How to raise the pommel without making saddle too small for the wither?

[pAin't_Misbehavin']

OK, I finally found a saddle that suits the little paint horse - it's a Duett Rondo 36 cm. I tacked him up and sat on him in it - although I haven't actually ridden in it yet - and he dropped his head and sighed contentedly.

Nancy has been amazing at helping me evaluate the fit with email pictures. She is also satisfied with the fit - except she says it's too low in the pommel and needs to come up about an inch.

The saddle isn't too wide, BTW - the angle of the saddle exactly paralells the angle of the horse's shoulder. I had my friend sit in the saddle and shine a flashlight down the pommel, so I could see that it doesn't touch the spine anywhere. There's plenty of clearance under the pommel, too. It's just that the saddle doesn't sit quite level and is a little low in front.

I have a quilted Mattes correction pad so I put in the front pads and put the saddle on the little paint horse. He pinned his ears and snapped at the air until I took it off him. I couldn't bring myself to girth it up since he seemed so uncomfortable. When I took it off, I noticed the front pads decrease the amount of shoulder room. Quanah was ridden for so long in a too-narrow saddle that I suspect he is telling me "Oh, hell no, human o' mine - we will not be using a saddle that pinches my shoulders."

So does anybody know any way to lift the pommel without decreasing shoulder room?

[IIIBarsV]

There is a pad I use from "Lamicell"... but I don't know if it comes in english styles, just western and barrel racing. It basically has a suede top, a neoprene bottom, and in between are two panels of stiff memory-foam-like stuff that are shaped like saddle panels. These panels are only 1/2" thick and provide "lift" without narrowing the width like other "lifter" pads. I've used it for "lift" purposes on western saddles that are low in the gullet and on my english saddle when riding narrower horses. What would normally take three thick pads to create the desired result and a P'O'd horse, only takes one Lamicell pad and the horse doesn't get grouchy.

Hmm, a google search reveals they do make english pads and they have a "memory foam shock absorbing pad" for english saddles, but I don't know if it's the same material that I like so much in the western pads.

http://www.txtack.com/_e/Saddle_Pads/product/P304100/LAMI_CELL_English_Memory_Shock_Absorbing_Pad.htm

[Catmando]

The angle of the tree points do not necessarily line up with the angle of the shoulder....the tree points do not sit on the shoulder. There are great pics on Trumble Mtns blog on saddle fit from early February that show how to "see" the correct angle. Two things are causing the pommel to be too low, which throws the saddle out of balance: It IS too wide or the panels are incorrect for your horse and lift the rear of the saddle causing it to be pommel low. Is your horse short backed? Is he croup high? The wool flocked gusseted panels tend to be heavily flocked on the Duetts. Adding a pad in front WILL be like putting on an extra pair of socks...so yes it will be like going to a narrower fit.

[pAin't_Misbehavin']

Two things are causing the pommel to be too low, which throws the saddle out of balance: It IS too wide or the panels are incorrect for your horse and lift the rear of the saddle causing it to be pommel low. Is your horse short backed? Is he croup high? The wool flocked gusseted panels tend to be heavily flocked on the Duetts. Adding a pad in front WILL be like putting on an extra pair of socks...so yes it will be like going to a narrower fit.

Not too wide. The panels aren't gusseted, I don't believe. They just look like regular panels.

The horse is short-backed and croup high. He also hasn't been worked in three years, and I'm hoping as he builds topline the problem will correct itself.

:sigh: I suspect you're right - any pad I used will narrow the shoulder room. Oh, well - he'll be starting slowly back to work. If he's happy being sat on in the saddle with the pommel low, perhaps he'll be happy walking around for ten or fifteen minutes with the pommel low.:) If he's happy, I'm happy.

And my instructor already told me she doesn't care if it's a bit too low in the pommel. Tipped backwards is a major problem for rider position, according to her, but tipped slightly forwards isn't a big deal.

[RunForIt]

What if the saddle fits the horse correctlly - points and all, but due to being out of work for 6 of the past 9 months the saddle is sitting too low on the wither with me in the saddle? This puts me sitting too forward, legs swing back, and puts undue pressure on the wither - saddle clears the wither, but not enough for me to get 3 fingers in the front.

What sort of temporary fix does anyone suggest? The above posts about too narrow a fit in the shoulder got my attention. Horse currently does NOT like me up in two-point and this happens when I'm using my mattes pad with the shims ...wonder if its displacing the points in a way that's making him uncomfortable (should add that we're in day 4 of treating for ulcers with Ulcergard).

[mintano]

And my instructor already told me she doesn't care if it's a bit too low in the pommel. Tipped backwards is a major problem for rider position, according to her, but tipped slightly forwards isn't a big deal.

I have a similar problem with my gelding, he's short backed and his croup is just that tiny bit higher and tips my saddle with the pommel lower. IMHO I would rather be tipped a little backwards! That could also be because my horse likes to carry his front end low and with the greatest of ease can fling me over his shoulder and act like an obnoxious twit! :)

[LMH]

I don't understand several things from these posts.

1. If a saddle sits too low on the wither, how can you say it fits? Either it fits or it sits too low.

a half inch thick pad that goes between horse and saddle WILL narrow the saddle-how can it not?

[Mallard]

I don't understand several things from these posts.

1. If a saddle sits too low on the wither, how can you say it fits? Either it fits or it sits too low.

a half inch thick pad that goes between horse and saddle WILL narrow the saddle-how can it not?


I agree!!
How can the fitter say she is 'satisfied with the fit' AND 'it needs to come up an inch in the front'???
If it needs to come up in the front, then it does not fit.

If it is not sitting level, then you either need to take out stuffing in the back or add it in the front.

You need to have a saddler come out and fit the horse. Emailing photos just does not work.

[pAin't_Misbehavin']

You need to have a saddler come out and fit the horse. Emailing photos just does not work.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:
Saddle fitter. That's a good one!:lol: If I had access to a saddle-fitter, I wouldn't be asking for advice on the interwebz. But I live in a world where most people believe all saddles fit all horses. Not enough work to support a saddle-fitter.

I'm satisfied with the fit because it is the first saddle I have tried that is wide enough in the shoulder without the cantle popping up off the horse. Is it perfect? No. Is it nearly perfect? Yes.

By "low in the front" I mean the saddle is not sitting level. There is still plenty of clearance.

I am reluctant to reflock at this time, because the horse is coming back into work after a long layoff and will no doubt be changing shape. I hope to minimize the number of times the saddle will require reflocking and would prefer to wait until the horse builds up some topline.

That's why I asked if there was a way to shim the saddle without taking up too much room in the shoulder.

[JB]

There can indeed be an issue with a horse that is too downhill - everything is downhill - horse, saddle, rider. That can cause saddles to slide forward, despite fitting "perfectly" otherwise. The front of the saddle ideally needs to be built up, while *not* interfering with the final width, in order to 1) be wide enough for the horse and 2) balanced longitudinally for the rider.

You can't go wider in order to shim up the front, as then you'll still have a downhill fit. You can't just shim up a "fits perfectly" saddle because you've then got a too-narrow fit. The saddle has to be built with the downhill conformation of the horse in mind.

[sublimequine]

How much do you want to raise the front? An inch? Half an inch? A couple of inches?

I have some experience in this category, as my mare's saddle began to "dip" in the front after losing all her muscling and topline, specifically around the withers and shoulders. That's what a longggggg rehab will do to a horse, apparently. :lol:

[JB]

I have some experience in this category, as my mare's saddle began to "dip" in the front after losing all her muscling and topline, specifically around the withers and shoulders. That's what a longggggg rehab will do to a horse, apparently. :lol:
Yes, but a horse who loses muscle, causing the saddle to be too wide which causes it to sit pommel-low, is an entirely different animal than the horse who is built downhill and the well-fitting saddle sits pommel-low where it's a rider issue mainly, though that does end up affecting the horse.

[mvp]

The idea first, my arm-chair notion of saddling philosophy from the western world second. Take what you like and leave the rest.

The OP sounds like she want to modify a pad, not the saddle. In that case, go ahead and buy whatever pad you'd like. In addition to considering a Mattes pad, or some similar 4-pocket shim pad, you might also call Tom Clark at Skito pads. He's a nice guy and thinks hard about saddle fit. They also make a high-quality, closed cell foam kind of pad that last forever. Skito will work with you to build a pad to your specifications for english, western or endurance saddles. You have an unusual problem, at least for the english saddle-fitting world though perhaps not for the QH HUS world. Tom might be able to help because he thinks about all kinds of saddling.

The philosophy part. It seems to me that western saddles work and fit along different lines from English saddles. While they follow the contours of a horse's back, they generally sit on top of it, rather than in it. So the scapulae rotate under the front of the skirt and thick pads seem to raise up the whole thing.

You might try to fit your horse this way, even though it breaks all english saddle fitting rules. I'd suggest reshaping the panels in such a way that the panels behind the withers are deep or long (think K-panels on a Black Country saddle for example, with the thickest part well back.) This way, your saddle can be raised in front, but by raising the whole saddle vertically.

You could also do the same thing with a custom-made pad, as Skito might be able to do for you.

I honestly don't know how QH HUS peeps fit horses that are croup high and very wide. My suggestion is to think outside the English saddle fitting box because, with all due respect to the competent folks at Trumbull Mountain, they don't seem to go "outside" to the western box.

If it were me, I'd first study the Skito web-site pics for their pad options. Then I'd spend a day screwing around with something like a no-bow bandage placed underneath my saddle in the right place-- like a pommel pad, but further back. Finally, I'd call Tom and get serious.

Let us know the solution when you find it!

[NikiP]

How about a riser pad for the front?

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=2e87bf59-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204ae5

Someone suggested this on a thread about a month or so back & I ended up buying one. My ASB is under muscled (a work in progress...) & dealing with a low back so I needed something to help my saddle tilt up rather then down.

[LMH]

I believe Skito is an open cell foam-as is Equipedic, Toklat Ultra cell.

Cashel, Saddleright would be closed cell foams.

[FolsomBlues]

I am reluctant to reflock at this time, because the horse is coming back into work after a long layoff and will no doubt be changing shape. I hope to minimize the number of times the saddle will require reflocking and would prefer to wait until the horse builds up some topline.

There is a difference between "reflocking" and adjusting the flocking. Reflocking is completely taking out the old flocking and putting in new flocking. This typically costs around $200. Adjusting the flocking should only cost around $50 and should be done with a saddle fitter on site so that they can adjust it, you can ride in it, see how it fits the horse and feels to you, and then, if needed they can adjust it again and you can rinse and repeat. Even if there is not a saddle fitter in your area, see if there is one that would travel out to you. It would be well worth it to get the right fit. Wrong fit and you can really mess a horse up. Ask me how I know! ;)

[sublimequine]

Yes, but a horse who loses muscle, causing the saddle to be too wide which causes it to sit pommel-low, is an entirely different animal than the horse who is built downhill and the well-fitting saddle sits pommel-low where it's a rider issue mainly, though that does end up affecting the horse.

My mare is also downhill. 15hh at the withers, 15.1hh at the top of the hindquarters. I have experience in that arena too. ;)

[LarkspurCO]

I have a Barnsby that sat too low in the front, but for different reasons. The horse has a shark fin and dips behind the withers. Aside from riding low and having insufficient wither clearance, everything else about the saddle worked.

I rode in it for several months with a piece of cut sheepskin under the front of while the flocking broke in (saddle was barely used). I recently had the flocking adjusted by a professional fitter. She filled in the front and now the saddle is perfectly balanced.

Sometimes padding up a minor fit problem works, sometimes not. It doesn't necessarily make a saddle too tight. I don't see a big difference between adding flocking to the saddle and adding padding under the saddle, except that flocking is much more specific and precise.

My other horse changes quite a bit throughout the year. I use different pads at different times for different reasons.

[goeslikestink]

Not too wide. The panels aren't gusseted, I don't believe. They just look like regular panels.

The horse is short-backed and croup high. He also hasn't been worked in three years, and I'm hoping as he builds topline the problem will correct itself.

:sigh: I suspect you're right - any pad I used will narrow the shoulder room. Oh, well - he'll be starting slowly back to work. If he's happy being sat on in the saddle with the pommel low, perhaps he'll be happy walking around for ten or fifteen minutes with the pommel low.:) If he's happy, I'm happy.

And my instructor already told me she doesn't care if it's a bit too low in the pommel. Tipped backwards is a major problem for rider position, according to her, but tipped slightly forwards isn't a big deal.


well i would care if its to low on the withers and there no gap, as when you add a rider
then it presses down into the withers which will make the horse buck or rear
and no pad is going to stop that already the horse shows signs of being uncomfortable so the saddle doesnt fit

go to a tack shop and ask if thy have a saddle fitter you can buy second hand saddles out of a good saddlery shop which should have a trianed saddlle fitter

[pAin't_Misbehavin']

How much do you want to raise the front? An inch? Half an inch? A couple of inches?

Nancy says she thinks it needs to come up about an inch. She's working from photographs, of course. The thing looked level to me! But then Quanah's always been croup high - so maybe I'm just used to looking at a downhill horse!:lol:

So did I read somewhere that someone simply duct-taped some shims to the top of her regular saddle pad temporarily? Is that a crazy idea?

Skito, I've heard, will custom-make a nice pad. I wonder, though, if the reason Skito caters mostly to western folk is that a saddle-fitter can adjust the flocking on an english saddle to compensate for the sort of issues a skito pad is designed to manage?

Once the little paint horse is muscled up again, I will probably hire a trailer and make the 150 mile trek to the nearest saddler. But I don't want to do it yet because he will be changing shape rapidly as he comes back into work.

Again, just want to emphasize that there is still clearance under the saddle, even with a rider up.:)

[JB]

How about a riser pad for the front?

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=2e87bf59-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204ae5

Someone suggested this on a thread about a month or so back & I ended up buying one. My ASB is under muscled (a work in progress...) & dealing with a low back so I needed something to help my saddle tilt up rather then down.

You *cannot* add more padding to any part of a saddle that fits as it should without making it too narrow. It might level the saddle, but now it's too narrow.

If it's to correct a too-wide fit, it's great, I've done it, it's a great thing to deal with muscle development. But that is not the same as lifting the front of a well-fitting saddle on a horse who is built downhill.

[JSwan]

JB - what saddles are made for downhill horses? I can't think of any that are made for or can be adjusted to fit such horses.

[Catmando]

Croup High horse with short backs don't wear Duetts well. ALL Duetts have gusseted panels. You will need shallower,upswept panels that will leave the horse by the 18th rib and will allow for croup high. Conditioning the horse is going to do very little to change croup high unless its a growing 2 year old. My horse takes a Duett 34cm in the front (aka hoop tree) but cannot use the gusseted panels because he is short backed and croup high. The panels would have to be changed out on the Duett to work for you.
As for saddle fitters...there are a handful of highly qualified fitters that will come to you in SC.

[JB]

JB - what saddles are made for downhill horses? I can't think of any that are made for or can be adjusted to fit such horses.
Not all can. It depends, but someone who makes "customized" saddles, like Black Country or County or the like, should have no problem creating the saddle such that there is more padding building up the front panels while still leaving the space between the panels appropriate for the width of the horse.

It may also be a matter of removing flocking from the rear of the panels - same thing is accomplished, but it depends on how the saddle is designed as to which would be better.

It's the same deal as this: When I had a County rep out to fit my horse, it was determined that the XW tree was perfect for his front end. But because he's built uphill, the stock amount of flocking made the saddle sit too low in back. If I had ordered, they would have increased the flocking in the back to level the saddle for him and me. It's the same principle, just doing it up front instead of behind.

Croup High horse with short backs don't wear Duetts well. ALL Duetts have gusseted panels.
You're right, I passed right on by that this was a Duett. Their panel shape does not lend itself to a curvier profile, which is what you'll get with a downhill build.

OP, can we see the pictures you sent to Duett?

You will need shallower,upswept panels that will leave the horse by the 18th rib and will allow for croup high.
Yep, either raise the pommel with more padding, or lower the cantel with reduced padding.

[pAin't_Misbehavin']

You're right, I passed right on by that this was a Duett. Their panel shape does not lend itself to a curvier profile, which is what you'll get with a downhill build.

OP, can we see the pictures you sent to Duett?
.

But, he's not curve-y at all - he's flat as a table. He's just . . .tilted.:confused::D When I tried saddles with any rock to them much at all, the cantle stuck way up in the air. The Duett was the first saddle that didn't do this.

In fact, that's the part I'm confused about. If the cantle is in contact with the horse, and there is still clearance under the pommel - then how can the saddle not be level? As I've said, it looked level to me IRL. But apparently not in the pictures I sent in. Which I guess is because I've looked at the horse so many years that he looks level to me by now.

I'd be happy for you to see the pics - only I'm at work and they're on my machine at home. If I'm not a premium member can I still post a link to pictures?

[JSwan]

Thanks, JB. One of my County's was custom made to fit my horse. He's a bit down hill, though.

His body changes dramatically as he become fit for hunting and saddle fit has been a challenge to say the least. Dagnabbit - I was hoping that you could wave a magic wand over my horse and fix it! :lol: I guess I'll keep having the fitter out.:)

[mvp]

To the OP. I think you need to have a detailed conversation with your saddle fitter about your croup-high, flat backed horse.

As I said, you may have begun to see him as level, and it's most likely that your english saddle experts don't often encounter this problem. It's often QHs and "breed show" type horses that come with downhill builds. In all the saddling discussions you see here or more english saddlers' websites, this kind of conformation isn't raised as a topic.

That doesn't mean you can't achieve a balanced fit for you horse, but it does mean that you may have to do more of the intellectual/engineering work in you teamwork with your saddler.

[pAin't_Misbehavin']

JSwan - I was just doing a search and thought I read in an old post that you have an equine comfort wither relief half pad? How thick is it?

I ask because I just got off the phone with Duett's saddle-fitter. He says that as long as the saddle is not touching the spine or wither, then for short rides we should be ok at first. Obviously, when we work up to longer rides, the flocking will need to be adjusted to compensate.

So. SF says "no" to any kind of correction or shim pad because he says one can't jack up part of a saddle without causing a bridging problem. He thinks that's why Quanah objected to my Mattes pad with just the front shims in place.

He says for right now my best bet might be just making sure I'm off the wither and keep rides short in duration till he muscles up. So, JSwan - if that equine comfort pad isn't too thick, I'm thinking that may be the short-term solution.:) Is it thicker than a regular quilted cotton pad?

[JSwan]

Oh heck - I'd forgotten we'd discussed this sort of thing before.

Yes, I have an Equine Comfort Pad. It's similar to the Fleeceworks pad but I think it was less expensive and from what I can tell - holds up better under repeated washings. You'll want to double check me on that as I'm sure opinions/experiences vary.

It's a sheepskin pad which took care of several of my requirements. Nonslip, breathability/wicking, and comfort for the horse.

Unfortunately I washed it on hot by mistake and it is now only suitable for a leadline saddle. :eek: But until I rushed through my horse laundry I washed it on cold with fabric softener and air dried it - it lasted for several years before the "incident".

Hope that helps.

I had also tried a Mattes Correction pad but honestly - all that "stuff" just made things worse - plus it was one more thing that could slip, be forgotten, twist or bunch out hunting. Just my opinion, though.

[pAin't_Misbehavin']

Oh, dear - so sorry about the "incident.":eek:

So, is it about the same thickness as a regular quilted pad would be? I've never used a sheepskin pad before.

I understand from reading your earlier posts that your horse is also downhill with tanklike shoulders and changes shape depending on workload - so I thought what worked for y'all might work for us.:)

[JSwan]

I can post a link to a photo of him if you like. He's just a little tank of a grade horse - about 16h, big shoulders, short back, no neck, gigantic head. But for such a sturdy tank - he's got very sensitive skin.

It is thicker than a regular pad, but since it is sheepskin it seems (to me) to be more malleable and it conforms to the horse's back a bit more. What I was very pleased to see was that after hunting, I could take the saddle and pad off and his back would be uniformly glistening with sweat. No rubbed hairs and no overheating or sensitivity.

Saddle fit has been a real issue with this horse and I don't think the pad is a cure - but of all the gizmos I've tried - it seems this pad works for our purposes.

[pAin't_Misbehavin']

Of course I'd love to see a picture.:)

I just got off the phone with the lady at Equine Comfort, who measured the sheepskin at the "keyhole" and says it's about 1/2 inch. Of course, it compresses when you sit on it.:)

So not too thick at all I wouldn't say. I believe I'm going to go ahead and order one from Dover. They seem to have the best price.

Thanks all for the advice. As JSwan says, I don't think this pad is the ultimate solution, but I think it might be our best bet for beginning short work sessions.:)

I've PM'd Catmando to ask if she'll send me the names of SC saddlefitters who might come to me. The closest ones I know of are in Camden, about two and a half hours away, and I don't have a trailer.

After we get a little muscle on the beastie's topline, and the wool flocking in the brand-new saddle has a chance to settle, then of course I'd want a professional fitter to take a look and adjust as needed.

Thanks again, y'all.:)

[Catersun]

I know what you are talking about, if the underside of the saddle fits the horse, it's more the rider that will have a problem with the saddle sloping forward, I think for now you will be ok. and I do have a truck and trailer, I'd be happy to haul you and the pony up to mike's. he's just up the street from the tack room now. I'm always looking for a good excuse to go to camden.

[pAin't_Misbehavin']

I know what you are talking about, if the underside of the saddle fits the horse, it's more the rider that will have a problem with the saddle sloping forward, I think for now you will be ok. and I do have a truck and trailer, I'd be happy to haul you and the pony up to mike's. he's just up the street from the tack room now. I'm always looking for a good excuse to go to camden.

Good to know, thanks.:cool: I've ordered the sheepskin wither relief pad and will be sending Quanah to study with Professor Vicky at Sunnyfield as soon as my Coggins comes back. She'll keep the sessions really short until he's fitter - at which time I'm sure we'll be up for a road trip to Camden. Thanks!:)