Spinoff- showing a lame horse...

[butlerfamilyzoo]

Due to the lame horse winning 1st thread... I got to thinking...

One of my students wants to show a few schooling shows this year if she's ready for an intro test... My schoolmaster has been used hard in his short 12yrs and though i'm maintaining it as best as possible, he's arthritic in his left hind hock and has navicular in the fronts. He starts out stiff, then comes good for most of the ride but now and then will throw in a TOTALLY off step, then back to just fine. He prefers deep footing, and that may be key to keeping him looking good at a show if we know that one offers deep footing... :lol:

BUT, dont bash me, this horse loves a job and if he isnt worked is visibly limping all around my pasture. It does him no good whatsoever to not be used and he is being maintained with my Vet's assistance which has gotten us to this point, and its better than he's been since i obtained him in Dec.

Now, he was taken on a 3hr trail ride over all kinds of terrain with this rider on Sat and NOT ONCE took a lame step. So he has good days and bad. I'm just wondering if others out there attempt to show a horse such as this? What were the reactions of your judge? I would never want to take him to a rated show and get bad mouthed for months over it if it happened to be his bad day, or have the poor rider write off all the money she spent to have to scratch day of if its a bad day. But for her to get some experience and have fun at schooling shows, "I" personally dont have an issue with it, and if i were judging, i wouldnt have an issue. Its not like he's gimping around with flat ears and dull eyes in obvious pain, he loves to work. I'm sure he's working threw more pain that he shows us just because he loves a job...

Your thoughts?

[Ambrey]

I don't know the rules for judges, but given that Leslie Morse was rung out for having a horse "off" at World Cup, it seems to follow that no, a horse that is lame is not allowed to show.

[Ajierene]

I took a gelding out just to get him used to shows and different things. We were doing two intro tests. My mare was doing two first level tests. After the first test with my gelding (this was a small schooling show) the judge came out and asked about my gelding. I said 'he's a bit arthritic'. She replied 'he's more than a BIT arthritic!'

She then asked if I was doing the first level tests with him and I assured her that I was not, he was mostly going to be a trail horse, but I wanted to get him used to stuff (I was trying to find a home for him at the time). I proceeded to do the second intro test....she again asked if I planned on doing the first level test with him and I again assured her I was not (I don't think she really believed me until I showed up in the ring with my mare...).

So, moral is, for an intro test, he should be fine. You may want to talk to the organizers about his issue, or possibly the judge, if it is a schooling show. The judge pinned me fairly (I was the only one in the class...) and was otherwise fair - just worried that I was trying to do to much with him. He was having a bad day that day as far as arthritis goes, but was otherwise game and I was proud of him.

[IsolaBella09]

I used to ride a back in the day circuit winner hunter that was always on/off lame. When he was out of work, he just got worse and worse, but when he was in consistent work, he would always move and jump better. The more he was in work and round, the better he would look and feel. He went up to Lake Placid in 2007 and is now a retired school horse. I think he likes teaching the less experienced kids and adults. ;) As for your horse, if he is comfortable at a show, then he should be fine. I would talk to the show organizers about him and see if they are okay with him showing there.

[atr]

It's all to do with how he is on the day. You've just got to be totally, honestly prepared to pull the plug if he's not right. Even if you've paid, braided, bathed, trailered there...

But that's the same for everyone.

I wouldn't be talking to show management about it, personally. Just go and either do it, or don't do it.

[Daventry]

I have been asked to judge schooling shows in the past and have been warned by the Show Committee that, due to the nature of the schooling show, there would be "old campaigners" there and school horses that some of the kids would be riding and I was not to dock them for soundness issues. Although, the show assured me there would be nothing coming in the ring of a dead lame nature. Just old campaigners showing their age. Sometimes, those are the best ones to get the green kids the confidence and the education they need in the ring!

I also used to have a client that showed my old show hunter/dressage gelding who had high and low ring bone in both front feet. He had his good days and bad, but really enjoyed his work and looked after a very timid adult amateur rider. She only did schooling show level in dressage on him, but we didn't think anything of taking him to a show for the Introductory level tests. It wasn't something I discuss with the Show Committee or the judge ahead of time. But, he only did a few schooling shows and would have had no place doing anything of higher caliber than that.

[normandy_shores]

On a good day, why not? Heck, even sound horses can show up and take a funny step.

Just be prepared to scratch if need be, no compromising the horse just because you've paid.

Up here in Canada, we have Gold/Silver/Bronze and then "discovery" Discovery isn't sanctioned by EC, but it's the rinky dink shows where some people show up wearing half chaps or horse boots. There are the horse and rider combos that are a complete gong show, the older campaigners and the younger greener horses. In that atmosphere, your scenario would be totally fine. Once you get rated, things might change less favorably if your guy shows up and has an "off day".

I wouldn't say anything to the judge. I have scribed for a VERY casual % day and the horse took a number of slightly off steps and funny steps. The judge was less experienced (hence why she was judging this show) and kept confirming with me. AFTER the ride was completed and the rider thanked the judge, she made a polite comment about the horse's soundness. The lady denied it completely. That's when your opportunity would be to say something.

I should note: my horse is a 19 year old arthritic TB with a history of foot and back problems. Tons of rehab later, it took me a long time of other people telling me he was sound to believe it. After a wet winter, he's a bit more sensitive on different footing. We had our first outing of the year this weekend and in one of the warmup rings he'd take a goofy step. He was tender on the gravel driveway, but totally sound in the other two rings. What can you do? Do what you can to keep the horse happy and as sound as possible, and enjoy him while you can. If it means a scratch sometimes, so be it. I think what I feel most often is a weakness more than a lameness (his right hind is rather weak after a winter off)

[exvet]

I agree with the others and say let this older fellow do his job unless it's one of his "bad" days. You simply are going to have to assume he's going to be OK, do everything you usually do to keep him "serviceably sound" and if it's a "bad" day be prepared to scratch. I am of the school of thought that these older campaigners, just so long as they aren't being pushed beyond their limit, do better, live longer and are happier staying active.

On a similar note, when I had to euthanize my daughter's horse I was given a 21 year old swedish warmblood for her to ride/show until I found something for her to compete with longterm. He had been campaigned in Europe and later imported here for someone to earn her medals with/on. He had/has ringbone and many other arthritic issues that are the result of age and wear and tear but at the time I got him he was relatively easy to keep sound enough for training level. We went to the regional championships that year for training level (junior rider) - so got the scores & managed to make it through the entire show season without a single judge commenting or stating any concern as to his soundness. At the time I could see his issues but they were truly subtle just so long as you didn't ask for more than W-T-C on 20 meter circles and the footing was good. The following year, however, things caught up with him. He is 25 now and looking good for his age. My daughter trail rides him occasionally but mostly just brushes and hacks him around the property to keep him happy. I can no longer keep him sound enough for competition (around here we call it "Arizona sound" - not a100% but not so bad to get you rung out) but you can tell he hates to be left behind when we load the others on the trailer. His one show season of service though, giving my daughter more experience and a friend when she had just lost one has guaranteed him a home until the very end.

[butlerfamilyzoo]

I think we'll give it a try. There is one in June we are looking at for him, and maybe by then we'll have the right combo down to keep him closer to 100%. Its just an Intro test, so i'm hoping the judge will be leniant if he takes a weird step or two.

He has some LOVELY work and could easily go into the ring in 2nd tomorrow, but i have a feeling they may be a little pickier about those off steps the higher we go with him, and it tends to show much more in the canter... At least to my anal self that knows exactly what's going on... lol.

Of course, if we show up and he's completely off that day, we'll scratch him. She wouldnt be out too much for a schooling show, but he would be such a good confidence builder for her first time out. He's such a neat guy. I feel so bad he's this messed up at 12... :( Hoping we can keep him working and happy until he's 20 or more.

[Tomw]

if your woried about not being alowed to compete cos people will not accept your explanation or it might cause fuss, then get a vets certificate explaining the problem and certifying that in there opinion is up to the job.
i showjumped a horse years ago who had ben born with one shorter back leg! he was hoppingly uneven if he ever trotted! and could only canter on one lead and was totally single paced in his canter, but had an unbeliveble pop in him and the owner wanted him to go out competing and i agreed as he had talent at our first show we were not alowed to compete cos of his "lameness" so for the next one i got him a vets certificate which i showed to the organisers and we never had a problem after that.

[FriesianX]

The rules state that in a case of "marked lameness" the judge may eliminate the horse and rider (DR 122 if you want exact wording). It is really up to the judge to determine what marked lameness is. Generally, a slight hitch won't get you eliminated. And generally, the higher you go, the less lenient the judge will be - it is tougher on a horse who is a bit off to do collected work and medium gaits than it is to do a short walk/trot test.

[Dressage Art]

He starts out stiff, then comes good for most of the ride but now and then will throw in a TOTALLY off step, then back to just fine.
I really have to look at the horse to give you an answer. But generally, one or even 2 "off" steps will not lead to a bell. Stiff on all four will not lead to a bell. But if he is even slightly lame - I personally would not show that horse with the hopes that he will not be lame if all of the starts are aligned.

I know that some older schoolmasters love their jobs and will go only worse if not ridden. They do tend to start out very stiff, but then go just fine and are great teachers. But riding at home, when you can stop anytime is different than riding at the show. "Servesably sound" and "show sound" is two different things. There are different lameness grades as well:

Grade 1: Difficult to observe; not consistently apparent regardless of circumstances (weight carrying, circling, inclines, hard surfaces, etc.)

Grade 2: Difficult to observe at the walk or trotting a straight line; consistently apparent under certain circumstances (weight carrying, circling, inclines, hard surfaces, etc.)

Grade 3: Consistently observable at a trot under all circumstances

Grade 4: Obvious lameness; marked nodding, hitching or shortened stride

Grade 5: Minimal weight bearing in motion and/or at rest; inability to move

I have a very small tolerance for continues, marked lameness and even if it's a schooling show - I'll ring that horse out in a heart beat! No matter what show management asked me before hand. I don't want lame horses in my arena on my conscience.

[buck22]

It's all to do with how he is on the day. You've just got to be totally, honestly prepared to pull the plug if he's not right. Even if you've paid, braided, bathed, trailered there...

couldn't agree more. I showed my older guy while he was on his great decline due to arthritis. Some days he walked out of it, some days he didn't. I kept an eye on him and was honest with myself and scratched us plenty of times, usually after one or two classes and him not feeling right... yes, it did stink to go through the time and expense of showing just to walk around and hand graze while my friends competed, but the old man loves getting in the trailer and going someplace and loves the busy atmosphere of the show grounds, and he was so darn fun when he was feeling good.

[betsyk]

Also - prepare your young rider for the possibility that the judge might speak to her about it, and provide her with some polite answers. Instead of, "he always looks like this," she could say "we work really hard to keep him comfortable but he has good days and bad days. Do you think I should ride my other test/maybe two tests was too much for him?" Also prepare her for the possibility that she might get there and you might all decide he shouldn't go in the ring; then she spends the day making a big fuss over him (and you make a big fuss over her for putting the horse first) and she helps her friends, maybe volunteers to help the show committee somehow, and generally displays good sportsmanship that people will remember much longer than they will the horse she chose not to ride! Treat it as a learning experience, because we all learn as much from managing an older horse as we do from riding them.

[Sonesta]

Nice comments, betsyk.

And I agree about taking a vet certificate that says the thinks the horse is okay to compete at that level. We have done this with students going to their first schooling show and riding an old stiff campaigner. We generally speak to the show manager and show her the certificate and have her "warn" the judge what she'll see. We even tell manager that we'd be happy to have the horses scores not considered for placings, if the judge will allow the pair to ride and be scored for personal learning.

In these cases, we aren't looking to get top scores, obviously, but to let the student get a feel for the show ring. And these old horses LOVE to get back in the ring to strut their stuff - even if they are a bit stiff.

[butlerfamilyzoo]

We even tell manager that we'd be happy to have the horses scores not considered for placings, if the judge will allow the pair to ride and be scored for personal learning.



Thats a super idea. I'll have to remember that!

[Speedy]

You mentioned your hope that a "judge would be lenient" but there are 2 factors working against you there - (1) The fact that gaits are judged in the tests. Lameness affects the gaits, and it isn't fair to other riders on sound horses if you should get a pass for poor quality gaits due to lameness. (2) You can be eliminated for marked lameness and, honestly, if a judge feels that your horse is lame enough to be eliminated under this rule, then it probably shouldn't be shown.

So, IMO, if you go to a recognized show, you should show only if he's sound on the day and NOT show if he's NOT sound on the day - and you should go only if you are willing to make that call.

I feel a little differently if you are thinking about going to an unrecognized show. I think you could go to one of those and, if I were you, I would give him a little bute the night before and the morning of the show. You won't be tested at an unrecognized show, and it will make him more comfortable throughout the day.

[normandy_shores]

I feel a little differently if you are thinking about going to an unrecognized show. I think you could go to one of those and, if I were you, I would give him a little bute the night before and the morning of the show. You won't be tested at an unrecognized show, and it will make him more comfortable throughout the day.

*If* you do bute and he feels good, just remember not to push him too hard :)

[Dressage Art]

Limited Bute is legal for the USEF/USDF rated shows as well: it can be given maximum for 5 days, no more than 2 gr per 1,000.00 pound horse per day. This much Bute can help a stiff horse, but it will not mask a lame horse. http://www.usef.org/documents/drugsMeds/USEF_EquineDrugsMedicationsPamphlet.pdf look at page 4 for Restricted Medication Doses.

[Watermark Farm]

This is a very interesting discussion, thanks for starting it. It's kind of the question I've always been afraid to ask!
I have a wonderful upper level schoolmaster. He is sound but has an old shoulder injury that makes him track a bit uneven when first warming up, and sometimes when I transition from walk to trot in a test (1st level max), he takes 2-3 uneven steps that make him look quite lame. Then he's fine, but it's a little disconcerting. I've honestly been surprised that more judges don't come flying out of their box when they see this. I am prepared to receive a lower collective mark for gaits and usually see a comment to the effect of 'horse took a few uneven steps.' But I've never been eliminated or even talked to, despite many shows. Perhaps these judges see me competing at a lower level and figure "she's on an old schoolmaster, he looks happy, he's got some sort of old injury that makes him a bit uneven, but all is basically well" or do they go "Wow, I thought for a moment I saw something off, but now he's going fine, so it must have seen it wrong."
I appreciated reading the judge's comments (above) about how different it can look from the judge's particular vantage point.

[Dressage Art]

I've honestly been surprised that more judges don't come flying out of their box when they see this.
Couple of uneven or irregular steps will not get you a bell. Anything can happen like a misstep, or uneven b/c horse is tense, irregular steps can be seen when horse is loosing his balance in transitions, or after/before spook.

Many horses do start up stiff so judges are aware of stiff. Stiff and even is OK. Judges usually try to double check or even triple check if the horse is lame: if they see uneven steps on circles, lateral work or transitions, judges usually will wait and see how the horse is going at the straight lines - if lameness goes away and horse shows some even steps, then judge will probably let it go. Grade 1 and 2 lameness most of the time will not get a bell, but just lower scores with comments uneven/unlevel/irregular. However, if there are handful uneven steps on a straight lines = that is already much more serious situation and rider can get a bell for that.

The key word is "continues" and "marked" lameness = bell