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View Full Version : Sorry another A/O rules question...



heartinrye
Apr. 19, 2009, 03:55 PM
Ok simple question
Want to show my horse in the A/O's, also have a lease horse- can I also show him in 'open' classes? (Not Adult or non-pro ones) Or nothing at all since I don't own him?

MissIndependence
Apr. 19, 2009, 09:42 PM
Janet will probably chime in here. I "believe" that you are fine to show the lease horse in non A/O divisions (i.e. open hunter, etc). You may only show horses you or your family own in the A/O division as you know. I think the rule change going into effect at the end of 2009 will prevent A/O's from riding any horses owned by others at a competition and then riding in the A/O division....but that MAY only pertain to the A/O jumpers. I cannot remember the exact ruling - but I know the new rule goes into effect at the end of 2009.

justmagic
Apr. 19, 2009, 10:00 PM
If you show your horse, that you own, in the A/O hunters you can't show anything else at the same horse show that you or a family member don't own. So the answers is no.

La Gringa
Apr. 19, 2009, 10:11 PM
What was the purpose of this rule change? If someone owns a 3'6" horse and a greenie, that can only do the 3' divisions... they can't show their own 3' horse in a 3' class if they are showing an A/O hunter?

You can't ride a jumper that you don't own in another division? What if you have a leased jumper and want to show in the AA jumpers and own an A/O hunter?

That rule doesn't make any sense. Are the horse shows trying to reduce numbers even more so they don't exist anymore?

:confused:

justmagic
Apr. 19, 2009, 10:18 PM
What was the purpose of this rule change? If someone owns a 3'6" horse and a greenie, that can only do the 3' divisions... they can't show their own 3' horse in a 3' class if they are showing an A/O hunter?

You can't ride a jumper that you don't own in another division? What if you have a leased jumper and want to show in the AA jumpers and own an A/O hunter?

That rule doesn't make any sense. Are the horse shows trying to reduce numbers even more so they don't exist anymore?

:confused:


You can show your own horses in any division you want. If you have a greenie and a A/O horse you can show the greenie in any division and the A/O horse but you just have to own both of them. You can't ride a friend's horse or one you lease for example if you are showing in the A/Os.

At one point you could do the A/O hunters and an adult jumper that you didn't own but that rule either changed this year OR is slated to change.

Giddy-up
Apr. 20, 2009, 09:15 AM
Here in Zone 5 you can show your AO horse & 1 horse you own or USEF lease in the AAs as well. So I would say that if you have a USEF lease you can show the leased horse & your AO horse as well. Obviously you can't do the lease horse in any "owner" classes, but you could show in the AAs or any open divisions.

I had questioned USEF when Zone 5 changed their rules (showing in the AOs & a horse you don't own at the same show) & they told me that in this circumstance they consider a USEF lease like an "ownership". Not an ownership to show in the AOs, but an ownership to show in the AAs.

adding: perhaps this also depends on where you are showing (zone rules) & what you are trying to show in?

monalisa
Apr. 20, 2009, 09:25 AM
I concur with some of the others that she cannot show the other horse. This came up during a recent Stewards' Clinic. So the answer is no.

La Gringa
Apr. 20, 2009, 10:21 AM
What's the point of this rule change? It would seem to take entry fee revenue away from the shows.

Giddy-up
Apr. 20, 2009, 10:41 AM
What's the point of this rule change? It would seem to take entry fee revenue away from the shows.

What rule change do you speak of??

The AO HUNTERS have always stated you couldn't show your horse in the AOs & another horse not owned by you (or your family) at the SAME show. That is nothing new.

USEF is now changing the AO JUMPERS to match what has always been the AO HUNTERS rule.

ccoronios
Apr. 20, 2009, 02:43 PM
The rule about showing your horse in A/O and someone else's horse in another division came into effect in the late 60s/early 70s. In the simplest terms, the purpose was to keep amateurs from riding/ showing all their trainer's horses.

Carol

Janet
Apr. 20, 2009, 03:01 PM
Ok simple question
Want to show my horse in the A/O's, also have a lease horse- can I also show him in 'open' classes? (Not Adult or non-pro ones) Or nothing at all since I don't own him?
You need to be more specific.

Are you talking about the A/O HUNTERS or the A/O JUMPERS? The rules are different.

In the A/O HUNTERS, if you show in the A/O HUNTERS (on a horse you (or your family) own) you can compete in other classes on horses you OWN, or horses you LEASE (I THINK the lease has to be registered with the USEF). This came up a few years ago, and that is my understanding of what the USEF office said. Of course, the "open" classes may have their own restrictions. And the USEF may have changed their interpretation.

In the A/O JUMPERS there was no such restriction on riding other horses, but that changed on April 1

a. An amateur who rides for a person outside of his/her family may not ride in a class restricted to Amateur Owners at the same competition. BOD 1/18/09 Effective 4/1/09 Since the wording is the same as the hunters, I assume the interpretation wrt leasing is the same.

But in either case, since it depends on the interpretation of "rides for a person outside of his/her family", it would DEFINITELY be worth your while checking directly with the USEF. They won't bite. I have been told that Lori Nelson is the person to talk to about Amateur rules.

heartinrye
Apr. 20, 2009, 03:22 PM
Great, thanks Janet.
I am leasing a horse to do the Adult Eq/Adult Jumpers on, and I own a horse who is being leased out. I was hoping to take him to a show this summer, and since he (in the past year) has made this transition from amazing jumper to hunter/eq pony I was thinking of taking him into the A/O's just for fun! So if I USEF leased the horse it *might* be ok?

Giddy-up
Apr. 21, 2009, 09:06 AM
Great, thanks Janet.
I am leasing a horse to do the Adult Eq/Adult Jumpers on, and I own a horse who is being leased out. I was hoping to take him to a show this summer, and since he (in the past year) has made this transition from amazing jumper to hunter/eq pony I was thinking of taking him into the A/O's just for fun! So if I USEF leased the horse it *might* be ok?

You lost me. :) You want to show the lease horse in AO stuff? That won't happen even with a USEF lease. Or do you mean your horse is being returned from a lease & you want to show him in the AO?

quietly
Apr. 21, 2009, 09:49 AM
Janet, they have not changed the interpretation. I believe you are correct that Lori Nelson is the one to talk to about whether or not you are an amateur. The Horse department or Hunter department are probably the ones the talk to about riding a leased horse. I go with Janet, they won't bite.

LetsChat
Apr. 21, 2009, 10:16 AM
What is the penalty for doing this. I think I know of a situation where the person showed her own horse in the A/Os and then showed the trainers client's horses in the suitables at the same show. If that is a violation, what is the penalty?

Janet
Apr. 21, 2009, 10:32 AM
What is the penalty for doing this. I think I know of a situation where the person showed her own horse in the A/Os and then showed the trainers client's horses in the suitables at the same show. If that is a violation, what is the penalty?
That is up to the hearing committee to decide. But the minimum would be to lose all the A/O points at the show where the rules were violated.
But you have to file the protest within a certain nubmer of days (see chapter 6 and 7)

LetsChat
Apr. 21, 2009, 10:35 AM
I wasn't going to protest, just curious what the punishment was.

Cookiewoo
Apr. 21, 2009, 12:48 PM
The rule change concerning A/O jumpers has been pushed back to December 1, 2009, as there were too many affected point wise by changing the rule effective April 1. You can read it on the USHJA website.

Janet
Apr. 21, 2009, 03:18 PM
The rule change concerning A/O jumpers has been pushed back to December 1, 2009, as there were too many affected point wise by changing the rule effective April 1. You can read it on the USHJA website.
Where did you find that? It IS in the on line version of the rule book on the USEF web site with the April 1 date.

Not doubting you- I'd just like to know where to find it.

It is a USEF rule, so nothing officially happens until the USEF (not just USHJA) agreees to the delay.

heartinrye
Apr. 21, 2009, 04:49 PM
You lost me. :) You want to show the lease horse in AO stuff? That won't happen even with a USEF lease. Or do you mean your horse is being returned from a lease & you want to show him in the AO?

No, sorry, I want to show my horse who I own in the A/O's (he's leased out in barn, with the agreement that I can ride him a little when I'm home, and then they don't have to pay me anything, just all of his bills.) at a few smaller one-day shows (which are USEF rated). As well as show my leased horse in Adult stuff, or open jumpers if necessary. I'll be giving USEF a call just so there is no petition filed!!

Also- if the show ISN'T USEF rated, could I do it? I'll be in CT, so if its CHJA and NEHC rated but not USEF rated could I do this?

Janet
Apr. 21, 2009, 05:06 PM
Also- if the show ISN'T USEF rated, could I do it? I'll be in CT, so if its CHJA and NEHC rated but not USEF rated could I do this? You would have to check with them.

Sebastian
Apr. 21, 2009, 05:06 PM
The absurdity of this just demonstrates why I think the A/O division should be abolished.

Ammy or Open -- across the board.

Seb :)

heartinrye
Apr. 21, 2009, 05:13 PM
The absurdity of this just demonstrates why I think the A/O division should be abolished.

Ammy or Open -- across the board.

Seb :)

I like this idea :D

LetsChat
Apr. 21, 2009, 05:46 PM
I just think that people don't read the rules, they just do the classes that they feel the horses can do, i.e. Adults for a 3' horse, A/O for 3'6" and know enough that they have to OWN the horse to compete in the A/O hunters but don't know about the restrictions of riding other horses, not owned or leased in any other divisions at the same show. I know of a few violators that I have seen do other divisions, of course before these past couple threads about the Ammy, A/O rules I didn't know it wasn't possible either, my bad...... but fortunately I only ever show my own horses so by default I obey but not by actually knowing the rules. Unfortunately it can get them in trouble if people happen to notice it at the right time! Just goes to show that everyone should read and know the rules!

BAB
Apr. 21, 2009, 07:27 PM
There was a Presidential Modification approved around April 4 that put the rule that changed the definition of an Amateur Owner Jumper rider effective date from April 1 to December 1, 2009. I had a copy of it, but somehow have misplaced it. It was given to us at the Stewards Clinic that weekend. I'm not sure how quickly such Pres. Mods are published, but you would think it would have been by now. Nonetheless, the A/O Jumper rule now in effect is that A/Os that show their own jumper in the A/O Jumper division may show horses for others. This is different than for A/Os that ride their own horse in the A/O Hunters.

Janet
Apr. 21, 2009, 11:15 PM
There was a Presidential Modification approved around April 4 that put the rule that changed the definition of an Amateur Owner Jumper rider effective date from April 1 to December 1, 2009. I had a copy of it, but somehow have misplaced it. It was given to us at the Stewards Clinic that weekend. I'm not sure how quickly such Pres. Mods are published, but you would think it would have been by now. Nonetheless, the A/O Jumper rule now in effect is that A/Os that show their own jumper in the A/O Jumper division may show horses for others. This is different than for A/Os that ride their own horse in the A/O Hunters.
Thanks. it certainly makes sense- since it really doesn't justify an "extraordinary" rule change. But I couldn't find it on either the USEF or USHJA web site.

It doesn't do much good if only the stewards know about it, but the riders don't!!

BAB
Apr. 22, 2009, 09:46 AM
If you go to USEF.org, Rules and Governance, Rule Book, Rule Changes for 2010, then it will being up 15 pages of rules passed on 1/18/09 and the old A/O rule for Jumpers is still listed there on one of the pages - JP117, I think it is. Why it hasn't been published otherwise, I do not know.

Janet
Apr. 22, 2009, 10:43 AM
It sounds as if they have a configuration management problem.

The currently posted version of the jumper rules
http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleBook/2009/16-JP.pdf
says

a. An amateur who rides for a person outside of his/her family may not ride in a class
restricted to Amateur Owners at the same competition. BOD 1/18/09 Effective 4/1/09

The "rules passed in Jan 09 with an effective date of April 09"
http://www.usef.org/documents/rules/ruleChanges/2009/BOD1-18-09eff4-1-09.pdf
says

a. An amateur who rides for a person outside of his/her family may not ride in a class
restricted to Amateur Owners at the same competition.

But the "rules passed in Jan 09 with an effective date of Dec 09"
http://www.usef.org/documents/rules/ruleChanges/2010/BOD11809effective12109.pdf
has a version of JP117 without any reference to "rides for a person outside of his/her family".

The pedantic interpretation would be that the restriction is only in effect from April to December. But I don't think that is what is meant. I think it is just that, for the "Dec 09" file they used the 08 rule book as a baseline, instead of using "April 09 as specified in Jan 09" as the baseline.

Oh well, I expect they will catch up with themselves before too long. Wasn't planning on riding anybody else's horses anyway, I barely have time to ride my own.

bluedapple
Apr. 22, 2009, 11:53 AM
Zone 2 does not allow you to do the a/o's and any lower division.
I HATE HATE this rule, because you can't have a greenie, or a horse that can't jump that high in the adults along with your a/o.
You have to take them to two different shows

justmagic
Apr. 22, 2009, 09:00 PM
Zone 2 does not allow you to do the a/o's and any lower division.
I HATE HATE this rule, because you can't have a greenie, or a horse that can't jump that high in the adults along with your a/o.
You have to take them to two different shows


You could do the greenie in the lows or something like that but yes you can't do it in the adults in zone 2. Most zone 2 shows have tons of lower stuff that you can do.