Wine Country no longer at Gray Fox Farms??

[RiddleMeThis]

So I'm not breeding yet, but am keeping track of some stallions I would like to either purchase a foal from, or breed to. I went to pull up Wine Countrys photo from Gray Fox's website and he isn't listed any more.

Anyone know whats up? Did he move to another farm??

Thanks for the help.

[ljshorses]

I noticed that too, I liked him as well.

[Paris]

would love to hear where he ended up.

[Samotis]

I think that is one of the stallions she hadn't imported yet. Maybe she decided on the Federalist instead?

Don't know. I am sure she will chime in.

[ASBJumper]

I'm also still waiting for grayfox to chime in............................ :confused:

I pm'ed her a while ago about him. I personally prefer his looks and type over any of the other stallions she has (just from his confo shot, anyway), and he was on my tentative future bf's list. :winkgrin:

Would love to know what happened....!

[Indy-lou]

I am waiting for the Rascalino/Fabriano, Rated R ; pictures at least!

[grayfox]

Rated R leaves Germany in a couple weeks. We are just waiting for his licensing. Wine Country is up in the air. More information coming.

[Oakstable]

I hadn't heard about Rated R.

Do tell.

[grayfox]

Rated R is a black Hanoverian by Rascalino out of a Fabriano mare. He's big at 3 he's 16.3+. He has 4 socks and a blaze and is an excellent mover. He'll show in the hunters.

[RiddleMeThis]

Any more info on Wine Country grayfox?

[clint]

Any more info on Wine Country grayfox?

And what about Rated R?

[RiddleMeThis]

bump...Grayfox any word on Wine Country of Rated R?

[TatteredDaydreamer]

I'd love to know as well...Rated R sounds just stunning.

[SilverBalls]

I'd love to know as well...Rated R sounds just stunning.

He sure does sound stunning, but at the same token, IMHO the market is saturated with black stallions that have lots of chrome. But is sounds like this will add size to Gray Fox's program if nothing else. Best Wishes!

[flashykatt]

He sure does sound stunning, but at the same token, IMHO the market is saturated with black stallions that have lots of chrome. But is sounds like this will add size to Gray Fox's program if nothing else. Best Wishes!

IS there such a thing as too many black stallions with chrome?! How can that possibly be?? :D:D:D

(Actually, I think that since black has a...I guess "dampening" effect on chrome, and therefore on average white will be more expressed on chestnuts than on bays and blacks, [and more on bays than on blacks?] people will always be drawn to the blacks with chrome. They are rarer, and the contrast of the black coat with the white trim is so striking!)

But I'm curious about the size thing. I actually breed for eventing, but I'm trying to educate myself about the hunter breeding "arena", since I now own several VERY hunter-y bred horses.

What is the desireable size of hunters? All I know is that a Small Jr. Hunter is under 16 hands, and a Large is over, lol. Gray Fox's stallions seem to ME to be plenty big enough--I had a "breeding emergency" and called Gray Fox Farms at the last second and Jill kindly was willing to collect Romantic Star for me with no notice. Then I pretty much invited myself over to see all the stallions :lol:.

Romantic Star is big--he's gotta be 17 hands. I ended up helping Jill to collect him--I handled him and she handled the AV. I am 5'4" and didn't come CLOSE to being able to see over any part of his back. Luckily, he's an extremely kind, tolerant, well behaved guy, lol.

Then I got to see Federalist and Redwine. I was able to go right in with them, and I would say that they are both around 16.2. Now it's possible that I am off by a little bit, because both stallions have a LOT of presence (especially Redwine), and both have those arched, muscled, stallion necks, both of which can make a stallion appear bigger, but I wouldn't be off by much.

I do know a lot of breeders, and I read a lot of forums, and I don't remember seeing anything about horses that are OVER 17 hands being the most sought after in the hunter market. However, I also seem to recall seeing a lot of very tall horses...so??

[Actually maybe this should be a spinoff!]

[JB]

I'd disagree with SB that there is a "saturation" of black w/ chrome stallions.

I'd agree with flashykatt that a 17h+ horse is not the most sought after in the Hunter market, at all. Nobody really wants to see a huge horse c-r-a-w-l-i-n-g down a line because he has to compress his stride to make the "correct" numbers.

And :p to flashy for being able to see all those beautiful boys in the flesh!!

[woweezowee]

IS there such a thing as too many black stallions with chrome?! How can that possibly be?? :D:D:D

(Actually, I think that since black has a...I guess "dampening" effect on chrome, and therefore on average white will be more expressed on chestnuts than on bays and blacks, [and more on bays than on blacks?] people will always be drawn to the blacks with chrome. They are rarer, and the contrast of the black coat with the white trim is so striking!)

But I'm curious about the size thing. I actually breed for eventing, but I'm trying to educate myself about the hunter breeding "arena", since I now own several VERY hunter-y bred horses.

I would be happy to have more options of 17ish hands... Perfect for the smaller broodmare (ours is 15.2h). And I agree about the chrome too. I love lots of white - it's the icing on the cake!

[Perfect Pony]

I would be happy to have more options of 17ish hands... Perfect for the smaller broodmare (ours is 15.2h).

Funny, in my months of research into breeding my mare, I have been told by multiple knowledgeable sources (including many stallion owners) that I should not breed my small mare to a large stallion, especially not with the hope of getting something "in the middle" (in the 16 hand range). Height just doesn't necessarily work that way, and I risk ending up with a HUGE foal if I go with a large stallion.

[woweezowee]

Funny, in my months of research into breeding my mare, I have been told by multiple knowledgeable sources (including many stallion owners) that I should not breed my small mare to a large stallion, especially not with the hope of getting something "in the middle" (in the 16 hand range). Height just doesn't necessarily work that way, and I risk ending up with a HUGE foal if I go with a large stallion.

I would love more info on this (please PM if you'd like). I just started a thread (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=231301) that relates to this.

[Perfect Pony]

I would love more info on this (please PM if you'd like). I just started a thread (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=231301) that relates to this.

Well your thread relates to ponies, I don't know a whole lot about that. I have a Hanoverian mare who is very small, less than 15.2 hands. Most I have talked to said genetically you are more likely to get closer to the mare or closer to the stallion, rather than right in the middle. Therefore I risk getting a huge foal/horse breeding my mare to a large stallion, or a stallion known to have large babies, or could just as likely get a small foal/horse that takes after mom. I am better off breeding to a nice 16 hand stallion if I want if I want to add a little bit of height, but not risk a huge foal/horse.

[Equine Reproduction]

Funny, in my months of research into breeding my mare, I have been told by multiple knowledgeable sources (including many stallion owners) that I should not breed my small mare to a large stallion, especially not with the hope of getting something "in the middle" (in the 16 hand range). Height just doesn't necessarily work that way, and I risk ending up with a HUGE foal if I go with a large stallion.

Unlike things like color, height "is" multi gene determined, so you are more likely to end up with something in the middle if you breed small to large. There is always the potential for genes to line up a bit odd or for one horse to have dominant genes resulting in the offspring following the sire or the dam more closely in size. So, if you bred a 15 hand mare to a 17 hand stallion, you would be more likely to end up with something around 16 hands rather than something at either end of that spectrum.

I can't speak for Wine Country, but the rest of the boys at Gray Fox aren't what I would define as "small", so I'm a bit confused what you mean by that Bill? Or were you meaning "size" as in expanding the size of the breeding operation?

[Perfect Pony]

Unlike things like color, height "is" multi gene determined, so you are more likely to end up with something in the middle if you breed small to large. There is always the potential for genes to line up a bit odd or for one horse to have dominant genes resulting in the offspring following the sire or the dam more closely in size. So, if you bred a 15 hand mare to a 17 hand stallion, you would be more likely to end up with something around 16 hands rather than something at either end of that spectrum.

I can't speak for Red Wine, but the rest of the boys at Gray Fox aren't what I would define as "small", so I'm a bit confused what you mean by that Bill? Or were you meaning "size" as in expanding the size of the breeding operation?

Interesting, as the owner of a small mare I was told the opposite. I in no way want a large horse, and I have been warned repeatedly not to breed my mare to a big stallion in order to get something in the middle.

A mare at a barn I ride at had 3 ET foals, she is about 16.2. 2 by Don Alfredo are about 15.2 and 16.2, one by AristosB is 18 hands and growing. I was repeatedly warned that breeding could be a crapshoot as far as size if the 2 horses are really mis-matched.

[alliekat]

I would be concerned more about breeding a smaller mare( smaller as in substance and width) to a larger stallion(larger as in more substantial) then I am about crossing two that are different in height. If that makes sense. I bred my 15.3 hand mare to a bigger stallion in the hopes that I get a few extra inches in the foal.

[pony89]

Interesting, as the owner of a small mare I was told the opposite. I in no way want a large horse, and I have been warned repeatedly not to breed my mare to a big stallion in order to get something in the middle.

A mare at a barn I ride at had 3 ET foals, she is about 16.2. 2 by Don Alfredo are about 15.2 and 16.2, one by AristosB is 18 hands and growing. I was repeatedly warned that breeding could be a crapshoot as far as size if the 2 horses are really mis-matched.

I don't know a lot about breeding, but maybe it makes a difference if your mare is "genetically" small, versus small because of environmental factors while she was growing up? If she was destined to be 16.3, but due to diet or other factors, only ended up being 15.2, the "in between" with a large stallion could theoretically be a lot bigger than you were expecting, couldn't it?

[Ransom's Rider]

Interesting thought pony89 and I've wondered this myself. I have posted about my 15.2hh TB mare and a stallion choice for her. I believe she is "genetically" larger if there is such a thing. Her full siblings are all much bigger but, I believe, she was her dam's first foal. She was also not fed *that* well as a yearling-3yo. I got her when she was 3 and she grew another 1.5". Not that unusual, I understand, but leads me to believe she would genetically throw a larger foal than her height suggests. I'm looking for something 16.1 ideally and have been looking at stallions in the 16-16.2 range.

[JB]

Absolutely the genetics can be different from the presentation. Horses who were twins, even if the other one died, are often smaller as a mature horse, but still have "tall" genes to pass on.

And then of course there is the growth stunting issue from early poor nutrition.

[Samotis]

genes certainly do matter.

My mare was a maiden and is 15.3 and very petite. (bone wise) I bred her to a 17 hand dutch stallion.

The foal is now 15.3 at almost 2 and will be at least 16.3.

He is much closer to his dads height. He is already wearing his mothers blanket.

Her father was 16.2, so I am not sure if she was small from being a twin, or not great nutrition, but it seems to me that she genetically should have been bigger then she is.

The proof is her first foal!

Bone wise he still looks like a TB. He isn't as petite as his mother, but is certainly refined and not bulky like a old style WB.

I really don't think there is a way to know what heights a mare produces until she has had a few foals.

[TatteredDaydreamer]

Bump....anymore info about Wine Country and Rated R? Very curious about both of them....

[VolteVT]

I don't have any info on these two boys but on a related topic was wondering if anyone knew if Jill was around? I've been trying to get ahold of her on a time-sensitive matter but have been having some difficulty - figured she might be out of town?

Thanks and sorry to be a bit off topic! Feel free to PM.