Farriers vs. Vets

[CamdenLab]

I'm in the process of interviewing farriers.

I just spoke with a highly recommended farrier. All was going well until I told him I was having x-rays done of my horse's feet and legs to see if there was long-term damage from his under run heels and for his new farrier to use as a guide in the case of changes, issues, abnormalities, etc.

He flipped out on me and said that if I were going to do what my vet said to do, to just get a prescription from the vet and hire any farrier to do what the vet says. Then, proceeded to tell me that it seems like I'm up at night worrying about my horse's feet and that it wasn't worth it to him to have me as a client. He said that I had my own ideas, then I would have the vet's opinion, so he didn't want to bother with me and my horse.

In a farrier vs. vet situation, who should I listen to? Is this a case of big ego vs. big ego? Is this the norm?

Gosh, I just want to get my horse fixed and keep him fixed. Why does it have to be so difficult.

I'm frustrated.

[WorthTheWait95]

My vet and farrier work as a team on my horses. I don't think I'd waste my time with professionals that weren't able to do that. It won't do anything but hurt the horse in the long run.

Sounds like you dodged a bullet. At least he showed you his true colors before wasting your time and money on him.

[rcloisonne]

Who "highly recommended" this latest eejit? Does your vet have any farriers he can recommend? I'd scratch off my list any farrier unwilling to work with a vet or is intimidated by radiographs.

It's a difficult time of the year to find a good farrier. Most are booked solid spring through summer. Sometimes a vet can get you an appointment with one, assuming you're vet is an equine specialist.

You might also want to consider the barefoot route. Your horse looks to have basically good feet, they're just poorly trimmed and shod. Barefoot might work IF you can find a good trimmer.

[deltawave]

OK bye-bye now to Mr. Farrier. Sheesh! :eek:

[Fairview Horse Center]

RUN. Run fast from this nutjob.

They need to work well together.

[Tom Stovall]

rcloisonne in gray

Who "highly recommended" this latest eejit? Does your vet have any farriers he can recommend? I'd scratch off my list any farrier unwilling to work with a vet or is intimidated by radiographs.

Here in the hinterlands, vets diagnose and prescribe treatment and farriers trim and shoe. I've never had any problem working with vets who were into the team concept, but I'm not going to try to do their job. Diagnosing pathologies and prescribing treatment on the basis of radiographs is the SOLE province of the veterinarian; in fact, it's against the law for farriers to play vet without a license here in Texas. When a vet asks me to take a look at a set of rads, I'll gladly do it; but I damn sure won't do it for a client without the attending vet's imprimateur, simply because we live in a litigious society and I'm not judgment proof.

It's a difficult time of the year to find a good farrier. Most are booked solid spring through summer. Sometimes a vet can get you an appointment with one, assuming you're vet is an equine specialist.

Unless the OP lives near a concentration of horses, usually an urban area, it'll be tough to find a good farrier, period.

You might also want to consider the barefoot route.

Shouldn't the needs of the horse make that determination?

Your horse looks to have basically good feet, they're just poorly trimmed and shod.

Did you see the horse's hooves when it first walked off the mats?

Barefoot might work IF you can find a good trimmer.

LMAO! Barefoot or shoes, either way will work IF you can find a good farrier. :)

[Patty Stiller]

Geesh.I would WELCOME radiographs on a new client. It would make my job much easier. I say ask the vet for a farrier recommendation, so you have a team.

[CamdenLab]

Here in the hinterlands, vets diagnose and prescribe treatment and farriers trim and shoe. I've never had any problem working with vets who were into the team concept, but I'm not going to try to do their job. Diagnosing pathologies and prescribing treatment on the basis of radiographs is the SOLE province of the veterinarian; in fact, it's against the law for farriers to play vet without a license here in Texas. When a vet asks me to take a look at a set of rads, I'll gladly do it; but I damn sure won't do it for a client without the attending vet's imprimateur, simply because we live in a litigious society and I'm not judgment proof.

Unless the OP lives near a concentration of horses, usually an urban area, it'll be tough to find a good farrier, period.

Just to clarify, I never said I was getting the vet to tell me what kind of shoes to put on my horse, then pass that info onto the farrier. The x-rays are technically a seperate deal. I'm looking for damage from and/or negative results/changes from poor trimming/shoeing (based on symptoms possibly stemming from the poor trimming/shoeing). Will I get his recommendation? Sure! The secondary purpose of the x-rays is so that my new farrier could use it as a guide should there be anything going on in there that affects him in terms of taking care of my horse's feet.

I do live in an urban area, so I guess I'm lucky in that respect.

[CosMonster]

ETA you posted while I was typing...sounds like you may have dodged a bullet there, your desire to get radiographs sounds perfectly reasonable and it doesn't sound like you were even asking him to do anything with them unless he wanted to.

[Androcles]

A while back there was a farrier posting here, I forget his userID but he was apparently taken seriously by both the other farriers here, and the owners here, judging by the responses. One time there was a discussion on this subject and he said, that during a vet/farrier consultation he listens intently, nods his head at the appropriate times, and then ignores the vet's instructions and does whatever he was planning to do anyway.

[greysandbays]

...and he said, that during a vet/farrier consultation he listens intently, nods his head at the appropriate times, and then ignores the vet's instructions and does whatever he was planning to do anyway.

That works pretty well 90% of the time in any life situation.

[CamdenLab]

A while back there was a farrier posting here, I forget his userID but he was apparently taken seriously by both the other farriers here, and the owners here, judging by the responses. One time there was a discussion on this subject and he said, that during a vet/farrier consultation he listens intently, nods his head at the appropriate times, and then ignores the vet's instructions and does whatever he was planning to do anyway.

Again, not looking for instructions to pass onto the farrier from the vet.

[mvp]

I ignore big egos. That means picking the best qualified, most professional peeps to work on my horse's team. I do what I have to do, and say what I have to say to get the job done. I see the vet/farrier thing from both sides. It shouldn't happen, but that's not my deal to solve.

I do ask both sides lots of questions. If they can't deal with that, then I'm not the client for them, and they aren't the pro for me. If they can deal with giving me their perspective, it's all good.

Sometimes farriers are right to question vets' prescriptions. If they don't want to see the radiographs (and don't have x-ray vision) or otherwise blow me off, then we have a big, big problem. Maybe we have the problem only once.

[purplnurpl]

thank goodness I have a great vet (er, team of vets) and one of them specializes in feet.
So I have a vet-podiatrist combo. : )

Farriers don't like me very well either. All I ever have is one thing to say. "back up the shoe".
I don't know why that is so hard. I'm tired of looking at horses with under-run heals. Listen, if my horse trips more than he walks correctly there is a problem!
They'd rather put them up front as to keep from a return visit to tack a shoe back on I guess. But I tell you, the two farriers out of--um--at least 10 I've used that did it well ~ did it well. The shoes never came off.

I'm in love with my horse's feet right now.

As for the OI (original issue) farriers should be willing to work with vets. Or at least review radiographs. Sounds like this guy needed a couple hundred hours of continued education to boot him into shape. Speaking of boots I can tell you where my right paddock boot would have gone!!

[Tom Stovall]

CamdenLab in gray

Just to clarify, I never said I was getting the vet to tell me what kind of shoes to put on my horse, then pass that info onto the farrier.

The choice of a particular shoe is usually a reflection of the individual's needs.

The x-rays are technically a seperate deal.

A farrier/vet consultation to assess the remediation of possible pathological conditions evident on a radiographs is never a "separate deal" at my end of the sandpile.

I'm looking for damage from and/or negative results/changes from poor trimming/shoeing (based on symptoms possibly stemming from the poor trimming/shoeing). Will I get his recommendation? Sure!

With all due respect, how exactly are YOU qualified to "look for damage...", based on YOUR assessment of the rads? When a vet takes a set of rads and the owner/vet/farrier team huddles up around the viewer to discusses the pictures, the owners' input is usually limited to telling the rest of the team what they would like to accomplish in terms of the horse's use, owners don't usually diagnose pathological conditions on the basis of rads or tell farriers how to accomplish the mechanical remediation of any pathological conditions the vet diagnoses on the basis of those rads.

The secondary purpose of the x-rays is so that my new farrier could use it as a guide should there be anything going on in there that affects him in terms of taking care of my horse's feet.

Unless a farrier is willing to play vet, radiographs are useful as a guide for trimming/shoeing only AFTER veterinary/farrier consultation. In my experience, teamwork and communication are absolutely essential, each individual has a clearly defined role, and if any part of the triumvirate's relationship becomes adversarial, the horse suffers.

I do live in an urban area, so I guess I'm lucky in that respect.

LMAO! I'm still trying to figure out where you found a working farrier who had time enough to be "interviewed." :)

[CamdenLab]

CamdenLab in gray

Just to clarify, I never said I was getting the vet to tell me what kind of shoes to put on my horse, then pass that info onto the farrier.

The choice of a particular shoe is usually a reflection of the individual's needs.

The x-rays are technically a seperate deal.

A farrier/vet consultation to assess the remediation of possible pathological conditions evident on a radiographs is never a "separate deal" at my end of the sandpile.

I'm looking for damage from and/or negative results/changes from poor trimming/shoeing (based on symptoms possibly stemming from the poor trimming/shoeing). Will I get his recommendation? Sure!

With all due respect, how exactly are YOU qualified to "look for damage...", based on YOUR assessment of the rads? When a vet takes a set of rads and the owner/vet/farrier team huddles up around the viewer to discusses the pictures, the owners' input is usually limited to telling the rest of the team what they would like to accomplish in terms of the horse's use, owners don't usually diagnose pathological conditions on the basis of rads or tell farriers how to accomplish the mechanical remediation of any pathological conditions the vet diagnoses on the basis of those rads.

The secondary purpose of the x-rays is so that my new farrier could use it as a guide should there be anything going on in there that affects him in terms of taking care of my horse's feet.

Unless a farrier is willing to play vet, radiographs are useful as a guide for trimming/shoeing only AFTER veterinary/farrier consultation. In my experience, teamwork and communication are absolutely essential, each individual has a clearly defined role, and if any part of the triumvirate's relationship becomes adversarial, the horse suffers.

I do live in an urban area, so I guess I'm lucky in that respect.

LMAO! I'm still trying to figure out where you found a working farrier who had time enough to be "interviewed." :)

I didn't ask the farrier to meet with the vet. I didn't tell the farrier that I was getting a recommendation from the vet, either. Once I said the vet was coming out and was going to take x-rays, the farrier flipped out. Would I want a consult? Sure, if it was warrented. I don't even know what's going on in there, so whose to say that they need to speak? Could be everything is fine, but strained from the under run heels. If there needs to be a consult or meeting, of course I want a farrier who is willing to listen to what the vet has to say. If the vet and farrier don't need to meet, why not use the x-rays to your advantage as a farrier? I'm not going to force my farrier and vet to meet if the vet is simply going to say that it looks like my horse is stressed or strained or whatever from under run heels and the farrier says yeah, so I'll fix that. I don't know what's going to happen, but I'm not going to schedule a conference call before the vet even sees my horse.

When did I say that I was going to read my horse's x-rays? Something is wrong. It's my horse. So, I'm looking to find out what is wrong with him. How will I find that? I'll call the vet. Was it really that difficult to understand?

I'm not sure why a farrier couldn't be interviewed. Between appointments. While stuck in traffic. On a Sunday. Super early. Late evenings. There are people out there busier than farriers and they manage to return calls and speak with prospective clients.

[BornToRide]

I too would welcome any additional info I could get about the health of a horse's hoof. I find that general one gets reactions like this when too much [fragile] ego is involved in an individual. He absoluutely had no reason or right to treat you as disrespectful AND unprofessional as he did! You, and most importantly your horse, are probably better off without him! :yes:

[Surviving the Dramas]

So whats the problem here? I'm confused. Apart from the fact the farrier sounds like a moron.

Why would it not be to his advantage to have a squiz at the xrays? Surely they would help him to identify any possible problems? No, I don't expect my farrier to have a vet degree, but I do expect him to understand the biomechanic issues of the leg/horse and if he can't read those from the xrays/real life, then I don't think they are good enough to be my farrier!!!

It doesn't sound to me like the OP went to the Vet asking them to tell her how to shoe her horse, just that they wanted to know any long term ill effects from poor shoeing.

Thankfully my vet/farrier work excellently together. We have had ongoing problems with a filly who broke a section off her hoof, so often the vet is there sedating her (to debride) while my farrier shoes my other horses. We three all talk and discuss the particular needs of my other horses as well - great because I don't get charged any extra from the vet :winkgrin:

When my older horse had soundness issues we all sat down and discussed treatment. My vet would certainly not tell the farrier what to do, but would point out her concerns from the xrays, and farrier would address those concerns. Me - I usually nodded and started signing the (blank) cheque:rolleyes::sadsmile:

[Androcles]

Again, not looking for instructions to pass onto the farrier from the vet.

Not instructions, but interpretation of what is on xrays, which farriers are not supposed to do, and is what you'll be getting. It's not like the two of them will draw a line in the sand and politely agree to each stay on their side of it. The story speaks to the disconnect between these professions and what you are experiencing, and to expect it not to be unusual to have these turf wars which you may have to finesse. IOW, it's not a black and white, cut and dried issue. And - making a comment on the apparent contradiction of everyone blanketly dismissing your theoretical, highly recommended farrier (highly recommended for a reason, presumably) on the basis of the reaction to working with a vet, yet when there was a real such case right here, a highly regarded farrier dismissing the vet's input, he was not considered an 'idjit'.

[decorum]

Any hoof care professional that won't look at rads if offered to them is off, IMO. Why the heck not? It's a great tool and I welcome clients that care enough to have them done.

Ann Szolas

[matryoshka]

I'd think any farrier would welcome rads on a new horse, especially if the horse has underrun heels. Then he can get a good idea of sole thickness and know what he's dealing with from the outset. He doesn't have to interpret the rads for the client in order to use them to do a good job.

Sounds like he's tired of owners trying to tell him what to do. This means you are unlikely to have a good dialogue with him about what your horse needs, and he's also not likely to appreciate your input. It doesn't make him a bad farrier--just not the farrier for you.

Good thing you are interviewing over the phone and saved yourself a frustrating visit.

[Tom Stovall]

CamdenLab in gray

I didn't ask the farrier to meet with the vet.

Why not? Teamwork is essential.

I didn't tell the farrier that I was getting a recommendation from the vet, either. Once I said the vet was coming out and was going to take x-rays, the farrier flipped out.

Why did you have the farrier out BEFORE you had the vet take the rads?

Would I want a consult? Sure, if it was warrented.

If you want the vet to read the rads and a mechanic to trim/shoe on the basis of those rads, consultation is always warranted.

I don't even know what's going on in there, so whose to say that they need to speak?

Since farriers can't legally diagnose pathological conditions, if the rads are relevant, the vet's input is essential.

Could be everything is fine, but strained from the under run heels.

Underrun heels are most often indicative of a poor choice of antecedents, existent pathology, poor husbandry, and/or poor trimming/shoing. Whatever the cause, a good team can usually remediate the condition, but most often the fix is not permanent, it requires maintenance.

If there needs to be a consult or meeting, of course I want a farrier who is willing to listen to what the vet has to say.

Unless all concerned have input into the consultation, it's an exercise in futility. There is no captain, everyone on the team is a player, and playing each other's role is verboten.

If the vet and farrier don't need to meet, why not use the x-rays to your advantage as a farrier?

Failing the peer-to-peer exchange of information, how exactly can rads be legally used to any advantage by a farrier?

I'm not going to force my farrier and vet to meet if the vet is simply going to say that it looks like my horse is stressed or strained or whatever from under run heels and the farrier says yeah, so I'll fix that.

That's not how it works, but since you apparently feel you're clairvoyant, you're entitled to any damfool fantasy that blows your apron up. Personally, if a veterinary diagnosis and prescription is involved, I'm going to hear it from the vet, not the owner. Operating on hearsay is a fool's game.

I don't know what's going to happen, but I'm not going to schedule a conference call before the vet even sees my horse.

In the usual order of business, the vet sees the horse, then the vet, farrier, and owner meet to discuss the diagnosis of any pathology, possible methods of remediation, prognosis for recovery, and cost.

When did I say that I was going to read my horse's x-rays?

With reference to radiographs, you wrote, "I'm looking for damage from and/or negative results/changes from poor trimming/shoeing (based on symptoms possibly stemming from the poor trimming/shoeing)." Were you just kidding?

Something is wrong. It's my horse. So, I'm looking to find out what is wrong with him. How will I find that? I'll call the vet. Was it really that difficult to understand?

Unless you are planning on fixing whatever is wrong yourself, you'd best consider involving a farrier in the loop. Most of us unwashed farriers don't play lackey very well and are inclined to tell folks to go pee up a rope when they try to waste our time.

I'm not sure why a farrier couldn't be interviewed.

Most likely, because you, the interviewer, are incapable of assessing the capabilities of any farrier on the basis of an interview, a fact that makes the "interview" a waste of time.

Between appointments. While stuck in traffic. On a Sunday. Super early. Late evenings. There are people out there busier than farriers and they manage to return calls and speak with prospective clients.

As I see it, there's considerable difference between returning a call to determine if a farrier can work another horse into his schedule and wasting his time with a pointless "interview."

[grayarabpony]

The farrier you talked to on the phone sounds like a psycho.

Usually vets are useful in diagnosing a problem, but not necessarily knowledgeable about how to fix said problem.

Neither are all farriers. I wouldn't bother to put a shoe on an unbalanced foot, which would include a foot with underrun heels.

[Beverley]

I sure wouldn't want my farrier attempting to interpret xrays. I'd be delighted if he looked at the xrays with my vet, if the situation called for it. In my own case it happens that they are good friends, so no problem.

However, a passing caution on 'vet recommended' farriers. A fellow boarder had her mare seriously set back, as in, rideable to unrideable for at least a year, because the 'vet recommended' farrier showed up and freelanced with 'his' recommendation, which was sadly a huge failure, and medically, the absolutely wrong thing to do. When horse owner chatted with vet and said, well, what about this farrier, vet said well, he does fine if I am there telling him exactly what to do.

Honestly, in my experience, a good farrier not only doesn't need xrays, but can spot a problem brewing before it might ever show up on an xray. But maybe I've been lucky.

[grayarabpony]

I sure wouldn't want my farrier attempting to interpret xrays. I'd be delighted if he looked at the xrays with my vet, if the situation called for it. In my own case it happens that they are good friends, so no problem.

Honestly, in my experience, a good farrier not only doesn't need xrays, but can spot a problem brewing before it might ever show up on an xray. But maybe I've been lucky.

What farrier wouldn't like to have information about sole depth and coffin bone alignment? The issue wasn't about the farrier interpreting the x-rays anyway, but about using information from the x-rays.

[Beverley]

What farrier wouldn't like to have information about sole depth and coffin bone alignment? The issue wasn't about the farrier interpreting the x-rays anyway, but about using information from the x-rays.


My point, simply put, is that farriers are not trained radiologists. I said nothing about what information would be desirable. And yes, according to phrasing in previous posts, the issue does appear to be about farriers interpreting xrays.

[Foxtrot's]

Here in horseyland there are a lot of vets and a lot of farriers - all very busy. I'm lucky to have a vet and farrier that consider me part of their team. In fact, my farrier is asking me to go back for an update x-ray and I will - someday, when there are no other vet bills to be paid and I am there anyway.

[grayarabpony]

My point, simply put, is that farriers are not trained radiologists. I said nothing about what information would be desirable. And yes, according to phrasing in previous posts, the issue does appear to be about farriers interpreting xrays.

That's because some idgits got off track. Read the OPs post.

[Beverley]

That's because some idgits got off track. Read the OPs post.


I did read the OP's post, and chose to respond to the sidebars. If that bothers you, feel free to ignore my posts.:)

Mind you, as regards the OP's issue, I have not in 50 years of messing with horses 'interviewed' farriers. I decide which farrier to use based on word of mouth from reliable sources, and looking at horses' feet and asking who shod them. If my horse had a specific problem warranting veterinary attention, I'd be going with a farrier that worked with that vet, not expecting some 'new' farrier to get up to speed with the vet. Whether or not, as the OP indicated, the farrier 'flipped out' and said get a prescription from the vet, that farrier based on the limited info in that post is in my opinion correct on the merits- the OP wants to put him between a rock and a hard place, and if he's good, he doesn't need that headache. His advice amounts to getting the vet to recommend a farrier, and that is sound advice.

[grayarabpony]

Mind you, as regards the OP's issue, I have not in 50 years of messing with horses 'interviewed' farriers. I decide which farrier to use based on word of mouth from reliable sources, and looking at horses' feet and asking who shod them. If my horse had a specific problem warranting veterinary attention, I'd be going with a farrier that worked with that vet, not expecting some 'new' farrier to get up to speed with the vet. Whether or not, as the OP indicated, the farrier 'flipped out' and said get a prescription from the vet, that farrier based on the limited info in that post is in my opinion correct on the merits- the OP wants to put him between a rock and a hard place, and if he's good, he doesn't need that headache. His advice amounts to getting the vet to recommend a farrier, and that is sound advice.

Blah, blah, blah...

Why on earth would asking a farrier to follow good veterinary advice be putting him between a rock and a hard place? How is the farrier to know that the vet is automatically going to be wrong? All the vet is likely to give the farrier is an interpretation of the x-rays, with advice to bring the toes and heels back. Your post doesn't make much sense. The farrier's reaction was unprofessional and immature -- hardly sound.

I did read the OP's post, and chose to respond to the sidebars. If that bothers you, feel free to ignore my posts.:)

OK, I'll take you up on that. I've never liked your posts anyway. :):)

[BornToRide]

Blah, blah, blah...

:lol::lol::lol: Couldn't have said it better :D

[CamdenLab]

CamdenLab in gray

I didn't ask the farrier to meet with the vet.

Why not? Teamwork is essential.

I didn't tell the farrier that I was getting a recommendation from the vet, either. Once I said the vet was coming out and was going to take x-rays, the farrier flipped out.

Why did you have the farrier out BEFORE you had the vet take the rads?

Would I want a consult? Sure, if it was warrented.

If you want the vet to read the rads and a mechanic to trim/shoe on the basis of those rads, consultation is always warranted.

I don't even know what's going on in there, so whose to say that they need to speak?

Since farriers can't legally diagnose pathological conditions, if the rads are relevant, the vet's input is essential.

Could be everything is fine, but strained from the under run heels.

Underrun heels are most often indicative of a poor choice of antecedents, existent pathology, poor husbandry, and/or poor trimming/shoing. Whatever the cause, a good team can usually remediate the condition, but most often the fix is not permanent, it requires maintenance.

If there needs to be a consult or meeting, of course I want a farrier who is willing to listen to what the vet has to say.

Unless all concerned have input into the consultation, it's an exercise in futility. There is no captain, everyone on the team is a player, and playing each other's role is verboten.

If the vet and farrier don't need to meet, why not use the x-rays to your advantage as a farrier?

Failing the peer-to-peer exchange of information, how exactly can rads be legally used to any advantage by a farrier?

I'm not going to force my farrier and vet to meet if the vet is simply going to say that it looks like my horse is stressed or strained or whatever from under run heels and the farrier says yeah, so I'll fix that.

That's not how it works, but since you apparently feel you're clairvoyant, you're entitled to any damfool fantasy that blows your apron up. Personally, if a veterinary diagnosis and prescription is involved, I'm going to hear it from the vet, not the owner. Operating on hearsay is a fool's game.

I don't know what's going to happen, but I'm not going to schedule a conference call before the vet even sees my horse.

In the usual order of business, the vet sees the horse, then the vet, farrier, and owner meet to discuss the diagnosis of any pathology, possible methods of remediation, prognosis for recovery, and cost.

When did I say that I was going to read my horse's x-rays?

With reference to radiographs, you wrote, "I'm looking for damage from and/or negative results/changes from poor trimming/shoeing (based on symptoms possibly stemming from the poor trimming/shoeing)." Were you just kidding?

Something is wrong. It's my horse. So, I'm looking to find out what is wrong with him. How will I find that? I'll call the vet. Was it really that difficult to understand?

Unless you are planning on fixing whatever is wrong yourself, you'd best consider involving a farrier in the loop. Most of us unwashed farriers don't play lackey very well and are inclined to tell folks to go pee up a rope when they try to waste our time.

I'm not sure why a farrier couldn't be interviewed.

Most likely, because you, the interviewer, are incapable of assessing the capabilities of any farrier on the basis of an interview, a fact that makes the "interview" a waste of time.

Between appointments. While stuck in traffic. On a Sunday. Super early. Late evenings. There are people out there busier than farriers and they manage to return calls and speak with prospective clients.

As I see it, there's considerable difference between returning a call to determine if a farrier can work another horse into his schedule and wasting his time with a pointless "interview."

Half of your post is unfounded, based on what you wanted to read/hear, not what was actually written or said. You pick arguments without reading what I've written. When did I say the farrier actually came to see my horse? And, trying to tell me what I meant to say, is just . . . assinine.

I'm not sure who you think you are or why you think you're so important, but the bottom line is that it's my horse, I'm the customer, and I have every right to be involved in my horse's care. If the farrier thinks I am infringing on his time, so be it. He can sit at home and write on horsey bulletin boards for hours at a time instead of coming to my barn to take care of my horse. I also have every right to make an educated decision based on interviews, references and the opinions of those people I trust, be it my vet or my trainer. If the farrier doesn't like that, well, he can go pee up a rope himself. There are plenty of farriers in my area who are more than happy to take my money and have me recommend him to my friends -- I just have to pick the one who will do the best job and not treat me as if he's doing me a favor by allowing me to pay him to shoe my horse.

[CamdenLab]

Mind you, as regards the OP's issue, I have not in 50 years of messing with horses 'interviewed' farriers. I decide which farrier to use based on word of mouth from reliable sources, and looking at horses' feet and asking who shod them. If my horse had a specific problem warranting veterinary attention, I'd be going with a farrier that worked with that vet, not expecting some 'new' farrier to get up to speed with the vet. Whether or not, as the OP indicated, the farrier 'flipped out' and said get a prescription from the vet, that farrier based on the limited info in that post is in my opinion correct on the merits- the OP wants to put him between a rock and a hard place, and if he's good, he doesn't need that headache. His advice amounts to getting the vet to recommend a farrier, and that is sound advice.

I did look at horse's feet and asked who shod them. It was this guy.

How did I put him between a rock and a hard place by telling him my vet was taking x-rays on Friday? The farrier did not ask me to get a recommendation from my vet. As I said, the farrier said to get a "prescription" from the vet and then hire any old farrier to do whatever the vet says. It had nothing to do with finding a familiar farrier to work with the specific vet. The farrier was being a wisea$$.

[CamdenLab]

Sounds like he's tired of owners trying to tell him what to do. This means you are unlikely to have a good dialogue with him about what your horse needs, and he's also not likely to appreciate your input. It doesn't make him a bad farrier--just not the farrier for you.

Yes . . . finally someone who gets it! Thank you! :)

[camohn]

My vet and farrier work as a team on my horses. I don't think I'd waste my time with professionals that weren't able to do that. It won't do anything but hurt the horse in the long run.

Sounds like you dodged a bullet. At least he showed you his true colors before wasting your time and money on him.

ditto

[Tamara in TN]

Blah, blah, blah...

Why on earth would asking a farrier to follow good veterinary advice be putting him between a rock and a hard place? How is the farrier to know that the vet is automatically going to be wrong? All the vet is likely to give the farrier is an interpretation of the x-rays, with advice to bring the toes and heels back. Your post doesn't make much sense. The farrier's reaction was unprofessional and immature -- hardly sound.


or it sounds to the new farrier as if the client wants him to "fix" what the other farrier "messed up"...oh and here's the proof that he messed him up in the Xray...

which with a totally new client would make me shy away from them as well...


which is to say, if someone calls me for hay and then proceeded to give me a 15 min lecture on hay and 15 more minutes on how every bale of hay they have ever had in the last 3 years has sucked and all the other farmers and hay dealers have sucked and they are in the process of suing two of them and they will be out to inspect the hay next week....welllllllll.....

do you really think we will be interested in giving them a quote ?? now, that is not to say that CL said or implied this....but it may be that the farrier heard it that way and this was his way of declining the job offer....?

regards

[deltawave]

I wouldn't ask my farrier to expertly interpret an X-ray, nor would I expect my vet to be completely up to date on the very latest in what's available for shoeing therapeutically, n or to put shoes on my horse or trim it. I would expect each type of practitioner to have a working knowledge of the other's field, insofar as it applied to what they do, but their jobs are not interchangeable.

If you need a vet, call a vet. Need a farrier, call a farrier. Need collaboration? Call both and ask them to put their heads together.

[grayarabpony]

or it sounds to the new farrier as if the client wants him to "fix" what the other farrier "messed up"...oh and here's the proof that he messed him up in the Xray...

which with a totally new client would make me shy away from them as well...


which is to say, if someone calls me for hay and then proceeded to give me a 15 min lecture on hay and 15 more minutes on how every bale of hay they have ever had in the last 3 years has sucked and all the other farmers and hay dealers have sucked and they are in the process of suing two of them and they will be out to inspect the hay next week....welllllllll.....

do you really think we will be interested in giving them a quote ?? now, that is not to say that CL said or implied this....but it may be that the farrier heard it that way and this was his way of declining the job offer....?

regards

Geez, more babble. Sorry lady but what you wrote sounds paranoid and crazy. :lol:

So if one farrier messes up your horse you're screwed? :confused:

The OP just wants to get her horse fixed. Attitudes like yours just allow the holier-than-thou to keep their overinflated egos.

[Androcles]

Yes . . . finally someone who gets it! Thank you! :)

Hmm, and I thought you were here asking for advice, not seeing how many would 'get it'.

[Androcles]

Geez, more babble. Sorry lady but what you wrote sounds paranoid and crazy. :lol:



[edit] there are certain kinds of owners that farriers try to avoid, for their own protection. you may be growing your own hay next.

[mvp]

Skirting the train wreck, I think I'm about to move to a new area, so I'll be in a similar situation to the OP.

I'll need a new farrier, a new vet and my current farrier has a fine (international) reputation. My horse, thanks to him, my vets, my listening and to Allah, is not screwed up at present so far as I know.

So if I were the OP, here's how my conversation might go:

"I'm looking for a new farrier because I think my horse's feet could used some correction and I heard you might be able to help."

I'd describe the problem and ASK if, in the farrier's professional opinion, this was likely a result of inappropriate shoeing or trimming, and if better shoeing could, over time, correct the problem. The likely answers are yes, shoeing contributes to the problem or can help it, but so does conformation, so he would need to see the horse.

"Great!" I'd say. "Since this has been going on for awhile and I want to make sure we haven't caused bony changes (or that the coffin bone to fetlock angles are really in line on the inside), I'll get come X-rays done before you come out. We can go from there."

In the meantime, I ask my vet for his ideas about what damage can happen from poor shoeing, what he might suggest as a solution. If I were choosing a new vet, I'd look for someone that was respectful of the farrier's special expertise. I'd personally look for the person who acknowledged that corrective shoeing takes some time-- no single shoeing quick fixes. (Thanks to my current farrier's excellent work on my education), I'd also look for the person that understands that horses' shoeing needs, hooves and x-rays will change (in some pretty "normal" ways) as he ages.

I'd listen to my vet's prescription, ask questions about how (mechanically and physiologically) and why it might work. I'd then have my meeting with the farrier, asking for his view first. If it disagrees with something the vet said, I'd explain the other point of view and ask him about the basis for his opinion.

My job is to make it clear that I want the best for my horse; that I want to be part of the decision (and accept responsibility for the outcome); that we can try one shoeing prescription (or compromise) and always modify it in the future if need be.

If any one flips out: Why? If the farrier recoiled at the idea of X-rays, and I hadn't demonstrated my respect for his expertise, I'd take a shot at smoothing his feathers. Historically, farriers have not gotten the respect they deserve and this dude might be a chip-on-the-shoulder product of that.

If on the other hand, my vet wanted to dictate shoeing from on high, I'd also have a problem. Vets typically don't get a great deal of farrier training in school. In my experience even very good vets have never spoken to me in detail about the aging process and shoeing for longevity in the way that my farrier has. These guys genuinely know some stuff that DVMs don't. Yes, my dude interpret X-rays. I have no problem with anyone putting in their two cents about these pictures.

I go with what I take to be the best information. I'm polite to everyone and give them their due and turf. But, I wouldn't run from a farrier who bristled at an owner who wanted a vet to be part of the team. I'd see if communication could not be worked out. If anyone--farrier, vet, trainer-- wanted carte blanche and no input from anyone else, that person would get a pink slip.

[Tom Stovall]

CamdenLab in gray, stuff deleted

I'm not sure who you think you are or why you think you're so important, but the bottom line is that it's my horse, I'm the customer, and I have every right to be involved in my horse's care.

Quite so: You are the owner and no one has said or implied otherwise; however, you are neither a veterinarian, a radiologist, nor a farrier, you are the owner and your input into your horse's care consists of choosing and funding the support team and providing aftercare. Each team member has a function, but diagnosing pathologies, reading rads and trimming/shoeing is not within your purview as a team member.

If the farrier thinks I am infringing on his time, so be it. He can sit at home and write on horsey bulletin boards for hours at a time instead of coming to my barn to take care of my horse.

Have you stopped to consider that you might be the reason your local farriers might choose to post on a bulletin board, take the kids fishing, or just doze in the shade instead of coming to your barn and shoeing your horse?

I also have every right to make an educated decision based on interviews, references and the opinions of those people I trust, be it my vet or my trainer.

Ownership gives you the "right" to attempt to impose your will on any vet or farrier who will allow you to do so, but that imposition is not conducive to teamwork.

If the farrier doesn't like that, well, he can go pee up a rope himself.

LMAO! Be sure to tell that to your every prospective farrier during your "interview."

There are plenty of farriers in my area who are more than happy to take my money and have me recommend him to my friends

Alas, it appears these legions have shown up missing in your personal search for a good farrier. Perhaps they don't "interview" well.

I just have to pick the one who will do the best job and not treat me as if he's doing me a favor by allowing me to pay him to shoe my horse.

While reality may be somewhat offputting, you will find that any farrier who is capable of doing a good job will probably be doing you a favor by working your horse into his busy schedule, simply because most good farriers stay as busy as they want to be and aren't looking for horses to shoe.

[Tamara in TN]

Geez, more babble. Sorry lady but what you wrote sounds paranoid and crazy. :lol:

So if one farrier messes up your horse you're screwed? :confused:

The OP just wants to get her horse fixed. Attitudes like yours just allow the holier-than-thou to keep their overinflated egos.

I'm sorry that you are not feeling well today...being paranoid of professional complainers who have nothing better to do with their time than ruin you or your business, is called business smarts where I am from....

I can tell in about 6 sentences what sort of a hay client I am talking to....and deal with them accordingly...and some you just wish a good day to them and hang up...

one farrier can mess up lots of stuff...so can one vet...so can one owner...so can one groom ....so can one bag of feed....so can one bale of hay....things happen everywhere and any time...

however, it is the presentation afterward that often is worse than the screw up...my farrier TEACHES the vets at University of TN...I think they even gave him an extra fancy title :)...

but they give him the xrays and say..."ok this is wonky here...what sort of things, in your skill set, can we use to fix this"

it's not "hey,BOY,fetch down your nippers and cut this part off."

see it's about the presentation....and the three groups working as a team, as Tom has tried to say 100 times in the years I have known him....that makes things better for the horse...if any side wants to be Lone Rangers, then the plan fails and things for the horse fail....

regards

[Auventera Two]

I would love it if every horse I trimmed had a fresh set of radiographs to work with. Don't know what that farrier's deal was, but good grief. Run away from that as fast as you can. I've had to work with owners' vets and in each situation, it has worked out very good with everyone happy as far as I know. It doesn't bother me at all when an owner wants me to talk to the vet and see what they say.

Vet + Hoof Care Provider + Owner = Team. Not sure why anyone would have a problem with that? :confused:

[Beverley]

I did look at horse's feet and asked who shod them. It was this guy.

How did I put him between a rock and a hard place by telling him my vet was taking x-rays on Friday? The farrier did not ask me to get a recommendation from my vet. As I said, the farrier said to get a "prescription" from the vet and then hire any old farrier to do whatever the vet says. It had nothing to do with finding a familiar farrier to work with the specific vet. The farrier was being a wisea$$.

Not trying to give you a hard time, but in fairness, we only have your version of the discussion to go on.

Your very first sentence above could be enlightening as to an unpleasant reaction from the prospective farrier. You say he has been shoeing this horse, and then you tell him that you are having the horse's feet xrayed- perhaps implying, whether you meant to or not, that the guy messed up the horse's feet and now you want him to work with a vet to fix them.

I am still of the opinion, no matter how this farrier phrased it, that his advice was sound. If I had a horse's feet in need of medical attention, and no farrier lined up, all the more reason I'd work with the vet to ensure hiring a farrier that can do what the vet id's as needing doing.

And, as has been noted- good farriers are generally much in demand, and can afford to be selective about their clients. Perhaps the way you came across, on the phone, to this prospective farrier led him to conclude that vet involvement or not, he just didn't want to do business with you.

[Beverley]

Vet + Hoof Care Provider + Owner = Team. Not sure why anyone would have a problem with that? :confused:

I don't think anybody does. Not even, probably, the prospective farrier. As noted in my previous post, we only have one side of the story to go on.

[webmistress32]

He flipped out on me and said that if I were going to do what my vet said to do, to just get a prescription from the vet and hire any farrier to do what the vet says. Then, proceeded to tell me that it seems like I'm up at night worrying about my horse's feet and that it wasn't worth it to him to have me as a client. He said that I had my own ideas, then I would have the vet's opinion, so he didn't want to bother with me and my horse.

Freak!

goodbye, there's the door ...

[spaghetti legs]

Agreed with Beverley.

Every farrier i've ever known has been harder to get dialogue out of, than blood from a stone!

My conversations with farriers around here usually go like this
me "hi, such and such recommended you to me, i was wondering if u had any availability to come out and shoe/trim my horses?"
farrier "um.......*pause*.... yeah. that's fine. Hows wednesday?"
me "that's fine, i really appreciate that"
them "click"

then when they arrive it's like
me "can i get you a coffee, or cold drink?"
them "yup."

LOL. Seriously..

[BornToRide]

Your very first sentence above could be enlightening as to an unpleasant reaction from the prospective farrier. You say he has been shoeing this horse, and then you tell him that you are having the horse's feet xrayed- perhaps implying, whether you meant to or not, that the guy messed up the horse's feet and now you want him to work with a vet to fix them.

Read the OP again. I think you misunderstood - she is looking for a new farrier, not questioning the farrier's work!

[Beverley]

Read the OP again. I think you misunderstood - she is looking for a new farrier, not questioning the farrier's work!


How about, you read my post again and see that I was responding to a direct quote by the OP NOT in the original post!:) That particular quote led to my suggestion, as I stated, that WHETHER INTENDED OR NOT, the perception COULD HAVE BEEN that she was questioning the farrier's work.

[BornToRide]

How about, you read my post again and see that I was responding to a direct quote by the OP NOT in the original post!:) That particular quote led to my suggestion, as I stated, that WHETHER INTENDED OR NOT, the perception COULD HAVE BEEN that she was questioning the farrier's work.
:confused: Sounds to me like the OP looked at other horses and seemed to like the work - that's how she found out about him. I still don't get how that leads to "questioning" the farrier's work??!

[Auventera Two]

Half of your post is unfounded, based on what you wanted to read/hear, not what was actually written or said. You pick arguments without reading what I've written. When did I say the farrier actually came to see my horse? And, trying to tell me what I meant to say, is just . . . assinine.

Add him to your ignore list and it will make your posting experience a whole lot more pleasant. Tom Stovall specializes in twisting and contorting posts into something that was not actually written.

I'm not sure who you think you are or why you think you're so important, but the bottom line is that it's my horse, I'm the customer, and I have every right to be involved in my horse's care. If the farrier thinks I am infringing on his time, so be it. He can sit at home and write on horsey bulletin boards for hours at a time instead of coming to my barn to take care of my horse. I also have every right to make an educated decision based on interviews, references and the opinions of those people I trust, be it my vet or my trainer. If the farrier doesn't like that, well, he can go pee up a rope himself. There are plenty of farriers in my area who are more than happy to take my money and have me recommend him to my friends -- I just have to pick the one who will do the best job and not treat me as if he's doing me a favor by allowing me to pay him to shoe my horse.

The best horse owners I have been those that interviewed me on the phone. If a farrier or trimmer cannot devote 15 or 20 minutes to a phone interview by a serious prospective customer, then they shouldn't be in the business. If you are so booked and your time is so valuable that you cannot spare that time, then charge a consultation fee and be compensated for it. Heck, you can even go to Dr Redden for a consultation on your horse, if you pay a fee. I don't see anything wrong with charging the fee. We don't call a doctor on the phone and get 20 minutes of their time for free. We pay an office visit fee and we go in and meet with them. Lots of horses owners would be happy to do this on a highly recommended hoof care provider. But to just say that you don't do this - ever - period - because you don't have time is really unprofessional.

Good business practice is half of a farrier or trimmer's responsibility. Returning phone calls, scheduling time for consultation, paperwork and filing, etc. I cannot fathom how self employed farriers and trimmers get through life without good business practices. :confused: It's a job, just like any other job.

I get a lot of phone calls from people who found my website or from word of mouth. I work a full time day job and I trim on weekends and evenings. I don't have time to answer the phone when it rings but I return the calls on my lunch hour or driving in the car between appointments. Or on weekends. EVERY phone call is answered, even if I get 3 of them a day. I have gotten on the line with a few people who have a zillion questions but they live 1,000 miles away. No secret there that they won't be using and paying for my services. In those situations I politely tell them that unfortunately I can't devote more than 5 minutes to their call because I have paying customers who need phone calls as well. But they can find a lot of info on my website, or they can send me an email and I will try to respond when I have more time.

In my part of the world, at the end of the day, the customer is the boss. I work for them, they give me money for it. So far I've only encountered one owner who has whackadoodle ideas that are not remotely close to being appropriate for her horse's situation. Everyone else is well informed owners who care about their horses and their soundness. They are interested in working as a team.

Over the last year I have gotten so busy I don't know which end is up. :lol: I've taken on a whole lot of new horses and people are ringing my phone off the hook it seems like. The biggest compliment I get from people is the communication and organization. I show up on time, I return phone calls, I work with the vet, and I try to be as polite and professional as possible, keeping in mind that the owner is the boss. I guess its good for my business, however, than some other professionals don't share these same values. ;) :cool:

[BornToRide]

Good business practice is half of a farrier or trimmer's responsibility. Returning phone calls, scheduling time for consultation, paperwork and filing, etc. I cannot fathom how self employed farriers and trimmers get through life without good business practices. :confused: It's a job, just like any other job.

Totally agree. I was 15 minutes late to an appointment once and aplogized. The owner replied that in the farrier world he does not consider that as late , but being on time....:eek: :)

[FreeSpiritAcres]

Hi - have to admit, I'm in the process of finding a new farrier because of similar "stuff" - wanted to have the vet and farrier get together on the phone so they were on the same page and the farrier didn't want to - suffice it to say, a year later (only because farrier is a friend of my mom's - she keeps her horses at my place - and not wanting to sour the family relationship - which WILL happen when I fire the farrier) - I'm looking for a new farrier - he has "rescheduled" me all but lets say, 4 times in the past year and a half - and my horse's feet are still not being managed properly for her personal situation. It's not working conditions - level concrete floor, in the barn, clean stalls, aisle swept, cold beverage waiting - or payment, paid in cash before he leaves EVERY time - or that it's a small one horse place out of the way - we're talking six horses in this barn. I'm so frustrated, I have a call in to my vet for HIS recommendation of a farrier he's worked with who's 1)reliable and 2) knows how to help my mare. She's walking on her tiptoes like a blasted ballerina, poor thing. I'm at the point that if my mom wants to move her horses out of here and not speak to me ever again, fine!

Sorry for the rant, especially as my first post ... :cry:

[Auventera Two]

I don't want to get into the farrier attacking mode, because there are great ones out there. But I have showed up for a first-time appointment more than once to find the owner not there. When they come rolling in 15 minutes later, they are completely shocked that I'm sitting in their driveway. One lady was 30 minutes late because she was just sure I'd be as late as her previous farriers had always been. I was long gone and left her a business card and a bill for mileage and time wasted. They apologize and scramble around trying to get the horse in the barn because they've never had a farrier show up on time. I now tell people "I will be on time. You can be assured of that. So please have your horse in and ready to go at such-n-such time."

The other day at work I got an email from a friend - she said she was inside waiting for the farrier - he was an hour late - and she was the first apointment of the day, at 8:00 in the morning. :lol: She scheduled first thing in the a.m. so she could get it done on time because when she schedules at 4 p.m., he might come rolling in at 6 or 7.

I haven't seen Tom Bloomer post here in awhile but that guy has it together. His website is awesome, his business practices are first class and he sounds like a guy I'd pay good money to have work on my horses. Here's his site: http://blackburnforge.com/ He and his business stand out in a crowd and reading through the pages of his site will show you why. I always trot him out as an example and the poor guy probably thinks I'm his stalker, but seriously, lots of farriers and trimmers could take lessons from him.

[BornToRide]

level concrete floor, And you don't even need a level floor to trim a horse properly ;)

Best wishes to you!

[Beverley]

:confused: Sounds to me like the OP looked at other horses and seemed to like the work - that's how she found out about him. I still don't get how that leads to "questioning" the farrier's work??!

Ah, yes, I think you are right, I misread 'horse's feet' to be 'this horse's feet.' My bad.:) Still, as Tamara articulated- farrier is asked out of the box to work with a vet on fixing a problem that may or may not exist, details unknown because xrays haven't been taken yet- farrier seems to indicate, work with the vet to get a farrier- still looks like sound advice to me no matter how unpleasant the delivery of the message. And then of course, there's the bottom line- if you are interviewing someone, anyone, for any particular job, and you don't like what they have to say, you just don't hire them. Not complicated!

[FreeSpiritAcres]

Thanks, guys, and from what I read just now about Blackburn Forge, they sound like HEAVEN! Unfortunately, I'm out of their service area... :(

Oh, forgot to mention, I keep my horses in for the farrier and am ALWAYS there for appointments - gets frustrating when an hour before the appointment I get the inevitable call that he's "not going to make it today ..."

Not saying he's a bad farrier, just that he's not the right farrier for me. He's welcome to come for my mom's horses if she wants, ... but don't ask me to be the one to "accomodate" him any more...

sorry, getting off topic.

Again, thank you!

[Rick Burten]

Add him to your ignore list and it will make your posting experience a whole lot more pleasant. Tom Stovall specializes in twisting and contorting posts into something that was not actually written.
Demonstrably incorrect.
In my part of the world, at the end of the day, the customer is the boss. I work for them, they give me money for it.
There's your problem. The customer is not your boss. EVER!. Is the pimply-faced teenager who fills your order at McDonald's, to whom you give your money, your boss?
Do your customers pay you a wage or a fee? Do they pay taxes, provide you with health insurance, offer a retirement program or other benefits? Under the IRS standards do you consider yourself an employee or an Independent Contractor/self-employeed? Do you consider the veterinarian, feed supplier, bedding supplier, plumber, electrician, your doctor, your employee?

You provide a service for which you are paid a fee. That alone shows that the customer is not your boss. If you think otherwise, then you need to think again.
Over the last year I have gotten so busy I don't know which end is up. :lol: I've taken on a whole lot of new horses and people are ringing my phone off the hook it seems like. The biggest compliment I get from people is the communication and organization. I show up on time, I return phone calls, I work with the vet, and I try to be as polite and professional as possible, keeping in mind that the owner is the boss. I guess its good for my business, however, than some other professionals don't share these same values. ;) :cool:
Hmmmm, so which is it? On the one hand you indicate that you are your own boss and yet you write that the customer is your boss. No wonder you are so confused......

[Auventera Two]

Demonstrably incorrect.
Well I have a different opinion on that based on the years of history. ;)

There's your problem. The customer is not your boss. EVER!. Is the pimply-faced teenager who fills your order at McDonald's, to whom you give your money, your boss?

Wasn't aware I had a problem. :confused: But thanks for pointing that out, I'd have never known otherwise.... The customer owns the horse, the customer gives me the money. The customer can tell me not to come back. The customer can hand out my business card to others and give me a positive referral, or they can single handedly tarnish my reputation. Yeah, I'd say the customer is in a position of power over me.

Do your customers pay you a wage or a fee? Do they pay taxes, provide you with health insurance, offer a retirement program or other benefits? Under the IRS standards do you consider yourself an employee or an Independent Contractor/self-employeed? Do you consider the veterinarian, feed supplier, bedding supplier, plumber, electrician, your doctor, your employee?

We've been over this before Rick and I believe it's me who always says "you can't fire someone you didn't hire." All the talk about firing a customer or firing a farrier is absurd. You don't "fire" someone, you simply stop using them or stop servicing their account.

By "boss" I do not mean "employer." I mean that at the end of the day the owner owns the horse and is responsible for securing the services of professionals in regard to that horse's care. Regardless of how much you want to Rick, if an owner says "Don't come back to my farm" you can't.

If you disagree and you think that you are always the ultimate boss in that horse's hoof care, then more power to you. Live long and prosper. Rock on. Hail mary and have a beer. I just don't think that way. And interestingly, owners get really relieved when they realize they don't have the ego to deal with anymore. :lol:

You provide a service for which you are paid a fee. That alone shows that the customer is not your boss. If you think otherwise, then you need to think again.

I think enough, thanks.

Hmmmm, so which is it? On the one hand you indicate that you are your own boss and yet you write that the customer is your boss. No wonder you are so confused......

Who is confused? :confused: I sure didn't feel that I was confused. In both portions of my post that you quoted I said the owner is the boss and the customer is the boss. Owner/customer are the same person. Owner, customer, client, whatever term fits your choosing, at the end of the day the human who retains legal ownership of the horse, or otherwise is engaged in a contract of care, is the person who determines what farrier, trimmer, vet, feed supplier, or tack store they use.

You're getting way too hung up on the idea that somebody has to be told what to do, and somebody else has to do what they're told. It's a TEAM effort but at the end of the day, I can only do what the owner okays. They pay for my services and that includes giving them an opinion on what I feel should be done with their horse. If they choose to disregard those opinions and dictate to me what should be done with the horse with no regard for my opinion, then they can find another professional because it's clear that we won't work TOGETHER very well.

But hey, Rick I wear YOUR apron so maybe that mean's you are my boss ;) :lol:

[grayarabpony]

I'm sorry that you are not feeling well today...being paranoid of professional complainers who have nothing better to do with their time than ruin you or your business, is called business smarts where I am from....



I'm feeling fine, thanks. :) No one here is being a professional complainer or paranoid but yourself. :lol:

Someone does a service for you, you pay them, end of story. They don't deserve to put in an exalted position unless they're incredible at what they do.

(PS. I can already tell you're not someone I'd want to do business with.)

[Tamara in TN]

(PS. I can already tell you're not someone I'd want to do business with.)

well sorry about that...if you fit the profile of the "never satisfied customer" we'd both be the better for it...

[grayarabpony]

Such arrogance Rick. I have a real problem with people that I hire thinking they're going to come to my farm and just do whatever they want. Because they can't. :)

[Auventera Two]

I trim for a lady who dumped her last farrier because of ego. She told him - every time you leave here my horse is very sore and it lasts for a week. I don't want you to use the nippers and nip off that big hunk of hoof. I want you to just take the height down a little with the rasp because I have to be able to ride this horse. He smiled and nodded and pulled out the nippers and handed them to her and said "Here you go, lets see you do my job."

That's unacceptable. It was to her too and that's why I trim her horse now.

[JHUshoer20]

That's unacceptable. It was to her too and that's why I trim her horse now. Give yourself a few more years and you too will be that way.:lol:
Right now I guarantee the guy isn't crying over it.
George

[JHUshoer20]

I'm feeling fine, thanks. :) No one here is being a professional complainer or paranoid but yourself. :lol:

Someone does a service for you, you pay them, end of story. They don't deserve to put in an exalted position unless they're incredible at what they do.

(PS. I can already tell you're not someone I'd want to do business with.)
But our right honorable and noble friend Rick Burten has become accustomed to being exalted from high atop Mt Olympus. Are you saying he's not entitled as the rest of the shoeing community so deservingly is??????????
George

[webmistress32]

I have met a lot more arrogant farriers that wanted to do it "their way" than trimmers who were arrogant and wanted to do it their way.

otoh I generally agree with trimmers so maybe that's what makes the communication smoother.

otooh (thinking about it a bit more) - the farriers I dealt with were *all* Arrogant and had Big Egos.

I might also call them some other word I can't mention here (family channel and all.)

good riddance to bad rubbish. whatever they call themselves.

[greysandbays]

I would love it if every horse I trimmed had a fresh set of radiographs to work with.

Would that kinda be overkill in most cases? If the horse doesn't hurt, hasn't hurt, and probably won't hurt unless whoever messes with the feet is an incompetent hack, looking at fancy pictures would be like knowing how many seeds are in an orange you are about to eat.

[Tom Stovall]

Auventera Two in gray, stuff deleted

Add him to your ignore list and it will make your posting experience a whole lot more pleasant. Tom Stovall specializes in twisting and contorting posts into something that was not actually written.

If you can't stand being quoted accurately, the ignore list is your friend.

The best horse owners I have been those that interviewed me on the phone.

So what? The bottom line is that you're a part timer with a steady job who is playing at being a hoof care professional.

If a farrier or trimmer cannot devote 15 or 20 minutes to a phone interview by a serious prospective customer, then they shouldn't be in the business.

LMAO! You are apparently operating under the misconception that every farrier is looking for more horses to shoe/trim. Personally, I usually try to accommodate folks, but I'm not looking for added custom or running a referral service.

If you are so booked and your time is so valuable that you cannot spare that time, then charge a consultation fee and be compensated for it.

I've been charging a consultation fee for evaluating the effect of trimming/shoeing on movement for more than 20 years.

Heck, you can even go to Dr Redden for a consultation on your horse, if you pay a fee. I don't see anything wrong with charging the fee.

I'm told I'm a bit arrogant, but I'm not quite arrogant enough to charge somebody a consultation fee until I actually see the horse and watch it move. :)

Good business practice is half of a farrier or trimmer's responsibility. Returning phone calls, scheduling time for consultation, paperwork and filing, etc. I cannot fathom how self employed farriers and trimmers get through life without good business practices. :confused: It's a job, just like any other job.

It's a job, unlike any other job, and any good farrier can pick and choose his clientele. While this may upset some of the sweetness and light contingent, I'm like many other farriers in that unless it's somebody I want to talk to, or something that interests me, I don't feel I'm under any obligation to return a phone call - or even answer the phone if I don't recognize the number. In reality, most experienced farriers don't suffer fools all that well and are actually quite grateful to have part timers and dilettantes like yourself taking care of that end of the business.

In my part of the world, at the end of the day, the customer is the boss.

In my part of he world, the owner/trainer is always a team member, never the boss - and therein lies the difference between my world and yours.

[Rick Burten]

Such arrogance Rick. I have a real problem with people that I hire thinking they're going to come to my farm and just do whatever they want. Because they can't. :)
I favor arrogance over your brand of ignorance and, since you don't hire the farrier, the veterinarian, the plumber, the electrician, the doctor(if s/he makes house calls), etc., it shouldn't be a problem, should it?

[EqTrainer]

For the OP:

I am sure you did not intend to start a trainwreck :lol: add me to the list that likes to have film of anything I trim. What's not to like?

FWIW - there are *two* Toms that are farriers, that post here. I used to get them confused; now one of them is on ignore so I don't have that problem anymore. Might work for you, too :winkgrin:

[Beverley]

Would that kinda be overkill in most cases? If the horse doesn't hurt, hasn't hurt, and probably won't hurt unless whoever messes with the feet is an incompetent hack, looking at fancy pictures would be like knowing how many seeds are in an orange you are about to eat.


I agree. I truly wouldn't go for film unless a horse is lame, and it needs fixing, and you need the radiographs to make sure it gets fixed right. And conversely, I'd be deeply suspicious of any hoof care professional who couldn't trim or shoe what they're looking at without benefit of xray vision. As my own competent farrier is fond of saying, it ain't rocket science- you look at what God gave you to work with, and then you work with it.

[BornToRide]

Originally Posted by JHUshoer20
Give yourself a few more years and you too will be that way.
Right now I guarantee the guy isn't crying over it.
George

Let me get this straight - you actually see nothing wrong with making horses sore on a regular basis while trimming because attitude is more important to you than doing what's right???!! :rolleyes:

I have met a lot more arrogant farriers that wanted to do it "their way" than trimmers who were arrogant and wanted to do it their way.

otoh I generally agree with trimmers so maybe that's what makes the communication smoother.

otooh (thinking about it a bit more) - the farriers I dealt with were *all* Arrogant and had Big Egos.

I might also call them some other word I can't mention here (family channel and all.)

good riddance to bad rubbish. whatever they call themselves.Yep, yep and yep again. The hoofcare professionals who screw up the horses most tend to have the biggest egos too....pretty sad.

[JHUshoer20]

I'd be deeply suspicious of any hoof care professional who couldn't trim or shoe what they're looking at without benefit of xray vision. As my own competent farrier is fond of saying, it ain't rocket science- you look at what God gave you to work with, and then you work with it.
Agree wholeheartedly:):cool:
George

[sid]

Thinking about retaining a vet or farrier should not be a "VS." thing...an either or. It's a partnership that you are paying for.

Egos get in the way. A good vet will tell you if he/she thinks your farrier is sub-par. A really good farrier will confide with the same information about a particular vet.

It's your job to figure out if it is ego (on the part of either or an old bone being dug up from another client) or is honest.

Ain't easy. Been there. Any professional who instantly becomes defensive and protective is one I will not use. Ego.

[CamdenLab]

Skirting the train wreck, I think I'm about to move to a new area, so I'll be in a similar situation to the OP.

I'll need a new farrier, a new vet and my current farrier has a fine (international) reputation. My horse, thanks to him, my vets, my listening and to Allah, is not screwed up at present so far as I know.

So if I were the OP, here's how my conversation might go:

"I'm looking for a new farrier because I think my horse's feet could used some correction and I heard you might be able to help."

I'd describe the problem and ASK if, in the farrier's professional opinion, this was likely a result of inappropriate shoeing or trimming, and if better shoeing could, over time, correct the problem. The likely answers are yes, shoeing contributes to the problem or can help it, but so does conformation, so he would need to see the horse.

"Great!" I'd say. "Since this has been going on for awhile and I want to make sure we haven't caused bony changes (or that the coffin bone to fetlock angles are really in line on the inside), I'll get come X-rays done before you come out. We can go from there."

In the meantime, I ask my vet for his ideas about what damage can happen from poor shoeing, what he might suggest as a solution. If I were choosing a new vet, I'd look for someone that was respectful of the farrier's special expertise. I'd personally look for the person who acknowledged that corrective shoeing takes some time-- no single shoeing quick fixes. (Thanks to my current farrier's excellent work on my education), I'd also look for the person that understands that horses' shoeing needs, hooves and x-rays will change (in some pretty "normal" ways) as he ages.

I'd listen to my vet's prescription, ask questions about how (mechanically and physiologically) and why it might work. I'd then have my meeting with the farrier, asking for his view first. If it disagrees with something the vet said, I'd explain the other point of view and ask him about the basis for his opinion.

My job is to make it clear that I want the best for my horse; that I want to be part of the decision (and accept responsibility for the outcome); that we can try one shoeing prescription (or compromise) and always modify it in the future if need be.

If any one flips out: Why? If the farrier recoiled at the idea of X-rays, and I hadn't demonstrated my respect for his expertise, I'd take a shot at smoothing his feathers. Historically, farriers have not gotten the respect they deserve and this dude might be a chip-on-the-shoulder product of that.

If on the other hand, my vet wanted to dictate shoeing from on high, I'd also have a problem. Vets typically don't get a great deal of farrier training in school. In my experience even very good vets have never spoken to me in detail about the aging process and shoeing for longevity in the way that my farrier has. These guys genuinely know some stuff that DVMs don't. Yes, my dude interpret X-rays. I have no problem with anyone putting in their two cents about these pictures.

I go with what I take to be the best information. I'm polite to everyone and give them their due and turf. But, I wouldn't run from a farrier who bristled at an owner who wanted a vet to be part of the team. I'd see if communication could not be worked out. If anyone--farrier, vet, trainer-- wanted carte blanche and no input from anyone else, that person would get a pink slip.

Fortunately, the conversations with the other two farriers did go something like this. I like them both and have great recommendations, so I'm just checking a couple additional references on one of them today. They were both excited about having access to the x-rays. I'm really excited that my new dilemma is choosing between two awesome farriers vs. finding an awesome farrier!

I think you're right -- the farrier in my original post has a huge chip on his shoulder and it makes me wonder if he hasn't had his wrists slapped a few times from vets regarding his shoeing practices. I also found out that I'm not the only person he's gone a little postal on.

The vet I'm using is also a farrier. He doesn't practice as a business, but keeps up with continuing ed, etc. as he is a lameness vet. So, I think that between this vet and one of these farriers, I'll end up with a really great course of action for my horse.

Oh, and before someone points out that telling a prospective farrier that their vet is also a farrier might ruffle feathers, the farrier did not know the vet was a farrier, who the vet is or even which clinic the vet is from. We didn't get that far. After I said, "X-rays on Friday . . . " that was the beginning of the end.

[EqTrainer]

I agree. I truly wouldn't go for film unless a horse is lame, and it needs fixing, and you need the radiographs to make sure it gets fixed right. And conversely, I'd be deeply suspicious of any hoof care professional who couldn't trim or shoe what they're looking at without benefit of xray vision. As my own competent farrier is fond of saying, it ain't rocket science- you look at what God gave you to work with, and then you work with it.


While I agree that you have to trim what is in front of you, it would be just silly to not have a peek at film of any foot you are trimming or shoeing. I cannot imagine under what circumstances a farrier or trimmer would not be happy to have them - unless it's because they really don't want their work scrutinized that closely.... it's simply more information, and that is never a bad thing.

And then there is the point that sometimes you shoot film of a foot that looks perfect and the horse is sound (I have seen a lot of PPE's) and there is something in there that really surprises you! Having seen that happen quite a few times, I'm always happy when someone offers to have films taken. There's also the fact that you now have a baseline of where that horse is, at that particular time.

[Tom Stovall]

EqTrainer in gray

While I agree that you have to trim what is in front of you, it would be just silly to not have a peek at film of any foot you are trimming or shoeing.

If a farrier/trimmer trims a hoof on the basis of a radiograph without veterinary evaluation, he has committed a misdemeanor here in Texas; if things go badly south, the charge can be a felony under some circumstances.

I cannot imagine under what circumstances a farrier or trimmer would not be happy to have them -

Rads are a great tool, but their evaluation is the sole province of the veterinarian. As a team member, I'm always open to veterinary input, but reading rads is not LEGALLY within my realm of expertise.

unless it's because they really don't want their work scrutinized that closely....

In the team concept, everyone's work is available for scrutiny.

it's simply more information, and that is never a bad thing.

No ma'am, a radiograph, in and of itself, is NOT information, it's just a digital image. The EVALUATION of the image is information - but that's not in my job description, another member of the team has that responsibility.

And then there is the point that sometimes you shoot film of a foot that looks perfect and the horse is sound (I have seen a lot of PPE's) and there is something in there that really surprises you! Having seen that happen quite a few times, I'm always happy when someone offers to have films taken. There's also the fact that you now have a baseline of where that horse is, at that particular time.

Your point? Who is going to evaluate the images? You or the vet?

[Beverley]

EqTrainer- I think we can agree that radiographs are important when you have a problem to fix. Absent such an issue, honestly, I'd say do without. I have seen too many radiographs of horses that ought to be dead lame, and aren't, and perfectly clean radiographs for dead lame horses. I think if a hoof care professional gets to scrutinizing xrays too closely, you might have a situation where things are overthought, and that might not end well. Don't know if I can articulate this clearly, but to me dependence on radiographs for hoof care is along the same lines of a farrier who might tell me he/she is a corrective shoeing expert and can 'fix' my horse that toes in or out. I would run fast from such an expert. The upshot for me is the danger, if one fixates too much on hoof structure, on failing to see the whole horse and how it uses itself.

And, again, as I think I posted earlier- farriers are not trained to read radiographs and in any situation where views are needed, I would want the vet standing there with the farrier to interpret the views.

[EqTrainer]

Beverly - I see your point.. goodness knows I have seen many a sound horse that should have been lame according to his xrays!

But unfortunately sometimes hoof imbalance can only be seen on radiograph and the wear and tear imbalance causes to joints is not seen today.. or maybe even tomorrow.. by the time the horse is actually lame, the damage is done and it cannot be easily fixed, if at all. I really do think that most of the time the hoof gives the trimmer/farrier all the markers they need to do a good job - but anytime I have a chance to check my work against hard evidence, or that of someone shoeing my horses, I would consider that a positive thing. Personally as a trimmer I LOVE to see film of my work, because I trim a lot of pathologies and just plain wierd feet, and I usually have a pretty strong idea of what I would see inside there. It's great to get to actually do that.

Sure, you *could* get into a situation where someone chased something they saw on film.. but IMO the positives far outweigh the negatives. Of course we are all entitled to our opinions :)

Regarding vets reading film versus trimmers/farriers - the way we do it here is that my vet takes the film, she officially reads it, and we discuss what we sees. Usually we are all there when this happens (the vet, the owner and I) but if I'm not there, she calls me and we talk about them and she will email them to me if the owner has given permission. Or the owner sends them by email if she can do it quicker.

I think having a vet and farrier/trimmer that work well together is so important. I have been on both sides of this, as an owner, and I really feel for people who are stuck in that bad spot between the vet and farrier. Often the option everyone advises - to fire them both, or whichever one is being difficult - is not a good option - no matter how badly one would like to do it!

[Rick Burten]

And, again, as I think I posted earlier- farriers are not trained to read radiographs and in any situation where views are needed, I would want the vet standing there with the farrier to interpret the views.
So what is one to do when the vet misses a fracture of the wing of p3 and the owner says "Hey doc, what's going on there"?[pointing at the fracture] and the vet says, 'Nothing'. And the farrier(s) whe he/they see the rads, say "Isn't that a fracture of the lateral wing of P3?" and it turns out that both the owner and the farrier(s) are correct? (This is a true story that happened within the last month)

Here's the rad:

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m129/RickB_04/fractured%20p3/fracturedp3.jpg

The veterinarian also failed to note the broken back phalangeal alignment.........

What's a farrier to do??

[elio]

My vet and farrier work as a team on my horses. I don't think I'd waste my time with professionals that weren't able to do that. It won't do anything but hurt the horse in the long run.

Sounds like you dodged a bullet. At least he showed you his true colors before wasting your time and money on him.


Second that emotion!!!!!!! My farrier and vet work together! :yes:

[Beverley]

But unfortunately sometimes hoof imbalance can only be seen on radiograph and the wear and tear imbalance causes to joints is not seen today.. or maybe even tomorrow.. by the time the horse is actually lame, the damage is done and it cannot be easily fixed, if at all.

Regarding vets reading film versus trimmers/farriers - the way we do it here is that my vet takes the film, she officially reads it, and we discuss what we sees. Usually we are all there when this happens (the vet, the owner and I) but if I'm not there, she calls me and we talk about them and she will email them to me if the owner has given permission. Or the owner sends them by email if she can do it quicker.

I think having a vet and farrier/trimmer that work well together is so important. I have been on both sides of this, as an owner, and I really feel for people who are stuck in that bad spot between the vet and farrier. Often the option everyone advises - to fire them both, or whichever one is being difficult - is not a good option - no matter how badly one would like to do it!

We certainly agree that the vet/farrier teamwork when called for, and the protocol you describe with the film, is a good thing. However, your point about using film as 'early detection' touches on my earlier point amounting to fixing something that ain't broke, even if the film says it is.

So we probably still disagree to some extent, but isn't it pleasant to do so without being disagreeable.:)

[Beverley]

So what is one to do when the vet misses a fracture of the wing of p3 and the owner says "Hey doc, what's going on there"?[pointing at the fracture] and the vet says, 'Nothing'. And the farrier(s) whe he/they see the rads, say "Isn't that a fracture of the lateral wing of P3?" and it turns out that both the owner and the farrier(s) are correct? (This is a true story that happened within the last month)

Here's the rad:

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m129/RickB_04/fractured%20p3/fracturedp3.jpg

The veterinarian also failed to note the broken back phalangeal alignment.........

What's a farrier to do??

A farrier would, I think, say to himself/herself, life's a beach, and not all vets are competent to read radiographs, just as all who advertise that they are farriers or trimmers are not competent to engage in hoof care professionally. I could share with you the doctors that didn't manage to pick up on my Mom's fractured vertebrae in the wake of Hurricane Ike in Houston last fall til toward the end of her 3rd day in the hospital.

Stuff happens. In the case you cite, I suppose if I were the owner of the horse I wouldn't be rushing to use that vet again. Also, all vets have strengths and weaknesses- in the 70s back east, my vet was the best reproductive guy in the several state region, but he was, by his own admission, a lousy 'leg man.' I like a vet who is up front with his/her weaknesses, myself. And, more than once over the past 3 or 4 decades, but thankfully not too often, I've had the vet (who knew my farrier) simply say, consult with the farrier, he can probably resolve this better than I can.

[decorum]

So what is one to do when the vet misses a fracture of the wing of p3 and the owner says "Hey doc, what's going on there"?[pointing at the fracture] and the vet says, 'Nothing'. And the farrier(s) whe he/they see the rads, say "Isn't that a fracture of the lateral wing of P3?" and it turns out that both the owner and the farrier(s) are correct? (This is a true story that happened within the last month)

Here's the rad:

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m129/RickB_04/fractured%20p3/fracturedp3.jpg

The veterinarian also failed to note the broken back phalangeal alignment.........

What's a farrier to do??



Stovall would say it's none of his business, he can't legally read rads. ;)

Ann Szolas

[Tom Stovall]

decorum in gray

Stovall would say it's none of his business, he can't legally read rads. ;)

Better stick to trying to convince folks you usta be a shoer, realized shoes are evil, and resolved to become a trimmer as penance for your shoeing sins - you ain't much of a prognosticator.

When I think a vet has missed something reading a radiograph or in making a diagnosis, I ask; similarly, if I think a particular trimming/shoeing protocol is warranted, my opinion is always open to question. When the owner-trainer/vet/farrier are all involved in treating/palliating pathologies of the hoof, the object of the exercise is to fix the horse. Given your lack of background and inexperience, you probably wouldn't understand, but it's amazing what can be accomplished when everyone leaves their ego at the door, nobody is "boss," and no one's opinion is sacrosanct. We all make mistakes, but when everyone on the team has input, they seldom affect the horse.

Since you are a washed-in-the-blood, bona-fide, card-carrying, rootin' tootin', allegedly former farrier, who has seen the light and is now spreading the anti-scientific, guru-driven, trimming gospel of the BUA, you can be excused for being unaware of the team concept. :)

[Auventera Two]

EqTrainer in gray

While I agree that you have to trim what is in front of you, it would be just silly to not have a peek at film of any foot you are trimming or shoeing.

If a farrier/trimmer trims a hoof on the basis of a radiograph without veterinary evaluation, he has committed a misdemeanor here in Texas; if things go badly south, the charge can be a felony under some circumstances.

I'd love to see legal documentation to back up that claim. Never heard of such a thing before. Thanks.

[grayarabpony]

Stovall would say it's none of his business, he can't legally read rads. ;)

Ann Szolas

OK that's funny. :lol:

Obviously in a case like that the owner needs to realize that he or she needs a new vet. Perhaps the farrier could help the owner in that regard, but the owner probably figured it out for herself.

[HoustonFarrier]

I'd love to see legal documentation to back up that claim. Never heard of such a thing before. Thanks.

From the Texas State Board of Veterinary Medical Examiners...

(5) "Practice of veterinary medicine" means:

(A) the diagnosis, treatment, correction, change, manipulation, relief, or prevention of animal disease, deformity, defect, injury, or other physical condition, including the prescription or administration of a drug, biologic, anesthetic, apparatus, or other therapeutic or diagnostic substance or technique;



http://www.tbvme.state.tx.us/documents/vetact/Vet%20Act.pdf

Steve

[BornToRide]

That's really wide open to interpretation isn't it! I suspect that the scenario is similar in most States.

[HoustonFarrier]

That's really wide open to interpretation isn't it! I suspect that the scenario is similar in most States.

I don't want to be the court case to find out. When I look at radiographs...I ALWAYS have a vet next to me. Period.

Steve

[rmh]

From that paragraph it could be construed that most hoof care providers are practicing veterinary medicine.

[HoustonFarrier]

From that paragraph it could be construed that most hoof care providers are practicing vetinary medicine.

There is a paragraph further down in document link I posted that talks about shoeing horses, and it's "general" exemptions. It too, is vague, and open to interpretation.

Steve

[BornToRide]

From that paragraph it could be construed that most hoof care providers are practicing veterinary medicine.
That was my thought as well.

[decorum]

decorum in gray

Stovall would say it's none of his business, he can't legally read rads. ;)

Better stick to trying to convince folks you usta be a shoer, realized shoes are evil, and resolved to become a trimmer as penance for your shoeing sins - you ain't much of a prognosticator.

When I think a vet has missed something reading a radiograph or in making a diagnosis, I ask; similarly, if I think a particular trimming/shoeing protocol is warranted, my opinion is always open to question. When the owner-trainer/vet/farrier are all involved in treating/palliating pathologies of the hoof, the object of the exercise is to fix the horse. Given your lack of background and inexperience, you probably wouldn't understand, but it's amazing what can be accomplished when everyone leaves their ego at the door, nobody is "boss," and no one's opinion is sacrosanct. We all make mistakes, but when everyone on the team has input, they seldom affect the horse.

Since you are a washed-in-the-blood, bona-fide, card-carrying, rootin' tootin', allegedly former farrier, who has seen the light and is now spreading the anti-scientific, guru-driven, trimming gospel of the BUA, you can be excused for being unaware of the team concept. :)



I'm glad you cleared that up and now say that you would actually give your opinion on rads. I was starting to get the impression that you would meekly do whatever the vet told you regardless of what your own opinion was. Good to hear you actually are part of the team.

And where the heck did you get all that crap in the last paragraph?

Ann Szolas

[Tom Stovall]

Auventera Two in gray

I'd love to see legal documentation to back up that claim. Never heard of such a thing before. Thanks.

As an addendum to Steve's post, the civil and criminal penalties for practicing veterinary medicine without a license in Texas are as follows:

[excerpted from the Texas Veterinary Licensing Act]

(2) Violation of this provision constitutes a class A misdemeanor.

14(d) A person not licensed under this Act who violates this Act or a rule adopted by the Board under this Act is subject to a civil penalty of $1,000 for each day of violation.

Particularly egregious violations can be prosecuted as a felony under Texas animal cruelty statutes, a possibility that makes most farriers here in Texas VERY careful to obtain veterinary imprimatur before undertaking any purposeful invasion of sensitive tissue. :)

[Tom Stovall]

decorum in gray

I'm glad you cleared that up and now say that you would actually give your opinion on rads. I was starting to get the impression that you would meekly do whatever the vet told you regardless of what your own opinion was. Good to hear you actually are part of the team.

LMAO! Had you bothered to read for comprehension, you'd have known it from the git-go.

And where the heck did you get all that crap in the last paragraph?

From you. :)

[Auventera Two]

Auventera Two in gray

I'd love to see legal documentation to back up that claim. Never heard of such a thing before. Thanks.

As an addendum to Steve's post, the civil and criminal penalties for practicing veterinary medicine without a license in Texas are as follows:

[excerpted from the Texas Veterinary Licensing Act]

(2) Violation of this provision constitutes a class A misdemeanor.

14(d) A person not licensed under this Act who violates this Act or a rule adopted by the Board under this Act is subject to a civil penalty of $1,000 for each day of violation.

Particularly egregious violations can be prosecuted as a felony under Texas animal cruelty statutes, a possibility that makes most farriers here in Texas VERY careful to obtain veterinary imprimatur before undertaking any purposeful invasion of sensitive tissue. :)

And who determines that a farrier or trimmer looking at a set of radiographs and then trimming the horse constitutes "veterinary medicine." Please provide legal documentation that specifies "trimming hooves with the aid of radiographs is practicing veterinary medicine."

And where did anyone mention "invasion of sensitive tissue" except for you? Nobody said anything about cutting into sensitive tissue. The discussion was about looking at a set of radiographs before trimming a horse's hoof.

Thanks.

[grayarabpony]

OK that last sentence in Tom's post was funny too.

Wow, looks like we're all practicing veterinary medicine. :rolleyes:

[JSwan]

From that paragraph it could be construed that most hoof care providers are practicing veterinary medicine.

In some places equine dentristy is an issue, trimming/shoeing is an issue, "alternative" medicine is an issue, equine massage is an issue

Guess a person could assert that the "mean greedy vets" want all the money and power to themselves.

Or maybe it's that some practices are a bit of a grey area that merit some regulation, perhaps a licensing system. For the benefit of the horse as well as the consumer. Or maybe that some aspects of care overlap a little - but that can be a strength and a positive - not a source of conflict.

Ensuring the well-being and overall welfare of the horse is best accomplished by forming a partnership with qualified and reputable professionals and laypeople.

Anyway - that's the way I've always approached it. Caregivers who disparage each other or run each other down are useless to me - because in the end the needs of the horse are not being met.

[cloudyandcallie]

Second that emotion!!!!!!! My farrier and vet work together! :yes:

Yes. I wouldn't have a vet or farrier who didn't want to work together for the benefit of the horse. I've seen egos and bigger egos, but I've been lucky that my vet and my farrier want to help the horse, not stroke the ego.

[Tom Stovall]

Auventera Two in gray

And who determines that a farrier or trimmer looking at a set of radiographs and then trimming the horse constitutes "veterinary medicine."

As with any other crime, anyone can report a suspected violation. Once reported, the decision to prosecute is the province of the district attorney in the county in which the violation is alleged. If the DA decides to prosecute, the accused is arrested and taken to jail. Once jailed, the accused is entitled to legal representation and a jury trial, although the accused can waive a jury trial and have the judge hear the evidence and render a decision.

Please provide legal documentation that specifies "trimming hooves with the aid of radiographs is practicing veterinary medicine."

Read the Act! Radiographs are a diagnostic tool and according the Act, diagnosis is the sole province of licensed veterinarians. Since you didn't mention any veterinary evaluation of the rads, apparently you feel, as did Tree, that you are above the law, fully capable of evaluating radiographs and trimming a foot on the basis of your personal evaluation of those radiographs, and have no need for veterinary input. If you're really interested and not just breaking wind to hear yourself fart, you might ask your attorney to read the statute and give you his opinion as to whether or not someone who is trimming hooves with the aid of radiographs and without veterinary evaluation is practicing veterinary medicine.

I did.

And where did anyone mention "invasion of sensitive tissue" except for you?

Drat! Did I miss your elevation to conversational hall monitor?

Nobody said anything about cutting into sensitive tissue. The discussion was about looking at a set of radiographs before trimming a horse's hoof.

This end of the discussion is about farriers/trimmers possibly practicing veterinary medicine without a license. You asked about applicable Texas law: I answered.

Thanks.

You're welcome.

[Auventera Two]

Again, who said anything about DIAGNOSING? You're making up a lot of assumptions about what a person is looking at radiographs for. Looking at radiographs to check solar depth, or to check balance, or to see where the bone is in the foot is not "diagnosing" anything.

Aren't you diagnosing a horse when you say he has crushed heels or navicular syndrome or founder? Are you then not prescribing a method of remedy - a specific shoeing protocol? If you use a T-Square, or take photographs and put them on computer software and draw lines on them to better evaluate balance, is this not also considered a diagnostic tool? What about people who use the Eponatech software? Are they also ilegally using diagnostic tools? What about using a weight tape to determine that the animal is overweight and should loose a few pounds because he's laminitic? Is that also ilegal in your state?

What you posted is so vague and so open to interpretation that I cannot imagine why you are a farrier at all. Looks to me like ANYTHING you do, including using trimming tools to fix a foot problem is setting yourself up for a felony conviction. Why on earth do you take ANY chances at all? Why don't you trim every horse under the oversight of a veterinarian? Why on earth do you even take a chance on going to a farm by yourself and performing farrier work? :confused:

[rmh]

Hoof testers are a diagnostic tool. Does that fall under veterinary medicine? I know some of these questions are inane but the broad spectrum of the statue generates this discussion. Since the vet takes the rads is not a reading done? I know some vets are better at x-ray interpretation than others. But with time spent under the tutelage of a vet or x-ray tech a lay person can get fairly adept at reading films. I guess the contention is what is done with that knowledge. Team work is the best approach. It eliminates the gray areas. I think a lot of vets would like the hoof care person to decide the treatment needed but make sure all are on the same wave length with diagnosis. If nothing else it covers their a** if a mistake in the treatment takes place.

[rmh]

I can't see a problem with someone using radiographs to see what is happening in the bony column or within the hoof capsule.

[grayarabs]

Kind of a different slant: years ago when my horse foundered - was a weekend - had to use a vet I did not know - rads showed rotation - she suggested a farrier she worked with and said she would have the rads for him to look at. Her farrier and I set an appointment for a couple of days later. He arrived and said that he had gone to the vet's office to look at the rads - and for whatever reason - either she was not there or the rads not there (?) -so he effectively said he could/would not shoe my horse. I could tell he was upset even though he did not say very much. I thought it was very nice that he drove all the way to meet me anyway, even though he knew he was not going to be able to work on my horse.
FWIW this was the first Hispanic farrier I ever used. Re-scheduled and he shod my horse - really pretty much the same shoeing package he had had but he put in impression material.
Now looking back at this I think two things: the only reason I called him was because the vet recommended him - thereby I am thinking he had an obligation to shoe/whatever based on what they discussed once they got together. (assuming they did). I don't know - if I had shown the rads (which I never received a copy of anyway/email/whatever) to the farrier I had been using - who had no relationship to the new vet I was using - well I don't know - I assume he would have seen the rotation etc and shod as he saw fit.
Second point: if the vet recommended farrier had pulled me aside and said - I haven't seen the rads but I can see that your horse's RF foot is really bad ie oval in shape and high-heeled - and if he had with him some case studies, photos and had explained that by pulling the shoes and lowering the heel and backing up the toe - and using some kind of protection - boots/styrofom? - I know I would have had a "lightbulb" moment and said - yes let's do that PLEASE! Just an explanation that the coffin bone was pointing down and that lowering the high heel/s could effect a change for the better - I would have understood. I doubt that method was in his mind anyway - and since he was working "under a vet" he could not go against whatever she had recommended. Horse further rotated and I lost him. I was not educated enough in regards to founder - my fault - and anyway in a panic - but I learned my lesson and started studying hoofcare, etc.
The point is to educate yourself and not depend on what the vet says or what the farrier says. Study so that hoofcare is not a mystery to you - will help in the decisions you make in regards to your horse.

[Tom Stovall]

Auventera Two in gray

Again, who said anything about DIAGNOSING?

With reference to radiographs, the terms, evaluating, diagnosing, and reading are used synonymously.

You're making up a lot of assumptions about what a person is looking at radiographs for.

Better to be proactive instead of reactive when it comes to obeying the law.

Looking at radiographs to check solar depth, or to check balance, or to see where the bone is in the foot is not "diagnosing" anything.

Most dictionaries define "diagnose" as "to determine or distinguish the nature of a problem." You can plead ignorance, but, if you're checking solar depth or trying to determine the relationship of the P3 to the wall, you are most assuredly attempting to "diagnose or distinguish."

Aren't you diagnosing a horse when you say he has crushed heels or navicular syndrome or founder?

When I use such terms specific to an individual, I'm invariably repeating a veterinary diagnosis, not making a diagnosis.

Are you then not prescribing a method of remedy - a specific shoeing protocol?

Various shoeing methods are within the realm of expertise of farriers and are specifically mentioned as NOT being considered the practice of veterinary medicine in the Texas statutes.

If you use a T-Square, or take photographs and put them on computer software and draw lines on them to better evaluate balance, is this not also considered a diagnostic tool?

What about people who use the Eponatech software?

Are they also ilegally using diagnostic tools?

In realpolitik, the legality of one's use of such tools - as well as radiographs - would probably depend on whether the veterinary community chose to take issue with their use. If the State Board decided to take issue with the practice, the civil penalty for practicing veterinary medicine without a license is $1,000 a day and the mere prospect of such a hefty fine turns my caca to agua. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be a test case.

What about using a weight tape to determine that the animal is overweight and should loose a few pounds because he's laminitic? Is that also ilegal in your state?

With similar logic, one might ask, "If your aunt had different plumbing, would she be your uncle?"

What you posted is so vague and so open to interpretation that I cannot imagine why you are a farrier at all.

I didn't write the statutes, but I do try to obey them.

Looks to me like ANYTHING you do, including using trimming tools to fix a foot problem is setting yourself up for a felony conviction.

Did you miss the part about horseshoeing being mentioned in the Act as not being considered the practice of veterinary medicine? On the other hand, a strasserite who posted pictures of bloody feet on the internet might find herself al caliche here in Texas because somebody would make it a point to get the State Board on board.

Why on earth do you take ANY chances at all?

I try not to take chances beyond those normally associated with farriery.

Why don't you trim every horse under the oversight of a veterinarian?

Why would I require veterinary oversight in the normal course of my duties? I'm a farrier, not a trimmer.:)

Why on earth do you even take a chance on going to a farm by yourself and performing farrier work?

LMAO! Since I've retired, about the only place I shoe anything is at a vet clinic. Even when I was shoeing every day, I was never much on working at horse farms and public stables - I've always preferred race tracks, rodeos, horse shows, and vet clinics.

[Auventera Two]

So you have NEVER in your life looked at a horse that belonged to a client and said "This horse has crushed heels" unless a vet previously did an exam on the horse and determined that it has crushed heels, and you talked to the vet and verified that the vet did indeed diagnose the horse with crushed heels?

You would never ever look at a new horse for the first time and say "Hmmm, his heels are underrun and his toe is long." You would require the owner to get a vet out and have the vet look at the horse and tell you that the heels are underrun and the toe is long, and THEN you could merely agree with what the vet said and go to work?

So you have a vet look at EVERY horse EVERY time before you trim if there is anything at all that is not perfect (thin soles, long toe, overlaid bars, thrush).......:confused: Wow, sucks for your clients. That's a lot of money if the vet has to diagnose and confirm every little change the farrier wants to make before it can be done.

[bntnail]

AT,
If the horse isn't lame then no need to say much of anything. Do your job and the customer will most likely notice the improvement. If it is lame, get the vet.

[Auventera Two]

How silly! The horse doesn't have to be lame for me to say I want to work on backing up the toe a bit, or that the horse has a little thrush that we need to clean up. Horses can endure a whole lot of hoof distortion or infection that needs to be fixed, before they become lame.

[bntnail]

It's not silly.:winkgrin:I don't have time to go into a long conversation as to how I'm going to fix every problem each individual horse a customer has.If asked, I'll give an opinion and recommend asking their vet. Most minor problems don't warrant much conversation considering I'm going to address them anyway w/ proper hoofcare. If the horse is lame,now that's a different story.

[Tom Stovall]

Auventera Two in gray

So you have NEVER in your life looked at a horse that belonged to a client and said "This horse has crushed heels" unless a vet previously did an exam on the horse and determined that it has crushed heels, and you talked to the vet and verified that the vet did indeed diagnose the horse with crushed heels?

If the horse presents SOUND, I might say something like, "I'm going to try to help this fellow move a little better," but I don't diagnose pathological conditions because that's not in my job description - or yours.

You would never ever look at a new horse for the first time and say "Hmmm, his heels are underrun and his toe is long."

When a horse presents SOUND, I simply do whatever I feel is necessary to enable the horse to do whatever it does as best it possibly can within the parameters of its particular discipline. When a horse presents LAME, I ask the client to obtain a veterinary diagnosis because a correct diagnosis is the first step in the remediation/palliation of any pathology. Other than the necessity of assessing the initial presentation as sound/lame, I don't play vet, but I do tend to err on the side of caution.

You would require the owner to get a vet out and have the vet look at the horse and tell you that the heels are underrun and the toe is long, and THEN you could merely agree with what the vet said and go to work?

I don't work on lame horses with undiagnosed problems because I consider doing so to be unethical. How about you? Whatever the appearance of the horse's hooves, do you feel its ethical to work on a lame horse with undiagnosed problems?

So you have a vet look at EVERY horse EVERY time before you trim if there is anything at all that is not perfect (thin soles, long toe, overlaid bars, thrush).......:confused: Wow, sucks for your clients. That's a lot of money if the vet has to diagnose and confirm every little change the farrier wants to make before it can be done.

Please don't continue to play the fool, it's unbecoming and makes you look rather silly.

[Auventera Two]

But maybe the horse isn't as sound as you thought he was and you just worked on a horse that had an undiagnosed condition. So who determines that the horse is sound and void of pathology? You or the vet? If you decide horse is sound but horse really isn't sound, then you just told the owner that YOU proclaim horse to be sound. So you just opened yourself up for another lawsuit by not getting a vet to tell you first that the horse is indeed sound.

The whole thing is rather stupid Tom. :rolleyes:

[Androcles]

There is a paragraph further down in document link I posted that talks about shoeing horses, and it's "general" exemptions. It too, is vague, and open to interpretation.

Steve


And very deliberately so. The vets will basically leave farriers alone, but have left themselves the means to go after barefooters with this language, if they so choose.

for instance, Pete Ramey with his website name alone, could be considered in violation of The Act.

I'm really surprised this wasn't covered in the School of Equine Podiatry (sorry if I got the name wrong), as this very much affects barefoot trimmers.

[EqTrainer]

Finally, a somewhat valid reason as to why most farriers only grunt rather than talk. :lol:

[Tom Stovall]

Auventera Two in gray

But maybe the horse isn't as sound as you thought he was and you just worked on a horse that had an undiagnosed condition.

Sound is as sound does.

So who determines that the horse is sound and void of pathology? You or the vet?

Do you really enjoy playing the fool? Do you really think that every horse that walks up sound is "void of any pathology"?

If you decide horse is sound but horse really isn't sound, then you just told the owner that YOU proclaim horse to be sound.

LMAO! Whatever gave you the patently absurd idea that I'd ever TELL an owner their horse was sound? Are you smoking something?

So you just opened yourself up for another lawsuit by not getting a vet to tell you first that the horse is indeed sound.

No ma'am, nobody ever gets into trouble by staying within his job description, shoeing SOUND horses and culling horses that walk up LAME without benefit of veterinary diagnosis.

The whole thing is rather stupid Tom. :rolleyes:

Staying within one's job description seem "stupid" to a part-time dilettante playing at being a "hoof care provider" - but the concept has served me well for much longer than you've been housebroke. :)

[Tom Bloomer]

And you don't even need a level floor to trim a horse properly ;)

Best wishes to you!
True, but if your tool box is on wheels and it keeps rolling away from you or falling over while you're working . . . :mad:

[BornToRide]

True, but if your tool box is on wheels and it keeps rolling away from you or falling over while you're working . . . :mad:What, the wheels don't have a built in stopper??! :winkgrin:

[Tom Bloomer]

Originally Posted by Tom Bloomer, CF, RJF
True, but if your tool box is on wheels and it keeps rolling away from you or falling over while you're working . . . :mad:

What, the wheels don't have a built in stopper??! :winkgrin:
Farrier tool boxes come with advanced "horsemanship instincts."

My tool box is in the habit of rolling up and "attacking" horses with bad ground manners. If it had wheel stops, it couldn't roll away from horses with good ground manners. The box KNOWS the difference. The box does its job without empathy, tolerance, or concern for politically correct, anthropomorphic twaddle.

Over the years "the box" has taught me to "read horses" and assess ground manners with great accuracy. I can look at a horse for 10 seconds and tell whether or not my box will attack that particular horse.

Some horse owners are "offended" when my tool box "points out" their horse's bad ground manners. For business reasons, I practice my craft with "political correctness" and keep the box away from horses with bad ground manners. :yes:

[Tamara in TN]

business reasons, I practice my craft with "political correctness" and keep the box away from horses with bad ground manners. :yes:

you are too funny....I got a majikal pair of farrier chaps...complete with dried cement and worn leather insets and smelling like feet...got a good deal on it from my farrier...now, I about have the swagger down pat, so the horses cannot tell me from him...

and they will always behave as long as I wear my majikal chaps....:)

best

[Auventera Two]

And very deliberately so. The vets will basically leave farriers alone, but have left themselves the means to go after barefooters with this language, if they so choose.

for instance, Pete Ramey with his website name alone, could be considered in violation of The Act.

I'm really surprised this wasn't covered in the School of Equine Podiatry (sorry if I got the name wrong), as this very much affects barefoot trimmers.

It WAS. ;) In depth as well. I know my boundaries and my job description. I was just trying to squeeze some information out of Stovall but that didn't work. :lol:

[grayarabpony]

Farrier tool boxes come with advanced "horsemanship instincts."

My tool box is in the habit of rolling up and "attacking" horses with bad ground manners. If it had wheel stops, it couldn't roll away from horses with good ground manners. The box KNOWS the difference. The box does its job without empathy, tolerance, or concern for politically correct, anthropomorphic twaddle.

Over the years "the box" has taught me to "read horses" and assess ground manners with great accuracy. I can look at a horse for 10 seconds and tell whether or not my box will attack that particular horse.

Some horse owners are "offended" when my tool box "points out" their horse's bad ground manners. For business reasons, I practice my craft with "political correctness" and keep the box away from horses with bad ground manners. :yes:

Ok this is funny also. My first impulse was to want one of those, then on second thought I realized it would probably scare the pony out of her wits, and the horse would wise up and kick it when I wasn't looking.

[rmh]

More that likely these regulations were enacted long before "barefooters" came along. It is just of a way of a profession trying to keep control and what they want to address at different times.

[HoustonFarrier]

More that likely these regulations were enacted long before "barefooters" came along. It is just of a way of a profession trying to keep control and what they want to address at different times.

I think a BIG impetus was farriers beginning to get too liberal with giving sedatives...and the subsequent wrecks and deaths that resulted from improper injection, improper dose, etc. If you try to dileniate EVERY single instance of practive/behavior, the law would be VOLUMES....so some vagueness is needed.

Then you have the whole area of "diagnosing" pathologies, and what happens when the farrier is wrong to the extent he/she causes more damage/death.

Personally, I am VERY careful in my practice to leave the diagnosis to the vet. Now, in common things like underrun heels, long toes.....I CAN make necessary maintenance measures...but even when I see what I KNOW is an obvious founder......I tell the client ..."Hey, we need the vet here ASAP, I'm pretty sure your horse is foundering". Since I know most of the vets, when the client calls, I am there and tell the vet what I see, and say "I'm putting them in styrfoam till you get here"

Steve

[merrygoround]

Rumble. rumble, crash. Trainwrck of massive dimensions.

I really like my farrier, he and my vet get along very nicely in my horsey sand box. :)

[EqTrainer]

My hoof stand also has majikal properties, as it slips out from under the feet of naughty horses and rolls under them, implying a belly attack is imminent if the horse is misbehaving :lol: I just stand back and watch it unfold from a safe distance :lol:

[BornToRide]

I think a BIG impetus was farriers beginning to get too liberal with giving sedatives...and the subsequent wrecks and deaths that resulted from improper injection, improper dose, etc.
SteveOMG, I had no idea this was done more regularly. I can see the need in extreme cases maybe, but not on a regular basis for lack of proper training!:eek: