Future of Dressage?

[eesterson]

Cothers:

As I'm watching the world cup, I'm curious what your thoughts are on this questions: What is the future of dressage in the US?

Please feel free to riff on any of these topics:
Growing the popularity of the sport with youth
Growing the popularity overall-education of the American sports-viewing public

How do we sustain dressage in America's outback, where good trainers are few and far between?

Do we need to import more Europeans? How do we make sure our trainers are up to snuff?

Please feel free to add your own ideas!:

[Fandango7]

I will comment on growing the popularity of the sport with youth based on my own experience.

I was lucky enough to be able to participate in the NAYR program and thought it was an amazing opportunity and recommend it to anyone interested. However, I feel like there is a resentment between alot of Adult Amateurs toward YRs and I am not sure why. I saw it first-hand in my local GMO where scholarships and camps were offered for AAs only and when I asked why they were not open to YRs, the answer was always something to the effect that we were already given more attention by USDF than AAs were and that AA are what keep the sport alive.

I don't disagree that the majority of the sport is made up of AAs but why the resentment toward YRs? I think alot of it has to do with the fact that to compete (successfully) in the YR tests, you need a well-trained and talented horses and "usually" these horses are bought ready to go compete at the FEI level. I got alot of the "spoiled rich kid" attitude from alot of the AAs in our GMO which is a total crock because I didn't pay a dime for my horse and when I got him he was practically ruined by a rider with very rough hands.

I think if anything, we need to be as friendly and welcoming to Juniors and YRs as we can as they are the future of the sport. The program also turns out many successful riders who go pro and provide an invaluable resource to AA. JMO

[siegi b.]

I do think that the American future of dressage rests with the young/junior riders and those are the ones we should support.

Just seeing Ashlyn de Groot (at the time she was 14 years young) ride Idocus (19 years) at I2 was an eye opener for me. Talk about maturity of riding skills! Ashlyn will make most pro riders look bad! And I know there are more kids like her that didn't have things handed to them while growing up around horses.

There are pockets of great young riders and that's who needs to have the best trainers available. I'm not talking about kids who have everything handed to them on a silver platter but rather the ones that start out with not so good horses and prove themselves and then graduate to better and better horses under the tutelage of a trainer of Willy Arts' caliber.

That's who I'm willing to support....

[hammondcrazy@yahoo.com]

However, I feel like there is a resentment between alot of Adult Amateurs toward YRs and I am not sure why.

I know exactly why. Adults are ignored for the most part. The whole horseworld in this country focuses on YRs and forget about the adults. All you hear about is YR YR YR. Agreed they are the future but what about the adult amateurs? What about now?? the future isn't here yet I don't worry about the future it isn't here. We need to support the AA riders as much as the YRs then there would e a lot less resentments My boss who worked her butt off training anything she could get her hands on hated YRs because she wasn't handed a free FEI horse and lessons because she was young and cute. In this society it is a package deal got to have the "look" I personally don't resent them at all there is plenty of room in this business for all of us. One nasty poster on my vent string told me why would someone want you when George Williams was released? my answer is because he can only ride one horse at a time at one barn at a time. There is no magazine for the adult amateur but there is a young rider magazine. I think that this society is so young oriented that everything else is pretty much forgotten. Not just in horses, also in music. It was so so wonderful for the first time a 47 year old frumpy made fun of woman put Simon in his place on Britain has talent ,you see all the young people make fun of her till she sang that first note. Like to see that in this business.

[eesterson]

Considering the demographics of the sport--have a look around Las Vegas, if you're there--it seems like bolstering both the youth AND the AAs would be an important element. How would you do it? How would you like to see the sport support AAs? More shows? Clinics? Freestyle competitions at the lower levels (they are doing this in the UK and I've heard it's popular--just freestyles, no tests).

How about having fancy clinicians do clinics with teh AAs? Would people participate? I know in my region, we have clinicians who come but it's the same upper level pro riders time and again that get "chosen" to ride.

[hammondcrazy@yahoo.com]

Considering the demographics of the sport--have a look around Las Vegas, if you're there--it seems like bolstering both the youth AND the AAs would be an important element. How would you do it? How would you like to see the sport support AAs? More shows? Clinics? Freestyle competitions at the lower levels (they are doing this in the UK and I've heard it's popular--just freestyles, no tests).

How about having fancy clinicians do clinics with teh AAs? Would people participate? I know in my region, we have clinicians who come but it's the same upper level pro riders time and again that get "chosen" to ride.

I would love to see the attention given to the YRs shared with the AA make it feel that they are as much important as the YRs. Make them feel good that they are adult amateurs. Certainly have clinics for AAs Choose a no name instead of a pro rider. I am an accomplished musician and I don't make a living at it. but I am accomplished. There are plenty of AAs that can ride as good as the pros and YRs They unfortunatly need that damn day job that always seem to get in the way. I would love to find a barn that caters to the AAs also I think that someone that is in their 30s 40s are "young riders" the age cutoff is to low. Also despite my little rant and frustration and vent. I screwed up and am licking my wounds but I will make it. I think tolerance to each other more would help. The YRs are the future and I support them, but it would make it more palatable if more attention was also given to the AAs and I like the UK way of going as well Mike

[ToN Farm]

Young people are the future of everything. In dressage there are
young riders and there are YOUNG RIDERS, the later being that special group of young people that have the financial backing to have one or more competitive FEI horses, board with a BNT, go all over the country or to Europe, etc. etc. Is this the group you want to support? If so, why bother as they can already easily support themselves and their training.

[Fandango7]

I think AAs are the dominating force behind GMOs and also there are numerous new scholarships for AA through both the Dressage Foundation and USDF. There are tons of terrific AA riders and they deserve these things.

I don't see any reason to resent young people who have wealthy families who support their dressage ambitions. I doubt anyone of us would turn that down if we had that kind of support. :)

[hammondcrazy@yahoo.com]

Young people are the future of everything. In dressage there are
young riders and there are YOUNG RIDERS, the later being that special group of young people that have the financial backing to have one or more competitive FEI horses, board with a BNT, go all over the country or to Europe, etc. etc. Is this the group you want to support? If so, why bother as they can already easily support themselves and their training.

Exactly But AAs are our present and they need to be sponsored as well. Let's face it someone that is say 50 and they ride till 70 or 75 or teach like WAZ who is 80 You can see that they have up to 30 years ahead and that is a lot of future. I am in my 30s and I have longevity in my family,, So I have a potential of 40 to 50 years yet. Remember no matter what age you are 12 or 120 tomorrow is promised to no one.We need to support everybody Mike.

[Fandango7]

AAs are not sponsored. That would disqualify them from being an AA.

[dressurpferd01]

Young people are the future of everything. In dressage there are
young riders and there are YOUNG RIDERS, the later being that special group of young people that have the financial backing to have one or more competitive FEI horses, board with a BNT, go all over the country or to Europe, etc. etc. Is this the group you want to support? If so, why bother as they can already easily support themselves and their training.

Once again, ToN and I agree. The "YR's" that most refer to are the ones who are competitive at the NAYRC level. The ones who 9.9 times out of 10 do NOT need financial aid from USDF. I can totally understand AA's frustration/resentment of YR's even though I'm barely older than the YR's. And no, I never did YR's, aged out 2 yrs after I discovered dressage and never would have had the money.

I would personally love to see the USDF focus a bit more on the AA's and have them get some of the educational opportunities that the YR's get in terms of training.

[Fandango7]

The "YR's" that most refer to are the ones who are competitive at the NAYRC level. The ones who 9.9 times out of 10 do NOT need financial aid from USDF.

I would be the .1 percent then. I qualified for our Region 3 team in 2005 and unfortunately after my horse had an old suspensory injury flare up, was declared an alternate and did not get to compete. There is always an exception to every assumption.

[Fandango7]

As far as "where I see the future of dressage," I believe that the ever increasing fees that one must now pay on a yearly basis in order to show in recognized competitions is killing alot of participation. It costs as much to renew memberships every year as it does to pay for a show. I also think that if they do put a "qualifying system" in place, that it will devastate the showing population. While I can see the purpose of said system, I don't believe it is a way to encourage people to show and I think judges should give bad rides bad scores and if the rider doesn't get the hint, that is their problem.

[slc2]

No one said you couldn't get a job because George williams got released.

Some people are always looking for someone to resent. I don't begrudge the YR a thing. They will work their tails off, just like everyone else, whether they get to ride a nice horse or not.

And for those who fool themselves into thinking having a 'nice horse' makes things easy - think again. It makes things far, far harder.

[hammondcrazy@yahoo.com]

I would be the .1 percent then. I qualified for our Region 3 team in 2005 and unfortunately after my horse had an old suspensory injury flare up, was declared an alternate and did not get to compete. There is always an exception to every assumption.

That breaks my heart. When I was in junior high I had classmate I hated and well made my life miserable. He shot a horse that belonged to a kid our age in the shoulder and had to be put down and the kid lost his chance. I am not a YR and I don't harbour any resentments to JRs YRs at all. And some of them get screwed as well as the rest of us. I just want to see all of us make it and be appreciated for whatever we bring to this world. whether we are 8 or 80 we are worth something. rather see kids ride then snort something up their nose

[Fandango7]

It was disappointing, however, not the end of the world. I had alot of great support from friends, my family, and alot of people I didn't know who came up to me and were incredibly supportive. Most of us weren't handed horses because we are "young and cute". In my experience in YRs, especially at the Advanced YR clinics, the kids who could really ride were incredibly far ahead from the ones who couldn't but had nice horses. They also, coincidently, were usually the ones that tacked up their own horses and cleaned their own stalls.

I had Lisa Wilcox tell me at a YR clinic that "my groom had put my curb chain on with a kink in it". :eek: I looked at her and burst out laughing at the thought of me having a groom. She looked at me like I was nuts! :lol:

[NJRider]

I am an AA rider and I think it is up to YOU to take the initiative to achieve your goals, not expect "support" from an organization or group. AA or not, serious riders do this. I live in an area where there is no instruction or quality, I formulated my own game plan for myself and my horse. From what I have witnessed, most AA riders are not serious, many are afraid to canter and dream of training level at the most. This does not hurt anything but how does this help the growth of dressage? You have the age old argument, is this just basic riding 101 or "dressage"?

[Fandango7]

I am an AA rider and I think it is up to YOU to take the initiative to achieve your goals, not expect "support" from an organization or group.

Amen to that. ;)

[hammondcrazy@yahoo.com]

No one said you couldn't get a job because George williams got released.

Some people are always looking for someone to resent. I don't begrudge the YR a thing. They will work their tails off, just like everyone else, whether they get to ride a nice horse or not.

And for those who fool themselves into thinking having a 'nice horse' makes things easy - think again. It makes things far, far harder.

I think George Williams is awesome and I like him very much. I only resent folks that have nothing but nasty things to say. I resent people that are selfish and don't care about anyone else. I think YRs are a great source for our future, But adult riders also are viable and needed. As I said people in the 30s 40s are still young and lots of life ahead and lots to still offer. I agree that riding an FEI horse and you don't know how to ride, you can mess up big time. Just like someone getting inside an F16 never flown before, well they would be in big trouble if they attempted to fly it. So I agree

[mvp]

Sometimes I think the Dressage world is 20 years behind the H/J world and that's too bad, but not for the reason you might think!

The H/J world long ago "industrialized." That meant separating trainers from riders. It also meant that becoming a BNT involved an early (and bankrolled, or kid-of-trainer) start.

At the same time, say '80s and '90s, dressage was refreshing because it seemed that every horse was scored against himself. You could ride your POA/Appy cross and be competitive alongside a purpose-bred dressage horse... and also find OTTBs and others at the same show. You also did your own training, with instruction coming from clinicians who made the rounds a few times a year.

I haven't paid close attention in awhile, but the expectation now seems to be that everyone has a trainer. I have to say, that makes no sense to me for a sport that's so much about communication between one horse and one rider.

In any case, the only reason not to pour support into the YR world is that 1) It is true that most YRs who are competitive enough are usually well-backed enough that the small scholarships don't seem significant. Perhaps the money would go further in different hands. 2) It encourages the very rapid training of riders. Perhaps that's good, but also perhaps bad because many, many more aspiring trainers leave the industry too soon because they recognize that they can't compete with the superbly-mounted kid, no matter how well they ride or might train later. Most of us won't be trained by those who reap the benefits of the YR world.

[poltroon]

CDS has some amateur programs and it's nice to see that.

Something that is worth noting is that dressage is very much a long term sport, and it's actually really unusual for our professionals to go the young rider route. Far more of our professionals competed as juniors in a different discipline, and many competed as amateurs before turning pro. Dressage values maturity and honestly, today, it is equally likely that a talented amateur is the future of our sport, or even a future international contender, as a talented junior.

One of the problems for dressage as a sport for kids is that it is fairly solitary. Kids get excited about horses not just because of the horses, but because of the other kids who also like horses. Creating critical masses of kids is the only way that we can create a substantial junior division. Eventing is often our gateway.

A large barrier to training is that few people have access to good schoolmasters. A great way to really ramp up training would be to set up a training center, with some top trainers and some quality, trained schoolmasters, set up for stays of a week or more. That is where I'd send those talented young riders - to 'camp' at such a place for the summer. Adults too.

[ToN Farm]

I don't begrudge the YR a thing. They will work their tails off, just like everyone else, whether they get to ride a nice horse or not.

And for those who fool themselves into thinking having a 'nice horse' makes things easy - think again. It makes things far, far harder. Bullsh*t SLC. Some young riders (and older riders) work their tails off, and some do not. Just how many BNT barns have you actually boarded at and seen the young riders in action?

Having a 'nice horse' DOES make things easier. How would you know unless YOU have a nice horse. Do you? It is far easier to ride a well conformed, good moving horse. Sure, maybe some old, stiff schoolmaster is hard to ride for a clueless novice, but in general, nice horses are easier to ride.

These YR's and Trainers that have never ridden sub-standard horses often do not know how to deal with their issues. They don't even want to work with such a horse. That is why people send horses off to cowboys or some little name trainer that has the desire to work with problem horses.

The only way one becomes really skilled in training (imo) is to spend years and years riding all kinds of horses.

[magickmeadow]

IMO the opportunities available for the AA are disproportionate to the opportunities afforded the YR. Advertisements offering schoolmasters often note that they are available for the YR. Why not the AA as well? I have seen discounts offered on sale horses for the YR. Why not the AA? AA camps are in short supply. Special training opportunities for YR's with BNT's abound. I don't begrudge the YR anything; however, it would certainly be nice to see more emphasis and opportunities for the AA. There are very talented riders in both sectors. IMO the AA is the reason that dressage will continue because the money is ours not Mom's or Dad's. AA's are just as much the future of dressage as the YR. Give us what we deserve.

[CatOnLap]

What is the future of our sport?

It is important to have a large enough body of dressage riders who are enthusiasts that will pay money to go watch the big competitions that we cannot afford to ride in, to laud the wealthy pro riders at the top with the 6 figure horses that we will never own, and to applaud those people starting out who might have the resources to make it that far, where the vast majority of us will never progress to.

Those would be the most important people in our sport, the adult amateurs.

It is important to treat those average adults like the very special people they are. Hard working, dedicated, often holding full time jobs and raising families and fitting their horses in where they can on what's left of their budget. AA's DO work their butts off.

Young Riders? Not so much. I don't resent them, but I don't see why they should be given special consideration over the huge advantages they already have. Firstly, I never met one whose parents did not make more money than I do-a lot more money. Poor kids can not do this sport seriously at a young age. YR's do have to work hard at their sport, but that is not the same as also working for a living. YRs are eligible for thousands of dollars in scholarships every year, including free or low cost entry to many clinics and rides on high dollar FEI horses if they cannot afford their own.
I checked the biographies of our current olympic "short list".
Of seven riders, all are professional riders.
All come from wealthy backgrounds. About half are from established horsey families.
Most had enough money that they and their horses have had the money to fly over and train in Europe at fairly young ages (like, in my dreams....)
Only one was ever a Young Rider.

I don't see YR's as the future of our sport.

We tracked the performance of young riders since 1989 in our area, that were sponsored in a variety of ways by local clubs. We were always hopeful that by supporting them in this way, they would return the good will by staying in the community and teaching or offering to give clinics for the clubs who had sponsored them or even just by staying in riding long enough that we could bask in their reflected glory for a moment.

While there is always the exceptional young person somewhere who bought a horse at a meat auction and trained him to FEI by shovelling manure for lessons and remains in the sport as an adult giving their all...(there are none of those here)...

Our results varied considerably. Of the dozen or more YR's sponsored by our local clubs, none have remained in our community. More than 1/2 have given up riding altogether in favour of raising their own families, or pursuing more lucrative careers and university. I don't blame them. The whims of teens and young adults change and they should be free to live their lives. Those that remained as riders have gone off to other places in the world and have not returned. So yeah, if you want to have a pet YR, go ahead and support them for the sheer joy of watching a rich, talented young athlete perform, but don't pretend you're trying to grow the sport and please don't take my hard earned club membership dollars to further sweeten the millionaire's pot. I already support many youth organizations that do not cater to the wealthy, such as the Guides, the Boys and Girls Clubs and the Scouts.

Meanwhile, the adult ammies who supported YR's all those years continue to remain in the community, continue to organize the shows and the clubs and to donate prize money and basically pay the bills. And are still involved 20 years later, still doing their AA thing.

[InsideLeg2OutsideRein]

From what I have witnessed, most AA riders are not serious, many are afraid to canter and dream of training level at the most.

oy vey. Where did you get those stats? This might be more reflective of your location (you mention not much good training available) than the state of the AA world. Here in Northern CA we've got a whole bunch of kick-a$$ AAs, many of whom reached FEI, or have their (realistic) sights set on getting their eventually.

[lewin]

I almost think it should be a "New Professional" rider program. That the funding should go to riders who have already handed out their professional shingle and declared that they wanted to spend their lives in horses. Programs to inporve the training base in this country would do the most widespread good to the future of dressage. And then there could be a stipulation for the scholarship that you give some discounted lessons in your area to AA's or Young Riders.

[NJRider]

oy vey. Where did you get those stats? This might be more reflective of your location (you mention not much good training available) than the state of the AA world. Here in Northern CA we've got a whole bunch of kick-a$$ AAs, many of whom reached FEI, or have their (realistic) sights set on getting their eventually.

I am in the midwest. Your AA riders in CA could come here and be very successful instructors and clinicians. My stats come from observation, what is typical you see in a show or clinic. Anyone who can sit the trot or do a leg yield is considered "upper level".

[Fandango7]

YRs are eligible for thousands of dollars in scholarships every year, including free or low cost entry to many clinics

Umm. . . do you know what a ride in the Advanced YR clinics costs? Free or low cost entries into many clinics? with who?

There are also thousands of dollars of scholarships offered to AA every year but the pool is much bigger to draw from so they are harder to obtain.

[Tamsin]

What is the future of our sport?

It is important to have a large enough body of dressage riders who are enthusiasts that will pay money to go watch the big competitions that we cannot afford to ride in, to laud the wealthy pro riders at the top with the 6 figure horses that we will never own, and to applaud those people starting out who might have the resources to make it that far, where the vast majority of us will never progress to.

Those would be the most important people in our sport, the adult amateurs.

It is important to treat those average adults like the very special people they are. Hard working, dedicated, often holding full time jobs and raising families and fitting their horses in where they can on what's left of their budget. AA's DO work their butts off.

Young Riders? Not so much. I don't resent them, but I don't see why they should be given special consideration over the huge advantages they already have. Firstly, I never met one whose parents did not make more money than I do-a lot more money. Poor kids can not do this sport seriously at a young age. YR's do have to work hard at their sport, but that is not the same as also working for a living. YRs are eligible for thousands of dollars in scholarships every year, including free or low cost entry to many clinics and rides on high dollar FEI horses if they cannot afford their own.
I checked the biographies of our current olympic "short list".
Of seven riders, all are professional riders.
All come from wealthy backgrounds. About half are from established horsey families.
Most had enough money that they and their horses have had the money to fly over and train in Europe at fairly young ages (like, in my dreams....)
Only one was ever a Young Rider.

I don't see YR's as the future of our sport.

We tracked the performance of young riders since 1989 in our area, that were sponsored in a variety of ways by local clubs. We were always hopeful that by supporting them in this way, they would return the good will by staying in the community and teaching or offering to give clinics for the clubs who had sponsored them or even just by staying in riding long enough that we could bask in their reflected glory for a moment.

While there is always the exceptional young person somewhere who bought a horse at a meat auction and trained him to FEI by shovelling manure for lessons and remains in the sport as an adult giving their all...(there are none of those here)...

Our results varied considerably. Of the dozen or more YR's sponsored by our local clubs, none have remained in our community. More than 1/2 have given up riding altogether in favour of raising their own families, or pursuing more lucrative careers and university. I don't blame them. The whims of teens and young adults change and they should be free to live their lives. Those that remained as riders have gone off to other places in the world and have not returned. So yeah, if you want to have a pet YR, go ahead and support them for the sheer joy of watching a rich, talented young athlete perform, but don't pretend you're trying to grow the sport and please don't take my hard earned club membership dollars to further sweeten the millionaire's pot. I already support many youth organizations that do not cater to the wealthy, such as the Guides, the Boys and Girls Clubs and the Scouts.

Meanwhile, the adult ammies who supported YR's all those years continue to remain in the community, continue to organize the shows and the clubs and to donate prize money and basically pay the bills. And are still involved 20 years later, still doing their AA thing.

Excellent post. I agree that, if scholarships or other special training opportunities are offered, they should be directed at adults who have committed to being professional riders/trainers. In all riding disciplines, many competitive teens stop riding when they enter college or shortly after. They are burned out or simply discover other interests and passions. It's also true that most competitive teens don't really need financial help because they come from very wealthy, often horsey backgrounds. If they didn't, how would they initially get the necessary horses, training, and competition experience to be noticed as a YR?

[Fandango7]

Is there also not a direct correlation to the socieconomic status of 'winning' AAs? There are plenty of just as wealthy AAs and from my showing experience, they are the ones winning the AA classes at the big shows. Let's face it, dressage is not a cheap sport and to be showing and winning at large recognized shows, you have to have the ability to pay.

[hammondcrazy@yahoo.com]

Let's face it, dressage is not a cheap sport and to be showing and winning at large recognized shows, you have to have the ability to pay.[/QUOTE]

That is the main reason it will not become popular as most want it to be. IN this economy especially.
I would like to see a franchise type deal where anyone can learn and ride Dressage at a reasonable cost. I know it wouldn't happen but it would bring Dressage to the masses.

[eesterson]

That, for the most part, this post turned into an argument about YRs versus AAs. Both are necessary, at all levels, from the young rich ones to the middle-aged, middle class, schooling show Intro Test A adult amateurs, IMHO.

Dressage is hard. Damn hard. No matter the horse. And AAs are indeed the financial core of the sport in most communities in the U.S.

How do we make the sport accessible and interesting for newbies? What kinds of events should be held?

How about training? We have nice horses in the U.S. now, but do we have enough talented trainers in the outback? or an infrastructure in which to train them (like htey have in Germany?)

Too often, we see riders (ALL levels) riding in horse shows that are missing the bottom two levels of the training scale. Or worse. How do we get the basics out to everyone?

[dressurpferd01]

That, for the most part, this post turned into an argument about YRs versus AAs. Both are necessary, at all levels, from the young rich ones to the middle-aged, middle class, schooling show Intro Test A adult amateurs, IMHO.

Dressage is hard. Damn hard. No matter the horse. And AAs are indeed the financial core of the sport in most communities in the U.S.

How do we make the sport accessible and interesting for newbies? What kinds of events should be held?

How about training? We have nice horses in the U.S. now, but do we have enough talented trainers in the outback? or an infrastructure in which to train them (like htey have in Germany?)

Too often, we see riders (ALL levels) riding in horse shows that are missing the bottom two levels of the training scale. Or worse. How do we get the basics out to everyone?


Here's the thing. It's never going to be accessible for newbies. If you want to be competitive, you have to have a nice horse with good training. That's not cheap nowadays.

There are plenty of good trainers out there, it's just hard to really get noticed...ask me how I know. What Germany, and most of Europe for that matter, has over us is a very small land mass. We have a country that is huge, and it's downright impossible to have enough really good trainers in enough areas to serve everybody. People in the sticks complain when they can't find a good trainer, but the good trainers are usually drawn to areas with higher population densities (there are exceptions, again, ask me how I know). We do NOT have the infrastructure that Germany has for training horses, and we never will. Their whole program is subsidized by the gov't, and we'll never have that (nor should we). The bigger problem is getting really talented horses to talented trainers and letting the excel. There's such a rush mentality here, it makes things difficult. Trainers are under such pressure from owners to get results and quickly, it makes training horses to go correctly very difficult. You either have to sacrifice quality of training, or find owners who have the patience to wait the amount of time the horse will take to develop.

You're never going to get the bottom levels to everyone. The simple fact is, some people just aren't good riders. I see plenty at the shows around here. But they're still out there trying to do well and supporting shows. We can't fix naturally bad riders. What we can do is try to bring more educational opportunities to areas that really need it.

[Fandango7]

One thing that I don't think many of us realize is how tough they are in Germany. Wanna know why they turn out such good riders? Because they don't tolerate crappy ones. If you aren't willing to work your butt off and spend hours a day in the saddle, you can't make it there and they don't beat around the bush about it. I couldn't believe how rigorous the training schedule was at many of the barns I visited there and how dedicated every last one of them there was to their riding.

I find that alot of people here don't take their riding very seriously yet they get angry when they don't score well at a show and they can't seem to figure out why. Riding there is like any professional sport here. Their YRs are leaps and bounds ahead of most here and they work very hard on all types of horses.

I do want to add that I was able to go to Germany and ride because of a scholarship I won through the United States Pony Clubs, not because my parents are ultra-rich.

I also want to add that the BNT offer their services to the Advanced YR clinics because they believe that youth IS the future of dressage. I heard every one of them say it at the clinics. Another example is all the wonderful opportunities that Lendon Gray has put forth for young people interested in dressage. AA are the backbone of dressage, but youth shouldn't be discounted.

[poltroon]

I think dressage is very accessible to newbies. Any horse is physically capable of doing training level. The intro level tests require very minimal riding skills. There's no jumping. Schooling shows (in California) are easy to put on and fairly plentiful. The ring size needed is small.

The fact that there's a score sheet with objective scores makes it easy for a rider to compete against herself and not worry too much about the ribbons. Of course, ribbons are nice, but there are schooling shows and amateur sections for people riding limited horses.

I think one thing we could do is create more opportunity for riders on limited horses to be recognized. I really would like to see dressage equitation classes that are evaluating precision and the quality of the rider with as little of the score being about the horse's gait as possible. I know there are some collective flat classes being held, but that's not what I think is the way to go: I want the evaluation, with the pattern ride, not a WTC flat class.

I love the awards that are X scores above 60%. It's a realistic goal for most people on most horses.

[hammondcrazy@yahoo.com]

I also want to add that the BNT offer their services to the Advanced YR clinics because they believe that youth IS the future of dressage. I heard every one of them say it at the clinics. Another example is all the wonderful opportunities that Lendon Gray has put forth for young people interested in dressage. AA are the backbone of dressage, but youth shouldn't be discounted.[/QUOTE]

So I guess if you are not a YR you should just sell your barn horses and dreams because it is too late for the rest of us? That is why a lot of AA riders are resentful to the whole YR thing. My former boss HATED YRs and she sold horse products that most of us heard. Black as Knight. I got a fax and it was Young Rider Magazine asking if we would be interested in advertising with them? she took a piece of paper faxed it and said I wouldn't advertise with you if you were the last venue left I HATE YRs. I told her that it would be very wise to advertise with them I was ignored. we would get magazines every month and a Young Rider magazine would come in the pile every month. There was this kid that my coworker had and they were broke and she loved horses. I would give her those magazines and I sponsored her riding lessons at a barn down the road from me.She is now working at that barn and riding there, she is getting out of the cesspool that she was destined to live in the rest of her life.I hope she becomes a YR of notice. The point of this story is, is that it annoys me that there is so so much focus on the YRs and so little on the AArs and the negative attitudes towards YRs because of jealousy. At times I get jealous too, but it isn't the YRs fault I got screwed it is the higher power's fault and mine. So I remember that when I start to get a little jealous and strive to climb out of the sinkhole I am in, and I will
I feel that if there is an adult that is promising that they are also the future. I learn a lot from old people. We are throwing out the baby with the bath water when the BNTs focus so intently on YRs and almost ignore the AAs The future of dressage in the immediate future also rests on folks my age 30s to 50s ad beyond. Yes I agree that kids are our future but as I said before, tomorrow is promised to no one.
As one person said over in Germany it is a mainstream sport, here it is an elitist sport and the pofolk can't enjoy this magical sport. We need to find a way to bring it to the masses as I keep saying, I would love to see a francise type of place where you can take lessons on schoolmasters have practice rides and schooling shows and critiques all for a reasonable monthly fee. Look up Reddemeade and they are the closest thing I can think of. Most barns people take a weekly lesson and not practice because they have no horse. When I learned my instrument I practiced everyday for 9 hours. Well same thing with dressage need saddle time and lots of it. YRs get it and most AArs who don't have a horse don't. That needs to change or Dressage will never be where western riding is, in this country. Mike.

[ToN Farm]

If you aren't willing to work your butt off and spend hours a day in the saddle, you can't make it there ..........<snipped>

I also want to add that the BNT offer their services to the Advanced YR clinics because they believe that youth IS the future of dressage.
It's pretty hard to spend hours a day in the saddle when you're spending it at work in order to earn money to buy that horse and saddle. Then, rush out to the barn after 8+ hours at work and 2 hours of travel time. This is the kind of dedication a lot of AA's have.

As for Youth, believe it or not, a person is not Old when they get past 22.

[Fandango7]

So I guess if you are not a YR you should just sell your barn horses and dreams because it is too late for the rest of us?

That is ridiculous! I don't know what crawled up your butt and died but that is absolutely not what I was saying in my post! I was very sympathetic to you on your rant post but I am starting to see that your attitude is most likely what is holding you back.

[Fandango7]

I realize that I am outnumbered probably 50:1 here and that I am not going to change your resentment toward the YRs. As someone with a "normal" non-horsey job, I know the difficulty with balancing work and horses. The question was "what is the future of dressage" and my personal answer is youth. As someone who graduated from YRs in 2005, I am not under the age of 22 and I am well aware that people who aren't are not anywhere near the end of their riding career. That is a pretty extreme way of interpreting what I said.

[angel]

There are many horse sports out there, and all of them require money in order to participate. What brought the surge of riders to dressage was the desire to ride a beautiful, light in the bridle horse, themselves...not watch and pay for some trainer to do the job. Many of those riders have become disillusioned because the horse is heavy, and still in First Level, multiple years later. What is not understood is that when a rider sits on a fairly green horse, the rider must understand the training process to get the horse up the levels. This also requires that the rider have a well-developed seat. There are so many riders whose seats are much less than desirable, and the instruction they are receiving does not deal with that. Oh, yes, they are told about hands and legs, which are actually some of the last things that should be corrected. Then, after the rider gets a seat, they need to learn the steps of the training, which is obviously not happening either. I know all about the money these riders throw at the problem, trying to find the way...desparately running here and there, just hoping someone can fix the problem. Alas! Few find such an instructor.

The second problem of dressage is also money. No big prize money. Reining is one of the fastest growing sports in which amateurs participate. The difference between it and dressage is the availability of prize money...not just ribbons. You can easily blow $800 for a weekend dressage show that is away from your home town. How many tons of ribbons does that buy?

[angel]

Oh, and Fandango...I have seen some of those young riders with just as many riding faults as we are seeing in the adults that make the upper levels...not quite right seats, horse not completely through, but being held with the curb and forced into the movements. I would feel better about the young riders' program if it actually turned out young riders who could ride better. The future of the sport is better riding, no matter what age, and prize money.

[hammondcrazy@yahoo.com]

That is ridiculous! I don't know what crawled up your butt and died but that is absolutely not what I was saying in my post! I was very sympathetic to you on your rant post but I am starting to see that your attitude is most likely what is holding you back.

IT WAS A JOKE!!! Laugh.

[Fandango7]

Oh, and Fandango...I have seen some of those young riders with just as many riding faults as we are seeing in the adults that make the upper levels...not quite right seats, horse not completely through, but being held with the curb and forced into the movements. I would feel better about the young riders' program if it actually turned out young riders who could ride better. The future of the sport is better riding, no matter what age, and prize money.

:rolleyes: Yeah because I definately said that everyone that comes out of the YR program is a star. Of course there are alot of them that can't ride. There are also alot of AA and pros that can't ride either. What's your point? The program is what I am praising, not every rider that comes out of it.

[Fandango7]

IT WAS A JOKE!!! Laugh.

Your post wasn't joking. You were having another rant.

[hammondcrazy@yahoo.com]

Your post wasn't joking. You were having another rant.

No wasn't having another rant. I was joking. Anyways I don't need another person bitching at me please. I support YRs gees.

[kdow]

Umm. . . do you know what a ride in the Advanced YR clinics costs? Free or low cost entries into many clinics? with who?

There are also thousands of dollars of scholarships offered to AA every year but the pool is much bigger to draw from so they are harder to obtain.

Then one of the focuses might be to increase the number of scholarships available to AA so that the availability better matches the size of the pool. If there are significantly more AA riders out there of a level to compete for scholarships, fairness would say that the number of scholarships available should be larger also. (I.e. if there's 30 YR and 70 AA, rather than scholarships being 3 YR and 3 AA, it should be 3 YR and 6 AA so that the same percentage of both groups have the opportunity.)

[poltroon]

The second problem of dressage is also money. No big prize money. Reining is one of the fastest growing sports in which amateurs participate. The difference between it and dressage is the availability of prize money...not just ribbons. You can easily blow $800 for a weekend dressage show that is away from your home town. How many tons of ribbons does that buy?

Yes, but... have you seen the entry fees for those classes with big prize money? IMHO, that only raises the stakes, to the detriment of the horses, and makes the people doing well more well off and limits opportunities for people at the bottom. I'd rather skip the prize money and have the lowest possible entry fee, personally.

[poltroon]

I realize that I am outnumbered probably 50:1 here and that I am not going to change your resentment toward the YRs. As someone with a "normal" non-horsey job, I know the difficulty with balancing work and horses. The question was "what is the future of dressage" and my personal answer is youth. As someone who graduated from YRs in 2005, I am not under the age of 22 and I am well aware that people who aren't are not anywhere near the end of their riding career. That is a pretty extreme way of interpreting what I said.

I'm sorry you're feeling picked on. You asked why AAs were resentful of Young Riders, and you're being answered, in spades. ;)

The fact is that in dressage, as I said, I think it's equally likely that we'll find our future stars coming from adult riders - and remember those riders aren't necessarily people starting out as adult riders. Many of them had a substantial junior career on horses one way or another, even if that experience isn't from dressage. I've known many people with that background to get a job, learn as an amateur, and then turn pro in their 30's or 40s (true in eventing even more so). I think if you were to run the raw numbers, probably more people who start dressage as an adult move into the high performance ranks than the YRs... not sure percentage-wise.

For our future, we have to be inclusive and supportive to all groups. Amateur re-riders and first time riders who just want to have a little fun. Young, struggling professionals. Junior and Young riders. Kids with ponies. Skilled long-time amateurs. Wealthy amateurs. If we want to divide up opportunities and special events, the best strategy is to make sure all groups are targeted.

It was adult amateurs who paid impressive sums of money to USET for a chance to train with Debbie McDonald for a month. It is adult amateurs who support a lot of show infrastructure with their volunteering. Even the lowliest amateurs, the ones who struggle to put together a quality Training level test, may be the ones who are out there scribing every month and organizing a local chapter, or advertising in a chapter newsletter.

Regardless of your age or financial circumstances, there are not enough good dressage trainers with quality school horses. And for that matter, not enough dressage trainers with school horses at all. Many H/J stables have an attached feeder lesson program, and that is where their future high-end clients come from. Dressage trainers generally don't.

[poltroon]

One more thought on this, based on my perspective as an ex-junior rider in the hunter division in the 80's.

It may be different in dressage today than hunters then, but at the time I felt a great deal of pressure that if I was ever going to show anyone I was any good, that I had to do it by the end of my 17-year-old year. This created a lot of pressure ... and in the end, I feel it was both unnecessary and unproductive. When I didn't meet all of my goals, I was devastated... and for what? The reality is that since then I've become far more accomplished and mature as a horseman, and that even at the advanced age of 40, I don't consider FEI out of reach, not even after a sideline of being a mom for a bit.

To focus on the YR is to create a pressure cooker that only the luckiest and wealthiest can survive, to have the right horse ready and sound for the right competition at the right time.

And then we're just going to kick these kids out on the street at age 22?

Creating the programs for AAs and young professionals doesn't really take anything away from the kids, because (we hope) they will grow up to be in one of those categories, and they will still need and want opportunities and clinics and awards and recognition and assistance. And, they will have plenty of time to get the right horse and the maturity to take advantage of those programs, without feeling over the hill at 21.

:)

[Fandango7]

Then one of the focuses might be to increase the number of scholarships available to AA so that the availability better matches the size of the pool. If there are significantly more AA riders out there of a level to compete for scholarships, fairness would say that the number of scholarships available should be larger also. (I.e. if there's 30 YR and 70 AA, rather than scholarships being 3 YR and 3 AA, it should be 3 YR and 6 AA so that the same percentage of both groups have the opportunity.)


I couldn't agree more.


And then we're just going to kick these kids out on the street at age 22?

Well, now we have programs like the Brentina Cup to transition YR to upper level competition. I think the true stars of the YR program are shining at the Brentina Cup.


I am by no means AA unfriendly. I do think that more scholarships should be offered for AAs because of the sheer number of them. I do think that the USDF adult dressage camps, local GMOs and AA scholarships are all terrific ways that AAs can become more involved in dressage and that perhaps more could be done for AAs. I know several of them who are excellent riders and put all their time and financial resources into their riding.

I was never bashing AAs in any of my posts, and I also never said that every YR is a talent. I just think it is unfair to label all of them as spoiled rich kids who are handed everything when all the AAs I see winning in Wellington are incredibly wealthy. It is not fair, but it is what it is. If you have the financial resources, you can excel faster than if you don't and I don't think blaming others or God or whatever is very fair.

[Fandango7]

No wasn't having another rant. I was joking. Anyways I don't need another person bitching at me please. I support YRs gees.

Well perhaps you should think about stuff BEFORE you type it or say it. Because I don't think anyone here would see that as a joke. Presenting yourself more professionally would probably be a good start to finding your dream job.

[dressuursport]

CatOnLap and Lewin made good points.

This whole discussion is AA vs YR, but what about the pros? Not the BNTs, but the little name pros who make up probably 95% of the pros? The people who will teach the AA's and the YR hopefuls? This is not an easy business to get started in, nor is it especially lucrative. We might pay $$$ to a BNT for a clinic and think all pros are rolling in money, but that's only a small percentage of them.

I understand the complaint about so much money going towards YR, because the reality is that most of these kids don't need it, so the majority opinion seems to be "why give money to the people who need it the least."

Fandango, you've done a good job standing up for yourself, but early on you mentioned your YR horse was given to you. Do you realize how few people are ever given a YR type horse? That is one of the points being made by the disgruntled posters. People don't generally give YR type horses to AA's or little name pros. (When I say "YR type horse" I'm referring to the training and quality that makes a YR horse, a horse like this could obviously be ridden by a rider of any age.) Even if you weren't one of the rich YRs, you still benefited from simply being a YR hopeful, in a way the AA's and most pros do not.

One of the biggest complaints I hear repeatedly about the state of dressage (besides the expense of showing) is that there are not enough good affordable trainers, especially in more remote areas. I think a good start toward growing dressage is to find ways to encourage and continue to educate the little name pros, so that there will be more affordable quality instruction available for both the AA's and the YR hopefuls.

And quit raising entry fees and membership fees every time we turn around ;)

[angel]

I think that it might be conceivable that some adults have received horses as gifts that could have been a YR horse. These sorts of gifts do not happen often for any of us. I remember several years back..well, more than several at this point:lol:. that we had a YR here in Florida that did all her own work. She did not start with a trained horse. I seem to remember that it was a Lippizan, and that this YR lived over near Orlando.

I think that the YR program is good for the sport. But, I also think there should be more directed toward those young trainers who are trying to get established. I do realize that money is not exactly falling out of the sky for any of it. Many YRs do have parents that can afford the expense, or have a trainer behind them helping them....but, not all.

[poltroon]

I have to agree that if I were to pick one group who most needs clinic assistance and support, it's 'young' professionals ... not necessarily by age. Good teaching to and from them trickles down to everyone in the sport. The certification and L programs are one big element for this group.

I think it's really important that all professionals, at all levels, have mentors or at least peers that they go to for feedback and new ideas. Young pros are struggling financially, usually, and giving them a good peer network is a big part of the puzzle.

[slc2]

Fandango, chill.

You don't have to defend the YR program QUITE that staunchly. It has pros and cons just like everything else.

I definitely see people giving lip service to the idea of mentors and riding schoolmaster horses, but as one friend put it, 'They get really pissed off when they actually see people DOING that', LOL!

How true, how true.

People also DO see the young riders get some leeway on rules that amateurs don't get, and they resent it. They represent a kind of compromise between pro and amateur and many people complain bitterly about it.

People DO see the young riders get the ride on some very nice horses, provided by trainers and sometimes parents, and sometimes those are expensive leases on well trained horses that other youn people have gotten medals on. There is a huge resentment of wealth in our country anyway.

I also think the pony club ideal of the volunteer instructor occasionally teaching the student who works mostly by himself and learns basic horsemanship mostly on his own on a homebred horse or a hand me down from his older sister, to be getting violated. I don't think that's completely relevant to the competitive world and to a future as an FEI level dressage trainer/competitor (and PC very often these days involves instruction from professionals specializing in dressage, jumping and eventing anyway), but a lot of people do "compare and complain", LOL.

One of the things I think people do quite often, is complain bitterly if a clinic is limited to JR/YR or if JR/YR are offered assistance to get to a clinic. THAT seems to really make some people mad.

Not every young person comes out of the YR program riding and training like Reiner Klimke, but one had better not rely too strongly on the impressions of the YR program from 20, or even 10, years ago, because the program has come a long way since then and so have the riders. And professionals, very strong ones, DO come out of the YR ranks. Add to that, the quality of the riders is a lot 'deeper' now, in that you see much bigger classes of YR, and often all or even 80-90% of the class very, very strong and capable.

There are also people that resent the young riders just a little bit too much. THEY would like to be riding the nice horse, THEY would like to get some of the assistance YR's do, so everything they see in the YR is 'unfair'. Maybe they have made some choices that led them away from the intense pressure of that sort of achievement, and were more comfortable for them at the time...then they turn around and whine about other people getting advantages they didn't get. You makes your choices, you make your future. People LOVE to have someone to blame other than themselves.

I think the bottom line for me is 'people complain'. People just complain. About anything. And horse people complain more than most. Professionals at the top don't ride well enough, or care enough about their horses. Amateurs are sloppy, YR get too much help, the judges are crooked, dressage is going to hell in a bucket, blah blah blah blah blah.

What they don't understand is that most of those 'lucky' kids work very, very hard on those 'nice' horses, and those 'nice' horses aren't all that easy to ride. I've seen some YR and what they do - I doubt 99% of amateurs would be willing to work that hard, or that intensely, in fact, most riders I know very diligently set things up so there is very, very little pressure on themselves.

Having a lease on an expensive horse and taking lessons every single day from a demanding professional with very high standards, showing every weekend and having EVERYONE expect to see miracles every time your butt hits the saddle, is more pressure than most people can stand.

[Demeter]

Two cents here and there ...

1. Are many AAs able and willing to travel *to* the GP horse that someone would "give" them to ride? My impression may be wrong, but it does seem to me that an awful lot of the YRs often move to be with the horse in a work/training situation.

2. As an AA myself, I do believe "we" are the foundation of support for the sport. I'm not sure it could become more popular or not, but "we" sure could use more and better education. That means not only slightly more affordable, but also significantly better quality. The sport is a business.

That being said, how do beginners, novices, even intermediate riders, in fact any of us, know when they're being sold snake-oil? Or even not-quite-right instruction and guidance? We don't. We choose someone who is reasonably close and gets mention on message boards or writes books. Some of us choose instructors who will take us and are just chuffed to little mint balls at that.

Some of us are happy "studying" dressage and not showing, others want to show, and we go out there. In either case, not knowing how to ride a shoulder in versus haunches in demonstrates a huge gap in education. "Safe" instruction is not the same as excellent *dressage* instruction. Certification, like much of dressage, is subjective and political. Knowing how to instruct a variety of people, few of whom are going to continue on and "make your name" requires a great deal of maturity and teaching education, and it's a different skill-set than riding a horse.

I'm kinda focused on what's best for me and the horses with whom I come in contact and expect what's "best for the sport" will work itself out.

[slc2]

Very, very very well said.

"chuffed to little mint balls "

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

i hope that becomes a new coh-ism.

CLMB

[Alpha Mare]

I have no resentment of the YR nor do my riding friends - although I do not think the future of dressage depends upon the YR program either. I'm with CatonLap and Demeter.

The only thing I envy about the YRs is that they usually come to the competitions with parent and/or friends. Having that other hand to hold the horse or pitch in to load the gear is really nice. My AA friends and I do help each other, but it's not the same as with 'ground crew' who are not riding.

I do question what is meant by 'the future of dressage' - US participation in the sport at the Olympics or WEG? Growth of membership of USDF? Entries at Dressage shows? Or people educating themselves to ride 'on the bit' and working with the horse to 'carry' himself/herself?

Because I see many more AAs interested in the one (1) horse they own trying to make the most of it, at whatever 'deliberate speed' they can achieve (in most cases, emphasis on 'deliberate') than YRs. And for those AAs dressage is a journey, not an end, and showing is part of the program, on their terms, when they are ready. And when the horse is in it's later years, they may ride quietly at home until it is time for complete retirement. The YR program is a competitive program (showing) that means the horse needs to be ready by x date, sound and willing to do the work, and trained to a high level to showcase the rider. Different goals for the two groups.

IMO the 'future of dressage' is with the AAs who will spend the $ to buy their horse, board their horse, buy the tack, attend the clinics and otherwise support the critical mass of suppliers that are needed to make this a 'sport' in the US. I think it's testament to the inherent attractiveness of it to the riders that the sport has been growing in the last few years without much in the way of 'recruitment'. And I expect it will ebb and flow with the economy, like other things, and ultimately grow as more and more AAs decide to stop jumping or finally have the $ to get a horse instead of standing on the sidelines, as so many of the current 40-something riders have done.

If I was trying to help the USDF I'd tell them the single best place for prospects is the United States Pony Clubs and the second best place would be the 4-H programs. More engagement with those two organizations would keep dressage in a positive light with the younger generation while fostering the all 'round horsemanship skills you need in any horse sport. But I am making the distinction between the sport and USDF for a reason, as I think the organization has gotten a life of it's own and 'sharing' with others (organizations) would be an opportunity not fully realized at this time.

Prix Caprilli classes wouldn't be out of place either.

And I'd say the biggest risk to the sport is the continuing loss of open space that makes it harder and harder to stable horses properly (with turnout) and more and more expensive for us all, meaning a barrier to entry for newbies to the sport.

[Surviving the Dramas]

New Zealand is relatively new to dressage. In fact, purpose bred Warmblood horses have only started to boom here in the last 10-15 years so we are well behind the 8 ball (but doing our best to catch up). Dressage over here takes a very poor third behind Eventing and Showjumping/Show Hunter (Hunter classes) for younger people IMO. Where I keep my horses, I am the sole DQ amongst a group of Eventers.

I have just aged out of the YR program here in NZ, though I was a member of the Development Squad. Was it worth being a member? Not really. We had one weekend of good training in (3 lessons) and that was it. No on going support, no financial help. It was that weekend, and that weekend only (but was great to have a good session with the other YR's). Financially it would have been better to go to a clinic with my regular instructor, but still, I don't resent that weekend at all (perhaps the weather though:lol:)

Here in NZ the YR's, AA's & Pro's all tough it out together. There is NO separation of classes. You could have a Pro on their new spangly toy going out at any level and competing against AA's and YR's for the same prize money, same year awards etc etc.

Here it becomes more about doing it for the love of it. It is FAR more accessible for the masses to have a dabble at dressage as we have much lower entry fees, lower association fees, and lower ground fees, it is also much cheaper to buy nice established 1st/2nd horses horses. Financially the everyday upkeep is much harder to bear than the cost of entry fees. I am lucky to have a supportive (but by NO means rich) family.

Those YR's that are in my area are in it for the long haul. I love going for a good jump, but I am 1st and foremost into my dressage and will always be. That small group of us are in it to be the future of NZ dressage (and other areas are the same). However, while you need to look after us, you need to look after your AA's to. As someone has said, they are the money basically. They keep the everyday running going, by turning up, paying their entry fees etc, and knowing that they won't always be in the money. Here people do not go out to win, they go out to compete against themselves - improve scores, get a better feel through the test etc. The prize money is so worthless it is not worth thinking about :lol:

Our local dressage group ran a "training squad" weekend where you paid your money (very minimal cost) and turned up for a good 3 day weekend's worth of work, multiple lessons, lectures from successful professionals, sports psychologists, vets etc. The specialists that did this did so for free in order to keep costs down. I have heard the weekend was a major success and appears to have 'lit the fire' for several people to look towards dressage.

As a sport dressage needs to be encouraging people to have a go. How to achieve this, I'm not as sure about, but providing opportunities for YR's and AA's alike appears to be essential in minimizing the resentment between the groups. Here we have the equivalent to an AA's squad too. I think it is called the NZ Newcomers Group. Good squad, with horses competing solidly at about 3rd and up. That appears to be giving our AA's something to aim for which I like...

[Fandango7]

being[/I] a YR hopeful, in a way the AA's and most pros do not.


Actually, I benefited from being a GOOD rider. Horse belonged to rich couple with a barn full of nice upper level horses. Husband embezzles company money and loses his broker license. Couple must declare bankruptcy and sell their horses. Most are sold right away and the remaining two are sent to BNT. BNT says both are crap (because he couldn't ride either of them) and tries to send them back. I go to try horses at BNT's barn and one of them belongs to the couple. Love the horse although he is VERY heavy and sour from husband ripping on his face and I decide to move on. Wife is there watching me ride him. After 2 weeks I get a call from wife saying that she HAS to get rid of the horse and that a good home is her priority. Also said that I did such a beautiful job on him that she would like him to go to me.

The story of how I got an incredible ex-Pan Am games horse for free. Not because I was a YR, but a good rider.

[Lendon Gray]

Excuse me if it has been mentioned already since I have not read all of the posts. But I understand that people are bemoaning the fact that there are not more scholarships for AA's. So why aren't there more people who apply for the scholarships available such as those given through The Dressage Foundation? One region last year didn't have anyone apply! The Gifted Fund is for AA's only and the Hopkins Fund is for clinics for riders of any level.

[spotted mustang]

Excuse me if it has been mentioned already since I have not read all of the posts. But I understand that people are bemoaning the fact that there are not more scholarships for AA's. So why aren't there more people who apply for the scholarships available such as those given through The Dressage Foundation? One region last year didn't have anyone apply! The Gifted Fund is for AA's only and the Hopkins Fund is for clinics for riders of any level.

the same thing happens in academia: scholarships are out there, but some don't get enough applicants.

I guess the reasons could be the same:
- people don't know about them
- people fear the process may be too complicated and they are daunted by it (even if it is actually very easy)
- people just don't have the time.

I think it's great these exist - maybe one could do an informal survey among riders at AA competitions or clinics to find out if they are aware of these, and if yes, what keep them from applying?

[spotted mustang]

haven't read the whole thread, but my thought:

we'd need a broader base. When you can go to the local pony club anywhere in America and get a good lesson on a good horse by a good (ideally, certified) trainer - then I think dressage would be as accessible and popularas it is in Germany.

Of course, it's a chicken-and egg kinda question.

[HollysHobbies]

I think people have made some interesting points regarding the current YRs who have wealth and upper-level horses probably don't need financial support from their organizations.

As a pony-club grad, I really respect the idea of horsemanship, sportsmanship, giving back, and teamwork they foster in youth...and you CAN ride a back-yard pony as long as it's safe. I think this is a great place to look for up-and-coming youth and often a good place to find kids who are really dedicated and motivated because pony club tends to weed out the "horse show brats" who aren't willing to follow their "the horse comes first" standards.

I'd love to see more opportunities for those great kids who head to USPC championships (or those that qualify in their regions and can't afford to go!) to get clinics/opportunities from the great pros we have out there! I've heard Lendon's camp for kids/YRs is amazing...is their recruitment of pony clubbers done for that? (BTW, I read Lendon's WHOA to Go page by page EVERY SINGLE time I start a new young horse :) )

I'm an AA myself and only in my low 30s--it's tough with all the fees and having a regular, demanding job outside the barn to continue to progress. But I love it.

[HollysHobbies]

As my first year back into the recognized dressage from eventing and pony club before that, I was STUNNED to find that I couldn't compete in a Musical Freestyle without 3 qualifying scores from USDF shows! Those are so fun and are a great way to attract outside viewers/more funding? to the sport! I'm sure there was a good reason they did that--I just haven't done my research.

2. There is a need for a more positive dressage show atmosphere. I encountered really overwhelmingly negative feedback on my tests--I deserved it, to be sure! but I was really discouraged to find that there was only 1 line of positive comments on my ENTIRE tests--every OTHER LINE was negative although I got mostly 6s and some 7s. I know that was really discouraging to read. As a professional educator (high school), it is important to provide balanced feedback to students/riders...the negatives won't keep people coming back.

Additionally, I got REEMED OUT several times by a ring steward--I was calling a test for someone. I got reemed out for that, although I did nothing wrong. I also got REEMED for her being "late" (actually, she was on time, just not early)...I"M NOT HER TRAINER! I didn't deserve that at all. Left a very sour taste for recognized showing in my mouth.

3. Clinic sponsorships: What an AWESOME IDEA! I saw a "ride" was available recently through my GMO--I can't go that weekend, but what a great idea for poor AAs!

4. Make VOLUNTEER hours that happen OUTSIDE USDF count toward scholarship applications, etc. I volunteer for US pony club AND through Thoroughbred Retirement Foundation and work a full time job (and ride my ow horse, etc. etc, etc)! I'm pressed to also volunteer at USDF in order to apply for many scholarships AAs are eligible for! TRF and USPC are so important and need your help!!!

5. LOWER THE FEES for joining USDF and USEF, especially for amateurs.

Love the USDF Medals Program--I think this is a great idea and gives AAs something to work towards that is attainable. (I only just discovered it...I had been content just to progress through lessons and event... and have just reentered the show ring to start my Bronze)

I also want to say that I've ridden in France for a year (had a regular job over there but couldn't give up riding)--the European approach to riding is that if you do it, you have to go Grand Prix or go home. I don't subscribe to that view and it alienates a lot of people who might ride just for fun... (I consider myself a ride for fun person...I'm not Olympic Bound, but I love progressing and I'm working towards my Bronze USDF Medals) I remember always getting quite the look from my barnmates in France when I didn't take daily lessons (so I could practice riding my horse on my own...didn't have much money to pay for daily lessons either) or when I took trail-rides to break up the routine on my best friend/schoolmaster who I inexpensively bought in France--Europeans view horses the same way...if it's not going Grand-Prix, get rid of it. So I got a great 10 year old 4th level selle schoolmaster for a SONG! :) And, I was surprised to find that NOT everyone at my barn TRULY enjoyed riding...some did it just to "be the best" and "win"...of course, I also was the "stupid americainne" at the barn post 9-11, so I'm sure that factored in. My trainers there, however, were blow-me-away awesome, although I think there are some awesome ones here in the States too!