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Names Changed to Protect the Innocent
Apr. 18, 2009, 07:24 PM
Okay, I need some advice and yes, I’m using an alter. :D

This situation has been brewing for some time now and I don’t know where to turn. Obviously our trainer is involved but I need a second opinion from other, experienced H/J folks.

Here’s the history… my questions are at the end.

DD is 14 and has an 8 year old Hanoverian that is her Hunter/EQ partner. She also has a 20 year old Thoroughbred that is her Jumper partner.

Last summer DD’s Hunter/Eq horse got an abscess just after he turned 7. He’s never been lame a day since we got him 3 ½ years ago as a 4-year old. It was a nasty abscess – we thought it went away and then it returned with a vengeance. After it was all said and done, he was out of commission for approximately 6-8 weeks.

While he was out of commission, DD was riding her Jumper and realized that discipline is where her heart is long term.

Out of the blue, shortly after her Hunter/Eq horse returned to work late last summer, our trainer suggested we put him on the market and consider another horse in the barn that was for sale. After the idea sunk in and DD shed some tears and did some soul searching, DD decided that’s what she wanted to do so we put her boy on the market. DD understood that the only way we could buy the other horse was if her horse was sold. We discussed what would happen if things didn’t work out with the other horse and she said she still wanted to move forward and sell her horse regardless.

A few weeks later he was lame again. Lots of lameness exams, blocks, x-rays etc… later the vet determined that her horse needed to have his hocks injected. Side note: during the x-ray, a bone spur on his navicular was discovered – same foot as the abscess. It was not there when we did his pre-purchase exam. Vet is a very well respected sport horse vet and explained to me that her horse does not have navicular. He determined that her horse’s lameness was because he was sore in his hocks and therefore displaced his weight to the front which aggravated the bone spur. Horse got hock injections and a series of Adequan injections and has been sound since. Vet wants us to maintain him with monthly Adequan injections and do his hocks again this summer. He said there is no height limit to what DD can do with him and if he were to do a pre-purchase exam on her horse, he would pass. We also put back shoes on him recently.

Yes, DD wants to do Jumpers but even if her horse sells tomorrow, she still wants to finish her Hunter/Eq career. Her Thoroughbred will teach her what she needs to know about Jumpers in the meantime and she is content with that. Due to his age, we limit his shows and cap him at 2’6”. I wish he were 10 years younger because he's quiet competitive and loves his job.

DD’s Hunter/Eq horse is priced at $25,000 – as per our trainer’s recommendation.

As we all know, the market is weak. There are other horses for sale in our barn and our trainer gets calls all the time from people who want a been-there-done-that-proven winner-packer-less than 10 years old for $5,000 or less.

Her horse has an extremely floaty trot that is bouncy and takes some getting used to. He’s very cute, a beautiful mover, consistent, brave and honest to the jumps; however, he jumps flat – he doesn’t get round. No matter how many gymnastics they do, he can’t… it’s just not in his confirmation. She competes on the local circuit and he’s been very competitive – both as a Hunter as well as an Eq mount. He only had 30 days under saddle when we bought him and we all take great pride in the fact that she’s brought him along to where he is today. He’s taken her from SS to 3’0” (they are schooling 3’6” at home). He’s a great confidence builder and would be a great packer.

Part of me wonders if he’s overpriced. I know how the market is and he’s not “maintenance free”.

Question #1: What do you think about a horse with his resume with a bone spur on his navicular? Is it a deal breaker? How about the fact that with proper maintenance, he’s fine.

Question #2: If we drop his price, what do we drop it to? And, if we drop it, are we opening the door to people who don’t want to pay a lot upfront and therefore won’t be able to afford his maintenance?

Question #3: How do I attract the right buyer that will be able to afford to maintain him? Keep him price at $25,000 and when we find the “right” buyer, work out a deal?

He’s our baby and we want what’s best for him. We want him to go to a home where he’ll be loved and taken care of. Otherwise, no deal.

If we drop his price and he does sell, once you back out commission on him and new horse as well as a pre-purchase exam, then we have a small budget to work with so we’d be looking at something pretty green and she’d have to start over when she really needs to be doing Children’s and her age EQ and eventually Juniors.

Question #4: Since DD wants to finish her Hunter/Eq career anyway, should we even bother trying to sell him right now or just keep him since he’s more than capable – minus getting round over the jumps.

Please know that DD and I have already discussed the fact that given his situation and the market, it’s probably going to take a long time to get him sold and she’s okay with that and if it’s years from now and she’s finished her Hunter/Eq career and he still hasn’t sold, she’s okay with that too. If we keep him forever, then so be it and she’ll get a green-bean Jumper prospect while she’s in college and bring him along. DD is pretty mature for her age and has said to me “I have the rest of my life to do Jumpers”.

I'm sorry this was so long - I just wanted to give you all the facts.

Thank you in advance to those who take the time to read and to those who respond.

WorthTheWait95
Apr. 18, 2009, 07:34 PM
If she wants to finish her hunter/eq career and you already own a horse that is a suitable partner I'm not sure why you would sell him in the first place. Was the plan to sell him then buy another (fancier, -insert adjective here-,etc) hunter/eq horse?

Sorry, I read your post but at first I thought you were going to sell him and buy a jumper but then you said she wants to finish her hunter/eq career so I'm a little confused.

Names Changed to Protect the Innocent
Apr. 18, 2009, 07:54 PM
I know... it's confusing... sorry about that.

Even though her heart is ultimately set on competing as a Jumper, before she's ready to compete in Big Jumpers, she wants to learn how to do the height/find the distances as a Hunter. She's doesn't want to go into the 3'6" Jumper ring when she's still learning how to do that height as a Hunter - does that make sense?

Say she sells her horse tomorrow and finds a bonafide Jumper. She wants to show it as a Hunter/Eq horse first before moving over officially to Jumpers in a few years.

At the time our trainer suggested selling her horse, things were a lot different. Since that time, the other horse sold and we experienced the lameness issues and the market went further down the toilet.

I'm trying to sort through everything and was hoping you guys would help walk me through it! Sometimes I can't see the forrest for the trees! LOL

Vandy
Apr. 18, 2009, 08:25 PM
It's hard to say without seeing photos/video and without knowing the market in your area, but IMO it sounds like this horse is overpriced. I have a horse that sounds a bit like yours but DOES jump round and DOESN'T have the soundness issues, and he's priced lower than yours - and guess what? Not sold yet, and we keep dropping the price lower and lower!

If your daughter is cool with not going into the jumper ring immediately, why not keep this horse as an Eq horse for her and set the goal of moving up to the 3'6" equitation? In the eq ring, it's an advantage if the horse jumps flat, and the big eq is great prep for a rider's future career in the jumpers.

Lucassb
Apr. 18, 2009, 08:42 PM
Is there any chance you could keep the current horse (even if you leave him on the market, just in case the right buyer comes along) and focus on moving up in the equitation on him, with the goal of moving HIM into the jumpers?

If he doesn't jump round enough to be truly competitive in the hunters, it may be more fun for your DD to do him in the jumpers anyway, particularly if she is focused on doing equitation and really learning the ropes properly right now. Jumpers are a great division to add to an eq horse's resume - so ultimately you may find he is a lot more valuable as a made up Medals or USET horse, particularly if he learns to do the water well.

lonewolf
Apr. 18, 2009, 09:02 PM
I agree that if your daughter still wants to do the hunters and the eq, and the current horse is suitable, that you might as well keep him. I don't really see why you are trying to sell him anyway, since your daughter is not yet ready to move on.

As Lucas pointed out, there is no reason why your current horse can't cross over and show in a few lower level jumper classes. Since he jumps flat and is brave and easy, it may well be that his real market will eventually be as an eq horse. Those horses should be able to go in any ring. And it will be nice for your daughter to get mileage on a horse she already knows well.

Depending on how fancy your horse is, the price sounds like it may be appropriate (depending on where you live). If he is nice enough to get ribbons at the rated shows, I would think it is about right, as long as the horse passes a vet check despite the spur (as your vet said he should). Doesn't necessarily mean that you will get it right now, though. I would leave the price at a level you think is fair, and just let DD continue to show the horse and let the chips fall where they may. No need for a fire sale.

Names Changed to Protect the Innocent
Apr. 18, 2009, 09:08 PM
Is there any chance you could keep the current horse (even if you leave him on the market, just in case the right buyer comes along) and focus on moving up in the equitation on him, with the goal of moving HIM into the jumpers?

:lol: Oh, how I wish. At least once a week I say "if only he was a Jumper". :lol: DD's horse is a bonafide Hunter, through-and-through. There is not a Jumper-bone in that boy's body.

Names Changed to Protect the Innocent
Apr. 18, 2009, 09:20 PM
I agree that if your daughter still wants to do the hunters and the eq, and the current horse is suitable, that you might as well keep him. I don't really see why you are trying to sell him anyway, since your daughter is not yet ready to move on...

...I would leave the price at a level you think is fair, and just let DD continue to show the horse and let the chips fall where they may. No need for a fire sale.

Wolf, that's kind of where I'm at. I believe things happen for a reason. If the "right" buyer comes along, then so be it. Definitely no need for a fire sale. Especially since she can continue to progress and move up and accomplish her current goals with him.

We made the decision to sell him based on our trainer's suggestion last summer - she's the pro and we trust her opinion a lot. Since then, things have changed... the other horse she wanted us to buy has since been sold, we experienced the lameness issues and the market went further down the toilet.

I am just afraid I'm "barn blind" (I think that's the expression) as far as his price is concerned - even though our trainer still believes it's reasonable.

Thank you to everyone for your time and opinions. I appreciate it.

tyedyecommando
Apr. 18, 2009, 09:34 PM
:lol: Oh, how I wish. At least once a week I say "if only he was a Jumper". :lol: DD's horse is a bonafide Hunter, through-and-through. There is not a Jumper-bone in that boy's body.

Except he jumps flat.

Not sure why he could not be a jumper, unless he doesn't jump clean or totally lacks a motor. In that case he doesn't belong in the hunter ring either.

Thing is you have a unsound horse. Unless he is fabulously outstanding you will have a hard time selling a lame horse. You are either going to have to make due with what you have, or drop the price. I suppose the question is if you drop the price, you can afford another prospect? Is it out of the question the lease out the older horse to free up fund for something else?

mrsbradbury
Apr. 18, 2009, 09:47 PM
Why can't the horse in question do the jumpers?

He jumps flat, he's floaty, you love him, he's schooling 3'6", he would do the eq...

I am a bit confused on what a jumper bone is.:winkgrin:

Over the years, I have had students do the jumpers with their honest to goodness round jumping fancy hunters for kicks. The kids loved it, the horses loved it and it rounds out the experience.

heartinrye
Apr. 19, 2009, 12:03 AM
Why not lease out hunter/eq horse and let DD lease a nice 3'6 horse that CAN do the eq and jumpers, and let her figure out if her heart REALLY is in the jumpers, or if she does want to finish out the eq career.

I grew up in the jumpers and had my heart set on the hunters, but my parents made me lease a hunter first, before buying one, thank god they did- I couldn't stand the hunters!! Now I will forever be content in the jumper ring, hauling butt!

fourmares
Apr. 19, 2009, 01:38 AM
There's really no reason that the hunter/eq horse can't do jumpers up to 3'6". If he's good enough to do eq. to 3'6", he's good enough to do jumpers... since the TB is limited to 2'6" your daughter really can't learn to do jumpers with him... I'm sorry, but 2'6" jumper classes aren't really jumper classes and ought to all be run under Argentinian time anyways since it's truely unsafe to go fast over those tiny jumps.

Plumcreek
Apr. 19, 2009, 02:02 AM
Did he jump flat because his hocks hurt for long enough to form a bone spur up front? Has the roundness of his jump changed post hock injections? They have to push up off the hocks to jump round.

Names Changed to Protect the Innocent
Apr. 19, 2009, 07:50 AM
Good Morning... thank you again for the opinions. I'm going to try to answer the recent questions.

tyedyecommando... with the exception of the fact that he jumps flat, everything about him is a hunter. It's hard for me to explain - I'm just the horsey-mom. ;) He's got that nice, collected, hunter pace. He's definitely got the stride but he's lazy. He jumps clean the majority of the time but when he does happen to take a rail, he really doesn't care. :eek: He's not like our thoroughbred who does everything in his power to jump clean, no matter the situation. Does that makes sense?

mrsbradbury... :lol: yes, it's hard to explain how he's lacking a jumper bone but when you see DD ride him and DD ride our thoroughbred, the difference between the two is obvious. I keep telling DD and our trainer that they should try jumpers with her horse and they both laugh. :lol:

heartinrye... DD's heart is definitely in jumpers. She's figured out that from riding our thoroughbred. She always thought she might like to try jumpers and when we got our thoroughbred, it gave her the opportunity to try it out. She loves the thrill and the challenging courses. That's why she likes Eq as well... they aren't the same ol' basic courses. :winkgrin:

fourmares... same as what I told tyedyecommando/mrsbradbury but I do want to add... I agree, 2'6" really isn't truly representative of jumpers but it gives her a place to start and build her confidence. A lot of the basics of how to ride a jumper are being built and she's learning how to think like a jumper. They do school 3'0" at home but in order to preserve our old man, we don't let her show him any higher than 2'6"-2'9" on a regular basis. ;)

Plumcreek... that's a good question and I don't know the answer but I will ask our trainer. ;) I don't think the hock injections have improved his ability to get round over the jumps. I think it has more to do with the confirmation in his shoulder. One reason it's hard to say is because they've come up through the ranks together and he never really had to use himself over the jumps at 2'0" and 2'6" because the jumps were so small.

mrsbradbury
Apr. 19, 2009, 08:42 AM
mrsbradbury... :lol: yes, it's hard to explain how he's lacking a jumper bone but when you see DD ride him and DD ride our thoroughbred, the difference between the two is obvious. I keep telling DD and our trainer that they should try jumpers with her horse and they both laugh. :lol:



Well, I will not start an argument with what your trainer has said. But.. of course the two horses differences are odvious, one is a TB and one is a WB. They take different rides.

Let me ask you this... Is the horse in question stopping? (I think you said somewhere that he was honest)

If this horse were in my barn, and you were my client; hypothetically speaking... We would not reduce the price of your $25,000 horse to buy another horse for less than $5,000. We would continue with the horse you own and do the division you want... unless there is something truly wrong with this horse that makes him physically incapable of the job.

FYI: your daughter is not old enough to laugh at you, you pay board/training/lessons on 2 horses. You definitely have a say and deserve a bonafide answer as to why this horse cannot do the other ring.

Couture TB
Apr. 19, 2009, 10:30 AM
I thought Eq horses had to have a round jump and not pull rails? I had a friend who did the Maclay and that was one of the things that she said was harder to find. A horse with fancy gaits, that will have a round jump, not pull rails, and jump the different looking Eq fences at the requested gait. Just wondering. I do eventing and sell off the really quiet ones that only have nice round jumping form (but they really don't want to be eventers!) as hunters. Is a flat jump ok for the hunter and eq ring then?

WorthTheWait95
Apr. 19, 2009, 10:33 AM
I thought Eq horses had to have a round jump and not pull rails? I had a friend who did the Maclay and that was one of the things that she said was harder to find. A horse with fancy gaits, that will have a round jump, not pull rails, and jump the different looking Eq fences at the requested gait. Just wondering. I do eventing and sell off the really quiet ones that only have nice round jumping form (but they really don't want to be eventers!) as hunters. Is a flat jump ok for the hunter and eq ring then?

In hunters a round jump is desireable (the knees to chin jump) in the eq a flat jump is preferred b/c there is less risk of jarring the rider out of position. In any H/J ring being careful is a must.

Vandy
Apr. 19, 2009, 10:34 AM
In any H/J ring being careful is a must.Don't forget, there have been a few Medal/Maclay finals winners who've had a rail! Obviously, you don't want a sloppy horse who has rails every time out, but on occasional rail in the Big Eq isn't the kiss of death that it is in the hunter ring.

findeight
Apr. 19, 2009, 11:01 AM
OP...take a deep breath here. DD is doing the -0 level Jumpers and that's not really going to give her a taste of anything. Heck, I even do that sometimes with a Hunter just to mix it up.

Have to say disagree with the trainer flatly saying this horse cannot do the sub level 0 to level 2 Jumpers based on him being a flat Jumper and lazy. DD can learn to help that one out a little by learning to be a stronger rider.

Also don't think it's etched in stone DD will actually like the real world of the Jumpers when she actually starts showing and the fences start getting bigger and wider. Have seen alot of talented kids sort of choke and spit it out when they get to tough competition-when the fences get big and you have to go fast plus be accurate? No amount of at home schooling duplicates the pressure of jumping a professionally designed and built course. I wouldn't bet the farm she will stick with that....and you bet I know those who have dropped high 5 to low 6 figures into a level 6+ Jumper the kid just had to have only to have the kid just chuck it within a year. They get a little older, get more non horsey intersest and/or take a couple of falls and get hurt and just lose the drive.

Don't think the price here is your biggest issue. IMO, you don't need another horse right now. Have DD and trainer work harder with what she has. If nothing else, it will broaden his resume and make him more attractive to buyers while improving DD's overall riding.

With PPE questions, 25k may be high...and, confused, what has this one done in the show ring? IF, DD gets on it and this one proves he can do 3' to 3'6" Hunters with success at the shows, learns to fire enough to get around the Jumper ring and proves himself a capable Eq horse AND stay sound?

You would get that easily, or more, more as proven performance staying sound at the job a buyer is looking for can trump PPE questions.

But right now? I would not sell. Keep him. Schedual a meeting with your trainer to discuss doing as much as you can to get this one going in the Jumpers. Heck, if my Hunter can get around a level 1 or 2 course within the time allowed? But, then again, I can ride an accurate track that beats a running fool. DD can learn that if I can.

dcm
Apr. 19, 2009, 12:29 PM
From one Mom to another, keep the horses you have.

I have one of those hunter/eq types and he has gotten around the childrens jumper courses fine - and ribboned at the local A's. He's about the laziest horse around. We used to joke about getting him a belly guard because he skims over just enough to not knock a rail and no more. In nearly every o/f picture we have of him in the 8 years we have owned him, he has one foot on the ground. I can think of maybe one photo from a USET class where he might have all four off the ground.

My daughter, now 22, had to work hard to get this boy around because he was so slow and lazy. He taught her so much about riding. We have leased him for the past 5 years, and over that time, my daughter has developed the "jumper bug". We used his lease money to lease some nice been there jumpers and had a blast with her showing the adult jumpers. We also purchased a young horse who is now 5 and looking like she wants to do jumpers.

We've had a blast over the years, and so has our eq horse. He's moved down, but still loves to horse show. He still gets "frisky" at his first show. He has a few more years before retirement, and by that time we should be able to give him a very comfy retirement. It's the best of both worlds. ;)

poltroon
Apr. 19, 2009, 12:45 PM
I would keep him.

The eq ring is a good preparation for jumpers, riding technical courses at a measured pace. And I agree that there's no reason she can't try the jumpers with him too... but honestly, there's plenty to do in equitation.

Rather than sell this horse, who seems to be going well for your daughter, and since you're not thinking he'll net enough to buy anything but a green bean anyway, I'd be thinking that the older horse is going to be ready to retire or perhaps be free leased to another rider soon, and looking at a good green TB prospect to replace him. A few months of paying board on only one horse might save you enough to find a useful OTTB.

Names Changed to Protect the Innocent
Apr. 19, 2009, 12:52 PM
WOW - once again, COTH'ers answer the call of duty. :D Thank you!

You guys have given me a lot to think about. I truly appreciate it. You know how sometimes you just need to talk something out? However, this is horsey-related so it's hard to talk it out with just anyone. :lol:

mrsbradbury... extremely good point... it's not fair to compare him to a TB - definitely not apples to apples. To answer your question, he's not a stopper. The only time he stopped was early last summer and guess what - the very next day he was dead lame from the abscess. DD and I do need to sit down with our trainer and discuss this.

findeight... thank you for the confidence that there is a chance DD can help her boy become a jumper (should she decide to continue down the jumper path). And I agree, in the meantime, as a hunter/eq partner, as they continue to progress to higher levels, it will only make him more valuable (experience-wise, not necessarily monetary-wise) and will make her a better rider.

To answer your question, they've done local C-rated stuff with a few B-rated shows thrown in. He holds his own in mid-sized entries with decent competition. Started in SS, moved to Intermediate Children's and now they are in Children's. Also done the age EQ and state medal along the way, again holding their own in mid-sized entries with decent competition. They've got several tri-color ribbons and champions to their credit and received a pastel year-end state-HJA ribbon for Eq.

A complete stranger took him on trial to a local show and he packed her around in 2'0". She got her first blue ribbon ever on him and he ended up champion. She ended up just being a tire kicker - don't get me started - that's a whole 'nother thread. :mad:

That being said, I think the thing you said that resignates the most with me is... IF this one proves he can do 3' to 3'6" Hunters with success at the shows... AND stay sound... as proven performance staying sound at the job a buyer is looking for can trump PPE questions.

Like you and mrsbradbury said, we will take your advice and talk to our trainer, revisit DD's goals and her horse's potential.

Names Changed to Protect the Innocent
Apr. 19, 2009, 01:04 PM
Ok, now back to something that is really eating at me... Question #1 in my original post:

What do you think about a horse with his resume with a bone spur on his navicular? Is it a deal breaker? How about the fact that with proper maintenance, he’s fine. Our vet would pass a horse like him in a PPE and our trainer also sees no reason for concern.

Someone earlier referred to him as "unsound" and said we'd have trouble selling a "lame" horse. Is that really what we have? Are the supplements and injections merely band-aids, covering up a lame horse? :sadsmile:

Please, please, please don't take that the wrong way... I just seriously want to know - vet and trainer both tell me everything's okay but is that true... what are people's perceptions of a horse like ours? :sadsmile:

By the way, funny story... we took him to a horse-psychic at a show a few years ago (for giggles) and she asked him about him. He told her he likes me but I'm anal about his health. :D

WorthTheWait95
Apr. 19, 2009, 01:14 PM
Ok, now back to something that is really eating at me... Question #1 in my original post:

What do you think about a horse with his resume with a bone spur on his navicular? Is it a deal breaker? How about the fact that with proper maintenance, he’s fine. Our vet would pass a horse like him in a PPE and our trainer also sees no reason for concern.

Someone earlier referred to him as "unsound" and said we'd have trouble selling a "lame" horse. Is that really what we have? Are the supplements and injections merely band-aids, covering up a lame horse? :sadsmile:

Please, please, please don't take that the wrong way... I just seriously want to know - vet and trainer both tell me everything's okay but is that true... what are people's perceptions of a horse like ours? :sadsmile:

By the way, funny story... we took him to a horse-psychic at a show a few years ago (for giggles) and she asked him about him. He told her he likes me but I'm anal about his health. :D

I think it's hard for anyone on the internet to be able to give much of an educated opinion on that without knowing the horse, seeing the rads, etc. I would listen to your vet if you have faith in him/her and just know that a bone spur can cause some pretty significant problems down the road soundness wise. It could also turn out to never cause any probelms it really depends on the horse, the spur, the work load, etc. You're at an advantage in that you KNOW it's there and can maintain him accordingly.

As a buyer I would have to say that it would be a major deterrent for me in purchasing the horse (my vet would for sure fail any horse with a bone spur b/c of the potential problems down the road) unless the horse was absolutely perfect in every other way. He would have to be a proven horse at the level I want to show with lots of experience and a great attitude for me to consider it and the price tag would have to compensate for it as well. There are just lots of 3'6" horses out there with experience and without bone spurs so he would need an impressive record to make it worth the risk IMO.

Names Changed to Protect the Innocent
Apr. 19, 2009, 01:16 PM
dcm... from one Mom to another, thank you. It can be hard to see clearly when my emotions for DD and her/our baby are involved. ;)

poltroon... let's assume she gives him a whirl in the jumper ring and it doesn't pan out, that's kind of what I'm thinking as a long-term plan.

Names Changed to Protect the Innocent
Apr. 19, 2009, 01:25 PM
I think it's hard for anyone on the internet to be able to give much of an educated opinion on that without knowing the horse, seeing the rads, etc. I would listen to your vet if you have faith in him/her and just know that a bone spur can cause some pretty significant problems down the road soundness wise. It could also turn out to never cause any probelms it really depends on the horse, the spur, the work load, etc. You're at an advantage in that you KNOW it's there and can maintain him accordingly.

As a buyer I would have to say that it would be a major deterrent for me in purchasing the horse (my vet would for sure fail any horse with a bone spur b/c of the potential problems down the road) unless the horse was absolutely perfect in every other way. He would have to be a proven horse at the level I want to show with lots of experience and a great attitude for me to consider it and the price tag would have to compensate for it as well. There are just lots of 3'6" horses out there with experience and without bone spurs so he would need an impressive record to make it worth the risk IMO.

I know it's hard to say but I appreciate the "general" input.

It's good advice and it's kind of what I thought and I'm okay with that.

Like findeight said too, let's see how he does at 3'0" and 3'6" performance/soundness-wise.

That's why I wonder if his price tag is too high - at least given the current market. There are too many other "maintenance-free" horses out there for less. Honestly, if we were buying a horse, I'd walk away but then again, like he told the psychic, I'm anal. :winkgrin:

atintofmint
Apr. 19, 2009, 01:29 PM
Ok, now back to something that is really eating at me... Question #1 in my original post:

What do you think about a horse with his resume with a bone spur on his navicular? Is it a deal breaker? How about the fact that with proper maintenance, he’s fine. Our vet would pass a horse like him in a PPE and our trainer also sees no reason for concern.

Someone earlier referred to him as "unsound" and said we'd have trouble selling a "lame" horse. Is that really what we have? Are the supplements and injections merely band-aids, covering up a lame horse? :sadsmile:

Please, please, please don't take that the wrong way... I just seriously want to know - vet and trainer both tell me everything's okay but is that true... what are people's perceptions of a horse like ours? :sadsmile:

By the way, funny story... we took him to a horse-psychic at a show a few years ago (for giggles) and she asked him about him. He told her he likes me but I'm anal about his health. :D



I have a 14yr old Hanoverian who also needs the hock injections and supplements, as far as injections/ supplements go they make the horse "servicably sound" without the matience your guy would probably go lame again I sure know mine would be stiff without. And while it may be a deal breaker for some I can sure tell you alot of horses in my barn are injected and still have sold for a considerable amount of money. He sounds nice, I hope you figure it all out:)

hb
Apr. 19, 2009, 01:38 PM
Did you say he was only 8 years old? Needing maintenance like that at age 8 would make me more hesitant than if he were 14-16 years old. Combined with changes in the x-rays of the front feet that might be enough to make a lot of people pass on him.

Lostboy
Apr. 19, 2009, 01:48 PM
I would continue to show him and do some of the jumper stuff too.. remember you can lope around and do nice 3 stride turns and best most of the "runners". dont confuse hot, quick or speedy as a requirement for the jumper ring.. we cross hunters/eq horses and eq/jumpers horses into all the rings.. its really a matter of learning rating and finding spots accurately.. I am NOT a fan of the 3' and under jumpers (unless argentine rules) I feel it has become a mecca for kids who have no idea where a spot is to go bonzai around and get a ribbon merely because they didnt crash anything..I do not feel it promotes better riding.

as far as the xray thing..that is a biggie, the horse would need a consistant calender show record to prove that he hasn't been off for soundness reasons. even then 25K is probably double what I would pay. That being said I wouldn't just drop the price to 10K either.. I would go to under 20 and be willing to accept an offer. at 10 people are gonna want to offer 8 or 5 or whatever ..
also you should determine what your maintence costs are.. and will typically be for a year.. that will help you decide what offer to take and if the cost isn't horrifying you can let the buyer know what it is... if its similar to NASA funding then just keep that to yourself, if its simple maintence/low number then make sure the buyer know the good news.

also as far as the jumping flat/not popping at the withers/swivelling the hips like a jumper thing... so what, you child can stay in the saddle easier. If he gets over the fences safely and is willing to go around and let her develop her skills.. that is good enough.. you dont have the clear a fence by 2 feet or more.. just get over each one.. one at a time .

Lucassb
Apr. 19, 2009, 02:56 PM
Ok, now back to something that is really eating at me... Question #1 in my original post:

What do you think about a horse with his resume with a bone spur on his navicular? Is it a deal breaker? How about the fact that with proper maintenance, he’s fine. Our vet would pass a horse like him in a PPE and our trainer also sees no reason for concern.

Someone earlier referred to him as "unsound" and said we'd have trouble selling a "lame" horse. Is that really what we have? Are the supplements and injections merely band-aids, covering up a lame horse? :sadsmile:

Please, please, please don't take that the wrong way... I just seriously want to know - vet and trainer both tell me everything's okay but is that true... what are people's perceptions of a horse like ours? :sadsmile:

By the way, funny story... we took him to a horse-psychic at a show a few years ago (for giggles) and she asked him about him. He told her he likes me but I'm anal about his health. :D

Depends on how educated the buyer is, I think. The reality is that very, very few horses that work for a living will have perfect PPEs. Of course ideally your horse would not have that bone spur but if you can keep him going and demonstrate that he is sound in work, over time - with a verifiable show record? The spur may be a point of negotiation on price, perhaps, but isn't going to be a deal breaker for most knowledgeable buyers.

Personally I would share the info (and possibly your vet's records) with the buyer ahead of their PPE (probably when they indicate they would like to go forward and schedule an eval with their vet) and demonstrate that you are not trying to hide anything, and share what the horse's program is. If you can show that the horse has been sound and in regular work, that approach plus your honesty is going to go a long way with most buyers.

Names Changed to Protect the Innocent
Apr. 19, 2009, 03:41 PM
atintofmint... thank you, we think he is. He's pretty special to us. ;)

hb... yes, he's turning 8 this year and I've had the same thoughts you have.

Lostboy... you're right - horses don't have to be hot or speedy to be a jumper. As far as learning to find distances accurately, that's why DD wants to finish her hunter/eq career first before moving over to jumpers - she wants to learn how to do 3'0"/3'6" in the hunter ring first and have that confidence and experience under her belt before she does it in the jumper ring. Thanks for the advice on price and advising buyers on his maintanence - that's what I needed to know.

Lucassb... thank you for the reassurance. We'll see how this show season goes now that he's sound and on a maintanence program - knock on wood. The proof is in the pudding. Thank you for the advice on how and when to share the information with a potential buyer. Full disclosure is a must.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
Apr. 19, 2009, 10:04 PM
I, too, have an eq horse who is the love of my life. He taught me sooooo much. But he was a maintenance case, also because of navicular troubles. After a few seasons trucking me around the rings at the local A shows, he started to slip a bit, and we realized at 15, he would need to be retired. Luckily, we were able to retire him to our family farm where he lives a comfortable life today at the age of 23.

You talk about this horse as if he is a member of your family. While he may stay sound for several years with the right maintenance program, what happens once the demands of horse showing and his athletic career begin to take a toll on his body? When arthritis sets in? When the hock injections are not enough, and he requires an expensive, detailed program to stay healthy?

While most people don't flinch at an 8 year old with simple maintanence requirements, there aren't many who are willing to give the old guys a place to live out their days in comfort. If you really care about this horse the way you seem to, please consider where he might end up if this soundness issue means the end of his career a few years down the road, which is a very likely possibility if he continues showing heavily.

I have a soft spot for the guys that teach us so much. It was not an easy decision to keep my old man once it was clear he couldn't maintain the same level of performance that I required at that time in my life. But it was the only one to be made considering how much he'd done for me in terms of showing me the ropes. My horse was probably your horse to a "T" at age 8- probably had some kind of potential problem that expressed itself when he started to age. I like to think he's lucky that I got him when I did, as his retirement wouldn't have been secured otherwise.

nycrider2004
Apr. 19, 2009, 11:31 PM
I thought Eq horses had to have a round jump and not pull rails? I had a friend who did the Maclay and that was one of the things that she said was harder to find. A horse with fancy gaits, that will have a round jump, not pull rails, and jump the different looking Eq fences at the requested gait. Just wondering. I do eventing and sell off the really quiet ones that only have nice round jumping form (but they really don't want to be eventers!) as hunters. Is a flat jump ok for the hunter and eq ring then?

To the poster above – not sure if this is what you meant... but don't confuse flatness with scope....you want a horse that doesn't jump hard but that has the ability to make different distances look effortless as well as a big enough stride to give you lots of options in lines.

As for the OP - I think pricing is incredibly difficult to comment on so I'm going to let that be. However, regarding the strategy of timing for selling the horse - I think others are right in suggesting your horse remain on the market but that you make sure your daughter is making the best use of him to build the skills she'll need for the future.

What's a bit confusing is that from your posts it sounds like the horse is fully capable to show in the hunters and eq up to 3'6" - which in my mind means he has the scope and stride to handle the course as well as the ridability to do rollbacks, bending lines, etc. If he's got a good brain it also sounds like he should have no problem with colored fences etc. It also sounds like he is now sound and fully good to go as long as you keep him properly maintained

If the above is the case then, as others have noted, you can show any horse in any division. Their level of competitiveness is a different question. Your current horse may not be as competitive in the jumper ring as in the hunter/eq ring but assuming he turns and jumps your daughter can certainly show in a jumper class. She may have rails and/or time faults but then the goal becomes to work to improve those things - either via training the horse at home (ie building his capacity) or learning to ride more effectively (ie building her capacity).

Moreover if your daughter can show the horse in the 3’ and 3’6” hunters and eq she should be able to show in the jumpers even if it’s not the horse’s forte.

After I would qualify we would show my eq horse in the low jr jumpers to keep our skills sharp and to expand my riding skills. He was no jumper (we used to call him helen keller because he liked to feel his way around the course:) but the idea was to work on going from where we were - proud members of the 4 faulters club - to getting into the jump off, etc. We’d also work on our making more difficult turns and adding and taking out strides so that we learned the breadth of our capability to use for finals.

Good luck!

Names Changed to Protect the Innocent
Apr. 20, 2009, 07:29 AM
Good Morning Everyone... thank you again for all your insight and support. It's helped me tremendously. I think I've always known in my heart and gut what the answer was but I just needed to talk it out and hear it from other people. ;)

FrenchFrytheEqHorse... I touched on this with my response to poltroon but didn't go into detail. Since we found out about the bone spur last fall, I've often wondered, what if he can't stay sound doing bigger heights? What if we have a horse that has to be retired at age 15? If that happens, that's 7 years from now. By then, our now 20 year TB will more than likely be retired himself or a school horse. DD will be in college and she could get a green-bean prospect to bring along. Even now as a 14 year old, she can "ride green all day long" as our trainer says. :winkgrin:

That's why I've struggled so much with "how do I ensure a buyer can afford to maintain him"? We would never want him to go to someone that would not take care of him properly. He was/still is my daughter's first love and he deserves nothing but the best. That's why we insist on full disclosure about his maintenance because the thought of him hurting breaks our hearts.

Again, I believe things happen for a reason and I believe that's why he came up lame again as soon as we put him up for sale. There was something wrong that was brewing and he needed to remain at his home with DD until we figured out what it was and fixed it.

Look up "soft spot" in the dictionary and there's my picture. :lol:

nycrider2004... thank you. I totally agree with you as well as the other posters. We haven't given him a fair shot as a jumper. I think the only concern is that he's not "super" careful and will take a rail if DD gets them in a funky spot. Our TB, on the other hand, will do everything in his power to avoid taking a rail. I know they are different breeds but that's the difference in their personalities. That being said, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said the following...

"She may have rails and/or time faults but then the goal becomes to work to improve those things - either via training the horse at home (ie building his capacity) or learning to ride more effectively (ie building her capacity)... We’d also work on our making more difficult turns and adding and taking out strides so that we learned the breadth of our capability to use for finals."

We have a great trainer, DD is a great rider and we have a great horse. That combination is what has gotten them where they're at today. I think it's possible for them to continue to succeed, hopefully even in the jumper ring, if that's what DD ultimately wants to do.

JustJump
Apr. 20, 2009, 08:34 AM
Not to shake your confidence, but you need to have your daughter's situation evaluated by another trainer. I'm wondering why she didn't try to sell or lease your successful stepping stone horse within the barn, to a lower level rider, killing several birds with one stone, and keeping at least two clients happy in the process. Sounds like you are stuck in a rut, at a time when your daughter, if she is to be successful in reaching her goals should be mapping out a program to do that.

In the meantime, doing jumpers on a 20 yo horse at 2'6" is not exactly the most valid litmus test on which to make a decision. If she has been successful at that level on him, she's likely ready to move up in that division; a 20 yo horse will not see her through that transition. If he's good at his job, a lower level rider should be allowed to gain from his experience so he can keep doing his job within his comfort level, while your daughter moves on.

If your 15 yo horse can do it, and she knows him, and he can make the grade, moving up to 3'6" big eq on him at the shows would be the direction I'd go, and I would be saving those bigger jumps for the horse shows, not using them up at home. BTW, the flat arc is quite an asset in the eq, a drawback as a hunter. Hunter and eq are not the same, most of the crossover happens at the lower levels -3', and not much beyond 3' and up.

If there are other horses in the barn for sale, and DD needs to gain experience, I'd think that a good opportunity would exist for her to get it riding them. Again, this is up to your trainer...I would have thought this might have been considered.

Leasing your WB might be a better way to go if he won't do the 3'6", especially given that your time on him there is bound to be limited. If you treat him appropriately, he should last a good long while; if he lasts 5 years, and you lease him for a modest 5K per year, there's your 25K, and you can set some of that aside for a pension fund if you wind up retiring him.

There are a lot of possibilities that you might consider, in fact, but you have received good advice here to digest.

But, reading between the lines, my gut feeling is that there are three possibilities:

The first being that your daughter is ready to move up, and you have through a lack of foresight, bad luck, and perhaps a serious deficiency in the professional help department, not managed to position yourselves to allow for that,

or

Your daughter has not, on a 20 yo jumper and a rapidly aging starter hunter that has seen plenty of mothballing over the past year gained sufficient experience to move up yet, and you may be overestimating her capabilities.
Again, I wonder about the advice you have received so far from your trainer--given supportive parents, even the present bad market should not be such an obstacle that some arrangement couldn't be arrived at.

For instance, supporting one good, capable horse as opposed to two whose days are clearly numbered and whose values are not rising, ever, would be the way I'd be suggesting you do it.

The third possibility is that your trainer has already told you all this, and you have chosen to disregard it. Some clients are far harder to manage than the horses they own.

You sound reasonable, though. So I'm leaning hard toward possibility #1.

Either way, the bottom line is that your daughter needs more horsepower, and its up to you and your trainer (or another, more experienced one) working together to make it happen for her, while honoring the commitment to her present horses to provide for their best interests.

Mara
Apr. 20, 2009, 08:41 AM
I have to jump in here and say how happy it makes me that you and your daughter are so committed to doing the right thing by the horse. :)

Names Changed to Protect the Innocent
Apr. 20, 2009, 10:08 AM
Mara... thank you. ;)

JustJump… thank you for your opinion. Just to clarify, the horse in question is coming 8 this year, not 15. I apologize for the confusion. :)

To answer your question, our trainer hasn’t sold him to someone within our barn because there presently isn’t someone in our barn in the market to buy a horse, more specifically, a horse like him, much less that can afford our asking price – or even close to it. We haven’t explored the lease option because it’s not as if DD has outgrown him. They are still learning, growing and gaining experience together at 3’0”-3’6” and she plans to finish her hunter/eq career before she moves over to jumpers permanently and he can do that for her. Historically, all the leases at our barn have been free leases. If the clientele at our barn could afford to drop $5K, they’d be buying a horse of their own rather than leasing one.

The only other horses in the barn that are for sale are green beans – either OTTB or born and raised on the farm. DD rides them for our trainer and has even showed a few for our trainer, but only in either 2’0” or 2’6”. There is only one other horse at our barn that's big enough for DD (she's very tall) and capable of doing what DD wants to achieve (hunters/eq/jumpers) but he's not for sale and even if he was, we couldn't afford him and we'd still have a horse of our own to sell first.

Could DD herself do 3’0” jumpers this year? Yes. However, her main priority is her 8 year old WB and finishing her hunter/eq career and having that foundation in the higher divisions and being able to see those distances properly before she focuses solely on jumpers. Because we have a budget, she will take our 20 year old TB to only a handful of shows this year.

Our 20 year old TB is extremely good at his job and DD already shares him with a lower level rider – ME. :cool: He’s technically my horse and DD shares him with me to satisfy her jumper craving. She loves it, he loves it and everyone’s happy.

trainer a
Apr. 20, 2009, 10:15 AM
Ok, now back to something that is really eating at me... Question #1 in my original post:

What do you think about a horse with his resume with a bone spur on his navicular? Is it a deal breaker? How about the fact that with proper maintenance, he’s fine. Our vet would pass a horse like him in a PPE and our trainer also sees no reason for concern.

Someone earlier referred to him as "unsound" and said we'd have trouble selling a "lame" horse. Is that really what we have? Are the supplements and injections merely band-aids, covering up a lame horse? :sadsmile:

Please, please, please don't take that the wrong way... I just seriously want to know - vet and trainer both tell me everything's okay but is that true... what are people's perceptions of a horse like ours? :sadsmile:


I just bought a horse with a bone spur. I was told by the seller that it supposedly never bothers him as long as you keep up with maintenance (which, for him is semi-special shoeing on a very strict schedule). Was it a deal breaker? No. But I did expect the price to be adjusted accordingly - it is an added risk. The last time he was sold (4 years ago) he was a low five-figure horse. Sometime in between then and now he was x-rayed for lameness, and the bone spur turned up. It was at that same time they'd let his feet go for 12 weeks - hence his discomfort. Whether the bone spur had been there all along or just in the past few years we'll never know, but we do know for certain that consistent shoeing is critical.

I purchased him for mid four figures, which I thought was fair. Not saying you need to lower your horse's price to that (from the sounds of it mine doesn't have near the amount of experience yours does anyway), just trying to give you some insight that no, it's not always a deal breaker, but the potential buyers may expect a little more leeway on the price. It has nothing to do with me not being able to provide for him - it's just that I know I will have to potentially invest more $$ to keep him sound down the road - so to me that calls for a cheaper sale price vs. a horse of the same caliber with a clean PPE.

Names Changed to Protect the Innocent
Apr. 20, 2009, 10:33 AM
trainer a... thank you for the feedback. I appreciate it. Where is his bone spur? Like your horse, we also don't know how long the bone spur has been there, only that it wasn't there 3 years prior when we did his PPE.

I'm curious... was your horse's asking price higher and you negotiated lower? Should he remain on the market, knowing our horse's maintenance routine and the fact that a bone spure is an added risk, I would be willing to do that, but I want to attract the right buyer in the first place, one like you that understands the necessity of it and is willing and can afford to do it.

trainer a
Apr. 20, 2009, 11:19 AM
trainer a... thank you for the feedback. I appreciate it. Where is his bone spur? Like your horse, we also don't know how long the bone spur has been there, only that it wasn't there 3 years prior when we did his PPE.

I'm curious... was your horse's asking price higher and you negotiated lower? Should he remain on the market, knowing our horse's maintenance routine and the fact that a bone spure is an added risk, I would be willing to do that, but I want to attract the right buyer in the first place, one like you that understands the necessity of it and is willing and can afford to do it.

My horse's spur is located on the fetlock. I negotiated about $1,000 off of his mid 4 figure price. I felt like his asking price already was fair considering the spur - I was just trying to recoup the shipping costs, as he was quite a hike from my farm. If he was still listed at his 5 figure price (aka before they knew about the spur) he'd have been out of my range (and even if I did try him, I would have definitely turned him down at that price when the PPE turned up the spur). So the way I look at it is I am getting a really nice horse at a great price - but I'm still taking the risk of the spur causing lameness/needing surgery/etc which is not a risk everyone is willing to take. Their loss my gain if he stays sound, my loss no ones gain if he goes downhill :)

There are definitely people out there like me who will take the risk of a horse with a bone spur, arthritis, what have you. I don't know if you have him listed anywhere or are just trying to sell him through your trainer/word of mouth - if you are going to sell - just be as honest as possible and let people know up front about it before they come to see the horse. For one thing that avoids potential heartbreak, secondly it gives the buyer a chance to do their own bone spur research before hand and figure out if it's something they want to deal with or not.

I'm in the boat with the other people on this board though, I'm all for leaving the horse's price where it is and letting DD continue to take it through the ranks.

Names Changed to Protect the Innocent
Apr. 20, 2009, 12:40 PM
trainer a... thank you for the information and advice and best wishes with your new horse. :)

findeight
Apr. 20, 2009, 02:19 PM
I bought a lowish mid 5 figure horse that turned up with an inoperable chip on the grinding surface of the coffin bone. Vet determined it was from recent trauma. Horse was well experienced and showed no effects all the way to 3'6" with moderate use over several weeks so he recommended purchase with reservation. Previous buyer backed out when the chip turned up.

Price was negotiated down by about 20%.

That one never took a bad step and is still going 9 years later BUT there was no guarantee and they wanted alot of money for that horse-and still got a fair sum. But not the asking price.

So, if something major turns up like this inoperable chip in a potentially bad place? It can be a negotiating point.

But when looking at older, well established show horses, not so much. The fact they are older and have demonstrated they can do the job a buyer is seeking trumps minor issues and "treadwear" is expected.

The problem with selling this one is he is not that well established, has not been jumping that high and is still relatively young. Cannot recall exactly what you said is wrong but, with horses like this? Relatively untested, youngish and unknown? Soundness questions can be a negotiating point at best, run a buyer off at worst with so many on the market better known and sounder.

magnolia73
Apr. 20, 2009, 02:37 PM
Either way, the bottom line is that your daughter needs more horsepower, and its up to you and your trainer (or another, more experienced one) working together to make it happen for her, while honoring the commitment to her present horses to provide for their best interests.


Well, no the kid does not actually need a new horse. It would be nice. But not necessary. If you feel that it is in your best interest to keep the hunter to prevent him from potential misuse, then don't sell him. There is nothing wrong with saying to your daughter and trainer "Make due with what you have". It's probably the better life lesson anyhow.

Maybe you could lease out the hunter, allowing her to take a lease on a jumper?

FWIW, I bought my horse knowing she had some hock issues that had caused her price to be dropped. My comment was that I liked her enough and in a couple of years if all she could do was toodle on trails, I'd be OK with that. I see her as a pet. I'd say she was priced at about 1/3 of what they could have gotten for her had she been clean on X-rays. They were upfront from the get go about the issue. She was quite green and most of the other inquiries that went beyond the email about the hocks were seeking a broodmare. But I really loved that horse from the get go and she was EXACTLY the type of horse I wanted. You could get lucky and have the perfect buyer show up.

I think you have to ask yourself- if you drop the price, what can you get for the price? There tend to be a lot of mythical horses out there that seem like a steal, but really weren't. Like the $5000 perfectly clean packer.... maybe a good buy, maybe age 20, maybe a bear to shoe, maybe needs a ton of turnout.....

unclewiggly
Apr. 20, 2009, 02:38 PM
It's hard to say without seeing photos/video and without knowing the market in your area, but IMO it sounds like this horse is overpriced. I have a horse that sounds a bit like yours but DOES jump round and DOESN'T have the soundness issues, and he's priced lower than yours - and guess what? Not sold yet, and we keep dropping the price lower and lower!

If your daughter is cool with not going into the jumper ring immediately, why not keep this horse as an Eq horse for her and set the goal of moving up to the 3'6" equitation? In the eq ring, it's an advantage if the horse jumps flat, and the big eq is great prep for a rider's future career in the jumpers.


I agree w/ above and am in same situation w/ a horse we have dropped 1/2 his price, he will vet, hack star, very pretty jump and is gorgeous. the $15K - $50K market seems very flat to not moving even when you drop the price.
I am selling like wildfire anything under $10K regardless of how green.
IMHO its going to be difficult to find a horse who will be competitive in teh huners/Eq who wil turn around and be a jumper. It takes a special horse to wear both hats well.

Bogie
Apr. 20, 2009, 02:40 PM
From my perspective I would keep the WB as your daughter's primary focus seems to be EQ.

Part of my concern in purchasing a horse with a bone spur would be whether or not he would stay sound in work. Keeping him, competing him, and getting him more of a show record would address those concerns provided he stayed sound.

Certainly it sounds as if this 8 year old could take DD at least up to the 3' or 3'3" level which is more than your 20 year old can support.

findeight
Apr. 20, 2009, 02:51 PM
I disagree you cannot take one to both Hunter or Eq/Jumper rings.

Carlos Boy just placed very well in the WEF Hunter Derby. He's a current Grand Prix Jumper.

He is the exception, not the rule at the elite level but for the garden variety local or regional level show or even smaller single A rateds? They can indeed do it and many do at the lower levels. Talking level 1 or 2 max here and 3' Hunters basically-if a GP horse can do it at the top levels, it certainly can be done lower down.