Double dilute experts - what did I get here???

[TrueColours]

Well - I know its a filly at least and I am PRETTY certain she is not cremello

Pearlescent delivered her foal a few hours ago. For those that dont know, Pearl is a perlino and the sire - Guaranteed Gold - is a cremello, so the only option here is a double dilute - nothing else is possible.

The foal was VERY dark at birth. So much so you'd swear it was a palomino.


The mane and tail are a dark mocha colour and side by side against Pearl, you can definately see the red tinge to her mane and tail and the chocolate tinge to the filly's

So - without further ado - here she is!


http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/Pearl-filly-Apr09.jpg

and:

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/Pearl-filly-Apr09-1.jpg

and:

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/Pearl-filly-Apr09-2.jpg

and finally:

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/Pearl-filly-Apr09-3.jpg


So - what do you all think??? Did I get the world's first smoky cream or not?! :)

[alliekat]

I am no color expert but wanted to say congrats no matter what color she is. I will be very interested in hearing what color others think she is.

[foxhavenfarm]

Oh wow Donna! Whatever color she is she is going to be stunning! I'm going to guess perlino like mom, but who knows!

[aurum]

Is she still wet in these pictures or dry? I guess only a color DNA test will tell if she is Perlino or Smoky Cream.

For sure not the first Smoky Cream in the world, but eventually the first one in the TB world... :winkgrin:

[JB]

Cute for sure!

My first thought is Perlino It may take a foal shed to tell for sure so we can see the real body color. Maybe smoky cream. Do you know Pearl's genetics? Obviously E?A?CrCr, but it's the ? that makes it hard to know right now.

[Daydream Believer]

She's a bit darker than my perlino dun foals. Granted the dun is also a dilution. My guess is smoky cream.

[TrueColours]

Pearl is Ee and Aa

When the filly was coming out she was SO dark it was like I was delivering a light chestnut or a very very dark palomino with chocolately smutty tones to the colour

There is no red at all to her - none whatsoever and in real life, dried off (and those pictures were taken at about 60-90 minutes old, dried off) she is a very light mocha colour and her tail is a very dark chocolately mocha

Now I thought perlino's had to have that red tinge to their manes and tails?

This is my first ever double dilute Ive had born, so I have no experience to pull from in foaling out cremello's and perlino's to know that what I am seeing is vastly different from anything else Ive seen but my gut feeling, for whatever THAT is worth, is because of the chocolate tone to her in every area, she is a black base and not bay, making her a smoky cream but obviously only a DNA test will tell me for sure ...

Ah yes aurum ... :) ... sorry ... possibly the first smoky cream THOROUGHBRED, not the first one ever ...

Does anyone have any newborn smoky cream photo's to post to compare?

[Daydream Believer]

I have not tested this colt yet either but we think he is a perlino...possibly a perlino dun...not sure about the dun yet. You can see the darker cast to his mane/tail...I would not say the mane has a reddish tinge..more golden. He is about a day old here.

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l215/ssluss/P4080010.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l215/ssluss/P4080016.jpg

Here is about a couple hours old and barely dry.

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l215/ssluss/IMG_0389.jpg

[TrueColours]

Daydream Believer - night and day difference between your colt and my filly in the coat colour and the mane/tail colour as well.

His coat looks pale, Pearl's coat is that same hue, but my filly is a very light mocha colour head to toe and the tail is a very deep chocolate colour throughout

The only thing that makes sense to me IS smoky cream??? Someone suggested smoky brown? Is there such a thing and is it possible?

[Nootka]

I have never heard of that... but I am curious also.

My thought if it wasn't smoky cream... what about perlino or cremello with the sooty mixed in there?

[aurum]

Having seen smoky creams and perlinos, I personally would vote for smoky cream, but as I said earlier, a DNA test will tell it 100%.

[Snaffle Bit]

I suggested Smoky Brown on the other forum.:lol:

Basically a brown base (At) with two cream genes. I'm not sure if its the "official" term, but it fit.

I know the GG has several of "Brown Buckskin" foals (Quickgoldbucks and Guaranteed Galoubet come to mind). I've seen several of his that Brown + Cream so I wondered if maybe this little girl is two cream genes on a brown base?

[aurum]

There is no difference genetically in a dark bay / brown or bay horse as far as the genetic scientists have said. It all is the same genetic of E and A. Buckskins are just that, buttermilk buckskin if very light, buckskin or golden buckskin if the desired real golden coat and the dark to very dark ones that almost look black bay with a golden tint on them.

This foal maybe a double dilute of very dark bay but as I said earlier, the best is to do a DNA and hope for smoky cream as that is something VERY rare.

[Mythology]

My vote is smokey cream- But you HAVE to let us know after the DNA test!!! What a cool foal... Congrats!!!

[JB]

There is no difference genetically in a dark bay / brown or bay horse as far as the genetic scientists have said. It all is the same genetic of E and A.
Well, bay and brown are genetically different (and PetDNA is currently testing for Brown), and there are genetics at work to distinguish between shades of colors - chestnut, bay, brown - but the genetics have not been determined.

Given the new information, as I said on the other forum, there is indeed a possibility she's a smoky brown. I think you should have GG and Pearl tested for Brown :D

[aurum]

I have just been told that they have not found a difference and that there is no test for brown.

Where is your information coming from and where can brown be tested?
Would be interesting to tell the German color genetic people.

[okggo]

aurum, I don't know the status, but I participated in a study about a year ago that was looking at the genetic causes/factors of seal brown. I know the University (and lord help me I can't remember which one) was collecting DNA from tons of horses (mine included) to research. I'm guessing by now they figured something out, which maybe is what JB is referring to.

[Snaffle Bit]

Pet DNA Services tests for the "Brown" gene: http://www.petdnaservicesaz.com/Equine.html

Here is an article with information about "Brown" also known as "Seal Brown". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_brown_(horse)

[aurum]

Thanks for the links. So how does the genetic make up test? EE or Ee and AA or Aa and what in addition to make it different than bay?

Since a single dilute black is smoky black, the single dilute brown would be smoky brown? The double dilute on brown would then be Brown Cream?

[Snaffle Bit]

I don't believe it affects the black base at all.

At tests as bay for the "normal" Agouti test as far as I know. However, you can determine if it is A (normal bay agouti) or At (Seal brown) with the Brown test. If I understand it right, At is a mutation of the "normal" Agouti gene.

[Snaffle Bit]

Since a single dilute black is smoky black, the single dilute brown would be smoky brown? The double dilute on brown would then be Brown Cream?


Hmm, I'm honestly now sure. Possibly? I don't think there is an official name for it, since it sort of falls under Perlino.

[Karma]

I have the same question about my filly. She also came out pretty dark (compared to mom/cremello). Sire is a perlino. Her mane and tail are sandy (like a beach) colored. You can really see the difference between her and mom outside in the light. I also think she is a smokey cream and she looks a lot like your filly! How cool is that!

[Nootka]

ok now ..... TrueColors you need to go pull those hairs now! :yes:

[TrueColours]

ok now ..... TrueColors you need to go pull those hairs now!


Done!

And she wasnt impressed one single bit to have her tail yanked either ... ;)

I'll let everyone know once I get the results back ... :)

[ottb_dressage]

Hey True Colors...I thought of you when I was searching through the CANTER California website today. There is a 3 year old chestnut mare for sale on there who I'm SURE is a chestnut sabino. She has 4 high white stockings, a big wide blaze and a decent sized belly spot. She is by Madraar out of Sensual Persuasion, and has Raise A Native on both sides (where I'm thinking her color is coming from).
She's a LOVELY filly with what looks like pretty nice conformation, she's unnamed, unraced and if I had money and place for a horse she'd be coming home with me tomorrow. I can only imagine the lovely babies she'd have by your stallion :winkgrin:

[TrueColours]

ottb dressage - thanks so much. Ive been in contact with the trainer on her and with the shipping cost to get her here, I just simply couldnt swing her, but she is such a lovely mare, I called a few other breeder friends about her and also one in CA, so I am hoping one of them felt she would suit their breeding program and snapped her up

Yeah - I think she would have been amazing with my stallion but I keep telling hubby "I am downsizing Honey, I really am!" and I just wasnt quite sure how she would lend credibility to my assertions that I really WAS trying for less horses instead of more! :D

But thanks so much for thinking of me with her ... :)

[ottb_dressage]

I completely understand...I keep telling hubby that I wont bring a horse home until we have the property to keep our own since board is just too expensive right now...LOL
Please let me know if any of your breeder friends in California get ahold of that mare, as I'd love to keep tabs on what she produces. I'm a HUGE fan of TB's with color (and even more of a sucker for a chestnut with all that white like that mare), and I think it's very very cool what you and other breeders like you are doing for the TB breed :D

[busybee]

I have no ideas but I think she's adorable.

[TrueColours]

I dont know if this will help in the decision as to what colour she is but here are some pictures of her and Pearl taken outside today

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/Pearl-filly-Apr09-4.jpg

and:

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/Pearl-filly-Apr09-5.jpg

and:

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/Pearl-filly-Apr09-6.jpg

and:

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/Pearl-filly-Apr09-7.jpg

and:

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/Pearl-filly-Apr09-8.jpg

Pearl is turning out to be a fabulous Mom, especially for a young maiden mare. I am SO pleased with her! :)

Tail hair went in today so I should have the results back in another week or so ...

and I think it's very very cool what you and other breeders like you are doing for the TB breed

Thanks very much for the kind words as well ... :)

[aurum]

Pearl is gorgeous. Perfect in conformation she looks. I hope I get one like that one day. Last year only dilute TB colts popped up. This year two Palomino TB fillies, but two are still inside of mom.

I bred Shew O Gold GF to Alchemist, hopefully she is pregnant. That outcome will be a surprise foal too.

What is the name of this little dd beauty? Guaranteed Surprise?

[TrueColours]

I bred Shew O Gold GF to Alchemist, hopefully she is pregnant. That outcome will be a surprise foal too.


Is that for a 2010 foal? When would she be due?

Pearl is gorgeous. Perfect in conformation she looks. I hope I get one like that one day.

She has actually turned into a very very nice mare. I am so pleased with her! I emailed her breeder these pictures last night as well as she hasnt seen her since she left as a yearling. She's a very solid 16.2hh+ and might still hit 16.3hh before she stops growing

What is the name of this little dd beauty?

NO idea ... :) ... it will be up to her new owner to come up with a name for her. I emailed her some suggestions last night and hopefully between those and some ideas she has, she can come up with a perfect name for her

I emailed Dr Sponenberg on her as well and will let him know once we get the test results back :)

[JB]

Definitely smoky cream! Now, it's still possible she will test as brown and not black, but that would be quite less likely.

[okggo]

What a cute filly, and I have to say that is an absolutely stunning mare. Even if she was a "plain" color she would be a great addition to a herd, nice!

[Ambrey]

Wow, what a beautiful filly! (sorry, not a breeder, just browsing baby pics!). I can't wait to see her color as she grows!

[Nootka]

I just have to say DAMN she is cute!!!

[Mythology]

Ohhh she is AMAZING!!! I'd sell a kidney for that baby.... If it would help:lol:
I'm sure her new owner wouldn't sell her for the world- I wouldn't!:D

[TrueColours]

Well ... she has come back as Aa on the agouti test, so we know she isnt smoky cream ... :( ... now I guess we need to do a Red Factor test as well to determine if she is cremello or perlino ... I honestly cannot see her being cremello with the colour she is, but hey - what the heck do *I* know!

Stay tuned. I guess that one will take until Tuesday / Wednesday ... :)

[Daydream Believer]

Too bad! She sure is dark compared to my Perlino. I'd guess she is at least a Perlino...perhaps her base color is just very dark?

[TrueColours]

Too bad! She sure is dark compared to my Perlino. I'd guess she is at least a Perlino...perhaps her base color is just very dark?


Agreed??? I just cant fathom how a cremello would come out looking as dark as a palomino at birth with a chocolately mane and tail!

[Penthilisea]

Color at birth is effected by some other genetic stuff- think of the disappearing leg bars and dorsal stripe many foals have. Darker, in your fillies case, is more discreet. Just my two cents. She's a stunner, no matter what the tests say!

[Nootka]

awww.. sorry she wasnt a smokey creme

She is a stunner regardless..... and with a mom and pop like that she will be a show stopper anyway;)

[flashykatt]

Please let me know if any of your breeder friends in California get ahold of that mare, as I'd love to keep tabs on what she produces. I'm a HUGE fan of TB's with color (and even more of a sucker for a chestnut with all that white like that mare), and I think it's very very cool what you and other breeders like you are doing for the TB breed :D

The bill of sale for this mare is in the mail, on its way to me right now. I didn't realize she was being discussed so many places! There was a long list of people interested in her--I was not at the top of the list, but some people flaked or didn't respond promptly to phone calls or simply changed their minds so I got her!!

She'll be shipped up to the Bay Area in the next week or so. :D

[TrueColours]

flashykatt - super news for you! :) I LOVED the look of that mare!

All the very very best with her ... :)

[flashykatt]

flashykatt - super news for you! :) I LOVED the look of that mare!

All the very very best with her ... :)

Thanks TrueColors! Since she's unnamed, I get to come up with a name for her. I'm thinking, something with the word "Bling" in it, lol!

[TrueColours]

Yeah -that was going to be the fun part as well - getting to name her!

What are you going to do with her? Ride her or breed her?

On my yet-to-be-determined DD filly, I am going to get Red Factor done as well on her :)

I think its kind of important that I state on my website that she IS a perlino, rather than "we are 99% certain this filly is a perlino in colour"

Here is another picture taken yesterday outside. Her coat is still darker than her dam's but not as much as in the beginning and her mane and tail are still darker:


http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/BabyPearl-May09.jpg

And her new owner IS thrilled to bits with her as well, no matter what colour she turns out to be! :)

[aurum]

I should come over and just steal her ......

[TrueColours]

I should come over and just steal her ......

Thanks for the warning ... ;) ... so if I see an older German lady hiding in the bushes, I'll know its you then! :lol:

[TrueColours]

Well - she has come back as Aa and Ee so she is a perlino :)

That was my 2nd guess ... I could have sworn she was a smoky cream and so did most everyone else as well ... :)

[TrueColours]

Got some video footage of the little darling today ... :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQQJ4hC1HEQ

man - was it windy out there! I expected to see Dorothy and Toto and the Wicked Witch of the North go flying by at any second! :D

[Ambrey]

*faint*

Seriously. Cutest. Baby. Ever.