Too much oil?

[ErinW]

I've always had EASY keepers. Now I don't. :no:

My new gelding is a 6 yo, 17.1h Clyde/TB cross and underweight. I can see his ribs with his winter coat, and know that they'll be even more visable when he sheds out totally.

I have him in full dressage training, so he's worked 4-6 times a week (mostly bending, flexing, walk and trot). He's on 4 lbs of Ultium twice/day (since I board I have to choose from their feed choices - Strategy, Horsechow, Eq. Senior or Ultium). He also gets a 1 cup of veggie oil in his morning feed and hoof supplement... He is pasture boarded so is out all day and thrown hay in the mornings, but the pasture isn't all that great.

My questions is how much oil can I add without it being dangerous? Could I do another cup in the morning, or do I have to spread them out? I don't want to over-do grain, but maybe I should up the Ultium to 5lbs per feeding?

Any ideas?

[Simkie]

You do not want to feed more than 2 cups a day.

I wouldn't feed more than a cup per feeding.

Have you done a power pak and wormed for tapes? That's where I start.

[ErinW]

My barn does a really good job and deworms on a 6 week schedule, alternating dewormers/brands etc. Is there a special dewormer for tapes? :confused:

Thanks!

[MissKatie]

Maybe try hay pellets since he is only getting hay in the AM and not on a great pasture?

[Simkie]

My barn does a really good job and deworms on a 6 week schedule, alternating dewormers/brands etc. Is there a special dewormer for tapes? :confused:

Thanks!

Yes. Equimax, Zimectrin Gold or Quest Plus.

If your barn doesn't do a yearly power pak (and I would be awfully surprised if they did) ABSOLUTELY do one now. Doesn't matter where your horse is in rotation or when he was last wormed.

[ThoroughbredFancy]

Power Pak would be great.

If the pasture isn't so great you could feed alfalfa pellets.

[movo]

He needs more hay. How much hay does he get in the a.m.? and he should be getting more at night.

[JB]

Had to add - deworming "every 6 weeks" is not a valid deworming schedule. The high potency dewormers are "good" for 8 and 12 weeks, being ivermectin and moxidectin. The dewormers with the high resistance issues in single doses - fenbendazole, pyrantel pamoate, oxibendazole - are "good" for a 4-6 week period.

[Dianna]

Well, it may not be a case of a "hard keeper" as much as a horse that needs more calories. Depending on how much hay the barn is feeding (one time a day), without the hay added, you are only feeding 9,200 calories (I believe that Ultium is 1800 calories/#) and the one cup of oil adds 2000 calories.

This big horse working five days a week, in the colder winter weather is going to need at least 29,000 maybe more calories a day ... depending on if he has a WB metabolism or a TB one ...remember in winter your horse's caloric needs increase by as much as 30%, if the horse is working and needs to gain weight, more calories are needed as well.

I would probably do a fecal before I started changing the worming program, only because I prefer to see what a fecal says .. if I was going to do anything, I would think tape worms.

But in any event, I would probably up the fat and definitely insist on more forage .. I can't imagine pasture is all that good right now and without out the long stem forage, you are lucky to not have had issues.

I would discount the calories from pasture and just use the ones which are handed to him as your calories you are counting for this horse.

[pines4equines]

I agree with above poster. 4lbs of grain just does not seem like a lot for such a large horse in a 4 - 5 day a week work pattern. I know he has the draft in him so you think easy keeper however...

Here's what happened to me. I had three horses. Two of which were on Strategy only because the old mare would only eat that. It was a heavy feed, weight-wise. When we put the old mare down, I switched the one 16.2 TB gelding to Agway Superior Senior. Basically the same looks-wise and weight wise as TC Senior, beet-pulpy looking, but $2 bucks cheaper a bag.

Well, what a scoop was for this feed, it was much less weight/pounds wise than Strategy and the horse lost weight. At first, I thought it was a worm thing and then had his teeth floated which didn't need it per the vet.

And then ding, ding the rocket scientist here. I weighed his feed. He was only getting about 4 lbs a day and he was loosing weight. He is a high maintenance 16.2 TB on free choice NY 1st cut grass hay. So I upped his feed and he's gained weight and looks much better.

I know many on this forum are a bit anti-grain but in your horse's instance, he does need more. I would read the bag too, lots of good info in regards to weight of horse and how many pounds he should be getting. I would work with that and as he gradually gains, then back off lbs. Good luck.

[Simkie]

I agree with above poster. 4lbs of grain just does not seem like a lot for such a large horse in a 4 - 5 day a week work pattern. I know he has the draft in him so you think easy keeper however...

The OP states that the horse is on 4 lbs PER FEEDING. Eight pounds per day.

[pines4equines]

Arh, arh! Sorry! Should have read it closer. Ignore my post, the rocket scientist signs off...

[Fairview Horse Center]

The harder keepers in my barn eat 12 lbs per day thru the winter - especially the end of the winter/early spring when horses tend to drop weight. Once you get into June, and they are gaining, they are cut back.

[Dianna]

I'm too old to do math in my head anymore .... the 8#'s of Ultium is 14,400 calories, but still I believe this horse is on the extreme "low" side of caloric intake more than being a hard keep.

[ErinW]

I appreciate the advice.

What's the best place to get a PowerPak?

Yes, he's getting 8lbs today per day, and hay is supposed to be fed in the evening, but not sure if they always do (as I never see it).

His teeth were just checked by the vet last week, and he just had he annual vaccinations/coggins.

He has plenty of energy, so I don't want to add anything that would possibly make him any hotter. :eek:

Also, we haven't really had a harsh winter, and the temps have been mild lately (50-70's) and if they drop below 50 degrees, he wears a sheet b/c he was clipped before I bought him.

Perhaps this is a dumb question, but how do I figure out how many calories my horse needs per day if he's being worked light-moderately 4-5 days per week? Although I love my barn, it's always harder when you board and don't have full control over your horse's diet.

[RiverBendPol]

You can feed 1 cup of oil per every 500 pounds of horse. I feed 3 cups a day, 1 cup per meal. Go to www.ruralheritage.com to read about the benefits of oil, particularly in draft Xs.

[JB]

At the moment it sort of doesn't really matter how many calories he should be getting. He might need 30,000, he might need 20,000, but he needs what he needs to maintain good weight, so that's obviously more than what he's getting now :)

OR, he needs a different mix of calories, as in, maybe the Ultium is counterproductive for him and may be some/all of the reason he's borderline too hot right now, which is then causing him to burn excess calories.

More hay is the obvious answer. If he's cleaning up all his hay at night, he needs more. If he's leaving some, well, that's hard, especially if they don't put hay out in the pasture.

You REALLY need to make sure he's getting ample hay in his stall at night - going 12 hours with minimal to no forage is not acceptable.

You're already pushing the max food to feed at one sitting, which is about 5lb. You could add 1c oil to the evening feeding, but that's only 2,000 calories and more fat isn't necessarily what he needs.

If it were me, I'd not use the Ultium and I would go down a different path. Purina Enrich 32 (since you can obviously get Purina) for the nutrition, 1lb, then several pounds each feeding of alfalfa pellets and/or beet pulp, and that can include 1lb of rice bran and/or black oil sunflower seeds (per feed, 2lb max/day). Simpler is often what these guys need.

[merrygoround]

I would see if more hay is a possibility. Hay/pasture should be the foundation of a horse's diet.

[pines4equines]

Also, just check out EPSM. Google it. Is he loosing weight or is he suffering from this at all? Dr. VAlentine of Rural Heritage Magazine wrote an informative article on this subject? Just checking all aspects.

[Dianna]

I think I would first figure out what he is actually getting. When people "tell" me and then "show me" what they are feeding, often times it isn't quite what they thought they were doing.

Take a plastic bag and get a "serving" of what your horse gets grain wise and weigh it out. Do the same with the hay (and that is less consistent .. if they feed by flake alone, and the only ever throw 2 flakes ... the range of poundage in any two flakes can be fairly significant from bale to bale).

I would insist on more forage even if it comes out of your own pocket. This is a big horse, probably fairly big boned and sometimes they need to be on the heavier side of good weight to look OK. Also, what does moderate mean to you? Let's not forget that he is out and God only knows how much energy he is burning up being outside being a horse ...

As far as a not harsh winter ... ah, I'm in AZ. Our nights barely go into the 40's ... usually the 50's .. but guess what ... we spend a good part of the year at 90-100 at night and even if it stays in the 60's at night, that is still a 30-40 degree drop during the winter... so while the thermometer says moderate, the actually drop is still significant. Does that make sense?

Once you get a good idea of what you are feeding calorie wise right now ... then up it by 20 to 30% and give it 2 weeks.

As far as enough energy and no more ... you want to stick with forages and fats for that and the forage is something he needs ... since he is a draft/TB cross, both of these breeds do very well with added fat in their diet, and for me, the fat is safer than adding other grain products or additional grain products....

Also, I would probably (just for the heck of it, and to make sure your vet has income - LOL) ... pull a complete blood panel (and a Vit E level which has to be specifically asked for) and see where you are. Sometimes we can be quite surprised when we get blood work back.

I don't envy you ... I know how hard it is to have to board out and make things work, but the reality is, sentiment aside, this horse is a huge investment (asset) and it is up to you to be certain it is maintained.

[ErinW]

don't envy you ... I know how hard it is to have to board out and make things work, but the reality is, sentiment aside, this horse is a huge investment (asset) and it is up to you to be certain it is maintained

Thank you. It IS hard. I like to monitor my horse's diet very carefully, but I feel a bit helpless at times as I only have a few choices and I can't control how the hired help feeds. I'm very familiar with the high fat diet (EPSM/PSSM) diet that Dr. Beth Valentine suggests. I've emailed her more than once regarding my previous draft horses, and her feedback is what I'm trying to aim for, but have limited options as mentioned before.

My horse was a foxhunter for a season (went out evey week) before I bought him, and was fed sweetfeed (not sure exactly how much, but the owner said he didn't eat much). I saw pictures of him and he was much fatter, so I know he's capable of maintaining weight.

The barn is very good about weighing the feed on a scale, so I know he's getting exactly 4lbs morning and evening. I have an 8am-4pm job and can only be out there in the evenings.

I'm going to try COOL Cal 100 and Power Pak. I will add the 2 cups of oil as well as more hay/forage. I can't find BOSS without twigs and crap in it, so I don't add that.

Again, thanks to you all.

[Simkie]

My horse was a foxhunter for a season (went out evey week) before I bought him, and was fed sweetfeed (not sure exactly how much, but the owner said he didn't eat much). I saw pictures of him and he was much fatter, so I know he's capable of maintaining weight.


This SCREAMS encysted strongyles to me. Or perhaps tapeworms.

I have had horse after horse like this really respond to a power pak. Good luck!

[Fairview Horse Center]

If you can't get them to give him more hay, I would add soaked alfalfa hay cubes. or pellets.

Has his teeth been floated?

[ErinW]

Yes, teeth were floated a week ago.

Has anyone found PowerPaks available at their local feed stores? Or do I have to order them online? The sooner I can get it the better.

Looks like I'm going to have to order Cool Cal 100 online.

[Simkie]

Looks like I'm going to have to order Cool Cal 100 online.

You may be able to find "Performance Pak 100" at your local feed store. Same thing as Cool Calories, made by the same people, cheaper.

[ErinW]

When I called around today to 4 feed stores, they said they had Weight Builder by Farnam. Would that work?

[Trevelyan96]

I've been trying to put weight on one of mine with no results, and he is in lightn/no work and was on around 8#/day Legends 11 and free choice hay. Vet was out yesterday for spring shots, and basically said he has no muscle at all. He's also a bit of a 'hottie' even on Smart Calm.

Vet recommended a feed change to a low carb feed combined with rice bran as she said that although he seems to be getting enough calories, he's burning it all off with a high metabolism.

Just a suggestion, you might want to try something similar with your guy. Barn staff would probably be way happy to substitute the rice bran for the oil, less messy and easier to do up.

[ErinW]

Good idea, but I read that Cool Calories has 3x as much fat as rice bran.

[Dianna]

Rice bran is nice, but it is not as high in fat and it also adds to the diet more sol.carbs/starches. I like the idea of the hay pellets or cubes as suggested above ... you can add water and the 2nd cup of oil and call it a day. The horse might need the extra protein as well.

Best of luck. Remember the weight builder products are just packed with calories ... you can accomplish the same with less aggravation. I believe one of the better prices for the power pak are through Valley Vet ... but your vet should also carry it too.

[stryder]

Fat should be added slowly to the diet. Horses don't have gall bladders, so lack the natural ability to handle it. They can develop it, I've learned, but it does take a little time. It isn't an overnight thing.

Good luck. I board my sweet mare, who tends to be a little ribby most of the year. I never would have imagined I would spend so much time concerned with the what and when of her eating routine, or talking to other people about it.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I recently read some research that said high fat blocks the ability to digest fiber. That would not be a good thing. I wish I could find that link to re-read that information.

[Dianna]

It is true that horses don't have gall bladders. But, they do have a biliary system that makes bile (they just don't have the bladder that many species have to store it in), and they digest fat just fine.

In fact, recent studies have shown that the more fat you feed to horses, the more digestible it becomes. This may be because the horse's digestive system can "gear up" to digest it.

With regard to fat and fiber digestion .. I have not heard that and I suspect that would have come up during the 20 plus years of fat being utilized for feeding horses (especially given that the horses that were used as research projects were fed high levels).

[gooselover]

After I got my three OTTB's home, one of them, was in desperate need of gaining some weight. An accident at the vet is all I will say caused the weight loss on one of them.

I experimented around after reading this board like a fool. I REALLY liked the Buckeye Cadence (10% fat), but the price on it shot up alot and I couldn't afford to keep all three on it, especially with one needing more. So, what I have found that works for me is: (and this "recipe" is for the one that needed the weight)

Nutrena Safe Choice & Legends Rice Bran (18% fat) mixed in a ratio of 2-1
- about 8lbs per day
About 1.5lbs per day Envision or Ultimate Finish
1 cup of oil per day

The others are on about 7lbs of straight SafeChoice per day.

All horses get free choice hay.

This worked for me for whatever it is worth

[JB]

With regard to fat and fiber digestion .. I have not heard that and I suspect that would have come up during the 20 plus years of fat being utilized for feeding horses (especially given that the horses that were used as research projects were fed high levels).
I will search tomorrow, as I read that article too.

[Dianna]

The article was in The Horse and read:

Dietary fats are important components of performance horses' diets because they are calorie-dense and energy-rich. Previous studies have shown, however, that diets high in soybean oil interfere with fiber digestion in trotters. It is unclear whether feeding poorly digestible carbohydrates, like cornstarch, compounds this problem by overloading the cecum and altering its bacterial population.

Researchers at the Utrecht University in The Netherlands recently conducted a study to determine whether the inhibitory effect of soybean oil on fiber digestion is influenced by concurrent feeding of cornstarch.

Six trotters were fed three diets in three-week rotations. Each diet had one main source of energy--soybean oil, cornstarch, or glucose. The glucose diet served as a control measure, because glucose is almost completely digested in the small intestine, rarely entering the cecum or colon.

The results of the study suggest that the negative effect of soybean oil on fiber digestion in trotters is a specific effect, not influenced by cornstarch in the diet. This conclusion was drawn because the cornstarch and glucose diets produced the same effects on fiber digestion. It is unlikely, then, that cornstarch adversely effects fiber digestion.

What is still uncertain is how high-fat diets decrease fiber digestion. Previous studies have suggested that increased fat inhibits the activity of resident microbes in the cecum and colon. However, evidence of this action is lacking. Further studies are needed to clarify this unusual dose-effect relationship between fat and fiber in the horse.


************************************************** ***************

OK, here is the problem with this article ... what in the world do they mean that the test was based on using soybean oil as the one main source of energy. So, are they saying that 50% or more of the diet was coming from FAT calories? If so, nobody has ever said that was a good idea.

Everything in moderation ... 20% fat to calories (which is for EPSM horse) is still not the majority of the source of energy in the diet.

[Fairview Horse Center]

This study was not about a good feeding program, but a specific study to see if a carbohydrate like corn starch effected the result of the decreased fiber digestion in realtion to high fat.

[Foxdale Farm]

You can feed 1 cup of oil per every 500 pounds of horse. I feed 3 cups a day, 1 cup per meal. Go to www.ruralheritage.com to read about the benefits of oil, particularly in draft Xs.

Do you have a link to the specific article?

www.foxdalefarm.us

[Dianna]

The study cannot be valid if you do not utiilze a realistic baseline for feeding. Reports can be skewed to show any results ... it is unrealistic to believe that any horse would receive the "majority" of its energy from fat ... if a horse needs 30,000 calories and they base that so that the "majority" was coming from fat, that would have to be at least 15,001 calories from fat, how realistic is that?

[lewin]

My horse was a hard keeper when she was younger and what finially allowed her to maintain a good weight (and what she has been eating now for 5 years.) is Alfalfa hay twice a day and a lunch of 13 cups alfalfa-oat hay pellets mixed with a little over 2 cups of vegetable oil. I looks kind of gross, but she thinks it is tasty.

[JB]

You can feed 1 cup of oil per every 500 pounds of horse. I feed 3 cups a day, 1 cup per meal. Go to www.ruralheritage.com (http://www.ruralheritage.com) to read about the benefits of oil, particularly in draft Xs.

That's actually outdated info from Dr Valentine. Now it's more like 1lb of fat per 1000lb of horse, with the form of the fat being able to come from a variety of sources. 2c oil is 1lb, so that's the "1 cup per 500lb" rule of thumb there.

However, that's for EPSM horses who have a metabolic issue that requires them to intake more fat to replace force restriction of carbohydrates that they cannot conver to energy. It's NOT for your general horse who needs weight. That much fat in a regular horse's diet is not necessarily beneficial, and IME some horses do WORSE with oil than from fewer calories from better sources of energy (ie forage).

[Dianna]

Actually, I have to disagree with JB.

Yes, the studies of 20% fat to calories were done for the purpose of feeding EPSM horses, the basic underlying facts of how horses digest various types of calories holds pretty much true for all horses. Fat calories are digested and converted to use similar to those of forage.

For me, if I have a horse that needs "more" I would rather see it come from calories in fat than calories in sol.carbs/starches. But I would also like to see more forage over and above fat too. All my horses get the 2 cups of oil a day and those times when it isn't in the diet I can see a difference in their overall appearance.

I don't see any reason to go over the 2 cups... and I agree that there will be the horse that may do better with other choices, but, I really don't care for blanket statements because way too much time has gone into.

[shawneeAcres]

I did not read all the replies, but I would be suspicious that this horse may have EPSM with his draft breeding and the weight issue. I'd would recommend an EPSM diet, I am not familiar with Ultium, but we have two EPSM horses, one Clyde/Danish WB cross and one QH. They both get half their ration in Safechoice pellets and half in alfalfa pellets, 1 cup oil AM and PM and vitamin E/selenium supplement. The mare looks positively fabulous, the gelding in less than a month has gained about 75 pounds, he looked AWFUL when we got him and is looking much much better now. Both of these hroses were biopsied and definitely ahve the disease.

[Dianna]

The nice thing about Ultium is that you use far less added oil if you are dealing with an EPSM horse .... the breeding would also make me wonder as well... for me 30 days on "the diet" will tell you quite a bit.

[ErinW]

The EPSM diet is exactly what I am trying....with the addition of Cool Calories 100. I've ordered it, so I'll give this a try. My friend's TB shares a paddock with my horse and her horse is also underweight, so we have been trying to split the cost of extra hay together. We might even consider a round bale, provided we can find good quality hay.

Thanks again for your help. This has indeed been very informational. :)

[Dianna]

Don't forget the Vit. E, which is important. Interestingly, many horses with EPSM originally test low in Vit. E levels as well, which changes as the diet changes and the horse becomes adjusted to utilizing the fat calories to their fullest extent. Please keep us updated.

[Flash44]

Maybe you should find a new place to board. Most horses do best on a diet that is forage based, and then you fill in the holes (calories and nutrients) with an appropriate concentrate. I feed 15-20 lbs of hay per horse per day, when lacking in pasture quality/quantity. The max amount of concentrate I feed is 6 lbs; most of the time it is 3 lbs. I think horses do best when they can pick on something all day, and be fed a minimum of hard feed.

[Dianna]

Flash has a good point ... do you have many colics at your barn? I have never understood why barns balk at feeding sufficient hay and cost isn't an excuse to me .. you pass the cost on to the client ... I don't get it. But I suspect it is harder and harder to find acceptable boarding facilities.

[Androcles]

I think you are making this much too complicated, with weight builder, oil, BOSS, EPSM diet, etc. etc., when all he probably needs is a weight-appropriate amount of hay. It turns out all those weight building supplements turn out to cost more than some extra decent hay once you figure how much more you really need to feed to meet the caloric equivalent. That's a big horse, if you want him to weigh, say, 1800 lbs, he should be getting 40 lbs of hay per day, at least (once he has reached that weight, more to get there).
And yes, feed stores do carry power paks, I've bought them there. So do tack shops.

[Dianna]

40#s of forage (hay) is asking a lot of his system (even at his size). My daughter's
WB is over 18 hands and carries good weight ... though he barely gets through 20#s of hay without leaving. Of course, if perhaps he wasn't getting calories from sources other than hay, he might eat a bit more, but I doubt 40's.

A few years back, I did a thing where I took my horses off all calories other than hay and replaced them (plus added some) in hay. While my horses looked OK, they definitely didn't look as good ... their coats didn't, their muscles didn't and their attitude became more anxious at dinner time.

But I agree this big horse needs to be eating at least 20#'s of long forage every day.

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l212/Blasingim/006-1.jpg

[pines4equines]

40 lbs is not so bad. They just won't eat what they don't want. It really depends on the hay you're feeding. If it's 40 lbs of alfalfa or those fancy schmancy bales you get in CA, then maybe a problem. But 40 lbs of NY 1st cut is not a problem.

Our horses get a bale at night in their stalls. It's about 35 - 40 lbs of NY 1st cut. They have hay in front of them all night long. Whatever is left over, is put out in the paddocks and fields for them to nibble on throughout the day. We have 15 acres of turn out as well. Believe it or not, they'll take a break from the grass and nibble that leftover hay.

[ErinW]

Changing barns is not an option. I love my barn, my trainer, facility, and it's just 8 minutes up the road from my house.

They DO throw hay. I've even bought my own bale or 2 of hay and thrown it and then found some of it to still be there the next day, so I'm not sure my horse and his pasture buddy would eat it all, even if given the choice. He's on pasture, and it's green, but there is not a lot of tall grass. I would not have my horse on a dry lot unless they were too fat etc.

Also, although he's half Clyde, half Tb, 17.1 and sounds huge, he's not built like the Clyde, but more like a big-boned TB (warmblood-like). Therefore I doubt 1800lbs would really be a reasonable weight for him. My full Percheron weighed 1800, and he was a huge 17.3h drafty horse.

I'll start with this and see what I can do. I'm still searching for the power paks locally, but not having any luck.

[Simkie]

I'll start with this and see what I can do. I'm still searching for the power paks locally, but with not having any luck.

Can you find Panacur or Safeguard? Same stuff. Just dose at 2 x dose (based on actual WEIGHT) for 5 days. You'd likely need more drug than what's contained in the pre-packaged powerpak, anyway.

[ErinW]

Yes, I've been searching for Pancur as well, but not Safeguard - I didnt know that was the exact same 5-day deal.

Thanks! I'll keep that in mind.

[Simkie]

Yes, I've been searching for Pancur as well, but not Safeguard - I didnt know that was the exact same 5-day deal.

Thanks! I'll keep that in mind.

The liquid Safegard for cattle or goats works, too. Just top dress on feed. Perhaps you'll have better luck locating that, since you're in TX. All of TX is cattle country, right? ;)

[ErinW]

EXACTLY! Lot's of farms, cows and western riding. But English riding (thank goodness!) is becoming more and more prevalent, but I'm in east Texas...not sure about the western part of the state. :winkgrin:

So I would just put the Safeguard on my gelding's feed for 5 days straight? Does it say all this on the package?

Sorry for all the questions.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Reality is that a lot of horses drop weight in March and April. It is called spring slump. Over the years, I have tried adding beet pulp, deworming every 2 weeks, adding oil to all of the horses meals. Once I took a horse from 4 lbs to 16 lbs per day, increasing every couple of days while he continued to drop, held him at 16 until mid june, and he was MUCH thinner than when I started March 1st. I immediately cut him back to 4, and a few weeks later, he won his class at Lexington. With him, I think I revved up his metabolism trying for just a bit more weight.

I personally believe it is a natural protection from the lush spring grass. If they are a bit thin, they are much less likely to founder. It is also an extra buffer of gaining thru the spring so they are not severely overweight by mid summer. Other's opinion range from it is hard on them shedding their coats, to a difference in bacteria needed to digest the different diet (hay to grass). Most horses really cut back on the hay they are willing to eat once those tiny bits of grass begin to peek up. By then end of the winter, that hay has lost a good deal of its nutrition too.

What I have seen across the board, is that by the end of June, pretty much whether you do nothing, or a lot, they look good. The feed companies seem to know it too, as they always come around with their sales pitch in March and April. ;) "Your horse will look MUCH improved on 60 days of our super duper grain!" "Money back!" Yeah, um, THAT is a safe bet. :lol: :lol:

Have you run a quantitive fecal?

[Simkie]

EXACTLY! Lot's of farms, cows and western riding. But English riding (thank goodness!) is becoming more and more prevalent, but I'm in east Texas...not sure about the western part of the state. :winkgrin:

So I would just put the Safeguard on my gelding's feed for 5 days straight? Does it say all this on the package?

Sorry for all the questions.

Here's the info: http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3900505

It's 4.6 mL per 100 lbs of weight. I'd guess your guy would be 1400-1500? My average to solid 16.1 TB mare is 1300 lbs. So 64-69 (I'd probably round up to 70 mL) once a day for 5 days.

[Androcles]

Do you know how much hay per day (in weight) he is eating? In order to design his ration, you have to start with that information and work from there. You also need to choose a target weight that you want him at (have you decided that) and design the diet and total calories to achieve that. When you want them to gain, you feed more calories and as you approach it, you can back off (at least the hay portion, as a percentage of body weight).

Changing barns is not an option. I love my barn, my trainer, facility, and it's just 8 minutes up the road from my house.

They DO throw hay. I've even bought my own bale or 2 of hay and thrown it and then found some of it to still be there the next day, so I'm not sure my horse and his pasture buddy would eat it all, even if given the choice. He's on pasture, and it's green, but there is not a lot of tall grass. I would not have my horse on a dry lot unless they were too fat etc.

Also, although he's half Clyde, half Tb, 17.1 and sounds huge, he's not built like the Clyde, but more like a big-boned TB (warmblood-like). Therefore I doubt 1800lbs would really be a reasonable weight for him. My full Percheron weighed 1800, and he was a huge 17.3h drafty horse.

I'll start with this and see what I can do. I'm still searching for the power paks locally, but not having any luck.