Should seller take pony back? (kinda long!)

[flashykatt]

A friend of mine, J, bought a welsh pony for her daughter (I think her daughter is 7). The pony is about 12 hands, very cute, was advertised as being "kind and gentle" and "a gentleman" and "winning in short stirrup" and "ready to move up to the smalls" etc. The price was somewhere in the low thousands range.

J is a very experienced horse woman, she has started horses from scratch up through competing in eventing, she has worked at multiple horse facilities and handled quite a few stallions for breeding.

Seller has a good reputation, is also a very reputable breeder (although she did not breed this pony but instead took him in as a sales prospect).

J was told that the pony, L, was "kind of a pill to worm". Let me interject that J asked me what that would have meant to me, and I said, that would make think that the pony like backed away, threw his head up maybe, swung his nose all around trying to avoid the wormer, maybe running away in pasture when he sees you have wormer, stuff like that. She said that that was exactly how she interpreted it.

J didn't worm the pony right away, L seemed to have trust issues and J didn't want him to have a bad experience with her until she'd sort of laid the groundwork of a lot of good experiences down first. So L went about 3 months before J attempted to worm him.

J haltered him and went to worm and he got agitated and struck out (possibly at J, possibly just a general striking out). So she got someone to hold L and went again to worm him.

The pony attacked her. Both front feet right to her face. She passed out for a few seconds (she thinks, obviously it's hard for her to be exact) and came to a few seconds later on the ground with the pony's front feet around her head.

The person helping her got the pony off her, and drove her to the emergency room. Her face is beat up, her jaw is misaligned and she has a bad concussion.

This happened a few weeks ago and the pony has been terrified of J ever since, and freaks out about being haltered (possibly pony has reacted violently to being wormed before, and been beaten up in retaliation??)

Obviously this causes a problem--it's hard to trust your 7 year old daughter near a pony that has done this. What happens if the little girl runs up to the pony with a tube of Mentos candy, or a McDonalds drinking straw in her hand? Kids do stuff like that. Seems like a good chance that the pony could mistake it for wormer--and even though the little girl wears a helmet, front hooves to the face could still be lethal.

So J feels that the right thing is for the seller to take the pony back, and refund the money. A pony marketed for children needs to be safe...J is the last person to get upset if her daughter fell off a pony, she understands how horses and ponies are.

But this just seems like the pony is Not Safe for her daughter to be around.

J has not been able to ask the seller to do this yet. She is so emotional about the whole thing that she starts to get really upset just talking about it, let alone to the seller of the pony. I volunteered to ask the seller, and have left messages for her and hope to hear back soon.

So, what say you--is this something where a reputable breeder/seller would step up to the plate and refund the money, or is it buyer beware?

[MHM]

Mmmm, after 3 months? I would not blame the seller for saying all sales are final after that much time had passed.

If they couldn't handle the pony after 3 days, or maybe even 3 weeks, possibly....

It couldn't hurt to ask the seller, I guess.

Has the pony set a foot wrong around the kid? I've known ponies who were perfect with kids, but very nervous around adults. We used to have one smart old small pony who was fantastic in every way... except nobody tall could catch her in the paddock. We had to plan for a kid to be around when it was time to bring her in.

[Go Fish]

Sorry to hear that your friend was injured. But honestly, I'd wonder about her "experience" if she let a 12-hand pony get the better of her. I could knock one of them little suckers over.

I think the pony will be safe around a 7-year-old. Attempting to stick something in its mouth (i.e., a worming tube) is entirely different than a kid approaching with a pop bottle. In my opinion, a 7-year-old should be closely supervised around any equine, anyway.

Probably too late to ask them to take the pony back but you could always ask, I guess.

[SecondEdition]

Your friend should really speak to an attorney specializing in equine law. Depending on what state she is in there may be laws protecting the buyer (or the seller, for that matter). It is worth looking into!

[Rivendell Horses]

Has she tried the wormer bit? (I dont know what it is called) the thing you put in the horse's mouth, like a bit, put the wormer in it to the side, and then push it in? Or a twitch? If he wont take being wormed by hand, what about feed through?

If he is good every other way, but that...aren't there alternatives? (I am sorry your friend got hurt and hope she is doing better!)

[Sabovee]

Big question - was the pony sold with a contract?

If the pony was sold with a contract that states he's being sold as is with no guarantee then your friend owns him!

Either way - although a seller may take a horse back out of the kindness of their heart, once money has exchanged hands (and a contract is hopefully signed) the buyer owns the horse and generally the seller has no responsibility to take said horse back - no matter what was verbally said about the horse.

It's the sellers responsibility to ensure the horse is what they can handle - either through the help of experts (vet, trainer etc) or by themselves.

If I was buying a horse that was hard to worm, I'd take an empty tube of wormer out with me when I went to look at the thing, just to see how it reacts. ESPECIALLY when dealing with a pony for a child. All avenues should have been explored PRIOR to purchase.

It's up to you as a buyer to check that the horse is suitable and is (or isn't) what the seller says it is. There are so few honest sellers out there that it's imperative for a buyer to do the homework required.

[BelladonnaLily]

I agree that 3 months is a long time. If they waited that long, it sounds like the pony was working out in all other ways?

I don't blame you for being worried though. That behavior seems extreme. I have several ponies that hate worming. One will run backwards when given a chance...but I've never had any of them act aggressively towards me. They just want to avoid worming if possible!

I would call the seller, but be prepared to keep the pony. And I would send the pony to someone for a come to Jesus session. Sounds like a brat behavior to the extreme. At 12 hands, someone really ought to be able to do something. Hopefully...

[snkstacres]

Go Fish, probably the most dangerous animal I have ever encountered on this farm was a 12 hh pony. She was fast as the devil and she meant business. The first time was a surprise, and after that, it was three adults to handle her. Yes, she got better enough to be adopted to a child but........................it was three years time and the new owners parent was a professional and everything we had encountered was disclosed. Its been another three years and they are quite the team but, back to the original post.

I have several horses who feel as strongly about being dewormed as this pony. They rear and strike and its simply not possible to fool them but.................they dont make mistakes either. They dont mistake other things as wormer, they do fine with shots etc etc and dont worry about having there teeth looked at or mouthed, but.............a tube of wormer is a killer in there opinion. A worming bit is even worse. I believe that both of my horses associate this with floating but could be wrong. I do know you simply dont worm these two with a tube. With everything out on the market these days, I dont have too either. I use a feed through wormer and they dont mind that. Its been working for a number of years now, there fecals are good so, if the pony is ok in all other ways, give it a chance.

[thatmoody]

After a bad experience with a 17.3 WB (oh, he's a bit of a pill to worm. Yeah, said I, as I stared at his belly WAY in the sky above my head), I always stand at the shoulder to worm, WAY out of reach of the front feeet. I can slip this sucker a tube so fast he doesn't know what hit him! I worked for a while with him with a chain, too - you see the wormer coming and rear? I don't think so. You will at least stand with all 4 feet on the ground. I'm not sure I'd take this pony back after that long - if I get a horse with a problem one of the first things I'm gonna do is test out that problem to see how bad it is. I wouldn't wait 3 months to worm, anyway, especially with a new horse - trust be darned!

I am so sorry that your friend got hurt, though. One of my cardinal rules of worming is to stand by the shoulder and hold the tube so that it's pointing back through my hand. They can't see it and it's a better angle to get the plunger down (I developed this method after I got hand arthritis, btw). Most people point the tube at the horse and this works ok for horses that are good, but I worm a lot of babies and the stealth method is better with a wiggler.

[spaghetti legs]

I think that the buyer is out of luck.

If the new owner is experienced surely she would be able to work with the pony to desensitise it to having it's mouth + lips handled and desensitisation to plungers filled with sugar water or apple sauce ?

Apart from this episode has anything else happened with the pony to suggest it has a screw loose or is dangerously unpredictable ?

[Tamara in TN]

A friend of mine, J, bought a welsh pony for her daughter (I think her daughter is 7).

So, what say you--is this something where a reputable breeder/seller would step up to the plate and refund the money, or is it buyer beware?

90 days is a long time agreed... striking when you worm him can be considered by one person a "pill" and another a nutter....if he has ruined himself with his current owner,and no I'd not think him suitable 7 yo child material even supervised, asking the seller to take him back might be the first step...I would expect them to decline the request....

best

[2enduraceriders]

This is an unhappy situation but I see no reason for the seller to take the pony back.
The first strike should have caused the owner to change how she was dealing with the pony. I too have had a number of horses in that the first time I went to worm them they struck and were beast to worm. They all stand now with just a lead tossed over them. It truly sounds like the owner scared the pony and made things worse rather then better.
For the pony to be that scared of her now we are not getting the whole story.

[Saidapal]

Sorry to hear that your friend was injured. But honestly, I'd wonder about her "experience" if she let a 12-hand pony get the better of her. I could knock one of them little suckers over.

Good grief, the attack was unexpected and the woman ended up unconscious.....and you could have done better? Yeah, right.

I agree 3 months is a long time. But it never hurts to call the seller. If I'm reading this right the seller sold the horse as a sales prospect and she might not have known the extent of the problem.

I had a mare that would rear on the vet when he tried to tube worm her (obviously this was a long time ago). I found out later she had a reputation as a 'vet killer'. After the first time she lifted my big burly vet off the ground (she was a little arabian), we drugged her before we ever started working on her. I never let a vet near her without first doping her to the max. The vet work got done and everybody was safe. In every other respect she was wonderful, and I found a way to work about the problem.

If in three months you haven't noticed any other problem with the pony, I'm not sure I would write it off.

[county]

I wouldn't take it back after 3 months. I wouldn't fight with it to worm either just squirt some liquid wormer on some oats.

[IronwoodFarm]

Unfortunately, I think the buyer made a mistake in not asking the seller exactly what she meant when she said the pony is "kind of a pill to worm." It makes no sense to ask unrelated third parties what they think that statement meant -- ask the seller! Ask the seller specifically what the issues were and how she dealt with it.

If I were the selller, I would not take the pony back except as a consignment to resell. I would have felt that I disclosed the issue.

I do feel sorry for the buyer. Not only was she injured, but I think her pride as an experienced horse person was damaged.

If she truly thinks the pony is unsafe, then she needs to retire it or euthanize it. My guess is that she wishes to do neither. I suspect that the pony is not a good match for her and that selling it would be the better idea. Since she gets emotional about the pony, I would recommend consigning the pony with a third party.

[fargonefarm]

As a seller there is absolutely no way I would take the pony back - three months is a long time. Especially considering that the seller disclosed this pony's issue up front and the buyer still bought the pony despite it. What happened was a very unfortunate incident and I hope the OP's friend recovers quickly. However this in no way becomes the sellers problem since he/she fully disclosed that the pony has this issue.

My mare (now retired) Didn't. Do. Worming. Period. If I tried half of it would end up on the ceiling and half of it would end up in my hair. She is a great mare - I had a wonderfully successful eventing career on her but worming just wasn't her thing. So rather than get us both hurt I switched her to a feed through in combination with a pelleted wormer every 8 weeks. Problem solved. Mare was happy and I am alive to tell the tale. So there are other options out there to make worming safer for everyone involved.

If the pony has been good with everything else and has been a good mount for the child thus far don't give up. Many horses have issues and react contrary to certain things but are great horses in general.

[kahjul]

My pony as a child would do anything I asked-ANYTHING! Rode him all over town bareback without a bridle, TP'd houses at midnight, pulled a cart to pick up friends, (I had a great pony and not a lot of supervision). We alos showed the hunters and won alot. He put my vet in the hospital for 6 weeks over a worming issue. We were't told when we bought him that he didn't like it, and this was back in the day when we wormed twice a year, so we had had him for a while when the vet came out. From that time on he was tranqed-heavily-to be wormed. The old vet is long since retired, but still laughs that that pony hurt him more than any horse in 40+ years of practice!

[pony89]

We tried to worm my mare once, when I first got her. It ended up with two of us hanging on to her halter while she reared and plunged around the stall. Oh, the dramatics! She was not being aggressive, but of course by virtue of being 800 lbs, this is not desirable or safe behavior. Fortunately, she will eat anything in a handful of sweet feed. So I just dispense the wormer/bute/banamine into her grain, give it a stir, and down the hatch it goes:confused:

She has come a long way behavior wise since I first got her, although I know she is still a drama queen about her nose/mouth area and having anything (other than a bit) inserted. I have left well enough alone since I have a no fight way of dealing with this, but I intend on taking out a syringe and some applesauce and working on this issue. I would like her to be able to be orally dosed so she can be a well rounded individual :)

[arabhorse2]

As others have already said, 3 months is a rather long time afterwards to ask the seller to take the pony back and get a refund.

If this is his only dangerous behaviour, there has to be a way around it.

Casper's a PITA to worm, so instead of fighting with him, I dissolve his wormer in warm water and then pour it over his food. No fuss, no muss.

Some horses won't eat it that way, but none of my horses have refused it.

I'm sorry your friend got hurt, but the seller is under no obligation to take back the pony.

[Penthilisea]

You won't know what the seller knows, thinks or feels until you contact her/him. I would do so, in a non accusatory way, share what happened and ask for any relevant information. You can politely express your disappointment. The seller at that point should give away enough through the conversation for you to tell how they feel, or what they think is "owed." Basically feel the seller out, gently, before you ask them to refund your $$!

[BEARCAT]

After 3 months, any behavoir exhibited by the pony could have been brought by the new owners' handling, feeding, training, etc... (Not saying that is the case, but just that it COULD be, especially from the seller's point of view.)
That said, it does not hurt to ask. And if they won't take him back per se, they might help find a new buyer...

[Jsalem]

I can only imagine how frightening and surprising that was! And I can certainly relate to the Buyer's concern now regarding the safety of the pony with the child. HOWEVER, the Seller did warn you. Who knows what she meant by "kind of a pill". For all we know, Seller was a very slick horseman who handled that pony skillfully and only experienced some mild misbehavior. Buyer should have asked more questions or should have tested the waters before purchasing the pony.

It's too late to go back to the Seller and ask for a refund. That's just not fair. It's very likely that the pony IS a perfect gentleman for everything except dworming.

[Speedy]

I don't think the seller should be expected to take the pony back. The seller's statement that the pony was "a pill to worm" was a big red flag that the buyer ignored - the buyer really should have followed up with some questions on that. Had the buyer done that, and the seller lied about the pony's behavior or understated it, then I would say that the seller should take the pony back b/c it would have been misrepresented at that point - but the buyer didn't, and the seller didn't (well, didn't do anything other than tip the buyer off to a potential problem) - so the buyer is out of luck in my opinion. Buying a horse or a pony is like buying a used car - Buyer Beware - always.

The buyer should start using the wormer that goes into the feed - it is available like any other supplement these days. Problem solved.

[mvp]

I'd start with a question, as in "Hey, the pony's all right, and we spent lots of time building trust/respect before we tried worming and she was, in fact, 'quite the pill'!" Tell the story. Then ask what the owner did to get this mare wormed.

If the seller says "Well, it turns out he had to put her on the ground to get it done." Then I don't think the problem was properly disclosed. That's beyond being a pill. If he/she doesn't mention aggressive behavior as part of the problem, I think the buyer has a point, too. To me, "being a pill" means putting up a good fight meant to just escape. Turning aggressive is an entirely different matter.

If the seller describes a reasonable plan for worming (however elaborate), try it. If the pony has never displayed aggression in other situations she doesn't like, don't worry about her safety with the kid. Chances are that the kid will never press the pony the way an adult would. It's also possible that this pony is more broke under saddle than she is on the ground, meaning that she would never dream of saying "No!" with the same ambition while the kid is riding.

If your friend is really concerned about lurking aggression, I think she should consult a pro about solving the problem. Most aggressive horses just need to be shown that the best, most self-preserving decision is submission. That's not a problem for a kid, an emotionally-involved mom to solve, but one for an objective and seasoned pro.

In short then, try to solve the problem before returning the pony or attempting to lay blame.

[Iron Horse Farm]

Your friend should really speak to an attorney specializing in equine law. Depending on what state she is in there may be laws protecting the buyer (or the seller, for that matter). It is worth looking into!

Ahhh, the thinly veiled suggestion to go sue as soon as someone is hurt. And it only took 5 posts. :eek::(

[trubandloki]

I have one horse that deworms easily (the young brat horse who is a a pain about everything else in life but deworms like it is nothing) and one that is a pain (older horse that I would trust with your grandmother riding him).

I think having an issue being dewormed in no way speaks of how the horse handles the rest of life.

For both of mine I take the paste dewormer and squirt it into their grain and stir it up. Poof, de-worming made easy.

:yes:

[findeight]

No.

Seller warned buyer Pony was tough to worm.

Pony is otherwise very suitable and as advertised.

It's been "about 3 months".

Buyer should have, and had plenty of time to, find out just exactly how bad it was to worm.

Am in a Pony populated barn and alot of the Smalls, particulary, are great with kids but hate adults because when they get involved it's never good.

Sorry she got hurt but previously disclosed bad manners at worming time will not make the seller take it back. Nor should they. Sh*t happens and lawsuits will never stop that.

[fargonefarm]

I agree with Iron Horse Farm - when I read the post from SecondEdition about contacting an attorney I got a little sick to my stomach. What is it with everyone and trying to sue? Sheesh!

[EqTrainer]

I agree that 3 months is too long to even think that the seller might take the pony back.

However.. being a Mom.. I would probably euthanize the pony. I know, I know... I know. But I could not ever feel good around it, nor could I sell it in good conscious. Just knowing it was on my farm, and that a child might do something that it perceived as deworming... I could not live w/that.

The only way I would give it away would be with full disclosure, in writing, and to a professional, not an ammy or God forbid, someone w/a child.

Just last week on Horsecare someone described allowing a child to lead a horse thru the barn who had previously attacked people :eek: You cannot save every child from the ignorance and lack of caring from their parents, but you can not participate in it. Sometimes it's the best you can do.

[2enduraceriders]

I agree that 3 months is too long to even think that the seller might take the pony back.

However.. being a Mom.. I would probably euthanize the pony. I know, I know... I know. But I could not ever feel good around it, nor could I sell it in good conscious. Just knowing it was on my farm, and that a child might do something that it perceived as deworming... I could not live w/that.



I am sure glad my child's horses did not have such an egotistical owner!

[RV]

For both of mine I take the paste dewormer and squirt it into their grain and stir it up. Poof, de-worming made easy.

:yes:

Mine worms like a pro and I do this too! I make a mash and add apple sauce and/or molasses. A BO showed me this and I felt too cruel to go back to the other way when we moved. Now during worming time he gets a special treat and slops it happily. So many simple painless ways to make worming easier.

back to the original question - three months is a long time. If there were other problems along the way that you discussed, ok I may consider if this is the last straw, but it doesn't sound like that is the case. At this point from the sellers POV, who knows what's going on with the pony's training etc. may not be worth as much as at the time of purchase, plus the economy keeps sinking. Are you ready to dump the pony? maybe they will take the pony back and refund you less an amount equal to a lease fee? But after all this time, it's your pony and up to their discression to take it back or not.

[Vandy]

Oh, those ponies! Whoever said the ponies think when adults are involved it's going to be a bad situation was absolutely right IME! I have a wonderful (now retired at age 40) pony mare who sent a farrier to the hospital when I first had her...and I don't doubt she'd done this before prior to my ownership. 14 hands of pure terror for any grown man who dared to handle her roughly. However, absolutely safe for kids. Never made a bad move in over a decade as a lesson pony. I almost had a heart attack once when I came in from teaching a lesson and an unsupervised child was sitting in pony's stall, UNDERNEATH her, trying to undo her blanket straps - god bless that pony for just standing there calmly, and the mother who wasn't watching the kid incurred a wrath from me the likes of which had never been seen!

If this is isolated to deworming, no biggie. If it's all-around dangerous, get rid of it, but don't expect seller to take it back after 3 months due to an issue readily disclosed by seller.

[findeight]

Sorry, that Pony did not "attack" anybody.

It was defensive when somebody much bigger then it is tried to overpower it and stick the wormer in it's mouth, scared no doubt and fighting the restraint of another big adult. Bad manners, very bad manners, disobedient. It did not initiate an unprovoked "attack".

No doubt a common case of being afraid of Adults because they knock the snot out of it every time they get involved. It can be worked out over time and there are plenty of ways to worm where it does not have to be tackled and held down.

As long as it likes the kid and presents no other problems, I don't think it needs to be killed.

Oh...horrors...hate to say it but this is a case where NH techniques just might help overcome that fear and build some confidence in the little guy. If you don't like that idea-try some Ace.

[Woodland]

Seriously???? After THREE MONTHS! Oh for Pete's Sake! Tell your friend to grow a spine already! Geez

2 Cases in point:

#1 Lucky Little Star - my Son's pony when he was little. Great pony - he was perfectly safe on that pony. 6 weeks after buying her we tried to clip her for a show. A normally stellar pony took me apart over it. Finally some hobbles and tranquilizer and chain later she was done. Went to the show - my arm in a sling - my Son won EVERY class he entered on her! They had a blast. On Monday I called the seller and asked "How diid you get her clipped for your Son to show?" The seller responded "You didn't try to clip her did you?" Caveat emptor - we bought dermoserdan by the bottle - never had a problem again clipping her :cool:

#2 DD's PERFECT POA Freckles. Is mouth phobic. I can not have his teeth done here - he must go to the Equine Hospital for even a simple float and they knock him out for it. To de worm him I halter him. Pull the lead rope around a 4" x 6" post snub him tight. Get on the other side of a short wall and do it. I KNOW BETTER! He broke my nose the 2nd time I tried - the first was bad - and never again w/o snubbing. My DD has never had a better mount - will never have a better mount. He is SAFE!!!!


Moral of the story? Ponies are QUIRKY deal with it or do not own one. You friend is a lunatic for even considering this to be the sellers problem - geez!!! If the pony is afraid of your friend then she has given him reason to be - SHAME ON HER!!!!

[Jsalem]

Oh my lord! Contact a lawyer? Euthanize the pony? Are you kidding me?

This is a sport involving large animals. Those animals can bite, kick, strike and do all kinds of dangerous things. The seller gave the buyer a heads up. If the buyer is uncomfortable with the pony being around her child now, she could always GIVE the pony back to the seller. Heck for the price (low thousands), the Seller could easily have spent that much leasing the pony.

My daughter's medium pony was a complete DEVIL on the ground. He was wonderful with my child on his back. He's 19 now, still a jerk on the ground. We MANAGE him and he still does his thing, teaching many more children to ride and show.

[Equus_girl]

I have one horse that deworms easily (the young brat horse who is a a pain about everything else in life but deworms like it is nothing) and one that is a pain (older horse that I would trust with your grandmother riding him).

I think having an issue being dewormed in no way speaks of how the horse handles the rest of life.

For both of mine I take the paste dewormer and squirt it into their grain and stir it up. Poof, de-worming made easy.

:yes:

Same here... Why force the horse eat something very unpleasant if you could simply mix it with grain or apple sauce and turn it into good and positive experience?

One on my guys is an angel, the most mellow horse and best behaved citizen you would even meet.

However, when it comes to doing shots or deworming, he is a different horse. Apple sauce did the trick for deworming, but he reared and nearly knocked the vet down last week while getting IV shot done :O Happens to the best of them...

[vacation1]

If it were me, I'd go back to see the seller and ask point-blank, without telling what happened to me, what he'd meant by 'a pill,' just to see what he says. I realize that would be too confrontational for many people, but it's not like you're attacking him with a machete - just curious about a previous exchange. I would be genuinely curious if he says anything about striking.

I see the point that it's the buyer's responsibility, but if the seller knew this pony has embraced striking as a viable option, they should have disclosed that to the buyer, not half-assed it. I suspect, from the deliberately dismissive 'oh, he's just silly about it' tone of saying 'he's a pill about worming,' the seller knew and tried to push the sale while protecting themselves from later accusations of lying. Dunno about legally, but ethically the seller's on shaky ground. If the buyer believed the seller misled her, I don't see the problem in getting a legal POV on it; just because horse sales are traditonally buyer beware doesn't mean you have to suffer silently if you get caught by a crook. Not saying the seller is a crook, of course.

[Iron Horse Farm]

However.. being a Mom.. I would probably euthanize the pony. I know, I know... I know. But I could not ever feel good around it, nor could I sell it in good conscious. Just knowing it was on my farm, and that a child might do something that it perceived as deworming... I could not live w/that.

Aahhhhh! And the required "euthanize it" post!!!

Close this thread now, it is complete!

[Mozart]

3 months have gone by, issue of potential difficulty de-worming was disclosed by seller, your friend is SOL.

I don't think a pony is going to mistake anything else for de-wormer. But such a violent reaction is, shall we say, unsettling considering that this is supposed to a kind and quiet child's pony.

I think if I were the owner I would test this pony is a variety of ways to see if he reacts this way to other "indignities". If not, and he is a good riding pony otherwise, I suppose I would try very hard to de-sensitize to deworming. Or see if he just eat it when added to feed. If pony shows inclination to react so strongly to other things as well...he'd be gone from my barn.

[Ambrey]

Or perhaps the seller just never tried to force it and so never had that experience?

My horse has never tried to strike me when I approach him with something he fears, but then I don't try to force it- I can imagine if I'd tried to have someone hold him so I could clip his face the first time he looked wild eyed and snorting at the clippers, someone would have gotten hurt. Instead I got a bucket of treats and desensitized him over a period of time.

I am guessing there are many here who have horses who are "generally sweethearts, weird about a few things" that can identify with the pony in question. I seriously think this was an operator error (not blaming the owner, just saying she didn't correctly read the pony's body language and back off before he became uncontrollably frightened).

[Giddy-up]

After 3 months the seller isn't going to take the pony back nor would I expect them to. Maybe 3 days as somebody else said, but not 3 months.

Buyer should have further pushed the issue prior to buying (tried handling the pony & seen what happens). Or further questioned seller.

I would call the seller & inquire what they did to get the pony wormed. Perhaps they'll have suggestions or know what doesn't work.

I am 5'11". Sadly some small ponies that I want to pet or play with are quite scared of me just because of my size. Those same ponies are perfectly fine for the "little" people riding them. I wouldn't label the pony "dangerous" just cause it reacted in the worming situation as the buyer had been warned it would.

[cowgirljenn]

Sorry to hear that your friend was injured. But honestly, I'd wonder about her "experience" if she let a 12-hand pony get the better of her. I could knock one of them little suckers over.


Our rescue had one who was around that size, maybe smaller, who was DANGEROUS. He was sneaky and fast and would use anything he needed to to fight back. (And fighting back might mean to being haltered, cornered in any way, etc.). Ponies can be dangerous - especially if you aren't expecting it. They still outweigh you and have the advantage of their hooves and teeth.

[EqTrainer]

Aahhhhh! And the required "euthanize it" post!!!

Close this thread now, it is complete!

Ahhhhhhhh! And the after-euthanize-post freak out!

And of course you did not bother to note the other comments that I made, about things that could be done. The drama llamas always edit out that part to make it fit their drama agenda ... :lol:

[avezan]

After 3 months, any behavoir exhibited by the pony could have been brought by the new owners' handling, feeding, training, etc... (Not saying that is the case, but just that it COULD be, especially from the seller's point of view.)
That said, it does not hurt to ask. And if they won't take him back per se, they might help find a new buyer...

My sentiments exactly. As a seller, I have no idea what has been done with that pony in the 3 months that may have caused this pony's behavior. Maybe nothing, but maybe the new owner is not as "experienced" as she thinks. I would not take the pony back if I were the seller, but I may offer my help to re-sell the pony. It can't hurt to contact the seller in a non-confrontational way and see what they may suggest.

[BuddyRoo]

Heavens. My friend has a pony (for her 6YO daughter) who is not only a "pill" to deworm, clip, etc....but absolutely nuts about needles as well.

I can recall the day we were joined by the dentist and his assistant--couple of larger guys--and the vet was trying to tranq the pone pone. We were all--all FOUR OF US--getting tossed around the stall.

I've had the occasion to deworm her, give her pergolide via syringe, and help clip her. Very challenging.

To me, this is not euthanasia material. Just need a better plan. If the pony is otherwise saintly, work around it. Daily dewormer perhaps?

[merrygoround]

Sorry to hear that your friend was injured. But honestly, I'd wonder about her "experience" if she let a 12-hand pony get the better of her. I could knock one of them little suckers over.

I wonder about your "experience" making such a statement. I have not so fond memories of a couple pretty grey ones.

[Go Fish]

Good grief, the attack was unexpected and the woman ended up unconscious.....and you could have done better? Yeah, right.

Hon, try reading for comprehension. The seller disclosed that the pony was a pill to worm.

Yes, I could have done better. Never, ever, especially if you know going in that a horse has an issue that you know about, put yourself in a position to get hurt. If you are standing by a horses shoulder, they have a difficult time rearing and striking you. That's a start. I probably would have aced or put a twitch on to get this done the first time, knowing that there was an issue surrounding worming.

[sunkistbey]

Ahh ponies! I grew up riding them and in high school got a job breaking them. Since then I have had a few as well as several large (16+hh) horses. I have more scars from ponies than I ever got from all my horses combined. :lol:
That being said, my best school horse was a 16.3 Irish Draft cross who could not be wormed, could not have his sheath cleaned and could not have his mane pulled. He was dead safe to ride, especially for beginners, and dead safe to handle if you remebered his three rules, no mane pulling, no worming and no sheath cleaning. (You could groom his sheath and mane, but you could not pull on either one. )
I would never have considered euthanizing him. He lived to be a ripe old age and carried many green riders safely around their first shows. Roached mane and all. :)

[InWhyCee Redux]

Sorry to hear that your friend was injured. But honestly, I'd wonder about her "experience" if she let a 12-hand pony get the better of her. I could knock one of them little suckers over.



You must deal with some very wimpy, and very toothless, little ponies. :no:

[EqTrainer]

FWIW, my concern is not so much that he *did* it...

but that it is reported that when she woke up, he was still doing it.

Striking someone is one thing. Continuing on after they are down is another. If I misread that, I stand corrected. But otherwise...

it's not quite the same thing, IMO.

[findeight]

The description is second hand and the owner was upset at the time she described it. I'd not read too much into it.

Make no mistake, I am in the "they named them Pony because the other 4 letter word was taken" camp. Those who have never had problems? Just imagine one of those boxing kangaroos or getting a halter on a really big weanling that has never been handled.

It's a fact the smaller they are, the more they can hate Adults and the more you trap and try to fight them, the more the little stinkers will fight back. You MUST outsmart them, not try to overpower or out muscle-or you lose.

Obviously, if you could start them yourself, you could not let this get started but, most of the time, they come from elsewhere. Like this one did.
But they just loooove the little kids.

[arabhorse2]

EqTrainer, I didn't read the OP's post quite the same way.

My take on it was that the owner woke up with her head between the pony's front feet, not that he was still trying to stomp her.

I could be wrong. If he was still trying to hurt her after she was down, then yes, he probably has other issues that would make him dangerous.

[FlashGordon]

J haltered him and went to worm and he got agitated and struck out (possibly at J, possibly just a general striking out). So she got someone to hold L and went again to worm him.

The pony attacked her. Both front feet right to her face. She passed out for a few seconds (she thinks, obviously it's hard for her to be exact) and came to a few seconds later on the ground with the pony's front feet around her head.

The person helping her got the pony off her, and drove her to the emergency room. Her face is beat up, her jaw is misaligned and she has a bad concussion.



The account is a bit muddy. So the pony attacked her, while someone else was holding it. And she woke up "a few seconds later" but isn't sure how long really.... well wouldn't the helper know how long J was knocked out?

I'll tell you what if I were the person helping I'd probably do everything in my power to get the pony AWAY from J as he was "attacking" and immediately after. I don't get how J woke up with the pony's feet "around her head." Even in a 10 x 10 stall you should be able to get the pony clear of the injured person.

More importantly.... frankly, I wouldn't be cornering a pony in a stall to worm it. Especially if I knew it was a PITA to worm. Why is that always people's first instinct? Oh the horse is bad for X so let's corner it in a stall and git-r-done. Perfect way to piss off a horse/pony that may already be claustrophobic or insecure.

Sorry, someone had to play Devil's Advocate here.

And no, the seller is not responsible for anything, IMO.

**My bad-- no mention of horse being in a stall in OP. But given that the horse was still standing above the person on the ground it seemed implied that they were in a confined space. Otherwise, pony should be about a mile backwards, if the helper was really doing their job...

[Pookah]

I think it's going to be difficult to talk a seller into taking the pony back after 90 days, but the worst thing the seller can do is say no, right? Doesn't hurt to ask. I have to also add, if it makes your friend feel better, that my first pony was a holy terror about injections--as in, she was a petite medium, and two big men had to pretty much hold her down to get a needle in her. Turns out she just detested adults, and when my sister and I learned to give shots, she never had a problem again. NOT suggesting that as a solution, but just saying that some ponies really do just prefer children to adults, and I honestly know several ponies who are just monsters for adults but perfect angels for kids.

[li'l bit]

As I understand it, she had someone else helping to hold the pony. What the heck was the helper doing while the owner got knocked down, passed out, and STILL woke up with the pony standing over her????????
Something about this story must have gotten lost in translation:confused:

[EqTrainer]

Of course it is true, second hand account and all. I just try to go by what they say. The words "The person helping her got the pony off her" made me think that it was more than just a rear/strike.

But true, we don't know. I would feel like that was a big factor for me. Lots of my horses have struck at me for different reasons, they have kicked, they have bit.. but they didn't keep coming. So if he did... that would be a much more serious issue to me, then a horse or pony who did something once, got what they wanted out of it and quit.

---

I have known a lot of ponies who really disliked adults and adored children.. it is true that they can be that way. I've sold some of them, with a strict warning to the adults about their quirks. I was much more specific than "a pill" about something, of course.. but really, ponies *are* different. I tell people that all the time. As long as they do their job with their little people, I can forgive a lot. Just wanted to say that so I didn't sound like a pony hater!

[atr]

If a professional horse dealer told me a pony was "kind of a pill" to do anything with, I'd read fairly deeply between the lines and assume it was going to be a serious issue, or they wouldn't have mentioned it at all.

[findeight]

If a professional horse dealer told me a pony was "kind of a pill" to do anything with, I'd read fairly deeply between the lines and assume it was going to be a serious issue, or they wouldn't have mentioned it at all.

Boy, ain't that the truth.

Usually all you get is "Really, he never did that with me":rolleyes:

[FlashGordon]

But true, we don't know. I would feel like that was a big factor for me. Lots of my horses have struck at me for different reasons, they have kicked, they have bit.. but they didn't keep coming. So if he did... that would be a much more serious issue to me, then a horse or pony who did something once, got what they wanted out of it and quit.



I agree..... it is one thing for them to lash out, quite another for them to lash out and continue attacking. And yes I'm with you in that those should probably be euth'd.

[Calhoun]

Forget about the pony's trust problems, I would never let it around my daughter after pulling that trick. The OP mentions the pony now has issues with her friend and being haltered. For the sake of everyone involved, the pony needs to leave her barn before human or animal has a breakdown. Does she have a kind and compassionate horse friend who likes a challenge?

Yes, she should call the breeder and let her know what happened, but with no expectations of taking the pony back. She will just have to right this off as bad things happen to good people. BTW, if the breeder knew of this behavior, shame on them for selling to a child.

From reading this thread I've learned when a seller says the horse in question has an issue . . . show me the issue honey, before I show you the money.

[Saidapal]

Hon, try reading for comprehension. The seller disclosed that the pony was a pill to worm.

Yes, I could have done better. Never, ever, especially if you know going in that a horse has an issue that you know about, put yourself in a position to get hurt. If you are standing by a horses shoulder, they have a difficult time rearing and striking you. That's a start. I probably would have aced or put a twitch on to get this done the first time, knowing that there was an issue surrounding worming.

I comprehend just fine. "Pill to worm" and "striking out with lethal force" are two entirely separate issues in my book. 20/20 hindsight is priceless, and the woulda, coulda, shoulda's could fill volumes.

And if you have never been surprised by a pony/horse doing something unexpectedly, more power to you. Your either a very lucky woman or haven't been around horses for very long.

[fordtraktor]

Feed it a daily wormer and/or give it worming shots.

I am somewhat suspicious of the story because of the pony's continued bad behavior afterward. I assume the previous owner must have wormed it at some point, and the pony could still be caught/haltered/etc. It makes me wonder if New Owner didn't traumatize the pony in some way only partially related to sticking a tube of wormer in its mouth.

No way would I expect the seller to take it back. If New Owner is afraid to keep it for her daughter, she should sell it again.

I have had a lot of people that claimed to be "experienced" try horses from me. Experience is in the mind of the beholder.

[BuddyRoo]

On the flipside...if I sold a horse/pony that I knew had some issues but they could be easily worked around and horse/pony was otherwise easy to deal with and I got a call like this? I might be inclined to take the horse/pony back and find it a better fit. For the sake of the horse/pony. IF I could afford to.

Not sure I would give them all the money back though. They had use of the horse for X time and who knows what they did with it during that time.

[mp]

No, seller should not have to take pony back.

Whether "pill to worm" was full disclosure or not depends on your perspective AND how the owner approached said pony.

If someone told ME that, I probably would have worked with the little sucker first to see what constitutes being a pill. But that's because I have a mare that used to strenuously object to worming. I mentioned this to my husband (fairly experienced with horses) and he volunteered to "take care of that." He took hold of the cheek piece of her halter and when he attempted to put the tube in her mouth, she jerked her head up hard and backed up so fast, he went airborne. He weighs ~200#. She is about 14.2. Mare 1, Husband 0.

So we went back to my method, which is slow and easy and involves lots of treats and praise. First time, it took about an hour. Now it takes about 2 minutes or less. No twitch. No ace. She still doesn't like it, but I don't get stomped OR go airborne either. ;)

[trubandloki]

A bunch of people must have lots of perfect in every way horses/ponies.

I can see the owner not wanting the pony any more because they have an issue with it. But I do not see a pony having an issue with deworming as such a horrible thing. It is not like the little kid is going to deworm the pony with no adult input.

It does sound like there is tons more to this story than is being posted.

[Go Fish]

I comprehend just fine. "Pill to worm" and "striking out with lethal force" are two entirely separate issues in my book. 20/20 hindsight is priceless, and the woulda, coulda, shoulda's could fill volumes.

And if you have never been surprised by a pony/horse doing something unexpectedly, more power to you. Your either a very lucky woman or haven't been around horses for very long.

I love that you make assumptions about me. Lucky, no...smart, yes. I've been showing/breeding/raising horses for over 50 years. Two world champions just to get started. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. ;)

[sidepasser]

Sounds like new owner didn't pursue the subject of "a pill to worm"..she was warned. If that is the ONLY problem said pony has and is good under saddle and good with the wee folk, then give the blooming pony wormer in the feed and be grateful.

I've seen ponies that were truly AWFUL, biters, kickers, strikers, buckers, runaways (trust me, I looked at a LOT of ponies before getting my daughters their second pony - first pony was a gem and lived at my Dad's until death) and I always question in great detail..what do you mean "pony is hard to catch, trim, worm, shots, etc.????"

Me thinks there is more to the story than just "hard to worm" but unfortunately we likely won't hear about that. Now if new owner was purposefully MISLED I would be inclined to say the former owner should make amends, but come on, it's been 3 months..who goes three months without worming an equine (*unless fecals come back negative).

[pony grandma]

Good thing we're still not tubing! :lol: Have you tried giving this pony a shot yet? :winkgrin:

We've had several ponies - I had a little Shetland yrs ago, she could scramble out from under 3 grown men sitting on her. Ponies are slippery little suckers. And quick to react. and wise! :yes:

Our Welsh right now is the hardest thing in the barn to give a shot -- they could sell pony-sized stocks! I learned to give a shot the old fastest in the west style. Don't ever hesitate, don't set it up, move in and be done.

This never did be a factor to their behavior with kids.

[cloudyandcallie]

Has she tried the wormer bit? (I dont know what it is called) the thing you put in the horse's mouth, like a bit, put the wormer in it to the side, and then push it in? Or a twitch? If he wont take being wormed by hand, what about feed through?

If he is good every other way, but that...aren't there alternatives? (I am sorry your friend got hurt and hope she is doing better!)

Jeffersequine has this and it works.

Or go with the daily, feed thru wormers.

[Wigwag]

I'd just switch him to a daily dewormer in this case and call it a day.

Do some groundwork, sit near him and talk to him while he's eating his meals, work on rebuilding the lost trust.

[Chall]

If the current owner really wants to return the horse, perhaps paying 3 months leasing fee would make that a more acceptable. Removing the possible danger factor, I'm sure the original seller would take the pony back - if the current owner didn't want any money back. So starting there, there is probably a monetary point where the seller would be willing to take the pony back.

[Woodland]

I'll take it! I have lots of experience with woman eating ponies - seriously!

[dr j]

I wouldn't take it back after 3 months. I wouldn't fight with it to worm either just squirt some liquid wormer on some oats.


Agreed, or nothing at all. A pony like this could probably live a long time without see a tube of wormer with very few ill effects. Esp if he has been dewormed regularly most of his life ( which is a good question to ask the seller..... what was her method/frequency).

He is OK for bitting and everything else I assume.

There is not a deworming in the world worth getting severely injured over.

[SecondEdition]

I agree with Iron Horse Farm - when I read the post from SecondEdition about contacting an attorney I got a little sick to my stomach. What is it with everyone and trying to sue? Sheesh!


I was not suggesting she sue! :( I'm sorry if it seemed that way, it was definitely not "thinly veiled" as I was on a different train of thought entirely. I think that the excessive lawsuits in the horse world (and otherwise) make it hard for anyone to make a living in the business.

What I was alluding to was maybe there was some sort of Consumer Law statute that could give her more information on the laws regarding goods (which horses are often considered under the law) being fit for the purpose they were advertised for, and perhaps aid the lady in being able to return the pony and get her money back.

The sale of a horse is a legal transaction, and returning a horse that you bought would be a legal transaction, so I thought that talking to an equine attorney would make sense...

[vali]

Well, our little Welsh pony doesn't strike but she does try awfully hard to get away when it's worming time. She's far harder to worm than any of our big horses. Luckily she is also a huge piglet and will willingly eat worm paste mixed with some hay pellets. She also is not a fan of shots, but she is perfect with our daughters, so we work around it. I wouldn't assume she is a danger to your daughter, ponies often are quite good at distinguishing between adults with pokey things and children.

[Dune]

I have one that is "a pill to worm" as well. I suppose that if you don't know what you're doing, you could get a black eye...or worse...depending on where you are standing. :uhoh: For me, though, she's easy...go figure. :confused: This is the same one that I was advised was "dangerous" during the vet check because she "struck/reared/bit/kicked" while they were trying to draw blood and take her temperature. I can do all those things by myself while she's standing in the crossties....HOWever, I have seen enough of her "in action" to know that with the "wrong person" or the "wrong approach" BAD things may happen. :lol: I don't know what to say about horses/ponies like these....I really don't. :no: In this case, though, enough time has gone by and nothing else weird has happened, so I'm not inclined to think this is a bad pony overall or that a refund is required. Sorry.

[Thomas_1]

This was one of those postings where I shook my head in total disbelief at the question asked.

The pony was sold and honestly described. When it was sold 3 MONTHS AGO the buyer was specifically "warned" that it was difficult to worm.

Yet the new owner took it on herself not to attempt to worm. BONKERS!!!! Stark staring bonkers!!!!!

I'm wondering what this new owner would have done if she'd been told the pony was a bit of a pill to ride. Would she just have parked it up and avoided the issue?

Indeed I'm wondering what she has done with the pony in the last 3 months? Has she done everything else you'd expect to do with a child's pony? e.g. groom it, pick out it's feet daily, get the farrier in, catch it, lead it, trailer it, long rein it, lunge it, lead it whilst child rides it for the first time, let child ride it? If so how has it behaved with all this activity?

So now she's tried to worm the pony and landed up getting kicked and knocked out. Tough! It's what happens if you don't handle horses with problems carefully and with regard to your personal safety at all times. If you stand where you should when you administer wormers, then you can't get kicked in the face!

And we're supposed to believe this is an immensely experienced horse trainer used to stallions etc etc etc. I'm thinking that if that is the case that they've likely done what a lot of folks do with ponies ....... and I include myself too!

Too often cute and small is their disguise and they trick you into forgetting that you've still to handle them as if they're a horse with attitude or bad training or spoilt.

One of my own farrier had his knee cap broken by a shetland pony that lashed out! And he has race horses of his own and is bloody good with difficult and spoilt horses. One of my equine vets had his finger end bitten off by a welsh section A. Last month I had an 11 hand pony do a full height rear in a carriage with me and when I leapt off and round to head it, it tried to strike out.

But we're talking about a problem worming here. THAT'S easy to sort out. I've currently got 2 horses that are horrors to worm. I'd tell folks that though rather than saying they're "pills" to worm. But then we just don't have that expression here. One is blind and resultant from serious abuse and head injury in her early life. The other was wrecked by a fruit loop natural horse trainer and though getting better is still inclined to be terrified of it's own shadow! So we worm with feed or else use injectible wormer. SORTED! No need for a battle. No need to scare the sh** out of the horse. No need to put yourself at risk.

(But this is a pony! All you need to do is pretend to eat wormer and go yummy yummy yummy and pony things FOOD....... GONE! And if you're not quick, fingers with it! ;) )

I fail to understand posters who think that the seller is in any way responsible or that they should have said "the pony might strike out and you might be unlucky and get a smack on the head if that happens and you might land up unconscious". Heck EVERY horse has the potential to do that if it's feeling cornered or trapped and fearful. EVERY horse. EVERY pony! Sorry but I don't accept that a horse owner wouldn't know that. For sure I don't buy that a horse owner wouldn't know it. It's why you wear steel toe capped boots and a hard hat and never stand in front of them in striking distance when they're giving you the 'let me out of here' signals and you're a horse trainer !

Should the old owner take the pony back? Well they may well decide they want to having sold the pony with full honest description to someone who isn't able to manage it.

Do they have any obligation to take it back? No way!

[Marieke]

No experienced horse person would stand in front of a horse/pony to do anything. You stand next to the horse.

How can she have been stricken and knocked out when standing in the proper position?

No, the seller is not required or obliged to take the pony back.

[thatmoody]

Speaking of horror pone stories - we just took in a tiny 8 year old mini stallion that is feral as heck, and he's been...interesting. Pone in question has actually been running semi-wild at a fish camp all his life and was a stud to boot! First order of business was gelding, of course, and it took 3 of us to tranq him - one with a taut leadrope in front, one with another one passed through his back legs to hold him down (he's a serious rearer-striker, and he MEANS it!). This tiny little brat almost had our number, but we finally got him down and gelded. We've used the recovery week to work with him on leading and lunging skills, and he's coming along nicely. But what a little stinker, and the meanest little brat I've ever dealt with!

[Saidapal]

I love that you make assumptions about me. Lucky, no...smart, yes. I've been showing/breeding/raising horses for over 50 years. Two world champions just to get started. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. ;)

Good for you (smoking pipe). I guess over the years you lost your ability to recognize that some of us still make mistakes.

[BelladonnaLily]

My, how times have changed :lol: Euthanize or sue :eek:

My first pony was wonderful. I rode her bareback all over creation when I was a kid. She was bombproof, you could tie anything on her, to her, whatever. We little grass in a pasture, so she was frequently tied in my grandmothers yard with a chain linked to a couple of cinderblocks. :eek: Never once got tangled. Too many good stories to tell about her.

But, she would kick the fire out of you if the mood struck. If she was in a foul mood and you weren't paying attention, she'd whirl around, double-barrel you, and leave you laying there to catch your breath while she trotted back to the barn to put her head in the grain barrel. She'd also rub you off on trees, and occassionally buck you off at the FARTHEST point you were riding and make you walk back home (usually getting there 1/2 hour after she did ;) ). Now, she did none of these things if you were paying attention...so you learned pretty quick to pay attention.

I miss that pony :yes: :lol:

[MistyBlue]

New owner shouldn't have tried worming a pony who was "a pill to worm" by standing in front of it. And after it struck out the first time in warning...that should *definitely* have told new owner "standing in front of pissed off pony while worming it is a pretty bad idea."
Totally must have sucked to get knocked down and hit in the face by the pony...but seller warned new owner and new pony warned new owner.
And since they have feed through wormers these days...I don't see it as an issue at all. Pony hates tube wormer? Fine, give it feed through. Problem solved.
No consumer attorney would touch this with a ten foot pole and any seller would have every right to refuse to take pony back. They'd also have every right to shake their heads in belief at the suggestion of taking the pony back. That's ridiculous.
As for pony now acting up around new owner...as others have mentioned the last owner had to have wormed it in some way before and still worked with the pony without problems. So I'd guess the new owner was freaked out about the injury and is acting different around the new pony. Probably nerves causing issues, not the pony.
I'm wondering why the new owner didn't just start the pony on feed through wormer from day one if they already knew the pony was a pill to worm? They waited long enough to not traumatize the pony and build up a relationship with it...why not avoid the trauma altogether and just get liquid pour-on or pellet wormer?

[CatOnLap]

Yeah, Misty that's kind of what I was thinking- who stands in a position where the horse possibly COULD strike you in the face to worm? I do mine from the side. Especially knowing the horse is difficult?

In any case, the buyer should talk to the seller and see what they say about returning the pony, but I think the seller is in perfect rights to tell the buyer a deal is a deal. There was full disclosure of the problem prior to the sale and there are many ways around the problem as have been detailed in the answers here.

Gosh, I have had some horses who were freaked out by one thing and another, like spray bottles or clippers, and yes, did things like strike and lunge and rear and kick initially in response to these objects coming close. Guess what? Training and desensitization takes time but it works. And always wear a helmet around them. And know where the safe zones are to stand so you basically can't get struck or kicked or the horse's body pushes you out of the way as they try.

[Thomas_1]

Yeah, Misty that's kind of what I was thinking- who stands in a position where the horse possibly COULD strike you in the face to worm? I do mine from the side. You know what your problem is though don't you?

You're both just far too logical! ;)

That's not fair though, you can't just expect others to be quite so sensible. This marvellous vastly experienced trainer obviously wanted to just stand in front of the pretty itsby bitsy pony and go "kissy, kissy, have a wormey wormey" and

BIFF, BASH! Whoops!!!

I'm thinking she maybe should have paid heed to my footer :winkgrin:

[Mozart]

This marvellous vastly experienced trainer obviously wanted to just stand in front of the pretty itsby bitsy pony and go "kissy, kissy, have a wormey wormey" and



How could you have drawn that conclusion based on the OP's description? J halters pony, pony strikes out, she gets someone to assist and hold the pony while she makes a second attempt and ends up with hooves in the face? If the pony was sufficiently difficult that she decided she needed an assistant...why would you assume she decided to get "kissy kissy" with the pony.

Whether or not she mishandled the initial de-worming is not really relevant. The question was should the seller take the pony back? I think everyone agrees that no, seller should not have to take the pony back, J was warned that he was difficult to worm.

That ponies can be as difficult or more so than full size horses is no revelation, we all know that.

Now the relevant question is: What does she do now, considering this is a pony intended for a seven year old and the pony displayed a fairly aggressive reaction to a procedure that the vast majority of horses accept with only mild resistance?

This may be the pony's one and only quirk, in which case I would live with it and work around it. But if aggressively striking out is going to be the pony's standard response to things it deems unacceptable...that is not a suitable pony for a child. For an adult, maybe, but not a child.

[Karma]

My mare landed on top of a barn staff member when they tried to deworm her upon arrival at the farm! I pelleted wormed her the first time and then made a point to TRAIN her to accept deworming.

After a few weeks of slow work I can safely deworm her (as can barn staff).

I think the owner of the pony is responsible for not heeding the warnings given by the pony. Always approach a new activity with a new horse with caution. If the horse/pony misbehaves- then back up and teach the behavior you want.

I would not hold fault with the seller. I could also see how the owner would not feel comfortable with her daughter riding the pony and maybe a new home is in order.

[equinelaw]

How could you have drawn that conclusion based on the OP's description? J halters pony, pony strikes out, she gets someone to assist and hold the pony while she makes a second attempt and ends up with hooves in the face? If the pony was sufficiently difficult that she decided she needed an assistant...why would you assume she decided to get "kissy kissy" with the pony.

Whether or not she mishandled the initial de-worming is not really relevant. The question was should the seller take the pony back? I think everyone agrees that no, seller should not have to take the pony back, J was warned that he was difficult to worm.

That ponies can be as difficult or more so than full size horses is no revelation, we all know that.

Now the relevant question is: What does she do now, considering this is a pony intended for a seven year old and the pony displayed a fairly aggressive reaction to a procedure that the vast majority of horses accept with only mild resistance?

This may be the pony's one and only quirk, in which case I would live with it and work around it. But if aggressively striking out is going to be the pony's standard response to things it deems unacceptable...that is not a suitable pony for a child. For an adult, maybe, but not a child.

I sure wouldn't want to sell the pony and be the one that gets sued next time it puts its feet through someone's face. Its a product made for children. It has known dangerous propensities. Maybe not known when it was described as "just a pill" but now known. Its too small for adults. It reacts with violence when pushed. Should the seller take it back?

Hard to say. Does she want to wait and see if it does harm the child and get sued for selling a product intended to be used by a child she freely admitted might be dangerous in certain circumstances? Does her admission that its "a pill" cover face striking? Maybe, maybe not. But is this new owner tries to sell the pony she had better had all waivers of liability in writing so the next owner knows what they are getting into.

I just do not equate difficult to worm or "a pill" with actual aggression. And I expect a jury will not be made up of professional horsemen. Horses rarely strike at a human's face. Which is good, because if and when they do there is no place to stand where they cannot turn and get you. You have all seen horse rear and spin. You can't stand behind it or in front of it or next to it if you have to be safe. If it wants to harm you, not just avoid your actions, it can.

Things may have best been avoided if they gave the pony feed through wormer before this happened, but once you have seen a pony intentionally attack would you really want it near your kid? I had one too. Doesn't mean it was not stupid and he broke quite a few other people's noses. I would not want that liability today.

[dalpal]

Haven't read all the posts...but here's a radical thought....what if the new owner got a professional to help her figure out how to deworm her pony???? Just a thought.

This might be a pony that needs to have the daily dewormer (I know, I know...some like it, some hate it)..and then have the vet tranq the guy twice a year during fall/spring shots to give him ivermectin.

I'm sorry but after 3 months, the new owner needs to buck up and figure something out.....Seller disclosed and shouldn't have to take the pony back.

New owner, should take the initative to find a way to work with pony and that might mean an alternate deworming plan. If that is the ONE thing that is wrong with the pony....it's workable. I'm sorry she got hurt and I feel for her...but they are horses and it can happen. Can't run back to the previous seller everytime something goes wrong. Heck, 3 months after I bought one horse, he sent me flying through the air like a ragdoll and then to add insult to injury....planted his back hoof on my calf as he galloped off. It never occurred to me to call the seller and demand that she take the horse back....it was then my horse and my problem to figure out. I'm happy to say that I still have him three years later and has turned out to be probably the nicest horse that I have ever owned.

Sometimes, we just have to get help from professionals...whether it be trainers or veterinarians.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I definitely vote for TRAINING the pony to accept things like deworming. We purchased a 20 year old pony for the barn kids when my son was a 3/4 year old. He was great with the kids, but a royal terror if an adult tried to deworm, or give shots. His favorite thing was rear. We had a few "lessons" with a chain over his gums, and he improved a LOT. ;)

Some horses I deworm with a dutch door between them and me. I have a draft horse in my barn that my husband helps me deworm. We each have a rope off his halter, on opposite sides of the door - kind of cross tied between us. Door keeps him off of us, and with a bi pf patience, we get the job done safely. That horse is afraid, so it is not something we need to punish him for.

Another is not afraid, but determined to not allow it. With him, I just again, over a door, push his head sideways around a post, so when he jerks it, he hits himself on the post. Once or twice of that, and he stands quietly.

Find a professional to train the pony to accept things like deworming.

[dalpal]

I definitely vote for TRAINING the pony to accept things like deworming. We purchased a 20 year old pony for the barn kids when my son was a 3/4 year old. He was great with the kids, but a royal terror if an adult tried to deworm, or give shots. His favorite thing was rear. We had a few "lessons" with a chain over his gums, and he improved a LOT. ;)

Some horses I deworm with a dutch door between them and me. I have a draft horse in my barn that my husband helps me deworm. We each have a rope off his halter, on opposite sides of the door - kind of cross tied between us. Door keeps him off of us, and with a bi pf patience, we get the job done safely. That horse is afraid, so it is not something we need to punish him for.

Another is not afraid, but determined to not allow it. With him, I just again, over a door, push his head sideways around a post, so when he jerks it, he hits himself on the post. Once or twice of that, and he stands quietly.

Find a professional to train the pony to accept things like deworming.

I agree. Sadly, I see a trend on some of these threads. Instead of trying to fix a problem...people want a quick fix....ie, kill it, sell it, sue someone or send it back. WTF??? I just don't get it. Instead of taking time to see if the dog, horse, cat, whatever can be helped.....I honestly just do not get it.....that's just not how I do things.

A. I would certainly not expect someone to take something back after 3 months just because I need to figure out how ot handle a particular issue.

B. Wouldn't be quick to sell/try to pawn it back off on the previous seller......would probably once again, take the time to work with the pony or have someone else work with the animal.

C. Wouldn't think about sueing someone over disclosure when they obviously did disclose that there was a problem. Maybe the pony was just a pill with the previous owner.....perhaps the new owner should have asked the previous owner...okay, explain and "how do you deworm?"

D. Wouldn't jump to the conclusion that the animal needs to be destroyed. For me, that is a last resort..after everything and I mean everything has been tried (I'm speaking in general, not a horse with a deworming hang up...there are ways to deal with this) I see many times on this board, especially with dogs, that's the first thing people suggest...kill it. I'm sorry, but that should be the last resort after a professional is brought in to evaluate and work with the animal. I don't think euthanisa advice should be given freely on an internet message board....that advice should be left for someone who personally knows the situation. Many people come to this board for advice on how to solve a problem, I'm sure if they wanted to just euthanize, they would have and never asked for anyone's help. I could no imagine destroying anything unless I had no other choice available.

There are plenty of trainers out there who might just be able to help fix this problem...and if this is the only problem/can't be fixed....just find another solution...ie daily dewormer. I've known plenty nice horses in my life who had hang ups over one thing or another...one wouldn't ride in a 2 horse trailer because he slipped and fallen in one.....solution...get a stock trailer. Horse was happy, owner was happy.

Anyway, I digress....but euthanisa should be reserved for the "There is nothing left that I can do for this animal, I have tried everything else."

[Iron Horse Farm]

I agree. Sadly, I see a trend on some of these threads. Instead of trying to fix a problem...people want a quick fix....ie, kill it, sell it, sue someone or send it back. WTF??? I just don't get it. Instead of taking time to see if the dog, horse, cat, whatever can be helped.....I honestly just do not get it.....that's just not how I do things.

A. I would certainly not expect someone to take something back after 3 months just because I need to figure out how ot handle a particular issue.

B. Wouldn't be quick to sell/try to pawn it back off on the previous seller......would probably once again, take the time to work with the pony or have someone else work with the animal.

C. Wouldn't think about sueing someone over disclosure when they obviously did disclose that there was a problem. Maybe the pony was just a pill with the previous owner.....perhaps the new owner should have asked the previous owner...okay, explain and "how do you deworm?"

D. Wouldn't jump to the conclusion that the animal needs to be destroyed. For me, that is a last resort..after everything and I mean everything has been tried (I'm speaking in general, not a horse with a deworming hang up...there are ways to deal with this) I see many times on this board, especially with dogs, that's the first thing people suggest...kill it. I'm sorry, but that should be the last resort after a professional is brought in to evaluate and work with the animal. I don't think euthanisa advice should be given freely on an internet message board....that advice should be left for someone who personally knows the situation. Many people come to this board for advice on how to solve a problem, I'm sure if they wanted to just euthanize, they would have and never asked for anyone's help. I could no imagine destroying anything unless I had no other choice available.

There are plenty of trainers out there who might just be able to help fix this problem...and if this is the only problem/can't be fixed....just find another solution...ie daily dewormer. I've known plenty nice horses in my life who had hang ups over one thing or another...one wouldn't ride in a 2 horse trailer because he slipped and fallen in one.....solution...get a stock trailer. Horse was happy, owner was happy.

Anyway, I digress....but euthanisa should be reserved for the "There is nothing left that I can do for this animal, I have tried everything else."

Get off this board! This is no place for you to come spewing your reason and logic and common sense. What is the world coming to???:D:lol::lol:

[FancyFree]

I agree. Sadly, I see a trend on some of these threads. Instead of trying to fix a problem...people want a quick fix....ie, kill it, sell it, sue someone or send it back. WTF??? I just don't get it. Instead of taking time to see if the dog, horse, cat, whatever can be helped.....I honestly just do not get it.....that's just not how I do things.

I guess some feel it's too time consuming to work through things. It can be very time consuming, but then it's fixed. I've had a few issues with my horse that have taken time and patience to fix. Deworming was one of her issues. It took a lot of patience, days of a syringe filled with applesauce to get her not to freak at the sight of the deworming syringe. But it can be done. Also there are so many options out there, as others have suggested.

I'm curious how one stands in the front of the horse to deworm anyway? You need to put it on the side of the mouth, so why would she stand in the front?

I hope they give the pony a chance. I don't see an issue like deworming as one that will affect how she behaves U/S.

[EqTrainer]

Interesting to note how many people had a pony who was "wonderful".. but had a potentially deadly quirk. I guess if you grew up that way, it seems ok? My first pony was 100% saint. Maybe that's why my standard for pony behaviour is so high, and continues to be for my childrens ponies. Or.. maybe my parents were a little more.. errr... ummmm.. *happy* to have kids then some of the posters parents were?!!! I swear, hearing that someone's childhood pony would double barrel for no reason really makes me wonder if that posters parents weren't just trying to get her killed :eek:

Just thinking out loud here!

I do think Equinelaw has a very good point, that if a pony or horse decides it is going to get you, it IS going to get you. I don't think people realize how fast and deadly accurate a horse truly can be if they intend to take you out. I know that I have been - many, many times - WARNED by horses - but the few times they truly meant it - they did it.

[MistyBlue]

How could you have drawn that conclusion based on the OP's description? J halters pony, pony strikes out, she gets someone to assist and hold the pony while she makes a second attempt and ends up with hooves in the face? If the pony was sufficiently difficult that she decided she needed an assistant...why would you assume she decided to get "kissy kissy" with the pony.
But why stand in front of it? A pony cannot strike out at you with it's front hooves and gt you unless you're in front of it. If I stood in front of a pony/horse and got struck with the front feet...I'd be sure to stand at the shoulder after that! (well, I wouldn't have tried it from the front to begin with, but I digress...)
Got kicked once...stopped standing behind horses. Get struck? Stop standing in front of them. Common sense to me. :winkgrin:

EqTrainer...my first horse was a terror too. But I picked her for that reason. :winkgrin: Mom wasn't horsey since her own teenage years and I was working at the barn riding anyways. But I got most of the bumps and bruises from horses not my own...we had to ride and work a lot of different horses. I knew my own horse better and knew what to expect and what to do with her.
Things may be regional or have changed over the years, but back then in my area it was common procedure to make students lesson on some of the quirky horses. The thought process back then was you learned by riding all sorts of different animals...and with different issues. I personally think we ended up more well rounded riders for it over time, but today times are probably too litigious to go that route. Not to mention kids don't spend 6-12 hours per day at the barn anymore either. Time constraints are tough to work around.
I do think a young child's first rides should be with a well behaved campaigner...but I also think it's a disservice to that child's riding to keep them on the same type forever.

[EqTrainer]

Oh MB, I agree.. but there are *things* and then there are THINGS... you know?!!! :eek:

[lilblackhorse]

haven't dealt with ponies for a long time, but minis are quick like that too. And striking? What if it was more of a rearing episode? their little feet get you just about at face level, a 12hh pony would be a tad higher.

And yes, they all move bloody fast, don't they?

I vote the feed thru wormer. This pony has lost confidence, and it needs to be gained back--either thru a professional or someone who has more confidence. I don't think this pony is a killer and needs to be put to death, nor does the old owner need to be sued or even talked to about this. Three months is called buyer beware. Tough toenails at this point.

As lame as it sounds, clicker training might go a long way to gaining this pony's confidence, and perhaps getting to the point where he'd allow worming....if not, just making it feel better. And maybe some groundwork would make the mother regain HER confidence too.

Sh*t happens around horses--this pony didn't attack her--she stuck something in it's mouth, and sorry, but there had been some warning. This sounds stupid, but my 16.2 hh horse doesn't like wormer either, not that he rears, but he'll back up and put his head up high and be a pain---I tell him what i'm going to do. Maybe it's silly, but after I tell him I'm going to do this, and show it to him instead of doing the stealth move, he's far better (and maybe the stealth move is better for some others)...but I think the friend was ill prepared for the situation. Perhaps having clarified what the old owner meant would have been the first plan....hindsight is 20/20, eh?

[BelladonnaLily]

Interesting to note how many people had a pony who was "wonderful".. but had a potentially deadly quirk. I guess if you grew up that way, it seems ok? My first pony was 100% saint. Maybe that's why my standard for pony behaviour is so high, and continues to be for my childrens ponies. Or.. maybe my parents were a little more.. errr... ummmm.. *happy* to have kids then some of the posters parents were?!!! I swear, hearing that someone's childhood pony would double barrel for no reason really makes me wonder if that posters parents weren't just trying to get her killed :eek:

Just thinking out loud here!


No, my parents just didn't have a clue about horses! And I wasn't raised bubble-wrapped in front of a video game the way children are today. My pony was a complete blast and dependable as hell in most situations. But she kicked. And it didn't take many times before I learned how to deal with that. Had we had the knowledge and access to a pro, all of my ponys problems probably could have been easily fixed. Now we have adults, supposedly experienced with horses, who can't learn how to deal with things. One issue with the pony and everyone wants to euthanize. I'm just not hearing that this is an unfixable problem. I know ponies well as I have a field full of them, and a 12h pony can be a pill, but come on. At least give this pony a chance with a trainer...

[EqTrainer]

Belladonna Lily, I am glad you made it alive :lol: my parents didn't know much about horses either in retrospect, although we had a lot of them..

my daughters pony has a quirk. When you are leading her to her dinner, she might get fast. She might go thru the doorway really quickly. Not bolting, but.. quickly. My daughter knows she can just let go of the leadrope if it looks like she's going to get mashed. Otherwise she stands her ground and turn the pony around and does it again. She is 6. Her brothers pony is a half mini.. she is the devil.. he is big enough that when she tosses him, he's so close to the ground already that he can barely get up.. from laughing so hard. Neither of their ponies are aggressive about *anything* tho. I think ponies are often characters and if the kids get along w/them and feel confident around them, then it's great.

I guess because I read the original post to say that the pony continued on after she was down, I feel that I would really have to draw the line at that. If the pony did go after her after she was already down, that is just too much for me.. for any horse. Let alone a pony. So hopefully I misinterpreted what was written, the pony did not go after her once she was down and he can be retrained and trusted again.

[dalpal]

This is also a second hand account of what happened....if the pony was terrified and the owner hadn't a clue as to what she was doing (just speculating)..aka standing in front of the pony.....it may have actually been an accident...pony trying to get away.

The other day I was stretching my horse's legs in the crossties (very windy day)...the next thing I knew, I had a bay horse dancing on my head in a sheer panic....I thought he had somehow tangled himself up in the crossties.

When I was able to safely get out of the way, I realized that it was my chaps blowing in the wind (they were hanging on a saddlerack)...he just lost it. He is a good horse, but if something scares him....he is very reactive. He is also the same horse who launched me and stepped on me three years ago (I still have the hoof print on my boot to prove it. :lol: ) We never figured that one out...going along at the canter and all of a sudden 8 second ride (I think I held on for 3).....did I get hurt....sure did, didn't have feeling in my lower right leg (where the hoof landed) for about 6 months. Has he ever done anything like that since.....no, he hasn't (knock on wood). Never, ever considered euthanisia.

If this pony has been wonderful for 3 months and has only been reactive to what the previous owner said, I would personally take the time to work with him or just find an alternate deworming program. I've known many a saint who could be evil over this or that...and you just had to respect that they had these issues and deal with them. Knew one who would eat you alive while girthing him.....you had to learn how, or he would get you..and I mean, draw blood. But under saddle, he was absolutely WONDERFUL. Mean snake on the ground, but never put a foot wrong under saddle. He was an I1 schoolmaster...now leased by a 70 something year old lady and she loves him.

Like I said, if the pony was doing everything right up until that moment (which the owner should have gotten some instructions on how to safely deworm this guy), I personally don't deem him a hellion.

They don't coin the term.."Narly pony" for nothing. :lol:

Are there some horses candidates for euthanisia...absolutley......there are some who just are simply dangerous....these are the ones who act like predators and not prey...unpredictable. I'm not against it in severe cases...but I, personally, can not imagine euthanizing an animal because they have an issue that can be managed.

My euthanisia beef with this board is that posters jump to that as the first solution (especially with dog issues) ...for me, that is the absolute LAST resort...and would never feel it was appropriate to suggest it as a solution to a stranger on a message board. Not unless it was a situation where the person had a sick/elderly animal with low quality of life and basically looking for reassurance that it is okay to put the animal down.



JMO.

[MistyBlue]

Oh MB, I agree.. but there are *things* and then there are THINGS... you know?!!! :eek:

Yeah, agree there. Double barreled kicking I'd never have tolerated. The "normal" evil pony half-hearted cow kick....it was just expected I guess from a couple extra evil but adorable Shitlands where I grew up riding. If one of us kids got knocked in the shin and yelled ouch, the coach would just say, "Well you'll pay attention now, won't you? Now walk it off." :lol:
Same with the "normal" stop-n-dumps those little ones have perfected.

I'm not sure what the OP meant in that first post. I just cannot imagine a pro standing in front of a pissy striking pony in the first place, imagining how the pony was still standing straddling her head after a "few seconds being knocked out" even though there was a perfectly conscious handler...just can't wrap my brain around that. My take was a bit of hysterical memory when it was related to the OP the first time. Owner was probably pretty shaken up, but won't make those mistakes again.

[shawneeAcres]

Interesting to note how many people had a pony who was "wonderful".. but had a potentially deadly quirk. I guess if you grew up that way, it seems ok? My first pony was 100% saint. Maybe that's why my standard for pony behaviour is so high, and continues to be for my childrens ponies. Or.. maybe my parents were a little more.. errr... ummmm.. *happy* to have kids then some of the posters parents were?!!! I swear, hearing that someone's childhood pony would double barrel for no reason really makes me wonder if that posters parents weren't just trying to get her killed :eek:

Just thinking out loud here!

I do think Equinelaw has a very good point, that if a pony or horse decides it is going to get you, it IS going to get you. I don't think people realize how fast and deadly accurate a horse truly can be if they intend to take you out. I know that I have been - many, many times - WARNED by horses - but the few times they truly meant it - they did it.


EQtrainer I respect your opinion, however, if you really want to think about safety/horses and children mix, there is honestly no such thing. Yes we do need to take precautions that a horse with a known tendency to have a bad habit not be used for children, if it is something that could be unpredictable or frequent behavoir. However, I ahve had many horses that were holy terrors to paste worm but they knew the difference between anything else and paste wormer, I believe they can smeel it and I would never have hesitated to allow those horses around children. We purcahsed a pony, whom I think you may know well, Lost My Sock. He is a FABULOUS pony, now in his twenties and still packing one of my little students around SS courses. However, that pony WILL bite. You just need to be cautious around him, and yes he has bitten the little girl that owns/rides him. But with care, he is absolutely the BEST pony money could ever buy. I would never have considered for a MOMENT putting this pony down.

[EqTrainer]

SA - I am glad to hear you've got him! He snapped at Amy once and she cleaned his clock and that was the last we ever saw of that behaviour.. but we sold him w/that - and something else? Don't remember what, maybe you know ;) :lol: disclosed.

That is a pony that I consider to be quirky in an acceptable way, I have lots of stories about him, we need to catch up some day..

[rhymeswithfizz]

From an objective point of view, I agree that the pony should be worked with, retrained, dealt with, etc.

But from a parent's point of view, I think it would be impossible for me to ever trust that pony around my little girl again. So I can see the OP's point.

[beetwinnumberone]

MVP and Vacation1 nailed it - I did ask owner, after this happened, how she handled worming this pony. Her answer was that she used the stocks. If she would have just shared that little gem of info with me, this could have all been avoided. I have asked many, many horsemen and horsewomen what their expectation would have been when told "he can be a pill to worm" and all answered with the same expectation that set for me - head tossing, running backwards, pulling away. I even told her, a few days after I brought this pony home, that I was going to give him a probiotic. There was another opportunity to tell me to use the stocks.

For all who thought I might've created this situation: I worked to gain this pony's trust for 3 months. That was going beautifully. I never forced or escalated the worming. The whole thing happened in seconds, probably less than 10 seconds. I've dealt with many difficult to worm horses and never been hurt. In fact, in 35 years of riding, training, barn managing, handling maiden stallions and mares during live cover, raising youngstock, etc., etc., etc., I've only been kicked once before this incident. I am pretty careful about my body and I work hard to avoid escalating an issue with a horse. I have also since learned that the previous owner, who also owned this pony's dad, had to use the stocks to worm the dad, too.

I am not sure I'll do any follow up posts here. While I don't intend to sue the previous owner (there was no sale agreement, FYI), I am not sure this issue is over between her and me so I should not say much.

[beetwinnumberone]

Here is what happened:

First approach, the pony struck out - SIDEWAYS - as soon as I had the syringe near his mouth.

Went and got help and we moved the pony to a location we felt was safer for us.

Standing at the pony's shoulder, tried again. Next thing the helper heard was my jaw getting clocked - of which I have no recollection. I don't know if he got it with another sideways strike or as he reared.

[Lori B]

I don't think that the seller is likely to take the pony back, but I do fault the seller for not being more specific about the worming issue. The characterization given 'can be a pill about worming' does not begin to describe the kind of experience the owner had, and the owner doesn't sound like a dummy or uncareful.

My trainer and I went to tack up and try a horse boarded at our farm as a potential half lease for me. Older mare, much show experience, and we were only told 'mare can be a little girthy'. To make it as brief as possible, we tacked up the mare in what we thought was a slow and careful way, mare didn't react, and we led her to the mounting block, where she EXPLODED, bucking so hard she threw a shoe over my head, then took off across the property, knocked down a few fence rails, and led me and trainer on a merry chase across the farm. Turned out that there was in fact a very specific protocol for tacking up mare to prevent such explosions, but we weren't given that info.

It is dangerous not to disclose honest and specific information about these kinds of dangerous horse behaviors. Dangerous to potential riders and handlers, and in the end, dangerous to the horse with the issue, who when things go badly can very quickly find themselves at the wrong sort of auction. So regardless of legalities, or contracts, the ethical thing to do is to disclose stuff like this fully. The seller could have prevented this injury by being clear and specific about how to worm the pony. Their failure to do so was an act in bad faith, and was directly responsible for the purchaser's injury.

[Cielo Azure]

MVP and Vacation1 nailed it - I did ask owner, after this happened, how she handled worming this pony. Her answer was that she used the stocks. If she would have just shared that little gem of info with me, this could have all been avoided. I have asked many, many horsemen and horsewomen what their expectation would have been when told "he can be a pill to worm" and all answered with the same expectation that set for me - head tossing, running backwards, pulling away. I even told her, a few days after I brought this pony home, that I was going to give him a probiotic. There was another opportunity to tell me to use the stocks.

For all who thought I might've created this situation: I worked to gain this pony's trust for 3 months. That was going beautifully. I never forced or escalated the worming. The whole thing happened in seconds, probably less than 10 seconds. I've dealt with many difficult to worm horses and never been hurt. In fact, in 35 years of riding, training, barn managing, handling maiden stallions and mares during live cover, raising youngstock, etc., etc., etc., I've only been kicked once before this incident. I am pretty careful about my body and I work hard to avoid escalating an issue with a horse. I have also since learned that the previous owner, who also owned this pony's dad, had to use the stocks to worm the dad, too.

I am not sure I'll do any follow up posts here. While I don't intend to sue the previous owner (there was no sale agreement, FYI), I am not sure this issue is over between her and me so I should not say much.

I have two horses that hate tubes and getting meds down them is very difficult. This mare is impossible. She has a head like a battering ram (look at the size of her head in the last photo on the page, for a big head).
http://www.cieloazure.com/glory.html

But what I have found is that Ivermectin is not bad tasting. Just take the tube, squirt it into some sweet feed and most horses will gobble it down. I haven't had issues with getting other combo wormers down this way.

Likewise, probiotics are good! A little grain in the manger and they will lick it up.

just cause it comes in a tube doesn't mean it has to go down in a tube.

[MistyBlue]

Standing at the pony's shoulder, tried again. Next thing the helper heard was my jaw getting clocked - of which I have no recollection. I don't know if he got it with another sideways strike or as he reared.

You need a new helper. ;) Not seeing the pony go up (I would assume it has to be a rear since 12hh front legs are pretty low to the ground) would worry me as to what exactly the helper was doing.

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=beetwinnumberone;4051198]MVP and Vacation1 nailed it - I did ask owner, after this happened, how she handled worming this pony. Her answer was that she used the stocks.


:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

at this point I now consider the seller at fault...I'm sorry you were injured by her deception....

best in what you decide to do...

[Mozart]

Here is what happened:

First approach, the pony struck out - SIDEWAYS - as soon as I had the syringe near his mouth.

Went and got help and we moved the pony to a location we felt was safer for us.

Standing at the pony's shoulder, tried again. Next thing the helper heard was my jaw getting clocked - of which I have no recollection. I don't know if he got it with another sideways strike or as he reared.

I am really glad you posted this clarification. I have a pet peeve with this board, and that is that some posters ASS-U-ME that if something went wrong, the owner or handler MUST be a complete idiot or a rank novice in over their heads. That is indeed sometimes the case but not always. As far as I am concerned let anyone who has NEVER been caught off guard by a horse cast the first stone.

[greysandbays]

I do mine from the front. It's the easiest way on horses that are willing to not be shitheads about it.

The left hand holds the right side of the halter, the left forearm rests alongside the nose, the right hand holds the wormer tube and with a soft fist, does a brief circular rubbing at the corner of the mouth, inserts the tube, shoots the plunger home, withdraws the tube, and repeats the circular rubbing at the corner of the mouth.

This allows for maximum steadying of the head with minimal "confinment". I don't need to "hold them still" or restrain them to any extent, I just need to make sure they don't shift their head even a hair while I'm poking around their mouth with a pointy object.

I suspect a lot of horses get their mouths accidentally gouged with the end of the wormer tube and start thinking worming is So Not A Good Thing. By taking a bit of theoretical "risk" with my safety on decent horses, I can guarantee they don't get gouged. Seems like a fair enough trade-off.

I'd be making real sure I could trust the horse before I tried it though...

[Giddy-up]

BTW, if the breeder knew of this behavior, shame on them for selling to a child.

Really? It was a parent buying & I presume a parent who had final say so. Seller did disclose pony had an issue with worming. Seller didn't go into further detail & buyer didn't press the topic. At least buyer got some warning which is more than I have seen others get about other "issues" sale horses may have.

[Go Fish]

I'm trying to visualize how a horse or pony can strike out sideways.

[Tamara in TN]

Seller did disclose pony had an issue with worming. .

I would argue that since the "normal" way for the seller to deal with the pony was stocks and since most people don't have stocks,it was deceptive to just mention "she's a pill"....

now, if everyone in the world had and used stocks like the old days when we kept lots of draft work stock,then they would have been a standard of "custody,care and control" and I would not have felt bad for the buyer...

as it is, I think, they are an excessive/extreme measure for controlling a 12 hh pony for worming and yes it should have been highlighted even to the loss of the sale....

best

[trubandloki]

I do not find the updates change my opinion.

I also do not see why so many people go to such extremes to struggle to deworm their horses.

Like some many people have posted, just put it in their grain. Normal ordinary paste dewormer stirred in (with some molasses or apple sauce if necessary), it works.

The seller told the buyer there was an issue. If the buyer did not feel the need to ask what the seller meant specifically then it is the fault of the buyer. The seller opened the door for the conversation about it. Obviously the buyer did not feel any problem the seller had would affect them. I do not see why it is the sellers job to force the information on the buyer. Heck, maybe the seller assumed the buyer dewormed by putting it in the grain and that is why the buyer did not seem to be worried about it.

[Huntertwo]

I can't manage to deworm my 13 hand mare by myself. I would not hesitate to let a kid ride her. I wouldn't let a kid tube medicate her, but she's fine to ride and handle.

Especially after 3 months, I don't think the seller has any responsibility to take the pony back.

I have a 13.1 hand POA that used to be a PITA to deworm. She would backup, go forward, every which way.

I finally remembered a trick that an old barn owner told me. Without getting killed of course, when your pony starts to move around DO NOT back away. Keep the tube pressed (maintain contact) against her mouth. Not necessarily in it.

Soon as you back away - She wins. She got exactly what she wanted. The "tube" went away. And it turns into a vicious cycle.

I did this with my mare and now she just stands quitely while I deworm her. No fuss at all. :yes:

[Lori B]

Read the thread, trubandloki. The seller wormed the pony by putting it in STOCKS! So the seller was quite aware that it wasn't just a little tiny minor annoyance, but a serious handling problem. It's not as if the purchaser had a few failed attempts to worm the horse -- she was injured on the first try, and the situation went from a little tough to very dangerous very quickly, if we are to take what is posted at face value.

I don't think that the seller will take the pony back, but I think it was a significant error of judgment and good ethical behavior for the seller not to spell out the extent of this issue. Like I posted before, this pony is at this moment lucky that the purchaser didn't take her straight to auction after a performance like that. Failure to disclose is not just dangerous to purchasers, it is in the end dangerous to the horse or pony, whose undisclosed problem behavior can be dangerous, as this was. Horses that hurt people often wind up in bad places, and it is our responsibility to try to keep that from happening.

[trubandloki]

I have read the entire thread, if you had you would notice I have posted in it several times.

Yes, the pony behaved poorly! No denying that.

But I do not blame the seller. Yes, I think it would have been great if the seller had said up front that they used stocks to deworm. But I do not see how them not extending on what they said as being actionable and grounds for them to take the pony back.

[Lori B]

If you notice, I also don't think that the seller is going to take the pony back. While that is the question the OP asked, I don't think it is the most important question in this thread. And why speculate on what the seller thought the purchaser would do? If the seller was being responsible, they would have spelled this one out. I don't see any wiggle room here. If you want the animals that you are selling to have a shot at a decent well-cared for future, you pass on information like that. If you don't, you are flat out irresponsible.

[trubandloki]

The original question was about the seller taking the pony back. Not what is the most responsible way to sell a pony with a problem.

I have said it would have obviously been best if the seller had said up front 'oh yeah, I use stocks to deworm this pony, just like I do with all my horses'.

But they did not. But they also did not just ignore the issue. The mentioned the pony had a problem. If the buyer wanted more information on the problem it was there job to ask further questions.

[Snowflake]

The seller has no responsibility here, IMHO. New owner waited three months to worm said pony, and there were alternatives to tube deworming. I have used Safeguard pellets from Tractor Supply. Not that big a deal. I don't look at this pony as dangerous or unmanageable.

I had a pony kick me in the face. Worst horse injury of my horsey life. And this little pony is now doing rated hunters with young riders. The accident was a freak thing and has never again presented an issue.

This is where training comes in and should training prove unsuccessful (highly unlikely as this is not a big deal) I would think that any reaonable horse person could manage this. There are alternatives to husbandry and care here that do not pose a threat to the horse's well-being and are simple to implement. Problem solved. It's really not that hard to figure out. You are not owed a refund because there is a failure of logic here. You sign up for bumps, bruises, cuts, scrapes and injury when you work with horses. It comes with the territory. Do what you can to prevent it. Sounds like a pellet or liquid dewormer is your solution here. If that's too difficult, well, don't own horses.

[BEARCAT]

I have a related question:
What if the seller had only had the pony a short time or just did not deworm, would this be an issue? (As in, they would have had no idea of this behavior)

As far as using stocks, perhaps it's common at that barn?
I used to work at a riding stable where they pretty much used stocks to shoe horses, the good ones and the bad ones. Likewise, my equine dentist uses stocks on all horses, even though they are sedated...

[Lori B]

To me, if the seller didn't know, of course not. But when the purchaser ASKED the seller, the seller said, "Oh, we used stocks."

Seriously, who always uses stocks for worming? I have never heard of such a thing being standard practice for all horses at a barn. I've only ever SEEN one set of stocks, at a draft rescue barn, and have been to a dozen or so barns around my part of MD.

Since the seller clearly knew how tough this pony was to worm, but only said 'can be a pill to worm', that's the issue to me. If the pony is hard enough to worm that a relatively careful and experienced horse person is injured on first attempt, that is important, and it is the seller's responsibility to pass it along. Especially since, hello, I'll bet it wouldn't necessarily have wrecked the sale, but would have spared the purchaser all this unpleasantness.

[poltroon]

My veterinarian says his most serious on-the-job injury was from a foal.

I too would be extremely upset about the seller saying only "a pain" rather than "dangerous" to deworm. Yes, there are ways around it... but one needs to know it is that serious so the tube of wormer never comes out. The seller did everyone a substantial disservice here.

The pony might be OK again, or OK with another adult, or not. But I can certainly understand not wanting to continue with this pony.

If I were the seller I would take the pony back, and be glad that was the end of my liability. The seller is not legally obligated to do so... but if I were the seller, I would not be eager to explore the limits of where the law might fall or how much it might cost everyone to find out. Plus, I think the seller is far more able to find the pony a home, with the appropriate disclosures, than the buyer is.

[Huntertwo]

Sorry to hear that your friend was injured. But honestly, I'd wonder about her "experience" if she let a 12-hand pony get the better of her. I could knock one of them little suckers over.



:rolleyes: Well, I had one of those little ponies. This guy was probably even smaller (a rescue).

No one - not even the big burley blacksmiths could trim this pony's feet without him being tranqed.

One Blacksmith he put out of commission for a while. Poor guy threw out his back while trying to trim this pony as the pony was dragging him down the driveway.

Next Blacksmith and his assistant just laughed at my this pony
when I told him he was impossible to trim. They trimmed two hooves and finally gave up.

My pony was basically blacklisted...

So believe me, I doubt he could have been easily knocked over.;)

[lilblackhorse]

ok, so I now read they used stocks to worm the pony--while not cool, I still don't understand why you can't use feed thru.

And secondly, I have not heard at all if this pony has caused any other harm to the child or anyone else other than during this worming incident. If this was the only time--and granted, I understand the trust thing--then why all this drama? Use feed thru, continue to gain pony's trust and move on. Every horse, or pony, is capable of some nasty stuff if "cornered" or scared--obviously this is a hot button issue for this pony. Either do the feed thru, or you are going to have to "work thru" and train this pony to worm normally--both are a choice.


But if this pony has been good up until now, why all the fuss? And if you really can't get past the episode, then sell the pony with full disclosure and move on.....

[Giddy-up]

I would argue that since the "normal" way for the seller to deal with the pony was stocks and since most people don't have stocks,it was deceptive to just mention "she's a pill"....

now, if everyone in the world had and used stocks like the old days when we kept lots of draft work stock,then they would have been a standard of "custody,care and control" and I would not have felt bad for the buyer...

as it is, I think, they are an excessive/extreme measure for controlling a 12 hh pony for worming and yes it should have been highlighted even to the loss of the sale....

best

Oh I agree the seller did breeze over the topic, but they maybe felt they mentioned it, buyer didn't pursue it so seller moved on.

After 3 months I honestly don't know what the buyer expects the seller to do here. Partial refund? Take pony back? Don't understand quite what the buyer is looking for.

I agree with why not just feed it daily wormer? If pony is perfect for little rider in every other way I guess it's not something I would worry about.

[Tamara in TN]

I agree with why not just feed it daily wormer? If pony is perfect for little rider in every other way I guess it's not something I would worry about.

my thought is that an injury has occurred...and now, fair or not, the animal has a black mark against it...

I really really find it hard to believe that a pony that is that streaky about worming is "practically perfect in every way"(to quote MP);)...and it is not only worming, but there are many other oral medicines that over the course of a normal animals life need to be given....

and is it just oral medicines or does it carry over into teeth and mouth handling....?? I guess I fall into the category of people who see these things as extensions of basic grooming done since the baby was small

and the standardized care and maintaince of most childrens ponies certainly does not include locking them in stocks to handle them...even here in draft mule country they are rare...but even then,thats to keep drafters from using farriers as walking canes and not much more....

as to what is expected from the seller...dunno...but if one should "avoid the appearance of evil" as a business,I don't know that they are doing a very good job

best

[sketcher]

I'm trying to visualize how a horse or pony can strike out sideways.

I have no problem picturing a pony doing this, whether ther rear and twist so that they can strike in a diffreent direction or whatever.

I used to have a mare that would purposely lean over and throw herself on you to avoid shots. It was like she was trying to roll on you but more violent, she led with her shoulder then tried to go down on you and she meant business. I have never seen a horse behave like that to avoid a situation..there is always a first.

[poltroon]

I agree with why not just feed it daily wormer? If pony is perfect for little rider in every other way I guess it's not something I would worry about.

My issue would be that it attacked this adult and had to be pulled off. I'm left wondering what else the pony might react to in that way. If the pony had struck out and run off, I would not feel the same concern.

Someone who had had the pony for a while previously would not have the same baggage with it as the person who was hurt, and would probably be better able to evaluate how to avoid putting a pony in that kind of situation again.

[Go Fish]

I have no problem picturing a pony doing this, whether ther rear and twist so that they can strike in a diffreent direction or whatever.

I used to have a mare that would purposely lean over and throw herself on you to avoid shots. It was like she was trying to roll on you but more violent, she led with her shoulder then tried to go down on you and she meant business. I have never seen a horse behave like that to avoid a situation..there is always a first.

Yes, but if a horse is standing straight up, they can't strike out sideways.

[trubandloki]

Yes, but if a horse is standing straight up, they can't strike out sideways.

It sounds like the helper was not really helping much (if they do not know if the pony reared up or what). So I am guessing is was more the pony twisted some than actually struck out to the side.

Just guessing though....

[SuperSTB]

Everyone makes mistakes from time to time and I'm thinking how new owner went about handling new pony was one such time of a mistake. She probably, after 3 months, felt a little too comfortable around pony and didn't quite think through what "a bit of a pill to worm" could have meant. Ego and body bruised as a result. It happens.

As a mom, I understand the concern over kids being around pony. It's not pony's fault, it's not sellers fault, it's not new owners fault. It's a training issue that needs to be dealt with. Not a time to point blame but a time to deal with the issue appropriately.

Euthanasia or lawsuit is hardly appropriate.