Rules?? Lame Horse Pinning 1st at Show????

[Trevelyan96]

I was a volunteer at a schooling show this weekend and I'm just totally thinking WTF???. There was a horse ridden by a local SN event trainer that was so obviously lame that several of the volunteers commented on it. The lameness was pointed out to the show manager by one of the scorers and also to the ring steward by me. The judge pinned the horse 1st in both its tests, and nothing was said. I did notice the ring steward speaking to the rider immediately after her test, but nothing else was said, and rider had someone waiting at the booth to pick up her test as soon as it was scored.

In what universe can this possibly be acceptable? I'm willing to give the rider/trainer the benefit of the doubt that she may have not known the horse was lame, but both the judge and show manager, have lost a lot of credibility in my eyes. But what, specifically, are the rules?

I'm a new member of the GMO and local chapter, and this incident has me rethinking my committment to the chapter, as almost everyone with any authority who was involved is a member of my chapter. I don't have a dog in this fight, as I wasn't riding and my horses were not entered at the show and I don't ride at that level anyway, but I'm just sick to think that no one considered the horse, and I don't understand how a judge can overlook obvious lameness in a test.

[Equibrit]

...I'm a member of the GMO and local chapter" So - take it up with them. When you are a member of these organizations you have a choice. You can speak up, object and try to make things change or you keep your mouth shut and let these abuses continue.

[Trevelyan96]

I'm new to dressage so not entirely sure of the rules, and wanted to know what the rules are in regards to letting a lame horse ride 2 tests. What rules are judges supposed to be guided by in such a matter. My expectation is that a 'rated' judge should be able to recognize obvious lameness in a horse and excuse/eliminate the horse. Hunters are jogged for soundness as a matter of rules, but as I said, I'm not a rules expert in Dressage. If there are specific rules regarding this, I will definitely take it up with the show manager and GMO, but I don't want to start trouble over something if its considered acceptable for a judge to allow and pin a lame horse.

[merrygoround]

I would be curious as to the level of the judge. Was it a USEF licensed judge, an L judge. Even an L should be sharp enough to spot a lame horse.

What is an SN event rider?

[Trevelyan96]

What is an SN event rider?

Oh sorry... the rider is a locally well known event trainer and rider. Sort of a medium fish in a small pond. Judge was "R" rated.

[narcisco]

Since it is a schooling show, there are fewer options than at rated show, where any competitor could file a formal complaint. If this is a GMO sanctioned show, there should have been a Technical Delegate on duty. It would be the TD's responsibility rather than the show manager. You report the lameness to the TD who takes the matter before the judge.

[Blkarab]

I've volunteered at a lot of schooling shows. Scribed for more than I can count and I'm on the board for my local GMO.

We had a similar situation a couple of weeks ago, at a show that was judged by two judges. At our show, the C judge (not the one I was scribing for) noticed an obvious lameness in a competitors horse. She allowed her to complete the test, then spoke with her (not so privately) after the test was completed. She eliminated the score and disqualified her from riding her second test. She didn't feel that it was beneficial to the horse to be ridden again that day. The judge I was scribing for, felt that maybe a "rein lameness" was occuring, and scored the test. We were sitting at B. My thought was that the horse appeared "off" but not unsound from our viewpoint in the arena. Maybe the C judge was seeing something differently, I'm not sure. I do know that the footing where the show was held, was not ideal, and it wasn't a place I would take my unshod horse because of the large gravel from the trailers to the arena. So, it easily could have been that the horse was a little sore from just walking over that particular ground.

Anyway---at schooling shows, it's usually the judge who makes the call as to whether the horse is sound enough to be competed. I'm not sure that the show managers make that call. However, it sounds like in your case, their were enough people who noticed how unsound the horse was, and the judge should have been approached by the show manager to have a soundness check given. At our local schooling shows, we don't have a TD present, as they are usually just locally run, one-day shows.

How was the footing of the arena at that show? Did you watch the horse during the test, and was it lame during the actual test? The judge can only see so much, especially if it is a full show.

[Janet]

Since it is a schooling show, there are fewer options than at rated show, where any competitor could file a formal complaint. If this is a GMO sanctioned show, there should have been a Technical Delegate on duty. It would be the TD's responsibility rather than the show manager. You report the lameness to the TD who takes the matter before the judge.
On the contrary, it is the judge, and ONLY the judge who makes the decision about lameness in a test.
DR 122.66. Lameness. In the case of marked lameness the judge or President of the Jury informs the
competitor that he is eliminated. There is no appeal against his decision.

[Bellfleur]

Nothing was said in Wellington this winter when one of the BN competitors was dead lame. Everyone in the stands was talking about it too. It was bad enough that I could not watch the performance. They were allowed to compete. I was pretty horrified there too. I wonder why no one wants to ring the bell when one is clearly lame.

On the other hand I did have a big gelding some years ago that severed his extensor tendon and just moved different because of it. He was not lame at all just moved to compensate for the lack of the tendon.

[Trevelyan96]

How was the footing of the arena at that show? Did you watch the horse during the test, and was it lame during the actual test? The judge can only see so much, especially if it is a full show.

The footing at the showgrounds is excellent, and the horse was definitely noticebly lame for the warmup and the entire test. It was lame enough that it was easy to identify exactly which leg it was! Unfortunately, I ddin't see the first test, only the second one. I do know the trainer/rider is seen locally as a 'dirt poor, talented rider/trainer' and people cut her a lot of slack as she's built a business from nothing, and she's very likeable, but she also has a reputation for breaking down horses, mostly from pushing too far too fast out of financial necessity.

I don't think there was a technical delegate at the show, even though it was GMO sanctioned. I'm pretty disillusioned with my local chapter over this, and probably will stop volunteering, or switch to another chapter. I'm not so much upset with the 1st place pinning, but just that the poor horse was made to do the test and the rider was rewarded for it. I will definitely avoid any show being judged by this particular judge in the future.

[Janet]

I don't think there was a technical delegate at the show. It would be, officially, none of the TD's business, even if there were a TD, even if it were a recognized show.

[Daventry]

While none of us were there and saw the situation first hand...as a judge, I'd like to put a spin on this topic and give a variety of reasons as to why a lame horse was allowed to compete and win.

Janet is correct, it is the judge, and only the judge that makes a decision about lameness. A veterinarian can be brought in for an assessment. But once the judge has made a decision, it is final.

Just because someone is a judge, even an R judge, does not make them an expert horseman, nor does it make them an expert at determining lameness, not unless they are a veterinarian...and we all know when that's been misdiagnosed too! As much as we dearly hope our R judges are the cream of the crop, a few do slip through the cracks!! If a judge happens to be a trainer, stable owner, etc. who has had a world of experience in dealing with horses, client horses, veterinarians and lameness problems, I would expect them to have a better idea of when a horse is "off". But...judges are human just like everybody else. Crumb, maybe she forgot her glasses at home! :lol:
Unless you were sitting right at C, where that judge sat, you do not know what they saw from their angle.
Civil suits have been filed and WON by competitors who were told by a judge that their horse was "lame". I have always been taught NEVER to accuse a competitors horse of being lame....I just don't use them on my card. If I have to use them on my card, I place them as low as possible. If someone ended up grilling it out of me as to why I did not use their horse, I would simply just say "I couldn't use your horse the way it was going today". Thankfully, I have never had to do that. In dressage, I'm sure writing "unbalanced" enough times would do the trick. Competitors rarely realize the pressure a judge has, especially with lawsuits and accusing a horse of being lame. Now, if a horse was dead lame and the horse was in distress, I would have to excuse the horse. Again, thankfully it has never happened. The stress of having to do that would be astronomical...especially if the competitor disagreed and got defensive. We just don't get paid enough to have to defend ourselves in a lawsuit as a result! :no:
There is a BIG difference between a lame horse, a horse who is rein or arena lame, and horse who is just plain stiff. Maybe to you, and from your angle, the horse looked lame. Maybe in the judges opinion, it just looked unbalanced and rein lame or just stiff. But...then why place it first...we don't know how the rest of the class did though. Maybe it was just the best of the worst in that class!I could keep going on forever as to why that judge used the horse in their class. Bottom line, it comes down to the judges decision, the expertise and knowledge of the judge and what they saw. As long as that horse was not suffering or in immediate distress, there is nothing a person can do unless a judge makes a decision, so don't put the blame on the show committee, the TD or the local dressage chapter. Don't let your local dressage chapter suffer (because you stop volunteering) because of one potentially poor judge.

[yaya]

Never mind. Got distracted, and in the time between writing and posting my reply, all my answers were already covered!

[Trevelyan96]

Daventry,

Thank you so much for explaining things from the judge's perspective. I guess for now I will withhold judgement of my local chapter, but am definitely not impressed with the judge. I guess what bothers me most is the not so discreet silence of everyone there who should have stepped up to be an advocate for the horse. It doesn't have to be an accusation that the rider deliberately rode an unsound horse, but why look the other way when a simple 'he looks ouchy, can you jog him for me' would save face for all involved, as then the rider is given the benefit of the doubt, but also given an opportunity to withdraw and publicly show whether its the horse or the ribbons that mean more to them. The fact that there are no procedures in place for addressing this may be part of the reason USDF and FEI are losing credibility.

[appychik]

As a rider with a very arthritic horse... I've almost been eliminated due to my horse's "lameness", when in all actuality he was just very, very stiff. Was told by the judge that they almost called my test off, but he ended up working out of the stiffness, so they let me continue.

Then again, the same horse is now retired, for good, due to horrible arthrtis stemming from a couple different stifle injuries. He's a glorified trail horse now :yes:.

[godoget]

I've looked through the rules and I see GR841 which says that a horse "must be serviceably sound for competition purposes i.e., such animal must not show evidence of lameness or broken wind." And DR122 says that the judge may eliminate a horse showing a "marked lamness." But I don't see any definition for the conditions of "lamness," "marked lamness," or, for that matter, "broken wind." It seems like a mistake to me to rely on the concept of "you know it when you see it." It opens the strong possibility of failing to eliminate horses that should be eliminated and eliminating horses that should be allowed to compete while damaging the reputations of their riders. Also GR841 gives the impression that lamness of any degree must result in elimination while DR122 suggests that only horses with "marked" lamness should be eliminated. What exactly is lamness and why should it result in elimination?

[Janet]

In dressage, I'm sure writing "unbalanced" enough times would do the trick.
More often "uneven"

ESPECIALLY "uneven in front" or "uneven behind".

[Sandy M]

I will swear that the ONLY time I've ever seen or heard of a judge eliminating for lameness (they are genuinely afraid to make the call), the horse was head-bobbing lame.

Now, I had seen the horse for an entire week prior to the show and knew it was "off," but the rider buted on Wednesday, told me on Friday the horse was sound and that I should braid it for a Saturday show. Mmmmm...okay. The he went to the show and was excused for lameness.

To me, the horse had been lame very slightly for YEARS, but no judge had ever said a word.

[rothmpp]

IME, judges are pretty reluctant to ring a horse unless the lameness is very noticeable. I've even been scribing for a couple of S judges that have asked my opinion on whether the horse appeared lame (I never commented one way or the other). Most often it is specifically for the reasons outlined - the judge cannot be sure if it is just old age stiff, rein lame, etc... I have also seen judges ring a horse at a multiple ring show and the rider will go to their next test, that judge won't ring them, and then the rider complains about the first judge.

I would also be interested in whether your GMO has slightly different rules/definitions for "serviceably sound". I know that in local open type shows, the judges tend to be more tolerant of what appears to be a chronic type lameness than a emergent looking one. Those old packers may take a bad couple of steps but for beginner type kids, they can be worth the hassle.

[Daventry]

Most often it is specifically for the reasons outlined - the judge cannot be sure if it is just old age stiff, rein lame, etc....

Exactly! And if the judge isn't sure, they've got to give the benefit of the doubt to the horse.

Those old packers may take a bad couple of steps but for beginner type kids, they can be worth the hassle.

Yes, they are worth their weight in gold for both young and old competitors! :yes:

[Equibrit]

Your best route to seeing that these things don't happen is to become more involved in your local GMO. Make it your mission to get rules implemented for local schooling shows that make it very clear who is responsible for calling a horse out for lameness, you could even promote the use of local (volunteer !) TDs. It is apparent that in your group these things aren't too clear, otherwise you would not be asking here.

[slc2]

Judges can stop a test if the horse is uneven in its strides. They don't have to play vet and say the horse is lame, they say the strides are uneven, end of test.

And to be quite honest, I haven't seen a single judge at any level, pin a noticeably lame horse. Ever. Schooling show or otherwise. I see lame horses getting kicked out of the ring. And some of those lamenesses are not so obvious either.

If your riding club condones this kind of thing, or hires judges that do, you need to be more involved in the GMO so that doesn't happen again.

...And don't be shocked if your pronouncement about rigorously disqualifying lame horses is met with an outcry that you're trying to prevent all those darling children from riding their dear elderly babysitter ponies at the show (though in my experience that isn't usually where the problem lies at all).

Is it possible the horse is well known to be rein lame, and you just thought it was lame? It is in some cases just about impossible to tell the difference in a horse you aren't familiar with. Be advised as well - there's a flip side - a cagey rider can cover up lameness almost entirely. People get sold very lame horses every day. If your local eventer rider is so skilled, I doubt you'd see her horse looking lame at all. Sad to say but true.

I'll never forget the experience of watching a gal ride and having someone turn to me and say in a stage whisper, 'That horse is really lame'. I have a very, very good eye, even good vets tell me that, and I saw nothing. Nuh-thing. She went around to every person at the barn and told them the horse was lame. One by one they came out, led by her, to look at the horse. Each one said, and I heard, 'I don't see any lameness'. She insisted the horse was lame. Why? Because her eye was off.

People just aren't good at seeing lameness. They tend to miss a lot of lamenesses and see lamenesses where there aren't any. Don't put your trust in just anyone who might be mad at the local trainer, be sure you're right.

Get independent confirmation and be sure you're right. IT's a very, very negative thing to say about a trainer. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I've seen that happen, and I know it does. At the same time, you have to ask yourself, what would a trainer gain by riding a horse in a local show that's head bobbing lame? Why would someone do that? Isn't that just about guaranteed to make them look like an ass and lose customers?

[honeydoozy]

As a scribe to countless judges, I have never seen a horse rung out for lameness. I have asked several *why* they never do, and the answer is routinely the same: If a horse "can complete the required movement", regardless of "irregularity" or being "uneven"... they can continue their test.

Judges *really* don't want to eliminate based on perceived "lameness" for all the reasons listed above.

[tlw]

Sorry to be uninformed but what, exactly, is rein lame?

[Sabine]

As a scribe to countless judges, I have never seen a horse rung out for lameness. I have asked several *why* they never do, and the answer is routinely the same: If a horse "can complete the required movement", regardless of "irregularity" or being "uneven"... they can continue their test.

Judges *really* don't want to eliminate based on perceived "lameness" for all the reasons listed above.

How is it then that they rung out Leslie Morse? A rule is a rule- and it must be applied to ALL and fairly and evenly!

[Dressage Art]

It is a shame that many lame horses are allowed to show in dressage arenas. It's sick that judges have to beat around the bush and call it uneven or unlevel or rein-lame or short steps, or that a horse got a stone in his hoofs and bla, bla, bla... I'm sick of watching lame horses pushed to "show". And it's getting worse! To hear about lame horse showing in dressage is not a shock anymore. Riders know that judges are reluctant to ring horses out so they are not even afraid to show lame horses anymore!!! And some riders are very fast to dismiss their horse's lameness as well.

Yes, judge has to have some balls to call a lame horse = a lame horse and ring a bell. I wish more judges would ring the bell on lameness. Horses don't have a voice and lame horses deserve to rest, not to show in pain and be uncomfortable for the benefit of humans.

There are some USEF guidelines for ringing the bell (short version):

Obvious lameness consistently observable at trot all the time:
*a marked head nod or shortened stride
*an observable hip hike
*a combination of a marked head nod, shortened stride, an observable hip hike
*minimal weight-bearing in motion or at rest.

There is difference between stiff and lame. Stiff, but even is OK. If lameness is just for a couple of steps = it’s not lame. It has to be consistent lameness. I scribed when horses were rang out and scribed when horses were not rang out, but given a 4 for every almost-lame movement with comment “uneven”. I scribed when judge was tearing herself up that she should ring out a rider, but never did: didn't want to step in do-do.

Now you also have 2 Olympic riders who showed uneven horses, one was rang out (Kingston, World Cup), but another one was let to finish the test (Brentina, Olympics). Different judges = different decisions.

I’m relived that Leslie Morse was rang out for lameness at the World Cup – b/c her horse was markedly lame on several movements, it was painful to watch, but Leslie kept on going and didn’t stop herself for whatever reason (?). I’m relived to see that a judge at C had enough balls to ring her out. I’m relived that judge at C had horse’s well being in her mind, rather than how the Big Name Trainer will look if she would be rang out for lameness and the backlash.

However, at the Olympics Brentina wasn’t rang out, but probably had a similar uneveness as Kingston. It was also painful to watch that test. Some think that judge was correct for not ringing Brentina out. Some thing that judge should off ring Brentina out. Personally for me, ringing out lame horse is the best solution. However, for some others, letting a lame horse finish a test is the best solution since there will not be backlash for the judge who spoke up. Nobody would question if the horse was really lame or just took a couple of "off" steps and would off been OK the next second.

A judge who rings horse for lameness can become VERY unpopular and is bound to get a backlash from rang out competitor and her/his following. But I hope and pray that judges will uphold the welfare of horses higher than a fear of backlash from ranged out rider. (be it verbal, nasty emails, PMs, lawsuits and so on).

[nhwr]

This is the kind of B$ that makes me nutz.

What exactly is the difference between lameness (of any origin, rein, mechanical or discomfort) and constant stiffness? And why should it matter? If a horse is off, for whatever reason, its will gaits lack purity. This should be reflected in the score. If the horse is truly lame, the rules say it should be excused. I think the judge should have the backbone to do it. The horse's welfare must come before everything.
If judges are too afraid to abide by the rules, they ought not judge or they should work to have the rule changed.

Question;
I know the judge has authority in the show ring, but if a horse is lame in the warm up and it is brought to the TD's attention, does the TD have any recourse?

[Dressage Art]

Sorry to be uninformed but what, exactly, is rein lame?
Rein-lame is usually a result of a tight back and stiff neck in a horse that is doing the movement that is too difficult for him to do. It can be often seen in lateral work when horse will be uneven, but on the straight lines horse is back to being even. That is not continues lameness, so it's shortly called rein-lame, but this term is not really used in judging.

[jse]

I too saw this happen at a small schooling show last summer. Horse was head-bobbing lame and won champion in the HUS division. Whaaaaaat? Everyone was commenting it, but nothing was done.

[Nick-]

I have shown a horse who went great in the warm up, tightened up when we went into the ring. He was totally even on the straight away but his back tightened on the lateral work and he became uneven (and don't kid yourself...I totally knew it. Even have a video of it in case I forget.). I am sure there were several armchair quarterbacks in the stands in complete horror that my horse was uneven. Even more upset when I went on to win the class. My trainer was a bit more diplomatic. She suggested we work more on the horse stretching into an even and consistent contact at home. She said he tightend up and I lost his back. The judge gave us an "irregular" for the lateral work but had some really nice comments at the end like "very capable pair at this level".

When I read these posts, knowing my story, I kind of take everything with a grain of salt. Rather than be too critical, I usually feel bad for them. No one wants to compete on a lame horse, even if it is only in the lateral work.

What those armchair quarterbacks in the stands do not know is that after that ride the last thing on my mind was my score. As soon as I got off my focus was on making sure my horse was o.k.. I had a vet out (horse is fine). I had a massage person work on him (horse is a bit tight). They are probably still telling friends a story about this time they saw a lame horse win a class when it was lame in the trot lateral work and didn't that idiot rider know it.

I would also like to add that after the class I went into the warm up ring to really stretch him and get him through over his back (thinking that he had tightened his back in the test)and yes....he was totally even (have a video of that too.....showed the vet).

[slc2]

Brentina and Kingston's cases were about as different looking as night and day, it takes a good eye for gaits and lameness to see that.

Sometimes, a rider or trainer will have a horse that he knows is not a hundred percent. Without violating the strict FEI drug policies, he has quite a few tactics he can resort to.

He can work the horse very lightly before and during the show, hoping to 'save' the horse for the class.

He may go so far as to just walk during the warmup or to do exercises that won't reveal the lameness.

Usually, for each type of injury or lameness there are certain movements that are 'kimono openers'. He will avoid those.

One might see a horse that looks surprisingly unfit and chubby, or is uncharacteristically frisky, tense or excited in the competition, or both. One might see lameness that only shows for a few moments, such as during a spook or buck, and that then, mysteriously disappears. A skilled rider can conceal lameness in a horse by clever use of legs, seat and rein.

Horse lameness can also be concealed in various other ways. I've heard of people giving horses shock wave treatments days before a show, because it numbs the nerves in the area of the injury. Of course that wouldn't be ethical, but it also would not be found in a drug test, as would a number of other things not be found.

And then there comes a point where the horse's action cannot be concealed, no matter how clever the rider.

'Rein lame' is caused not by trying hard in a movement that's too hard for the horse or being tight here or there, it is a much bigger problem, the most basic, fundamental part of the horse's training being - wrong.

[jse]

To prev poster: Dressage judges, TD's and officials are not responsible for lame horses in Hunt Seat classes. Hunt seat show problems probably should be covered in a different thread.

Brentina was like mmmm....er.....uh....?????.....er.....wft....uh... ..Kingston looked like he had a flat tire, and four of the bolts had come loose. These were too very, very different situations. One needs to have a good enough eye to see both lamenesses and compare them.

A cagey rider can ride the horse in such a way as to conceal lameness. When the condition gets too severe, even a very cagey rider can't cover it up.

'Rein lame' is caused not by trying hard in a movement that's too hard for the horse or being tight here or there, it is a much bigger problem, the most basic, fundamental part of the horse's training being - wrong. You can see 'rein lame' when a horse is being ridden at a posting trot on a straight line, it doesn't have to be doing anything at all hard. The horse is crooked, the contact is wrong, the most basic things are just - wrong. The horse takes uneven steps because he is being ridden so unevenly.

If a horse is old and a little stiff, many people still want to show that horse, especially for students at a local show. There will be a point at which any judge, instructor or even student should say, 'this is too lame, this is too much'.

You know what? That World Cup Discussion forum messes everything up for me! I keep clicking on this forum thinking it's the Hunter/Jumper forum and wondering why in the heck we are talking dressage....and then after I post I realize why. :lol:

[Daventry]

It is a shame that many lame horses are allowed to show in dressage arenas. It's sick that judges have to beat around the bush and call it uneven or unlevel or rein-lame or short steps, or that a horse got a stone in his hoofs and bla, bla, bla... I'm sick of watching lame horses pushed to "show". And it's getting worse! To hear about lame horse showing in dressage is not a shock anymore. Riders know that judges are reluctant to ring horses out so they are not even afraid to show lame horses anymore!!! And some riders are very fast to dismiss their horse's lameness as well.



You are being naive if you think the dressage arena is the only place lame horses are showing up. It happens in ALL aspects of the horse world, whether it be hunter/jumper, reining, driving, etc. It still doesn't make it right, but dressage isn't the only discipline with "uneven" horses competing!

[Dressage Art]

Sure, there are more atrocious things going on at the rodeos and racing, but those are not Olympic sports or sports that I participate in. Just b/c there are worse things going on in other sports, we shouldn't close our eyes on lameness in our sport. Especially in our sport, since it suppose to be the highest level partnership and dance between horse and rider. With even a slightly lame horse = harmony of dressage is lost... at least for me. And I’m getting tired watching uneven horses in dressage arenas… it’s not a pleasure to watch them do the "uneven/irregular" dance.

[narcisco]

I'm going to differ with the role of the TD. Although the TD can not eliminate a horse for lameness, if there is cruelty or abuse in the warm-up, then it is the TD's job to step in. I've seen it happen where the TD considered the riding of a very lame horse in the warm up to be abusive. The TD does have the power to step in for cruelty and abuse, which sometimes goes beyond whipping, spurring and blood on the horse. The TD is authorized to confer with the judge.

[Dressage Art]

Narcisco, judge only has an authority in the show ring. Outside of the show ring it's the show management that makes the final decision. While TD can/must step in - the final decision is always lays either on a judge (in a show arena) or on the show manager (outside of the show arena). However, TD still can submit a written report to USEF, even if nothing is done by a judge or by a show manager - then it's up to USEF to decide about the incident afterwards.

[Sabine]

I sadly think that this is a cultural issue that will resolve itself soon- the tolerance for any kind of public discomfort - pain involved or not- is running very much out- so that the public will speak up and the responsible parties will kick in- in order to save the validity of their event/activity/competition.
It is not acceptable in our times - with our knowledge and education- to watch a horse perform in apparent pain- or dysfunction of one of their limbs- it is against everything we believe in, advertise and support.
Since all equestrian organizations are against the wall-economically - like most companies- they will clean up their act...and this is part of it..and a good part I believe.
Not acceptable and just not thinkable...I feel for the converted dressage enthousiast that had to witness this disaster in a schooling show! What a put-off!

[slc2]

First of all, tolerance of and even recognition of lameness varies from division to division. When you see pictures on 'off course' of horses that are supposedly sound and for sale, and their back is so humped up you could put a camel saddle on it, you have to recognize, people ARE showing lame horses.

They're medicating them, they're selling them, yes, they're showing them. People DO. No one here? As usual, but we do have these protests that if lameness disqualification was strictly adhered to wouldn't it be such a horrible shame for all their older but not quite right horses who LOVE showing so much, how can you take that away from the dear sweet animals who are so game as to 'play hurt'....(vomit icon).

There's a point at which that goes a little too far, and it usually doesn't take too long.

On the one hand, we have posts like this one, complaining of lame horses pinning in shows, and on the other hand, we have posts about how cruel and unfair judges are if they don't allow the dear horse the satisfaction of showing.

People do this at local shows, usually banking on the fact that most observers don't get around enough to realize what's going on, or they have some complex explanation like, 'It's ok to do this, everyone does it'. It's not confined to small time local professional trainers, but that is an interesting place to look.

There's getting to be more and more people who aren't willing to support trainers like that. But unfortunately, the horse business being what it is, trainers go through 'generations' of customers, and when all of one batch of customers have left, word doesn't usually get around to the new batch of customers, and people tend to 'get more innocent' this way.

Amateurs without any financial pressure on them, who don't make a living at riding, should be a cleaner bunch, but they can get awful crazy when they want to win a medal or award.

USUALLY...the FEI sets fairly high standards for their events, that mean that riders don't usually get away with much. But people learn ways around the rules. The problem is not always with old horses that should have been retired long ago, but that is a common place to find it.

Elite level dressage is hard on horses. They don't stay sound forever, at least, not sound enough to work that hard. At some point the career ends. It is tempting to try to prolong it, and people do that. Most people realize that they will only get one horse like that, and that the public forgets quickly.

[narcisco]

DressageArt,

I agree with you completely. Others were saying "it was none of the TD's business," but someone has to be in charge outside the show ring.

As for Kingston and Brentina, I watched both rides. Brentina was merely stiff and older, not what people were used to seeing from her, but a natural progression of an aging horse. Kingston was clearly off right hind. Neither were even close to being as lame as the poor horse doing false passage in a recent you-tube video.

[Janet]

DressageArt,

I agree with you completely. Others were saying "it was none of the TD's business," but someone has to be in charge outside the show ring.To clarify, I said it wasn't the TD's business to determine whether or not a lame horse won the class.

OF COURSE there are plenty of things the TD can do outside the arena about a lame horse. But that wasn't the question.

[eggbutt]

Since it is a schooling show, there are fewer options than at rated show, where any competitor could file a formal complaint. If this is a GMO sanctioned show, there should have been a Technical Delegate on duty. It would be the TD's responsibility rather than the show manager. You report the lameness to the TD who takes the matter before the judge.


TD's are not required at schooling shows.

[Dressage Art]

I sadly think that this is a cultural issue that will resolve itself soon- the tolerance for any kind of public discomfort - pain involved or not- is running very much out- so that the public will speak up and the responsible parties will kick in- in order to save the validity of their event/activity/competition.
It is not acceptable in our times - with our knowledge and education- to watch a horse perform in apparent pain- or dysfunction of one of their limbs- it is against everything we believe in, advertise and support.
I really hope that you are right. I only wish there would be more people who would openly speak against showing lame horses - no matter who is showing those lame horses. I'm sure if Anky showed a lame horse, much more people would jump at her. It's naturally more difficult to speak up against a rider that we admire and love and who is our own as well... but I fear that now we have a "history" of horses that do not belong in the show ring, but are still shown and their discomfort is dismissed.

If that will continue, I’m afraid that I will be against dressage as an Olympic sport, since Olympics should be a display of the best of the best and purest of the pure that should inspire others… not cringe worthy almost-lame-stiff ride with excuses why a horse was not-quite-right…… no that is not a classical ballet dancer / dressage horse that I paid money to see live or on DVD.

[Alpha Mare]

When I was in 4-H there was a situation at a local show that my friend was told by the judge, in the last class of the day, that her horse was lovely but lame. It had showed in several classes previously, and the judge said at this point the horse was lame (english pleasure class). I'll always remember him saying 'I could pin you first except that your horse is off now, so you are last in this class'. He said it kindly, to a teenager, as education but also was firm as to why the placing was where it was.

IMO that is how dressage should be run. And a 'lame' horse, depending on severity, should be getting 0,1 or 2 on gaits, not just a '4' on one movement or gait score. And rider should also be penalized if the rider cannot feel that irregularity.

However, I hear from judges how much pressure is on them to avoid a negative comment. I had one friend lament that she excused a horse for blood on it's muzzle (no other sign of abuse, but that is the rule, any blood and it's done) and felt the show management would hold it against her forever.

We should have a hold an indemnification and hold harmless clause in show entries to deter these lawsuits. It pollutes the sport to have the judge afraid of telling the truth as s/he sees it.

[Trevelyan96]

I may be new to Dressage, but I've been around horses for the last 20 years, and I can positively say that the horse in question was not 'stiff' or 'rein lame' He was noticeably lame at the trot on the RF, with head bob and shortened stride on straight lines, circles, and laterally throughout the test. The test was L1-2. I was not the only person to notice or comment on it.

That said, I really do think it is a shame that an 'R' judge would give such high marks at that level to a horse that was markedly uneven. I think the judge was more focused on the rider's ability, which is unquestionable, than the quality of the test itself.

I do understand that there is a great deal of pressure on judges to encourage and reward good riding, as there is a perception that Dressage in the US is struggling. I also understand that there are many old campaigners out there who can be stiff or slightly arthritic, but are invaluable as teachers and confidence builders for young or inexperienced riders. But their place should be at Intro Level, for the good of the horse.

But as a newbie, I find it sort of disillusioning to see this type of thing, as the very reason I was drawn to Dressage was that I considered it to be the highest standard of good riding, conditioning, and training. I feel that what I witnessed at this show was politics and the gathering of the wagons to protect the inner circle.

[CosMonster]

But as a newbie, I find it sort of disillusioning to see this type of thing, as the very reason I was drawn to Dressage was that I considered it to be the highest standard of good riding, conditioning, and training. I feel that what I witnessed at this show was politics and the gathering of the wagons to protect the inner circle.

Dressage is just like anything else...there is the good and the bad. Having shown in other disciplines I do think there is often more good in dressage than in some others--it's harder to take shortcuts, and it isn't as hard on the horses physically as say jumping. But there are lots of people who just want to make money, or win ribbons, and then there are some that just have way different standards of what is acceptable. Unfortunately you have to weed through them.

I think you should try to get more involved in your GMO if things aren't the way you want them. GMOs frequently have an incredibly difficult time finding people who are interested in taking on responsibility, so they wind up having the same people year in and year out, and it turns into a clique. It may not work but it is worth a try.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience, and I hope it doesn't turn you off from dressage. It really is a lovely sport with a lot of great people.

[narcisco]

TD's are not required at schooling shows.

In many regions, GMO sanctioned shows are called schooling shows to differentiate them from USEF shows. They require a TD.

[Janet]

In many regions, GMO sanctioned shows are called schooling shows to differentiate them from USEF shows. They require a TD.
Depends on the GMO.

Our GMO sactioned shows do not require a TD.

[Dressage Art]

Interesting. Our GMO (California Dressage Society http://www.california-dressage.org ) does all of its shows by the USEF Rules. CDS year end championship show is actually more prestigious than USDF championship show, since it's so much harder to qualify for them. Just look at the scores that are needed to qualify for our GMO Year End Championships:

Level Scores / Percent (or better) Number of Different Judges

Training Level* 5 Scores / 66% from four Judges
Training AdultAm* 5 Scores / 64% from four Judges
Level I Pro 5 Scores / 64% from four Judges
Level I AdultAm 5 Scores / 63% from four Judges
Level II Pro 5 Scores / 64% from four Judges
Level II AdultAm 5 Scores / 62% from four Judges
Level III Pro 5 Scores / 62% from four Judges
Level III AdultAm 5 Scores / 60% from four Judges
Level IV Pro 5 Scores / 62% from four Judges
Level IV Pro AdultAm 5 Scores / 60% from four Judges
Prix St. Georges Pro 3 Scores / 62% from two Judges
Prix St. Georges AdultAm 3 Scores / 60% from two Judges
Intermediare I Pro 3 Scores / 62% from two Judges
Intermediare I AdultA 3 Scores / 60% from two Judges
Intermediare II 3 Scores / 60% from two Judges
Grand Prix 3 Scores / 60% from two Judges
Freestyle 3 Scores / 62% from two Judges

CDS is about 5,000.00 members strong and has 37 Chapters, the largest chapter is about 500 and the smallest is about 20 members strong. Some of our chapters are larger than some other states GMOs ;) Larger chapters usually have one schooling show with "L" judging it, then one GMO/CDS show with "R/S" judging it and one USEF/USDF/CDS/GMO show with "S" judging it.

Oh, we also have a star ranking: GMO shows are 1 star shows and USEF/USDF/GMO shows are 3 star shows - but both rated and ran by the USEF Rules with TDs and MITs and so on.

[Boomer]

More often "uneven"

ESPECIALLY "uneven in front" or "uneven behind".

Some of the judges I've scribed for have said "irregular steps" along with "uneven steps".

[Janet]

Our GMO often has R or S judges for our unrecognized shows. But no TD.

[366474]

I was at the event. The horse was not lame. The horse is 4 years old at its 2nd schooling show. He is a big mover. I am sorry you thought he looked lame. There were no comments mentioning any unevenness on the test sheet and nothing was said to the rider. He did have a few steps where he was tense in the tack and wanted to break in the canter. Keep you nasty comments to yourself and if you really have a problem with the soundness of the horse approach the rider. Speaking up on the black boards doesn't do it. I also feel the financial situation of the rider has absolutely nothing to do with this.
I do agree that sometimes horses appear lame that win. This wasn't one of them.

[Trevelyan96]

I was at the event. The horse was not lame. The horse is 4 years old at its 2nd schooling show. He is a big mover. I am sorry you thought he looked lame. There were no comments mentioning any unevenness on the test sheet and nothing was said to the rider. He did have a few steps where he was tense in the tack and wanted to break in the canter. Keep you nasty comments to yourself and if you really have a problem with the soundness of the horse approach the rider. Speaking up on the black boards doesn't do it. I also feel the financial situation of the rider has absolutely nothing to do with this.
I do agree that sometimes horses appear lame that win. This wasn't one of them.

I'm trying my hardest not to be nasty, I originally posted because I saw something that concerned me, and wanted some clarification as to rules and the proper way to address the issue in general, so I will know what to expect if I continue to pursue Dressage and be an active member of my GMO. It was not my intention to bash the rider or take this any further, unless prompted to do so by someone with more experience in the Dressage community! My personal convictions on what I saw are pretty definitite, but frankly, I have neither the desire or motivation to go about causing trouble within my local Dressage community about this particular incident. It was just something that I personally found troubling. I've been told it was the judges call, and that the judge's decision is fianal, so although I may disagree with the judge, and you, regarding the horse's soundness, I'm not the type to go around trying to ruin someone's reputation over a difference of opinion. I've tried to give an accurate description of the situation to get good advice without naming names or giving enough specifics to harm any particular individual. If you think you may have been present and know to what I'm referring, I can only say that you may be guessing wrong.

[366474]

No problem on clarifying. I guess this is the part that hurts people....
"but she also has a reputation for breaking down horses, mostly from pushing too far too fast out of financial necessity" and also the dirt poor part. It really doesn't seem to have anything to do with how to handle the situation. I am certainly not one for causing trouble either and I realize you didn't name names. Oh well.

[Trevelyan96]

No problem on clarifying. I guess this is the part that hurts people....
"but she also has a reputation for breaking down horses, mostly from pushing too far too fast out of financial necessity" and also the dirt poor part. It really doesn't seem to have anything to do with how to handle the situation. I am certainly not one for causing trouble either and I realize you didn't name names. Oh well.

I'm sorry... I added that part simply because sometimes I see that many riders and trainers in this type of situation are cut a little more slack because people both admire them for their ability and sympathize with them for sometimes having to make tough or questionable decisions regarding the welfare of their horses. It in no way reflects on my opinion of their character or talent. I actually like this individual and admire her talent greatly.

Its a sad fact that less than wealthy professionals in the US are often forced, by financial necessity, to make decisions that aren't always in the best interest of the horse. But we still have a responsibility to address issues when they come up, because we are supposed to be advocates for the horse, who can't speak for himself. I think that there are many diplomatic and face saving ways to do this, but it can't happen if its never discussed openly and honestly.

[LeightonFarm]

I fail to see how this is something that troubled you personally when you have posted it on a public forum.

Some of the things you have said are very nasty about this person without ever approaching them first. If I saw someone on a horse that was lame, I would be concerned enough to tell them, not post it on a public forum after the show is over.

More than that, this is a schooling show and this horse was there to learn about showing. He brought all of his inexperience with him, like the other horses in the class. I am not a judge, but I think in her judgement she pinned the horse she thought was best. Not because she felt the rider was good in spite of being indigent. What does a person's financial position have to do with riding ability and how would the judge know this information?

Your account of this is that everyone at the show could see the horse was lame, but no one spoke to either the judge or the rider about it. It made more sense to post it on a public forum because personally it upset you. I truly can't make sense of this.

[Trevelyan96]

I fail to see how this is something that troubled you personally when you have posted it on a public forum.

1. I originally posted to get advice on something that I found troubling but am not well enough acquainted with the rules / traditions of dressage to feel comfortable pursing further within my GMO without advice from a more experienced community.

Some of the things you have said are very nasty about this person without ever approaching them first. If I saw someone on a horse that was lame, I would be concerned enough to tell them, not post it on a public forum after the show is over.

2. I mentioned my concerns to the people in authority BEFORE the class was pinned. As a newcomer and someone NOT in authority at the show, it was NOT MY PLACE to address the issue with the rider. I was not the ONLY person to have this concern, I may simply be the poor sensitive idiot who is the most upset about it.

More than that, this is a schooling show and this horse was there to learn about showing. He brought all of his inexperience with him, like the other horses in the class. I am not a judge, but I think in her judgement she pinned the horse she thought was best. Not because she felt the rider was good in spite of being indigent. What does a person's financial position have to do with riding ability and how would the judge know this information?

3. My only reason for mentioning this is because I feel that the people IN AUTHORITY AT THE SHOW took this no further for the reason stated above. People can be deliberately blind when their friends are involved. It has nothing to do with the RIDER's character. Its basic human nature, and but when there are horses involved, I see it differently. My opinion of the judging is an entirely separate issue, and I'm entitled to that..

Your account of this is that everyone at the show could see the horse was lame, but no one spoke to either the judge or the rider about it. It made more sense to post it on a public forum because personally it upset you. I truly can't make sense of this.

4. I've received a lot of constructive advice and points of view here, and thoughtfully considered them all. The purpose of a public forum is to gather information, input, and different perspectives to help us make a decision or broaden our understanding of an issue. THAT is why I posted here, BEFORE persuing the issue in a more personal way with the GMO. Because I did not want to start trouble over something that may have actually been 'acceptable'.

At any rate, I think this discussion has gotten out of hand, as its sparked speculation on who specific individuals may be that are involved, which was not my intent. All I was really looking for was input on the rules and advice on whether I did the best I could in a situation that I'm unfamiliar with, and how to handle it appropriately in the future, and I appreciate everyone's input in helping me decide which direction to take regarding just how involved I should or shouldn't be at this point in my GMO. Perhaps its best for me to take a step back and learn more about the specific community I'm a part of before putting myself in a situation where I'm conflicted about my values vs. 'reality'.

[slc2]

THis is what almost always happens with these posts.

Someone complains about a lame horse at a show, and someone else gets on and says 'I was there, the horse was not lame' (and the OP is a nasty old so and so for bringing it up).

The first person says, 'Oh yes he was lame'.

And the second person says, 'Oh no he wasn't', while the rest of us remain blissfully unaware of the truth, or if there is any.

No one on the bulletin board has any idea who's right, and people divide into warring camps, one defending the original complainer and the other camp saying how NASTY she is.

No video will ever be posted, but there will be a few supporting friends checking in on either side to provide character references, and there will be thousands of views as the two mud slinging female cats start really going for the eyeballs.

To the original poster:

1. You made some very nasty comments about the nature of the person involved, some of them coyly enough made that you could back out of them later

2. Other people who were there don't see it the same way you do, and any of us could find out with one PM, what show, what horse, what rider, what trainer, and what judge perpetrated this awful thing. You didn't name names; you didn't need to. Anyone can figure it out if they want to.

To the defendant:

1. Big moving horses don't look lame, unless they are lame

2. Big moving horses don't look lame when they get 'tight', unless 'tight' is a politically correct word for 'lame'.

And no, I'm not taking sides.

Either have a duel, OR EVEN BETTER...keep it to yourselves, and resolve it where it's supposed to be resolved, at the show, with the officials who are actually able to detect lameness and disqualify horses.

[Trevelyan96]

To the original poster:

1. You made some very nasty comments about the nature of the person involved, some of them coyly enough made that you could back out of them later

2. Other people who were there don't see it the same way you do, and any of us could find out with one PM, what show, what horse, what rider, what trainer, and what judge perpetrated this awful thing. You didn't name names; you didn't need to. Anyone can figure it out if they want to.

SLC, you are absolutely right. It wasn't intentional, but it WAS stupid! Its probably time for me to ramp down my 'newbie' enthusiasm and concentrate on learning before being closely involved in the GMO, so I will KNOW the right thing to do when it happens.

[Liz]

If you are new to the GMO it doesn't sound like you are making friends. I am sure you will find that you now have a reputation the next time you go to a show.

[Blkarab]

Judges can stop a test if the horse is uneven in its strides. They don't have to play vet and say the horse is lame, they say the strides are uneven, end of test.

And to be quite honest, I haven't seen a single judge at any level, pin a noticeably lame horse. Ever. Schooling show or otherwise. I see lame horses getting kicked out of the ring. And some of those lamenesses are not so obvious either.

If your riding club condones this kind of thing, or hires judges that do, you need to be more involved in the GMO so that doesn't happen again.

...And don't be shocked if your pronouncement about rigorously disqualifying lame horses is met with an outcry that you're trying to prevent all those darling children from riding their dear elderly babysitter ponies at the show (though in my experience that isn't usually where the problem lies at all).

Is it possible the horse is well known to be rein lame, and you just thought it was lame? It is in some cases just about impossible to tell the difference in a horse you aren't familiar with. Be advised as well - there's a flip side - a cagey rider can cover up lameness almost entirely. People get sold very lame horses every day. If your local eventer rider is so skilled, I doubt you'd see her horse looking lame at all. Sad to say but true.

I'll never forget the experience of watching a gal ride and having someone turn to me and say in a stage whisper, 'That horse is really lame'. I have a very, very good eye, even good vets tell me that, and I saw nothing. Nuh-thing. She went around to every person at the barn and told them the horse was lame. One by one they came out, led by her, to look at the horse. Each one said, and I heard, 'I don't see any lameness'. She insisted the horse was lame. Why? Because her eye was off.

People just aren't good at seeing lameness. They tend to miss a lot of lamenesses and see lamenesses where there aren't any. Don't put your trust in just anyone who might be mad at the local trainer, be sure you're right.

Get independent confirmation and be sure you're right. IT's a very, very negative thing to say about a trainer. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I've seen that happen, and I know it does. At the same time, you have to ask yourself, what would a trainer gain by riding a horse in a local show that's head bobbing lame? Why would someone do that? Isn't that just about guaranteed to make them look like an ass and lose customers?

THis is what almost always happens with these posts.

Someone complains about a lame horse at a show, and someone else gets on and says 'I was there, the horse was not lame' (and the OP is a nasty old so and so for bringing it up).

The first person says, 'Oh yes he was lame'.

And the second person says, 'Oh no he wasn't', while the rest of us remain blissfully unaware of the truth, or if there is any.

No one on the bulletin board has any idea who's right, and people divide into warring camps, one defending the original complainer and the other camp saying how NASTY she is.

No video will ever be posted, but there will be a few supporting friends checking in on either side to provide character references, and there will be thousands of views as the two mud slinging female cats start really going for the eyeballs.

To the original poster:

1. You made some very nasty comments about the nature of the person involved, some of them coyly enough made that you could back out of them later

2. Other people who were there don't see it the same way you do, and any of us could find out with one PM, what show, what horse, what rider, what trainer, and what judge perpetrated this awful thing. You didn't name names; you didn't need to. Anyone can figure it out if they want to.

To the defendant:

1. Big moving horses don't look lame, unless they are lame

2. Big moving horses don't look lame when they get 'tight', unless 'tight' is a politically correct word for 'lame'.

And no, I'm not taking sides.

Either have a duel, OR EVEN BETTER...keep it to yourselves, and resolve it where it's supposed to be resolved, at the show, with the officials who are actually able to detect lameness and disqualify horses.


SLC---totally, totally agree with these 2 posts! You are dead right on both points and some very solid advice for the OP.

[Sandy M]

FWIW - and agreeing with slc on this point: My young horse is a big mover. He is barefoot. He can get VERY tense at shows (he's only been to three in his life at this point). He is not and does not look "lame" when he gets tense. He just becomes disinclined to work through his back, but not uneven or head-bobbing or anything like what the OP described.

[Sabine]

If you are new to the GMO it doesn't sound like you are making friends. I am sure you will find that you now have a reputation the next time you go to a show.

You don't kick someone in the shin- if they acknowledge their mistake in the way they went about a situation..bad taste in my mind.
I agree with slick (jeez that's becoming a habit!???) and would still insist- that the 'lameness issue' needs to be clarified for judges and TDs so that there are NO incidents like the one described....and yes there is always someone saying they are lame and someone saying the horse was not lame...but in a nutshell- we do see lame horses at shows...and that HAS TO BE A NO-NO!!!

[WhatzUp]

While none of us were there and saw the situation first hand...as a judge, I'd like to put a spin on this topic and give a variety of reasons as to why a lame horse was allowed to compete and win.

Janet is correct, it is the judge, and only the judge that makes a decision about lameness. A veterinarian can be brought in for an assessment. But once the judge has made a decision, it is final.

Just because someone is a judge, even an R judge, does not make them an expert horseman, nor does it make them an expert at determining lameness, not unless they are a veterinarian...and we all know when that's been misdiagnosed too! As much as we dearly hope our R judges are the cream of the crop, a few do slip through the cracks!! If a judge happens to be a trainer, stable owner, etc. who has had a world of experience in dealing with horses, client horses, veterinarians and lameness problems, I would expect them to have a better idea of when a horse is "off". But...judges are human just like everybody else. Crumb, maybe she forgot her glasses at home! :lol:
Unless you were sitting right at C, where that judge sat, you do not know what they saw from their angle.
Civil suits have been filed and WON by competitors who were told by a judge that their horse was "lame". I have always been taught NEVER to accuse a competitors horse of being lame....I just don't use them on my card. If I have to use them on my card, I place them as low as possible. If someone ended up grilling it out of me as to why I did not use their horse, I would simply just say "I couldn't use your horse the way it was going today". Thankfully, I have never had to do that. In dressage, I'm sure writing "unbalanced" enough times would do the trick. Competitors rarely realize the pressure a judge has, especially with lawsuits and accusing a horse of being lame. Now, if a horse was dead lame and the horse was in distress, I would have to excuse the horse. Again, thankfully it has never happened. The stress of having to do that would be astronomical...especially if the competitor disagreed and got defensive. We just don't get paid enough to have to defend ourselves in a lawsuit as a result! :no:
There is a BIG difference between a lame horse, a horse who is rein or arena lame, and horse who is just plain stiff. Maybe to you, and from your angle, the horse looked lame. Maybe in the judges opinion, it just looked unbalanced and rein lame or just stiff. But...then why place it first...we don't know how the rest of the class did though. Maybe it was just the best of the worst in that class!I could keep going on forever as to why that judge used the horse in their class. Bottom line, it comes down to the judges decision, the expertise and knowledge of the judge and what they saw. As long as that horse was not suffering or in immediate distress, there is nothing a person can do unless a judge makes a decision, so don't put the blame on the show committee, the TD or the local dressage chapter. Don't let your local dressage chapter suffer (because you stop volunteering) because of one potentially poor judge.


Hi,

What judging designation do you hold ?

Yours in sport,

Lynn

[slc2]

It's been a good discussion.

I think one of the biggest problems we have is that we don't get a consistent reaction when two people look at the same video or picture, one person thinks it stinks, the next person thinks it's great and LEAVE BRITTNEY ALONE! LOL.

People are isolated and they don't get a lot of input from instructors and they don't get exposed to alot of information. It becomes very difficult for people to develop their eye under those circumstances.

[Donella]

The OP didn't bring this up to try and bring down the person involved. Most of us have NO idea who she is refering to, nor does she name names. She states that she and a number of other people though that the horse was lame and that the judge didn't call it. Her beef is with the judge. I have seen this happen, and I can understand her concern. It really seems like alot of people have no idea when their horse is off....ALOT of people.

There is a guy that rides in our area on a perpetually lame horse, shows WAY above his level of riding and his horses level of training. I know that he has been told by people around his stable that his horse is lame/off. He ignores them. He was showing in a national show this summer, where there were three O judges. I have no idea if the judges said anything to him on his test but he did enter the clinic that followed the show with Axel Steiner (who was judging the show). Axel told him flat out and point blank that his horse is absolutely lame and that he has no buisness riding at the level he claims to ride at. He was polite about it and offered help with rider position, but he didn't dick around. At the end of the day, it is about the horse. I wish more people would speak up about lame horses and stop worrying about offending someone. If your horse is lame at a show or clinic A you either dont know and hence need to be told or B you dont care, in which case I could care less if you are offended.

In my opinion, there are alot of horsepeople who cannot tell when a horse is "off", people who SHOULD be able to tell. If the movement is questionable, there is likely an issue.... ie it is alot more likely that the horse is off and yet alot of people cannot see it than it is that the horse is 100 percent sound and yet a #of people think it is lame. Know what I mean?>

[slc2]

There are a lot of horses that alter their gait so that they aren't in pain. As long as they are allowed to compensate for their issue (tendon, arthritis, any number of things can do this) and aren't worked hard, they are pain free and while I'm not in favor of them being worked hard, I do feel that as long as they aren't in pain, it isn't wrong to ride and learn from them But they have to be in a strict 'program' and everyone has to be on board. No big long clinics, no shows, and a very ethics oriented oversight from someone who keeps in mind the horse's welfare is primary.

Compensation may be shortening the stride of one hind leg, being crooked (relative to the extreme straightness needed at the higher level work), not bending the hocks and carrying quite so much, and not pushing hard in extentions and lengthenings. What each one of these horses can do will vary - but typically, no pirouettes, no full power lengthenings, and for each condition, different things might be off limits. A rider can get the feel of what 'on the bit' is and how to bend and do basic (large) figures, but not of everything.

I don't believe those horses should be shown or worked hard, but as long as they are in a program and worked appropriately I don't think the horses are in pain. I also don't think the situation will be ethical forever, eventually even these horses have a point they get to where ethics says, enough. We always need to think first if the program really is keeping the horse comfortable or just lining someone's wallet.

[mtngirl]

So what about being rung out for the horse being lame...and NO ONE but the judge could see it? Including a vet? (And an experienced trainer standing behind C watching the ride). Saw that happen this weekend at a show...granted the woman wasn't having the best ride...but there was nothing horrible about it either. It was...steady, if uninspiring. The horse took a couple of uneven steps when it crossed the diagonal in a medium trot (numerous horses did in the same spot...I think there was a little uneveness there in the footing). But after the fifth or six movement, the judge rang the horse out, saying it was lame. Oh...and the judge is not a vet.

I mean...the judge's word is final isn't it? Would the rider have any recourse? :confused:

[yaya]

I mean...the judge's word is final isn't it? Would the rider have any recourse? :confused:

The judge's word is final. No recourse.

[Trevelyan96]

The judge's word is final. No recourse.

Maybe its this 'finality' that makes a lot of judges unwilling to make the call. I guess there will always be controversy and, as pointed out, many people really aren't taught how to spot lameness, and most, even if they can see it, can't identify which leg or specific area IS lame, so the burden of proof falls on the person calling the lameness.

At any rate, it sure would be nice if these issues had a better way of being resolved at shows for all involved so the reputations of judges, trainers, and riders would not be ruined by rumors, while still advocating the best treatment of the hroses. I realize that it would be riduculous to have a vet present at every show, but I think any time there is a question, raised by ANYONE at the show, the horse should be jogged or ridden for a 2nd look and soundness check before show results are finalized. It would save face for everyone involved in a less subjective way.

[Equibrit]

......but I think any time there is a question, raised by ANYONE at the show, the horse should be jogged or ridden for a 2nd look and soundness check before show results are finalized. It would save face for everyone involved in a less subjective way.

I think you'd have to do WAY better than that !

[Janet]

Maybe its this 'finality' that makes a lot of judges unwilling to make the call. I guess there will always be controversy and, as pointed out, many people really aren't taught how to spot lameness, and most, even if they can see it, can't identify which leg or specific area IS lame, so the burden of proof falls on the person calling the lameness.

At any rate, it sure would be nice if these issues had a better way of being resolved at shows for all involved so the reputations of judges, trainers, and riders would not be ruined by rumors, while still advocating the best treatment of the hroses. I realize that it would be riduculous to have a vet present at every show, but I think any time there is a question, raised by ANYONE at the show, the horse should be jogged or ridden for a 2nd look and soundness check before show results are finalized. It would save face for everyone involved in a less subjective way.
Who chooses the vet? What relationship does the vet have with the various parties?

Just as subjective.

[Trevelyan96]

I just wish that there were a mechanism at the show for the horse to have some type of soundness check if there is a question about it. At that point the show management and judge can ask to have the horse jogged or ridden for a 2nd look. At best, it gives everyone a chance to see that the issue is being dealt with openly and also gives the pair the benefit of the doubt that maybe the horse took a while to work out of stiffnes, or rider was unaware of the lameness, or its something that cropped up during the test. At worst, someone might be a little miffed at the final decision, whether pro or con, but at least the process would be transparent.

Judging IS subjective, that's a fact that we have to live with in this sport, but soundness is something that should always bear slightly closer scrutiny if there is a question. Even if for no other reason than that we have a responsibility to be advocates for the horse.

At a schooling show, it can be an informal decision of the judge, TD, and show manager, with both sides presenting their observations, explanations, whatever. At recognized shows, where the stakes are higher, I think a vet should be involved.

But the current system, where the decision is left soley on the shoulders of the judge, and/or the TD is putting altogether too much responsibility on their shoulders as well as leaving many people feeling powerless and disillusioned when things aren't addressed at all. I would much rather be told "we looked at him again and we disagree" than "judge/td didn't see it so it didn't happen."

[mbm]

Who chooses the vet? What relationship does the vet have with the various parties?

Just as subjective.

what about the vets used for the jog at CDIs? "they" Seem to be able to make it work there?

[Janet]

what about the vets used for the jog at CDIs? "they" Seem to be able to make it work there?
I don't know about CDI, but at CCI, it is the GROUND JURY (the judges) that make the decision at the "jog". They can consult with the vets, but the judges make the decision.

[Daventry]

Hi,

What judging designation do you hold ?

Yours in sport,

Lynn

Lynn, my judging credentials are clearly stated on my website at www.daventryfarms.com/judging.html (http://www.daventryfarms.com/judging.html) Whether I'm a carded judge or not though, it's easy enough to go through the rule book and learn the rules...and after twenty years in the show ring as both a competitor and trainer, it's much easier to get an appreciation for what a judge's job entails.

[Fharoah]

I have a horse with a gait abnormalty at the walk. If you walk him on flat concrete he seems lame at the walk, if you trot him he is 100% has been confirmed by top notch lameness specialist sergeon. He is not sensitive to any palpation, does not bute out of it, is negative to flexions and sound at trot and canter, does his changes no problem no resistance at all, if I showed you a video you may well think he was lame at the walk it looks off.