Apiro was our first choice... alternates?

[nyc tack girl]

So, we chose Apiro for our mare, but he has a hock injury and may or may not be cleared for collection soon.

However, we don't know where the mare is in her cycle, and the vet wants to start trying for insemination ASAP. We're testing her next week.

We love love love Apiro, but we can't do frozen. So, to be safe, we're starting to look at new studs.

Criteria-

1- Not chestnut (mare is chestnut, thats bad enough! :D )
2- On the taller side (over 16.1)
3- CHROME! Mare doesn't have much white
4- Hunter movement/jump or known to throw it
5- Fresh cooled option

The mare is in CT, and we'd prefer to use a stallion on the East Coast, but will consider all locations.

Thanks for your help guys!

[risingstarfarm]

How about Romantic Star?

[sixpoundfarm]

Do you have photos of the mare? What is her pedigree? Where would you say she is needing improvement?
What are her bloodlines?

[SteeleRdr]

1- Not chestnut (mare is chestnut, thats bad enough! :D )


A lot of stallions that are not chestnut, still have a chance to throw chestnut babies.

Our chestnut mare was bread to a black (not homozygous) stallion last year, and we got a chestnut filly.

Anyways, here are my suggestions -

Argosy (in VA)
Romantic Star (in VA)
Cunningham
Rubignon

[alliekat]

Escapade

[avadog]

I love Romantic Star and Cunningham. Here are some pictures of Romantic Star that were just posted on Peggy Smith's site.
http://www.peggyjsmith.com/041909x-01/slides/041809SPx1036.html

[Iron Horse Farm]

Our chestnut mare was bread to a black

White, wheat or rye? :D:D:D

Sorry, I just had to go there.

Cabardino
Landwerder :yes::yes::yes:

[selah]

White, wheat or rye? :D:D:D

Sorry, I just had to go there.

Cabardino
Landwerder :yes::yes::yes:


Rye....Pumpernickel (it's black:winkgrin:)

[VirginiaBred]

Just The Best.

www.tishquirk.com

[ASBJumper]

Balta'Czar for the chrome, guaranteed bay or black, hunter movement and jump, AND a fabulous, quiet temperament. He's pricier than some of the others mentioned here, but ask about the possibility of a discount if you have a mare that's premium or who has a show record. :)

http://www.jumpstartfarm.com/Default.asp?Page=111

[showjumpers66]

Apiro goes for his follow-up x-rays next week, so fingers crossed, we will have good news and an all clear to start collecting him again.

[sniplover]

Barb, what happened to your lovely boy? He's had a rough time these last 18 months. I will jingle for clear x-rays!!

[Ducky314]

Just The Best.

www.tishquirk.com

I 2nd that!! I have an East Coast mare as well (bred in CT) and had a fantastic experience working w/ Tish last year. My mare is due any day now and I just can't wait!

[SteeleRdr]

White, wheat or rye? :D:D:D

Sorry, I just had to go there.

Cabardino
Landwerder :yes::yes::yes:

Sorry for not using spell check! Guess you've never made a typo.

BRED it is.

[showjumpers66]

Just plumb bad luck. He had a minor injury last March, but then had such an crazy busy breeding season that we decided to leave him home. We planned to hit 2009 hard. He showed with Summer in his first show back in December and did great. We were heading to Gulfport for the winter circuit, but he hurt his hock in January (stress fracture to the top of his tarsus). We think it was an injury on the breeding mount. X-rays in March showed that it was healing well and they think he will make a full recovery, but we can not risk further injury to it until it is fully healed. Hopefully, it will be good news next week.

[WWEB]

Coronado WW -- is just 16h himself but produces bigger. Throws good amount of chrome :)

Noble Houston - his babies are nothing but hunters !

[sniplover]

I will keep you and Apiro in my thoughts.

[JB]

Sorry for not using spell check! Guess you've never made a typo.

BRED it is.

Oh lighten up :D It was clearly just having fun just because the opportunity was there ;)

[nyc tack girl]

Just plumb bad luck. He had a minor injury last March, but then had such an crazy busy breeding season that we decided to leave him home. We planned to hit 2009 hard. He showed with Summer in his first show back in December and did great. We were heading to Gulfport for the winter circuit, but he hurt his hock in January (stress fracture to the top of his tarsus). We think it was an injury on the breeding mount. X-rays in March showed that it was healing well and they think he will make a full recovery, but we can not risk further injury to it until it is fully healed. Hopefully, it will be good news next week.

We are crossing our fingers EXTRA hard in NYC :) Four sets even, I've transferred foal fever over to my non-horsey roommate!

[nyc tack girl]

Thanks for the advice everyone! I've submitted all "alternates" to my trainer and mom (aka decision maker and financier!)

For anyone interested, this is the mare- http://www.pedigreequery.com/island+corsage

She has a gorgeous bay Rheinlander filly out of Gluckspiel, so I know she can throw a pretty foal! Now I just need some more white! (Filly is so pretty and coppery, but just a plain bay, no markings)

[monami]

I LOVE Aprio but I would second Romantic Star as your back up.

I spent time with him at his first show and he is as QUIET as they come. One of my BFF's is the Barn Manager at Chad Keenums and she takes him herself to go for collections and says that he is the perfect gentleman in his stall, on the road and under saddle. He also has produced several approved sons.

He will be showing at Lexington next week if you want to see him in person.

[EquineLVR]

How about Red Wine? What I have seen he is throwing some really spectacular foals. Although you would have a chance to get a chesnut.

I really like Cunningham.. you would not get a chesnut with him.

[DMK]

what a lovely pedigree, I don't think you can do much nicer in "hunter type" than For the Moment (I used to call him the "Cover Boy" of FL TB stallions in his heyday) - he's from a long line of horses with exactly that type so it seems to be fairly prepotent trait. And since I have a nice young horse out of a Cox's Ridge daughter, of course that line is awesome too. ;)

(actually he has some similar lines, including that FTM line, in a slightly different order)

[Aubreyyy]

How about Red Wine? What I have seen he is throwing some really spectacular foals. Although you would have a chance to get a chesnut.


We love him, but not his EVA status.

[Paris]

I have a two year old out of a TB mare, and he's got 4 whites, strip, lots of bling. He is chestnut, but really nice. Really pretty canter, good jump, and great disposition. He also added size and bone to the mare.

take a look at www.triadfarm.com

[Fred]

Apiro goes for his follow-up x-rays next week, so fingers crossed, we will have good news and an all clear to start collecting him again.

I'm really sorry to hear about Apiro's injury, and am sending you jingles and all best wishes for a speedy and complete recovery, and a return to the breeding shed for this lovely horse.

[Blacktree]

Just plumb bad luck. He had a minor injury last March, but then had such an crazy busy breeding season that we decided to leave him home. We planned to hit 2009 hard. He showed with Summer in his first show back in December and did great. We were heading to Gulfport for the winter circuit, but he hurt his hock in January (stress fracture to the top of his tarsus). We think it was an injury on the breeding mount. X-rays in March showed that it was healing well and they think he will make a full recovery, but we can not risk further injury to it until it is fully healed. Hopefully, it will be good news next week.

I'm sorry to hear this, fingers crossed that Apiro gets some good news w/ those x-rays. He is a beautiful boy!

OP- what about Aloha?

[Pinto WB]

Apiro also produces chestnuts, I believe

[goodmorning]

Balou de Rouet is an option if you don't mind frozen, however, his son Banderas in the US might be worth looking into. For Play is nice as well, but he's a chestnut...

[nsm]

You might look at Ironman, he throws height, has the sabino gene, throws alot of greys though, and very good movers. The jumping is also a given along with very ami-friendly temperaments.

Nm

[STF]

Dont forget about the newly importd Banderas.
He is at Dreamscape Farm.

[Equine Reproduction]

We love him, but not his EVA status.

It's easily managed if you vaccinate your mare. It certainly is not a reason to eliminate him from your roster. It's a little inconvenient, but definitely not difficult to manage.

[goodmorning]

It's easily managed if you vaccinate your mare. It certainly is not a reason to eliminate him from your roster.

But, if you are in any type of boarding situation or operation other than a breeding farm, it is not easy.

[Equine Reproduction]

But, if you are in any type of boarding situation or operation other than a breeding farm, it is not easy.

It's probably more easily managed in a boarding situation. At a breeding farm, one has to be conscious of pregnant mares and breeding stallions. There are just so many misconceptions and misunderstandings about the vaccination and quarantine process. We find the confusion and misunderstanding of horse owners to be the most difficult part as people worry about inadvertent exposure without truly understanding the transmission process. Vaccinate, vaccinate, vaccinate...especially as there are a number of stallions out there that breeders are not even aware are actually positive for the disease. Heck the problem with it in the QH industry a couple years ago is a prime example of what can happen :(

We run a breeding facility where we have lots of animals coming and going and while it is certainly inconvenient at times, it is not difficult. Talk with the farm manager. It requires nothing more than separating the mare from physical contact with other horses - not total isolation and bio hazard security measures as some people believe.

[goodmorning]

It's probably more easily managed in a boarding situation.

Talk with the farm manager. It requires nothing more than separating the mare from physical contact with other horses - not total isolation and bio hazard security measures as some people believe.

The farm managers are not usually where the problem lies. Many people with mares at a busy show barn can not be bothered with another vaccination, and reading up on EVA, to warrant one horse in the barn being vaccinated. Just not worth the stress. And there is not a single vet in the area that would vaccinate one mare, without the written consent from the other mare owner's (I appreciate this as a MO). And isolating one mare in a group of 30 horses is not easy when there is one barn (all horses must come in at night). I suppose if it were a farm of gelding it wouldn't make a difference, but good luck getting a vet who is going to expose other mare's to a newly vaccinated mare. Particularly when there are other mares who are foaling out and due to be bred...It shouldn't be a huge issue, but in reality, it is not easy and is stressful for every mare owner, the BO, and the vets involved.

Not trying to start an argument, I know that in theory EVA shouldn't be a hard thing to vaccinate for -- the separation really isn't too difficult, but at a bust show/training barn that happens to have a few broodmares, it really is not feasible.

[Iron Horse Farm]

It requires nothing more than separating the mare from physical contact with other horses - not total isolation and bio hazard security measures as some people believe.

How long do they have to be separated after being vaccinated, Kathy?

We bred o an EVA pos stallion a decade ago and vaccinated, but she was our only mare at the time, so I was really unaware of any procedures.

[nyc tack girl]

It's easily managed if you vaccinate your mare. It certainly is not a reason to eliminate him from your roster. It's a little inconvenient, but definitely not difficult to manage.

First and foremost-I don't own the mare, so its not my call. The owner doesn't want to deal with all of that.... she has a small facility with a couple of horses, and keeping them seperate just wouldn't be worth the hassle. I'm not sure she even has more than one turnout area, and fencing it off would be $$$.

I'm curious to know how expensive the vaccine is. Paying for quarantine at a boarding barn isn't cheap either. For how many studs there are out there... we like him, but at this point, the trouble isn't worth it.

[pegasus44]

There are over 290 stallions at half-price at http://www.shnpayback.com

Several are recommended in this thread :-)

[sixpoundfarm]

There are over 290 stallions at half-price at
Several are recommended in this thread :-)

Several? There are two that I found that are not yet sold. One of which is for arabian mares only, so really, there is one.

[pegasus44]

Off the top of my head, Escapade II, Aloha & Coronado WW are not sold or limited to Arab mares.......there may be more.

[westwind]

I would like suggest Saxony Farm's Elite Hanoverian stallion Donnersohn. He is currently located in Brimfield Mass, just over the Conneticut Border. This guy is a lovely, correct, large framed Bay stallion who has sired some impressive youngsters. As one example, check out Diceman at Flying Lion Farm. I have handled him in person, (he stayed at my place for a short time a few years back). He is quite the clear minded gentleman with a 24 carat gold disposition. He throws lots of chrome. He is fertile and his owner is great to deal with. He has been bred to a wide variety of mares. Many mare owners have been so happy with their first foals from him, they have requested repeat breedings. I would encourage you to see him in person.

[grayfox]

The farm managers are not usually where the problem lies. Many people with mares at a busy show barn can not be bothered with another vaccination, and reading up on EVA, to warrant one horse in the barn being vaccinated. Just not worth the stress. And there is not a single vet in the area that would vaccinate one mare, without the written consent from the other mare owner's (I appreciate this as a MO). And isolating one mare in a group of 30 horses is not easy when there is one barn (all horses must come in at night). I suppose if it were a farm of gelding it wouldn't make a difference, but good luck getting a vet who is going to expose other mare's to a newly vaccinated mare. Particularly when there are other mares who are foaling out and due to be bred...It shouldn't be a huge issue, but in reality, it is not easy and is stressful for every mare owner, the BO, and the vets involved.

Not trying to start an argument, I know that in theory EVA shouldn't be a hard thing to vaccinate for -- the separation really isn't too difficult, but at a bust show/training barn that happens to have a few broodmares, it really is not feasible.


Sorry for any spelling errors, I'm watching Federalist show and it is hard to type on your phone.

It is always good to start a dialogue about EVA, but I think the easiest place to vaccinate is in a training barn. When you vaccinate the mare, you are not giving the mare EVA anymore than you are giving your kid measles when you vaccinate them for measles. After the vaccinations the mare needs to be kept a barn aisle away, they just can't touch noses with any other horse. NO ONE has ever seen the vaccine jump and if it did it wouldn't give the horse EVA, it would just vaccinate them. If it were that easy, barns would only have to buy 1 vaccine to vaccinate the whole barn. There is no need for special precautions of bleach or any other disinfectent. The mare can still be ridden with other horses, they just shouldn't touch noses. Also, if the vet felt the need to contact all the mare owners in the barn, it shows he doesn't really have an understanding of EVA or the EVA vaccine. I think it is important for mare owners to stay educated so they can help their vets stay current with the latest research.

[Aubreyyy]

Sorry for any spelling errors, I'm watching Federalist show and it is hard to type on your phone.

It is always good to start a dialogue about EVA, but I think the easiest place to vaccinate is in a training barn. When you vaccinate the mare, you are not giving the mare EVA anymore than you are giving your kid measles when you vaccinate them for measles. After the vaccinations the mare needs to be kept a barn aisle away, they just can't touch noses with any other horse. NO ONE has ever seen the vaccine jump and if it did it wouldn't give the horse EVA, it would just vaccinate them. If it were that easy, barns would only have to buy 1 vaccine to vaccinate the whole barn. There is no need for special precautions of bleach or any other disinfectent. The mare can still be ridden with other horses, they just shouldn't touch noses. Also, if the vet felt the need to contact all the mare owners in the barn, it shows he doesn't really have an understanding of EVA or the EVA vaccine. I think it is important for mare owners to stay educated so they can help their vets stay current with the latest research.

Thanks for this! I don't know much about EVA, but this thread has prompted me to start researching.

[Equine Reproduction]

Grayfox actually covered most of the issues in her post, but I'll respond a little bit to a few issues here. It's more about an effort to educate than anything else, so please don't view my responses as an attack. Ignorance, I think, is the biggest issue with EVA.

And there is not a single vet in the area that would vaccinate one mare, without the written consent from the other mare owner's (I appreciate this as a MO).

That is EXACTLY the problem I am referring to. As Jill noted, other mares are highly unlikely to contract the disease from a vaccinated mare. Indeed, there has, to my knowledge, never been a documented case of another horse contracting a live active case of the disease from another vaccinated horse.

And isolating one mare in a group of 30 horses is not easy when there is one barn (all horses must come in at night).

Unless the mare is running with other horses, which I certainly understand and appreciate, bringing a horse in and out isn't going to be an issue.

Not trying to start an argument, I know that in theory EVA shouldn't be a hard thing to vaccinate for -- the separation really isn't too difficult, but at a bust show/training barn that happens to have a few broodmares, it really is not feasible.

<smile>...Not an argument. As you have noted, the issue isn't with the vaccination, it's with the ignorance involved. We receive phone calls and emails every day about the problem. It's unfortunate as so many refer to their vets for information and many vets are woefully ignorant of the disease, the protocols and the risks. As many breeders aren't even aware of the disease, it is understandable that many vets just aren't familiar with it, but it is also unfortunate that much of the misinformation is disseminated by vets.

I'm curious to know how expensive the vaccine is. Paying for quarantine at a boarding barn isn't cheap either. For how many studs there are out there... we like him, but at this point, the trouble isn't worth it.

The vaccine generally runs around $35-$40. And, it's not like you have to quarantine with huge amounts of bio-security so it shouldn't cost you a lot of money. Simply keeping the horses sufficiently separate so that they cannot make physical contact is all that is generally required. No bio clothing, no foot baths, no need to worry about washing between contact of animals... I began vaccinating our stallions years ago because I recognized the risk of one of them being inadvertently being exposed at a show by an actively acutely infected animal. And, while after the Quarter Horse outbreak a couple years ago, mare owners and stallion owners are more conscious of the disease, I would say that most horses still are not tested and/or vaccinated for the disease. We do what we can to minimize the risks by vaccinating all of our horses.

Hope that helps explain at least some of the questions. There are a few articles on our website about EVA that were written in conjunction with Dr. Peter Timoney. We attempted to answer many of the questions and concerns on EVA and I "think" we managed to do that. Here are the links to a couple of the articles: http://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/EVA.shtml and http://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/EVA-facts.shtml

[Andrew]

ABSOLUTELY A TRUELY AWSOME SIRE!!

Just The Best.

www.tishquirk.com

[krfarms]

after reading all this I would be really confused if I were you. I think it is so early in the season, yes look for alternatives, but wait and see what happens with Aprio. If you really love him don't give up on him yet. But check with Barbara because when he is ready, he probably will be booked pretty heavily. I really love him, but alas, not breeding anything this year. The barn is too full already!!.

[Fairview Horse Center]

For those that have their heart set on Apiro, chemical collection may be a possibility. Not really reliable, but if you use P & E, and get a date, the cost per cycle should be minimal, and worth a try to see if it would work for an ejaculation. You may check to see if they are willing to try.

[Aubreyyy]

For those that have their heart set on Apiro, chemical collection may be a possibility. Not really reliable, but if you use P & E, and get a date, the cost per cycle should be minimal, and worth a try to see if it would work for an ejaculation. You may check to see if they are willing to try.

Could you explain that method? I googled and couldn't get anything. I'm a lurker thats never heard of that!

[Fairview Horse Center]

http://research.vet.upenn.edu/Portals/49/91xylazi.pdf

http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/AAEP/1998/Johnston.pdf

It works in 70% of the stallions, 70% of the time.

[showjumpers66]

We have been using chemical ejaculation successfully to collect semen for freezing and for mare owners who are in dire straights, but it is not something that we want to do frequently. Last year, Apiro was collected 4 to 7 days every week throughout May, June, and July. I can't see that using the drugs long term with this frequency would be safe for his health, so I don't see it as a viable option. Hopefully, we can start ground collecting after May 1st and the problem will be solved.

[Equine Reproduction]

As Barbara noted, chemical collection has been used on Apiro with good success. We are freezing him in order to accommodate those breeders that are booked to him. Fortunately, Apiro has very good frozen semen :D so with mare owners that aren't entirely comfortable with it, he's certainly a good one to start with. We also worked with him on ground collection and he's got that figured out as well. So hopefully, he will have healed well enough shortly that the whole collection issue will be moot.

Could you explain that method? I googled and couldn't get anything. I'm a lurker thats never heard of that!

The stallion is given Imipramine, a human tricyclic antidepressant, that lowers the ejaculatory threshold. He is then given a tranquilizing dose of xylazine (Rompun) or detomidine (Dermosedan). While entering the tranquilizing phase, the stallion will spontaneously ejaculate. Unfortunately, it doesn't work in all stallions. As Darlyn noted, 70% of stallions 70% of the time. And, as you "are" tranquilizing the stallion every time you do use the method, you are running the risks associated with tranquilization every time you use the method. So, I definitely don't blame Silver Creek for not wanting to use it every time someone needs semen, especially in light of the fact that Apiro "does" have good quality frozen semen.

Hopefully, Apiro will be sufficiently healed here shortly that he will be able to be collected on the ground when semen is needed. He was a quick study on that, as well, so if the break has healed sufficiently, at least there will be less stress with that method of collection than when using the breeding mount.

Hope that helps!

[showjumpers66]

:D Great news!!! Apiro has been cleared to be collected. :cool:

[sixpoundfarm]

I'll bet he agrees!! :lol: Glad to hear he's on the road to wellness. :)

[showjumpers66]

Oh boy does he ever!! :yes:

[Blacktree]

Great news!!! So glad to hear that he's healing well. :)

[DLee]

Great news for me as my girl is booked!! :yes: