IR gurus....Any point in testing hay now?

[theoldgreymare]

I have one that was just tested for IR yesterday. I have joined the Yahoo Cushings/IR group which is a wonderful source of info. However, they recommend testing hay asap in order to know what to balance with. If I am using up the last of 2008's hay now, is there any point in testing it with a new crop just around the corner? We plan on buying from the same farmer but I know nutrient and fructan levels can/will vary from cutting to cutting. Do I test now and retest after first cutting (in about 6 weeks for our area), or wait and test after first cutting? I am thinking: 1) get results, 2) keep him on the emergency diet until first cutting and then test hay. Suggestions?

ETA: how often should I be testing? After each new cutting?

[BornToRide]

Hmm, it's really a judgment call and whether or not you want to spend about $50 on it and then again when you get the new hay. You could also decide just to keep soaking the hay for now (keep him on the emergency diet) and test the new hay when it comes in.

[appychik]

I'm not an IR guru... but I do have a recently diagnosed IR horse too. I did test the hay he's on now and found out it's exceptionally high in NSCs. Can't do anything about it though, at the moment, because he's still in a boarding situation where I have no options.

So, I'm testing the new batches of hay soon (just posted a question here on CoTH about 10 minutes ago). I plan on testing each batch of hay so I know what I'm dealing with. The new boarding barn will be great... she's my future MIL :D (just got engaged two weeks ago). And my fiance is in charge of all the hay happenings around there (cutting, etc).

I'd test each batch if I were you... better be safe then sorry. But, in the mean time, if you can, I'd be soaking the hay. Again, not an option for me nor is the emergency diet. :no: I'm hoping Gus will begin making a rebound come next month.

[theoldgreymare]

I need to clarify.....I wasn't thinking along the lines of the cost of analysis so much as having to alter the supplements on him again in six weeks if each batch tests with significant differences.

[Katy Watts]

Managing IR horses is about restricting carbs, not about balancing minerals. The sugar content varies enormously between years and cuttings from the same field. Test BEFORE you buy so you don't end up soaking for another year.

[theoldgreymare]

Managing IR horses is about restricting carbs, not about balancing minerals. The sugar content varies enormously between years and cuttings from the same field. Test BEFORE you buy so you don't end up soaking for another year.

I understand about limiting carbs and keeping a low NSC%. However, I am reading about balancing minerals in IR horses on Dr. Kellon's group. Is this not necessary or does it only apply to Cushings (article titles address IR and Cushings)?

[BornToRide]

Think about it this way - yes balancing everything would be ideal, but how often is nature actually ideal too? There are many influencing factors that could possibly interfere with your horse's nutrient uptake that are simply not controllable. You can only ever come close, but never always control it 100% and nature is usually pretty well equipped of handling variables to a certain degree.

[Katy Watts]

I have spoken to several equine nutrition PhD's about 'balancing' minerals. The only relationship that has been studied and found to require 'balancing' is Ca: P, and the range that is acceptable for mature horses is rather wide. Programs that propose balancing any other minerals must be considered theoretical. I follow traditional scientifically based advice to prevent trace mineral deficiency. Period.

Yes, many ill horses have trace mineral deficiencies, but correcting them does not cure IR. After I tried that 'mineral balancing act', my horses still have IR , although their hair coat is better. I have been using off the shelf ration balancers for about 7 years now, and my horses are healthier overall because I now focus primarily on limiting carbs and exercise. THAT is proven to be the most important. Focus on important stuff. The rest is busy work, and you need to be busy exercising your horse.
Katy

[Katy Watts]

Think about it this way - yes balancing everything would be ideal, but how often is nature actually ideal too? There are many influencing factors that could possibly interfere with your horse's nutrient uptake that are simply not controllable. You can only ever come close, but never always control it 100% and nature is usually pretty well equipped of handling variables to a certain degree.

BTR,
It scares me when we agree on something, but I must say, well said.
Katy

[theoldgreymare]

I have spoken to several equine nutrition PhD's about 'balancing' minerals. The only relationship that has been studied and found to require 'balancing' is Ca: P, and the range that is acceptable for mature horses is rather wide. Programs that propose balancing any other minerals must be considered theoretical. I follow traditional scientifically based advice to prevent trace mineral deficiency. Period.

Yes, many ill horses have trace mineral deficiencies, but correcting them does not cure IR. After I tried that 'mineral balancing act', my horses still have IR , although their hair coat is better. I have been using off the shelf ration balancers for about 7 years now, and my horses are healthier overall because I now focus primarily on limiting carbs and exercise. THAT is proven to be the most important. Focus on important stuff. The rest is busy work, and you need to be busy exercising your horse.
Katy

Thank you Katy and BTR. Katy, I think you just saved me much time and aggrevation with the above post.

[Auventera Two]

I agree with BTR and Katy on this one. I got so mired down in that yahoo group I was scared to let the horse even breathe air. I posted a couple messages then got bombarded with private emails ASAP. Everything was the end of the world. It was so overwhelming. So many questions, form to fill out, so many emails, so many requirements on how to post questions on the board, so much of everything.....I spent weeks reading all the files, and they were very good. Lots of great info. But I had to realize that not everything on there pertains to my horse and my situation.

Yes my hay is tested and I feed a general vit/min supplement. I weigh feed and hay and monitor it very closely but I don't balance minerals and vitamins to the hay based on a hay test. The hay is tested for NSC, but it's still on the high end of acceptable so I still soak for Libbey, but not for the other IR mare.

I would not test the last bit of 2008 hay now unless you just really want to. I'd just soak it until its all gone and then start fresh with 2009. And as for mineral balancing, you do what you feel is best, but my girls do fine on a general vit/min supplement, as do all the other horses I know or have any contact with and they're all fine.

It seems like EXERCISE is the major missing component from the treatment protocol proposed on the yahoo group. Exercise is the one thing that keeps my IR horses weight down and feet comfortable. Oh sure I get criticized for "working a foundered horse" but the horse is very comfortable in hoof boots and soft/thick pads and the exercise is important for her health.

[BornToRide]

:D Did not mean to scare ya Katy .

I very much agree with Katy too - we tend to make things too complicated and horse nutrition is no exception. I always try to look at things form a nature's point of view, because nature is not that complicated in general. I often ask myself "what would nature do?"

When it comes to nutrition I generally find the least processed is usually best because simply the processing of nutrients could interfere with their bioavailability and most you get is maybe just expensive pee and not to mention the additives that can cause problems.

We still know very little about how nature actually provides nutrients for animals but I do believe that there are many other ingredients that help an animal assimilate or utilize nutritional components better, such as enzymes for example and other nutrients we need, we may not even be aware of yet.

To me it would make more sense to collect more information about what plants horses actually eat in the wild and try to copy that as closely as possible in domestic settings (addding dried herbs to low NSC forage for example or grow certain herbs/plants for them) and I think we would probably mostly have rather healthy horses :)

[Auventera Two]

The wild horse eats a wide variety of stuff from sticks and twigs to many kinds of grasses, leaves, weeds, etc. In our perfectly manicured pastures and carefully balanced bales of hay, the horse eats the same thing every single day, day in and day out. When I go on a trail ride, my horses seem to really enjoy grabbing leaves off trees or eating dry twigs off the ground. If left to their own devices, horses eat a lot wider range of forages than they get in domestication. No, I don't think domestic horses should be treated like wild horses because they aren't wild horses. They're domestic performance or companion animals. But I do think there is value in variety.

[Katy Watts]

To me it would make more sense to collect more information about what plants horses actually eat in the wild and try to copy that as closely as possible in domestic settings (addding dried herbs to low NSC forage for example or grow certain herbs/plants for them)

I agree with the first part. I have tested some of the native shrubs in the foothills that feral horses, deer and antelope are known to eat. They tend to be very deep rooted in the arid regions of the intermountain west, and they were much higher in trace minerals than any other local forage I have tested. For those of you terrified of iron (I'm not), the intermountain region is a very dusty place, and they were very high in iron from soil contamination. But I would not assume that you can achieve the same high minerals results even if you could get these shrubs to grow in wet, low altitude areas. The soils in wild horse country are not weathered like in other places. Trace mineral levels in plants have far more to do with the local soil than any inherent characteristic of the plant. This is covered in great detail in my CD: Soil Minerals- The basis of Nutrition. You cannot duplicate a wild horse diet unless you live in wild horse country and have 1000 acres per horse.

I choose to add this missing trace minerals in a ration balancer, so I KNOW what they are eating.
Katy

[BornToRide]

What if you fortified the soil and created similar conditions?

[Katy Watts]

What if you fortified the soil and created similar conditions?

Sometimes it can work. But you can't change your local climate so that those wild horse shrubs will grow there. They only grow under a narrow range of altitude, soil type and climate. If you are on the east coast you cannot duplicate the necessary conditions. The major reason why soil deep in the profile has higher trace minerals is because it is not subjected to weathering and leaching.

I have helped a few people try to optimize soil pH and add trace minerals, but often they need so much lime they can't afford it, or don't have machinery available to apply on a small acreage. Recently I wrote a fertilizer and lime program for some long term neglected pasture in a high rainfall area and it cost $2500 for 10 acres for one years worth. And I have to admit, it might take years of this program to get the soil where it needs to be after its gotten so acidic. WAY more cost effective to supplement animals, which is what cow producers found out a long time ago.
Katy

[Pookah]

I have an IR horse who has been well-managed for years, eating soaked but never-tested hay. He's in a boarding barn; changing hay is not an option, and the barn suits his and our needs so well otherwise that I wouldn't move him. I also have a Cushings pony, and I have found with both of them (a limited sample, I admit) that work is far more important to their health than anything I put in their mouths. Yes, they wear grazing muzzles, eat low starch pellets, etc. However, I can tell at a glance by their body condition how much work they are getting. As soon as I get busy and don't ride enough, I start seeing cresty necks, ribby but fat horses, etc. I would love to be able to keep both of them on perfect diets, but the reality is that getting my *ss to the barn to ride them probably makes more difference.

[BornToRide]

I have a client with an easy keeper Haflinger mare. The mare is not IR or Cushings but man, even on the soaked local hay, she will quickly develop fat pcokets around her tail when she's NOT in regular work! She's one easy going keeper mare ;)

[Katy Watts]

I agree that you have a far wider range of 'safer' feed if the horse is in regular exercise. I too can see changes with just 4-5 days without work, even on 9% NSC hay. We just had a couple days of bad storms, and now it's mud city everywhere, so will be a while longer before I can ride anywhere in this clay country. Sometimes exercise is not possible even if we have the time and desire. My 23 YO PPID/IR mare's arthritis has us on a walk only program. Her bad knee and her neck are enlarging at the same rate. We've got an appointment on Wed with a lameness specialist to talk about most cost effective options for treatment. I am also going to see if he will write an rx for metformin. A vet I correspond with has tried it on some horses that cannot exercise for one reason or another, and has had 3 bad IR horses really turn around. She said you can get it at Walmart for $20-25/month supply. Clinical trials have had mixed results, and I think its another of those things you just have to try and see if your individual horse is going to respond well.