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Alterrain
Apr. 10, 2009, 05:09 PM
I saw this ad, for a rider position in my area: (NOT AN ADVERTISEMENT, I REMOVED ALL NAMES AND $$$. I am also a scared ammy with a 9-5 "real" job, so it's not for me.)

Rider wanted. (Its a BNT.) Private farm, 30 horses, hunters, jumpers and equitation. Must be under 20-30 years old, legal. Must be able to flat/ jump/ show 10 horses a day. Must be able to go to 48 shows/ year. Must have competed successfully as a junior (ribbons in all equitation finals mandatory, preferably on at least one NAYRC or Prix de States team.) Must have experience riding and showing in Europe. Must be able to get along well with two other long term female riders that have met above requirements. Housing, health ins. and car provided. May bring up to two sale horses at no cost. No grooming, teaching or paperwork is involved.

Does this seem like a lot to ask? or is this a fairly common resume for a 25 year old to have. I grew up at the local level, I am just wondering.

Pirateer
Apr. 10, 2009, 05:13 PM
I'd say that its not common but sounds like an amazing opportunity if you HAD the resume.

Then again, people who have that resume usually have opportunities way better than this.

WorthTheWait95
Apr. 10, 2009, 05:30 PM
Those are some high standards but I think the strangest thing is that they're advertising for it. Someone that meets that type of description would prob have no problem finding a position and their name is probably pretty well known to anyone looking for a rider already. Those kinds of positions are usually filled by word of mouth it seems. It's a dream job for anyone that just wants to ride though! No paperwork or lessons, just riding and showing!

Out of curiosity where was the ad placed? A national mag, a BB...?

Evalee Hunter
Apr. 10, 2009, 05:42 PM
My guess would be they already have someone BUT the person doesn't have a green card to work in this country (person could be British, European, whatever). In order to push ahead with the paperwork for them to work legally in this country, the employer has to prove that there is no U.S. citizen qualified, ready & desiring the job. I have seen close personal acquaintances go through this process, although NOT in the horse work area. Sometimes they are people who have a temporary work permit, are here & working & are outstanding. Now the employer wants them permanently.

I am not familiar with the systems of showing in other countries, so the person may not actually have ribboned in medals finals but perhaps something equivalent in another country. Or, perhaps, the person WAS in the U.S. during their teen years & did do equitation classes.

Another possibility is that the employer is committed by their own rules published in some sort of company policies manual to widely advertise/publish all job openings. In that case, if they have someone they want to hire, they will advertise almost "impossible" criteria so they can keep everything documented & show that there were no applicants that met the advertised criteria so, of course, they had to hire their best friend's daughter.

Ads that seem almost beyond difficult to meet usually fit in one of the two above categories in my experience.

GilbertsCreeksideAcres
Apr. 10, 2009, 05:49 PM
I'm curious as to how they are getting around laws that forbid employers to discriminate against potential employees based on age? If I were over 30, met the other requirements, and were looking for a job, I might be a tad miffed. And so might my lawyer.

But I don't meet ANY of the requirements, so I'm not miffed.

Cita
Apr. 10, 2009, 06:48 PM
My guess would be they already have someone BUT the person doesn't have a green card to work in this country (person could be British, European, whatever). In order to push ahead with the paperwork for them to work legally in this country, the employer has to prove that there is no U.S. citizen qualified, ready & desiring the job. I have seen close personal acquaintances go through this process, although NOT in the horse work area. Sometimes they are people who have a temporary work permit, are here & working & are outstanding. Now the employer wants them permanently.

Oh I bet you're on to something! The "ribbons in medal finals" PLUS "experience in Europe" seemed surprising.

As someone who's just been hired essentially under the table after a requisite sham "job search" (detailing my exact, specific qualifications which of course nobody else could match)... totally non-HR field, but still!

Ravencrest_Camp
Apr. 10, 2009, 06:53 PM
Seems to me like it is a lot to ask. Don't think anyone with all of that on their resume would be looking through ads. How many people are there out there that have ribboned in all the EQ finals AND have experience in Europe.

If this was just a way to get someone from Europe a green card, would they even meet the ad requirements? I would think that someone who was from Europe, they would not have shown in the NAYRC and shown in the EQ finals.

mvp
Apr. 10, 2009, 09:24 PM
I believe it is illegal to post an age limit for potential employees. If they can't get that right... sigh.

gg4918
Apr. 11, 2009, 10:02 AM
Ribbons in all eq finals...really not too many kids that can say that they have those. And if they do then they usually dont go around looking for a job like that.

Sparky
Apr. 11, 2009, 11:19 AM
My guess would be they already have someone BUT the person doesn't have a green card to work in this country (person could be British, European, whatever). In order to push ahead with the paperwork for them to work legally in this country, the employer has to prove that there is no U.S. citizen qualified, ready & desiring the job. I have seen close personal acquaintances go through this process, although NOT in the horse work area. Sometimes they are people who have a temporary work permit, are here & working & are outstanding. Now the employer wants them permanently.

I am not familiar with the systems of showing in other countries, so the person may not actually have ribboned in medals finals but perhaps something equivalent in another country. Or, perhaps, the person WAS in the U.S. during their teen years & did do equitation classes.

Another possibility is that the employer is committed by their own rules published in some sort of company policies manual to widely advertise/publish all job openings. In that case, if they have someone they want to hire, they will advertise almost "impossible" criteria so they can keep everything documented & show that there were no applicants that met the advertised criteria so, of course, they had to hire their best friend's daughter.

Ads that seem almost beyond difficult to meet usually fit in one of the two above categories in my experience.

Agree 100% with Evalee Hunter's analysis.

pony grandma
Apr. 11, 2009, 11:49 AM
Agree 100% with Evalee Hunter's analysis.

:yes: Like other jobs not HR it happens, it also happens in real estate. Years ago we went to go look at the most beautiful, perfect piece of land with an old farm house that was adorable. I fell in love with the place, we would have gone to the moon and back for this property. It was advertised by the estate's attorney and he would not return our phone calls, it was already presold to one of his friends and he had to go through the sham and pretense of advertising the property to satisfy his duty. :mad:

Alterrain
Apr. 11, 2009, 09:37 PM
Evalee Hunter you are genius. you are totally right.

sometimes I am so naive

:)

PonyPenny
Apr. 11, 2009, 11:18 PM
This happens alot in government jobs. The agency already has someone in mind for the position, but they are required by law to advertise it to the general public. They go through through the whole ruse of interviews, testing, etc., and then inform the outside applicants that they hired someone else. This would be the inhouse person. My husband and I both work for cities and we have seen this time and time again. The ad specified in the original post seems to be a similair scenario.

mvp
Apr. 12, 2009, 08:03 AM
At least end it by informing the posting source that they have violated federal law by posting a job with an age restriction. A couple people manipulating the world to suit their purposes might to well to be brought up short.

By the way, you are also not allowed to either require or ASK prospective employees about: marital status, religion, sexual preference. Others I'm missing?

Kementari
Apr. 12, 2009, 10:53 AM
I agree with Evalee Hunter and mvp (on their separate points). :yes:

You shouldn't ask about age (except to verify someone is legally allowed to work - so you can ask, "Are you over 16?" or whatever fits your state's child labour laws or "Are you over 18?" if that's legally required for the job, or what have you ), race, national origin/citizenship (you can ask if they are legally able to work in the US), marriage status, children/pregnancy, medical conditions or disabilities (you can ask if they can perform the job responsibilities), religion, union membership... I'm sure there are some I'm leaving out. From a federal perspective it is (unfortunately) OK to ask about sexual preference, though several states and localities have laws prohibiting it. Really if you'd like to avoid being sued you just shouldn't ask about things that have no bearing on the prospective employee's ability to do the job.

Of course, you CAN ask about any of those things; you just can't base any decisions on them. The tricky part is that if you ask if someone is married (for example) and then DON'T hire them, you've left yourself wide open for a lawsuit wherein they state they weren't hired due to their marital status. If you really AREN'T basing your decision on such criteria, then there is no reason to ask. If you ARE basing your decision on it, well, that's illegal - regardless of how you came by the info, by the way. It's just easier to prove you knew it and cared about it if you outright asked it in the interview - or the job ad.

And, of course, you can "discriminate" based on all sorts of things if it's a bona fide qualification. For example, if you are hiring summer camp counselors, you are absolutely allowed to discriminate against men when hiring the counselors who will be living with the girls. ;) If you are trying to claim bona fide qualification, though, you'd better think long and hard first and make sure it's not prejudice talking and is really, truly a qualification issue that you could prove in court. :yes:

[I am not a lawyer, and do not play one on TV. If either of those were the case, I'd be much richer. :lol: I am just very interested in the law and particularly employment law, as I know a few employment lawyers and help with hiring in the course of my job. But before you take any of my advice, do double check with a Real Lawyer (tm).]

RHdobes563
Apr. 12, 2009, 12:09 PM
This happens alot in government jobs. The agency already has someone in mind for the position, but they are required by law to advertise it to the general public. They go through through the whole ruse of interviews, testing, etc., and then inform the outside applicants that they hired someone else. This would be the inhouse person. My husband and I both work for cities and we have seen this time and time again. The ad specified in the original post seems to be a similair scenario.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Do we work for the same city? Despite suspecting that they had someone from the "outside" in mind, I applied for a much higher position early on in my employment. I scored 98.46% on the written test but flunked the interview. FLUNKED an INTERVIEW?!

In the end, they hired the person they wanted for the job but, in my opinion, have had reason to greatly regret that hiring. Oh, well. I don't make as much as I would have, but I like my current job much better.

RHdobes563
Apr. 12, 2009, 12:11 PM
At least end it by informing the posting source that they have violated federal law by posting a job with an age restriction. A couple people manipulating the world to suit their purposes might to well to be brought up short.

By the way, you are also not allowed to either require or ASK prospective employees about: marital status, religion, sexual preference. Others I'm missing?

Maybe, "Are you pregnant?" or "If you get pregnant, will you take 'extended' leave?" Not sure about these.

chukkerchild
Apr. 12, 2009, 01:51 PM
Haha, good luck finding someone under 20 who has ribboned in the medal finals, gone to Europe to have extensive riding experience, and still wants to have a 24/7 riding job and be forced to bring his/her horses only as SALE horses... I agree with the consensus that this is a fake ad for a position that already has someone very specific in mind.

Linny
Apr. 12, 2009, 06:33 PM
Hiring in the horse biz (both show/event/dressage etc and racing) is tricky and because of the various laws, many people end up working under the table and jobs are procured by word of mouth rather than public ads.
You can't "discriminate" based on marital status or pregnancy but if you are hiring someone to ride 5 horses a day and travel to 40 shows a year a "married with kids" applicant probably CANNOT do the work. (Flame suit on: I said probably, I'm sure there are exceptions!) The super talented rider that just got married at age 35 might really be hoping to start a family very soon, or then again she may not want kids at all. The hiring trainer can't be very direct in trying to find out how long he can count on her to work for him. (I worked years ago in retail and the sales managers were often glorified stock people, lots of physical work. A trainee found out she was pregnant but didn't tell management. She got promoted to sales manager and promptly announced that she was preggers and couldn't lift anything. Needless to say, they were not pleased with her!)
The nomadic nature of the horse world (showing and racing) makes it tough on people with families and when head trainers are hiring they need to very carefully "get at" the notion that this is as much a lifestyle as it is a job.
I understand why anti-discrimination laws are in effect but it puts the hiring party in a tricky spot. The fact is that women take maternity leave and women with physical jobs (like riding) have to take "pregnancy leave" too. Women with families are far more likely than men with families to take time off for child related things like sickness, school events etc.

Ravencrest_Camp
Apr. 13, 2009, 08:53 AM
Hiring in the horse biz (both show/event/dressage etc and racing) is tricky and because of the various laws, many people end up working under the table and jobs are procured by word of mouth rather than public ads.
You can't "discriminate" based on marital status or pregnancy but if you are hiring someone to ride 5 horses a day and travel to 40 shows a year a "married with kids" applicant probably CANNOT do the work. (Flame suit on: I said probably, I'm sure their are exceptions!) The super talented rider that just got married at age 35 might really be hoping to start a family very soon, or then again she may not want kids at all. The hiring trainer can't be very direct in trying to find out how long he can count on her to work for him. (I worked years ago in retail and the sales managers were often glorified stock people, lots of physical work. A trainee found out she was pregnant but didn't tell management. She got promoted to sales manager and promptly announced that she was preggers and couldn't lift anything. Needless to say, they were not pleased with her!)
The nomadic nature of the horse world (showing and racing) makes it tough on people with families and when head trainers are hiring they need to very carefully "get at" the notion that this is as much a lifestyle as it is a job.
I understand why anti-discrimination laws are in effect but it puts the hiring party in a tricky spot. The fact is that women take maternity leave and women with physical jobs (like riding) have to take "pregnancy leave" too. Women with families are far more likely than men with families to take time off for child related things like sickness, school events etc.

I read this post three times, and I am still shaking my head.

To take your arguement to its logical conclusion, only men should be hired, as then there is no chance of them getting pregnant.

dags
Apr. 13, 2009, 10:39 AM
I read this post three times, and I am still shaking my head.

To take your arguement to its logical conclusion, only men should be hired, as then there is no chance of them getting pregnant.

Not really what Linny was trying to say, I don't think. More along the lines of discrimination laws impeding upon the ability to hire the person YOU want for the job. I have to agree, pregnancy plans are not an attractive offer to bring to the table for any company, let alone the physical demands of a training assistant. As a boss this is certainly something I'd like to know before hiring, and think it is my right to consider whether someone ruled by the whims and time constraints of children would be the best fit for my company. For this current company it might work, but when I ran a barn? No way. So how do you legally feel this situation out in your applicant given the current laws? I think that is the point Linny meant to make, just something to consider . . . not quite as polarized as your assesment. More productive.

findeight
Apr. 13, 2009, 11:02 AM
Stating the age restriction in the ad is illegal. The reality is they can hire who they choose but they can't publish it as a standard. But is it under 20 or under 30? That strikes me as odd wording....and I just don't get how some are getting that whoever placed the ad has somebody who does not have a green card out of the wording in the ad??? Just said applicant needs one.

Otherwise, many of the requirements are in the ballpark for a top level barn looking for full time professional, high quality riders BUT, at this level, it's word of mouth and networking that fill the slot. Plus, anybody with European competition experience on top of US Medal ribbons would likely not be looking for a position as #3 rider on a road string...or any kind of hired help out of an ad:confused:.

This ad is a bit over the top and I'd bet it's not quite as good as it sounds or they would have them lined up to work for them, not need to place an ad to get an unknown.

I think the OP was asking about the qualifications and, although this ad seems to want BG to come work for them as that #3 rider on a road string and has a bit of a smell, the reality is a barn that competes level 6 thru GP/International that needs a rider so bad they have to advertise? They need somebody NOW and they cannot train one lacking in mileage.

Linny
Apr. 13, 2009, 11:03 PM
Dags, you got at my point. Many applicants for riding/training/teaching jobs are women and BM's or head trainers need to carefully find out what kind of constraints their personal life will place on their ability to work. I'm female and work full time. When my son is sick, or off from school or has a school event, I am the one taking time off from work about 90% of the time. I have about 5 immediate family members in the "human resources field" and I hear amazing stories but I also see real statistics.
Some jobs have flexibility, some bosses give you flexibility and others require a full out commitment. Hiring is a lengthy and annoying process for small businesses and unhiring (firing) someone is a minefield. The BM who hires someone who 2 month later announces that she's pregnant and can't ride, cannot muck and her feet hurt when she stands in the ring teaching for 3 hours has to be pretty careful about firing her and then has to start over.
It's not that women shouldn't hired but potential employers should have a right to ask questions that will get at how much impact their personal life will impact their work. (Same for male applicants as well.)

Evalee Hunter
Apr. 14, 2009, 01:29 PM
. . . . and I just don't get how some are getting that whoever placed the ad has somebody who does not have a green card out of the wording in the ad??? Just said applicant needs one. . . .

I think I was the first to suggest the "green card" explanation so I will try again to make it understandable to you.

Let us say you are an employer who hires someone from another country. Said someone has a temporary work permit for the U.S. Said someone turns out to be a perfect fit in your business & you want to get them a permanent work permit (green card).

There is a necessary, specified process for expediting getting an employee a green card and ONE part of the process is ADVERTISING the job of the temporary employee in order to show that there is no U.S. citizen currently qualified & desiring the job. Of course, the advertisement is written in a detailed manner with the qualifications (in so far as the employer can honestly make them) almost impossible to be met by anyone other than the current employee. If the temporary employee can be replaced with a U.S. citizen, then the employer must hire them preferentially & the temporary employee cannot get a green card.

If that is not clear, let me know & I will try again to explain. The only reason I know this is: I have had friends who got green cards through this process. (The friends happened to be information technology, not horses, but the process is the same. When the process got to the point that their job was advertised, they were very excited as they had almost reached the goal of getting a green card.)

Getting a green card can be a long & strange process. For example, if you come to this country as a teenager &, by the time your parents get their green cards you have passed your 21st birthday, you do NOT get a green card along with your parents. You have to do the process on your own ... which just might mean, even if you are brilliant, you work at a job that is "below you" (at least compensation-wise) for a while. I know of someone in that situation right now, again in the area of information technology. Oddly enough, I have never worked in that field myself.

Ravencrest_Camp
Apr. 14, 2009, 03:10 PM
I think I was the first to suggest the "green card" explanation so I will try again to make it understandable to you.

Let us say you are an employer who hires someone from another country. Said someone has a temporary work permit for the U.S. Said someone turns out to be a perfect fit in your business & you want to get them a permanent work permit (green card).

There is a necessary, specified process for expediting getting an employee a green card and ONE part of the process is ADVERTISING the job of the temporary employee in order to show that there is no U.S. citizen currently qualified & desiring the job. Of course, the advertisement is written in a detailed manner with the qualifications (in so far as the employer can honestly make them) almost impossible to be met by anyone other than the current employee. If the temporary employee can be replaced with a U.S. citizen, then the employer must hire them preferentially & the temporary employee cannot get a green card.

If that is not clear, let me know & I will try again to explain. The only reason I know this is: I have had friends who got green cards through this process. (The friends happened to be information technology, not horses, but the process is the same. When the process got to the point that their job was advertised, they were very excited as they had almost reached the goal of getting a green card.)

Getting a green card can be a long & strange process. For example, if you come to this country as a teenager &, by the time your parents get their green cards you have passed your 21st birthday, you do NOT get a green card along with your parents. You have to do the process on your own ... which just might mean, even if you are brilliant, you work at a job that is "below you" (at least compensation-wise) for a while. I know of someone in that situation right now, again in the area of information technology. Oddly enough, I have never worked in that field myself.

Even if this is a case of trying to get someone a green card, it seems to me like it would be hard for anyone to have the necessary qualifications.

How many people would have both experience in Europe and Big Eq ribbons? Is it common for Europeans to come to the US to show in the Medal Finals?

It just seems unlikely that even the person who they are trying to get the green card for, would meet the requirements of the job as it is advertised.

MHM
Apr. 14, 2009, 03:48 PM
Even if this is a case of trying to get someone a green card, it seems to me like it would be hard for anyone to have the necessary qualifications.

How many people would have both experience in Europe and Big Eq ribbons? Is it common for Europeans to come to the US to show in the Medal Finals?

It just seems unlikely that even the person who they are trying to get the green card for, would meet the requirements of the job as it is advertised.

My thoughts as well.

There are not too many who have actually gotten a ribbon at ALL the finals, so narrow that pool further with the European requirement, and it's hard to imagine somebody from another country fitting the bill.

I have seen similar "green card" ads before, just not for this exact slot.

Not to mention that most (not all, but most) kids with the financial resources to get a ribbon at every final would probably not need this job.

MILOUTE55
Apr. 14, 2009, 05:14 PM
I think I was the first to suggest the "green card" explanation so I will try again to make it understandable to you.

Let us say you are an employer who hires someone from another country. Said someone has a temporary work permit for the U.S. Said someone turns out to be a perfect fit in your business & you want to get them a permanent work permit (green card).

There is a necessary, specified process for expediting getting an employee a green card and ONE part of the process is ADVERTISING the job of the temporary employee in order to show that there is no U.S. citizen currently qualified & desiring the job. Of course, the advertisement is written in a detailed manner with the qualifications (in so far as the employer can honestly make them) almost impossible to be met by anyone other than the current employee. If the temporary employee can be replaced with a U.S. citizen, then the employer must hire them preferentially & the temporary employee cannot get a green card.

If that is not clear, let me know & I will try again to explain. The only reason I know this is: I have had friends who got green cards through this process. (The friends happened to be information technology, not horses, but the process is the same. When the process got to the point that their job was advertised, they were very excited as they had almost reached the goal of getting a green card.)

Getting a green card can be a long & strange process. For example, if you come to this country as a teenager &, by the time your parents get their green cards you have passed your 21st birthday, you do NOT get a green card along with your parents. You have to do the process on your own ... which just might mean, even if you are brilliant, you work at a job that is "below you" (at least compensation-wise) for a while. I know of someone in that situation right now, again in the area of information technology. Oddly enough, I have never worked in that field myself.


yes, that's exactly true. It can also be the case of someone wanting to sponsor an employee for a simple VISA. The requirements are the same.
And yes, getting a green card is a loooooooong and complicated process (not to mention VERY expensive). Lucky you who were born in the US! So far the only thing I'm allowed to is work and pay taxes here with my VISA....
The greencard is the dream of all VISA holders because with only a VISA you're always on a temporary situation so it's hard to make plans for the future! Hopefully my VISA is not too hard to renew every 3 years so I can't really complain...

superpony123
Apr. 14, 2009, 06:20 PM
Woah. the first few lines i read seemed reasonable, but then you see the ribbons in ALL equitation finals, and even EUROPE! i mean, to find someone who has ribbons in ALL the eq finals isnt easy, AND i bet you may find only a few out of that pool of riders who have shown in europe at all. but damn, what i'd give to show ten horses/day for free! with free housing and a car, wow! 48 shows/year? hey if it's free.. oh but wait i'd have to go to all the medal finals and show in europe. nope, wont happen :lol: not to me, at least.

they might have to lighten up their standards a bit.

Kementari
Apr. 14, 2009, 07:21 PM
The point is, if it is in fact a green card thing, there only has to be ONE person in the world who fits the criteria. In fact, they have written the ad in HOPES that NO American citizen/permanent resident will possess those particular attributes. :yes:

Catomine
Jan. 9, 2010, 06:58 AM
I've seen it a million times on here- what is a BNT?

lol.

*Liz*
Jan. 9, 2010, 07:10 AM
BNT = Big Name Trainer

JrHunterRider
Jan. 9, 2010, 08:03 AM
Evalee Hunter hit the nail on the head....

MHM
Jan. 9, 2010, 10:42 AM
Evalee Hunter hit the nail on the head....

Yes. I miss her. :cry:

Catomine
Jan. 9, 2010, 09:07 PM
BNT = Big Name Trainer

thankssss.

Also, I see 'DD' a lot. What is that?

Hi, I'm new to the site :) haha

SkipChange
Jan. 9, 2010, 09:51 PM
thankssss.

Also, I see 'DD' a lot. What is that?

Hi, I'm new to the site :) haha

I'm going to direct you to a link to a thread in the archives/reference section...it has all the COTH abbreviations!
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=142900
Should be very helpful :yes:

DD is Dear Daughter usually :)

Catomine
Jan. 10, 2010, 05:55 AM
I'm going to direct you to a link to a thread in the archives/reference section...it has all the COTH abbreviations!
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=142900
Should be very helpful :yes:

DD is Dear Daughter usually :)

Very helpful! and I somehow figured DD meant 'darling daughter' or something like that :lol: