Treatment/Management for Under Run Heels??? [Archive]

grayarabs

Apr. 17, 2009, 05:23 PM

CamdenLab

Apr. 17, 2009, 05:43 PM

CL - is your horse currently shod or bare? Care to post photos? I am sure someone would be happy to draw lines on the photos and give you an idea where the toes/heels should be. I think bare is best because you can trim often and stay ahead of the growth.
My horse is bare and his hooves grow really fast. I walk or ride him on asphalt and two weeks after a trim he starts to wear back his toes and heels scraping on the asphalt.
He is not the most athletic of souls and apparently does not pick up his feet and/or drags his toes (and the road has an incline). Just curious - if your horse is presently bare and if you have access to a quiet asphalt street to handwalk him - I would do so and see what his hooves do/tell you.
Do the toes wear back a bit? Could you tell where his heels are making ground contact - ie how far back is the wear?

My original post that lead to this is here (http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=199830). And the link to pics from this morning are in Post #17.

My horse, a TB, is not all that comfy barfoot, I'm afraid. He is bare in the back. I do shoe him all around in the summer in case I want to trail ride and because I generally ride harder in summer months and he is quite ouchy for two weeks after pulling those back shoes. Right now, when I ride on the gravel road -- even though it's not that gravelly, but is hard -- he always chooses to walk on the grass. He's pretty flat-soled and I'm careful where I take him, even with shoes, as he will sometimes step just "right" and get a bruise on his sole.

Fantastic

Apr. 17, 2009, 06:12 PM

I briefly looked at your photos. Your horse has two very different angles going on, but both have long forward heels of different lengths. My question is why? There is no good reason. How old is the shoeing in the picture.

Hard to do with shoes but can be somewhat done. The long weak forward heels need to be cut back to where they should be towards the heel bulb. The shoe needs to be set back as far as healthily possible to increase the speed of the breakover this will also move the shoe back to give the heel some support. Right now the shoes are so darn forward (and possibly a size too small?) there is absolutely no heel support.

kcmel

Apr. 17, 2009, 06:12 PM

I'm with you on the flat tb feet; but if you can pull his shoes in the off-season (if you have one) and have a good farrier or trimmer work on his trim I think you will find that helps a lot. I never could get my tb over this problem until I pulled his shoes.

Fantastic

Apr. 17, 2009, 06:14 PM

I went back and looked again. The toe is also stretched forward so there is flair and dishing on both feed.

Nojacketrequired

Apr. 17, 2009, 06:15 PM

I asked about this on this thread...

[URL="http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?p=134757#post134757"[/URL]

on the farrier forum and about started WW3.

Lots of good info and pics of my mare's feet on there as well.

NJR

Fantastic

Apr. 17, 2009, 06:20 PM

OK. I looked for a 3rd time. Because of all the angle problems, long heels, long feet in general, forward under run heels, no heel support, etc., the heels are also contracted. Interestingly, the appear to be fair well balanced medial laterally.

CamdenLab

Apr. 17, 2009, 06:36 PM

How old is the shoeing in the picture.

April 24th (2009)

trottingfilly

Apr. 17, 2009, 06:50 PM

I'm sorry, didn't look at the pics and I'm sure I'll get shot for this ;) , but in standardbreds we would use what's called "flip-flops". A plastic pad with a shoe on the toe. It gives them nice cushion while letting the heels work naturally. I'm not sure how these would affect a riding horse's gait, we race with them on, but it's a great therapy shoe especially when barefoot is out of the question.

http://www.bigdweb.com/detail.aspx?id=25961

Just thought I'd share how us crazy harness racing folks do it! :D

BornToRide

Apr. 17, 2009, 08:01 PM

This subject has been discussed numerous times - do a search for under-run heels and you will see what has previously been written, tried, etc.
IMHO the best is barefoot with the most turn-out possible. Back up the toes and back up and probably lower the heels. Frequent trims/touch-ups.Could not agree more with this advise , but be sure not to take the heels down too much and it is usually better to address either one at any time, not both at the same time as it could be too much for the hoof to handle :)

I just looked at the photos - I am not impressed with this trim job - now I think the heels really do need to come down some, but photos can be somewhat misleading. the depth of the collateral grooves should be measured - it should be around 1 - 1.25 " at the heels and about 3/4 at the apex of the frog, when measured from the hoofwall plane. Those are general guidelines! If he has much less than that at the apex of the frog he most liekely has soles that are too thin and a Coffin bone that sits too low within the hoof capsule.

Heels are left too long on the RF
Quarters are left too long (note pushed up hairlines on sides)
Hard to tell but probable medio-lateral imbalance on the LF, his dominant hoof btwI also see other warning signs that might explain why your horse keeps being so flat footed and sore - regular ripples growing down the hoofwall. This is usually a sign to us barefoot trimmers that the hooves are affected metabolically which affects the tightness of the connective tissue (laminae) when it grows. This could either be because he's getting too many NSCs or not enough zinc and copper in his diet. I would look at that as well.

Soles are also often too thin because the farrier trims too much sole, so make that's not being done.

Tom Stovall

Apr. 17, 2009, 10:01 PM

BornToRide in gray

[Barefoot blather and usual dietary nonsense deleted]

Soles are also often too thin because the farrier trims too much sole, so make that's not being done.

Given that you have neither education nor experience from which to form a meaningful opinion, much less to judge any farrier's ability to provide hoof care, it follows you wouldn't know too much from too little exfoliating sole removal if it assaulted you in a most grievous manner.

OP, underrun heels are defined as those in which the strands of keratinized epithelial cells that form the wall (aka, "hoof fibers") grow medially (toward the frog) instead of laterally. There are damn few things writ on tablets of clay when it comes to horses' hooves, but this is one of them: New growth follows old! Thus, if the new growth at the heel is growing medially, it will never grow laterally unless all of the aberrant wall growth is removed.
Most often this cannot be done on a timely basis with a bare hoof as frog support beyond that which is provided by the horse's environment is often required, as well as some form of polymeric prosthesis to replace the excised wall.

Most often, chronic LTLH is a function of DNA and can't be "fixed" (permanently remediated), but it can often be maintained by various means, most of which are far beyond the capabilities of anyone not conversant with the correct trimming of individuals afflicted with LTLH, as well as the application of various mechanical devices and prosthetic materials.

For conformation, please see any standard veterinary text or take a look at the many associated threads at http://www.horseshoes.com.

LMH

Apr. 17, 2009, 10:11 PM

Most often, chronic LTLH is a function of DNA and can't be "fixed" (permanently remediated), but it can often be maintained by various means, most of which are far beyond the capabilities of anyone not conversant with the correct trimming of individuals afflicted with LTLH, as well as the application of various mechanical devices and prosthetic materials.

:confused:

Coulda fooled me.

irishcas

Apr. 17, 2009, 10:17 PM

BTR nonsense statements and some stuff you said Tom

Tom while I will give 100% support in regards to BTR's nonsensical statements I have to disagree with what you wrote... I think.

See, sometimes it is hard to follow your technospeak

So maybe I'm agreeing with you, maybe I'm not ;)

Underrun heels can be improved upon DRASTICALY and that, by bringing back toes.

So to the OP, ltlh can be much improved upon, with a physiologically correct trimming protocol

Good Luck

Kim Cassidy
NAF, AHA Member

ivy62

Apr. 17, 2009, 10:32 PM

My horse had serious long toe under run heels and thank god it was not DNA, good trimming and nutrition brought them back nicely.....

BornToRide

Apr. 17, 2009, 10:39 PM

The DNA card is way too overrated in many cases and and often used as an easy excuse for not being able to effectively address problem hooves. The latest "Myth and Truth" article in the Horse's Hoof illustrates this well also.

BoyleHeightsKid

Apr. 17, 2009, 11:21 PM

Julie...you need to find another farrier, a competent farrier. Those shoes are too small and Brig has absolutely no heel support whatsoever. Those shoes might actually fit him, if his foot wasn't run so far forward. Boy had similar feet.

He went from this:
http://s54.photobucket.com/albums/g115/boyleheightskid/Hoof%20pics%20%202006/?action=view&current=RightFront.jpg

to this:
http://s54.photobucket.com/albums/g115/boyleheightskid/Hoof%20pics%202009/?action=view&current=rightside.jpg

He may never be "perfect" but he's 300% better off than where he was. Once I found the right farrier, it took about a year to get him there. I wish I would have found him a long time ago, because I would rather poke hot needles in my eyes, than look at those old pictures of his feet. It amazes me how a horse can do his job with the feet some of these so called "farriers" put on them.

CamdenLab

Apr. 17, 2009, 11:42 PM

April 24th (2009)

I meant, March 24 2009. Forgot it was still April. ;)

CamdenLab

Apr. 17, 2009, 11:45 PM

This could either be because he's getting too many NSCs or not enough zinc and copper in his diet. I would look at that as well.

Soles are also often too thin because the farrier trims too much sole, so make that's not being done.

Unless it's from his hay, he's not getting too much NSCs. For the past year, no sugar, no oats, just beet pulp, rice bran, alfalfa and grass hay.

I don't think the farrier ever took anything from his sole.

CamdenLab

Apr. 17, 2009, 11:57 PM

I spoke with Farrier No 1 who had access to the pics.

He said that what he would do is trim the heels, the toe and put him in wedges and Natural Balance shoes. He also said that he would use larger shoes and use different sized shoes for each foot, if he had to. He felt that the farrier I use now is trying to make both feet the same.

He said he would do 4-5 week trims. I understand the importance of trimming his feet at these intervals, possibly forever, but his feet grow really slow and I asked the farrier how would he re-shoe him that often when he could not get new nail holes -- would he use glue. He said that glue in our wet climate rots the foot. And I'm in Oregon . . . pretty wet.

I'm also concerned with wedges. I've read over and over online that wedges will cause a crushed heel and often soreness issues. He does not use leather, but a bouncy synthetic material.

Farrier No 1 has been to Natural Balance school and it seems that he has a lot of continuing education experience under his belt, so he's keeping up with the times. I've been given a list of references that I may call this weekend.

I am going to call Farrier No 2 tomorrow. He does the BOs horses and she likes him a lot and thinks he does a good job. He also uses the Natural Balance method.

The vet is not coming this weekend, afterall, but will come on Thursday. I am going to ask for rads of his feet so we can see if anything is going on inside there and so that the farrier, whoever I choose, won't be flying blind.

BornToRide

Apr. 18, 2009, 12:36 AM

Unless it's from his hay, he's not getting too much NSCs. For the past year, no sugar, no oats, just beet pulp, rice bran, alfalfa and grass hay.

I don't think the farrier ever took anything from his sole.Alfalfa and rice bran can be a problem. Rice bran is high in NSCs and alfalfa can be high in starches.

I would not put him into any other shoes until the hooves had a chance to recover naturally with good trimming and become more balanced. you can use boots in the meantime . They have come such a long way with boot designs and are so easy to use now. Now need to glue anything on.

Ask yourself too - why would a farrier take the heels down and then elevate them again with wedges?? Why not leave them long to begin with?? Makes absolutely no logical sense to me.

LarkspurCO

Apr. 18, 2009, 12:40 AM

I'm also concerned with wedges. I've read over and over online that wedges will cause a crushed heel and often soreness issues.

Fear not the wedge! That is total BS. Applied correctly and for the right reason (to restore phalangeal alignment) it will help.

These alum wedges were applied to correct heel lameness due to underrun/crushed heels. He went sound and has remained sound ever since. He wore these 10 weeks and was reshod in wedge pads. Photo shows growth over nine weeks:

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i213/hfournier/Tanager/hooves/TanagerDec1-Feb1-09.jpg

BornToRide

Apr. 18, 2009, 12:51 AM

It is not total BS - they often cause more problems than they help. Enough for me to warrant NOT using them if I had a choice! Just by bringing this horse's heels down a bit more and trim the quarters more, this horse will already have much less under-run heels.

They look more forward partially because the quarters have not been trimmed correctly!

LarkspurCO

Apr. 18, 2009, 01:08 AM

It is not total BS - they often cause more problems than they help. Enough for me to warrant NOT using them if I had a choice!

Good thing you don't have a choice.

Just by bringing this horse's heels down a bit more and trim the quarters more, this horse will already have much less under-run heels.

Not sure which horse you are referring to, but until a hoof is trimmed you cannot assess whether the bony column is aligned and whether (or not) wedges would be appropriate.

LMH

Apr. 18, 2009, 06:41 AM

MANY horses tolerate alfalfa AND rice bran VERY well.

BoyleHeightsKid

Apr. 18, 2009, 09:57 AM

MANY horses tolerate alfalfa AND rice bran VERY well.

Agree 100%!! My TB is on alfalfa AND rice bran and he does just fine. As a matter of fact he is doing spectacular.

Julie, it sounds like you and Brig are on your way to getting him sorted out. Farrier #1 sounds like a good choice and if he's had NB training that's great!! (is he the NB farrier in Oregon City?) I used to live in Portland, so I know the area pretty well. I also agree, that you should not fear the wedge. When used in the right situation, with the right farrier, they are a great thing and will make Brig comfortable during the transition. You will notice a big difference in him and how he stands. He will be so much more comfortable!

grayarabpony

Apr. 18, 2009, 10:24 AM

:confused:

Coulda fooled me.

:lol::sadsmile:

In reality on Earth, chronic long toe low heel is often result of incompetent farriers who think they know it all. Are there horses with intrinsically bad feet? Sure. But there's a lot more horses with perfectly good feet that are being screwed up by bad trimming.

You know, I used to know and use good farriers. They must have all retired. But now, with the work I've seen from the dozen farriers working in the area, I would not hire another one.

Androcles

Apr. 18, 2009, 10:58 AM

Alfalfa and rice bran can be a problem. Rice bran is high in NSCs and alfalfa can be high in starches.

What is the NSC of rice bran? What alfalfa can be high in starchES. ?

Fantastic

Apr. 18, 2009, 11:02 AM

I vote don't use either farrier. Find someone new. Farrier #2 doesn't sound too skilled either:

He also said that he would use larger shoes and use different sized shoes for each foot, if he had to. He felt that the farrier I use now is trying to make both feet the same.

Come on! Horrible idea. There is very little size discrepancy between your horse's feet! So what, he puts two different sized shoes on your horse (which weigh different amounts, mind you), and then you have two very different speeds in breakover?

Wedges will assist in bringing the breakover point back, which is what you want, and will help get the pressure off those heels (also want this). HOWEVER, I don't know that I'd use a farrier that might want to use two different sized shoes, NB's, AND wedges. Regular keg shoes set back with wedges will do the job and be much more affordable.

BornToRide

Apr. 18, 2009, 11:06 AM

MANY horses tolerate alfalfa AND rice bran VERY well.
Yes, they do, but some do not and you will never know unless you tried without! You can only see the changes, if there are any, if you removed the feed for a while.

rcloisonne

Apr. 18, 2009, 11:10 AM

I am going to call Farrier No 2 tomorrow. He does the BOs horses and she likes him a lot and thinks he does a good job. He also uses the Natural Balance method.
Whomever shod your horse is most certainly NOT following NB trimming or shoeing principles. :no:

Whomever shod your horse is, to be blunt, incompetent. I don't use BO opinion as a gauge of farrier skill. You might want to consider doing the same. For your horse's sake. :yes:

Androcles

Apr. 18, 2009, 11:18 AM

My horse had serious long toe under run heels and thank god it was not DNA, good trimming and nutrition brought them back nicely.....

That's great to hear, because it can be quite hard to achieve! How long did it take and what kind of shoes did the farrier use, etc?

LarkspurCO

Apr. 18, 2009, 11:20 AM

Farrier #2 doesn't sound too skilled either:

:confused:

LarkspurCO

Apr. 18, 2009, 11:30 AM

What is the NSC of rice bran? What alfalfa can be high in starchES. ?

Rice bran is about 21% NSC so is not recommended for IR horses. Alfalfa averages 10% NSC. Alfalfa is the primary ingredient in Purina's low-starch feed.

Rick Burten

Apr. 18, 2009, 11:35 AM

Back up the toes and back up and probably lower the heels.
For the record, once cannot back-up the heels without also lowering them.

Rick Burten

Apr. 18, 2009, 11:42 AM

It is not total BS - they often cause more problems than they help.
Yes it is. And, as elsewhere noted, they cause no problems when correctly employed.
Enough for me to warrant NOT using them if I had a choice!
You always have a choice. That you don't take advantage of it, is, your choice. LOL
Just by bringing this horse's heels down a bit more and trim the quarters more, this horse will already have much less under-run heels.
Perhaps, perhaps not. But doing as you suggest will cause further mis-alignment of the phalanges which will exacerbate trauma to the DIPJ and other structures and tissues.
They look more forward partially because the quarters have not been trimmed correctly!
You haven't a clue. As in, you're both shoeless and clueless..

Rick Burten

Apr. 18, 2009, 11:43 AM

Whomever shod your horse is most certainly NOT following NB trimming or shoeing principles.
I absolutely agree.
Whomever shod your horse is, to be blunt, incompetent. I don't use BO opinion as a gauge of farrier skill. You might want to consider doing the same. For your horse's sake. :yes:
Well said. And, accurate.

Rick Burten

Apr. 18, 2009, 11:47 AM

In reality on Earth, chronic long toe low heel is often result of incompetent farriers who think they know it all.
Bullshyt(sic).
But there's a lot more horses with perfectly good feet that are being screwed up by bad trimming.
Especially by inductees into the Sweetness and Light Brigade of the BUAtista movement.
You know, I used to know and use good farriers. They must have all retired. But now, with the work I've seen from the dozen farriers working in the area, I would not hire another one.
Or is it that none of the farriers are willing to provide you with their services?

LMH

Apr. 18, 2009, 12:31 PM

Well actually I have seen a good many toes running like the wind from some recent barefoot trims...so the blame does not lie only with the boys club.:no:

If the environment/movement, etc is not enough, abrasive enough to wear things SOMEONE-a trimmer, farrier, abrasive rock MUST come in and whack back things that are not naturally wearing.

Getting toes and heels back is not rocket science-if it is well then I guess I am a rocket scientist.

It requires effort-bending over and nipping back what is overgrowing.

Fantastic

Apr. 18, 2009, 01:01 PM

Rick Burten:

What do you think about the op's farrier #2 considering puttiing different sized shoes on this horse? Pros and cons?

Camden lab wrote: He also said that he would use larger shoes and use different sized shoes for each foot, if he had to. He felt that the farrier I use now is trying to make both feet the same.

Androcles

Apr. 18, 2009, 01:08 PM

Well actually I have seen a good many toes running like the wind from some recent barefoot trims...so the blame does not lie only with the boys club.:no:

I have seen this lately too. Where are you located? Do you find this to be from following a particular guru's philosophy, a recent trend, some particular trimmers, or somethign else entirely?

CamdenLab

Apr. 18, 2009, 01:33 PM

Farrier #1 sounds like a good choice and if he's had NB training that's great!! (is he the NB farrier in Oregon City?)

Yes, that is the one. Do you know of him?

CamdenLab

Apr. 18, 2009, 01:38 PM

Whomever shod your horse is most certainly NOT following NB trimming or shoeing principles. :no:

Whomever shod your horse is, to be blunt, incompetent. I don't use BO opinion as a gauge of farrier skill. You might want to consider doing the same. For your horse's sake. :yes:

I never said my farrier used NB trimming or shoeing principles. I don't even know that he is aware of NB. He is not a good farrier, I see that now.

I wouldn't use the BO as a gauge of farrier skill. Just that she uses a farrier that has helped her mare with a suspensory injury and is approved of by her vet and friend, who is a widely known and respected vet, nationally. She's not the gospel, but she's a pretty smart and experienced woman, and a good start in regards to finding a good farrier for my horse.

Either way, for both farriers, I am collecting references from other people.

I may not be able to accurately gage the difference between a good shoeing job and a bad one and I find it unfortunate that I am unable to trust the "professionals" any longer -- the people I pay to know these things -- but I'm certainly not going to jump from the frying pan into the fire and choose a farrier blindly, based on what one person has said. I need to interview Farrier No. 2 and I need to speak with my vet.

To give me the guilt trip, "For your horse's sake.", as if I need to be told that my horse needs help, is counter-productive. I've been through the ringer with this horse over the past year and I've done everything I'm "supposed" to do in regards to horse-husbandry (plus some!) and still, I end up with this mess on my hands. I didn't choose this farrier because he's a good deal or up the street. I work my butt off, I pay out my nose, and I follow every single rule in regards to vet and farrier care.

Unfortunately, I'm no hoof pro. That's what I pay the farrier for. I'm also not a vet. That's what I pay the vet for. I'm not a trainer. That's what I pay my trainer for. But I'm finding that it doesn't make a difference. You have to know all this stuff PLUS you have to find and pay someone else to do it. But then, half of them do it wrong anyway.

Do I feel bad? Yes. I also feel bad that I paid the farrier $70+ every five weeks to come and ruin my horse. I feel bad that I had to leave work early each time I had an appointment so I could work around my incompetant farrier's schedule. I didn't leave my horse's feet undone and I didn't hire someone who had just graduated from the two-week farrier school up the road.

So, I'm doing the best I can with what I've got, which I'm finding out is basically crap. It's hard enough to do my job well so that I can pay all these idiots to work on my horse and hope they aren't destroying him, on top of studying up on what everyone else is supposed to be doing as well.

"For my horse's sake.", trust me, I've being doing a lot. It certainly has not been for my sake or my family's sake. Everything has been for his sake. The $2000 (my tax return, in other words) worth of Gastro Gard was for his sake. The chiropractor is for his sake as is the massage therapist. Working off board every morning at 5AM before my job so he can have the perfect home, is for his sake. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

So please, no need to give guilt trips. No need to tell me I'm an idiot. No need to make me look like a horrific person. As I said, I'm doing the best I can.

CamdenLab

Apr. 18, 2009, 01:47 PM

Rick Burten:

What do you think about the op's farrier #2 considering puttiing different sized shoes on this horse? Pros and cons?

Your information is incorrect. I haven't even spoken to Farrier No. 2. This was from Farrier No. 1.

Anyway . . . the basis was making the shoe fit the horse, not the horse fit the shoe, as my other farrier has been trying to do. Keep in mind, he hasn't seen the horse in person and his estimation was that there would a 1 size difference, if that.

It makes sense to me on a basic level. If the shoe doesn't fit, don't stuff the foot inside it. Right?

Rick Burten

Apr. 18, 2009, 01:48 PM

Rick Burten:

What do you think about the op's farrier #2 considering puttiing different sized shoes on this horse? Pros and cons?

Since not all feet are created equal, even pairs on the same horse, how much steel/aluminum/plastic/whatever is going to depend on the requirements of each individual foot, taking into account any supplemental orthotics(pads and the like) that may be necessary for any given foot.

In my custom, I usually use pairs of shoes that are the same size but there are some horses that are the exception. Which is a long about way of saying, "It Depends" :)

Pros and cons, hmmm. Using too large a shoe can create situations where the breakover is incorrect, the heels are too long and easily stepped on, the shoe is too wide for the foot, nail holes may be inappropriately located, etc. All of which can lead to gait irregularities, trauma, and injury. Using shoes that are too small has no advantages and a lot of disadvantages including more opportunity for nail quicks, bruising of the sole/heels, gait irregularities, lameness, trauma, injury.

Using different sized shoes on a pair of feet of a given horse would be done to maximize the horse's ability to perform comfortably and with soundness.

Let me also say that even when I use same size shoes, there are instances where, because of either overall conformation or particularly, hoof conformation, one of the shoes is modified more than the other to take into account said discrepancies. And, given a choice between a shoe that was a bit too big or a shoe that was a bit too small, I'm going to opt for the larger shoe.

BoyleHeightsKid

Apr. 18, 2009, 06:46 PM

Yes, that is the one. Do you know of him?

Don't know of him personally, but according to their website, he is NB Certified... I wish we had one of those in our area.

merrygoround

Apr. 18, 2009, 07:59 PM

When I listen to all of this, when my farrier turns up next Wed, I just may bring him a cup of coffee, and a pat on the back. I do pay every time he leaves, I suspect that and a clean and orgnized barn may be more importnat.

He is one of many I've used over the years, and I will cheerfully admit he is among the five best. Why so many? Cause I've moved or they've moved. Of course there are some who got replaced and never to come back. :)

Why the coffee and the pat. Because he went to school, studied with the best, did his home work, and knows downright well that you can't change nature, but you sure needn't make it worse. I've had my share of OTTB's, with underun heels, and pancake feet, and he or his predecessors backed up the toe, supports them with shoes, and they carry on.

Some youngsters we've shod because they were starting to under run their heels, one we may have caught, he may go barefoot more than one winter. We will watch him.

Put me in the barefoot for some club, the not looking for IR "under the bed" club. :D :lol::lol:

I've even had horses with different sized feet, and :eek:, my farriers put on different sized or shaped shoes. :lol: :lol:

ivy62

Apr. 18, 2009, 08:04 PM

Well, my horse had awful feet coming off the track. Long toe under run heels and brittle like a potato chip! I went barefoot for he would not hold a shoe and we were able to correct most of it in about 8 months... Then I had a farrier who basically took me back to were I started from!!!!!!! had to start all over and this time it took about 7 months again...BUT the additional thing is nutrition..I have change my horses feed regiment a few times but this time I think we got it right.. He flourishes on 2 lbs of rice bran per day and an organic holistic feed. His tail has grown like never brfore his coat is awesome and his feet are magnificent!!!
I had used Sigafoos shoes and loved them and we never had ANY problems with them or the hoof wall growing out...now we are in 2 steel shoes and barefoot behind...
Always see horses that the farrier has done for a while and look at the finished product and not one horse many as some horses have good feet and makes it easy to shoe then a pathological foot.....
Hope this helps

BornToRide

Apr. 18, 2009, 09:03 PM

I've even had horses with different sized feet, and :eek:, my farriers put on different sized or shaped shoes
They should! Anytime a hoof care professional is trying to match front hoof size, run quickly the other way with your horse.

It is common for horses to have differently shaped front hooves and is related to side dominance. The more uneven they are, the more uneven the horse is side to side, in other words the more one side is stronger (the dominant side) versus the other.

Do I feel bad? Yes. I also feel bad that I paid the farrier $70+ every five weeks to come and ruin my horse. I feel bad that I had to leave work early each time I had an appointment so I could work around my incompetant farrier's schedule. I didn't leave my horse's feet undone and I didn't hire someone who had just graduated from the two-week farrier school up the road.

So, I'm doing the best I can with what I've got, which I'm finding out is basically crap. It's hard enough to do my job well so that I can pay all these idiots to work on my horse and hope they aren't destroying him, on top of studying up on what everyone else is supposed to be doing as well.

Don't feel bad - those are just bumps in the road of life to learn from. Give yourself a pat on the back that you were actually observant enough to realize something was not right. It can only get better from here, because you are learning more. Knowledge is power ;)

Best wishes :)

Androcles

Apr. 18, 2009, 09:15 PM

Well, my horse had awful feet coming off the track. Long toe under run heels and brittle like a potato chip! I went barefoot for he would not hold a shoe and we were able to correct most of it in about 8 months... Then I had a farrier who basically took me back to were I started from!!!!!!! had to start all over and this time it took about 7 months again...

So - you went barefoot which corrected brittle feet (with nutrition) and underrun toes, sooo...you switched to shoes? :confused: Just trying to draw out how the correction for underrun heels is in here.

I had used Sigafoos shoes and loved them and we never had ANY problems with them or the hoof wall growing out...
so you never had any problems with them, so you switched to...

now we are in 2 steel shoes and barefoot behind...

? :confused:
The best of both worlds now?

How does nutrition help the direction the tubules grow in?

ivy62

Apr. 18, 2009, 09:19 PM

It took a long time to help his soles out so he got a wicked stone bruise that is why the Sigafoos and a hospital plate were added....Since then I have left front shoes on with leather pads no more bruises. The correction was the trim..not the shoe...our hoof story is very long and complicated. I have a booboo prone tb! If you are interested pm if you like....This has been an awesome learning curve for me! that is for sure....I could even show you pics of his feet, I think I still have them on the computer..it was a long time ago..but his feet looked like a shoe you would have found in Aladdin! slipper toed....
Nutrition doesn't help what direction it is quality....
we switched form Sigafoos because they cost about 450 dollars for 2 shoes!

Androcles

Apr. 18, 2009, 09:22 PM

Is the trimming you advocate pretty much what has been said here or something different? Did you find it easier/harder with shoes vs. barefoot or no difference? What about the nutrition aspect? How does that change the angle of growth?

BornToRide

Apr. 18, 2009, 09:36 PM

How does nutrition help the direction the tubules grow in?If nutrition is affecting the connective tissue (the laminae) by weakening it (making it loser), then the hoof will start to appear to grow more forward, pulling the heels forward with hit.

I personally think it is not so much growth but mechanical forces that push the hoofwall more away from the CB each time a horse takes a step, because the loser connective tissue is no longer able to withstand the resulting shearing forces when a horse steps on the heels.

Generally speaking though we see this affect more in horses with slightly thinner hoofwalls. Horses, like ponies for example with thicker hoofwalls, do not tend to show it quite as obvious and will generally have less dorsal hoofwall flaring and more upright growth, with less underrun heels.

See examples here: http://www.johnthevet.com/normal.php

merrygoround

Apr. 19, 2009, 09:25 AM

BTR _when you quote it is courtesy to attribute the quote, and it is also courtesy to quote the entire line, NOT just enough to support your point. Which, were the line correctly quoted, would have done so nicely without your help, the icons and the end of the sentence were part of the context of the thought.

kcmel

Apr. 19, 2009, 09:32 AM

we switched form Sigafoos because they cost about 450 dollars for 2 shoes!

:lol:That was going to be my guess!

Auventera Two

Apr. 19, 2009, 09:46 AM

MANY horses tolerate alfalfa AND rice bran VERY well.

Yes, what LMH said. Alfalfa is lower in NSC than most grass hays and a lot of horses tolerate it much better than grass hays. One of my own horses being a classic example.

Rick Burten

Apr. 19, 2009, 10:02 AM

Anytime a hoof care professional is trying to match front hoof size, run quickly the other way with your horse.
Utter nonsense. When will you learn that there are very few absolutes along the hoof care continuum?
It is common for horses to have differently shaped front hooves and is related to side dominance.
Differently shaped hoofs does not equate to different sized hooves. How about hind hooves? Are they ever different shapes or sizes? Should a person run quickly the other way from a hoof care profession whoi is trying to match those feet up too? Or is it just front feet that fit your paradigm?

Further, hoof shape is not always or necessarily related to, influenced by, or a by-product of side dominance. To assert otherwise[as you routinely do] is not only disingenuous by downright stupid and speaks to a lack of knowledge and understanding of anatomy, pathology,
Knowledge is power
And your lack thereof, eminently evident.

Rick Burten

Apr. 19, 2009, 10:14 AM

I personally think it is not so much growth but mechanical forces that push the hoofwall more away from the CB each time a horse takes a step, because the loser connective tissue is no longer able to withstand the resulting shearing forces when a horse steps on the heels.
What shearing forces are present at the toe when the horse steps on the heels?
Generally speaking though we see this affect more in horses with slightly thinner hoofwalls.
How many horses have you personally seen exhibit this phenomenon and how do you ascertain the actual cause(s)?

irishcas

Apr. 19, 2009, 10:29 AM

How many horses have you personally seen exhibit this phenomenon and how do you ascertain the actual cause(s)?

Come on Rick, don't you know.. It's a natural Born gift, To Be Right all the time, on every subject ;)

Kim Cassidy
NAF, AHA Member

Rick Burten

Apr. 19, 2009, 10:57 AM

Come on Rick, don't you know.. It's a natural Born gift, To Be Right all the time, on every subject ;)

Kim Cassidy
NAF, AHA Member
Does this mean that you are Born with The Right To Be Stupid or is that a privilege you garner later in life after you Ride or have been Ridden hard and put away wet one too many times?

checkwriter

Apr. 20, 2009, 08:47 AM

I'm curious. Has anyone mentioned x-raying the foot to determine the position of the coffin bone. Wouldn't this information be helpful for deciding how to proceed?

LarissaL

Apr. 20, 2009, 11:37 AM

Unfortunately, I'm no hoof pro. That's what I pay the farrier for. I'm also not a vet. That's what I pay the vet for. I'm not a trainer. That's what I pay my trainer for. But I'm finding that it doesn't make a difference. You have to know all this stuff PLUS you have to find and pay someone else to do it. But then, half of them do it wrong anyway.

From someone who's been there - it's a frustrating experience. The more you learn, the more you realize you didn't know. It's an ongoing process even after you find the right professionals to help you.

I've found that continuing education isn't just for the professionals. Not that my sort of "education" is anywhere near the level of theirs.. just that I try to learn a little something relevant every day. My horses are super helpful with that :lol: In the past year, I've had to deal with laminitis, feed changes, a presumed metabolic condition/anabolic steroid withdrawl, ulcers, etc. It's been an expensive and, many times, somewhat exhausting year.

I think one way to feel confident that you've found the right people to work with is that they treat your horse as an individual and are willing to reevaluate and tweak their system for him. The folks I work with (who I L O V E) are constantly evaluating where we are with my horses and finding little things to improve on. Every time my farrier pulls shoes off my horse, he tells me what types of wear he sees on the shoe, any changes in my horse's hoof growth patterns, any one time incidents he can see (trauma to the sole or the hoof wall, etc) and he talks me through what he wants to do differently this time around and why. We stick to a five week cycle and I would be paying nearly twice what you do per cycle for front (I shoe all around), but it's so worth it. The woman I have taking care of my problem horse (90% of the problems listed above) does the same with his hoofcare and his diet. She always lets me know what she wants to try with his feed and supplements based on his behavior and condition and she notes the tiny changes she can see in his feet (both their condition, his posture and his comfort). I trust both of them implicitly because it's obvious they are looking at my horses for what they are and constantly trying to improve their situations.

I really hope you're able to find some great people through recommendations and make some changes for your guy. Sounds like he is ready for it!

Also, if you haven't bought your full course of Ulcergard yet, you might consider shopping around. I did my full 28 days at $700 or so.. entirelypets has 6 packs at $190 and the code EPET15495Z gets you 15% off that, plus free shipping. It saved me ooooooodles of money. Good luck!

Auventera Two

Apr. 20, 2009, 12:32 PM

Also, if you haven't bought your full course of Ulcergard yet, you might consider shopping around. I did my full 28 days at $700 or so.. entirelypets has 6 packs at $190 and the code EPET15495Z gets you 15% off that, plus free shipping. It saved me ooooooodles of money. Good luck!

You can also buy it from www.discountpetdrugs.com (http://www.discountpetdrugs.com). It is $29 a tube, plus free shipping. :) With your 15% off deal though, that's a better price at about 26 a tube!! Thanks for the tip. :cool:

CamdenLab

Apr. 20, 2009, 01:45 PM

I'm curious. Has anyone mentioned x-raying the foot to determine the position of the coffin bone. Wouldn't this information be helpful for deciding how to proceed?

I am having this done later this week and Farrier No. 1 did recommend it. Can't remember if anyone on this thread mentioned it. But, this is what I'm doing, followed-up by my vet's recommendation, then talk to farrier(s) again.

saratoga

Apr. 20, 2009, 04:15 PM

My 19 year old Tb. has had underrun heels forever. I think it is basically "managed" by a farrier who does a good trim (doesnt leave the toes too long) and then have the shoes re-set quite often, about every 5 weeks. A few years ago, I got frustrated and had his shoes removed and did the barefoot thing for a year but he was never comfortable even with boots and pads and I gave up and had him shod again. His foot was starting to look better barefoot but his comfort level was not increasing. I had x-rays done before I put shoes back on and the vet said his soles were extremely thin, which often goes along with this type of foot, and that his coffin bone was dropped.
I am glad I had his shoes put back on. Right now he has NB shoes with pads and is doing great. I think the farrier I have now is doing a good job, as good as my horse's feet can look. He is sound and happy so I just have to not worry about it! I think if I had a young horse with feet like this I would try barefoot again, but with the oldsters, its tough.

Androcles

Apr. 20, 2009, 07:31 PM

BTR I would like to also know the answers to the questions Rick Burten poses. I see you have not done so to this point. What about those shearing forces at the toe and how does this create an underrun heel? And by 'loser' I presume you mean 'looser' though I find it hard to imagine a 'loose' laminae and not really sure what you mean by that. And what do you mean by 'nutrition'? Am I supposed to open a bag of 'nutrition' and feed that to my horse? Your original answers are vague and non-specific and therefore not helpful; I don't know what information the OP can take from it to solve her problem. If you have any interest in helping, can you please address the questions.

What shearing forces are present at the toe when the horse steps on the heels?

How many horses have you personally seen exhibit this phenomenon and how do you ascertain the actual cause(s)?

If nutrition is affecting the connective tissue (the laminae) by weakening it (making it loser), then the hoof will start to appear to grow more forward, pulling the heels forward with hit.

I personally think it is not so much growth but mechanical forces that push the hoofwall more away from the CB each time a horse takes a step, because the loser connective tissue is no longer able to withstand the resulting shearing forces when a horse steps on the heels.

Generally speaking though we see this affect more in horses with slightly thinner hoofwalls. Horses, like ponies for example with thicker hoofwalls, do not tend to show it quite as obvious and will generally have less dorsal hoofwall flaring and more upright growth, with less underrun heels.

See examples here: http://www.johnthevet.com/normal.php