Coffin injections done without consent...wwyd?

[onanotherthought]

I have a horse for sale that has been with a broker on consignment for a while now. Nice horse with a record, good xrays. I'm not sure why he hasn't sold, but it probably has something to do with her not really advertising him. (long story, won't go into THAT here).
I get an email last week in response to my question of why might he not be selling? Is there anything going on?
She responds that he is doing great, blah blah blah, and they injected his hocks, stifles, and coffin joints. WHAT?? I was never consulted in the matter. Never told if there was a soundness issue or something. This horse has good xrays. I responded asking why? And have heard nothing back other than it is routine for her to do in a jumper.
Is this even ok for a vet to inject a horse without an owner's consent??
Hocks, whatever...not as big a deal. Stifles...er, ok. But from all I've heard coffin injections are very risky and have a high incidence of lameness occurring as a result. When I told my farrier he nearly lost his mind.
Does this affect his value?
I'm really furious about this and not sure how to react/respond. Is this typical of a equine professional to just take liberties and have invasive vet work done on a horse that isn't theirs?
What would you do? besides get the horse the hell out of there.
Thanks!

[Rick Burten]

What does your contract with the broker say?

[EqTrainer]

"Is this typical of a equine professional to just take liberties and have invasive vet work done on a horse that isn't theirs?"

I can answer this part - NO. Or if it is, it shouldn't be.

[trubandloki]

What does your contract with the broker say?

I agree, this is a good question.

If you signed a contract allowing them to provide all necessary vet care then I would say they are doing just that, in their opinion.

[merrygoround]

What does your contract with the broker say?

I would still be outraged.

[Evalee Hunter]

Many veterinarians are accustomed to doing work as ordered by the trainer. For example, track vets - many owners barely know one end of the horse from the other, many horses are owned by upteen owners (how would you ever get consensus on work to be done when you have 100 partners involved in a horse)? Sorry, but I think it is routine for a vet who knows a trainer well to work on the horses in trainer's barn as requested by the trainer. Vet probably doesn't know or care which ones are owned by the trainer & which ones are syndicated or owned by other people.

I would be upset ONLY IF I had a specific clause in my contract prohibiting veterinary work without my consent/notification (except for life-threatening emergencies, of course). Otherwise, you implicitly agreed to this in advance.

[Druid Acres]

Just to add another wrinkle - does the broker also have riding students? Maybe your horse has been used for lessons and started to break down, especially if he was used for lots of jumping lessons. Sorry to give you more worries, but I've seen this situation in person. :(

Best of luck. I think I'd move the horse out of there.

[Simkie]

I would be upset ONLY IF I had a specific clause in my contract prohibiting veterinary work without my consent/notification (except for life-threatening emergencies, of course). Otherwise, you implicitly agreed to this in advance.

Agreed.

And I also believe that coffin joint injections are not any more dangerous or likely to cause lameness than any other joint injection.

[BornToRide]

I would be livid. That may just have ruined your chances of getting a good sale for this horse. I potential buyer might now question why the horse was injected and either reduce the price or pass all together.

I wonder what that brokers motives are. Does she want to keep the horse to herself? Is she using and abusing this horse physically (riding it incorrectly) for her own benefit that made the injections necessary?

You need to either get her to give you the money for this horse or get the horse out of there ASAP.

[ToN Farm]

I think it's very wrong. Who is paying for all these injections? Is it going to be tacked on to your commission. I would remove the horse asap.

[bort84]

Well, it completely depends on what type of place you've taken your horse to be sold. I know in the saddlebred world, many many show horse owners hardly know how to put on a saddle/bridle correctly, let alone diagnose lamenesses. They are the kind that wait out in the arena by the mounting block and have a perfectly clean and tacked up horse brought out for them. After the ride, they may give the horse a pat and a carrot while they watch you untack it = ) Then they drive off in their Porsche, haha.

In these kinds of barns, it's totally expected the trainer will do whatever vetting is necessary and just tack it onto the bill at the end of the month, no questions asked. Also, the vets in these types of barns RARELY if EVER speak to the owners. The trainers are their contact. They assume if the horse has been left in the trainer's care, the trainer is the one they should be listening to.

I've never really felt comfortable operating that way unless the owner has specifically said that's how they'd like it done. My grandmother is a longtime trainer and ALWAYS called a customer before having special (expensive) shoe jobs done or any non routine vetwork done because she just never felt right spending people's money. But not everyone operates this way. Especially in a big sale/show barn. This doesn't mean it's right, but it is often done that way. While many many owners couldn't care less, this practice does often ruffle certain owners feathers (and rightly so).

Anyway, in my current situation with my horse, yes, I'd be pissed. Especially because I've known too many trainers that feel a joint injection is routine vetwork to be done on any horse - even those that don't need it. Some types of injections need to be continued once started, etc.

But, you did send him out to be sold. In this situation, many brokers don't see or talk to the owners unless there's a sale likely to go through. So I'd look double close at your contract then chat with the broker. If you decide to keep your horse there, let him know that you wish to be consulted on these matters.

So, in my opinion, the situation isn't that surprising. I know a lot of people that just operate this way because of absentee owners who prefer it done that way. It seems very shocking to involved horse owners, but many many horse owners are not as involved in their horses' care as the people on this board... So have a chat with the broker, and then decide if you should keep your horse there in the future.

[BornToRide]

Let's not forget that we are talking about the well being of a horse here. That should be the first and foremost priority here and that includes consulting the owner about health issues!

[deltawave]

I think I'd be pretty upset, too.

On the one hand, if you send a horse to a broker you've probably agreed (hopefully on paper!) to entrust the animal to the care of the broker, including requisite vet work. Whether that vet work is necessary or not is a matter of discussion, which ideally should take place before the fact.

On the other hand, it is so very easy to shoot off an email or a phone call letting an owner/seller know that the horse is going to have some elective vet work done, just to give the owner/seller a chance to help decide if that is necessary or desired.

Another reason to get things in writing, in explicit detail, if your horse is going out of your care for a long time.

[BuddyRoo]

The fact that the person came right on out in an email stating that procedures had been done makes ME think that the person assumed she had carte blanche and didn't think anything of it.

Personally, I think that prophylactic IA injections are risky and stupid. Would I be pissed? You bet. But somehow, this person got the impression that they were to do with the horse as they saw fit. Perhaps it was a simple miscommunication of your expectations...or a misunderstanding of how this gal's place works. If the person was trying to screw you over, don't you think she would've kept that hush hush? And sure as heck not put it in writing so flippantly?

I would take this opportunity to review what your expectations and limitations are and be sure to get it all in writing.

As an aside...here's why I'm reading it this way...I recently moved to a new barn. There are a LOT of things that the BO organizes or just does....like setting up farrier appts, vet appointments, deworming, etc. I wanted to handle those things myself. There were several other requests that I had..mostly me asking permission to do X, Y or Z where I'd get looked at like I had three eyes.

Now I understand why. The MAJORITY of the people at the barn are totally hands off and leave it to the BO. I AM the oddball. Had I not specifically asked a lot of questions, my horses would've been double dewormed for example. I really do think that it's up to us to figure out what's going on in each environment we put our horses in. You just can't assume anything.

[lonewolf]

Hmmm, well, I guess, as others said, it depends on the contract.

It is possible that, when the horse was put into this person's care, you essentially gave them the right to manage the horse as they saw fit, including feed, shoeing, vet care, etc.

Many hunter/jumper barns do see periodic injections as just routine maintenance for many of their horses. It sounds like this person belongs to that school of thought. He or she almost certainly doesn't think of injections as 'invasive' or 'dangerous.' (I really don't think of them that way either, but that doesn't mean I'd want them done without my consent!). I don't worry much more about coffin injections than I do about hocks, other than giving them an extra day off for front feet.

Are you paying for these injections, or is the trainer? If you are paying, I definitely think that the trainer was way out of line to authorize this procedure without running it past you. If he or she is paying, I think that the trainer should have still told you, but to me that would indicate more of a 'transfer of responsibility' to the trainer, and therefore this might be easier to understand.

Probably time to have a talk with the trainer about what is and what is not ok. You don't seem too happy with the trainer's marketing ability either, and I'd be worried about that as well.

[2DogsFarm]

No matter what your contract with the broker may or may not address regarding veterinary care.
Did all this injecting happen in a day?
When did you check on your horse last?
As the owner it ultimately remains your responsibility to care for your horse unless you knowingly hand off that care.

Good luck with your horse - with that vet record I imagine any sale will now be compromised.

[Thomas_1]

It's wrong in my world and opinion. But you should have a contract that says what the agreement is.

If you haven't, then get the horse back and be more careful about where you leave him in future and ensure you've clear about what should and shouldn't be done with him.

[sid]

Yes, what does the contract say? Most contracts authorize "routine" veterinary care (immunizations, deworming, dentals, etc).

Did you sign away all your rights as to the health care protocals for your horse, beyond the above?

In most contracts "extraordinary" veterinary interventions (including surgery in a medical emergency) would need to be cleared with the owner.

Injecting joints is an elective and "extraordinary" procedure as it is invasive and not considered an emergency.

Sadly, perhaps your consignor barn is of the type that sees injecting joints as "rountine".

I'd be furious. But would have no right to be if the contract wasn't clear as to which party has the authority beyond routine care and I foolishly signed it. Not saying that you're foolish, but take a good look at that contract.

[Chall]

Never been in that situation. However, I have always wondered, if I sent a horse away to be sold haven't I disengaged myself from his care? Somehow it seems more understandable that BOs do things without asking if I have already decided to part ways with my animal.
On another note, I would hoof it over to the consignment barn and do a quick inspection. Make sure he is STILL IN GOOD CONDITION and MAKE SURE I AM NOT BEING BILLED (or having sale money reduced) for services that may or may not have been performed. Check it out.

[CosMonster]

I personally would be upset, and if I were to ever send a horse out that is why I would ensure the contract stipulated that only emergency veterinary care can be performed without my consent, and go over that verbally to make sure the trainer/broker understands that I am serious about that.

That said, I think whether that is common or not depends on your area and discipline. I have seen some circles where doing that sort of thing without consulting the owners is the norm, and some where it would never even be considered. I do agree with BuddyRoo that if the broker thought you would be upset she would not have been so upfront about it having been done.

Check your contract, check on your horse, and hopefully nothing bad will come of it. I don't like the practice of routinely injecting joints on all horses as a preventative or whatever but I've never heard of that injection being more dangerous than any other. I'll admit I'm not UTD on all the latest info regarding joint injections, however.

Sorry you have to deal with that.

[Daydream Believer]

I'd be mad as hell at both parties. Join injections...while to some are routine...are a very big deal IMO and not without some risk. I nearly lost a horse to EPM following routine hock injections from a vet who thought she was saving me money passing on xrays to diagnose arthritis...turns out what she saw was a minor case of EPM that blew up into a major case following the injection of steriods into his body. I never got that horse back again after that first attack and I'll never ever routinely inject a horse without a full workup proving that there is a valid reason to do so.

[lstevenson]

Wow. :no:

[onanotherthought]

I will try to answer everyone's questions. Contract says she can do routine vet work (worming, vaccines, coggins tests, health certs) as needed. States I will be contacted in case of emergency or lameness. So maybe she considered this routine??

I do think she is using him in lessons and allowing children/ammys to show him, probably charging them for it, and not kicking anything back to me.
She repeatedly has told me she loves him and would buy him herself if she could get one of hers sold.

As for going to see him...unfortunately he was already about 12 hours away, and I found out she moved him to her "friend's" barn which makes him now a 2 day straight through drive away. Not to mention I found this out by stumbling upon "friend's" website only to find MY horse on it.

I'm trying to arrange shipping to have him come back up here, but can't find an address and no one will answer my emails/phone calls.
Argh!!!

[Rick Burten]

What is the term of the contract with the broker. IOW, do you have the right to pick up your horse at any time? If so, beg, borrow or steal a trailer and go and get your horse yourself. Or find a friend or the like who has a truck and trailer and go with them to retrieve your horse.

If your contract exclueded the broker from using the horse for lessons, you may well have an actionable cause.

Regardless, you need to regain possession and control of your horse.

[sid]

Sounds like your contract is on your side. IA injections are not considered "routine", regardless of what the consignment barn may think. What they did is outrageous.

[grayarabpony]

Oy. Is she paying for the injections?

[Live2Jump]

Get him out of there. She is not doing you any favors.

If I was looking at a sale horse, I would walk away the second I heard that he was getting so many injections (regardless of if the trainer said they were just preventive). I'd think, wow, he must need a lot of maintenance to stay sound - who would spend that much on injections if the horse didn't need it? No thank you.

Plus, if he has been having some issues that she didn't tell you about - and she doesn't disclose these problems/injections to a buyer - then they take him home and he goes lame because he is no longer being maintained, you may have a lawsuit. :no:

No matter what the real story is, I'd be pretty pissed. About the large, unexpected, and unnecessary vet bill. About the fact that she may not be telling you something about your horse's soundness. About the fact that if she is telling the truth, she probably just hurt his chances of being sold...

Good luck with all of this, sorry to hear that you have been put in this position. Please keep us posted.

[Evalee Hunter]

I will try to answer everyone's questions. Contract says she can do routine vet work (worming, vaccines, coggins tests, health certs) as needed. States I will be contacted in case of emergency or lameness. So maybe she considered this routine?? . . .

I absolutely believe that your contract gives your agent the permission to order non-emergency vet care, which means that you gave her permission in advance to do joint injections. In this area (I don't know about the rest of the U.S.) joint injections are the "soup of the day" in hunter/jumper barns, necessary or not.

Lesson learned for the future. Time to quit being upset for this one.

[bambam]

As for going to see him...unfortunately he was already about 12 hours away, and I found out she moved him to her "friend's" barn which makes him now a 2 day straight through drive away. Not to mention I found this out by stumbling upon "friend's" website only to find MY horse on it.

I'm trying to arrange shipping to have him come back up here, but can't find an address and no one will answer my emails/phone calls.
Argh!!!
Based on this, I think coffin injections should be the least of your concerns :eek::eek: Personally, this would freak me out and have me showing up on her doorstep with a trailer insisting that she tell me where my horse is or I will call the police.

[War Admiral]

Based on this, I think coffin injections should be the least of your concerns :eek::eek: Personally, this would freak me out and have me showing up on her doorstep with a trailer insisting that she tell me where my horse is or I will call the police.

I agree with this...

[magnolia73]

You know, that's a hefty and unexpected bill. And, no not every HJ barn does joint injections like one would do vaccines. If it were, I'd expect "routine care- vacs, floating, joint maintenance" language. Vacs cost what- $200? tops? Those joint injections probably were $600-$800.... plus it can impact your horse's insurability. Many make exclusions based on joint injections. IE, injuries to his hocks, stifles and hooves may no longer be covered.

Moving your horse- totally not acceptable!

How much does a phone call or an email cost? Nothing! Get your horse back, now and stick them with the vet bill.

[Jealoushe]

I have a horse for sale that has been with a broker on consignment for a while now. Nice horse with a record, good xrays. I'm not sure why he hasn't sold, but it probably has something to do with her not really advertising him. (long story, won't go into THAT here).
I get an email last week in response to my question of why might he not be selling? Is there anything going on?
She responds that he is doing great, blah blah blah, and they injected his hocks, stifles, and coffin joints. WHAT?? I was never consulted in the matter. Never told if there was a soundness issue or something. This horse has good xrays. I responded asking why? And have heard nothing back other than it is routine for her to do in a jumper.
Is this even ok for a vet to inject a horse without an owner's consent??
Hocks, whatever...not as big a deal. Stifles...er, ok. But from all I've heard coffin injections are very risky and have a high incidence of lameness occurring as a result. When I told my farrier he nearly lost his mind.
Does this affect his value?
I'm really furious about this and not sure how to react/respond. Is this typical of a equine professional to just take liberties and have invasive vet work done on a horse that isn't theirs?
What would you do? besides get the horse the hell out of there.
Thanks!

WOW. I would FLIP....that is NOT OK.

[Hunter Mom]

Even if you have to rent a trailer from UHaul and drive there yourself, I'd get the horse out. If you don't know where he is, it may be time to get legal intervention. He is, after all, YOUR horse. You have a right to know where he is.

If she's using your horse for all sorts of things you didn't sign on for, etc., she's not doing you any favors. There are lots of honest people who will help you sell your horse, so why deal with this one? Since she's wanting to buy him herself, do you really think she's working to sell him?

[BornToRide]

Based on this, I think coffin injections should be the least of your concerns :eek::eek: Personally, this would freak me out and have me showing up on her doorstep with a trailer insisting that she tell me where my horse is or I will call the police.
OMG, BIG HUGE RED WARNING FLAG and totally agree with this as well and another example not to trust strangers with your animals!! Hope he's OK. And don't go alone. Take someone with you! Best wishes.

[BuddyRoo]

Wow...well that update changes things, doesn't it?


I think you're wise to go get your horse. Before he ends up one of the "lost" ones we read about each week on Off Course. Good heavens. Get him before we have to send out the COTH Dogs or the Crayola Posse.

[katarine]

Go get your horse. Today! Pack a bag, pack your cell phone and car charger for it, and GO. Now.
Screw the injections- common in some barns, just normal. Doesn't matter. She has no right to take that horse to another barn w/o your express permission. It's not a show, he moved. Not cool.

[Hampton Bay]

It sounds more like she has leased him to her "friend". I would bet she is making some kind of money off him and you just don't know about it yet.

Where in the country is he? Maybe someone on here could at least help you get him moved until you can arrange for transportation.

[EqTrainer]

Please go get your horse. I hope you have already left.

I didn't say much in my first post, I was in a hurry..

it is not routine to inject all those joints at one time. It can actually be quite dangerous. A lot of trainers are simply clueless about this stuff. If she is adding a little dex here and there on top of it, maybe some other things... you could have a huge problem. Hopefully not.

I have a sneaking suspicion tho' that everyone is right, that perhaps she has leased or even sold your horse to her friend.. and that maybe you are actually going to be or are being asked to pay for his injections after being sold, or perhaps another horse was done using your/his name.

[Pippigirl]

Based on this, I think coffin injections should be the least of your concerns :eek::eek: Personally, this would freak me out and have me showing up on her doorstep with a trailer insisting that she tell me where my horse is or I will call the police.

DITTO!!! This sounds like you are slowly losing your horse to her, you gotta go asap and get him back!

[Thomas_1]

So let's get this right:

You don't actually know where your horse is?
You don't even have an address for where you originally sent it?
You've never checked out where you sent it?
You've never been there because it's over 12 hours from you?
You "found" your horse on someone else's web site?
You've not been in direct contact since you "found" your horse on someone else's web site?

So what contact have you had and how do you know it's had joint injections? If you found it on a web site then how comes you don't have an address and phone number for where it is? How comes you've not been there?

If you remain vaguely interested in your horse then get off your butt and go check out where you sent him and find out what has actually happened to him.

[Gry2Yng]

No matter what your contract with the broker may or may not address regarding veterinary care.
Did all this injecting happen in a day?
When did you check on your horse last?
As the owner it ultimately remains your responsibility to care for your horse unless you knowingly hand off that care.

Good luck with your horse - with that vet record I imagine any sale will now be compromised.

I don't agree that injections will compromise the value of the horse. We would have to know a lot more about the horse, such as his age and use to make that determination. A lot of jumpers and eventers have their coffin joints routinely injected in their teens. That being said, here is a sample contract I have used when sending a horse out to be sold. With a reputable broker, I've had no problems.

I agree to accept and Consignee agrees to sell said horse for a minimum selling price of $x which includes commission fees to x Farm, unless other terms are negotiated and approved by both parties. It is agreed that Consignee shall receive all funds in excess of the minimum selling price.
Possession of the horse shall not be transferred to the Buyer until the minimum selling price is received by me and funds are cleared by my bank. Upon receipt of funds all cost and risk of transport of horse are borne by the Buyer.
If requested, board will be paid by me to Consignee in an amount not to exceed $x per day until the horse is sold or this agreement is terminated. Board includes grain, hay, stabling, blanketing, turnout, grooming, etc in accordance with industry practices for horses of this quality in order to maintain good condition.
Consignee is authorized to obtain necessary routine veterinary and farrier care at my cost and expense. Such costs may be billed to me directly. I should be consulted for authorization regarding any veterinary or farrier expense outside the routine, including IV, IA and IM injections. Consignee is authorized to act in my best interest and the best interest of the horse in the event of a veterinary emergency. Information regarding the horse’s insurance coverage is attached.
I should be consulted for authorization if the horse will be transported off the Consignee’s property for any reason other than a veterinary emergency.
The horse will be ridden and trained by Consignee or a competent rider employed by Consignee and Consignee may present and otherwise show the horse to potential buyers.
In the event the horse is not sold prior to x date the horse will be returned to me at my expense unless other terms are negotiated and approved by both parties. Consignee agrees to board and train horse under the terms of this agreement while I arrange for transportation.

[sdlbredfan]

Call the police and FBI now! ("As for going to see him...unfortunately he was already about 12 hours away, and I found out she moved him to her "friend's" barn which makes him now a 2 day straight through drive away. Not to mention I found this out by stumbling upon "friend's" website only to find MY horse on it. I'm trying to arrange shipping to have him come back up here, but can't find an address and no one will answer my emails/phone calls. "
What you describe is horse theft, theft by deception, and possibly (if money is going to broker for this transaction without being passed on to you) other crimes of interstate commerce, that is why I recommend FBI. You need to get a summons (or whatever it is called, I am not a lawyer so may not have the terminology right) served on the broker to the effect that the broker needs to pay to get the horse shipped back to you, now! Keep us posted, and be sure to 'out' the slimy shyster who did this to you so that no one with any common sense would ever want to do business with that broker again.

[CBoylen]

If you sent the horse to a sales/training barn it's pretty routine for the trainer to decide what sort of maintenance the horse needs in order to be at its most saleable. Those type of maintenance injections are not going to compromise any sales, and having the horse in top form is only going to make it more saleable, and may have been necessary to make it saleable at all.
I didn't catch if you said the horse was there on the cuff or not. If it is, then I'm not surprised that you weren't notified of the vetwork beforehand.

[Sebastian]

So let's get this right:

You don't actually know where your horse is?
You don't even have an address for where you originally sent it?
You've never checked out where you sent it?
You've never been there because it's over 12 hours from you?
You "found" your horse on someone else's web site?
You've not been in direct contact since you "found" your horse on someone else's web site?



I'm starting to think that telling "tall tales" on the internet is the new national pass time...

Seb :rolleyes:

[Gry2Yng]

If you sent the horse to a sales/training barn it's pretty routine for the trainer to decide what sort of maintenance the horse needs in order to be at its most saleable. Those type of maintenance injections are not going to compromise any sales, and having the horse in top form is only going to make it more saleable, and may have been necessary to make it saleable at all.
I didn't catch if you said the horse was there on the cuff or not. If it is, then I'm not surprised that you weren't notified of the vetwork beforehand.

Exactly.

[Rick Burten]

I'm starting to think that telling "tall tales" on the internet is the new national pass time...

The Brothers Grimm perhaps? LOL

[ToN Farm]

I'm trying to arrange shipping to have him come back up here, but can't find an address and no one will answer my emails/phone calls.
If you have a phone number, you can get the address. It shouldn't be too hard to find the location of the horse. I would drive up there in my car. Then find a shipper in that area to transport him back to your home base. I would be 'outing' this person big time. What an un-professional!