Spinoff- EVA Positive and Stud Fees

[Amber_M]

Spin off from the Apiro Alternate thread! Just merely want everyone's opinion on this.

Here is a good page about EVA Protocol and the process of getting the vaccine- http://www.oasisranchinc.com/EVA.htm

My question is- Should an EVA positive stallion's fee reflect his status?

If you have an EVA+ stud, did you take that into consideration when pricing him?

[sixpoundfarm]

It seems to me that its a disease that is easily managed, and yes it may be inconvenient to a MO initially, but I don't think the stud fee should be affected at all. It doesnt represent the quality of the individual horse, its just a hiccup to deal with, and if you really like the stallion, you'll do what you need to do.
I'd like to vaccinate my mares just so they are covered. Just need to find a good time to get it done.

[grayfox]

No, the stud fee doesn't reflect the EVA status. The vaccine is about 15.00. That website seems to have a lot of hysteria and some misinformation in the copy. I would instead look to www.equine-reproduction.com or Iron Springs Farm. There is no risk to mare or the baby if you vaccinate.

[CathyKb]

No it should not reflect in the stud fee. The vaccine is not expensive at all and most breeders that use frozen semen from Germany should vaccinate their mares anyway. There have been several stallions in the past with frozen semen from Europe, that turn up EVA positive and their imported semen is positive after it was sold as EVA negative. It is not a big deal to vaccinate.

Also Redwine is stunning and his foals are too!!!!

[Amber_M]

Also Redwine is stunning and his foals are too!!!!


Redwine is only one + stud. This wasn't referencing him directly, but I was prompted to make this thread after reading the other one where he was referenced. I come from AQHA world where this has been an issue as well.

The vaccine is $15, but at my barn it costs $$$$ to have quarantine and private turnout.

Was just a question, b/c I can see where people would side with the OP (or the mares owner, or whatever) that its just a little more trouble than its worth.

[Kenike]

As a mare owner, I do not think it should reflect in the stud fee. It also would not deter me from using a particular stallion. It's an inexpensive vaccine that is wise to use, anyway, and it's not really any inconvenience. IMHO, if it's deemed a huge inconvenience to a mare owner, then maybe they shouldn't be breeding? Given all the things that can go wrong when breeding, this is nothing. No different than bringing a new horse into the barn (actually, MUCH easier).
Sorry if that's kind of snarky, but it's how I feel

Also, I do believe that a SO should make the fact their guy is EVA+ readily available. There are so many out there who don't because they believe it will hurt their bottom line, give them a bad reputation, or whatever. All that does is harm the MO. Hence why I believe it's a wise decision to just go ahead and do it.

I second that the initial link was full of hysteria. I believe the best people to talk to about it are Kathy at Equine-Repro.com, followed by Grayfox (who was so gracious and graceful in dealing with MO's after Redwine's positive status was discovered)

[Kenike]

The vaccine is $15, but at my barn it costs $$$$ to have quarantine and private turnout.


This situation is my exception....especially given the fees at SOME barns. I'm more referencing the private MO's and those who are in boarding situations that are more economically and boarder friendly

[sixpoundfarm]

Iron Spring Farm is a great resource as well, they even have a small section discussing EVA protocol on their Stallion DVD.

[TouchstoneAcres]

As a mare owner, I do not think it should reflect in the stud fee. It also would not deter me from using a particular stallion. It's an inexpensive vaccine that is wise to use, anyway, and it's not really any inconvenience. IMHO, if it's deemed a huge inconvenience to a mare owner, then maybe they shouldn't be breeding? Given all the things that can go wrong when breeding, this is nothing. No different than bringing a new horse into the barn (actually, MUCH easier).
Sorry if that's kind of snarky, but it's how I feel

Also, I do believe that a SO should make the fact their guy is EVA+ readily available. There are so many out there who don't because they believe it will hurt their bottom line, give them a bad reputation, or whatever. All that does is harm the MO. Hence why I believe it's a wise decision to just go ahead and do it.

I second that the initial link was full of hysteria. I believe the best people to talk to about it are Kathy at Equine-Repro.com, followed by Grayfox (who was so gracious and graceful in dealing with MO's after Redwine's positive status was discovered)

Wow I really disagree with a few points made here. It is a big inconvenience to isolate horses getting the vaccine. It must be disclosed that a stallion is positive. Not to do so is highly unethical. A bad rep doesn't hurt the MO--that's patently ridiculous. There are plenty of negative stallions out there and if it is a significant issue for the MO they should be able to find another stallion easily. If they want to vaccinate because they love the stallion in question, fine. But that is the MO's decision not the SO's. I seriously disagree with the suggestion that a MO shouldn't be breeding if they can't deal with EVA vaccinations. If anyone shouldn't breed it would be the positive stallion, not the MO.
Whether the stud fee should reflect it or not--that isn't important. The market will decide whether a stud fee is worth it.

[YankeeLawyer]

I am considering breeding to Florencio and he is EVA positive, but I do think the EVA protocol is a PITA.
Also, is this statement (from the article linked above) correct:

"The vaccinated horse cannot give EVA to another horse but can pass on the modified live virus to its neighbors and they will test positive."

[Home Again Farm]

When I bred with frozen semen for the first time in 2000, my repro vet encouraged me to vaccinate my mares. I followed her advice and did all my mares, as well as all the fillies I had at that time. IMO, if you use semen from Europe, it is a good practice to vaccinate. The quarantine is not a big deal and having the mares protected is a plus.

[Kenike]

Wow I really disagree with a few points made here. It is a big inconvenience to isolate horses getting the vaccine. It must be disclosed that a stallion is positive. Not to do so is highly unethical. A bad rep doesn't hurt the MO--that's patently ridiculous. There are plenty of negative stallions out there and if it is a significant issue for the MO they should be able to find another stallion easily. If they want to vaccinate because they love the stallion in question, fine. But that is the MO's decision not the SO's. I seriously disagree with the suggestion that a MO shouldn't be breeding if they can't deal with EVA vaccinations. If anyone shouldn't breed it would be the positive stallion, not the MO.
Whether the stud fee should reflect it or not--that isn't important. The market will decide whether a stud fee is worth it.


There are plenty of stallions from Europe who don't have the status disclosed, which is why it's recommended to vaccinate here if you're using imported semen. There are tons of stock breed stallions that aren't disclosed. I've run into a few who know but won't disclose because they don't want a bad reputation. Granted, these are not the most wise, kind, or ethical of horse people to begin with, but it IS out there. And there are enough unethical and/or ignorant breeders that it becomes an issue.

What I meant by it hurting the MO is that the money is spent, the mare is bred, and then they lose the foal. It hurts them financially and emotionally when the positive status is not disclosed. I've had my mare vaccinated, and it wasn't that big of an inconvenience. I ended up not breeding her to the EVA+ stallion, though...he ended up dying from colic 3 days before I was scheduled to drop her off.

Yes, there are enough stallions out there to keep away from vaccinating and dealing with a pretty minor inconvenience. That's fine. But there are a couple of stallions out there that can, and do cross beautifully with a whole bunch of mares. If a MO truly wants to do the breeding thing, then the MO should be prepared. If they're not prepared to deal with something like this, then I don't know that they're prepared to deal with other things that can easily come up.

I'm sorry, but I've seen enough irresponsible breeding (in my own close circle, even) that I've become quite embittered about issues that are seemingly simple to deal with. I'm not trying to offend, just sharing how I feel. I know you're quite adept at the job, and I respect you. It's just one of those things that we'll have to agree to disagree on...on a very personal basis, of course :)

[grayfox]

I am considering breeding to Florencio and he is EVA positive, but I do think the EVA protocol is a PITA.
Also, is this statement (from the article linked above) correct:

"The vaccinated horse cannot give EVA to another horse but can pass on the modified live virus to its neighbors and they will test positive."

Yes, they would have titer positive meaning they would have an immunity to EVA and couldn't contract it. Basically that horse was also given a vaccine. By testing positive it doesn't mean they have EVA it just means they have an immunity to EVA. No one has ever seen this but it's a slim possiblity.

I think people are a little confused about EVA, the most common way it's transmitted is respiratory. Everyone has to make there own decision but if you show I think it should be part of your yearly shots and that includes geldings to prevent them from contracting it at a show. After the first year it's not necessary to quarantine.

Touchstone I think what Kenike was saying is that there are people that don't disclose their stallion's status. It could be innocently not testing or something more. She was just attempting to prevent what could be a disaster for a mare owner who brought it in unknownly. If you vaccinate it will never affect you. Considering that some of the top warmblood stallions in the world are positive it wouldn't make sense to not breed those stallions. It's not inherited, it's just a virus.

Of course, everyone has to do what they think is right. In certain states the education on a state level with vets is very good and vets are telling all their clients to vaccinate all mares before breeding to any stallion.

[Equine Reproduction]

... is this statement (from the article linked above) correct:

"The vaccinated horse cannot give EVA to another horse but can pass on the modified live virus to its neighbors and they will test positive."

There have been no cases of EVA being passed from a vaccinated horse to another as a result of the vaccination. A horse just vaccinated can however (although not commonly) pass the vaccine virus on to a non-vaccinated horse. This does not cause the second horse to get EVA, but - in essence - it vaccinates the second horse. A vaccinated horse will test positive for antibodies against the EAV (the virus is "EAV", the disease is "EVA"), which is what they mean in the quotation from the article.

Remember to review our article about EVA (http://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/EVA.shtmlhttp://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/EVA.shtml) (follow that link) for more information - it is somewhat more detailed than the article cited by the OP. We also have a presentation and an FAQ on EVA on our articles page (http://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/EVA.shtmlhttp://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/).

Yes, they would have titer positive meaning they would have an immunity to EVA and couldn't contract it.

Not necessarily - while they would show an antibody titer level, the ability to have full immunity would depend upon what that titer level was. It may not be high enough to provide adequate immunity.

Hope this helps.

[Kenike]

Touchstone I think what Kenike was saying is that there are people that don't disclose their stallion's status. It could be innocently not testing or something more. She was just attempting to prevent what could be a disaster for a mare owner who brought it in unknownly. If you vaccinate it will never affect you. Considering that some of the top warmblood stallions in the world are positive it wouldn't make sense to not breed those stallions. It's not inherited, it's just a virus.


Thank you, GF. That's exactly what I meant. I'm not always very good with wording things. :)

[YankeeLawyer]

There have been no cases of EVA being passed from a vaccinated horse to another as a result of the vaccination. A horse just vaccinated can however (although not commonly) pass the vaccine virus on to a non-vaccinated horse. This does not cause the second horse to get EVA, but - in essence - it vaccinates the second horse. A vaccinated horse will test positive for antibodies against the EAV (the virus is "EAV", the disease is "EVA"), which is what they mean in the quotation from the article.

Remember to review our article about EVA (http://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/EVA.shtmlhttp://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/EVA.shtml) (follow that link) for more information - it is somewhat more detailed than the article cited by the OP. We also have a presentation and an FAQ on EVA on our articles page (http://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/EVA.shtmlhttp://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/).

Hope this helps.

Thanks. The reason I posed the question is that the above issue (vaccinated horse essentially vaccinating its neighbor but consequently making the neighbor test "positive") is one to be aware of if one plans to vaccinate their mares in a boarding situation, for example (or in any case where the mare being vaccinated might accidentally come into contact with other people's horses). Presumably, if that were to happen, the accidentally vaccinated horse would not have a negative EVA test on record to show the positive is a result of vaccination (because the exposure was inadvertent), and I *think* on the off chance that horse were ever to be exported, it could cause problems (at least, I think that is in part why mareowners go to the trouble of getting a negative test result to have on hand prior to vaccinating - I was told to get negative reports for mine, as we do ship horses back and forth to Germany).

FWIW, I have a Florencio filly that may be one of the best I have ever owned, and I am really thankful her breeder was familiar with the EVA protocol so that she could produce this kid! Now I want another one!

[Sakura Hill Farm]

YL--Thank you for that information about getting the negative test result prior to vaccinating. No one suggested that, although we were told by both local and U of Fl vets that we would be unable to ship horses back to Europe once they had been vaccinated. Accordingly, we only vaccinated our hunter-producing mares as there is an outside chance that the jumper-producing mares might be shipped back to Europe since our daughter is going to spend a year training with Tim Stockdale in the UK.

We appreciate that tip.

[Equine Reproduction]

...the accidentally vaccinated horse would not have a negative EVA test on record to show the positive is a result of vaccination (because the exposure was inadvertent), and I *think* on the off chance that horse were ever to be exported, it could cause problems

It would only be a significant problem in the case of a male entire (colt/stallion). It would then be necessary to have a virus isolation test performed on the semen. In the case of a mare, a second test may be required 3 weeks after the first - remember that mares and geldings don't harbour the virus and can only be infectious during the acute stages of the disease.

we were told by both local and U of Fl vets that we would be unable to ship horses back to Europe once they had been vaccinated

Evidently they had not read the regulations, as they are wrong! :)

Hope this helps.

[Home Again Farm]

YL--Thank you for that information about getting the negative test result prior to vaccinating. No one suggested that, although we were told by both local and U of Fl vets that we would be unable to ship horses back to Europe once they had been vaccinated.

That is not correct. I sold a vaccinated mare in 2002. She was exported to Finland, travelling through Germany and Holland. The owner was never asked for the documentation that I had provided her of her negative status prior to vaccination. The mare was not tested for EVA. Later, she came back to the states — and again was not tested or asked for EVA documentation of any kind.

[Sakura Hill Farm]

We will have to reorganize for another vaccination stint then because it is actually the jumper-producing mares who are most likely to be bred with imported European semen. Drat!

[talloaks]

Back to the original post, I think the stud fees of EVA positive stallions should be less than stallions that are not EVA positive. There is more work and expense involved for the mare owners with the positive stallions so I think it should be reflected in their stud fees.

[YankeeLawyer]

That is not correct. I sold a vaccinated mare in 2002. She was exported to Finland, travelling through Germany and Holland. The owner was never asked for the documentation that I had provided her of her negative status prior to vaccination. The mare was not tested for EVA. Later, she came back to the states — and again was not tested or asked for EVA documentation of any kind.

But might she have been asked for the documentation? In other words, is it any way required, or would positive status be grounds for denying entry into a country? I am just wondering if what you are describing is the lack of a regulation or rather, a failure to enforce an existing regulation.

Even if such documentation is not required at all under present rules, I would prefer to take the extra step of testing prior to vaccinating and filing away the paperwork in the event the regulation ever changes.

[grayfox]

But might she have been asked for the documentation? In other words, is it any way required, or would positive status be grounds for denying entry into a country? I am just wondering if what you are describing is the lack of a regulation or rather, a failure to enforce an existing regulation.

Even if such documentation is not required at all under present rules, I would prefer to take the extra step of testing prior to vaccinating and filing away the paperwork in the event the regulation ever changes.


It doesn't make sense to ask for mares or gelding to be negative because being positive doesn't mean they have EVA just that they have an immunity. Mares and gelding can't be carriers what difference does it make if they titer positive. I'm sure Home Again and Equine Reproduction are correct because it makes sense. I don't think that going the extra step of testing is wrong, I just don't think it will ever become necessary.

[Home Again Farm]

Even if such documentation is not required at all under present rules, I would prefer to take the extra step of testing prior to vaccinating and filing away the paperwork in the event the regulation ever changes.

I agree. That is why I always test mine prior to vaccination and retain documentation of the initial negative test and later of any vaccination or later boosters.

However, at no point in a very long trip from LA to Finland and later back to NY was documentation asked for, and no test for EVA was ever done. When I imorted a mare a few years ago, she was tested for CEM, but not for EVA. I do not think that testing for EVA is standard when importing or exporting. One more reason to do the vaccine, IMO

[Equine Reproduction]

I do not think that testing for EVA is standard when importing or exporting. One more reason to do the vaccine, IMO

There is no testing for EVA at the time of importation to the USA. In fact, the USA is the only major racing country in the world to have no EVA import restrictions, and no national internal protocols in place in the event of an outbreak.

As far as exporting is concerned, almost all countries require EVA testing. In the case of stallions, if they test positive for antibody presence on a blood test, then most countries require a virus isolation test of the semen with negative results. In the event of a negative semen result, exportation goes ahead. There are a handful of countries - four I think - that will not accept a stallion that tests positive on a blood test. They are not major horse-trading partners, and although I am not sure of them all, I know China and Uruguay are two.

In the case of mares and geldings, if they test positive on a blood test, then they are typically required to be tested again 3 weeks later. As neither mares nor geldings are able to perpetually harbour and transmit the virus, they are only going to be infectious if in the acute stages of the disease, and that infectious stage will last 3 weeks. Hence the retesting.

Anyone who wishes to review import regulations to any other country in more detail can gain access to the requisite regulations for many countries on the USDA site (http://www.aphis.usda.gov/regulations/vs/iregs/animals/http://www.aphis.usda.gov/regulations/vs/iregs/animals/) (follow that link to go to the country index page).

Hope this helps.

[YankeeLawyer]

There is no testing for EVA at the time of importation to the USA. In fact, the USA is the only major racing country in the world to have no EVA import restrictions, and no national internal protocols in place in the event of an outbreak.

As far as exporting is concerned, almost all countries require EVA testing. In the case of stallions, if they test positive for antibody presence on a blood test, then most countries require a virus isolation test of the semen with negative results. In the event of a negative semen result, exportation goes ahead. There are a handful of countries - four I think - that will not accept a stallion that tests positive on a blood test. They are not major horse-trading partners, and although I am not sure of them all, I know China and Uruguay are two.

In the case of mares and geldings, if they test positive on a blood test, then they are typically required to be tested again 3 weeks later. As neither mares nor geldings are able to perpetually harbour and transmit the virus, they are only going to be infectious if in the acute stages of the disease, and that infectious stage will last 3 weeks. Hence the retesting.

Anyone who wishes to review import regulations to any other country in more detail can gain access to the requisite regulations for many countries on the USDA site (http://www.aphis.usda.gov/regulations/vs/iregs/animals/http://www.aphis.usda.gov/regulations/vs/iregs/animals/) (follow that link to go to the country index page).

Hope this helps.

Thanks Kathy! I really want to breed my Hohenstein mare to Florencio next year, so all of your insights are much appreciated : )

[Mardi]

Wow I really disagree with a few points made here. It is a big inconvenience to isolate horses getting the vaccine. It must be disclosed that a stallion is positive. Not to do so is highly unethical. A bad rep doesn't hurt the MO--that's patently ridiculous. There are plenty of negative stallions out there and if it is a significant issue for the MO they should be able to find another stallion easily. If they want to vaccinate because they love the stallion in question, fine. But that is the MO's decision not the SO's. I seriously disagree with the suggestion that a MO shouldn't be breeding if they can't deal with EVA vaccinations. If anyone shouldn't breed it would be the positive stallion, not the MO.
Whether the stud fee should reflect it or not--that isn't important. The market will decide whether a stud fee is worth it.

Well said. (applause)

[Charmb]

We live in Saskatchewan, Canada. We have an EVA vaccinated stallion. (after being tested to ensure he did not have EVA). However, the last time I sought vaccine, I found that through the WCVM (Western College of Veterinary Medicine) that I would have to have them order a full box of vaccine to do his annual vaccination! this was more than disconcerting, to find that a Vet College did not have the vaccine on hand, and that obviously, no one here is vaccinating for EVA! It was not cheap to buy a an entire box either! As to vaccinating our mares, we choose not to, as our stallions are negative. It is not unrealistic, in our area, to be able to quarantine and do this for mares. However, it isn't even on the recommended list of our College. So, one does wonder about the credibility of Vet Colleges when they do not even consider EVA a risk? or something one should test and vaccinate for. And where does that leave us? Well, I think it leaves us as a responsible stallion owner. I bring in the vaccine from outside our province for our stallion.