"Worried Mouth" ?

[BaileyTW]

OK, so my horse, Baloo, has had this noisy habit since before I got him. It is driving myself, my instructor, and anyone I ride with insane, plus its not a good behaviour.

In the cross ties he stands there (or dances there) and whips his tongue halfway up his face and clicks his teeth. He does the same thing under saddle, but the tongue is somewhat under control because he wears a flash bridle. He still gets loud-mouthed and clicks his teeth though.He seems to do it a little less with is new bit (a Myler eggbutt snaffle) but still does it. His teeth are up to date, all tack is fitting properly, can't find any physical problems. He came to me with a hackamore (previous owners rode him western) but since I've been working him dressage and cross country have been using a snaffle.

I recently read a training article touching on this but not really saying much about how to help a horse thats already got this going on.

Any ideas? He seems to do it most when he worried or really focused on something, or if he's really "in the zone" during a lesson.

Thanks!!

[caddym]

what is his background, breeding, age former training?
he was doing this before you bought him?

[BaileyTW]

I don't know his breeding, he came without papers, but best guess is some mix of QH and TB. He is 14 years old this year. The previous owners used him as a sort of western pleasure trail horse. I am using him for cross country and dressage, with some trail riding thrown in, and he loooooves jumping.
Yes, he did this before I got him, the previous owners used a mechanical hackamore on him, probably because it kept the tongue action to a minimum.

[caddym]

I've never really seen a horse do what you describe. I have "known" 2 horses both VERY well breed, expensive, well cared for and well ridden that developed nervous head shaking that love, money, expert vets etc, could not diagnose or cure.

It MIGHT be something that you have to live with?

As far as dressage work, I would suggest normal tack (no extra cranked nosebands or funky bits), concentrate on the training scale (rythm (sp?), loose/supple, contact, impulsion. and try to have fun clicking teeth or not:)

[CamdenLab]

Seems that nearly all TBs have some sort of annoying habit on the ties! Mine bobs his head up and down. I've learned to turn the stereo on and pretending like he's grooving to the music. LOL! He's also started sucking on his tongue. Of course, if he has a place to do it, he'll crib, too. And he likes to paw the concrete aisles with his expensive aluminum shoes. Just my way of saying, it might just be "him".

[hammondcrazy@yahoo.com]

I remember this one Andy that was in the White Stallion productions,, He was awesome and well trained, Funny thing is though he stuck his tongue out.. He still got cheers.

[BaileyTW]

lol, I know, he's so weird.

He's got lots of funky stuff he does, most of its just out in the pasture, though.
I'll have to try and video it sometime, its pretty funny to watch. He gets his halter all slobbery though while I'm grooming him because of his tongue thing. yuck. lol.

[BaileyTW]

Seems that nearly all TBs have some sort of annoying habit on the ties! Mine bobs his head up and down. I've learned to turn the stereo on and pretending like he's grooving to the music. LOL! He's also started sucking on his tongue. Of course, if he has a place to do it, he'll crib, too. And he likes to paw the concrete aisles with his expensive aluminum shoes. Just my way of saying, it might just be "him".

yeah, he likes to bob his head on the ties too! I think he does it more to play with the tie lines. I think he likes to try and nail people with the chains when we duck under them to get to the tack room.

A fellow boarders TB/Trakehner likes to wave her hoof in front of her. like pawing, but she never actually makes contact with the ground.

[Demeter]

I hate to sound like a dreamcrusher, but controlling the worried mouth with a flash may be treating the symptom not the cause.

I have recently heard from someone who is studying that specific issue that it could be related to allergies and/or adhd. I know, two really different disorders ;) ... She has used noseband attachments with beads (they kinda rattle and tap the horse's face, but aren't long enough to hit an eye or heavy enough to hurt) that seem to calm the horses in ties and under saddle. Of course, you can't show in them. If you're interested (please PM me so I'm sure to see it) I'll see if I can get information or a photo for you. It's non-invasive and maybe worth a try.

My own horse is a mouth worrier, or "chipmunk" as we called her. It took several years before her mouth got quiet. Several years of consistent riding, training to go from the back into a completely reliable connection (no, not mine!).

[NCSue]

My daughter's QH mare does something similiar under saddle. She sticks her tongue out or is just busy flicking it in and out. Pure nerves. Don't know if it originated b/c of bad teeth, rough hands or . . . She came to us with the habit. Started on basic suppling exercises and pretty much ignoring the mouth behavior. Verbal praise and rubbing the neck seems to help her relax. Teeth have been floated. Chiro done -- out of alignment through poll and neck. Saddle fitted. This mare thinks she is going to be fussed out and as one trainer put it "she picks on herself." Currently using a 3 piece fairly thick bit. Haven't found that the bit makes any difference.

Some of the OTTBs I've worked with have learned how to get their tongues over the bit and were always playing in the cross ties. I even hung some toys on the cross ties for one mare.

[ideayoda]

Both horses I have known which sucked their tongues up like that had ulcers. (Run your hand down the spine behind the saddle area? Sore? ) I would try a course of meds.

[Penthilisea]

My TB will do this with riders whose hands are unsteady. He goes in a loose ring happy mouth. I have tried snaffles, etc and same thing. For him, it is directly connected to what the rider is doing. Tap-tap-tap of the teeth. Took me a long time to figure it out because he doesn't do it with me. We do primarily dressage, so I do tend to keep more contact (2-4 lbs pressure) then a loose hunter rein. Maybe he would be reassured by more contact?

[DinkDunk]

Yep - my gelding is a nervous nelly but he expresses his nerves by clacking his teeth, fussing with the bit, and ducking behind the bit. No crazy tongue moves like you describe. He does fuss on the cross ties - but its usually for his own entertainment or when he's left alone and feels someone should be fussing over him.

He does the clacking and fussing with the bit the most when he's confused about something I'm asking or feeling overwhelmed. He does it at other times, too...but it is definitely amplified when learning new things or if he feels my hands are unsteady or my aids are too strong (usually the cause of his confusion!).

He settles down once he understands what I'm asking and has done it successfully a few times. I have to work extremely hard to ride tactfully and to never overaid. A strong leg as opposed to a very gentle pulsing leg can really set his clacking/fussing into overdrive. I'm learning a lot from him :D

[smithywess]

It never ceases to amaze me that with few exceptions riders never look to themselves as being the direct cause of their horse having an 'unhappy mouth' with the inevitable clicking,clacking and grinding of the teeth. Sometimes it's associated with the tongue hanging out the side of the mouth. Nearly always the horse goes behind it's bit,or inverts it's neck, as it tries it's best to escape the painful contact. Always the horse is blamed because it's a thoroughbred,or it's got ulcers (I wonder why?) or it's got allergies and 'annoying habits' in cross ties,or whatever. ' Nervous headshaking that love,money expert vets e.t.c. could not diagnose or cure ' was something I read too. Many hundreds of dollars are spent getting this or that aligned or massaged or adjusted. Many more hundreds of dollars are spent sending horses to 'remedial' trainers. Most of the horses who exhibit these mouth symptoms have never been gentled correctly as young horses and are subsequently ridden in an ignorant and insensitive fashion with heavy hands that riders use to balance off,because they have a poor seat, as well as their penchant of pulling the face into a 'frame' so that their horse is 'round'. A poor seat contributes to heavy,banging,legs the adverse effect of which is always felt first by a loss of any distinguishable lightness in the mouth. The grinding,clicking and clacking is simply a corollary to this tension developed by rotten riding practices. The practice of lightness in this day and age seems to be anathema.
Penthilisea had it right on when he/she said it was the result of what the rider was doing,and Demeter was also right on when she criticized the flash noseband to shut the mouth tight. Same with crank nosebands and other gizmos. Dinkdunk said that when her horse feels overwhelmed or if she uses a too heavy leg then the 'clacking and tension go into overdrive'.These horses,but for their generosity, would otherwise be unrideable or lame and many are. Some are 'shut down' emotionally and mentally and others become dangerous.
Until lightness to hand and leg and seat are actually studied as a philosophy then these problems will not resolve and continued calls for alternative practitioners,no doubt at great expense,will persist to change a behaviour that can be addressed by simply improving one's own equitation and actually trying to think out what's causing the problem. This doesn't seem to be a popular approach probably because it doesn't happen overnight and takes some effort.

[DinkDunk]

Smithywess - that came across as rather condescending. Did you read all of the posts? Quite a few of them said riding correctly and tactfully would help, as it did in their experience.

Just b/c I said my horse also has this issue does not mean that I ignore it and continue riding like shiznot.

Anyway. Carry on.

[KrazyTBMare]

My mare is an OTTB and she will do this sometimes. It used to be a lot worse than it is now but when she gets anxious or nervous it really comes up. She rolls her tongue around in her mouth, almost looking like shes trying to chew on the edge of her lips. Sometimes she will roll the bit around on her tongue if the bridle is on.

What has helped?

Well first, was getting her teeth floated by a certified equine dentist.

Second, getting her saddle professionally fitted.

Third, treating her with Zantac 150mg per my vet for possible ulcers.

Fourth, REMOVING the flash and this only made the nervous mouth issues worse.

Fifth, finding a bit that she felt comfortable with (in her case, a KK Ultra 18mm).

Sixth, keeping to a routine as far as riding, grooming, etc goes. I make sure when I am getting ready to ride, I spend a good amount of time brushing her and being calm myself. If when I start tacking up she gets anxious, I give her some cookies and talk to her and just ignore her getting antsy because addressing it makes it worse.

Hope that helps but unfortunately if you do everything you can and your horse still does it, it is just a bad habit, like biting your fingernails!

[lizathenag]

my OTTB came with mouth stuff. he even blows raspberries when tied for grooming.

what has made it go away for the most part.

lots and lots of lessons for me. I even have a bucking strap (call it what you will) that I often hook my little finger through to help keep my hands steady

I rarely ride with a noseband. only in clinics. just one more piece of tack to clean

He sees a dentist (not the vet) EVERY year and still is getting corrective work done. It turns out he has a bone spur on one of his bars.

I use a very thin egg butt which doesn't hit the bone spur. a french snaffle drove him crazy.

Interestingly, it goes away the more forward I ride him

[Nojacketrequired]

Most of the horses who exhibit these mouth symptoms have never been gentled correctly as young horses and are subsequently ridden in an ignorant and insensitive fashion with heavy hands that riders use to balance off,because they have a poor seat, as well as their penchant of pulling the face into a 'frame' so that their horse is 'round'. A poor seat contributes to heavy,banging,legs the adverse effect of which is always felt first by a loss of any distinguishable lightness in the mouth. The grinding,clicking and clacking is simply a corollary to this tension developed by rotten riding practices.

Well, we shall consider ourselves told.

NJR

[BaileyTW]

Smithy, I appreciate you pointing this possibility out, you are right most people try and igonore the "what am I doing wrong?" thought. However, don't think I don't ask myself what it is I am doing wrong all the time. I always try and adjust myself when Baloo is doing something odd or wrong to find what he is looking for me to do. Does he want more or less contact today? Am I not focusing on my position? I ask my instructor if she can see anything I should be doing differently (she, like all good instructors, is always painfully honest), the list goes on...

I've had physical problems looked at (teeth, chiro, tack fit, any new ouchies that have sprung up overnight) and haven't found any problems.

However, I got him a new bit and he seems to be doing better with it. He didn't fling his tongue or click his teeth at all today. I hope to ride tomorrow and see if its just interest in the new bit or if he truly does like it more.

I wish I didn't have to have the flash band, but if I take it off he gets his tongue over the bit in about 2 seconds, which just leads to more problems.

Baloo doesn't actually misbehave normally. He does the mouth thing even when he's going beautifully. He definitely doesn't overflex, and I wouldn't say he inverts either. He normally travels in a comfortable neutral frame. I normally ride with a fairly loose rein when not in the ring (aka most of the time I am riding) and do not use my hands to balance. I have had my share of rein-less, stirrupless, longe line lessons that I don't balance with my hands and haven't for a long time

Everyone else, thank you for the advice. I haven't tried the ulcer approach yet, I can try that and see if it does anything.

Demeter- that sounds interesting, PMing you!

[smithywess]

Hello Bailey TW I have PM'ed you.

[cuatx55]

my horse "flaps his bottom lip" when he is nervous, its gone away with training and positive reinforcement but resurfaces in times of anxiety. My horse is very TB-like but not a TB. The horse does it on trail rides, and its just how he is. Its not uncommon.

[nuts4cowboybutts]

I know a horse who, as a young colt, had to be on stall rest for a long time due to an injury from playing in the pasture. He was apparently very bored, had no stall toys, and he did all sorts of licking, slurping, sucking on his sides, smacking, etc. as some sort of self-stimulation out of boredom.

I don't know if this habit can be broken. As a much older working AQHA reining horse, he sometimes does all this tongue and mouth noises. It is sort of like a comfort to him. He is not worried or anxious. He does it when he is bored.

[BaileyTW]

I know a horse who, as a young colt, had to be on stall rest for a long time due to an injury from playing in the pasture. He was apparently very bored, had no stall toys, and he did all sorts of licking, slurping, sucking on his sides, smacking, etc. as some sort of self-stimulation out of boredom.

I don't know if this habit can be broken. As a much older working AQHA reining horse, he sometimes does all this tongue and mouth noises. It is sort of like a comfort to him. He is not worried or anxious. He does it when he is bored.

I'm wondering if it wasn't something like that that started it. I don't know how long he's been doing it before I got him, but I'd imagine it was for a while. I read in a newsletter about a week ago a trainer was talking about this type of thing also possibly being caused by improper breaking to the bit as a colt.... so in other words... It could be caused by anything!

On a more interesting note, he was starting to chomp in the crossties yesterday and I stopped what I was doing, walked to his head, took his head in my hands and just gently played with his jaw a bit and it seemed to relax him. I did it a few more times as soon as he started chomping or licking and he seemed to settle down a little bit more than usual.
I think I'll continue that for a bit and see if it helps.
He also seems to like his new Myler bit more now.

[slc2]

Why of course it could be because his inner foal was traumatized, or because he was broken in cruel-ly, like Ginger, in the book 'Black Beauty'. He may have some tropical disease, EPM, EPSM, 'Lymes' (sic) or ulcers. Oh don't you know? Every training issue is caused by ulcers! Give them ulcer medicine tout de suite! Anything that happens that you don't like is because of ulcers!

Ok, so now you've called the chiropractor, the masseuse, gotten the new saddle, gone through a dozen bits, given medication for EPM, changed to an EPSM diet, treated the horse for 'Lymes' (sic), ulcers, Epizootic Glanders and chaga's.

If you're not yet satisfied you can come back here, and someone else will tell you to buy a different bit or supplement, or that there's ANOTHER disease you can treat.

The tack stores love you, the chiropractor loves you, and the masseuse moves you by now(the only person that doesn't is your riding instructor, who is saying, 'uh...excuse me....excuuuuse me...none of that stuff is the answer....hellooooooo').

But...you've learned to channel Alois Podhajsky and Reiner Klimke and ride with a hand as light as a feather. You've thrown away that evil causes-all-problems-and-is-the-rider's-vain-attempt-to-conceal-his-own-ham-handed-riding flash (oh out out damned flash!). He's eating a natural feed and is given that magic supplement made completely out of blossoms of gentian and bee butt fuzz. He's been treated for every disease known to man. You're light, gentle and organic as hell.

And he STILL stands there in the cross ties and fiddles with his tongue and fusses when you're riding him.

WHY? Oh good lord, why! Is there another disease to treat? A magic bit? Does Reiner Klimke's level of skill not satisfy the poor traumatized beast?

Perhaps he just likes doing that.

Perhaps, and when you came over and petted him, you distracted him from his happy little endorphin producing habit, which makes him so happy and is really not that obnoxious.

Some horses just like to do that in the cross ties. If they fuss with their mouth while being ridden, maybe that's just how they are....anticipating the next move, lots of nervous energy, and just like to fiddle with their mouth.

My suggestion?

IF it bothers you THAT much, tack the horse up in his stall, while he's eating some hay. Maybe the horse will be a lot happier if he's not sitting in the cross ties going, 'Are we ready yet? Are we going yet? Are we done yet?' MAYBE the horse doesn't like standing around in the cross ties! MAYBE he DOES and he love playing with his tongue and mouth! Maybe it's a happy little endorphin producing habit for him that he loves!

Yep. Give him something to eat in his stall and tack him up. If you have to cross tie him (and believe me, you don't) give him something to eat or a stick to play with or a toy to chew on. While you're riding keep a constant steady contact with the reins, send him forward to the bit, and have your instructor show you how to supple him and keep him going forward to the bit. The main reason horses fuss while being ridden is that they're behind the bit and not moving forward. Get help from your instructor on that.

And no. Don't ditch your flash. It might be the only thing that keeps the bit still enough in his mouth so that he doesn't think the bit is a toy put in his mouth for him to play with.

Don't let him anticipate commands, and make yourself not 'lead up to' every aid with a period of fussing, preparing or setting up. Just give the aid in a definite way and do it. Have a variety of riding, so he's circling, stopping, backing up, and changing gait alot. Pick patterns and vary them - half circles, spiraling in and out, etc.

SURE...have your vet check him over for all those popular diseases, but maybe just accept that he's a more busy type of horse and let him be a busy type of horse, give him something to be busy with and give him the routine and the definiteness he needs.

These things tend to occur a lot in certain bloodlines and breeds where horses are bred for being energetic and willing and wanting to work hard for the rider. 'Mouthy' horses are usually just 'mouthy horses'. No disease, pain, problem, just, that's how they are.

[BaileyTW]

um... ok...
While I don't appreciate the false assumptions and sarcasm, I'll pick out the advice for use and say thank you.

I know Baloo's weird, I love him for it, and if he wants to fiddle in the ties, fine, its just it normally accompanies his prancing, and stopping the tongue (the jaw thing I tried, etc) seems to also stop the prancing.

I do have clear quick cues, an he does well with them. I don't make a fuss about cueing for things (or "making sure they are OK!! omg!!"). He normally fusses when he's been doing something for a little while and is bored. WHen I take him out in the woods and do our jumping courses and such (which is normally what we do when riding, with an occasional pit stop for dressage work) he is normally minimally mouthy because he is occupied, its normally working in the ring that he gets mouthy about.

Anyways thanks for the advice, I appreciate any ideas or perspectives that people can offer. :)

[slc2]

It sounds like you are doing fine with the horse....my joking was more aimed at those who will try to convince you something is direly wrong with your horse. It could be, especially if it's a change in behavior and very severe, but it doesn't sound like that.

[goeslikestink]

OK, so my horse, Baloo, has had this noisy habit since before I got him. It is driving myself, my instructor, and anyone I ride with insane, plus its not a good behaviour.

In the cross ties he stands there (or dances there) and whips his tongue halfway up his face and clicks his teeth. He does the same thing under saddle, but the tongue is somewhat under control because he wears a flash bridle. He still gets loud-mouthed and clicks his teeth though.He seems to do it a little less with is new bit (a Myler eggbutt snaffle) but still does it. His teeth are up to date, all tack is fitting properly, can't find any physical problems. He came to me with a hackamore (previous owners rode him western) but since I've been working him dressage and cross country have been using a snaffle.

I recently read a training article touching on this but not really saying much about how to help a horse thats already got this going on.

Any ideas? He seems to do it most when he worried or really focused on something, or if he's really "in the zone" during a lesson.

Thanks!!


sounds like his bits to low in his mouth and he can get his tongue over the bit

[TTFN]

This has been a great thread for me!! I too have a horse who is un-settled in the mouth and will swing his head all over . Some day's not at all and others non-stop. I'm alway's looking to me but it can be so hard to know what the answer is some day's . Some of the replys have nailed our problem I think and is a great reminder and some things are great suggestions!! Wonderful reply's and to the one's that are maybe a little harsh in thier approach I think you have handled them very well.
Thanks for putting this out there and to the wonderful answers.

[anchorsaway]

He probably just does it to entertain himself.

We have a horse that chews on the longe line while he's on the longe line if he can get it in his mouth. That being said, he also chews on the straps on the front of his blankets(most annoying habit in the world as they fray and are thus hard to put back in the keepers). But it's a habit I suspect he developed as a time consumer and well, we love him for his quirks. I suppose it's better than cribbing.

My horse wiggles his nose/lip to keep himself entertained and will occasionally flip his head when he's on a long rein, usually walking. That stemmed from a the bridle tag he used to have, which jingled when he did so. He's a TB as well. His personality is just well...goofy :lol:

As a side note, have you tried a bit with a 'bean' in the middle? The mouthy guys we have seem to go very well in those and keep a little bit quiet-er.

[BaileyTW]

It sounds like you are doing fine with the horse....my joking was more aimed at those who will try to convince you something is direly wrong with your horse. It could be, especially if it's a change in behavior and very severe, but it doesn't sound like that.

Thanks, and I totally get what you mean now, I know a few people like that. Spend hundreds every month on supplements the horses don't need and then wonder why they have issues. I went back to work for one lady who loves her horses more than anything but does some weird stuff for them. All obese horses, founder prone, seriously need to lose weight... I get there in the morning and she has pages of instructions laid out on how each pony gets 2 handfuls of beet pulp with their meal and how to mix it in right.

Ah, and with the heat that just moved in, there must have been an imaginary elephant-sized sedative that hit Baloo because he can hardly be bothered to do anything beyond his usual irritating the herd when turned out. I finished about 75% of his spring mane-pulling and he barely budged a muscle.
Sometimes I love the heat.

[slc2]

LOL. The funny thing (or sad) thing about those folks is they don't seem to realize that at the very best, they are just throwing money away. At the worst, they are causing serious problems. My prev vet said she had to treat horses that had actually been so oversupplemented they had iron poisoning! And here we have 21 polo ponies who just died from selenium poisoning. People often have no idea that the many supplements they feed are actually overdosing their horses...on the subject of fat ponies...proof one can actually 'kill with kindness'.

[BaileyTW]

yep, exactly. I always try to avoid extras if I can. My horse gets a complete feed, (the recommended amount on the label, too, so he actually gets the nutrients on the label) with his hay. He goes and eats grass during the day (or night, depending on the heat), and the only supplement he gets is his Cosequin at night, and sometimes oil if he starts to lose weight. that TB-side of him won in the metabolism department, he can be hard to keep weight on him when I have him in regular work.

This lady not only wastes money giving these ponies so many supplements, she super-wastes it because she only give them a little bit of what they're supposed to get of each supplement, so it has no therapeutic effect, which is probably good for the ponies who don't need it, but stupid on her part because she's just wasting it.

Sorry about my super-bad grammar and run-on, comma-spliced sentences. Thats how I think in my head. that's why I'm going insane. I have bad grammar in my brain, even.

[slc2]

Remember James Joyce and just carry on!