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ACS
Apr. 22, 2009, 07:20 PM
Here’s my story: I am a junior hunter/eq rider and I train with two BNTs. This will be my first time buying a six figure horse; therefore, I have a few questions regarding the purchase and trial process.

I’ve ridden this horse about a dozen times thus far, and I really think he would be good for me. I’m looking for a horse to show this summer, and hopefully take me to the finals; otherwise, I will buy a more suitable horse for next years finals, and lease the horse I am now considering then. My trainers think he will be a great confidence builder and take me where I want to go.

Now that I’ve given you a little summary, here is the question. The owner of the horse is a past student of my trainers, who is now away at college. I’ve ridden with other trainers in the past, who’ve students have trialed a horse for free at a show in order to see how they perform together. This is exactly what I told my current trainers that I would like to do; however, they said no, and that I would have to put a down payment on the horse in order to trial him.

My theory is this. When you go to test drive a car, you don’t just drive it around the car dealer’s parking lot and if you would like to take it out on the road, the dealer asks you to put a down payment on the car in order to do so? That would be ridiculous! However, that is what I feel like is being asked of me. Further, the dealer gives you all the specs of the car, indicating its crash rating, MPG, etc. My trainer gives me all the horses show record, etc. However, I am not going to buy a car if I can’t drive it at 60 MPH on the highway. Nor, do I feel that I should buy a horse if I can’t see how it will perform with me at a show.

I would like to receive a reply from experienced sellers/buyers regarding how their go about trialing a horse.

TIA!

yellowbritches
Apr. 22, 2009, 07:27 PM
Car dealerships do want a copy of your driver's license and I think most also want proof of insurance, so try and bargain with them and say you'll take an insurance policy out on the horse (very common when horses are on trial). That way, if something happens, everyone's butts are covered.

IsolaBella09
Apr. 22, 2009, 07:31 PM
Definitely try and bargain and see if you can take the horse to a show. That is what I did with my current horse and I am so glad I was able to see how he was at shows. A horse I was supposed to lease that was nice at home was a stopper at shows. The woman who wanted me to lease him wanted me to sign a contract before I took him to a show. When I asked how he was at shows, she told me, "Uhm, well, he's pretty good but he gets funny at shows. You'll see." I later learned he was a dirty stopper. Thanks?

shawneeAcres
Apr. 22, 2009, 07:32 PM
If I let a horse go "on trial" (which is only under certain other conditions), then it is handled as a short term lease. The buyer pays me a fee to "try" the horse and if they subsequently buy it the fee goes towards purchase, otherwise it is non-refundable for ANY reason. This is for quite a lot of reasons, one is the horse is pulled off the market for the term of the trial and I expect to be reimbursed if they do not buy the horse and I lost potential buyers during the trial, second it separates the real buyers from the ones that just want a "free ride" (and trust me they are out there!), third I think it makes people REALLY think about whether this is the horse they want, if they are paying for the use of the animal they will think a little more about it before asking for a trial. It becomes a legal transaction with a contract, and I think there are less hard feelings on either side should the person not buy the horse.

MHM
Apr. 22, 2009, 07:36 PM
If you ride with two BNTs, do you think they will be swayed by the opinions of a bunch of strangers on the internet?

If you've ridden the horse 12 times, you've already sat on it 10 more times than most people who buy a horse.

Sometimes sellers will let a buyer show a horse, or pay a lease fee for a week or a month (including all costs plus insurance), but it's not a given.

heartinrye
Apr. 22, 2009, 07:37 PM
Wait you've ridden this horse a dozen times? That seems like a fair amount of time to figure out if you like or do not like this horse.
If its a proven horse, which I hope if you are paying 6 figures for it, it is atleast somewhat proven, then there should be no problem.
If this horse is at your trainers then they have obviously seen how it goes before at shows, and if you trust them then they should tell you if it is 'up' or not.

If this was my horse and you had already ridden it 12+ times I wouldn't let you show it on my dime. No way. I don't care how much you're willing to pay for it. If you can afford the horse, then you can afford to pay for 1 show and a down payment.

shawneeAcres
Apr. 22, 2009, 07:42 PM
FYI, your analogy to trying a car at a dealership makes no sense. They aren't asking for money for you to ride the horse there at their farm. You are asking to SHOW the horse with brings with it a pretty significant risk on the horse being injured etc. It is as if you asked the car dealer if you could take the car in a race, I think not without FULL payment!!

EqTrainer
Apr. 22, 2009, 07:42 PM
Wait you've ridden this horse a dozen times? That seems like a fair amount of time to figure out if you like or do not like this horse.
If its a proven horse, which I hope if you are paying 6 figures for it, it is atleast somewhat proven, then there should be no problem.
If this horse is at your trainers then they have obviously seen how it goes before at shows, and if you trust them then they should tell you if it is 'up' or not.

If this was my horse and you had already ridden it 12+ times I wouldn't let you show it on my dime. No way. I don't care how much you're willing to pay for it. If you can afford the horse, then you can afford to pay for 1 show and a down payment.


Exactly. I wouldn't even let you do some sort of down payment and show trial thing... you've ridden the horse TWELVE TIMES?!!!

It's not a car. If you want it, buy it. If not, don't. They just don't come w/guarantees. You could show him, have a great show and the next 4 suck. No telling. It's a horse.

Van Gogh
Apr. 22, 2009, 07:44 PM
I agree that you have already ridden it 10 more times than most buyers.

If you crash that car at 60 mph on the highway your insurance will pay for it..... if you crash that horse in the 3'6" equitation ring (or whatever you show it in) then who will pay- Insurance doesn't pay if the horse just doesn't want to jump around a 3'6" course anymore. They would pay if you physically injured it but not if you just ruined it or its reputation.

I would think that if you could pay to lease it for a fee to take to a show that you pay for before you buy it that would be more than fair.

Its funny- the more expensive the horse the less you will most likely be able to try it and do with it.

Mayaty02
Apr. 22, 2009, 07:54 PM
I would absolutely expect to pay a lease fee to ride it at a show. It's an animal, that can easily be injured, why should they take on all the risk?

mmnagf
Apr. 22, 2009, 07:57 PM
Dear OP,

I finished my jr years on runaway jumper ponies and 5yro wbs who jump out of their skin at different colored grass.... i would DIE to have the opportunity you are getting.. congrats :)

I dont think that your analogy was "that bad" it is just obviously difficult to compare a living irreplaceable animal with a $100,000 car. I agree with one of the posters to see if you can do a potential "show lease" and since u are doing eq, see if you can persuade them by taking him in a lower level eq class or even just a a schooling hunter class or something not at your height. If that doesn't fly with them, and I wouldn't be surprised if they said that it was too much of a risk, see if you can negotiate the ability to see him go at a show under another rider, possibly someone your age/strength/level from their barn, and then you get the opportunity to school him in the schooling ring or even a ticketed warmup.

Like the others said though, you have ridden him 12 times and your two BNTs wont risk you sitting on a dirty stopper or a horse with bad show manners since their name is attached to your performance.

Congrats again and continued good luck, and soak up your jr years!!!

snaffle635
Apr. 22, 2009, 08:08 PM
I don't think it's unreasonable to pay the seller to show the horse.

Look at it from their point of view. The horse is still for sale, and now on display for many people to see at the show. Suppose you don't get along with the horse at the show and he stops or crashes...in front of many potential buyers. Now you don't like the horse and the seller will have a challenge selling it.

In that situation, the seller is bearing a lot of risk and you aren't bearing any. By making a down payment, you're assuming some risk too.

Seems pretty reasonable to me.

Tollriffic
Apr. 22, 2009, 08:29 PM
Personally I think the trainers are being reasonable and you're already lucky to have gotten to try the horse that many times. If you've been on the horse 12 times you ought to have a good idea of whether or not you're a good match by now. In my experience buying a high priced horse is not significantly different from buying any other horse. You try the horse a couple of times, decide if its the right fit for you and then do a comprehensive pre-purchase exam. If the horse is worth that much it most likely has a proven record which ought to indicate how it will perform in the show ring. Asking to show on some sort of trial before purchasing the horse is something I have rarely seen.

When they send the horse to a show with you they are not only missing out on other potential buyers but also risking an injury while they still technically own it. If by some chance the horse was injured while you had it on trial what would you do? Not only would you probably end up not buying the horse but they would be left with an injured and unsellable horse in addition to vet bills. I would absolutely expect to pay some sort of deposit or short term lease fee if I were going to a show a horse on trial as well as any other expenses incurred.

ACS
Apr. 22, 2009, 08:50 PM
Thank you everyone for all your replies, and I respect your opinions.

I've thought this over more since reading your replies. I should of clarified myself further by saying that the owner wanted be to put down 50% of the purchase price, for which I would not do considering that I haven't done a PPE, nor would I do that kind of arrange without doing a credit check on the owner first, in the event that I don't go through with the purchase, especially in the uncertain economic times.

I think I will talk with my trainers tomorrow about a show lease - that sounds fair and reasonable. I was not asking for a freebie, as I would not do that if I was in the owner's position.

MelantheLLC
Apr. 22, 2009, 09:11 PM
Well I'll take a contrary view. (To some extent.)

If you are going to pay 6 figures for this horse, that's one heck of a lot of money. You deserve to feel that it's the right horse for you without any significant doubts.

Personally I would really ask myself how I feel about this horse. Have you seen it perform at shows? Is there a niggling feeling in there that's making you hesitate because you haven't showed it and your gut is telling you there might be a problem?

What's the sense you get from the BNT's about why they don't want to let you show the horse? Is it because they just "don't do that" or because they have insurance concerns, or they think you might not be serious or what is their reasoning? Just ask them in a straightforward courteous way. Say that this is one HECK of a lot of money and you don't want to make a mistake that you could regret--ask them what can be worked out so that you and the seller both feel comfortable with the trial and sale?

It may be that you can indeed arrange a short term, insured lease for a show. Or maybe you can put down a deposit, but be SURE in that case that you have a very good contract (there are good ones available online, or when this amount of money is involved you may want to consult an attorney with equine sales experience).

And if the sellers get all huffy about it, then keep in mind you can always walk away. This is a SIGNIFICANT amount of money, and a BIG DEAL. Particularly in this economic climate, let the sellers and trainers tell you what they may, it is a buyer's market.

And as my trainer says, "Take your time, there's always another horse."

Sadly, these days that's becoming more and more true.

Take your time, don't let anyone, BNT or not, railroad you or insinuate that you are being unreasonable. You are asking what you are asking for and offering what you are offering. Negotiations may be possible or they may not, but neither you nor the seller nor the BNT's are well served by getting their feelings hurt or their pride involved.

Just stick to what you know and what your gut tells you makes sense.

ETA: cross-posted with the OP's last post...sounds like a good plan. :)

ImJumpin
Apr. 22, 2009, 09:20 PM
Agree with others-- even for a low 5 figure horse, I don't think many people would just let you take it to a show. Sure, if the horse was already at the show, I can totally see letting you ride it in a class or two, but not taking it to a show for free.

Any why would you do a credit check on the horse owner? That part makes no sense to me.

Linny
Apr. 22, 2009, 09:39 PM
I'd be more interested in the BNT's opinions that those of the (probably very knowledgeable;)) crew on here.

I am guessing, that since the seller is affiliated with one of these BNTs that the horse has been available for you to ride through him/her? Asking for a 50% deposit just to show the horse seems a bit much. A "show lease" makes more sense. What is the opionion of your trainer as to the rationality of this seller's terms? If BNT is representing the horse they must be aware of the terms? I've never dealt with a six figure sale but I am sure that you've ridden this horse far more than most people do when horse shopping.
I'd offer to lease the horse for the show with insurance. Lease fees are non-refindable if you don't buy. If you do buy, they are credited to you on the purchase price.

mvp
Apr. 22, 2009, 09:42 PM
Is there a reason to think that this expensive "car of an eq horse" will be different at a show than he was the 12 times you rode him at home.

Sorry for the attitude. I didn't get there all by myself.

I can't understand all of the OP's ideas, but the credit check for the owner makes no sense. What does the buyer have to lose if the seller is 6 inches away from bankruptcy? I also can't imagine that the requested 50% deposit was intended to remain with the seller even if the horse failed a PPE. Finally, it seems to me that the OP thinks that her trainer is a bit of an adversary. That makes little sense, too. The trainer stands to make a great deal of money from a kid he/she can keep showing through the Eq finals. The trainer could be wrong about the horse and rider's match at shows, but I'm betting that the BNT is also betting that he/she is not. Why not trust everyone a bit more and also cover your a$$?

Wanderluster
Apr. 22, 2009, 09:49 PM
I'm also wondering about the point of doing a credit check on the seller, seems more likely that they should be doing one on you to see that you have the funds available to make such a large purchase.
In the past I have offered to lease a horse for it's annual fee plus insurance on the total value with the stipulation that the lease fee could be applied to the purchase price if the "buy option" was executed within a certain time frame. Happy shopping. :)

anchorsaway
Apr. 22, 2009, 09:50 PM
Here’s my story: I am a junior hunter/eq rider and I train with two BNTs. This will be my first time buying a six figure horse; therefore, I have a few questions regarding the purchase and trial process.

I’ve ridden this horse about a dozen times thus far, and I really think he would be good for me. I’m looking for a horse to show this summer, and hopefully take me to the finals; otherwise, I will buy a more suitable horse for next years finals, and lease the horse I am now considering then. My trainers think he will be a great confidence builder and take me where I want to go.

Now that I’ve given you a little summary, here is the question. The owner of the horse is a past student of my trainers, who is now away at college. I’ve ridden with other trainers in the past, who’ve students have trialed a horse for free at a show in order to see how they perform together. This is exactly what I told my current trainers that I would like to do; however, they said no, and that I would have to put a down payment on the horse in order to trial him.

My theory is this. When you go to test drive a car, you don’t just drive it around the car dealer’s parking lot and if you would like to take it out on the road, the dealer asks you to put a down payment on the car in order to do so? That would be ridiculous! However, that is what I feel like is being asked of me. Further, the dealer gives you all the specs of the car, indicating its crash rating, MPG, etc. My trainer gives me all the horses show record, etc. However, I am not going to buy a car if I can’t drive it at 60 MPH on the highway. Nor, do I feel that I should buy a horse if I can’t see how it will perform with me at a show.

I would like to receive a reply from experienced sellers/buyers regarding how their go about trialing a horse.

TIA!

I don't really see what the big deal is about making a 'down payment' to show....
There are quite a few people out there that won't even consider a trial period, payment or not. A 6 figure horse? You better believe I'd be asking for a 'down payment' before it leaves my property. Granted; if you should choose to buy it, I'd make a case that the money you paid for the trial go towards the initial purchase price.

It seems to me like your hmm'ing and haw'ing about this horse already, given the comment about finding another one for next year's finals.

goodmorning
Apr. 22, 2009, 10:01 PM
I don't get why a trainer that's essentially double-dipping wouldn't OK a paid show lease? And 50% down - unless you are taking it to a 'big' show - seems like a stiff lease fee. Surely you can't be expected to spend 75k for one horse show!?!

I spent most of my time at a barn where the 6-figure eq horse was the norm, and if it was an in-house transaction, a lease fee would be paid to horse show (and not necessarily credited towards the purchase because they could lease the horse out to someone else for the weekend and get the same $$ from another party). Honestly, the trainer who is prepping its rider for the Big Eq wants the best horse and rider combo - anything less isn't going to cut it. And, are you going to pay your trainer a commission on the lease and on the sale? If you have faith in your trainers ability to get you to the Big Eq ring (not easy to be competitive at the highest levels) than I tend to think that they know the best type of horse for you (and it sounds like you like the horse as well), and surely they would not set themselves up for failure and harm their reputation by selling a client a stopper/rusher/ or otherwise unsuitable horse. That's just not something an Eq trainer is ever hoping to do.

The tone of the OP is a bit interesting, I understand questioning things, but a credit check and this many questions -- are you secretly not happy and the trainer knows this -- trying to get a quick sale and commission before parting ways? I know thats a long-stretch but just thought I'd put it out there....if I'm totally off base just ignore me ;)

Sorry to throw so many ideas out there - wanted to approach this from a few sides...

MaritimeH/J
Apr. 22, 2009, 10:32 PM
...but if I was giving someone 50K for a weekend, and then decided I didn't want the horse, and expected to see the money ever again... I know politics should dictate that someone wouldn't just run out and spend some of that deposit money without knowing the sale of the horse was a sure thing, but there are crazies out there... a credit check to be sure she'd be safe to get her money back, or, go after her if necceasary for it, doesn't seem really extreme to me... maybe I'm just not used six figure horse sales.

However, in general, I agree a paid trial lease for the show is reasonable in any sort of transaction, from four figures to six, and some level of insurance as well...

heygirlhey33
Apr. 22, 2009, 11:18 PM
This is a totally different perspective. But here I go. I wouldn't expect to show a horse of that value before purchase, I didnt and I ride with a BNT. I also only flatted my horse once (extensively) to see about counter canter, lead changes etc. I jumped him twice (once 2'6" and once 3'-3"). He was an inbarn sale, and so my trainer was well aware that he has the scope to do the big stuff (as he showed in it) we were also reassured of him being competitive (even with his old amy owner). It sounds as if this horse is the same in that aspect.

Im amazed your trainer has let you ride soo many times. IMO you should know if somethings not working with you two as a pair. I knew I really liked my guy after the first ride (hes the hunter version of what your looking at). Then a week later we went to a show, after me jumping him 4 times ever. First day he proved his weight in gold, (basically we were showing in a torential down pour, that plus a brand new oiled set of reins= reins slipped out of my hands in the corner in one course and he jumped perfectly with me holding the reins on the buckle, next course (ring was getting quite sloppy) and he slipped in the middle of a line, reins go bye bye up his neck and i assumed he would stop, as we lost our distance completely he chips to a built 3'3" oxer with no reins and me hugging his neck, and he pops right over). but the second day of said show, we got really hyped up in the schooling ring ( a trainers dog kept running into the warm up ring, we went in, he refused to walk by this hay bale, halfway down the ring after navigating an extra circle in we went around, then in the under-saddle he started out with his head up like a giraffe, and as soon as the call to trot came, off he went like a shot, got him back, and he spooked 3 more times (minor). Then jr eq on the flat he attempted to run out the ingate. Of course I was extremely upset, my brand new horse had been awful, and i was stuck with him (this was at the time). If I hadn't allready owned him, I dont think I would have been all for buying him for what he cost. But that occurrence has never repeated itself, at all, and I feel like it wont again. So making a judgment on purchasing a horse based on his performance at one show isnt a good idea, especially after theres been no obvious problems after a few rides (especially 12). I would be filled with regret if I hadnt kept my horse, as nothing could ever make me regret buying him, and hes my best friend (along with the fact hes been champion or reserve every time out since that show).

Id just go with your trainer's belief on this one. Good luck with this new horse.

3Dogs
Apr. 22, 2009, 11:35 PM
6 figures? BNT trainers not driving deal? Young junior in the hot seat? Spelling not so good?

This story does not compute !

(long day, posts like this apt to make me crazy :lol:)

MHM
Apr. 22, 2009, 11:42 PM
Spelling not so good?



Now that you mention it, what is "trialing"?

I've heard of "trying" a horse, or taking a horse "on trial" (with lease fee or deposit). But "trialing"? Is that a regional thing? ;)

HARROLDhasmyheart
Apr. 22, 2009, 11:50 PM
Now that you mention it, what is "trialing"?

I've heard of "trying" a horse, or taking a horse "on trial" (with lease fee or deposit). But "trialing"? Is that a regional thing? ;)

Maybe "trialing" is a combination of "trying," "trial," and "trailering?" Some strange activity that involves putting the horse in a trailer, taking it somewhere, and then doing something with it. :lol:

But in all seriousness, I do not think that it is strange of the seller to ask for some sort of a deposit for you to take the horse to a show. I also do not think that a credit check on the SELLER is necessary...as a previous poster mentioned, it shouldn't matter if they are near bankruptcy, just that YOU have the money to pay for the horse. While 50% of the purchase price may be a bit excessive, I think to expect to take the horse to a show for free would be, quite frankly, ridiculous. Say that-god forbid-something happens to the beastie at the show? You are not still going to pay 6 figures for a horse that can't show, and yet the owner would end up with nothing AND a broken horse.

Additionally, if you've already tried the horse 12 or so times, I would think that you and your trainer(s) would have a pretty good idea of whether or not it is a fit. Granted horses perform differently in the show ring than at home, but at the same time...this many trial rides seems a bit excessive/out of the ordinary. Is the current owner taking it to a show, that you could perhaps do a few classes during? Could some sort of compromise be reached?

Also, if it's a 6 figure horse that you want to do the juniors and Eq on...it probably has an extensive show record, or at least somewhat of a record. And I would think that you'd have seen it at shows, etc. I know that watching a horse go is obviously not the same thing as riding it, but all of those factors, combined with your extensive test riding, should add up to somewhat of an idea if it is the right horse or not.

Good luck.

Foxtrot's
Apr. 23, 2009, 12:46 AM
If someone is selling a six figure horse you would think they would bend over backwards to make the buyer happy. These kind of buyers do not come by every day. If they have nothing to hide, there should be a meeting ground somewhere. Also, some posts here think that twelve rides is over the top - if she appears serious and wants that many tries and there are not other buyers lining up behind her, why not? This isn't chump change here. Trainers know that selling a horse is work.

silver2
Apr. 23, 2009, 04:04 AM
At that level it's very common to try the horse at a show. Sometimes the horses even go to shows on spec without a specific trial lined up hoping that someone will be interested and try and buy the horse at the show (although that is less common with eq horses). I would find it weird that you were specifically not allowed to try the horse in a show situation myself.

I would sure as hell set up an escrow account and have an iron clad contract before I put down $50K. No way would the seller or agent be in possession of the deposit money.

btw, "trialing" is not a word.

3eme
Apr. 23, 2009, 06:42 AM
I'm wondering if the laws in the States are anything like they are over here. Probably not too likely, but here goes my suggestion anyway.

Where I live, if you purchase a horse the law stipulates that you have 8 days after purchase to change your mind, no questions asked and the seller is obligated to refund you and take the horse back. (of course, i imagine if you injure or kill the horse there are probably some protections....but I am talking about typical situations....) The laws here are very buyer friendly and strict towards sellers. This is why when you, as a seller, sell a horse you spend your first 8 days crossing your fingers.

I have actually (recently) exercised this right very recently as a purchaser. Hubby purchased me a fabulous jumper, I jumped a few times (even very big fences) and everything went great. Then my husband got on him and we discovered that he had the dirtiest stop EVER. A little investigation into his past revealed that he indeed has a "history". While the seller had been forthcoming with us about the horse before the purchase, there was such a "fit" between me and the horse that we decided to buy him anyway. So even though we had some prior knowledge that the horse was a bit tricky, the seller took him back, no problem.

This legislation is relatively recent, but I am wondering if there is something like that effective in the USA. If so, then if you have the desire and the money, why not just purchase the horse (especially since your BNT likes it) ?

Mav226
Apr. 23, 2009, 07:36 AM
It makes no sense to do a credit check on the seller. It is intrusive, and, to be honest, annoying and unnecessary.

There are other ways to legally safeguard your deposit if the horse fails the PPE. For a horse that is $100,000+ you should be doing this through a respected contract attorney--and he or she will direct you how to put the funds in escrow or a trust of some sort.

spaghetti legs
Apr. 23, 2009, 07:48 AM
It makes no sense to do a credit check on the seller. It is intrusive, and, to be honest, annoying and unnecessary.

There are other ways to legally safeguard your deposit if the horse fails the PPE. For a horse that is $100,000+ you should be doing this through a respected contract attorney--and he or she will direct you how to put the funds in escrow or a trust of some sort.

Agreed 100%.

eggbutt
Apr. 23, 2009, 07:55 AM
6 figures? BNT trainers not driving deal? Young junior in the hot seat? Spelling not so good?

This story does not compute !

(long day, posts like this apt to make me crazy :lol:)


:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Sticking with the car analogy, this almost sounds like "tire-kicking" to me. You've tried this expensive horse 12 times and still haven't made up your mind? Really? Why not go ahead and do a PPE? That would at least show that you are relatively serious about this horse. The asking price for this horse is six figures and you've never seen it show or know of anyone who has? Really?

I'm really thoroughly confused with the OP's thoughts about this. And, by the way, no buyer of any horse of mine has any right or authority to check my credit! I think you've got that backwards.....the seller should be checking your parents' credit!

Queen Latisha
Apr. 23, 2009, 08:04 AM
I don't understand why the OP can't show the horse.
The trainer is representing both parties involved, why not let the horse show for a small lease fee?
I was in this position and was able to show the horse under my trainers guidance, with no lease fee.
The horse was wonderful at the show and I made an offer to buy him.
I would never put down 1/2 the sale price, until a PPE was done and I was sure the horse was healthy.
It is up to the seller to make these decisions, but if she wants the horse sold, it's best to be a little flexible.:D

arbor hill
Apr. 23, 2009, 08:05 AM
Owner of 6 figure horse is taking a substantial risk by having prospect show it at a horse show. They should be compensated for that risk by paying a non-refundable lease fee for the weekend. Has buyer not seen the horse go around at a show with prior owner in the barn?

adhock
Apr. 23, 2009, 08:15 AM
After 12 tries, what more are you going to find out about the horse at a show, especially if your trainers have had experience with him/her? Do you just want to see if you can win on the horse? If you want to know how the horse performs, find out from others about his past performance in the ring. Watch videos. Sounds like you might be better off leasing a horse and getting more experience--that will help you make a subsequent decision. Also sounds like you're driving your trainers crazy. If you'd asked to do this after one trial, it would be one thing. But after 12 rides (I think someone has been very generous with you), it's time to trust the people who are guiding you or opt out. FYI--a few years ago a well-known trainer opted to let someone try a top pony we were selling at a show. Pony flipped due to a nervous, inexperienced rider. Kid was okay, pony--well, not so much. That was a risk that wasn't worth taking.

ACS
Apr. 23, 2009, 08:19 AM
No, I have not seen it go at a show. The owner is away at college, and the horse has been at my trainer's barn since the owner started college last fall, hence the reason why I've ridden him around a dozen times, and the reason why I am a little timid why it hasn't sold by now.

I have no problem paying a non-refundable lease fee for the show, but not 50% of the purchase price unless the money goes into an escrow account held by my attorneys.

As I said previously, I will talk this over with my trainers.

Thank you all for your replies. Further, since most of the replies are just agreeing with others and repeating the same opinions, there is no further need to continue with this thread.

magnolia73
Apr. 23, 2009, 08:32 AM
Well- you have your answer- they want $50k, and you don't want to pay $50k to ride the horse in a show.

I think you should move on if it bothers you. Call the people- tell them "Sorry, don't feel comfortable paying you 50% down to show, and don't feel comfortable buying without showing. Thanks for your time, best of luck. If you'd consider a lease fee of $XXX to show the horse, let me know."

Life doesn't always pan out.

RockinHorse
Apr. 23, 2009, 08:32 AM
I’ve ridden this horse about a dozen times thus far, and I really think he would be good for me. I’m looking for a horse to show this summer, and hopefully take me to the finals; otherwise, I will buy a more suitable horse for next years finals, and lease the horse I am now considering then. My trainers think he will be a great confidence builder and take me where I want to go.

Now that I’ve given you a little summary, here is the question. The owner of the horse is a past student of my trainers, who is now away at college. I’ve ridden with other trainers in the past, who’ve students have trialed a horse for free at a show in order to see how they perform together. This is exactly what I told my current trainers that I would like to do; however, they said no, and that I would have to put a down payment on the horse in order to trial him.


TIA!

Sounds to me like the trainer is concerned you are just tire kicking and is trying to politely tell you to "fish or cut bait".

This horse is supposed to be a confidence builder for you, there fore I assume you are inexperienced at what you are buying the horse to do or have had some bad experiences in the past which have blown your confidence. As a seller, you are not the type of buyer I would let take my horse to a show for free.

ponies123
Apr. 23, 2009, 08:52 AM
I think I'm more or less confused on the way you state some things you're saying. Stuff like "my attorney" or you're not willing to put down the 50%. If you're a junior who still has at least one more year of finals after this season you are, at best, a young 17. Definitely a minor.

Your parents or whoever must be the ones handling the actual purchasing, and so I'd assume its up to them. I'd have them talk to the trainers and them talk to an attorney, since I assume you don't have a lot of knowledge on how the whole thing works. Also 12 times to ride a horse is more than enough. Ask the owner/your trainers for some video footage of the horse at the show. If he's truly a 6 figure horse there is video footage SOMEWHERE. A 6 figure horse has proven himself to at least be competitive in good company at big shows, and to do that he had to have gone to many... Ask for video footage, look up the show record, etc. but you need to trust your trainer and make up your mind after 12 times riding the horse!!

RV
Apr. 23, 2009, 09:00 AM
Sounds to me like the trainer is concerned you are just tire kicking and is trying to politely tell you to "fish or cut bait".

This horse is supposed to be a confidence builder for you, there fore I assume you are inexperienced at what you are buying the horse to do or have had some bad experiences in the past which have blown your confidence. As a seller, you are not the type of buyer I would let take my horse to a show for free.

Exactly, and that's why they haven't offered to let you lease the horse for the show but rather are insisting on a 50% deposit - and no need for an escrow account, that's towards the purchase, if you don't purchase you don't get that back.

Sounds like these sellers feel like they are being put through the ringer. And have you considered that the horse hasn't sold because of the market, not through any fault of his own? I hope the sellers are in a financial situation where they can tell you enough is enough and move on.

As a seller, at this point (12 rides, insisting on a credit check, whining on a BB) I wouldn't be sticking to the 50% deposit, no lease option, and telling the BNT representing my horse that the buyer needs to figure it out, I'm not providing a nice lesson horse for the kid to ride on a regular basis while they're searching for a horse. There has to be some thread here along the lines of "A tire kicker has ridden my horse 12 times and now is balking at a deposit to show my nice, proven, 6-figure horse".

S A McKee
Apr. 23, 2009, 09:03 AM
No, I have not seen it go at a show. The owner is away at college, and the horse has been at my trainer's barn since the owner started college last fall, hence the reason why I've ridden him around a dozen times, and the reason why I am a little timid why it hasn't sold by now.

I have no problem paying a non-refundable lease fee for the show, but not 50% of the purchase price unless the money goes into an escrow account held by my attorneys.

As I said previously, I will talk this over with my trainers.

Thank you all for your replies. Further, since most of the replies are just agreeing with others and repeating the same opinions, there is no further need to continue with this thread.

Keep in mind that your trainer is not a neutral 3rd party in this deal. If the horse is at your barn and he is representing the seller he/she will be collecting a double commission. Perhaps in the 30K range if it's a 6 figure deal.
You say you have a show record for the horse. Who gave you that info, the trainer? Or did you get the records from USEF?

WorthTheWait95
Apr. 23, 2009, 09:09 AM
I didn't read all these posts but I've bought and sold a few 6 figure horses as a junior (by buying/selling tons of greenies in order to help afford it!).

I've never heard of such a lengthy trial process before! When we bought expensive horses we would go out to the farm, sit on the horse, decide if we liked it, vet it then write the check if he passed. End of story.

I think you need to make a decision.

WorthTheWait95
Apr. 23, 2009, 09:10 AM
Keep in mind that your trainer is not a neutral 3rd party in this deal. If the horse is at your barn and he is representing the seller he/she will be collecting a double commission. Perhaps in the 30K range if it's a 6 figure deal.
You say you have a show record for the horse. Who gave you that info, the trainer? Or did you get the records from USEF?

Isn't it illegal to collect a double commission? I remember some trainers getting in trouble for that when I was a kid but can't remember the circumstances...

justdandy
Apr. 23, 2009, 09:11 AM
ACS - you said you're a junior, but yet you keep saying "I", "me", "my." Where are your parents in this deal? You keep saying that YOU have talked with your trainers and that YOU'RE going to talk with your trainers further. Maybe if your parents talked to the BNT's they would take you more seriously? Just a thought.

Hunter Mom
Apr. 23, 2009, 09:11 AM
Stupid question, but by wanting to "take the horse to a show for free" - free for whom? Who (buyer or seller) would be paying entry fees, etc.? I was going to take a horse on trial, and take him to a show. That would've been all my expense.

Mara
Apr. 23, 2009, 09:28 AM
Isn't it illegal to collect a double commission? I remember some trainers getting in trouble for that when I was a kid but can't remember the circumstances...

I don't believe it's illegal as long as there's disclosure. I could be wrong.

pwynnnorman
Apr. 23, 2009, 09:53 AM
Also, if it's a 6 figure horse that you want to do the juniors and Eq on...it probably has an extensive show record, or at least somewhat of a record. And I would think that you'd have seen it at shows, etc. I know that watching a horse go is obviously not the same thing as riding it, but all of those factors, combined with your extensive test riding, should add up to somewhat of an idea if it is the right horse or not.

Good luck.

I thought this was going to be an entertaining train wreck thread, but it turned out to be very interesting and thoughtful. Other than that compliment to participants, I've got nothing to add except that HARROLDhasmyheart seems to have summarized the context pretty fully, IMO.

merrygoround
Apr. 23, 2009, 10:06 AM
You are busy arguing the lease price, which seems to be a healthy portion of the purchase price, and is the prorogative of the owner to ask, no matter who gets a commission. Because that is what you are requesting, a one day lease of a horse you have alrady tried a dozen times.

With that expensive of a lease, would it not be common sense to do a PPE or in this case a PLE.? Should permission to do one be refused, I'd walk.

findeight
Apr. 23, 2009, 10:17 AM
Maybe the horse is not going to be at that show and the seller does not want to pay for you to have a free trial at a show they did not plan on attending?

Those free trials are very common BUT on horses that are already at the show. if you want to try one at a show that is not going to be there already, you would need to pay for everything plus put a deposit or 1 week lease on the horse. That is also common.

At any rate, it's whatever the seller wants. It's their horse and there is no entitlement to free trials, even on expensive show horses where trials themselves are common.

magicteetango
Apr. 23, 2009, 10:35 AM
A credit check for the seller? That's hilarious and no way I'd ever let it happen, myself. I've never heard of such a thing.

What do you pay your BNTs for? Their knowledge. These people's daughter is in college, and they really don't need the haggling ie a credit check. You're already talking like you feel taken for a ride here.

If your gut instinct says don't go for it, don't. Your gut instinct is your most valuable tool, at all times. Why not ask if you can lease this horse in general? You seem like you're really not ready to make a commitment to this horse.

But keep in mind, horses are horses. Anything can happen. I know you've got big competitive goals, but don't forget why you started riding to begin with. Because you love horses. Even if a horse isn't going to be the horse you go to Finals with, make sure any horse you get is a horse you're going to love to ride.

kellyb
Apr. 23, 2009, 11:06 AM
Now that you mention it, what is "trialing"?

I've heard of "trying" a horse, or taking a horse "on trial" (with lease fee or deposit). But "trialing"? Is that a regional thing? ;)

Hunter people turn nouns into verbs all the time ;)

i.e. "I took a lesson today" vs. "I lessoned today"....thusly, "I want to take a horse on trial" vs. "I want to trial him".

at least that's what I made of it :lol:

kellyb
Apr. 23, 2009, 11:13 AM
My thoughts on this thread is that the seller is nicely trying to tell you to get lost (with the $50k lease fee). You've ridden it 12 times already. Why haven't you PPE'd yet? They probably think you are just a tire kicker since you haven't continued on a normal time line for buying a horse (ride it once, think about it, ride it again, PPE, negotiate, purchase).

Either that or they don't want the hassle/risk of having the horse leave the property for a show...and possibly be injured, etc. Or maybe they are afraid you just want a mount for a show. How many stories have we read on here where people take a horse to a show for a trial, hand over the reins at the end of the day and just say thanks??

ExJumper
Apr. 23, 2009, 11:23 AM
Thank you all for your replies. Further, since most of the replies are just agreeing with others and repeating the same opinions, there is no further need to continue with this thread.

Ahh... The number of times I've seen someone request that...

EqTrainer
Apr. 23, 2009, 11:24 AM
Exactly, and that's why they haven't offered to let you lease the horse for the show but rather are insisting on a 50% deposit - and no need for an escrow account, that's towards the purchase, if you don't purchase you don't get that back.

Sounds like these sellers feel like they are being put through the ringer. And have you considered that the horse hasn't sold because of the market, not through any fault of his own? I hope the sellers are in a financial situation where they can tell you enough is enough and move on.

As a seller, at this point (12 rides, insisting on a credit check, whining on a BB) I wouldn't be sticking to the 50% deposit, no lease option, and telling the BNT representing my horse that the buyer needs to figure it out, I'm not providing a nice lesson horse for the kid to ride on a regular basis while they're searching for a horse. There has to be some thread here along the lines of "A tire kicker has ridden my horse 12 times and now is balking at a deposit to show my nice, proven, 6-figure horse".


:lol::lol: ROFTLMAO.. but yes, oh yes, here is the sellers point of view neatly described.

MHM
Apr. 23, 2009, 11:57 AM
Hunter people turn nouns into verbs all the time ;)

i.e. "I took a lesson today" vs. "I lessoned today"....thusly, "I want to take a horse on trial" vs. "I want to trial him".

at least that's what I made of it :lol:
Oh, believe me, I'm familiar with that tendency. I've just never heard this particular usage before this thread. :lol:

Also, advice is a thing one needs, not advise, which is a verb.

magnolia73
Apr. 23, 2009, 12:15 PM
I don't know- I think the OP is not unreasonable in her desire to see how a $100,000 horse goes at a horse show. This is not some $2000 local horse. $100,000 is a substantial amount of money. I can see passing on a horse that is fine at home, but a bit nervous or needs a ton of prep or whatever at a show.

I realize she has ridden the horse 12 times.... but it sounds like he is in her barn. I could see that happening in that situation. If I could not ride my horse and a kid in my barn who might be interested rode her 12 times, I would not be upset unless it interfered with other people trials or was undoing training.

I mean, I assume right now it is a buyers market. To me, you'd want to do what it takes to get the horse sold. Is there no way to compromise- perhaps have the trainer show the horse with fees at the expense of the buyer? $50,000 down is pretty considerable and given the way the horse world functions.... what if the horse gets to the show and has a total meltdown leaving the buyer out $50k? It's not like the kid wants to run at Rolex- just want to see what a $100,000 horse does at a show.

That said, it is really weird to do the credit check. Escrow makes sense.... but the credit check is a little mistrustful and tacky.

Punkie
Apr. 23, 2009, 12:26 PM
Where are your parents/guardians/the people who are legally able to sign contracts for this horse?

I've bought and sold a fair share of investment horses, some of which were purchased before I was 18. In 90% of the cases, the purchase money was 100% in my name, but this didn't preclude me from needing a signature from a party over the age of 18...in my case, my folks. If you are still a junior and are buying a 6 figure horse, I can only assume that SOMEONE who is legally responsible for you is handling the funds. It is not impossible that this is your money (and I will forthright say that I was able to afford a high five figures horse completely by myself before I was 18), but I'm guessing that it's your parents/guardians/people who are legally able to sign contracts for this horse who are putting up the money. Therefore it is not you who should be talking to your trainer or the sellers or making any further arrangements, it's *them*.

Ultimately, it's a very simple question. Do you want the horse or not? You've sat on him 12 times. I have never sat on a horse more than 5 times before a purchase and unless I'm trying something that just so happens to be at a show I'm already attending, I've NEVER taken a potential lease or purchase to a show just to "try it out"...and I've had upwards of 35 horses.

If the horse is worth six figures now and he continues to be the same horse you've now ridden so many times, it's likely he won't decrease in value in the next 6 months to a year (pending disaster). If you don't end up liking him, sell him.

This has me pretty confused:

I’m looking for a horse to show this summer, and hopefully take me to the finals; otherwise, I will buy a more suitable horse for next years finals, and lease the horse I am now considering then. My trainers think he will be a great confidence builder and take me where I want to go.

For six figures, if he's not perfectly suitable for finals, this year OR next, MOVE ON. When I purchase a horse with a price tag higher than my collection of cars, you'd better believe that he/she will be incredible enough to replace that Ferrari that I've been dreaming of :lol:.

If you can lease him, then why not just do that? If you're SO worried about how he'll be at a show, ask to lease him for a few months with an option to buy. I have a friend doing just this right now. They are paying a suitable lease fee for the value of the horse and if they are satisfied with him in 3 months, they will send a check for the rest of the purchase price. If not, they will return the horse and it will be no different than any other short-term lease.

This just doesn't add up for me either.

eggbutt
Apr. 23, 2009, 12:28 PM
No, I have not seen it go at a show. The owner is away at college, and the horse has been at my trainer's barn since the owner started college last fall, hence the reason why I've ridden him around a dozen times, and the reason why I am a little timid why it hasn't sold by now.




I'm beginning to wonder if this thread isn't a dream hoax by a youthful poster! We're in a sinking economy dear where spending six figures on a horse isn't an option for as many as it used to be! :no::no:

I agree with others....where are your parents in all of this???

Aubreyyy
Apr. 23, 2009, 12:49 PM
I'm confused-

You're a junior, and calling the shots on a 100k+ horse purchase?

??????

Am I missing something?

eggbutt
Apr. 23, 2009, 12:58 PM
Wait, I get it!! When you said "six figures" you actually are referring to $9,999.99 or less, right? :lol::lol:

Ok, snark over! Just had to laugh for a minute!! ;);)

eclipse
Apr. 23, 2009, 01:48 PM
I smell a troll! no way would parent's let their CHILD call all of these shots on a $100,000+ horse & why hasn't she been back to defend & show us a PICTURE with the NAME of this horse (maybe one of the posters has seen it go and could tell you what it's like)...although your BNT's should know & you should take their advise (or leave if you don't trust it!)

Tini Sea Soldier
Apr. 23, 2009, 02:07 PM
Hmmm... this is truly bizarre... as I think back and really any horse/pony I have bought or sold has usually gone on trial for about 2 weeks and usually ended their trial by attending a horse show for final confirmation. If it wasn't with my trainer, I would usually request some sort of deposit... but usually it's 5-10% of the price... NOT 50%!!!

My only suspicion (and someone may have mentioned this... as I only got through page 1)... is that perhaps these people are nervous based on the scenario that happened with Springsteen's grand prix horse... the whole debacle about them backing out when horse didn't perform at show... etc, etc. It's possible that they (either owners or BNT's) have had similar circumstances and therefore, just don't like bringing their sale horses off property without more of a commitment.

The greater question, is that if the BNT's are familiar with this horse, and have a relationship with owners... why can't they vouch for your riding enough to be able to take it off property without half-buying it? Maybe that's something that needs to be considered...

Besides, if I was riding it already for 12+ days... and was just waiting for a horse show to be the deciding factor... I'd probably due the PPE before sinking showing $$$ into a horse that could potentially have some significant issues.

findeight
Apr. 23, 2009, 02:09 PM
Don't be so sure some parents don't let their daughter tell them where and how to spend that kind of money. Seen it.

Suspect there is more to this story then was shared. As in seller is tired of seeing sale horse used as a lesson horse and will not provide free show mount and this particular set of parents is balking but won't flat out tell the kid no.

But she's gone anyway.

Mara
Apr. 23, 2009, 02:12 PM
Don't be so sure some parents don't let their daughter tell them where and how to spend that kind of money. Seen it.

Suspect there is more to this story then was shared. As in seller is tired of seeing sale horse used as a lesson horse and will not provide free show mount and this particular set of parents is balking but won't flat out tell the kid no.

But she's gone anyway.

. . .or just lurking to see what she started.

findeight
Apr. 23, 2009, 02:33 PM
I just think it's an ambitious kid. No harm, no foul.

And there is only a little over 4 months left to qualify for most of this years Finals in the major medals. Kind of late to get started trying to qualify on a new horse. Not impossible but she'd be waaaaay behind the rest of them at it since last fall.

Mara
Apr. 23, 2009, 02:50 PM
Yep. If it isn't the real thing, then no harm done. She didn't get mean, name names, or start potentially harmful gossip.

If it is the real McCoy, I hope she finds the eq horse of her dreams.

ACS
Apr. 23, 2009, 03:18 PM
I'd just like to clarify myself one last time.

1. I posted earlier this morning and now today in the afternoon - how could I be trolling if I haven't been home?

2. My parents are involved with my purchase; however I am also using my own money to purchase the horse, and this is a big decision.

3. Why have I rode this horse around 12 times? I hack for my trainers, 3-6 horses each day, and the horse I am considering is on my list of horses to hack.

4. I simply wished to hear the experiences of sellers/buyers regarding a horse trial. I certainly did not want to start a thread where posters would start name calling and yelling out their opinions - instead of experiences. A sincere thank you to the posters who truly understood my post and responded accordingly.

Hopefully a forum MOD will come and close/lock this thread so the negativity doesn't continue.

Giddy-up
Apr. 23, 2009, 03:30 PM
You've ridden the horse a bunch of times. You are lucky. I know people who won't even allow horses out on trial--you have to come to their barn each time to try it.

Your trainer's are quite familiar with said horse as it belongs to a current client. Obviously they must like the horse if they want it to remain in their barn.

I say either schedule a PPE & buy it or let it go. The sellers have already stated their stipulatons for you to show the horse. They have their reasons & whatever they may be they have them. I am doubtful they are going to change their minds (we wanted a $50K down payment, but ok we'll take a $1000 weekend show lease fee instead), but I guess it doesn't hurt to ask. Ask your trainer & feel out what they have to say about it.

meupatdoes
Apr. 23, 2009, 03:38 PM
I’ve ridden with other trainers in the past, who’ve students have trialed a horse for free at a show in order to see how they perform together. This is exactly what I told my current trainers that I would like to do; however, they said no, and that I would have to put a down payment on the horse in order to trial him.

That is completely reasonable on the seller's part.

You have already ridden the horse 12 times. (!!)

It has a record, so you know it performs at horse shows.

If you want to ride someone else's six figure horse at a show, you should not be expecting to do so for free. At the very least, a show lease fee (put toward the purchase price if you buy), complete with you covering insurance, would be reasonable.

However, they would not be out of line to ask you to have the horse vetted prior to this trial, so that the 'passing the vet' question is taken care of before the horse goes on trial, and put down a non refundable deposit (again put toward the purchase price if you buy) so that you demonstrate that you are not just asking for a nice free ride at a show.

Basically, if you buy the horse, that payment just goes toward the purchase price. But if you decide not to buy the horse, the owner should still be compensated for the use of the very nice horse that you got while you were riding around their six digit horse at a show.

eggbutt
Apr. 23, 2009, 03:40 PM
If this horse is:

- already at a barn you board/work at
- has been for sale for some time
- the owner is away at college

Why don't you attempt a lease agreement on the horse rather than a free trial? You say you already have an attorney so drawing up a lease agreement that benefits everyone shouldn't be a problem. You could even add a clause that if the horse was unsuitable at show situations the lease could be terminated.

I don't think anyone is trying to be negative toward you but perhaps more information could have been given to obtain more valid responses. You could have even given the name of the horse and/or trainer to see if anyone is familiar with the horse to give you first hand information.

used2
Apr. 23, 2009, 04:10 PM
This can't be real.

If you can't figure it out in 12 rides it is probably not within your skill set to make the decision. Another ride at home, at a show or on the moon won't help. The BNTs know you and know the horse listen to them. That is why we go the trainers and pay commissions, they are the experts use their knowledge.

If you can afford to look at a horse with a 6 figure price tag you can pony up a reasonable show lease fee.

If you were wasting my time like you have been with this seller I'd want 50% too!

soloudinhere
Apr. 23, 2009, 04:11 PM
While it's possibly true, I find it hard to believe a 17 year old has a minimum of $100,000 of "their" money, plus commissions so a minimum of $120,000 to spend that is actually theirs, plus their own attorney.

But whatever, you've gotten some advice which can be summed up as "fish or cut bait."

Divine Comedy
Apr. 23, 2009, 04:32 PM
I have to admit that I quickly read through this entire thread and I am not impressed with those who responded. It seems to me that the OP came to this forum looking for answers to her questions. When the first round of replies said that she shouldn't expect to show the horse for free, she decided she would be fine to pay a lease fee but didn't want to pay 50% of the final 6 figure price as a down payment. After she stated this, people continued to say she was unreasonable in wanting to show the horse for free. Obviously, people were skipping to the end of the thread without reading the OP's response. Then people began making fun of her. Sure, checking the credit of the seller is a bit out there, but as the OP stated, this is her first time to buy such an expensive horse and she is obviously unsure as to the process. That is why she came here, to get answers. Instead, by the end of the thread, she was being called a troll. She responded to the "troll" allegations in a calm, mature manner and yet people are still becoming snarkier and snarkier. Maybe jealousy is playing a part (and God knows that most of us can't afford a 6 figure horse), but I don't think there is any reason to be judging a junior who is obviously doing her best to do this purchase correctly and trying to learn all she can about the process while doing it.

All in all, I am not impressed with the attitudes of most people posting on this thread. I will not be coming back to read this thread again, so there is no need to attack me either, as I will not see it. Just not impressed overall.

Koniucha
Apr. 23, 2009, 05:02 PM
I have to admit that I quickly read through this entire thread and I am not impressed with those who responded. It seems to me that the OP came to this forum looking for answers to her questions. When the first round of replies said that she shouldn't expect to show the horse for free, she decided she would be fine to pay a lease fee but didn't want to pay 50% of the final 6 figure price as a down payment. After she stated this, people continued to say she was unreasonable in wanting to show the horse for free. Obviously, people were skipping to the end of the thread without reading the OP's response. Then people began making fun of her. Sure, checking the credit of the seller is a bit out there, but as the OP stated, this is her first time to buy such an expensive horse and she is obviously unsure as to the process. That is why she came here, to get answers. Instead, by the end of the thread, she was being called a troll. She responded to the "troll" allegations in a calm, mature manner and yet people are still becoming snarkier and snarkier. Maybe jealousy is playing a part (and God knows that most of us can't afford a 6 figure horse), but I don't think there is any reason to be judging a junior who is obviously doing her best to do this purchase correctly and trying to learn all she can about the process while doing it.

All in all, I am not impressed with the attitudes of most people posting on this thread. I will not be coming back to read this thread again, so there is no need to attack me either, as I will not see it. Just not impressed overall.

This is exactly why I am mostly a lurker on this forum and rarely post. If you are not part of the 'cool kids' on this board or don't have a million posts than of course you are a troll, time waster, blah, blah. If I ever have a question I certainly avoid asking it here.

MelantheLLC
Apr. 23, 2009, 05:28 PM
I have big kudos to the OP for not being a wishy-washy naive first-time buyer who accepts whatever the "authorities" tell her is the way things are supposed to be done.

That's just how a whole lot of first time homebuyers got into these toxic mortgages. You sit across from a real estate agent who chuckles and ridicules you for asking questions or suggesting things in your interest that aren't in their interest. Been there, done that, walked out on the deal. But a lot of people don't walk out because they listen to the "experts" instead of their own instincts and fall for the "it's always done this way, you are being unreasonable" line. They don't have the confidence to question because they are new to this. So good for you OP. You may or may not get what you want, and you may or may not take the horse on their terms, but at least you asked the questions that seemed important to you.

There are always two sides to a deal. Of course the seller has concerns, but so does the buyer. That the horse is worth the asking price is PURELY THEORETICAL. The horse is worth what someone will pay. However, the check the buyer writes is TOTAL REALITY. Therefore the buyer is in the position of due diligence, and nobody will feel sorry for her if it turns out the horse is a maniacal PITA at shows--they'll say, "Why didn't you find this out before you paid so much for it?"

Horsetrading is pure trading--you cut the deal both parties are willing to cut. Nobody will offer something if you don't ask for it. The best that can happen is the seller agrees, the worst that can happen is the seller/agent pulls the "I'm insulted, you must be an idiot" act. Sticks and stones, etc.

This is just psychological gamesmanship in the honorable tradition of horsetrading. This thread is a good exercise in learning how sellers will try to talk the buyer out of stuff. Nothing wrong with it, just realize that there's no Right and Wrong here, it's just maneuvering to cut a deal or not. Ridicule and disdain are gamesmanship, not germaine to the deal. So don't let some of the responses bother you, use them to predict what the seller might say and be ready with your answer.

If there are people out there who are happy to drop 100k or more on a horse they've only sat on once, that's their business. You don't have to make that deal just because that's the deal they made.

If I've got 100k+ to spend on a horse and some seller wants to politely brush me off cause I'm causing them too much trouble (or I might find out something about the horse they'd prefer I didn't know), that's their choice. Maybe some of the people in this thread have their checkbooks ready and will buy it instead. My view is, there's always another horse.

dab
Apr. 23, 2009, 06:49 PM
OP: Have you ever seen the horse at a show? Has anyone ever indicated that he's difficult to manage at a show? Have you asked if you could school him at a show rather than show him?

I've been able to negotiate getting a trial ride at a local show with the seller's agent trailering the horse -- The seller's agent made it clear this was an extraordinary request, and I made it clear that I wasn't willing to buy the horse if it didn't happen --

How long have you been riding with your trainer? Have you seen evidence that they match clients with horses that suit their needs?

I might offer to pay a 1-day/1-week lease fee to try the horse at a show if the seller were that concerned that I might be a tire kicker -- I'd want my trainer to toss in shipping and coaching me through a trial ride -- You're likely to blow over $1K on a PPE for a horse in this price range -- I think investing a few hundred in a mini-lease would be worth it -- I wouldn't pay a nonrefundable deposit if I weren't sure I wanted the horse ... but that's me --

We're in a buyer's market at the moment -- You don't want to waste the buyer's time, but if you're not sure, keep looking or keep negotiating --

Horseymama
Apr. 23, 2009, 07:44 PM
I completely agree with MelantheLLC. You are the buyer, negotiating is part of the game. And there is always another horse.

I also agree with those that say to trust your gut. If you don't think he is the right horse, negotiate a lease and wait for the right horse to come to you.

And don't take what others say to you on this BB personally. Who cares if they're being negative? No matter where you go in life, what office you work in, what barn you ride at, or what school you go to, there will always be somebody to step up and give you some sh*t. :) We're all just human, after all! (How's that for some deep life philosophy!:D)

You sound very mature for your age. I'm not even that mature and I'm at least double that!

springer
Apr. 23, 2009, 07:45 PM
A Hummer H3 comes with a 60 month, 100,000 mile guarantee. Buy one of those! And you can call a Hummer an "IT".
In case you aren't aware, horses come in "he" or "she" models. They are living, breathing animals who have feelings and occassionally make mistakes. This poster makes me sick. It sounds like she's buying a piece of property, not an animal.

Koniucha
Apr. 23, 2009, 07:56 PM
A Hummer H3 comes with a 60 month, 100,000 mile guarantee. Buy one of those! And you can call a Hummer an "IT".
In case you aren't aware, horses come in "he" or "she" models. They are living, breathing animals who have feelings and occassionally make mistakes. This poster makes me sick. It sounds like she's buying a piece of property, not an animal.

This is a ridiculous post! I did not get this feeling at all.

Pirateer
Apr. 23, 2009, 08:09 PM
A Hummer H3 comes with a 60 month, 100,000 mile guarantee. Buy one of those! And you can call a Hummer an "IT".
In case you aren't aware, horses come in "he" or "she" models. They are living, breathing animals who have feelings and occassionally make mistakes. This poster makes me sick. It sounds like she's buying a piece of property, not an animal.

Ooh, caught a case of "My Friend Flicka Syndrome", have we?

springer
Apr. 23, 2009, 08:19 PM
This is a ridiculous post! I did not get this feeling at all.

Really? In what posts here do you hear her refer to the horse as anything other than an "it"? Does he have a name? I guess when you have this much money it's really just a piece of property, right?

Dazednconfused
Apr. 23, 2009, 08:28 PM
Really? In what posts here do you hear her refer to the horse as anything other than an "it"? Does he have a name? I guess when you have this much money it's really just a piece of property, right?

Um - no. More likely the OP is a relatively intelligent person and knows how small a world it is, and a) doesn't want to let on that she's asking about pricing/trials/vetting online, or b) ID the horse! :yes:

Pirateer
Apr. 23, 2009, 08:29 PM
Maybe she's trying to you know, not cause lots of inbarn attention to herself?

Edit:

What DazedNConfused said :)

Mav226
Apr. 23, 2009, 08:45 PM
Really? In what posts here do you hear her refer to the horse as anything other than an "it"? Does he have a name? I guess when you have this much money it's really just a piece of property, right?


This makes you sound petty, childish, jealous, and inexperienced in the horse world.

The OP was asking about purchase specifics. This doesn't require a picture or name. Despite her young age, she is obviously trying to be tactful in a potentially sticky situation. Although I may have done the trial/purchase differently, I applaud the OP for trying to look out for her own best interests in a situation where her trainer is representing both parties.

Horseymama
Apr. 23, 2009, 08:46 PM
Really? In what posts here do you hear her refer to the horse as anything other than an "it"? Does he have a name? I guess when you have this much money it's really just a piece of property, right?

What? I guess all people that have "that much" money are heartless, horrible, horse-hating, it-calling monsters.

This is the HORSE WORLD. Some people spend lots of MONEY. Just because they are spending it doesn't mean you have accuse them of being nasty.

:sigh:

EqTrainer
Apr. 23, 2009, 08:57 PM
I never got the vibe that the OP was a troll. I think she/he just doesn't know how things work when you are buying a horse, 6 figures or not. Everyone has to learn sometime!

pwynnnorman
Apr. 23, 2009, 09:39 PM
This can't be real.

If you can't figure it out in 12 rides it is probably not within your skill set to make the decision. Another ride at home, at a show or on the moon won't help.

Actually, I can think of a couple of reasons why the OP might not know enough about the horse even if she's ridden it 12 times. She said its on her hack list. How much do you learn about an Eq horse by hacking it? It's not like you can fool around with it, pushing buttons and stuff to see what it does. Everyone knows that's a big no-no when you're hacking out someone else's horse.

And one possibility is that the horse isn't a local horse either, so maybe it's been showing on another coast, so she hasn't been able to see it go in the flesh.

Lots of possibilities. Sad to see this go downhill. It was an interesting question. Why not just take the questions at face value instead of questioning motives?

lonewolf
Apr. 23, 2009, 10:37 PM
Often, I have found that people selling really expensive horses tend to put MORE limits on what the potential buyer can do, not less.

If I were a normal seller, I would find 12 rides to be excessive, and would begin to think that the potential 'buyer' is a tire kicker who is taking advantage of the opportunity for free rides. However, since in this case the buyer is also the exercise rider, it is understandable.

Still, you should not be asking to take the horse to a show unless you are almost certain you want to buy it (meaning: it would take a major disaster at the show to change your mind). I know that, if I were the seller, I would be extremely pissed off if someone took my horse to a show and then didn't purchase it for no apparent reason.

However, in this case it doesn't hurt to ask if you can take the horse to the show for a reasonable non-refundable lease fee (not 50% of the horse's purchase price!). If they do insist on a large deposit (refundable), then make sure the funds are held by a neutral third party, such as the trainer or an attorney.

I also think that the seller would feel a lot better if you scheduled the PPE. Preferably BEFORE the show. It will show the buyer that you are serious. If you absolutely can't get it done before the show, schedule it for the tuesday after.

Good luck! I'm sorry people are screaming troll and bringing up silly and unimportant things (like how the OP characterizes the horse's gender). I hope the deal goes well and you find a nice horse -- either this one or another.

hiddenlake
Apr. 23, 2009, 10:42 PM
I can't find in your posts where you say if you've actually JUMPED the horse or not.

If you've only hacked it (sorry springer, suck it up :rolleyes:) then the 50% is probably the sellers' way of saying they don't want you to buy the horse.

If you've jumped it enough to know the horse and are still kicking the tires, it could be the sellers' way of saying put up or shut up.

Or they could be really particular or difficult sellers and that's why the horse is still available.

I've sold horses in various price ranges but I've been far less flexible with the buyers that I wasn't really comfortable with. My guess is that if the sellers really wanted you to buy the horse and you really wanted to buy it, then both parties would be working more cooperatively toward that end even while protecting their interests.

It might be time to move on.

lonewolf
Apr. 23, 2009, 10:49 PM
I dunno, hiddenlake.

Whenever there is a thread on this board about selling horses, 99% of posters chime in saying that they would NEVER allow a horse out on trial at all, much less allow their horse to be shown. The standard number of rides allowed on a sale horse is 2. The OP is well past that.

I think the buyers probably feel that they are being taken for a ride. I KNOW that the OP isn't trying to do that; she is just trying to be careful and sure.

I still think that scheduling a PPE before the show is the way to go.

springer
Apr. 23, 2009, 11:10 PM
This makes you sound petty, childish, jealous, and inexperienced in the horse world.

The OP was asking about purchase specifics. This doesn't require a picture or name. Despite her young age, she is obviously trying to be tactful in a potentially sticky situation. Although I may have done the trial/purchase differently, I applaud the OP for trying to look out for her own best interests in a situation where her trainer is representing both parties.

Petty and childish, maybe. Jealous? No. I moved to Montana from South Florida to get away from people like this. I now live in paradise, in my log cabin by a creek with my horses. Jealous? I don't think so. Inexperienced, maybe. But if developing that kind of callousness toward horses results from experience, I don't want it.
I suppose referring to horses as an "it" is to be cool in the "elite" horsey world. I'm so very impressed.

Dazednconfused
Apr. 23, 2009, 11:57 PM
Petty and childish, maybe. Jealous? No. I moved to Montana from South Florida to get away from people like this. I now live in paradise, in my log cabin by a creek with my horses. Jealous? I don't think so. Inexperienced, maybe. But if developing that kind of callousness toward horses results from experience, I don't want it.
I suppose referring to horses as an "it" is to be cool in the "elite" horsey world. I'm so very impressed.

Um, No. Again. Use the brain you were born with. It's a CYA measure, obviously.

If you're buying a 6 figure horse and you're not sure if your trainer or seller is taking you for a ride, avoiding details like the horse's gender is a darn smart thing to do. Lots of people read these boards - people you'd never guess - like, the trainer or owner for example.

Candle
Apr. 24, 2009, 12:33 AM
I'd be VERY cautious if I knew the trainer was representing both the seller and the buyer. JMHO. Doesn't matter the price range.

EMR
Apr. 24, 2009, 12:59 AM
Um, No. Again. Use the brain you were born with. It's a CYA measure, obviously.

If you're buying a 6 figure horse and you're not sure if your trainer or seller is taking you for a ride, avoiding details like the horse's gender is a darn smart thing to do. Lots of people read these boards - people you'd never guess - like, the trainer or owner for example.
I might be on the bottom end of the bell curve but aren't about 1/2 the horses in the world a "he" and the other half a "she?" If someone can guess the name of all parties concerned with just the gender of the horse then they are psychic! There is more than 1 mare out in the big EQ ring. I think that this is a more a matter of respect for the horse and whether or not the op is objectifying the horse.

Dazednconfused
Apr. 24, 2009, 01:34 AM
I might be on the bottom end of the bell curve but aren't about 1/2 the horses in the world a "he" and the other half a "she?" If someone can guess the name of all parties concerned with just the gender of the horse then they are psychic! There is more than 1 mare out in the big EQ ring. I think that this is a more a matter of respect for the horse and whether or not the op is objectifying the horse.

If you know the situation from the details posted so far, it wouldn't be terribly hard to figure it out. So why make it easier? Why assume the worst of the OP?? You don't know him or her, how are you even qualified to make the assessment that she is "objectifying the horse"?! :confused::lol:

unclewiggly
Apr. 24, 2009, 07:09 AM
Regardless of teh price.
After 12 rides, either you can pay for a "Lesson" on the horse, lease it for 1 show w/ a non-refundable deposit + insurance including loss of use" or take a chance vet n buy.
Even in Europe its try me once, come back for a second ride but on the third trip to the farm show me the money or don't call.
OP do you perhaps just excersise this horse and that qualifies as experiancing the horse but not properly trying the horse under real conditions? ir oushing its buttons, testing the limits, making horse your ride?
What ever your not getting any sympathy here, should not have mentioned price tag size, and yes there are limits regardless of price. Caution on trainer conflicts here. Would hire independent to evaluate the situation since you obviously can afford it.

Instant Karma
Apr. 24, 2009, 07:29 AM
There is more than 1 mare out in the big EQ ring. I think that this is a more a matter of respect for the horse and whether or not the op is objectifying the horse.

OMG:lol:

witherbee
Apr. 24, 2009, 07:47 AM
A lot of people call thier horse "it" in writing, but it does not mean that they don't care about the horse. I think that is a callous assumption on your part Springer. The OP has not shown one way or another whether she is objectifying the horse IMO, so I guess we'll just have to disagree on that.

As for the OPs questions, I think it's fine that she wants to show the horse and agree with most that there need to be safeguards for both the buyer and the seller in order to do that. I also think 1/2 the purchase price sounds excessive and would personally ask for insurance and a lease fee in order to let her lease the horse. I think a credit sheck on the seller is overkill and I would refuse it if I were the seller. Serves no purpose if contracts are done.

I also think people are making way too much out of the 12 rides in this case - a hack at your "home" barn is not showing and, as the OP has stated several times, she hacks the horse as part of her regular string for the trainer. If this were a sale horse at another barn, I would agree that asking to try the horse 12 times would be excessive and as the seller I would see it as a major red flag.

I guess I would either lease the horse for the season as it sounds like there are doubts that this horse will be a long term horse for the OP (per her statement that it may not be a Finals horse). If I was planning to buy the horse, I would PPE it BEFORE showing it - why bother going to the show if the horse is not going to pass a vet? I guess you could look at that the opposite way and say "why PPE before showing as you wouldn't buy the horse if it doesn't show well", but I just think the PPE would be before the show on my list. Oops - I guess I better go tell my poor unloved horses that I am callous and am objectifying them since I used "it" instead of "he" or "she"....

Best of luck to the OP!

justdandy
Apr. 24, 2009, 08:48 AM
I guess...according to EMR and springer....that I don't love my gelding. There are times I call him a turd, hemerrhoid, a$$hole...you get the picture. Sometimes he can be a dork. DAMMIT...there I go again. I really must not love him.:rolleyes:

ETA: I'm sure those names really hurt his feelings. I should be more respectful. I'm such a bad mom!

Mara
Apr. 24, 2009, 09:07 AM
I'm guilty of assuming the OP was making it up (not necessarily the "t" word). The only reason is because I found it rather strange that a kid 16-17 years old has full control over the purchase, is forward-thinking enough to understand escrow/credit checks, and has an attorney. I was a pretty smart kid (and I hope I am still a pretty smart adult), but I have to say that anything in my teenaged life involving large transfers of capital was handled by my parents, since it was their $$$.

But there's precedence: I think it was Maggie McAlary (with help from mom) who paid for most of her show career by upgrading and selling horses. It can be done, and the OP could conceivably have a decent bank account of her own if she's done the same.

My apologies to the OP, should she return.

Midge
Apr. 24, 2009, 09:17 AM
I am less inclined to think the seller is wanting a 50% lease fee and more inclined to think they want a 50% deposit before the horse goes to the show. I think they want to make sure the buyer is serious about the horse and if something happened to it, they would at least have some cash in hand.

When I was buying and selling cheap horses, I sold them with a one week return policy, as long as the horse came back the same way it left. Sometimes specific things were outlined in the contract, sometimes not. The more expensive the horse, the less likely I was to allow things. So, if someone wanted to take it to a show to try, they could buy it and return it after the show, assuming nothing went wrong.

If I were selling this horse, it would not go to a horse show, unless I was absolutely desperate to sell and this was the very last thing before the PPE.

findeight
Apr. 24, 2009, 09:30 AM
Oh come on...referring to the horse as "it" protects everybody from guessing who this OP is and the sellers. I do it too. Actually quite a good way to stay anonymous.

OP may well have her own money-it's called a trust fund. Some very nice people actually have them and they have attorneys who oversee both the fund and it's use. It's kind of a different world from where most of us live but don't infer anything about the person from that. they just have money, that's all. Otherwise, same as the rest of us.

But as far as the original question, unless a horse is already going to be at the show, either as a regular exhibitor or brought as a non showing sale horse specifically for trials, any prospective buyer will have to pay some kind of deposit or lease fee. OP has probably trialed or seen others try horses at shows at no charge (except entry fee if they take it in a class), may not have realized they were already there and always intended to be there.

I suspect the sellers here just don't want the horse to go on trial at all and that's an individual choice they may make. They certainly don't want to foot the bill for a show they never wanted the horse to go to. Hence the rather large deposit.

Like I said earlier, it's kind of late in the year to get started with a transition kind of horse you are only planning on needing for a year or so anyway. If this one does not strike you as perfect or you still have doubts, I'd just wait. Lots of them out there.

There is alot of good information on here, sometimes you have to sift through things and some people jump to all kinds of unwarranted conclusions. Comes with the territory.

Newbies should not be scared. Most of us do not bite.

Roxy SM
Apr. 24, 2009, 10:17 AM
I also agree that 12 times is a lot, although if you were just hacking it all those times because it needs to be ridden then that is understandable. But as far as jumping it, one of my trainers is a BNR and we usually only sit on them twice. We are often go to a show to try horses since you can try lots in one place. I did show 2 horses I was considering once since we were at the show and both sellers trust that my trainer wouldn't put me on their horses in the ring if I was going to mess them up. IMO if you truly ride with 2 BNTs, and you trust them, then none of this should be an issue. All that being said, it is definitely a buyer's market today and there are probably a ton of nice horses in your price range for sale. So if you aren't sure about this one, there is no reason not to pass on it and find another. Good luck!

BAC
Apr. 24, 2009, 10:29 AM
I suppose referring to horses as an "it" is to be cool in the "elite" horsey world. I'm so very impressed.

Sorry to be rude but this is an ignorant statement and the OP referring to the horse in question as "it" has nothing to do with her affection for said horse. :no:

foursocks
Apr. 24, 2009, 10:49 AM
I now have this image of a large horse sitting in front of "its" desk looking at the computer screen and wiping away tears.

"She....she....she called me IT!!!!" :(:(:(:(:(:(:(

The horse doesn't care how it is represented on a bb. It's a HORSE. It cares about being treated kindly and sympathetically, fed and watered and kept comfortable. Some need more personal interaction, some don't care, some want less- but none of them actually have any idea about computers, writing, or being called it, Alpo, handsome, dumbass, jerkface, or bo-bo- all of which are things I call my own horse. He sees me as a carrot dispenser and some time irritant, not as someone calling him names on a bb. :confused:

Dun Ciarain
Apr. 24, 2009, 11:14 AM
Actually, I can think of a couple of reasons why the OP might not know enough about the horse even if she's ridden it 12 times. She said its on her hack list. How much do you learn about an Eq horse by hacking it? It's not like you can fool around with it, pushing buttons and stuff to see what it does. Everyone knows that's a big no-no when you're hacking out someone else's horse.

And one possibility is that the horse isn't a local horse either, so maybe it's been showing on another coast, so she hasn't been able to see it go in the flesh.

The horse belongs to a client of her trainers, so it is local, so the OP has had the opportunity to see the horse go.

There is a big difference between taking a horse on trial from outside of the barn and looking at a horse already in the barn. There is also a big difference in what you can and can't do with a trial horse based on the clout of your trainers.

I think that people tend to through the BNT moniker around too much. The OP says she currently rides with 2 BNTs??? If that is true, that is part of the problem here. It would also be very, very rare. Does the OP have a horse right now and with which trainer. All of the answers make a difference.

If the OP already knows the horse since it is at her barn, I think a lease fee to try at a show is more than appropriate. I would offer a couple thousand to show the horse for a week long show and pay all show expenses. After all, 2k is only 2% on top of $100k.

jse
Apr. 24, 2009, 12:06 PM
I dunno, I'm on the side of the fence that says if you've ridden the horse 12 times and are thinking about purchasing, then you've ridden it 11 times too many. Having sold a few horses, it drives me insane when people want to come back, and come back, and come back to try a horse. I respect that they want to be sure of what they are investing their money in, especially a person buying a horse at this caliber, in which case I understand maybe 2 or 3 times, but I feel that you would be wasting my time if you were to come anymore.
Now from what I understand this girl has an advantage in deciding to buy this horse seeing as it's in the barn she is at.
As far as showing it, no. RISK is all I have to say. Insurance or none, lease fee or none...too many things could go wrong. Many people are different however, and I respect that, but I personally just couldn't do it.

Mel0309
Apr. 24, 2009, 12:22 PM
I think that people tend to through the BNT moniker around too much. The OP says she currently rides with 2 BNTs??? If that is true, that is part of the problem here. It would also be very, very rare. Does the OP have a horse right now and with which trainer. All of the answers make a difference.

I would agree with this. Unless it is two BNT working in the same barn like:

Christina Schulsemeyer and Bobby Braswell

Don Stewart and Bibby Farmer

All the trainers at Heritage Farm

etc.

Sounds like she has gotten a lot of advice - some good, some not so good. In the end I think it is something she needs to discuss both with her parents and her trainer(s).

Calhoun
Apr. 24, 2009, 12:59 PM
Ok, I didn't read every post, only the first page. To the OP, forget the old rules of buying and selling horses, in this economy and at a 6 figure price, ask for the moon! If you want to try the horse at a show to see if you click . . . then ask the seller. No reasonable seller in this rotten economy is going to mind spending $500 for you to take the horse to a show which may result in a big check (to pay for his daughter's tuition). Times are tough, ask a real estate agent, better yet walk in Sak's Fifth Ave and tell them you $10,000 to spend and see the store manager come running with a a bottle of champagne! Both your BNT trainers need to get over themselves and do whatever it takes to make sure you like the horse.

Good luck with the horse!

Pirateer
Apr. 24, 2009, 01:45 PM
I dunno, I'm on the side of the fence that says if you've ridden the horse 12 times and are thinking about purchasing, then you've ridden it 11 times too many. Having sold a few horses, it drives me insane when people want to come back, and come back, and come back to try a horse.

Read for comprehension- the OP has been hacking the horse for the trainers. 12 times of WTC in a circle is NOT any true "test ride" for a $$$ horse.

jse
Apr. 24, 2009, 02:41 PM
Read for comprehension- the OP has been hacking the horse for the trainers. 12 times of WTC in a circle is NOT any true "test ride" for a $$$ horse.

That's your opinion, I personally think that if you hack a horse around W/T/C once then you should get a general feel and understanding of a horse. Maybe a second time to see how consistent the horse is. And if she's interested, then why don't they just let her "test" ride this horse as she wishes at home, allow her to jump it to see if they are compatible over fences at home? It's that easy, you don't need to go to a show to figure that out. As I said, it's not like she has to drive some crazy distance to see the horse, he's right there. Anyway, this girl seems to have gotten a good feel from the horse already and the trainers have also stated (according to her) that it would be a good confidence builder, so obviously she's ridden it enough to know:

I’ve ridden this horse about a dozen times thus far, and I really think he would be good for me. I’m looking for a horse to show this summer, and hopefully take me to the finals; otherwise, I will buy a more suitable horse for next years finals, and lease the horse I am now considering then. My trainers think he will be a great confidence builder and take me where I want to go.

Totally not trying to be demeaning or argumentative in any way. I realize that everyone has their own opinion and even their own way of going about business. I was just saying that I for one would never let a prospective buyer show my $$$ horse.
While I'm aware that plenty of people do allow this, I also know of plenty of people who have sold horses of this caliber and not many of them have allowed them to show with their prospective buyers. Maybe coming to see it a few times to make sure that they are investing in something that will prove itself, maybe take a lesson or two on it with their trainer, but not many of them will allow someone to show the horse. But that's just them, you or someone else may do it differently. I for one won't take that risk.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
Apr. 25, 2009, 08:08 PM
To the OP-

I was in a similar situation to yours when I (my father) bought my horse 6 years ago. I felt overly involved in the situation because my dad didn't know anything about horses whatsoever, he was just writing the check. So basically, whatever was within our budget was ok, as long as I thought it was the right horse. At this point, I was 16.

I ended up falling in love with my horse, who happened to be a consignment horse who'd been in my trainer's barn for about 9 months. He was coming 6 years old and in the mid 5-figure price range, so not quite as expensive as what you're dealing with, but not "cheap" for a greenie, either. It happened that I had ridden him about 15 times because I hacked him for my trainer over the course of about 2 months while I was looking at other horses outside of my barn. This could be why you've ridden this horse so many times.

Anyway, after spending some time looking at other horses with no connection to my trainer other than through his own professional contacts, I decided I really loved Jake. The problem was, because he was so green and I hadn't been able to jump him over a real, decorated course, I wanted to take him to a show. I discussed this as a possibility with my trainer, who had the courtesy to put me in touch with the horse's owner in order to work this out privately. This allowed me to feel confident that my trainer wasn't trying to pull something silly, like tacking a few thousand onto the horse's price. Especially considering that he (rightfully) made a double commission on the sale, I was grateful for this.

In the end, the owner and I (and my father) agreed that I would take the horse to an out-of-state rated show at which he would have been shown anyway due to him being a sales horse. My trainer was to do him in his "sales" division (pre-greens), and I would do him in "my" division (childrens). We agreed on a non-refundable deposit of 10% of the sales price. This was non-refundable regardless, but would be applied to his purchase price if we decided to purchase him after conducting a PPE with a vet of our choice.

The bottom line was, I needed to show this horse before I purchased him. He had no record to speak of, was fabulous at home, but very, very young (both mentally and physically). I was 99% sure he was the right horse at home, but needed to be sure he wasn't a mess at the show. It ended up working out fantastically because my trainer approached the deal in full disclosure of every penny he'd be making, and proved this through opening a great line of communication with the horse's owner.

If you are serious about buying this horse, it might be a good point of discussion as to whether all parties involved could have some type of "conference-call" style meeting. During this interaction, you can bring up your concerns regarding the horse, and express exactly why you'd like to show him before you buy him. Understand going in that you will be required to pay a fee for the use of the horse, and emphasize that you are willing to do so. Ask your trainer what a typical weekend lease would be for a horse of this caliber, and write a check. This way, money is being made regardless. The trainer will make a small commission, and the owner will have a lease fee paid, even if you don't buy the horse. Being prepared to write a check will mean that money is exchanging hands, and alleviate the "tire-kicker" fears.

BUT- if your trainer is unwilling to connect you with the seller, I would be hesitant to conduct any business with him/her in the future. Too often in this industry, the problems buyers have purchasing agent-represented horses are related to a total lack of communication between themselves and the sellers. Trainers who are hesitant or unwilling to disclose sellers' contact information usually have a shady reason for doing this- they become the middle-men who can represent the deal as they see fit, regardless of the buyer/seller side of the equation.

Good luck finding a horse. It's not easy, but it will happen- sooner or later, depending on how you try to remedy this particular situation.

findeight
Apr. 26, 2009, 08:36 AM
No reasonable seller in this rotten economy is going to mind spending $500 for you to take the horse to a show which may result in a big check (to pay for his daughter's tuition).


No, and if the kind of show the OP routinely attends, needs this level horse for and this horse is priced to compete at only cost $500, these sellers might do just that.

If they wanted it at a show they would be shipping it to shows as a sale horse...for about 1500 to 2k a week.

My own barn runs both local and AA strings, 3 bought and one sold at decent prices in the last 90 days or so, not incuding any leases. They are still moving.

meupatdoes
Apr. 26, 2009, 09:55 PM
Ok, I didn't read every post, only the first page. To the OP, forget the old rules of buying and selling horses, in this economy and at a 6 figure price, ask for the moon! If you want to try the horse at a show to see if you click . . . then ask the seller. No reasonable seller in this rotten economy is going to mind spending $500 for you to take the horse to a show which may result in a big check (to pay for his daughter's tuition). Times are tough, ask a real estate agent, better yet walk in Sak's Fifth Ave and tell them you $10,000 to spend and see the store manager come running with a a bottle of champagne! Both your BNT trainers need to get over themselves and do whatever it takes to make sure you like the horse.

Good luck with the horse!

What an obnoxious attitude.

As if sellers are supposed to foot the horse showing bill of every 'potential buyer' who walks in the door.

Why, yes of course. The sellers should send anyone who 'is interested' to the Hampton Classic and get them a table in the VIP tent while they're at it.
:rolleyes:

Wow, if I had wised up to this little trick I could have had me a junior career.

Foxtrot's
Apr. 26, 2009, 10:56 PM
If the buyer was genuine I would definitely want to know that the horse could stand up to the riguors of a long show on hard ground. It is being purchased as a Show horse.

soloudinhere
Apr. 27, 2009, 07:12 AM
If the buyer was genuine I would definitely want to know that the horse could stand up to the riguors of a long show on hard ground. It is being purchased as a Show horse.

A show horse with a record that has actively shown in the past. The horse can clearly go to a horse show.

The problem is that this buyer is semi-delusional. Wanting a credit check before paying a deposit? Seriously?

If she has a trust fund, great, but that's still someone else's money she's spending...she didn't earn that. Not that it matters, but that's what I meant when I said I found it hard to believe a 17 year old had $120k of their own money. It's still her parents or grandparents or whoever's money, just put in her name.

She can't even sign a sales contract, she's under 18. There have to be parents in this picture somewhere, even if she has an attorney.

I don't think she should need to take a horse with an established show record that is in-barn to a horse show. And certainly the seller shouldn't let her do it without paying for the horse, and for the show.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
Apr. 27, 2009, 09:19 AM
A show horse with a record that has actively shown in the past. The horse can clearly go to a horse show.

The problem is that this buyer is semi-delusional. Wanting a credit check before paying a deposit? Seriously?

If she has a trust fund, great, but that's still someone else's money she's spending...she didn't earn that. Not that it matters, but that's what I meant when I said I found it hard to believe a 17 year old had $120k of their own money. It's still her parents or grandparents or whoever's money, just put in her name.

She can't even sign a sales contract, she's under 18. There have to be parents in this picture somewhere, even if she has an attorney.

I don't think she should need to take a horse with an established show record that is in-barn to a horse show. And certainly the seller shouldn't let her do it without paying for the horse, and for the show.

Would you feel differently if the horse hadn't been to any shows since the owner left for college? I don't have the time/the desire to read back through all this crap, but as far as I could tell, the kid hadn't ridden the horse at a show, only at home. Proven show record or not, after sitting a barn for a few months/years (depending on when owner left for school), I'd want to see it at a horse show. That being said, if it's a true "sales" horse, it should be attending shows anyway, so what's the big deal if the kid jumps on it for a division? To think of it, I'm a bit confused as to why this horse isn't going to shows right now if it's a sales horse meant to be marketed to potential buyers? That seems pretty backwards.

I can understand both points of view here, as it is a lot to ask of a seller to allow their horse to be used by a stranger. But the bottom line is, this is pretty par for the course when one is selling high quality goods- especially considering the amount of time the horse has been in the barn for sale (a good while since this kid has had the opportunity to hack it 12 times for her trainer). If I were the seller, tire kicker or not, I'd leap at the chance to possibly get the horse sold, particularly to a kid in my barn.

I, too, find it strange that a 17 year old has $100k ++ to spend on a horse, but not being involved in the intimate details of this transaction, cannot judge up from down at this point. Additionally, regardless of whether it's her parents' money, her dog's money, or monopoly money, the only thing that matters in this situation is that no one's writing a check. Make's no difference who's financing the deal.

scotchie
Apr. 27, 2009, 03:12 PM
If the horse belongs to someone who rode with your trainer than wouldn't there be clear, recent memory of how this horse performed away from home? There should be first hand knowledge of whether he needed to be LTD, needed time to settle in,etc. I don't see the point of you insisting on trying him off the farm and risk SOMEONE ELSE'S valuable animal. As others have said- sitting on him 12 times as a HUGE deal- that's wonderful! Since the horse is in the barn and was with your trainer you have great knowledge of what he's done up till now (with no little white lies) and you have ridden him quite a bit. You really need to get off the fence. Perhaps that is what the owner is saying.

If you have gone back 11 times to ride him I think you must really like him! Best of luck!

MissKatie
Apr. 27, 2009, 09:57 PM
This is the most negative, unhelpful, meanest group of people I have ever seen!

MintHillFarm
Apr. 28, 2009, 12:31 PM
Personally I think the trainers are being reasonable and you're already lucky to have gotten to try the horse that many times. If you've been on the horse 12 times you ought to have a good idea of whether or not you're a good match by now. In my experience buying a high priced horse is not significantly different from buying any other horse. You try the horse a couple of times, decide if its the right fit for you and then do a comprehensive pre-purchase exam. If the horse is worth that much it most likely has a proven record which ought to indicate how it will perform in the show ring. Asking to show on some sort of trial before purchasing the horse is something I have rarely seen.

When they send the horse to a show with you they are not only missing out on other potential buyers but also risking an injury while they still technically own it. If by some chance the horse was injured while you had it on trial what would you do? Not only would you probably end up not buying the horse but they would be left with an injured and unsellable horse in addition to vet bills. I would absolutely expect to pay some sort of deposit or short term lease fee if I were going to a show a horse on trial as well as any other expenses incurred.

A dozen times is a lot. As this thread has indicated, the down side for the owner is on many levels. Frankly at this price, the horse's reputation and performance has dictated his price (I would guess anyway) and if you have gotten along with him well and he has a very good show record, ready to go. If he were mine, I likely would not allow the horse to show unless you paid for him...

eggbutt
Apr. 28, 2009, 01:37 PM
This is the most negative, unhelpful, meanest group of people I have ever seen!

Why?

If you were selling a $100,000+ horse what would you allow a 17 year old prospective buyer do with your horse? What would you expect to cover any loss? What would you give permission to? Just curious.....I don't think anyone has been mean on this thread, only very blunt and curious.

Koniucha
Apr. 28, 2009, 05:20 PM
Why?

If you were selling a $100,000+ horse what would you allow a 17 year old prospective buyer do with your horse? What would you expect to cover any loss? What would you give permission to? Just curious.....I don't think anyone has been mean on this thread, only very blunt and curious.

How do you know how involved or not involved her parents are? To assume that they are not involved is silly. Maybe the parents are not horse savvy so they themselves would not post a question here.

I agree with MissKatie. This group is mean and very unhelpful.

Guin
Apr. 28, 2009, 05:47 PM
Are you kidding? This has been a completely civil and useful thread. You want mean, read some of the trainwrecks! :lol::lol:

kbbarn
Apr. 28, 2009, 06:22 PM
I’ve ridden this horse about a dozen times thus far, and I really think he would be good for me. My trainers think he will be a great confidence builder and take me where I want to go.


TIA!

I am confused ( nothing unusual ) and I admit, have not read every post.
But the OP does call the horse a 'he' in the original post. So not sure what all the 'it' fuss is about. Later on I see the horse was called 'it' but from the start, the horse is a 'he'. Sounds like the OP is just asking for some advice.

MHM
Apr. 28, 2009, 09:20 PM
So... what happened?

OP, how about an update??

isltime
Apr. 29, 2009, 02:04 PM
you have ridden the horse twelve times. it sounds like your a tire kicker. if they will allow you to show the horse, paying a lease fee, be grateful. personally, if i was selling one of my horses, you would have never ridden him/her 12 times, before you bought the horse. the most i have ever ridden any of my horses before purchasing was twice. either you know what you want or not. i say pay the lease fee to show the horse and apply it to the purchase.

Foxtrot's
Apr. 29, 2009, 05:11 PM
Geeze I hate text-speak. icantunderstandit. This is a BB, not a cell phone. Sign me Grumpy today.

juniormom
Apr. 30, 2009, 02:58 PM
If you only have a year or year and a half to go as a junior, I would seriously consider leasing a horse in this economy. You will come out ahead and will not have a horse to sell as you go off to college. You will have to pay insurance, and other normal fees. Just my .02 worth..................

chunky munky
Apr. 30, 2009, 07:16 PM
Bless their pointed little heads.. all with well meaning

ACS
Apr. 30, 2009, 08:43 PM
I guess some of you would appreciate a quick update, especially since this thread has reached 7 pages! :eek:

I gave the owner of the horse an LOI, and the owner agreed promptly. The LOI entailed a satisfactory vet check; upon the vet check, I will give the owner a 10% refundable deposit with right of first refusal; I pay for insurance and assume all expenses and use of horse until closing (within 30 days). Owner signed LOI Tuesday, my vet came out to the barn earlier today. So, we'll see how that goes - hopefully an a-okay. Additionally, we both agreed to split the trainer's commission 50%/50%.

snaffle635
Apr. 30, 2009, 10:06 PM
Good luck, ACS! I hope it works out well for you.

juniormom
Apr. 30, 2009, 11:15 PM
Congratulations and we hope that it goes well for you! Good luck!

eggbutt
May. 1, 2009, 12:26 PM
OH NO, I'm confused again!:eek: So, only because I'm really curious and not being mean or anything, you have a letter of intent that the horse will pass vet, you gave a 10% deposit (pending the outcome of the PPE?) and then will finalize the deal within 30 days, right?

So showing the horse before purchasing it is no longer one of your requirements before purchase?

Regardless, congratulations on your initiative!

Giddy-up
May. 1, 2009, 12:49 PM
OH NO, I'm confused again!:eek: So, only because I'm really curious and not being mean or anything, you have a letter of intent that the horse will pass vet, you gave a 10% deposit (pending the outcome of the PPE?) and then will finalize the deal within 30 days, right?

So showing the horse before purchasing it is no longer one of your requirements before purchase?

Regardless, congratulations on your initiative!

I am with eggbutt. So do you get to show the horse in those 30 days after the successful PPE when you pay a 10% refundable deposit (plus insurance & other bills) while waiting to finalize the sale? Or did you decide you no longer needed to show prior to purchase?

So if on day 20 even after a successful PPE the horse whacks himself & goes lame. Or hurts himself in turnout. Do you get to return him, get your 10% deposit back & only pay what bills you acrued during the 20 days? Just curious.

Good luck with things. :)

Calhoun
May. 1, 2009, 01:14 PM
Good for you! Post pics!

sisu27
May. 1, 2009, 01:24 PM
Doesn't matter...have not read the thread but I used to ask for a deposit and a BOS on high-end automobiles...eliminates tire-kickers in a hurry!

Good luck with the horse!!

pines4equines
May. 1, 2009, 04:57 PM
Just popping in from Horse Care where I usually frequent...

Ah, how exciting? I'm 47 and you can add up all the horses I've owned for 38 years and their total price tag is $1500. Yes, I'm Ms. Freebie!

Shoot, I'm so envious you lucky dog!

Show your hundred grander and have fun!!! (Or is it a 6 figure over ONE hundred grand...is it TWO hundred!) Shoot!