New FEI CIC jog up rules? Silly or not?

[purplnurpl]

Frogive me if this topic has already been discussed.

So I just received important notes for the Greenwood CIC.

If you are riding in the CICs, note that there are new FEI 2009 dressage tests. A new FEI rules requires a "jog up" before dressage, there will be no "jog up" before stadium.

um...doesn't that take the ENTIRE POINT out of the jog?
Most everyone has a sound horse to start with. Not everyone has a sound horse after XC.

If this is the case I can run the CIC at Greenwood with my 80% sound horse.
Of course he'd be sound before the event started. But most likely off at the trot before SJ, though he could make it through SJ with no issues because trot is not required in Canter and Jump.

See my point?

So what gives?

[RiverBendPol]

Sure sounds idiotic to me. But then again, so is a CIC.

[purplnurpl]

well I thought one or the other was going to be gone.
I think it is the CCI that I heard would be discontinued.

So then for all CICs there will only be one jog? Once that above rule goes through and there is only a CIC I think they should still do two formal jogs.

[tx3dayeventer]

Maybe they switched it by accident?! It sure does seem pointless to have a job b4 dressage but not b4 show jumping :eek::confused:

ETA: ok so they didn't make a typing error. It really is just that stupid.

[vineyridge]

New para: 518.2- HORSE INSPECTION at all CIC competitions
“At all CIC competitions there must be an Official Horse Inspection, as per Article 518.1.2 for CCI’s. This must be published in the schedule, and may take place at an appointed time on the day before the 1st day of dressage, or early in the morning of the dressage day[s].
In either case, the procedure and arrangements must conform to ANNEX 1 – Horse Inspections a, b, c, etc. E.G. provision of a suitable firm and level surface, 40 -50 metres and at least 2 metres wide…….”Old rule. 2 CIC’s – exceptional alternative - Horse Inspection procedures
If the event is organised over one or two days, and in exceptional circumstances, and if agreed by the Technical Delegate, an alternative procedure [to the CCI inspection process in 518.1?] may be adopted.
2.1 Horse Inspection
One Horse Inspection must take place before the Dressage Test is completed, according to the same format as for CCIs. Every horse must be inspected by the Veterinary Delegate or the Associate Veterinarian with at least one Member of the Ground Jury or another FEI listed Judge. Should a second Inspection be organised, the Members of the panel should be consistent with the 1st Horse Inspection.
If there is any doubt about the horse’s fitness to compete, a member of the Ground Jury will make the final decision as to whether it can continue in the competition.
If a CCI and CIC competition are held together at the same venue, a horse that is not accepted at a CCI Horse Inspection cannot start in the CIC competition.The old rule isn't terribly clear. But the new rule is clear and does seem to make "the exceptional circumstances" of the old rule normal operating procedure even at 3 day CICs.

[Bobthehorse]

That seems pretty stupid. *imagines watching all the off horses go round stadium, and shudders*

[purplnurpl]

LMAO.

I like this:

If a CCI and CIC competition are held together at the same venue, a horse that is not accepted at a CCI Horse Inspection cannot start in the CIC competition.

[Foxygrl516]

That's what they did at the Fork last week. Jogged before dressage but not Sunday morning. We thought it was totally weird! At first, I was happy to get to sleep a few min later on Sunday and not have to braid for the jog, but it still just seemed wrong. I don't like it at all.

[Eventer13]

So much for the well-being of the horse being paramount.

[HT Mom]

Please remember your FEI Steward is in Cross Country and Show Jumping warm-up during a CIC monitoring your horses during this time. If they feel a horse is not sound, they will pull you aside and get the FEI vet over to check out the horse.

I worked with Sally O'Connor, the FEI Steward, at the Fork in both warm-ups and that is what she was monitoring the whole time, among other things....

[Jagged]

Please remember your FEI Steward is in Cross Country and Show Jumping warm-up during a CIC monitoring your horses during this time. If they feel a horse is not sound, they will pull you aside and get the FEI vet over to check out the horse.

I worked with Sally O'Connor, the FEI Steward, at the Fork in both warm-ups and that is what she was monitoring the whole time, among other things....

Exactly. I feel this is an "informal" jog... does the same thing. Unless someone just goes from walk to canter and the horse is only noticeably lame in the trot, but that is an 'exceptional circumstance' ;).

It seems more hassle than they need to deal with to actually take it out.

[purplnurpl]

Exactly. I feel this is an "informal" jog... does the same thing. Unless someone just goes from walk to canter and the horse is only noticeably lame in the trot, but that is an 'exceptional circumstance' ;).

It seems more hassle than they need to deal with to actually take it out.

You beat me to the punch.

Horses are always sound at the canter. Who needs to trot in SJ warm up?
lol.

That is interesting that the FEI Steward watches warm up.
OR
Maybe this is the FEIs way of helping us out a little bit with the zero drug tolerance.
If there is no formal jog trot those people with foot sore horses or any kind of 'next day soreness' will squeak in and the drug rules can stay as is. ; )

[HT Mom]

Not to get into too much of a debate here, but in the two warm-ups on Saturday for cross country and Sunday for Show Jumping, I do not remember a single horse that did not trot around before they started jumping. And when they first started jumping over the cross rails, most of them did it at a trot.

And if a horse is foot sore, wouldn't the horse show some lameness issues on landing after the very large jumps they are doing in warm-up?

[Liebe-ist-Krieg]

well that would explain the "surprise jog" at the Poplar CIC*...
we were all kind of going WTF when they announced at 1:00pm or so on thursday that there would be a jog at beginnning at 4:30 that afternoon.. there was nothing about this in the omnibus listing or in the program (which leads me to think the officials did not inform Donna and Gary till the last minute either). It almost caused some serious problems as a few competitors were not planning to get there in by that time period... I believe though that those that could not make it jogged out of order or maybe first thing that morning... It didn't really cause much a a problem for me but it was an unpleasant surprise as I did not find out till 2:30 and I still had to do my in barns and there was a passport issue... anyways, is there anyone that could inform us of the logic behind the rule?

[purplnurpl]

Not to get into too much of a debate here, but in the two warm-ups on Saturday for cross country and Sunday for Show Jumping, I do not remember a single horse that did not trot around before they started jumping. And when they first started jumping over the cross rails, most of them did it at a trot.

And if a horse is foot sore, wouldn't the horse show some lameness issues on landing after the very large jumps they are doing in warm-up?

I have no idea. I was just throwing that out there. I bet when some horses enter an arena with fences the magically perk up. ; )


anyways, is there anyone that could inform us of the logic behind the rule?

Either way it doesn't really concern me. lol. With my non competing horse and all.
But I was wondering what everyone thought logically...?
It just seemed odd.

[Liebe-ist-Krieg]

I have no idea. I was just throwing that out there. I bet when some horses enter an arena with fences the magically perk up. ; )

yes exactly! i remeber a show about a year ago where my boy was lame at the WALK coming out of his stall on saturday evening, my vet asked me to come down to the warm up on sunday morning tacked up and trot around for her and what do you know, he was showing off his best suspension and trotting around sound as can be.. she told us to go ahead and run the course (we were just doing training), as soon as adrenline from the run was gone, he was off again ( i felt horrible about running him, but later it turned out to be no big deal)..

yeah, i mean it is really not that big of a deal, i'm just curious to the logic as well...

[WakeRider]

at Poplar CIC we trotted in front of the FEI Vet immediately after the finish flags of cross country (show jumping was before cross country)

[Aharoni]

I have had a horse fail the jog but I bet under saddle(especially SJ) I could have masked it with my riding. It can be a very fine line between passing and failing especially back during the long format days. I think it's ridiculous not to jog before SJ.

[Jealoushe]

WOWWWWWWWWWW

Where is the logic!

This is stupidity...seriously

Also, horses aren't only "foot" sore when they are taken in the jog, some are back sore, leg sore, etc etc. This can all show up in a form of lameness when trotted on hard even surface.

Where in the warm up ring is the hard, even surface?

[fooler]

at Poplar CIC we trotted in front of the FEI Vet immediately after the finish flags of cross country (show jumping was before cross country)

That will catch some that are off. But often the lameness does not appear until the adrenalin is gone and the horse has 'cooled off'. That is why so many ice, poultice, massage, etc after X-C at the upper levels. Not to mention the walking & trots in the stabling area Sunday before the final inspection. With it removed, we may see more horses jumping lame, stopping or even breaking done in SJ. As someone said - this action does not keep the horse's welfare paramount.

FYI - USEF & FEI stewards are everywhere at upper level compeitions. Take a look at the USEF steward responsibilites in the rule book - they take on alot.

[RAyers]

Not to get into too much of a debate here, but in the two warm-ups on Saturday for cross country and Sunday for Show Jumping, I do not remember a single horse that did not trot around before they started jumping. And when they first started jumping over the cross rails, most of them did it at a trot.

And if a horse is foot sore, wouldn't the horse show some lameness issues on landing after the very large jumps they are doing in warm-up?


For every "eagle eyed" official, there are 10 competitors who know how to make a lame horse appear sound. I did the hunters long enough to know that the "jog for soundness" was a sham and how to look like we were warming up without showing lameness. I also have seen plenty of competitors amazingly make their horses sound even while being held in the jog up.

I do not believe that officials standing by the warm-up arena is any more effective to judging soundness than a formal jog-up. For example, there are times I don't trot to warm up. I will go straight to canter simply because my guy works better at that gait. At the same time I, when I did the jumpers we never trotted cross rails. we went straight to cantering small verticals and i still do this in eventing. Some horses warm up much better at the canter with no trot. There is no reason to assume that because a rider does not trot their horse the horse is lame.

[AppJumpr08]

I really think the FEI needs to leave the eventing to the eventers, and go elsewhere to write their rules.

[RiverBendPol]

I really think the FEI needs to leave the eventing to the eventers, and go elsewhere to write their rules.

Brilliant idea. What a concept.
Although I will say...years ago, a very upper level rider, famous and experienced and well known, had a horse in the CCI* at Bromont. The thing was LAME before the final jog up on Sunday morning-note: this was a real CCI*, complete full format, XC before SJ, the whole 9 yards, a real 3-day event...-So, when it was this person's turn to trot up for the ground jury, guess what, the horse was so NAUGHTY it just couldn't trot. It bounced along at the canter and going sideways and its person giggled and said in a loud voice, 'you naughty thing, please trot' all the while tickling it with the whip and making it bounce. Sure enough, the thing passed. Then cantered in to the show jumping arena. Jumped around. Never took a single trot step where anyone could see it. Hobbled back to stabling and guess what, retired, never heard from again. Idiot.

[NeverTime]

I asked one of the officials at The Fork about the logic of doing things this way, and this is what I was told:

Speaking specifically about CICs - not CCIs - she said most held overseas are done with show jumping before cross country, so the horses run cross-country and then go home, with no soundness check after the XC portion. The belief, apparently, was that the way we've been holding them, with XC first and then a jog between it and show-jumping, put Americans at a disadvantage with a greater chance of not completing because our horses were going through an additional step/opportunity-for-elimination that riders in Europe and elsewhere were not subject to. So the idea of doing things this way was to make it more fair, by eliminating that step.

Right or wrong, that's what I was told and that's also what I heard another rider explaining to people. So, fire away at that logic...

[EventerAJ]

I asked one of the officials at The Fork about the logic of doing things this way, and this is what I was told:

Speaking specifically about CICs - not CCIs - she said most held overseas are done with show jumping before cross country, so the horses run cross-country and then go home, with no soundness check after the XC portion. The belief, apparently, was that the way we've been holding them, with XC first and then a jog between it and show-jumping, put Americans at a disadvantage with a greater chance of not completing because our horses were going through an additional step/opportunity-for-elimination that riders in Europe and elsewhere were not subject to. So the idea of doing things this way was to make it more fair, by eliminating that step.

Right or wrong, that's what I was told and that's also what I heard another rider explaining to people. So, fire away at that logic...


Ok, let's level the playing field... equal-opportunity competitions for lame horses. :rolleyes:


I have groomed and competed at CICs, *, **, ***. There was no "jog" before dressage, just an in-barn check (sometimes very thorough and watched you jog... other times barely checked the markings on the coggins). For the events that had SJ last, there was the standard Sunday morning jog. For the events that ran xc last, there was a brief check up after the horse cooled out.

You can "get by" with the non-jog after xc. Unless your horse has a serious issue, the post-ride adrenaline can mask some unsoundness that would show up the next morning. I fully understand why organizers would choose to run the D/SJ/XC in that order. However, it doesn't do the competitors any good to avoid the Sunday jog in the traditional format. You have it at a CCI, why not prepare for it at a CIC?

Personally, I only want sound horses qualifying for CCIs, and championships. If the horse can't pass a jog at a CIC, why the heck should it run a three-day? (yes, yes, I know there are exceptions... but those are EXCEPTIONS, not rules)

Can we please, PLEASE overthrow the FEI and take our sport back?

[RAyers]

...
Can we please, PLEASE overthrow the FEI and take our sport back?

Some of us have been calling for that for years. ;)

Reed

[Gry2Yng]

For every "eagle eyed" official, there are 10 competitors who know how to make a lame horse appear sound. I did the hunters long enough to know that the "jog for soundness" was a sham and how to look like we were warming up without showing lameness. I also have seen plenty of competitors amazingly make their horses sound even while being held in the jog up.



It is an art unto itself. One that is extensively practiced and will now find additional uses and practitioners thanks to this new rule.

[miggyb]

[QUOTE=purplnurpl;4007326]

anyways, is there anyone that could inform us of the logic behind the rule?

[QUOTE]

I did one of these trot ups before dressage at Tonimbuk CIC (Australia) a few weeks ago. Although they check soundness they also check that you are presenting the correct horse for the competituion. Since its compulsory to have them microchipped it makes it really easy. My horse was scanned for his microchip and had the number compared to his rego and the markings on his rego compared to his actual markings. I do think it would be better to have a trot up before SJ though!

[Jealoushe]

I asked one of the officials at The Fork about the logic of doing things this way, and this is what I was told:

Speaking specifically about CICs - not CCIs - she said most held overseas are done with show jumping before cross country, so the horses run cross-country and then go home, with no soundness check after the XC portion. The belief, apparently, was that the way we've been holding them, with XC first and then a jog between it and show-jumping, put Americans at a disadvantage with a greater chance of not completing because our horses were going through an additional step/opportunity-for-elimination that riders in Europe and elsewhere were not subject to. So the idea of doing things this way was to make it more fair, by eliminating that step.

Right or wrong, that's what I was told and that's also what I heard another rider explaining to people. So, fire away at that logic...

I definitly would not say most are held SJ - then cross. Some maybe, but not the majority.

If that were the case, Europeans wouldn't have what it takes when they got to a CCI3* of 4* and they had to jog before stadium. Wouldn't it just be all these lame horses hwo have been slipping through the cracks? It's just not the case.

[NeverTime]

You may be right that it's total BS, but just to clarify again - the official was talking about CICs only. She was not saying that Europeans CCIs were held SJ before XC, so I imagine that they get all the same experience we do jogging their horses up at CCI* and CCI** before they get to *** and ****!

[colliemom]

Speaking specifically about CICs - not CCIs - she said most held overseas are done with show jumping before cross country, so the horses run cross-country and then go home, with no soundness check after the XC portion. ...


So, one more way they have gutted the very meaning of the sport, running Cross Country last. I'm not in favor of that for HT's although I can see the value of it from a practical (more entries) and safety (if you can't handle SJ, you'd better not go XC) aspects. But at the upper level CCI/CICs? The very definitions of the sport are gone.

[subk]

Not to get into too much of a debate here, but in the two warm-ups on Saturday for cross country and Sunday for Show Jumping, I do not remember a single horse that did not trot around before they started jumping. And when they first started jumping over the cross rails, most of them did it at a trot.
Trotting in a prepared surface with the horse on the bit can go a long way to mask an unsoundness that can be seen on a hard surface with the horse's head free and the horse coming directly to and from you in a straight line. Nefariousness aside, it really doesn't take any know-how, talent or even awareness that you maybe masking something in a warm up ring.