bringing head down/relaxation

[DrivingQueen]

we have a saddlebred that we are driving, training for cde's and we have difficulty getting him to use his back and track up. he want's to go like a saddlebred. :). we use lowered rings on the breastcollar, but it just seems like he enjoys fighting against them. we have tried running the rolled long lines through the bit and down to the girth, he puts his chin to his chest and off he goes. quite unstoppable. when long-lining or lunging, i can get him to relax, put his head down (for a saddlebred! :)) and actually resemble a dressage horse at times.

i have talked about this horse before in the barn-souredness debate, in the off-course section. he's very forward and wants to do the marathon all the time. we'd like him to relax and listen a little better. he grinds his teeth and is prone to jigging/nervousness.

we are driving in a low port liverpool with rollers on the sides. he as been in a cosquero and a high port three slot liverpool with rollers. (his mouth was pretty well shot before he came to us, tried him in everything from a 4-ring wilson, to glory bit, to the above bits. settled on the low port with rollers because he couldn't evade by coming behind the vertical and can't grab the bit due to the rollers)

ideas? thoughts? suggestions? would also take any stories on severely barn sour horses. he'll go away fine, but as soon as he senses we might be any where resembling going toward the barn, he's a mess. a jigging, ignoring, fired-up mess...

Thanks!

[Renae]

On a long, supple necked horse like most Saddlebreds are I would never attach draw reins between the front legs to the girth. That is just asking a horse to learn to go behind the bit. And if the horse has a history of getting behind the bit I likely would never use draw reins attached in any way.

I would first make sure teeth are in good order and the horse is not sore in any place. Not wanting to work correctly can be a defensive move if something hurts.

I would work in an area where the horse is comfortable and will work for you so you are not dealing with the barn sour issue while trying to teach the horse something else. So likely in an arena, not out on the trails or roads.

I would start in long lines with a smooth french link snaffle and straight reins through a training fork style running martingale. Such a martingale should be adjusted so that when you pull up on the strap that comes over the neck the ring is halfway up the horse's shoulder. Long lining would include lots of transitions and taking every chance given to let the horse move to the bit and carry himself instead of bringing the bit back to him again and again and again- its hard to describe in words :dead: its like the differance between holding up a horse's foot and letting him lean on you and him holding his foot up for you to work on it. On turns keeping a steady outside hand and a taking and giving inside hand, a take that asks for the turn and the bend, and give that invites him to show you that he understands and will continue on until you ask him for something again. In down transitions and halts, doing a half-halt to prepare the horse for a command, and then using voice, and then going back to rein, most Saddlebred quickly get to a point where all they need is a nearly invisble half halt and a voice command. I would not hook the horse again until I was confident that he was listening and trying to work in the way I was asking him all of the time.

I would also really assess the horse and assess the job I would like him to do and think about wether or not it is his job- that is a thing he will be able to do well and happily.

Take it or leave it that is just where I would start :cool:

[twofatponies]

I had some similar issues with my formerly-Amish Morgan. Smart, bombproof and kind, but used to going fast as all get out, and used to having her head strapped up with an overcheck. And only traveling in straight lines... :D

She was, however, perfectly *safe* to drive right away - she just has taken a long time to develop a more dressagey way of going, and I'll be honest, I've done 90% of that work on the ground and under saddle, not hitched. It's just much easier for me that way. We have done a huge amount of trail riding, and that has helped her learn to really use herself, too. It is also a place where I could work on her jigging and rushing issues.

The first driving show I took her too (shortly after I got her), we must have walked ten miles. She was so fidgety I simply walked her in big circles between classes, stopping every once in a while, but when she fidgeted off we went again. Second show I took her to, a few months later - she stood all day long, wherever I parked her. Stood in the class lineups, too! Yay!

But day to day, what worked for me was to exaggerate giving her her head every time she went at the desired pace (or stood still). In other words, say we run into a friend and I want to stop and chat. We halt. Horse waits a split second, then begins walking. I back her up to where she was, and drop the reins. She walks off...repeat. I've done a lot of this when long-lining, too.

For the overall self-carriage, circle work and yielding work on the long-lines have been very helpful, and related exercises under saddle. Helped her learn to bend, use her hindquarters, balance, and use her abs. Anything involving curves and bends - figure eights, serpentines, etc. A couple rounds of chiropractic also helped "unlock" the tension in her shoulders and neck.

Hope that helps a bit.

[goodhors]

Sounds like you got good advice and some methods to try from Renae. Not going to be repaired quickly.

I am not a martingale user, have not found them very helpful. The ones adjusted to pull the head down are rather useless, in my experience. You see them everyplace, but the horse won't work without them forcing him into a position, so they are "gimmicks". Trying to fix something quickly, without doing the needed developing steps so horse understands what is being asked.

A piece of training equipment is supposed to be a temporary use item, TRAINING the horse. Here today, gone in a week or two. Otherwise use is not "training". The device is forcing horse into a position, which horse will not maintain when device is removed. Doesn't really change anything on the horse.

[twofatponies]

Re: not going to be repaired quickly.

I work with my mare 4-6 days a week, and some of that has been with a professional trainer. I am just beginning year three of owning her, and it was in late year two that she really started to move beyond the basics and put everything together in her training. Maybe it could have gone faster, but I wasn't trying to meet a deadline or get her ready for competition, so there wasn't any hurry.

[Renae]

Most Saddlebred trainers do not teach the horse to be on the bit like a dressage trainer does. That is not what is desired, a well trained saddle seat Saddlebred has a lightness, energy and fire that you feel on no other kind of horse. Saddlebred trainers prefer a horse that has self carriage and this extends to carrying the head in the correct spot, the reins only being used to make corrections, not to constantly hold the horse's head in any place or hold his frame together. You have a horse who has been taught to carry himself, and to carry himself in one particular fashion. Reteaching him to seek contact with the bridle and then to change the way in which he carries himself is asking for big things from him. So I would first remove from yourself the mind-set that his mouth is "messed up", he has the mouth his former trainers taught him to have that worked for his former job, you are asking him to do a new job and for that you are teaching him a new skill set. Concentrate on what the horse does well now for what you want to do, build around that.

[twofatponies]

Have you considered getting a(nother) trainer to help? I'd worry a bit that if he blows through the bit, rears, drags you,etc. he's going to get into (or refine) some bad habits. Sorry if I'm stating the obvious. Not sure of your background and experience. No offense!

[Renae]

Have you rules out a physical problem with the horse? As in had a vet who is a lameness specialist look the horse over and do any xrays, or even a full body scan, if they felt it was warranted? There is not much you can do with a horse who "doesn't like to work", and horses don't dislike work as a principle (horses do not have priciples), they dislike work because it is frightening or painful most usually.

[DrivingQueen]

drove horse today, inside due to rain, with lowered rings on both the breastcollar and saddle instead of traditional terrets. walked for ten minutes, working on bending both ways. when i was satisfied with his relaxation and bending, we picked up a trot. we had our speed moments, but he was listening, bending, and relaxed! he even reached for the bit, put his head down on his own and did a stretchy trot both ways of the arena! i think the lowered rings just encouraged him to put his head down, put his back up, and use his rear-end instead of trying to pull upside down. the result was almost total relaxation. i wasn't holding him at all, just contact on the inside rein, asking with the outside, so i wasn't keeping him from raising his head, just encouraging him to put it down. i truly think he doesn't have the muscle or the knowledge of being able to 'work' without going like a saddlebred show horse.

now, he has always been more relaxed inside than out, but this is progress! we'll be driving outside tomorrow and with his owner, so we'll see how that goes.

we spent a lot of time in the long lines last week, working on being able to go forward, staying relaxed.

fingers crossed!

[Cielo Azure]

we have a saddlebred that we are driving, training for cde's and we have difficulty getting him to use his back and track up. he want's to go like a saddlebred. :). we use lowered rings on the breastcollar, but it just seems like he enjoys fighting against them. we have tried running the rolled long lines through the bit and down to the girth, he puts his chin to his chest and off he goes. quite unstoppable. when long-lining or lunging, i can get him to relax, put his head down (for a saddlebred! :)) and actually resemble a dressage horse at times.

i have talked about this horse before in the barn-souredness debate, in the off-course section. he's very forward and wants to do the marathon all the time. we'd like him to relax and listen a little better. he grinds his teeth and is prone to jigging/nervousness.

we are driving in a low port liverpool with rollers on the sides. he as been in a cosquero and a high port three slot liverpool with rollers. (his mouth was pretty well shot before he came to us, tried him in everything from a 4-ring wilson, to glory bit, to the above bits. settled on the low port with rollers because he couldn't evade by coming behind the vertical and can't grab the bit due to the rollers)

ideas? thoughts? suggestions? would also take any stories on severely barn sour horses. he'll go away fine, but as soon as he senses we might be any where resembling going toward the barn, he's a mess. a jigging, ignoring, fired-up mess...

Thanks!

I can relate, some of my Percherons just have a very, very high head set. We have a very good trainer (dressage) and ride them almost everyday but gosh darn it, the head down -relaxation thing is NOT relaxing for them. It is not how they carry themselves in the pasture, it is not how they like to move out! It sometimes feels like we are trying to shove them into a box where they don't fit. Whereas my husband's Hanoverian needs no big "training" for headset, it is just natural. When the head comes down, the topline corrects and the legs do under and the whole package emerges.

I found this blog recently. I absolutely don't agree with all of it or maybe even most of it but I found it had some interesting insights. My big, high stepping girls like to get into what the author calls the ventroflexed spine and go! It is actually their favorite way of going. Not the "correct" head down, relaxation -with impulsion. They can do it and learn to do it but it isn't natural for them. I think it is good for them, I think it improves their topline and muscling but it isn't a natural way of going for my horses. So, this blog jumped out at me as speaking to something I have been trying to grapple with in my own mind.
http://trooperandsarah.blogspot.com/
I know nothing about saddleseat, so I don't know if the discussion is valid of not in terms of correct saddleseat terminology, etc. but I could very much understand where the author was coming from!
http://www.cieloazure.com/corbeau.html (My baby stallion in the pasture, note the relaxed head set -snort)!

So, I agree with the poster who wrote that the best way to train for a "relaxed" headset is in the dressage saddle. For your horse, that "relaxed" headset may never feel comfortable. Learning to do it will take years (it has for my one girl with a neck like a giraffe and who is UPHEADED). A relaxed headset probably isn't how your horse has ever carried himself in the pasture either!

Competiive dressage is difficult if you don't have one of the breeds that the discipline was built for. It doesn't mean that it doesn't have it rewards but...the judges don't often take into account "breed type." Round hole, square peg thing. If you are a square peg, you have to work harder to sand off the edges or you have give up on fitting in the hole.

Of course, you need that curb action to control your horse but that curb action is also going to bring his head right up, given his conformation and training. That is why Pelhams are using in saddleseat. Sometimes there is not wining in this game! We work out horses in a snaffle in the dressage ring but the second the curb goes in and the harness goes on, the head wants to rise up! That is, after all, part of the function of a curb bit and on these up-headed horses, that is all the aid they need sometimes.

The other stuff, barn sour. Ick. That is a hot, opinionated horse trying to get his way. That is a battle that you can win more easily. It sounds like you are suceeding.

[War Admiral]

Listen to Renae. She knows whereof she speaks.

Also - you really might want to think about either getting him scoped or putting him on Gastrogard for a week. Ulcers IMO should always be considered as a possible reason for misbehaviors like running thru the bit & being herdbound. I could tell for a flat-out fact when Q got here that he had ulcers... Put him on GG, changed his diet & he's a different colt now really.

No offense meant here, either, but without seeing him & just going on what you've said so far, it sounds to me like your horse needs a complete rework from the ground up. He needs to go back to ground school and be started completely over, slowly, and in my experience anyway trying to push for a deadline like a CDE may be counterproductive. :(