A question about rearing

[skint]

5yo OTTB mare, owned for about 18 months, last raced Sept 07
back/saddle fit checked every 6 months, last checked early April 09
teeth done every 6 months, last done end Dec 08
eats forage/fibre based diet with the following supplements:
Biotin, Pink Powder (a pro-biotic) mint, garlic
lives out 24/7 on good grazing with a small settled herd
in light work ride/lunge work 3-4 times a week
always a challenge, bucked a lot but seemed to be getting past this, but never reared like this before

Suddenly, last week she started rearing. I'm completely stumped as to why she should start doing this now. Most people that know us think it is naughtiness and that because the bucking wasn't getting her out of work she had upped the ante to rearing.

Then my daughter (who rides her) told me that our friend kept telling her that the horse's bit was set too low in the mouth, so our friend adjusted it higher. Coupled with this, my daughter is having a lot more formal lessons with her and being told to keep a better "contact" with her.

I want to suggest to my daughter that when she has her next lesson, she put the bit back on it's original setting and see what happens, has anyone had any experience of this or does anyone have any suggestions?

I normally post on another forum, of which I am very fond, but I wanted to canvas a wider ranger of opinions on this subject so am posting here as well. Thanks for reading.

[Ozone]

Your horse can just be trying to avoid work, get your number - your daughters number. It does not sound physical to me at all. You horse is young and this is what happens depending on the horse.

I have a reformed rearer and I took all the necessary steps you have with your horse. It was a "number" thing with my horse. I liked him enough to ride it through and he is no longer a rearer.

Good Luck! Be consistant and your horse will be ok.

[skint]

Thanks for your response Ozone
My daughter will get her through it, as she did with the bucking. It just looks so much worse to a ringside mum like myself

[jetsmom]

What kind of bit are you using? Try a 3 piece bit (like a KK ultra) or a solid bit like a Happy Mouth Mullen Mouth.

I'd work her more if you have ruled out any pain issues. A fit TB is more likely to need more than 3 days a week work. Especially when Spring is in the air and they may want to be silly.

I'd also make sure your daughter isn't giving conflicting aids. Many riders mistake more contact for "death grip" or never softening the hands.

Usually there is a warning before horse will rear...they get balky or "sticky". Have her ride with a crop and insist on being forward. And if she has to use the stick/voice to make her go forward, make sure she doesn't catch the horse in the mouth/pull back if she gets an explosive leap forward into a canter (if she was wanting a trot). Reward the "forward" then quietly ask for the desired gait.

[findeight]

Kind of different types of rearing too. One thing to go straight up and over trying to hurt the rider without caring about themselves-those are bad.

But quite a few more of them, particularly mares IME, will suck back and threaten or just sort of stand up a little-maybe squeal or grunt. They resort to this as an alternative to bucking when they realize bucking will no longer get them out of anything and/or learn it takes less energy to do this instead of bucking around like a fool. Much easier to just plant the feet and refuse to move. Add a little rock back and go up and you get the drama queens throwing a tantrum. Works too, some are quite good at it.

This is more apt to occur when the work gets a little more demanding, and it sounds like this is as your daugheter and the mare are advancing. It is also a common stumbling block in making up a green horse. Everybody worries about the first few rides needlessly, it's when you start getting more serious they realize where this is all going and object. The smarter they are, the worse it can be.

Listen, the mare HAS to learn to accept the contact and go forward whether she feels like it or not. Drop the bit back down if you want but doubt that's the issue. It's just a tantrum to avoid complying and it has to be ridden through.

One solution that will help is to let the Pro ride her regularly for a few weeks, at least. Another is to make sure DD does not give in-she may have to do something else instead of what she wanted but she cannot let the mare get out of work. Even if she has to stand there for 20 minutes, you can out bore them, or just go walk in a circle, she cannot get off that horse when she pulls this stunt.

Since it is a younger mare, you might investigate some help with hormones. Takes the agressiveness out of some quite nicely. I know somebody is going to say ulcers and that's worth a thought. But she still needs to get trained up and that's basically what she is not liking.

Would be remiss not to remind that sore hocks, back and other track souveniers can influence behavior and one with sore anything won't like going forward and might rear. You do need to rule out the hocks particularly.

[Equilibrium]

A bit OT, but would you mind telling me the name of your ex-racehorse? You can pm me if you'd like.

She does sound very well minded and everything checked out so I would tend to agree with the other posters who are leaning towards her being a bit onery and manipulative.

Terri

[joiedevie99]

Just re: the bit, if it was set too low- don't put it back. I assume you are riding in some sort of snaffle (since rearing issues and forward issues will be worse with anything stronger). If so, there should be two small wrinkles in the corners of the mouth when the bit is fitted correctly. There should also be 1/8 to 1/4 of an inch of bit sticking out on either side- especially important for a loose ring- to prevent pinching.

[findeight]

Theres a thought...the bit works properly now that it is set where it belongs.
Mare likes it not one iota because she cannot ignore it:lol:.

The one I have now is the Queen of mares and world's largest Large Pony (15.3). All attitude. You get used to it and find they make better horses and will give you all they have-when they feel like it. If they don't, you learn to negotiate a settlement.

[mvp]

But your comment about her current work on "taking up more contact" might require some attention that other posters haven't mentioned.

Horses often choose rearing as their tactic of choice when they feel trapped in front. What counts as "trapped?" Some of that has to do with the rider's feel and timing, and some of that has to do with the horse's opinion. They can be taught to accept just about any degree of collection or pounds of pressure in the hand. It's quite amazing.

You mare might be "setting her foot down" (by taking them off the ground!) about the new rules of contact. If so, can your daughter work on her hands on another horse while the pro gives the mare a few rides planned to make her more tolerant?

Whether your daughter or the pro does the training on this mare, it's really important that she gets ridden in a systematic, thoughtful way. There should be a "right answer" waiting somewhere for her to discovery-- the thing the mare does that gets a soft ride. Learning the dexterity, timing and feel that constitute "soft hands" is a specific skill. It can take some time to develop and is a little tough to learn when horse and rider are learning together.

By the way, it's spring! Of course your mare feels good enough to say "No!" to new additional demands at work. Let her work at the office a bit and then go to the beach later.

[ThoroughbredFancy]

My 6 year old TB gelding reared on one of our first rides outside in the large arena that has no fence and is in the middle of an open field. He hopped and reared twice then fell and took off into the field leaping around. Now, I think that one was just a case of severe spring fever and I haven't seen it happen before or again. He was so hot and full of himself that day anyways.

But with your mare it might be that she is resisting work. I know my guy will kick out if he "doesn't feel like" doing this or that so I add stronger leg, loosen my hands a bit and encourage with the whip if I have to. Just getting him to move forward.

Or maybe she feels trapped. I notice a lot of riders riding with way more hand then they do leg.

What happens if she keeps a little slack in the reins and just goes forward. Once she gets the concept of forward you can then introduce contact.

If you are introducing contact now she might be resisting or not wanting to carry herself because it is harder work. She might just have your number and be giving you the finger.

[caballus]

Suddenly, last week she started rearing. The key word is "suddenly" ... horses don't just *suddenly* exhibit a new behavior without really good reason. 5 year olds are still losing and growing new teeth. May be a behavioral issue but I'd have the teeth checked, too. A horse will buck from a "pain in the back" and rear from front end issues (yes, that includes mental issues as resistance) ... so before assuming it is a behavioral 'problem' I'd have her mouth checked to rule out any pain issues.

[skint]

Thanks so much to everyone for responding, I had this great reply all typed out addressing each of the points and then I got timed out and it's gone and now I don't have time to go through it again! :sigh::p

Equilibrium- her name is Barney's Dancer.We call her Bella-more recently Bellzilla) She trained with JM Bradley. In the comments of her performance in one of her races it said "unruly at the start" I can hardly believe it:winkgrin:
She was very tired and thin when we bought her, she has bloomed and grown a lot! If you find anything interesting let me know!

Hands/contact issues, my daughter knows that this is a weak point in her riding and it's something she's had to work on throughout her whole riding life, it's probably why she tends to ride loose.

The bit is a plain link snaffle, the Pro is coming to talk with us on Friday so we can discuss this, along with the contact issues then. She will be doing a Bowen session on Friday too, never seen it done and am looking forward to it.

I did LOL at findeight's post about diva tantrums (she has them) and the type of rearing described (suck back and up she goes) and also her reaction to having the bit in a more effective position!

We will look at getting her teeth checked again and also her back/hocks things like that.

Thanks again for all your input, it is really appreciated.

[skint]

Further to this thread I am happy to report that the rearing issue has been cracked (hope I haven't just placed the jinx on it though :winkgrin:)

-We moved her to a friend's yard where there is a schooling ring available.

-My daughter now exercises her 5+ times a week-at first under close supervision but now they are at a stage where they have more freedom.

-She is on individual turnout although can see the other horses at all times

-We stopped all supplements apart from a Moody mare one and biotin

-We gave her a course of Bowen Therapy-this has had a profound difference, I was sceptical to begin with but even I could see a real difference in her way of going, particulalry on her weaker (right) side

-We had her teeth and saddle fit checked-all ok

-My daughter is having lessons on another horse as often as possible as well as regular lessons on Bella. As many of you suggested, the main problem is her hands and the way she established contact. Now that Bella is calmer, the instructor also rides her, this in itself is progress because at the beginning she wouldn't! The instructor says that Bells is a diva and won't tolerate any weakness in your riding style, basically if you want to ride her you really have to step up your game.

It seems that my daughter tended to get rigid through her elbows which relayed itself to Bella and they would wind each other up and this escalated to rearing. My daughter was upset to think her riding had been the main cause of the problem and has really put a lot of effort into improving this, with excellent results. She feels a lot more confident in her own abilities too, which is wonderful.

[Bluey]

Further to this thread I am happy to report that the rearing issue has been cracked (hope I haven't just placed the jinx on it though :winkgrin:)

-We moved her to a friend's yard where there is a schooling ring available.

-My daughter now exercises her 5+ times a week-at first under close supervision but now they are at a stage where they have more freedom.

-She is on individual turnout although can see the other horses at all times

-We stopped all supplements apart from a Moody mare one and biotin

-We gave her a course of Bowen Therapy-this has had a profound difference, I was sceptical to begin with but even I could see a real difference in her way of going, particulalry on her weaker (right) side

-We had her teeth and saddle fit checked-all ok

-My daughter is having lessons on another horse as often as possible as well as regular lessons on Bella. As many of you suggested, the main problem is her hands and the way she established contact. Now that Bella is calmer, the instructor also rides her, this in itself is progress because at the beginning she wouldn't! The instructor says that Bells is a diva and won't tolerate any weakness in your riding style, basically if you want to ride her you really have to step up your game.

It seems that my daughter tended to get rigid through her elbows which relayed itself to Bella and they would wind each other up and this escalated to rearing. My daughter was upset to think her riding had been the main cause of the problem and has really put a lot of effort into improving this, with excellent results. She feels a lot more confident in her own abilities too, which is wonderful.

That is such an interesting case history.
I was thinking that this sounded like a young horse that needed to be in steady and serious work and in the hands of a professional until further along and the rider learning more from an old schoolmaster.

Guess that both were further along that I was thinking, as they are both doing so well now.:cool:
Thanks for telling us your story, for all to learn more.:)

[BornToRide]

I am really glad you gave the mare the benefit of the doubt and thoroughly checked her out rather than just believing she was merely naughty. Most horses do have a reason for such behavior. Very rarely is it simply behavioral. Thanks for sharing :)

[skint]

That is such an interesting case history.
I was thinking that this sounded like a young horse that needed to be in steady and serious work and in the hands of a professional until further along and the rider learning more from an old schoolmaster.

Guess that both were further along that I was thinking, as they are both doing so well now.:cool:
Thanks for telling us your story, for all to learn more.:)

You could still be right in the long run as it is still very much a work in progress. :) Although she hasn't reared or bucked for a long while she still voices her opinion on occasion and they have some sessions that are better than others.

For me, the main thing is they're having a lot of good quality formal training and if it turns out that they reach a stage where they need to part ways she will have had the benefit of this training and hopefully get a competent home that will make the most of her talents and take her to the next level.

However, what has become apparent recently is that Bella has a recurring problem with the right rein, even when being ridden by the professional and even with maintainance Bowen sessions.

I am not a horse expert but I hope you can picture this. Walk and trot are ok on the right but she doesn't "track up" as well and if she is going to be awkward it will be on this rein.

In the canter it seems she can't bring the inside back leg forward enough so she kind of drops the foot short and becomes "disunited"

I think the next step is exercises to really strengthen the right side, and possibly a vet to see if there is something more insidious going on, which I hope there is not as this could really limit her future prospects.

Has anyone got any experience of this, if so what helped? Did you get a vet, what did they say?

[Lamma70]

I wanted to try and resurrect this thread. My horse just reared on me last week for no apparent reason. He was on a loose rein...although it was a windy day, we were in the middle of the field and we had just passed his friends in the paddock, and this was the second day of riding after he had been off with an illness for a few weeks. Okay, so I guess there were reasons to rear, but we were riding with another horse and my friend. But, this was the first time I had ever fallen off when he reared. He has probably reared 2-3 times in the past and tends to be a balky horse.

So, this past weekend, when I was at the brink of selling him, I was introduced to the Bowen Method. I went through a 4-hour clinic and we talked about using different accupressure points to help relax and ground the horse, and also talked about grounding ourselves through relaxation and breathing (although I am generally a relaxed person). The clinician then did a Bowen session on my horse, and he really seemed to relax, etc. Right now, I am supposed to wait 2-3 days before doing anything with him at all, but am anxious to get back and spend some time with him. We really seemed to reconnect through this weekend, and I definitely want to give it another go.

To the original OP, if you read this, how is your horse coming along? And, do you think the Bowen definitely helped, or was it just the fact that the horse was in more training?

I have not had my horse or myself in regular training for a year now due to money issues, but now may be able to start back up again. I think he definitely does better when he is in regular work, but don't want to start until I determine he isn't sore anywhere. He will have another Bowen session in a few weeks, and in the meantime, I am just going to work with him on the ground...getting him to connect more with his mind and body. It is a very interesting type of therapy, and I admit I am a little skeptical, but time will tell.

If anyone has any stories to share on Bowen, and it helped, I would love to hear them.

[She's Pure Gold]

I wanted to try and resurrect this thread. My horse just reared on me last week for no apparent reason. He was on a loose rein...although it was a windy day, we were in the middle of the field and we had just passed his friends in the paddock, and this was the second day of riding after he had been off with an illness for a few weeks. Okay, so I guess there were reasons to rear, but we were riding with another horse and my friend. But, this was the first time I had ever fallen off when he reared. He has probably reared 2-3 times in the past and tends to be a balky horse.

So, this past weekend, when I was at the brink of selling him, I was introduced to the Bowen Method. I went through a 4-hour clinic and we talked about using different accupressure points to help relax and ground the horse, and also talked about grounding ourselves through relaxation and breathing (although I am generally a relaxed person). The clinician then did a Bowen session on my horse, and he really seemed to relax, etc. Right now, I am supposed to wait 2-3 days before doing anything with him at all, but am anxious to get back and spend some time with him. We really seemed to reconnect through this weekend, and I definitely want to give it another go.

To the original OP, if you read this, how is your horse coming along? And, do you think the Bowen definitely helped, or was it just the fact that the horse was in more training?

I have not had my horse or myself in regular training for a year now due to money issues, but now may be able to start back up again. I think he definitely does better when he is in regular work, but don't want to start until I determine he isn't sore anywhere. He will have another Bowen session in a few weeks, and in the meantime, I am just going to work with him on the ground...getting him to connect more with his mind and body. It is a very interesting type of therapy, and I admit I am a little skeptical, but time will tell.

If anyone has any stories to share on Bowen, and it helped, I would love to hear them.

I did a quick search (Google Scholar) and did not find any research articles relating to it at all. I went to a website that describes the technique, and I would say after reading it, that I would be incredibly skeptical of its effectiveness. I'm a researcher, so unfortunately, anecdotal "success stories" and "testimonials" don't work on me :winkgrin: The site I went to (http://www.boweninfo.com/index.htm) has a research page, but I'm not impressed with any of the little blurbs they have. Only a few of them have citations or references, most sound like within-groups studies (which can be interesting, but do not determine cause/effect). From one of the citations, I found this page http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/8513/34968/358741.html?d=dmtContent which pretty much confirmed my initial thoughts; serious lack of studies showing efficacy for pretty much anything. Personally, I wouldn't waste my $$ on it.

And FWIW, I'm a massage therapist, so it's not that I just don't "get" integrative medicine ;) I just don't believe everything a lot of alt-med people would like us all to believe (because research just doesn't back it up!).

Sorry about your recent rearing problem, I would recommend talking with a good trainer who has experience (and success!) with horses that rear and also your vet to rule out any physical issues. Good luck!

[dwblover]

Have her ride the horse like a hunter on a loose rein for one lesson. If the rearing stops then you've got your answer. This mare may just not like the claustrophobic feeling of a heavy contact. You need to introduce contact slowly and TBs really don't need a ton of it.

I've also found that TBs do seem to like their bits a hole lower than most of the other horses I ride. They do have their quirks!