Eventing Dressage vs. Dressage Dressage ?

[NewbieEventer]

For those of you that take dressage lessons from someone other than your eventing coach....is there a difference in their methods? I'm thinking about going to a few clinics taught by traditional dressage riders. I've never taken lessons from anyone outside of eventing, and am curious about the differences between a classical dressage rider vs. eventer approach to dressage.

[Sebastian]

Honestly, there should not be a difference. The goals for the horse are the same.

Granted, Eventers aren't shooting for quite the same upper level goals, but how the horse goes up to that point should be the same.

I highly recommend "stepping outside the box".
Seb :)

[farrier]

Eventing is quasi -dressage, not real dressage. Eventers look forward to the cross country phase and few practice in depth. You don't get the lollypop until after the haircut, and than dressage is sometimes viewed as a necessary evil.

[evans36]

My coach (when I was taking lessons... gotta get a better job!) was a former prelim eventer who turned DQ when she got older because she got tired of the increased recovery time the body needs post-fall. She was riding PSG back then, so she definitely made the turn to bonafide dressage rider, and it was so funny to hear her talk about the difference in the 2 "dressages."

She used to say that when dressage judges hear that there's an eventing rider coming into the ring they just cover their faces.

Honestly in the interactions I've had with both worlds, I think that they are moving closer together. The amateurs in each sport at their best care about the horse and want to learn and get better at horse-rider communication. They demonstrate this care by making their horse do cool things (it's just that cool to one is a water complex, cool to the other is one-tempis). The extremes in both worlds to my thinking seem to differ in their focus - both love the horse and learning, but dressage is more the microcosm (each footfall counts) and eventing's mindset is more the macrocosm (I'll make it up in xc/stadium).

At the risk of stating the obvious, working with a "dressage" dressage rider will only make you better. Although for those of us who are a little more happy-go-lucky, it can be somewhat frustrating :) After re-reading that, I'm wondering if I need to get out the flame suit...

[subk]

Honestly, there should not be a difference. The goals for the horse are the same.
The goals are the same, but how you get there might not be the same.

Having taken dressage lessons from plenty of "dressage dressage" trainers I have found you will do better if you are working with one who understands and perhaps has experience with TBs. TBs tend to have a different work ethic and a bit more sensitivity than many of the WBs popular in dressage only. (And yes, I do realize there are hot WBs just like there are lazy TBs!) A big time trainer once summed it up for me by saying you lead a TB and push a WB. Start pushing on a hot, sensitive TB and you'll get trouble.

She used to say that when dressage judges hear that there's an eventing rider coming into the ring they just cover their faces.
Yeah, they like to say that, although I can't tell you how pissed all the DQs were years ago when Kelli Temple and Carl Boucart (upper level eventers) would show up at any dressage show in the Southeast and eat all those DQs for lunch.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Eventing is quasi -dressage, not real dressage. Eventers look forward to the cross country phase and few practice in depth. You don't get the lollypop until after the haircut, and than dressage is sometimes viewed as a necessary evil.


I'd say BS to this. Most event riders now a days ride with dressage trainers. The difference between the two sports is the horses. Dressage is a hell of a lot easier when you are not sitting on a fit for racing horse...and are sitting on horse bred to do dressage. Also, eventers can not afford to JUST work on dressage. You have to focus on conditioning, stadium jumping, xc jumping as well as dressage. Our horses need to be good at all three phases not just one. Also the goals at the higher levels are different....and so our horses are different (mentally as well as physically).

But the basics of the training triangle....and understanding dressage are the same.

I SUCK at dressage. It is my weakest phase. But guess what....even I've scored in the 70%+ range at 1st level in reg. dressage shows on lower level event horses. You would be hard pressed to tell who is an event rider at many dressage shows other than they are more likely sitting on a TB...but even then that isn't always the case and many event horses can be quite competitive dressage horses. But most will not move beyond 4th level since that is where the specialization of competing in dressage and dressage for eventing (at the highest levels) gets too different. But at 2nd level and below....you will see a hell of a lot of event riders who can be and are very competitive at a dressage show.


Bottom line....most serious event riders ride with a dressage trainer. It is important though to pick a dressage trainer who knows their stuff and works well with your type of horse (most event horses are very forward types).

[Viva]

I train with a Grand Prix DQ, and in my experience she's much better at nit-picking the little but crucial details. I can and do hold my own in either arena, and that's mainly from working with her. That said, I agree with SubK--you need someone who understands TBs and event riders, both our goals and our temperaments! If I pushed my prelim TB the way I pushed my 3rd level Dutch mare I'd be plastered all over the champlain valley. And she gets that no matter how cool my horse's half-pass gets, I still want to get the 6 minutes in the white box over with so I can go jump.
My trainer says all the time that she prefers teaching eventers to teaching the DQs--"You guys actually have a work ethic, you do what I tell you, and when something goes wrong you want to learn how to fix it, you don't blame your horse." :lol:

[merrygoround]

There is a difference. The dressage dressage rider shoud be focused solely on the slow steady progress of the horse through the levels. And their position that helps make that happen.

The event rider may be tempted to cut more corners (not that some bad d-d riders don't)in order to be dressage ready for the move up to a new level. They are also focusing on the skills required to successfully navigate that CC and stadium course.

It is hard to maintain the stretched down look of the d-d rider, when you are going to need to come up and develop a different posture to get over those fences. ;) :lol: :lol:

Been on both sides of the fence. ;)

[sch1star]

I would investigate the individual clinic and clinician in the same way that I would when considering any other type of clinic. Regardless of whether it's dressage or sj or xc or some combination, your background/style/horse/training program will match up better with some clinicians than with others.

I've found that I get a lot out of ex-eventer straight D trainers, but that may be my individual comfort level.

[joharavhf]

My trainer says all the time that she prefers teaching eventers to teaching the DQs--"You guys actually have a work ethic, you do what I tell you, and when something goes wrong you want to learn how to fix it, you don't blame your horse." :lol:

OMG. I am NOT trying to de-rail the thread....but......

There are a few DQs I know that are TERRIBLE about blaming EVERYTHING but themselves. Fuzzy Butt not going well? Test if for Lyme. Test it for EPSM. Get it a massage. Get it a chiro. Get the saddle adjusted 10 times in a year.

I am ALL about helping the horse doing the best job he can, but could it possibly be the RIDER'S FAULT???? NOPE. No way. Fuzzy Butt is a fancy-schmancy dressage horse - pampered to the GILS.

HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE.

[subk]

I've found that I get a lot out of ex-eventer straight D trainers, but that may be my individual comfort level.
My favorite dressage-dressage trainer is a woman who rides Grand Prix dressage, but earlier in her career rode Grand Prix jumpers!

[Couture TB]

At this point there really is not much difference. In the past yes, eventer's horses weren't asked to do dressage as much 'real dressage' type work. They were ridden correctly but they were not asked to look like 'real dressage' horses. Now the sport of eventing is asking the horse to be a 'real' dressage horse, a cross country horse, and a 'real' show jumper. :no: How much more are we going to ask of them?

[happyappy]

IMO there should be no difference, but I think dressage is subjective, so you will see differences from time to time. Also, judges have pet peves! My kid's dressage trainer has evented in the past and understands "eventers", and has coached many. She works very well with our TBX, and with my daughter as well. She tweaks and fine tunes my daughter's ride. She rides at the Grand Prix level, so it adds to the guidance and instruction she receives from her regular all around eventing coach. Her all around eventing coach works on many of these things with her as well, so she is getting double! She does not need this every week, but 1 to 2 times per month is very beneficial for fine tuning!

I will add this, my daughter competed in her Pony Club Dressage Rally this weekend. This was just straight dressage, and I felt the judging is a little tougher, as I think there were higher expectations. A friend of mine scribed for one of the judges, and when my daughter entered the ring for her T2 test, she forgot to stop at X. The judge's commment was "She must be an eventer". LOL! She was so focused and not used to stopping at X at the beginning she just went to the end and tracked right! Oh well.. she regrouped and had a wonderful ride with a 64.60% which is very respectable.

[Divine Comedy]

I was once told by a former trainer that eventers cannot use the aids from their seat as much as dressage riders. She said that dressage riders keep their leg off the horse completely and use the seat aids primarily, with the leg aids for emphasis. Obviously this wouldn't work for eventers because when we are up in a half seat on XC, we can't use our seat for half-halting so we use our leg to hand aids. So therefore, while we use our seat during dressage, we don't use it nearly as much as a dressage-dressage rider, and have our leg much more on.

Having said that, I have exactly zip experience with dressage-dressage trainers and have no dressage-dressage experience, so I could be extremely off base. I use my seat quite a bit myself in dressage.

:)

[snoopy]

Eventing is quasi -dressage, not real dressage. Eventers look forward to the cross country phase and few practice in depth. You don't get the lollypop until after the haircut, and than dressage is sometimes viewed as a necessary evil.


Wow, you have been asleep for the better part of 25 years!!!:confused:

[LexInVA]

Wow, you have been asleep for the better part of 25 years!!!:confused:

Knight Rider going off the air did have that effect on some people. There just wasn't much good on TV for years after that.

[allpurpose]

OMG. I am NOT trying to de-rail the thread....but......

There are a few DQs I know that are TERRIBLE about blaming EVERYTHING but themselves. Fuzzy Butt not going well? Test if for Lyme. Test it for EPSM. Get it a massage. Get it a chiro. Get the saddle adjusted 10 times in a year.

I am ALL about helping the horse doing the best job he can, but could it possibly be the RIDER'S FAULT???? NOPE. No way. Fuzzy Butt is a fancy-schmancy dressage horse - pampered to the GILS.

HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE.

Not to derail it further, but....I know PLENTY of eventers who do this as well! Chiro, message, saddle fitter, regular vet, leg vet, and animal communication professionals are wearing a path to our eventing barn door every week! Then there's the feed specialist, the acupuncturist, the 1st cutting guy, the 2nd cutting guy and don't forget the dentist! Eventers can be DQs too, only in our case it's EQ!:yes::yes:

[Shrunk "N" Da Wash]

Hmm... This is a tough subject IMO... There are to many if's, and's and but's. Ideally there should not be a difference; no shortcuts should be taken because you can jump higher:eek:, you should get all the same basics, you should have your horse going as well for the lvl of eventing test in comparison to the lvl of dressage-dressage test (training lvl eventing = First lvl Dressage) and you BETTER be sitting just as nice as a DQ!

I have found that my DQ coach has higher expectations and treats me like a dressage rider NOT an eventer. She doesn't give a whoot that my horse jumps and expects me to ride like a dressage rider not an eventer (she deals with hot tb's well because for a matter of fact she has shown tb's dressage). She throws me on her Grand Prix boy so I get the "feel" of what's it like to be on a high lvl dressage horse so I can strive to get my eventer as close to that as their physical capacity allows.

IMO the biggest difference in dressage to eventing dressage is that the horses lack the suspension and talent to do GP and or the riders lack the ambition to train there horse beyond the mandatory lvl required. :yes: (HOWEVER there are exceptions and other reasons:lol:)

[pegasusmom]

We have the best of both worlds - son rides with someone who has ridden around Rolex and now solely rides dressage - and has also produced Grand Prix horses. Our only problem now is getting him to stay in the country - tomorrow's lesson will be the first in about three months :).

[Blugal]

My coach worked with a very good German trainer when she was younger and as a result has a very good dressage foundation. When she went to work with a very good Olympic-level GP rider/trainer about 10 years ago, she said it didn't work out at all. She still completely respected the trainer; it was just that 'the program' emphasised much more submission, even in young horses because their path was to go to FEI dressage.

She felt both that it was too much submission for her horses to handle at that stage in their career, and that she didn't want them that submissive because they still needed independent thinking in SJ/XC. And I would say my coach generally expects quite a high level of submission from her horses, compared to many eventers, so that is saying something about the dressage trainer's program.

[technopony]

I don't think there is that much difference, except that what is competitive at an event may not be as competitive at a dressage show - it depends on the company. What the judges are looking for in horse and rider is the same. The dressage judges at the events I go to seem to be the same ones that judge straight dressage shows, and the ones I know personally are dressage riders and trainers, not eventers.
I ride a straight dressage horse and an event horse with the same dressage trainer, who is an FEI dressage rider. Throughness is the emphasis for both. The only difference is that I am satisfied with a lower level of performance from the event horse - after all, she lives for the xc and the jumping, which is why she is an event horse :)

[Couture TB]

My coach worked with a very good German trainer when she was younger and as a result has a very good dressage foundation. When she went to work with a very good Olympic-level GP rider/trainer about 10 years ago, she said it didn't work out at all. She still completely respected the trainer; it was just that 'the program' emphasised much more submission, even in young horses because their path was to go to FEI dressage.

She felt both that it was too much submission for her horses to handle at that stage in their career, and that she didn't want them that submissive because they still needed independent thinking in SJ/XC. And I would say my coach generally expects quite a high level of submission from her horses, compared to many eventers, so that is saying something about the dressage trainer's program.

Exactly. We need our horses to still be able to think for themselves when push comes to shove (ie is it safe to jump from this spot)

[RunForIt]

Yeah, they like to say that, although I can't tell you how pissed all the DQs were years ago when Kelli Temple and Carl Boucart (upper level eventers) would show up at any dressage show in the Southeast and eat all those DQs for lunch.

I loved watching Carl on this gorgeous dark bay mare that he evented, ride off with the Prix St. Georges championship at a huge show at the International Horse Park a few years back ... :D

[tlw]

It may also have to do with what level you are competing at. I have a very successful partnership at training level eventing (PHR National Champ, 8th on the USEA's leaderboard, etc.) and an almost equally successful partnership in "pure" dressage at 3d level (PHR Regional Champ, scores an mid 60's, etc.) - all on the same wonderful horse. At some point, the submission required for upper level dressage may become an issue for eventing but for most of us adult amateurs who will max out at training level (or perhaps at prelim) "real" dressage shouldn't be a problem. I, for one, like a horse who understands what a half halt is.

I don't notice that judges at real, recognized dressage shows score me differently than my pure dressage riding wife (but then I don't use a lime green saddle pad either as that might give me away!) :-)

[Badger]

There are a few differences:

(1) focus of training, with dressage riders primarily training dressage and perhaps mixing it with some hacks and occasional low jumping or cavaletti and event riders having to split their dressage training time with conditioning and with training for two different jumping stages...the straight dressage riders spend more time on dressage.

(2) selection of horses, though many can do both, horses selected as dressage horses and horses selected to be eventers may, as a group, have different strengths and weaknesses.

(3) competition regulations: where event horses are stuck in a small arena at horse trials, even at the upper levels, dressage horses move to a large arena after they pass the lowest levels—I would rather ride a third level test in a large arena than a prelim test in a small arena as the large arena gives a lot more time to prepare and lets you ride a big horse forward; dressage horses often get to warm-up in the competition arena before classes start, whereas event horses usually don't; dressage horses can blow a dressage test and go back in the arena and ride several more tests in the weekend whereas with event horses they have one all-or-nothing shot to get it right; dressage riders get to have a reader where event riders ride their tests from memory, etc. These sort of competition differences give more advantages to the dressage horse to put a good performance in on a given weekend, whereas the event horse has a few more challenges to overcome in the dressage phase.

The goals, the technique, the training scale is the same: dressage is dressage is dressage.

[poltroon]

At the lower levels, eventing dressage is actually more competitive than regular dressage, because you can easily find yourself in a division of 20-30 riders, some of whom are doing dressage way below their actual capability. If you want to be in the top ribbons after the dressage at an event through about Training level, you will need a score in the low to mid 70's, at least in California. A horse doing that well in regular dressage has probably moved up already.

There are good instructors and bad instructors, both in dressage and eventing. I would say that event trainers are more used to working with TBs and possibly more interested in the basics, like forward and straight, because they're not thinking so much about trying to move up the levels, but about perfecting work at training/first level for most students (and eventually, second and third for the I/A horses).

[Donkey]

At the lower levels, eventing dressage is actually more competitive than regular dressage, because you can easily find yourself in a division of 20-30 riders, some of whom are doing dressage way below their actual capability. If you want to be in the top ribbons after the dressage at an event through about Training level, you will need a score in the low to mid 70's, at least in California. A horse doing that well in regular dressage has probably moved up already.


So true. IME it's not the dressage that suffers from short cuts to move up (it's the SJ!)- you end up spending so much time developing the x-country skills and experience by the time you move up your dressage is very polished.

Wasn't the US BN champion a couple of years ago an FEI dressage pony turned low level eventer? Try competing against that!

I think you can find a great eventing dressage trainer in either world. I've done both but it really is up to the individual style, how you react to it and not so much the background.

IME, the eventer dressage coach helped me to be a more independent rider in that I could reproduce lesson results on my own - and this translated well to competition. With the dressage coach I got to sit on some fantastic horses and experience some really cool stuff that literally opened my eyes.

Also if you want coaching help at events (competitive edge), your best bet will probably be an event coach.

[NewbieEventer]

Thanks for all the thoughts/comments...it's been an interesting read for me :yes: I'm going to look for some dressage clinics to audit, so I can observe and learn.

[Jealoushe]

Knight Rider going off the air did have that effect on some people. There just wasn't much good on TV for years after that.

hahha oh my godddddd

When the eventers show up at the dressage shows in the area they always clean house, I'm so tired of hearing people say eventers don't do real dressage.

So dressage is only real when its PSG and above on a warmblood? Puleeeeze, many a DQ would be very upset to hear they weren't doing dressage when they are showing lower levels.

I board at a dressage barn, ride with a dressage coach. I'm thinking the dressage I do is "real".

[caffeinated]

I board at a dressage barn, ride with a dressage coach. I'm thinking the dressage I do is "real".

I have a dressage coat, does that count?

:D

[purplnurpl]

hahha oh my godddddd

When the eventers show up at the dressage shows in the area they always clean house, I'm so tired of hearing people say eventers don't do real dressage.



this is because we have mucho impulsion. Something that many pure dressage riders lack.
; )
Thank you horsie that runs fast and jumps big.

As for the seat and XC hands/legs thing I don't think I'm 100% on that bandwagon.
I still have too much to learn but I do know that my XC improved greatly when I started working piouettes and 1/2 pass. Those lateral moves are done totally off of weight in the saddle.
My horse turns easier and collects easier on XC now. All I have to do is shift my weight side to side or bring my shoulders back.

[evans36]

I think so much of it has to do with the actual trainer and person relationship as well. The moves are the same always - but to the OP, it's not so much about the moves they teach as how they teach them. I've taken a couple lessons with big name trainers who just don't explain things as well for the way MY brain works. They work wonders with other folks, their methods are good, but for some reason our brains don't work the same way.

Find someone who can ride and who can communicate to YOUR brain, and that's where you should be. You'll learn more there than worrying about if it's "dressage dressage" or "eventing dressage" - because there's always something to learn from a horse, no matter the mindset.

[lstevenson]

To me the real test would be to have some dressage and event riders exchange horses and try to ride a test. Lets see a DQ take a fit high strung TB who is ready to run and jump and get a good test out of him. ;) While I'm sure the eventer would be happy to ride a horse that was picked soley on his dressage rideability and talent instead of his ability to run and jump, and who is trained for it every day instead of just a few days a week.

I think eventing dressage trainers are much better at working with the fit, high strung mindset that often is found in good event horses (or develops more and more from speed work.)

[yellowbritches]

As others have mentioned, the true challenge in working with a pure dressage trainer is finding one who understands and can deal with what makes an event horse an event horse. A lot have a hard time adjusting to the "yay! I'm fit" and forward thinking horses. Others don't quite know what to do with the tension they can carry and how to break it loose. But others understand them and are often very, very good at getting the best out of them.

Funny thing is, in THIS area (NOVA/MD) I'd walk through fire to get a dressage lesson with Mara Dean (an EVENT rider) than any of the pure dressage trainers that I know in the area. Her dressage is far and away better. :yes:

[Vesper Sparrow]

Eventing is quasi -dressage, not real dressage. Eventers look forward to the cross country phase and few practice in depth. You don't get the lollypop until after the haircut, and than dressage is sometimes viewed as a necessary evil.

Of the juniors in my primarily eventing barn, I would say that almost all enjoy dressage, quite a few really love it and one has crossed over to dressage entirely. Everybody participates in the local (Bronze level) dressage schooling show series and many do well. Our coach has a foot in both worlds, which probably explains it.

[Jealoushe]

I have a dressage coat, does that count?

:D

Yes. :cool:

[Coyoteco]

This is a very interesting thread to me. I'm very interested to know if eventers use the same aids as dressage riders use. How are the aids modified from a dressage dressage horse to an eventing dressage horse? - at least what is the best use of aids?
Since being on the track, my mare was ridden for four months as a hunt horse, and then lived with someone who was intimidated by her so she didn't do much. I have her and thought from riding her that she knew a lot of dressage but had some gaps in her knowlege. From talking to the woman who fox-hunted her and whose family always owned her, they thought she was so smart (they thought she was extremely smart) that she was just figuring out what the dressage aids meant as I went along - and doing a good job of it.
I'm using dressage dressage aids as best I can but have really wondered how I should approach aids on xc with this mare. She's very forward.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

This is a very interesting thread to me. I'm very interested to know if eventers use the same aids as dressage riders use.


Yes...it is the same aids. There is NO difference. Only difference is the same as between two dressage riders. Every rider's aids are slightly different from one another....but otherwise...it is the same thing.

The fact that an event rider goes xc doesn't affect how you school a horse in dressage. My dressage trainer getting on my horses doesn't ride them differently because they are event horses ridden and trained by me! They respond and are trained to the same aids.

My horses are very tuned to my seat...but of course when I'm jumping, that isn't an aid I use much and what they are really tuned to is my weight....not really your "seat" as is true for dressage. Horses are far more sensitive that people give them credit for....You don't NEED your seat to influence your horse. When jumping, just turning my head in a different direction can directly influence a well trained and tuned horse....they can feel that difference (if they haven't been ruined)...just as they can feel you change your weight in your seat while doing dressage.



What is different is because event riders have to practice for three events....we are not always as EFFECTIVE with our dressage aids as we would like (obviously though some eventers are VERY effective and fantastic dressage riders). In addition, seeing some riders bouncing on their horse's backs (or bouncing their hands) at dressage shows tells me that issues with being effective are not unique to event riders...there are pleanty of pure dressage riders who struggle with it too ;)

[subk]

This is a very interesting thread to me. I'm very interested to know if eventers use the same aids as dressage riders use. How are the aids modified from a dressage dressage horse to an eventing dressage horse? - at least what is the best use of aids?
I might have to disagree a little with bfne. (I know, it might be a first!) When you do lateral work on a sensitive, hot TB your brain has to be thinking of how you "lead" him into the movement. Generally we'll displace slightly more weight in the direction were trying to go and the horse will step under himself to "catch" the balance. Now I don't ride many WB but I have been told by a well known trainer that on a horse that needs more pushing you can find yourself weighting the other seat bone because you need to push him into the lateral work. I spent part of a clinic with afore mentioned trainer playing with that idea and seeing which way each horse responded to the best. Not all horses were the same.

Not sure how that all plays with the "classic" concept, but there it is.

When jumping, just turning my head in a different direction can directly influence a well trained and tuned horse....they can feel that difference (if they haven't been ruined)...just as they can feel you change your weight in your seat while doing dressage.
Yeah, when you consider your head weighs about the same as a bowling ball it makes it more obvious that when you move it around it can send a pretty clear message!

The other thing that I would add is after spending some time in a big time dressage barn some of those WBs needed to be hit over the head with a 2x4 on occasion--metaphorically speaking. Some of the correction and riding I saw would have sent my TBs in to emotional therapy for 6 months. Those guys just kind of said "oh yeaah, I get it now" and a minute later were back to work like nothing had just happened. So I would say a different level of subtlety is needed with a TB.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

. Now I don't ride many WB but I have been told by a well known trainer that on a horse that needs more pushing you can find yourself weighting the other seat bone because you need to push him into the lateral work..


See that depends on your WB. At the barn I was at... most of the WB's where hotter and more sensitive than my TB event horses. As in feather triggers! It is all on the horse and who trains them I believe.

This farm had really fancy FEI level horses....and the average adult dressage rider (even ones supposedly riding at higher levels) couldn't ride one side of them because they were accustom to balancing off their hands and riding dull horses. (most good riders didn't have any issue whatsoever).

It wasn't the breed...it was the training. A lot of horses are dulled down so their owners can ride them. Not too different from your packer event horses.;)


ETA: My WB/cross is more sensitive to ride than my TBs (I have three horses right now...and the one TB mare is the easiest, least sensitive of the bunch-although she isn't insensitive)...and I've know many a TB that was a dead head and dull to the aids....again...it really depends on the horse.

[subk]

See that depends on your WB.
Of course! All I was saying was that when doing lateral work the sensitivity of the horse may influence the aid of which seat bone is weighted, meaning that there actually can be a difference in the aids and how they are applied.

[Coyoteco]

Thanks for the excellent and informative responses to my post in this thread. They cleared up a question that had sort of plagued me. I know what to do with that difference now. I do know there are differences in individual horses regardless of breed. My mare is forward, hot, sensitive, yet cooperative and smart - so we'll get along much better than she and her previous owner who did hated those characteristics.

[Speedy]

Well, I think opinions on this vary, depending on personal experience with this or that trainer in each discipline and it really comes down to the quality of the training. That said, the dressage purists that I know tend to rely more heavily on their seat, and they tend to use their leg more selectively.

I think there is also a big misconception about WBs that do dressage being insensitive and lacking impulsion compared to the TBs doing 'eventing dressge'. Upper level dressage horses, regardless of breed, are bundles of contained power. I am told that they feel as though they are 'on the edge' in a really great test (despite the fact that they look so composed to the casual observer). That is why at the upper levels of dressage, many riders struggle so much with the walk - they can't manage to get their horses to do it and its kind of a joke.

[Merle]

I haven't read the whole thread but I find working with a Grand Prix DQ has helped immensely. She's even commented that he'll learn certain movements quicker because he's not one of those "dumb-bloods". ;) Not putting any warmbloods down, that's for sure - I love them as well.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Well, I think opinions on this vary, depending on personal experience with this or that trainer in each discipline and it really comes down to the quality of the training. That said, the dressage purists that I know tend to rely more heavily on their seat, and they tend to use their leg more selectively.
.


They also use their leg differently. Not the heel or back of the calf.....but those are the exceptional dressage riders. Not joe/jane average.

[farrier]

While I have been sleeping for the last 25 yrs., I shod for Sally O'Connor, David's mother, and he could easily crossover to do dressage. She had that background and both rode 3,000 miles across America one summer. I listened while others complained about courses being too hard ( Camp Olympic ) back in the early 70"s and they found that dressage seperated the men from the boys. I learned to ride dressage from Becky Langwort after having 3 horses at Potomac Horse Center, for her student riders. I wanted to compliment their riding rather than just being packed around. Always heard that dressage was a feel and I thought that was BS, was I was wrong. I would see upper level riders event rider coming in for private lessons to hone their skills. Retina, who won at Essex, Culpepper and many other places was schooled by Phil Snoy's wife, who was is an advanced rider herself. Students from Bascule Farm would come in for private lessons and move up to higher scores. I took 3 riders from Potomac HC and they swept high point for the show and all their classes. Lou Thompson, past president of the AHA, commented that their horses stood out in a sea of mediocrity, (80 riders outside Middleburg, Va.) When I trook these girls elsewhere it was the samething, where they held their own. I would see the Wap"s Spots offspring, trained by Kathy E., Another upper level dressage trainer
and they left the other riders in their dust. Get yourselves some training With good instruction. Electric seats on TB's are not what your young riders need.

[Lincoln]

Bornfree and others are right on in terms of it being about the style of training and the type of horses as much as the discipline.

I will say that the biggest shock for me coming from upper-level dressage to eventing was how useful eventing horses are. They can cope. You can tie them to the trailer and walk away. They are more-or-less broke. When my eventing instructor says "whoa", she means freaking "STOP", not "ooze into collection from extension sometime before the next letter". I guess that biga## solid object right in front of you might have some influence on the "whoa/go when I tell you" factor.

It's funny, it's not the same thing as being off the leg. Good dressage horses are explosive off the leg, it's just that all that metal on your boots and in their mouths doesn't really mean that you're not going to end up in the rafters before coming to a square halt... someone back earlier in the thread talked about riding dressage tests right on the edge - oh yeah, that's the fun of it - the riding-the-motorcycle-around-your-living-room feeling ...
But it didn't translate in my experience into obedient (really) safe or useful in the sense of a horse you could foxhunt or take down the road or even necessarily get by the Big Scary Indoor Arena Door without drama.

A lot of fun though, to ride all that power and slide sideways, go forward and back, skip and go in little circles. What I love like a lot of the earlier posters are the multisport athletes that can do PSG dressage AND run big time xc. That's the bomb!

What I see in eventing dressage is a lot of nice, fit horses, being competently ridden, in aggregate more forward than the average Dressage ride. Sure, some are tense, and without all that big juicy movement the tension is more obvious. But, who's really relaxed out there except when it's all over?

[Equibrit]

Yeah, they like to say that, although I can't tell you how pissed all the DQs were years ago when Kelli Temple and Carl Boucart (upper level eventers) would show up at any dressage show in the Southeast and eat all those DQs for lunch.

As if !

[sch1star]

Sure, some are tense, and without all that big juicy movement the tension is more obvious. But, who's really relaxed out there except when it's all over?

Amen :winkgrin:

[LexInVA]

I think Dressage makes many people emotionally constipated.

[poltroon]

One thing that probably influences my view of trainers is that here in California we have a substantial number of professionals in both dressage and eventing who are descended in some fashion from Hilda Gurney's program. There's a certain stamp that they all carry, and it's fairly easy to move between them and get consistent coaching, even if they officially teach different disciplines.

[rabicon]

I'm newer to dressage, been riding it for about 1 1/2 years as well as my horse. Started under a dressage only trainer and she didn't know how to deal with a horse that wasn't naturally meant for dressage at the upper levels. My guy may get thru 2nd and that will be it for him and she didn't know how to deal with his attitude either. Now I train with a event coach and we are in the high 60's and low to mid 70's in our intro and we are working on the canter. She understands different horses better and how to deal with them. She understands better how to push him into the bit and not crank him down with draw reins and snatching. I love my trainer and the funniest thing is we score better at dressage only show than we do c/ts which makes me wonder if eventing is scored a little harder at the lower levels than dressage.

[Equibrit]

I think Dressage makes many people emotionally constipated.

Chicken/Egg vs Egg/Chicken !