Short rider legs, wide horse barrel. Help!

[evans36]

So my OTTB is extremely well-sprung (he's the old-fashioned type with big bones). When I was growing up in the hunters, I learned the more old-fashioned leg, with my toe turned out much farther than they do now. Then I took dressage to start eventing and learned to keep my toes pointing forward and really wrap my legs around the horse. I rode for a few months after purchasing him when I was pretty fit and did alright, but found it was harder to keep my leg position over his barrel. Then due to injury I couldn't ride for about 9 months.

Now, I can't seem to wrap my leg (which isn't the longest anyhow) around this horse's barrel. And, when I do, it causes me knee pain to the injury I just rehabbed. I find that I tend to pinch with my lower calf in an effort to keep my leg from sliding back. I have been worrying about my equitation as I shape back up from the knee injury... I don't want to mess up my muscle memory. I've ridden some other horses recently and find my leg sticks better on them, so I think it's got something to do with our combined conformation.

Anyone else have this problem? What did you do to fix it - or at least make it a little better? Granted, I'm not as fit as I could be, but I'm aware of correct equitation and I have been doing all the generally proscribed 2-point and no-stirrups work to build those muscles. Initially I thought it would go away, and it's gotten better, but it's still harder than I remember. Can I do anything else?

TIA :)

[roki143]

Sorry, no advice as I have the opposite problem (very, very long leg on smaller bodied OTTB), but had I have to say that the subject line conjured up images of Thewell Ponies! Good for a smile at least on this Tuesday afternoon! :D

[evans36]

hahaha sometimes I feel like that! I'm 5'5" on a good day and he's 17.1 with no shoes... and according to the weight tape at 1350 and only about a 4 right now on the bodyscale (we're working on that). Sometimes I feel like my legs stick straight out from the hip!

[sch1star]

evans is there a chance that while you were recuperating, the horse lost weight or otherwise changed shape?

I have a large pony who needs a wide tree - he was too fat last year but is now in good weight. Still takes the wide tree but suddenly I have a hard time getting my leg on him, and when I concentrate on it, it kills my knee - the bony almost-underside part.

In my case I'm also riding in a too-small saddle because it fits the pony. I'm figuring out that the combination of these two things, lost weight and rider saddle fit, are causing the knee pain.

Conformationally I know this isn't the same scenario you're facing - just throwing it out there as something to consider!

[mvp]

evans36-- You can't imagine the benefits that will come from your lay-up. You get to remodel your unfit body in a new way that will solve your problems. It would have been much harder had you tried when you were fit.

Here's the deal: Forward toes originate in the hip joint, nowhere lower. Dressage peeps know this and have the ideal exercise for it. When you get on, you pick one leg at a time off the saddle from your hip and rotate your whole leg forward. Imagine trying to get pigeon-toed or putting the inside edge of your knee cap on the saddle. From there, relax back down and pick up your stirrups.

When your ride this way, you will feel it in your hamstrings. That's how you know you are doing it right. Otherwise, it's very hard to feel what the the deep muscles surrounding your hip joint are doing. It's also hard to remodel these puppies when you are fit for riding because they are like postural muscles-- well conditioned for whatever position you asked them to hold all the time.

It can take some time before this new position becomes natural, but it will. Just as ballet dancers spend years on their hips' turn out, we have to spend some time creating strong, flexible hips that occupy a different position. But it's crucial for shorties like us, and once you get it, it lasts forever.

[evans36]

Ha, mvp - That's a really good observation about needing to get unfit to make it right - thanks!! I'll think of that next time I'm hurting in 2 point :)

I do realize that toe pointing direction starts in the hip (my dressage trainer taught me the same exercise you just described). It's not so much my femur that's the problem, it's the knee down. In order for my leg to be truly straight from the hip, my lower leg has difficulty staying on the barrel. My knee is pointed forward and so should my toe be, but when the toe is forward, the lower leg slides back. Does that make sense?

Then, when I *make* the leg stay straight, it hurts my knee injury. I realize that's something a physical therapist should address... I'm just wondering if it's a common problem for riders on wide-barrelled horses. I don't really want to pay to go see the doc if the answer is that I have to just take more advil because that's anatomy.

sch1star - that's actually really astute... i don't think it's the horse but we are riding in a different saddle that is less than ideal for me because it's more ideal for him... it has no thigh rolls but it does have a pencil knee roll, and I'm used to riding in a totally flat-flapped saddle before now. I wonder if the knee roll doesn't fit me correctly... I'll think about that next time I ride :) Thanks!

[mvp]

Well, that's a stumper.

I'm glad you benefitted from some good dressage advice. The other thing they do, I think, is mainly ride from their thighs. Especially in modern times where they reach for the stirrups with their toes, I think they don't want any lower leg on the horse unless to use it as an aid. When I ride my Wide Load, even in the two point, I sometimes think about doing this. (His natural state of being is dead sided. Sucks to be me.)

Anyhoo, it may also work for you to think about riding at the two point on the inside of your thigh. At the very least, as you straighten your hurt knee, you aren't asking it to bear quite the pounds of pressure per square inch that you would if you poured all your weight down through your heels. I know what I'm describing sounds deeply wrong and the road to an insecure position, but it's not in practice.

Also, the saddle's fit for you may be a big factor in your leg's position. On another thread "Saddles for Short Chicks" I'm asking if a too big saddle contributes to my lower leg swinging backward. I'll be curious to see what people think.

Thanks for the topic!

[evans36]

Anyhoo, it may also work for you to think about riding at the two point on the inside of your thigh. At the very least, as you straighten your hurt knee, you aren't asking it to bear quite the pounds of pressure per square inch that you would if you poured all your weight down through your heels. I know what I'm describing sounds deeply wrong and the road to an insecure position, but it's not in practice.


hahaha when I read this I think I actually gasped aloud and was like "BAD!"

But when you think about it it really makes sense - as long as you have good thigh muscles that you can depend on (which I will... eventually) and good balance. I think I wouldn't teach it to someone else, but honestly after taking lots of time off and using just the balance and muscle memory from a life of riding before, that's how I rode naturally when I was so unfit I shouldn't have been able to stay in the saddle.

On another topic - So when you ride, you don't try to "wrap your legs around the horse like a blanket?" My dressage instructor told me when I was learning to do the thigh trick, and then to think about pointing my toes into the horse's armpit, and wrapping my legs around the horse for stability instead of jabbing the weight into the heel. Is that wrong? It always did sortof seem like that was a way to create dead sides on a horse if you did it wrong... but I never really questioned because she was FEI and I was just a hunter (with crappy eq by then to boot because I had been riding so many greenies).

Yay for riding lessons over the internet!

[mvp]

Let that be your mantra: Less is more.

I'm lazy and cheap, so riding a horse had better be physically easy because I can walk on my own legs for less money.

That means that I try to find the position that takes the least amount of muscular effort to maintain. This is NOT how I was taught to ride with lots of standard yelling about gripping with my lower leg but not pinching with my knee.

I don't think about wrapping my legs around the horse. I think about melting onto him, or even the anatomical fact that I'm like an upside-down wish bone. If I just stay in the middle of him and use only the least amount of strength I need to get that done, I shouldn't need any special gripping to stay on. My eq is pretty good and I think that came from trying to stay balanced as well as riding from a relaxed thigh. I can add more thigh or leg or seat if I need it. It's great being able to choose! In fact, taking my leg OFF my slacker gelding unless I meant to ask for forward was key to curing his dead sides...sort of. He's just pure evil in a mellow horse disguise, that's all.

So this horse and watching long, lanky relaxed dressage people really taught me the beauty of Less is More. But again, you presently have the advantage of rebuilding your body in a way that changes your riding. Relaxation and balance may come easier to you now than it did when you were riding regularly. But one more thing: When you get tired, stop working on your seat. You will naturally start to "cheat" and that means building the wrong muscles.

So I'd suggest that you get balance first, and then strengthen your leg and thigh second.

[medical mike]

The fix is in the details of the injury and the rehab.

There are also some semantics that would need clarification.

And to be sure, forward toe (and thus foot position) have a significant hip joint component, but in sitting when the knees are flexed, the hamstrings can act as a rotator of the tibia along its long axis to either increase or decrease toe/foot position.

YOu can PM me or in public.

Regards,
Medical Mike
equestrian medical researcher
www.fitfocusedforward.us
soon to be "equicision.com"

[joharavhf]

You also might want to try those flexi-stirrups! I hadn't tried them up until recently and now I LOVE them. My knees always hurt after cranking the stirrups up for jumping. Now I can ride with short stirrups all day long with no pain!

[pooh]

OK, another short ride on wide horse, who is also a physical therapist!!! I deal with this all the time on my boy. But I have to tell you - when i rode in a saddle that actually fit me and was appropriate for my position - I found out I didn't need to try to "grip" but as another poster said - I actually melted down into the horse. I couldn't believe that riding could feel like that.
But unless you are planning on getting a new saddle you are going to have to look at what you are doing and try to figure out why. Medical Mike has the right idea about the hamstrings and rotation - especially if you are worrying / thinking about trying to pull your leg back - wrong idea - then you are engaging muscles you don't necessarily want. Doing alot of work to stretch your hip extensors so your leg naturally hangs back farther ( but I do have to tell you, when I was trying out an Albion Dressage saddle that was the first thing I noticed - I didn't have to work to get my leg back and under me).
Next - you have to realize that you don't have to "grip" to stay on - being short like you, I know subconsiously that I feel like I have to grab to feel safe and stay on - Really hard to convince yourself to relax down into the horse and allow your legs to just go around him - then again - back to the hip extensors - if they are tight ( and commonly they are) you are going to be trying to pull them back.
If your horse is quiet - you can also do pendulum swings at the walk to allow your hip to stretch back, pulling your leg away and letting it slowly / gently come to rest at the horses side.
With jumping type activities - standing up in the stirrups to work on trunk balance and holding stability, then lowering into two point but maintaining the "non pinch"that you had to do to stand up. Remembering to sit more like you are "peeing in the woods" the gripping with your knees.
Those are some things that I use to help myself out - but muscle re training takes a long time and lots of practice!

[nightmoves]

The problem I have with my short legs and extremely large barreled horse is that my leg slips back. Doesn't happen on any other horses I ride just on him. I have to really pay attention to where my leg is whenever I ride him.

[Couture TB]

The problem I have with my short legs and extremely large barreled horse is that my leg slips back. Doesn't happen on any other horses I ride just on him. I have to really pay attention to where my leg is whenever I ride him.

Ok so I am 5'3 with really really short legs and almost no space between my ribs and hips, ankle that has had multiple surgeries, bad knees due to tendons that if I don't stay in constant shape my kneecaps pop out (can you say not breeding quality :lol:) I have ridden horses with slab sides (preffered) and larger horses that umm spread me quite a bit. I am currently doing rehab from treatment for nerological disorder (advanced lymes) and I have found my best friend for getting everything back in line is my iGallop. Sometimes I use it with just my saddle over a non slip thing other times my saddle on a LARGE pillow (on non slip thing) with non slip thing between saddle and pad, to make it seem like a large sided horse. Boy is it helping! No impact, no suffering on the horse's part, and best of all I can do it while watching my horse clinic DVD's.

[mvp]

Medical Mike and Pooh-- Thanks so much! Y'all have helped me immensely.

To the OP and clarifying my earlier posts.

I said that when you had your whole leg facing forward from the hip, you would feel it in your hamstrings. Those guys help explain why: If i have it right, those muscles don't just flex the knee along its one axis. So when I ride correctly, I feel it in the lower third of my hams. If I get tired, that sensation of tension-a tad of pain-heavy spreads up, but it's never about the top third of the muscle body.

I also don't actively think about flexing these. They seem to tighten and relax during different phases of the stride in, say, the sitting trot, without my say so. If I turn femur forward from the hip, this happens "for free."

The description of hip extensors also helps. I don't "get" hip anatomy because, knock on wood, I have never had a body that demanded intensive study of that joint. It seems complicated because of the hip's spectacular range of motion. Anyhoo, I ride on that triangle of bone formed by the back of the pelvis we lay-people call the sitting bone and the pubis. When I do that, with my conformation and that of a saddle that works for me, I think my hip might be "extended" in the way these pro-anatomists mean.

Apparently, strong hip extensors are a good time. I think flexibility and relaxation probably comes from getting those puppies strong and then learning enough body awareness to put the rest of your body in a position that allows these muscles to contract and extend with the horse.

I can't control all this, or even feel it, so I work on the macroscopic stuff-- leg position, sensations in muscles and even skin that I can feel.

Sorry for the amateur anatomy and novella post.

[evans36]

OK, so I rode yesterday and tried to do what you were talking about, mvp - the whole melting down thing. Actually, I was cantering and just thought about taking my leg totally off the horse (like even stretching out and away) and making my seat just stay on - it was scary!! I mean, it felt really cool, but I definitely don't have the muscle to stay in the saddle like that, much less even to think about practicing at the trot. It was really cool and made me think that maybe I am worrying too much about Eq (thank you, childhood hunter training!) and less about real mechanics. When I was doing dressage pretty seriously, I did start to get muscle cuts kindof over my hips - I think those are the hip flexor muscles that you guys are discussing. I guess I need to be doing more to exercise those than my inner-thigh muscles.

Medical Mike - the injury is not one that 2 orthos or phys therapists could pinpoint. Basically a horse kicked me on the knee. The inside upper edge of the right kneecap HURT. MRIs and x-rays all clear. Of course, i didn't do either of those until after the swelling went down and it had been about 6 weeks and advil stopped working. The ortho and PT thought it was patellofemoral syndrome, and I did weeeeks of PT for that to no avail. Had a cortisone intra-articular shot that actually made the problem worse - I occasionally still have an ache on the outside of my knee where the needle went in, although I know the shot was done correctly. Basically after about 12 weeks, the ortho said he was stumped and to just quit everything but necessary movement on the knee. Which I did for 2 months. Then when I came back, it wasn't really bothering me any more. He said then that he thought it was the plaica (sp?) band that was inflamed, that scoping it to clean up was an option but that I should try to just use it and see what happened because I shouldn't have surgery unless I really needed it. Basically I have brought myself back slowly and it still bothers me on days when i work really hard, when I wear high heels, and when I ride this horse for a while. Haven't been back to the doc - still paying PT bills. Trying not to go unless I have to.

The more I read these posts, the more I think saddle fit is a big possibility. The one problem I've had with the saddle is that I keep having to put my knee "behind" the pencil roll. I have always ridden in saddles with just plain flaps - prix de nations types - and love them, but this was a handmedown that fits the horse and is safe while I save to afford a better saddle. My other saddle is too wide for him, and he gets rubs when I try to fix it with a mattes correction pad. The saddle could very well be responsible for the issues - from looking at it more clearly yesterday I think perhaps it puts me in a chair seat and I am overcompensating? Also, I never thought it would be possible that my short legs would need a more forward flap than a normal saddle - but I have dropped the stirrups some and that has helped with the knee. I think it's also possible that I may need to break down and get knee rolls on the next saddle for extra padding on the knee, since the injury is on the inside upper part - right where it touches the saddle.

I know that is WAY WAY long, but I would really love to hear any other thoughts you guys have - and tribulations of other short riders who have the same addiction to big-bodied horses that I do... it's not healthy :)

[medical mike]

As you were kicked on the knee.....

Both are pain syndromes.....
Complex regional pain syndrome......not very likely as your pain has not gotten worse and tends to maintain a range and you report no odd changes in skin sensation/color

or

there is a little branch of a nerve that goes to the area you are describing. It is irritated by altered kneecap mechanics......

Plica is certainly possible.

More Q's:
Scale of 0-10- pain range is now.........w & w/o activity?

Have you tried any exercises on your own to see if there is a specific one that irritates the knee cap/increases pain? What ones.....

Do you have trouble standing on that leg? Notice if your knee tends to point toward the other one or move inside if you stand on it? Are you "knocked kneed" to a degree?


IMO...
The wrapped leg, mechanically is a balance of ab/adduction in Neutral hip rotation with the foot pointing in the direction the parts above it, put it. It is moving the entire lower extremity as a unit in a squeezing motion. The horse dictates whether you add more hip extension for thigh or hamstring for calf (go button, of which there are three possible ways to do this).

Let your knees come off the saddle. That is better for your knee anyway.

Let your foot go where it wants, for now. The tibial internal rotation to make the foot point forward in combination with knee flexion angle sounds like it could be increasing compression on that injured part of the joint.

Regards,
Medical Mike
equestrian medical researcher
www.fitfocusedforward.us
soon to be equicision.com

[evans36]

I let my legs just go slack. I definitely felt kindof scary loose, but it was a different feeling when I could focus more on softening the hip, knee, ankle and back than heels pushed down and back and whole inside thigh engaged against the saddle. We had a great ride (more just that my horse was awesome than a huge breakthrough on my part...) and it made me wonder if riding like that made my horse any happier. He picked up the left lead himself after a few fences when we were headed in that direction, which is his bad side (he's coming back into work too... chiro visits and joint supps, etc) and we haven't cantered on that lead really since coming back into work. So it's definitely making me wonder if that softness in my riding had something to do with his behavior! I'm going to keep at it - although my ego was definitely sized back down at the end when I got excited and tried about 3 strides of sitting trot - definitely not there yet!

I don't have the flexistirrups, but I do have the MDC comforts, and they have made a big difference!

So another question - like I mentioned, we're both coming back into work, so my real focus has just been to get us both fit and supple again, rather than to work "dressage" or "jumping." I've been riding in a modified jumping stance (stirrups a little longer than I would normally) because that's the kind of saddle I have right now. I'm saving for a dressage saddle, but right now making do. When you are giving this advice, is there a type of equitation that you had in mind, to all the posters? I'd be intrigued to hear how you think that the shorter vs longer stirrups and forward vs deep seat affect all of the hamstring/hip mechanics I'm learning about.

Finally - exercises (besides the igallop - wish I could afford one of those!) to really focus in on the hip flexors to get them more supple and lengthened for riding? Anything I can do to maximize my time at the gym for riding benefit!! :lol: