from the Federation on the results.

Molly99
Apr. 25, 2009, 05:28 PM
Well it is an open book test, which is gone over at the end of the test/clinic. Everyone is told that and everyone I know, writes down their answers prior to handing it.

That way you know when you got one wrong and can make note of the correct rule.

You are also told prior to the test that you will not get a copy back. Nothing sneaky about it.

Molly99
Apr. 25, 2009, 05:30 PM
Doubleez, they did return the tests when it was an open book and they rewrote the ENTIRE test each time.

They now reuse some of the questions. Hence the reason to not return the test.

its me
Apr. 27, 2009, 09:02 PM
As far back as I can remember during all of my school years, Kindergarten, Grade, High School & College followed by many years of teaching at NYU in both the Undergraduate & Master's Programs; exams were always returned to the students. It has always been a tool for teachers to help students in visually understanding where they erred.
It is a foolish and misquided policy to do otherwise.
To not tell the student what the question was that was wrong and what the correct answer should have been helps no one.
In all the years of teaching I have never found it necessary to use the same exam twice. My exams were always based on the subject matter which rarely changed; not unlike a Jumper Judge's test which has to change regualarly simply because the rules are always being changed. A question and answer used last year propably wouldn't hold true the following year.
The USEF has no concept of how a proper clinic should be organized therefore how could anyone expect that it would know how to proplerly test it's Judges.

Molly99
Apr. 27, 2009, 09:23 PM
As far back as I can remember during all of my school years, Kindergarten, Grade, High School & College followed by many years of teaching at NYU in both the Undergraduate & Master's Programs; exams were always returned to the students. It has always been a tool for teachers to help students in visually understanding where they erred.
It is a foolish and misquided policy to do otherwise.
To not tell the student what the question was that was wrong and what the correct answer should have been helps no one.
In all the years of teaching I have never found it necessary to use the same exam twice. My exams were always based on the subject matter which rarely changed; not unlike a Jumper Judge's test which has to change regualarly simply because the rules are always being changed. A question and answer used last year propably wouldn't hold true the following year.
The USEF has no concept of how a proper clinic should be organized therefore how could anyone expect that it would know how to proplerly test it's Judges.
I have to disagree. The jumper clinics are probably the best run of all the USEF clinics. Those judges send a lot of time organizing their presentations to share new rules, rule clarifications and to deal with questions from their fellow judges.

Since you ARE given the answers to the test at the clinic, there is no need for you to have a copy sent to you.

I also tend to think that the majority of the questions asked ARE relevant from year to year. The jumper rules do not change that frequently.

I never said they used the same exam, but they do reuse questions, which as a former teacher, I did quite often. There are good questions for material that are used time and time again.

Would I use the exact same test over and over, no, but there is nothing wrong with reusing good questions.

And I have no problem with not receiving a copy of the test back since they go over the answers at the clinic.

Portia
Apr. 28, 2009, 11:57 AM
On a very different level, bar examiners never provide corrected or graded copies of bar exams back to those who have taken them. This is primarily because they frequently reuse the questions and do not want to have to rewrite the entire exam every year. (Bar review courses and prep programs still manage to get old versions and approximations of the questions). You eventually get a copy of your score, and that's it.

Actually, now that I think about it, that's true throughout law school. Professors rarely if ever give you a corrected exam back, because they reuse them as well. You get a posted score and that's it. You can then go in and discuss the exam with the professor, usually, but that's about it.

Not to be disparaging, but how does one fail an open book exam? Especially for jumper judging, which ought to be pretty straightforward, at least compared to some of the other disciplines? And if it is open book, shouldn't you have a fairly good idea of what questions you were able to answer and those for which you were unable to find the answers?

RAyers
Apr. 28, 2009, 12:06 PM
To those who return tests, kudos. Obviously you have time to re-write exams every few weeks.

Ever since I found previous years' copies of some of my exams on the floor of the lecture hall, I NEVER return exams any more.

I feel an exam is a tool for the professor to judge how well they teach. Homework is the tool for the student to learn where they err. Thus, the students do not NEED to have an exam returned. I also noted that cheating has diminished quite a bit as well and the exams are giving me a better measure of how well I am conveying topic material.

I totally agree with the USEF. As stated, the bar association does not return tests as do most licensing boards. In this way, especially in open book tests, you reduce the amount of cheating and get a better reflection of material knowledge in licensing.

Reed

Hunter Mom
Apr. 28, 2009, 12:21 PM
I've taken and administered tests ranging from state assessments to ACT to the Jeopardy exam, and it is not a norm to get the graded test back on any kind of test along these lines. Test writing is a huge undertaking and they are usually very secure.

Ghazzu
Apr. 28, 2009, 01:39 PM
I can see logic on both sides.
I've taken exams that weren't returned, and exams that were.

I tend to return exams to my students, but have colleagues who do not.

One of my professors (principles of radiology) handed us a sheet at the beginning of his course.
Had about 100 questions on it.
He said, "These are my exam questions. If you can answer them, you know what you should know at the end of this course. I don't care if you come to class and learn the answers, hole up in the library, or stay in bed."

Not everyone passed the course...

DuffyAgain
Apr. 29, 2009, 08:40 AM
I can't remember how/why it came up just this past weekend, but I was telling a friend about my first EMT test. I was informed I had gotten one question wrong. I really wanted to KNOW what I'd gotten wrong and the test administrators wouldn't tell me, saying it was a test, not a class.

I was just concerned that I'd missed something critical and that I might deliver incorrect care or whatever to a human being because of it! (I thought it rather ridiculous that someone couldn't just tell me that. I didn't want the entire exam back - just wanted to know the one damn question I'd answered incorrectly. ;) )

So, instead, I went BACK through the entire textbook and reviewed yet again after the exam. :lol:

dogchushu
Apr. 29, 2009, 09:13 AM
DuffyAgain, I'm the same way. I guess I'm a nerd or something but I can't stand not knowing which questions I've missed and how/why I missed them.

When I took the CPA exam (back when the earth's crust was still cooling and you couldn't use calculators), I knew in advance that you wouldn't get your tests returned or know which questions you'd missed. Even so, it bugged me. I really wanted to know if I'd messed up a concept or just made a bonehead goof. I think it's valuable to know if you've got a fundamental misunderstanding of something important or if you simply flubbed reading comprehension, etc.

findeight
Apr. 29, 2009, 09:39 AM
So the incorrect answers were personally reviewed with the candidate/applicant for renewal at the time the test was graded and this is a problem because...

I don't get it.

Penthilisea
Apr. 29, 2009, 02:21 PM
You do not get a corrected copy back of the SAT's, GRE's, PRAXIS, or any other standardized ETS test I have ever taken. You rarely even find out exactly how many you got wrong!