Any hope getting this horse solid to tie?

[Summernyt]

One of my horses sets back if she gets scared. It's like a switch flips in her brain and she panics. If she gets scared and feels the pressure on the lead she will flip herself over and flop around if the lead or halter doesn't break. If it does break, she just steps back a yard or two and stands there, doesn't go anywhere once she's away from the restraint. She will stand tied if she's not agitated for grooming or baths, but I could never depend on it enough to leave her, say, tied to the trailer on a trail ride. I've taught her to ground tie. She is more relaxed using a Blocker Tie ring, but pulls the lead through it after awhile.

Sad history: she used to be good about being tied and would yield to the pressure of the lead. Now she goes back away from it. This situation is my fault because years ago at the end of a nice trail ride I ungirthed her, forgetting the lead rope was tied on to the saddle (I led her down the hill to the trail and tied up the lead while riding). She shook herself all over the way horses do sometimes and the saddle fell off underneath her, basically tied to her head. She took off, dragging my nice black custom saddle around the arena about 10 times, thinking it was chasing her. I remember thinking ay yay yay am I going to have some baggage to deal with from this... Eventually she wore herself out, but she's never been solid to tie after that and gets panicky when girthed up. (Don't beat me up about it, I've already done that and share the story so others might learn from it.)

This is a 10 y.o. intelligent, in-your-pocket Andalusian, a sensitive gal, very flexible and light, wants to please, loves people. I've almost given up on fixing this, because I know that panic is "in there". Some people have told me just to deal with it by never tying her, that she will never be solid now. Not the optimal solution, but maybe realistic.

It's easier to deal with a bossy attitude than fear, I think. Maybe someone has some new ideas for me...

[Shadow14]

I would tie this girl well and let her figure it out. Properly tied is withers high and abut one arm length of lead rope. I would also use a
neck rope. It is a strong soft rope that goes around the neck and through the halter so all pull is on the rope and nothing on the halter although the halter keeps the horse aligned.|
There are two ways to give her a soft tie. One is a high line. A good strong rope tied between 2 tress and
with a loop in the center to tie too. This has give and no horse can break it and yet the rope has give. A kneck rope and a high line prevents her from getting hurt even if she throws herself.
Another way is a good inner tube folded in half and tied to something solid and the neck rope attached to this.
Again I would not tie by a halter but by a neck rope.
Tied like this she can not break free, the high line or inner tube offers give and just leave her tied and let her work it out.
She is basically a menace if you can not tie her.
I had a lady come to my barn to ride with me that had the same problem and while saddling broke the lead line. I toke a neck line and tied her to the back corner of her trailer. Sure enough the mare hit the rope really hard and actually slide the back of the trialer about a foot but never again did she break loose.
I live in amish country and every single amishman uses a neck rope, every one and at the church you can see over 100 horse all tied securely with neck ropes
Rio is/always wear a neck rope when tied, always and I have never owned anything but a good tier
http://i40.tinypic.com/xgfms2.jpg

[Shadow14]

A long time ago I had to break a number of older horses to tie. I did this quickly, and with a neck rope of about 1 inch diameter and snubbing post. I know poeple just don't have snubbing posts but we did. It is a solid hydro post in the middle of a pen, a good solid post. One by one I took a horse with the neck rope and take the horse to the post, take a couple of loops around the the post , hold the end tightly and yell at the horse causing them to hit the end as hard as they could. I did this a couple of times and by then the horse just danced around and never tried again in any way to break loose. These all became great solid tiers. They fought, they lost and never agian tried.
For your girl I would make a good solid place to tie her and then dialy let her work it out. The more she fights the more she learns that she can not get loose.
A neck rope is a long rope, 10 or 12 feet long, large diameter, soft cotton with a heavy duty snap in one end and a heavy steel ring knotted a few feet back from the snap at what fits well around her neck.

[Sithly]

http://theclip.info/

Try this. It works similar to the Blocker, but you can tie a quick-release knot in the rope about a foot or two down from the clip. That way you get enough give to diffuse the pressure, but not so much that she pulls the rope through.

The product won't "cure" her, but it may make her safer to tie under controlled circumstances. Unfortunately, I think once that panic switch is flipped, there's no flipping it back. I've seen problem horses become much more reliable over time, but they always have it in them.

[katarine]

I called the backhoe to bury a 3 YO who hit the end of a rope halter & lead, freaked, leaped forward, and brained himself on said tree. Now I love unbreakable headgear but teach them to yield instantly and calmly to poll pressure, folks. Tying hard and fast to an inner tube is fine but it better be to a very stout, high limb they can't possibly slam into in a panic.

These horse should learn from simple ground work to YIELD to poll pressure, now, first. That saves so many headaches later.

Do a ton of simple groundwork til the weight of your finger in her chin strap lowers her poll and her nose goes to the ground. Horses that yield w/o a second thought, don't sit back.

You can train her to respect that Blocker Tie Ring. It will take time and effort but she can learn to leave her feet still and have about a foot of slack.

Assuming that ring is set up ear height or higher (ideal and safe) tie her in good footing, flag her to set her off...when she quits setting back, quietly reel her back up to 1' slack. Repeat til nothing sets her off and she's will acquainted with standing quietly with about a foot of slack. Are you invested in fixing this? If so, she can be trained. Clinton's video on this is a good one, and I'm not big fan of his...but this works and I can see why.

Were she mine, chances are I'd never, ever, hard tie her. Or, if I had to- it'd be a lonnnnng time from now. You screwed the pooch getting her hung in that saddle, and here's the small fee for that ;) Ideally you'd rig a mobile Block Tie Ring, or maybe get a Clip, and accept that for a very, very long time, you'd best plan on baby sitting her. If you ever need to overnight her to camp, a high line is a much safer, saner idea. Put up properly, they can't get hurt on a highline.

[Sithly]

If you ever need to overnight her to camp, a high line is a much safer, saner idea. Put up properly, they can't get hurt on a highline.

Agree with that 100%. And after a weekend or two of camping, she'll come to appreciate being tied. :lol: You ride all day, then come back to the highline for hay, water, and rest. The horses I've dealt with have all come to love it after a few days.

[buck22]

teach your horse how to relieve the pressure on herself. show her how she can remove the fear on her own by teaching her to respond to and soften to the feel of tension:
http://lesliedesmond.com/index.php?id=124
http://lesliedesmond.com/index.php?id=113

both articles contain a wealth of information on the topic. The exercises work if they are done in order, and in completion.... teaching maturity about being tied is a process. good luck.

[chicamuxen1]

I've gone thru using a number of methods for training to tie over the years. I KNOW that horses need to feel a release when they panic, that's why most of them immediately stand still after they break free. I've used innertubes, etc. things that give and don't grab them hard. But I also got to watch a dead horse with a broken neck get buried when a trainer I worked for tried to use the tie 'er up and let her learn approach. Lovely 4 yr old roan QTR mare, dead in the blink of an eye.

I suggest the blocker, a sturdy nylon hqlter and a really long rope.

http://blockerranch.chainreactionweb.com/index.php?cPath=24_35&osCsid=b6f28051d59f4a32f3b117a84a11d31c

I think it's one of the safest methods for the average person to use and can be safely used alone. The principle is based on a successful method of tie training. I watched an NH trainer start training an ex-race horse (confirmed halter breaker) to tie using a 30-40 foot rope and a big telephone pole. The method was basicly the same. Good halter on the mare, this time it was a rope halter, gloves on the trainer, rope passed around the pole a couple of times but never tied. A helper picks up a stick with a plastic bag and just waves it in the direction of the horse. Horse goes running backwards while trainer lets the rope feed back with her. The rope was never held tight, just a little pressure allowed on the rope. The first time that mare went a long ways back before stopping. She finally realized that the rope never grabbed her. This was done over and over. The distance she pulled was shorter and shorter, the pressure applied to the rope was gradually more. She learned that she could move her feet all she wanted and that pulling back never was impossible but was a bit uncomfortable. In 20 minutes she was no longer pulling back, and finally quit even moving. the trainer was careful to point out that this was a beginning and that she shouldn't be "tied" hard for a long time.

The blocker allows you to do this yourself, and has different degrees of rope tension that you can use to gradually increase the tension. You do want a good long rope. If your horse is really bad then getting one of those lunging length ROPES is a good way to start then later graduate to a 12' rope. You can attach a blocker to a horse trailer, post, where ever. Check out the website.

Bonnie S.

[rainechyldes]

I learned the tie em and let em fight it out way as well. It works..sometimes.
Now I go by my own experience.

I usually start 2 /3 horses a year, some are unbroke, some are spoilt. I run into the no tie' thing quite often. The least painful method for me these days is not tying, when training to tie.

Usually how I train to tie, or retrain to tie, is I use a fairly long lead rope, and I bring the horse to the tie rail, and then simply loop the lead around the rail two or three times.. I have a fairly hefty smooth 8' round metal tie rail, so the rope will 'slide' free if the horse panics.

I guess I concern myself more with teahing the horse to 'stand' rather then tie. The lead will stay like that for a whole season pretty much, anytime the pull back, I calmly pick up the lead, and reloop it and say nothing to the horse, other then another reminder to stand, and continue whatever I'm doing. (note, I'm usually always near the horse, he is returned to the tie rail immediately if he pulls back)

I've had one guy who did pull back again after I had securely tied him to the trailer, at a show. I didn't say stand, but I was ready to undo the rope if he freaked, I was curious, he hit the end of the lead rope, barely. and stopped mid jerk, walked forward a step and stood quietly again. So in him, I saw the pull back habit was not quite gone, but almost- so I reverted to the no tying for a bit longer on him, he's never done it again.

After a couple of months, I rarely have a no tie issue anymore, it kinda devolves by itself. I also usually end up with a horse who when told to stand, will stand perfectly still, whether they are tied or not. I quite often wander into the paddocks and trim horse feet while they are unhaltered.

[Tamara in TN]

One of my horses sets back if she gets scared. It's like a switch flips in her brain and she panics. ......
It's easier to deal with a bossy attitude than fear, I think. Maybe someone has some new ideas for me...

I do not believe it is fear or panic and as a result I have never treated it as such...

there is a point that you yourself can "trigger" the reaction just like moving off a leg or backing up....

normally you can trigger this in the same way that saddleseat folks ask for an animal to park out....hold the lead rope up and forward and give a tug....now you may have to play with it a little to find just the right pressure spot...when you hit it, they blow just as they think that are supposed to....


your job is to distract and reorient the trigger to something else...I use grain treats but whatever it takes to divert the horse just the moment before they go....will it always be there ? prob...but you can make it less dramatic


best

[Summernyt]

I think this horse is one who could damage herself pretty badly if hard tied and something set her off. I've seen in her some bizarre positions, none of them pretty. She doesn't mind being tied actually...it's the fear of not being able to get away from what scares her. The neck rope sounds useful, but I can see her choking herself with it when her brain shuts off in panic mode.

I had her at a ranch for a very short time where the well-known cowboy trainer told me he could cure her setting back. He got on his horse and ponied her around. She must have been tied to his horse. I think the idea was that she was supposed to keep an eye on him, move into the pressure but all she wanted to do was get away, she was scared to death. It didn't work at all, finally she just laid down on the ground flat out and refused to get up because lying on the ground was the safest option in her opinion. I took her home the next day. He told me she was a menace, and truly this horse doesn't have a mean bone in her body. I don't think he understood her at all, but honestly his horses seem well-trained, healthy and mentally stable, so I dunno...maybe all his other horses did what he expected. He was sure irritated that this one didn't.

Since then I've decided the Holy Grail of Horsedom is to find the correct pressure to apply for the individual horse. That may be because my two horses have only two things in common: they like people and have pretty tails...

I've already got a few Blockers and use them for loading her in the trailer so she's "tied" while I shut the doors etc. I've never tried the different levels of tying that they show on the website, so will give that a shot and I ordered one of the new ones to see if that's better. I'll check out the "Clip" as well.

I'll also work with my stable gal and on my own to train her to go forward using the blocker and/or hitching post and a long line. I did that with a pony I once had and it worked well, but this horse has a much more sensitive personality. If I can get her to feel she can stand there with a release available if she needs it, maybe we can build on that, but I agree it will probably not ever be completely trustworthy. Thanks again!

[Auventera Two]

Two words for you - John Lyons. :) He has a wonderful method of re-training horses after their fuse blew. You can go to the John Lyons Discussion Board for COMPLETE details, but here's an overview:

Halter the horse and use a soft cotton lead rope. Start by running the leadrope around a tree, or through a pipe panel on your roundpen - or wherever. Do NOT tie it, or wrap it around. Basically you're just wanting it running around something. You start by introducing VERY light pressure and the moment the horse makes any effort to lean or step forward, release the rope immediately and praise the horse, give a carrot treat, etc. Gradually increase the amount of pressure, and the add "sudden" pressure. One second the rope is totally slack, the next second, you have added 10 pounds of pressure to the rope. The idea is to build the horse's tolerance to the pressure, and train him that simply moving FORWARD a few inches releases the pressure.

Another way is to just stand in front of the horse and pull the rope very gently to take up the slack until the horse leans or steps forward.

The whole idea is to use the tiniest bit of pressure and increase it in small increments, rewarding profusely for every time the horse gives to the pressure.

The best way to train a horse to tie is to tie him up hard and fast when he's a baby. But once you have an adult horses, and particularly one with baggage, it's a much harder road to get them past it. Good luck, you should be able to get 'er done. :winkgrin:

But I do have a friend who reached the end of her patience with her non-tying horse. She decided one day he was going to "tie or die." She tied him hard and fast to the tree in the back yard and let him fight it out. He was sitting on his butt and flopping around like a fish, hanging from his head. But after 10 minutes of hard fighting, he just quit, and he's never pulled back since. Of course, when you do that, you're taking a HUGE risk. The horse could break its neck, or could get even worse.

But whenever you tie, I would tie HIGH - literally so high that the rope is above the horse's head. It is very difficult for a horse to get downard pressure on a rope that is tied above their head. But it is very easy for them to lift the head up and back.

I can tie mine pretty much anywhere, but one girl I ride with has a rope hanging from a tree that is up so high, you'd have to stand on a stool to untie it from the tree. Even her non-tiers have never seen any reason to fight that.

[Shadow14]

The best way to train a horse to tie is to tie him up hard and fast when he's a baby. But once you have an adult horses, and particularly one with baggage, it's a much harder road to get them past it. Good luck, you should be able to get 'er done. :winkgrin:

But I do have a friend who reached the end of her patience with her non-tying horse. She decided one day he was going to "tie or die." She tied him hard and fast to the tree in the back yard and let him fight it out. He was sitting on his butt and flopping around like a fish, hanging from his head. But after 10 minutes of hard fighting, he just quit, and he's never pulled back since. Of course, when you do that, you're taking a HUGE risk. The horse could break its neck, or could get even worse.


.

I have done older horses. They all became good tiers after a good fight. They had to fight to get it out of their systems.

I too would tie a horse up and let him fight it out. A horse that can't be tied hard and fast is a pain. One you don't have to put up with.
Like your friend I would tie her up and just leave. Put a hay net up and leave her daily for an hour or two. In a short time you will have a good tier.
I personally would use the high line between two trees for give and tie her in the center of the high line. This method has give and regardless of what she does she can not get a pull on anything solid.
A neck rope can NOT strangle a horse. It never goes tight. It fits around the neck and never tightens and the halter takes no load.
I just wouldn't put up with this temper tantrum

[sublimequine]

I have done older horses. They all became good tiers after a good fight. They had to fight to get it out of their systems.

I too would tie a horse up and let him fight it out. A horse that can't be tied hard and fast is a pain. One you don't have to put up with.
Like your friend I would tie her up and just leave. Put a hay net up and leave her daily for an hour or two. In a short time you will have a good tier.
I personally would use the high line between two trees for give and tie her in the center of the high line. This method has give and regardless of what she does she can not get a pull on anything solid.
A neck rope can NOT strangle a horse. It never goes tight. It fits around the neck and never tightens and the halter takes no load.
I just wouldn't put up with this temper tantrum

Sometimes it's not a temper tantrum, but true, honest, panic. They're prey animals, and if they feel they're in danger and cannot escape, panic is not that unusual of a response.

There's a TB at my barn now who is absolutely OBNOXIOUS about tieing. He stands there for awhile, but whenever he decides he's bored and doesn't wanna stand anymore.. he sets back HARD (sometimes even rears), gets free, then stands there, not even the least bit scared or concerned. THAT horse is not panicking.

Then take my own mare, for example. I wasn't aware she couldn't tie, so the first time I tried it.. she hit the end of her lead, and LOST HER MIND. Flailing her head back and forth violently, yanking as hard as she could, just a total blind panic. Once she broke the tie and was free, she was snorting, rolling her eyes, shaking. There's NO WAY you can tell me a horse who is QUIVERING was having a tantrum.

Luckily, since then I have taught her tieing is not something to panic about. I use a blocker tie ring, and very very very gradually reintroduced her to tieing. The first time I tried it, the second she was tied, poor thing started shaking and rolling her eyes. Thankfully she's a lot better now. Patience, a little sympathy for a downright scared horse, and that blocker ring really helped. :)

[Summernyt]

I've looked at pix of them online but can't quite see how they would work. What is the neck rope tied to, and how does it work with a halter?

Is it possible that a neck rope might be easier on this horse in the interim while we work on release to pressure? I think part of her issue is the pressure on her poll when she sets back.

She is not afraid to tie; she's afraid of not being able to escape when something scares her.

Historically it has been no-brain panic when she set back, NOT a tantrum; however, I think she is learning that she can possibly snap the connection when she's anxious or impatient, so it's going in the wrong direction and I need to get on this more seriously.

Thanks...

[Shadow14]

Sometimes it's not a temper tantrum, but true, honest, panic. They're prey animals, and if they feel they're in danger and cannot escape, panic is not that unusual of a response.


)

The OP posted that the horse laid down flat on the ground and refused to get up?? That is a temper tantrum, not fear and I wouldn't put up with it. How do you tie anywhere with confidence?

[Shadow14]

I've looked at pix of them online but can't quite see how they would work. What is the neck rope tied to, and how does it work with a halter?

Is it possible that a neck rope might be easier on this horse in the interim while we work on release to pressure?

Thanks...

A neck rope has not give and yes it pulls from around the neck. It is a rope about 10 feet long with a snap at one end. You tie a strong metal ring at a length from the snap that fits comfortably around the neck.
You just snap this around the neck , pass the end through the halter ring and tie it like any other lead line. The big thing is they don't break. You do not rely on the halter to hold the pull. This strong rope just assures that the horse will not get away no matter what.
It is a standard amish way of tieing and they often leave their horses 10 hours or more tied to anything they can and know the horse will not get away.
I have a few really heavy duty units that I use for breaking and a number of other ones that I use daily.
When I trailer anywhere I always always tie with a neck rope the trailer nowing that nothing he can do will set him free while it tied with a halter he might break it.
The neck rope also doubles as a tether rope for me. I put a padded cuff around his left hind leg, snap the neck rope to the ring and tie him on grass to allow him to graze.
When high lining at any ride most used a neck rope for security.

This is my guy tied for the night, a misserable night but tied to a high line with a neck rope. He will be there in the morning Notice the sliding swivel I use. He is free to walk back and forth or lay down
http://i41.tinypic.com/4utp45.jpg

[sublimequine]

The OP posted that the horse laid down flat on the ground and refused to get up?? That is a temper tantrum, not fear and I wouldn't put up with it. How do you tie anywhere with confidence?

I think the OP's horse is beginning to be snotty about it, yes. But I was giving an example that not all horses who don't tie are doing it because they're being bad. Some do it because they're scared.

I don't HAVE to tie, my mare groundties. ;)

[Shadow14]

I don't HAVE to tie, my mare groundties. ;)

Yes you do. There comes a time when you need to tie every horse. At any ride you either have someone babysit the horse or tie it to the trailer. At any show you either babysit the horse or tie it to the trailer. Everything you do requires tying.
That said I have left my guy ground tied for over an hour unattended and he doesn't move. I do hobble daily and my guy wears both front and rear hobbles, both or one end only
What do you do at a boarding barn, your horse is standing in the aisle, others are cross tied and you realized you need to get something in the tac room? Do you walk away leaving the horse ground tied, risking others with an accident or get someone else to get whatever for you?
I have the strongest ground tyer I know but I wouldn't leave him long in a crowded barn with others cross tied and risk their horses.
When no one is around I bring the horse out without a halter of anything else, tell him to stand and expect him to be a total statue until I finish whatever and then tell him he may return to his stall.
Strider being clipped and brushed standing totally free.
http://i44.tinypic.com/34dqxck.jpg

[Summernyt]

The OP posted that the horse laid down flat on the ground and refused to get up?? That is a temper tantrum, not fear and I wouldn't put up with it. How do you tie anywhere with confidence?

I DON'T tie anywhere with confidence, that's the point...and no, it was not a temper tantrum in this case. Abject fear and confusion and probably a little cowboy ego...

The horse in question ground ties too but honestly, it is NOT always good enough, e.g., I wanted to practice loading the balking QH and thought I'd tie the Andalusian near the trailer window as a way to get the QH's thoughts in the trailer. Andalusian can't see the QH because she's getting in the trailer and Andalusian really wants to be with her plus she has no fear about getting in the trailer and that's where the food is...so I can't train one horse and not worry about the other jumping in the trailer too! Same thing on trail rides, can't tie horses at opposite sides of the trailer because the one will break the tie to get over to us. None of it's acceptable, I just don't want to cross the line between the horse getting trained and getting hurt if I can help it which is why I appreciate all the good suggestions.

I'll look at figuring out the rope halter which probably works great but honestly, I don't want to create more issues by being inexperienced trying a new piece of equipment! I think I need a video or an Amish trainer...

[sublimequine]

Yes you do. There comes a time when you need to tie every horse. At any ride you either have someone babysit the horse or tie it to the trailer. At any show you either babysit the horse or tie it to the trailer. Everything you do requires tying.
That said I have left my guy ground tied for over an hour unattended and he doesn't move. I do hobble daily and my guy wears both front and rear hobbles, both or one end only
What do you do at a boarding barn, your horse is standing in the aisle, others are cross tied and you realized you need to get something in the tac room? Do you walk away leaving the horse ground tied, risking others with an accident or get someone else to get whatever for you?
I have the strongest ground tyer I know but I wouldn't leave him long in a crowded barn with others cross tied and risk their horses.
When no one is around I bring the horse out without a halter of anything else, tell him to stand and expect him to be a total statue until I finish whatever and then tell him he may return to his stall.
Strider being clipped and brushed standing totally free.
http://i44.tinypic.com/34dqxck.jpg

Um, no, I don't. I don't show, and I can access trails by riding to them. I don't even own a trailer. :lol:

[cb06]

This is interesting to hear the different techniques that definitely sound worth a try. This is kind-of long, but here is another method I have seen used, sort of a spin of the snubbing technique described by shadow. I am not advocating it, as I know it will not be for all, but I can describe it and the results to add to the mix of suggestions and give you some food for thought.

Background: As a grad student, several moons ago, I assisted with a breaking and training class at a large university, basically helping adv. horse students get the basics on some coming 3 yr olds (it was a fall class) using techniques dictated by the professor (think old cowboy type). The horses varied (stock/appendix types), but most had minimal handling, none tied, only a few even led reliably at the start of the class. You get the picture..

So...tying (this section of the class did come after halter breaking). We had a snubbing post, aka. a large, immovable post, about 5 feet high with ring on the top...located in the middle of a soft sand ring. Using a long, large, soft cotton rope with a small loop in one end (like a larriet), we put the loop end of the rope around the horses body like a girth (only not really tight), with rope running through the small loop between the horses front legs, then up the front of the neck and through the bottom of the halter (both the back part of the halter and the nose part...nylon, non-breaking halter) and the horse was tied to the ring (slip knot) with about 2 feet of slack.

Hope I explained that well enough. Anyway, the premise is the horse pulls back, the rope around their girth area tightens and the horse jumps forward, the rope loosens. The horse learns it can release the pressure itself by stepping forward. 'Self-taught' tying..so to speak. Passing the rope through the halter prevents the horse from really throwing its head up and possibly injurying itself if it falls backwards...so if the horse rears up, the head actually gets pulled down somewhat and horse falls backwards more in a balled-up position...how I know this to follow...

The reactions we got: We had about 12 horses in this class. About half of them pulled back, paniced a bit, jumped forward, repeated a couple times and quit. We followed-up with some sacking out stuff to reinforce that they had truely learned not to pull...they had. aka wave bag around horse a bit, horse moves off, eventually stands, accepts bag, but does not pull back. A few horse had more of a go of it, and there was several minutes of half rears and plunging around, before the panic subsided and they figured it out.

One horse, sat back, the rope tightened and he went apesh!t...really. Although I would never in a million years thought it possible with the little bit of rope he did have, he reared straight up, nose pulled down towards chest, jumped in the air like a Lippizan and did a complete flip backwards...but landed on his back only as his head was pulled down....and it was deep sand. Lots of thrashing on the ground, lept to his feet, lather rinse, repeat...he threw himself on the ground several times. Probably about 10 full minutes of a real wild west show. It was initially some panic, but eventually, he was just really, REALLY mad. He exhausted himself with it after the 10 minutes fight and eventually stayed on the ground at one point (sound familiar)...shook a plastic bag at him, which got him back up and he was done, never pulled back again.

The snubbing routine was repeated in the next class, coupled with more sacking out just to solidify the behaviour and none of the horses, not one, pulled after that first session...they were tied normally with a halter afterwards and none ever pulled back for the duration of the class.

Also, nobody was hurt, no scapes, rope burns, nothing. All lived to tell the tale unscathed.

So for better or worse, it did seem to work, although having the right set up with the snubbing post and deep sand footing, was important.

So, there is my .02 of experience...use (or not) as you see fit.

[chicamuxen1]

I've used the method you described but tied the rope to an innertube, actually initially I wrapped the rope around the innertube a few times so I could feed the rope out if needed. I've noticed that the belly or girth rope squeeze (really at the girth area does seem to encourage a horse to move forward, releasing the pressure and therefore teaching themselves that moving forward is a good thing. But you really have to have a perfect place to do this. My preference being a big, big post set up against a wall so the horse can't hurt itself if it responds with a leap forward.

But I've changed my thinking over the years after watching true panicaholic horses. They need basic ground work, ideally inside a good enclosure like a round pen (so you aren't having to exhaust yourself covering a lot of ground in a bigger space). I've seen horses who don't have the ability (yet) to think before panicing. They need to be started over so to speak, learn to engage brain before fleeing.

I've learned (although sometimes I forget temporarily) that when something goes wrong with a horse I must step back and think "what have I done wrong?" "What step did I bypass?" This wasn't a natural way for me to think, and it doesn't come easy.

Bonnie s.

[Shadow14]

So for better or worse, it did seem to work, although having the right set up with the snubbing post and deep sand footing, was important.

So, there is my .02 of experience...use (or not) as you see fit.

Good Story cb06. I forgot about that method. I have heard about it but that was 40-50 years ago. I believe if a horse doesn't fight something it doesn't really learn it can not win that round and once broken with a fight it will not forget and be better for it.

[Icecapade]

I was suprised no one had mentioned this yet!

we did that to an young gelding, usually reliable but had been known to flip out... suck back and in worse cases if he had the slack go backwards, which was a lot of horse for an arab.

Sigh, we did the neck rope... we did the thrash it out, we did this one... several times....

and yes to this day he will still suck back. And we just make sure we never walk away with a saddle sitting there, girthed or not. You have everything you need on hand, girth him up and go... if you don't there is a small risk of crushing your tree.

he is a good horse and he does it once every few months and is really dependent on how much he is being worked... but he has never been 110% reliable and we do lots of stuff, picket for cav competitions, endurance races etc etc and he is usually fine. BUt then again if he goes we just stand there watch him flip and go about our buisness, no muss no fuss, he stands up and we move on. LOL I think he does it for attention truthfully!

But some horses just don't learn- most do... but some don't.

[cb06]

Good Story cb06. I forgot about that method. I have heard about it but that was 40-50 years ago. I believe if a horse doesn't fight something it doesn't really learn it can not win that round and once broken with a fight it will not forget and be better for it.

I think you hit the nail on the head. It was really important that the horse feel the rope and have the initial reactions, and then follow-up with the sacking out to make sure they had learned not to pull back, even under duress.

I found the RANGE of reactions very interesting also. At that time I, probably like many here, had never been around a horse of that age/size with so little handling, and had never seen that method used. Although I had seen horses have those panic 'moments' when tied and break their halter/snap/lead/board or whatever, AND GET FREE... I had never seen a horse truely fight it out in a situation where it could NOT get loose, AND was not LET loose, but instead had to figure it out. I won't lie, watching that one horse really, REALLY fight was disconcerting....had I not seen the other outcomes, been alone with my own horse, etc. ...I would have been really tempted to jerk the slip knot and end the fight...which would have been the absolute WRONG thing to do for that horse. But, I think you have to remember that we had the right equipment and the right set up for exactly that type of reaction...he was supervised and safe and it was really important to let him fight it out with that post to the bitter end. Definitely an interesting study in horse behaviour...

[Shadow14]

But, I think you have to remember that we had the right equipment and the right set up for exactly that type of reaction...he was supervised and safe and it was really important to let him fight it out with that post to the bitter end. Definitely an interesting study in horse behaviour...

Anyone if they try can find something that they can tie to. I hate just tieing to a tree, hate it but a high line between 2 trees and then tie off to the center of the high line is safe, let the horse throw himself, let him try flipping out. If you can't watch go away. Leave a hay net and tie to this every day until the horse gets the idea then move to something solid and tie there every day for a week. Sack out the horse like you said, get it to fight, that is the only way it will learn and if it is too dumb to learn then get rid of it.

[katarine]

The chatter about the horse that truly sat back and fought- I broke his twin this winter LOL. He'd tie, but the first time I put a rope round his girth and took up the slack, truly it was no more than 3-4 lbs of pressure- he went for the moon- teeth snapping/hell snapping/bellowing like a bull/spinning/mad- absolutely the most overdone overreaction to that pressure. again, that horse tied fine, 100% fine- but that heartgirth pressure was a Whole New World to that baby, and he couldn't and wouldn't tolerate it. we got past it, but he loped many a circle in my round pen with a heart rope on and me tugging on it, letting him learn he could never, ever buck it off. Only when he softened and slowed down did he earn slack. He learned to yield to that pressure.

I recall many a broodmare who'd learned to feed slack in a rope then POP that snap, even a good bull snap, on a lead rope. I recall a few getting tied to an overhead rope- no hardware, big stout Valhoma halters on a stout cedar tree limb...and them fighting and hogging and bawling then flopping like fish, exhausted and mad. Just let 'em lie there, they are welcome to get up when they are through sulking.

I recall a friend's then 3 YO getting annoyed with bath time on my washrack and first wallowing, then full fledged sitting back against her rope halter and lead and fighting and she too, flopped like a fish, head and neck laid up against my barn, just furious and scared, too, I'm sure- but mostly mad at being told no, you will stay right here. I looked at the owner, said I thought you said she tied LOL? I let her lay there a bit then decided it was time to get up. 3-4 pops with a lunge whip, cowhorse was up. Trembling? sure. That's fine, and I'm sure a million things were going through her mind. But first and foremost, she was considering that something did indeed have the power to say no, you WILL stay here. Horses that are coddled and stood over and soothed when they get worried, GAH that just creates insecure, pushy, bossy, monsters. Seems this filly WAS tied- but distracted with pebbles if she pawed, or her hay bag adjusted, or her tail brushed. hells bells I sit in a cube all day- that mare can't flippin STAND tied for an hour, unmolested, bored, and irritated? Well, why not? LOL

Tie them with a stout halter and rope and NO hardware, to a nice, stout overhead limb, through an inner tube, sure- gives them SOME give but not too much. But, first...IF the horse has some handling on him, which he SHOULD, teach him to simply give to pressure with ample ground work. Drive it home. It's the confirmed I can and will escape horses...horses that have learned tying is optional- well, at my house that means hard work followed by hours and hours and hours tied or on a highline. They have to learn this skill to be viable critters in my world. YMMV.

[Icecapade]

big key mentioned again... if its truly a safe enviornment with all safety procautions (tied high, good equipment, no tack caught up etc etc) then let em sit.

too much oh baby oh baby...

sit there and figure it out dumbass!

[cb06]

...this brings up another really good point... BE PREPARED for the WORST. That is why it is really good to hear all of these different scenarios. The horse that fought the most in my example was one of the nicer horses to handle otherwise...so don't be fooled. We were standing around with gloves on ready to jump in had he entangled himself, which he could have done...we would have jerked him loose, untangled and retied a little tighter.

Your little 'Pudd'n Pie' may be a real sweetheart, but put into a box and pushed outside their comfort zone, and even a seemingly 'nice' horse can turn into a monster. So find the safest environment with the best equipment and invision a 'wild west show' of your own with your horse,...what will you do if X, Y or Z happens?...and if you don't get that kind of reaction, consider yourself lucky.

[Kyzteke]

I have done older horses. They all became good tiers after a good fight. They had to fight to get it out of their systems.

I too would tie a horse up and let him fight it out.

Shadow14 -- you really do love a fight, don't you? Clue -- horses DON'T. Prey animals don't love to fight. You are a predator (and a good one, I bet) and they DO love to fight. What you are seeing is sheer panic and fear at being "caught".

Once you've had a valuable (or even well-loved) horse break a neck or flip over and kill themselves from a blow to the head you will come to realize that the most violent way is not the best way. Yeah, the other ways take alittle more time, but we'll worth it.

I've seen any number of horses that were "trained" to tie just by "tying 'em tight and letting 'em figure it out," who reverted to pulling back when something went badly wrong (like what the OP is describing). I've seen foals actually herniate discs this way and render themselves useless as using horses.

Personally, I think those horses are rather claustrophobic about pressure. I had one mare who was trained to tie by "tying her up and letting her fight it out" as a youngster. With her new owner she reverted to pulling back -- as a 5 year old! But here's the weird thing: if she was tied to a horse trailer with nothing but space behind her, she would pull back. If she was tied to something like a tree or post with lots of space IN FRONT of her and a wall or something behind her (even 20 ft. behind her) she did not pull back.

I once knew a very well-respected horseman who told me that pulling back was one of the hardest vices to break. I took an older mare to him who was a confirmed puller. He worked with her FOREVER and when I came to pick her up, he demonstrated her progress by tying her to a 2 horse trailer with a rope halter. In about 5 minutes she pulled back and dragged that 2 horse trailer back 2 FEET (it wasn't hooked to a truck) before she stopped. She was a 17hh Hanoverian mare.

It's a tough one to break, and will take time.

[katarine]

Personally, I think those horses are rather claustrophobic about pressure. I had one mare who was trained to tie by "tying her up and letting her fight it out" as a youngster. With her new owner she reverted to pulling back -- as a 5 year old! But here's the weird thing: if she was tied to a horse trailer with nothing but space behind her, she would pull back. If she was tied to something like a tree or post with lots of space IN FRONT of her and a wall or something behind her (even 20 ft. behind her) she did not pull back.

....
It's a tough one to break, and will take time.

Yes, agreed. That colt I referenced above just couldn't figure it out, so he fought like hell to escape it (the rope round his heartgirth). These are the naturally cinchy horses, the horses that utterly flip out with the sensory flooding it creates...so personally I'm leery of heart ropes and neck ropes. It's too much, JMO. In that case I truly thanked my lucky stars he was a good tier- he'd been taught well as a baby and held onto that learning. But his phobia about pressure reared it's surprisingly ugly head in other ways and places. He'd stand tied all day anywhere- I pushed that envelope and didn't find it lacking...BUT- had I tested it with a heart rope? It would've been one hell of a wreck, I promise.

[Shadow14]

Shadow14 -- you really do love a fight, don't you? Clue -- horses DON'T. Prey animals don't love to fight. You are a predator (and a good one, I bet) and they DO love to fight. What you are seeing is sheer panic and fear at being "caught".

.

No I don't mind a good fight. I will sometimes go out of my way to make the horse do something that I know will turn into a fight BUT give me 6 months and that horse is rock solid no matter what. I've never lost a fight either.
I started Rio on about September 19th or so. I can not find anything that he won't do now. No water, no mud, no farm equipment, no garbage, no nothing that I can't point him at and have him take it in his stride.
I''m not young, I have tons of experience and I always have the best horse in a barn or out on trail, always.

[Shadow14]

Once you've had a valuable (or even well-loved) horse break a neck or flip over and kill themselves from a blow to the head you will come to realize that the most violent way is not the best way. Yeah, the other ways take alittle more time, but we'll worth it.

.

I've lost 2 gorgous animals, ones that broke my heart.
One to a vet and one to another horse that kicked him to death.
Does this mean I don't let vets near my horse or put him in the pasture with other horses??
Shit happens but life is a gamble. As for experience 51 years this summer of owning and riding.

[Shadow14]

If I can't count on a horse when the chips are down I don't want that horse. Even at being caught in a trian tunnel with a train comming through I expect the horse to hold. Even that. If the horse is really broke he stops thinking for himself and just does what he is told. I don't want my horse to think, I want him to obey. You think it is fear that holds my horses and I don't blame you from my posts but you haven't seen me around them. A scared abused pony that a few month ago you couldn't get near nickering when he sees me, nuzzeling my pockets when I come into the field. Rio running to meet me , impatient for me, or one following my truck as I leave right up to the corner by the road. NO you don't know my relationship with all animals so don't judge too quickly.

[Icecapade]

If I can't count on a horse when the chips are down I don't want that horse. Even at being caught in a trian tunnel with a train comming through I expect the horse to hold. Even that. If the horse is really broke he stops thinking for himself and just does what he is told. I don't want my horse to think, I want him to obey. You think it is fear that holds my horses and I don't blame you from my posts but you haven't seen me around them. A scared abused pony that a few month ago you couldn't get near nickering when he sees me, nuzzeling my pockets when I come into the field. Rio running to meet me , impatient for me, or one following my truck as I leave right up to the corner by the road. NO you don't know my relationship with all animals so don't judge too quickly.

around we go...

just because the horse thinks doesn't mean you can't count on them... but I need a horse to think- I'll never take a horse I can't count on to THINK.

I'm sure with lesser breed (read bad inbreed blood) or just plain dumb horses (cause plento mutts have good heads) thats just fine. But if you have a horse with a good head... then you don't need them to stop thinking because you can give them the chance to find the way home or get you out of a fix YOU put yourself in (did that more than once).

No thanks, I'll pass on brain dead 'broke' horses.

[Auventera Two]

Um, no, I don't. I don't show, and I can access trails by riding to them. I don't even own a trailer. :lol:

What if you have to take a pee behind a bush? :lol: Sorry I couldn't resist. Remember that photo of an endurance rider inside a porta potty? The horse's reins were going inside the door and the door was shut on the reins. Oh my :lol: all I could imagine was the horse setting back and tipping the porta potty over, or pulling the door open with the rider sitting there with her pants down. It was a hilarious photo that should be on a greeting card or something! :lol:

[Icecapade]

What if you have to take a pee behind a bush? :lol: Sorry I couldn't resist. Remember that photo of an endurance rider inside a porta potty? The horse's reins were going inside the door and the door was shut on the reins. Oh my :lol: all I could imagine was the horse setting back and tipping the porta potty over, or pulling the door open with the rider sitting there with her pants down. It was a hilarious photo that should be on a greeting card or something! :lol:

ha ha ha... my horse has been trained to stand at portapotties...

I have done that before..... I'm not as.... okay I am a little ashamed to admit it.
:lol::lol::lol:

and NO its not better than a bush but sometimes its all you have!!!

[Auventera Two]

sit there and figure it out dumbass!

Sit there and figure it out dumbass is fine when you're just bustin' up some cheap skag nasty auction horse that you don't give two shits about. But when you're dealing with expensive and valuable performance animals, you better find a way that doesn't involved a broken neck and a panic attack. ;) The farrier and I tied Sweets up high and tight and let her fight it out when she was a weanling. BUT, she was a weanling so she didn't have much power. And the horse is not a fighter by nature. And she wasn't panicking, but having a little hissy that lasted about 10 seconds, if even. And I did have a quick release on the rope so I "could" have released her if it elevated to neck breaking drama.

I'm all for punishing a horse with a swift and painful whip smack or a chain over the nose when they do something egregious. I am NOT for cowboying an animal just because I can. No horse of mine will ever be tied up to either tie or die. Mine DO know how to tie and they tight hard and fast anywhere, to anything, any time. BUT, if they did not, I wouldn't stand for the cowboying behavior with my horses. There IS such a thing as training a horse with compassion and intelligence versus just "breaking" them.

For what it's worth, I really have no use for horses that can't tie, can't load, can't get shots, etc...... But the problem really isn't the horse so much as the OWNER. We don't need to be so ignorant that we just "bust 'em up a little bit." We need to use our brains to develop an effective, safe, and compassionate training plan. If we can't do that, then we need to leave the business to someone who CAN. (I'm not talking about you Icecapade, I'm saying in general :))

I have a friend who has a young mare who is the sweetest thing on the planet but is deathly terrified of ropes, being tied, anything touching her belly, anything flappy, etc. She was NOT like this until my friend tied her up to the top rail of the arena fence while she was working another horse. The mare set back and broke the board loose and took off across the field dragging the board. Her saddle spun under her belly, she got all hooked up in the whole mess, and it took awhile before anybody could catch her. That mare has had a LOT of training since then (with a professional) and she's never gotten over it. She got better, and she was able to be ridden by the professional on the trail, but the average rider probably could never handle her. Once you brain fry a horse, you can have a VERY difficult time getting them back. It was nobody's fault, it was just an unfortunate accident.

That mare bucked me off when I rode her through some tall grass that tickled her belly. She didn't have a mean bone in her body, but she would get flat terrified. She'll shake and sweat and looking into her eyes, you can see this poor soul screaming out for somebody to - please help me.

She's a young mare, and is now just a pasture pet because she will never be safe and reliable again. It just won't happen. I know horses pretty good and that girl will probably not making a riding horse. The trainer and owner also agree that while she is an adorable sweet sweet girl, she won't ever be reliable under saddle because her mental baggage is too much for her to handle.

And yes - the mare is actually turned out in a large field with a herd, and she grazes in the belly deep grass and weeds without incident. But it is the mental connection of saddle + human + belly deep weeds = panic.

[jenm]

If you want professional guidance, you might consider working with Jerry Tindell when he is in Gilroy next week: http://jerrytindell.com/clinic_schedule.htm

I can't say enough good things about him and his methods and you might feel better working with someone who has been through this many, many times. You could either go to his clinic, or have him work with you privately while he is in the area.

[Shadow14]

What if you have to take a pee behind a bush? :lol: Sorry I couldn't resist. Remember that photo of an endurance rider inside a porta potty? The horse's reins were going inside the door and the door was shut on the reins. Oh my :lol: all I could imagine was the horse setting back and tipping the porta potty over, or pulling the door open with the rider sitting there with her pants down. It was a hilarious photo that should be on a greeting card or something! :lol:

It happened at cross hill in 1989 and I could name the woman. She was in the toilet with her pants around her ankles, the reins through the door and the horse reared back pulling her right out of the toilet and into a crowded area. I will never forget the site:winkgrin:

[Shadow14]

around we go...

just because the horse thinks doesn't mean you can't count on them... but I need a horse to think- I'll never take a horse I can't count on to THINK.

I'm sure with lesser breed (read bad inbreed blood) or just plain dumb horses (cause plento mutts have good heads) thats just fine. But if you have a horse with a good head... then you don't need them to stop thinking because you can give them the chance to find the way home or get you out of a fix YOU put yourself in (did that more than once).

No thanks, I'll pass on brain dead 'broke' horses.

I am smarter then my horse and I hope to be able to access the situation and pick the right way out of any perdicimate. I want him to listen at all times and not take over for me.

[katarine]

My trainer retrained a halter mare who'd learned to sit back and break halters. (This mare was simply held by the owner's wife at horse shows, since she didn't tie). She learned pretty well to stand up and be tied, she wasn't scared just hoggy, and left the trainer's place and went home to a big boarding barn, fixed.

Saw 'em at the horse show later that summer, wife is once again holding said mare. Turns out tying her to the handle of large sliding door on the end of the boarding barn was a bad idea after all. She stepped back to test the rope and here came the door after her. Nice, real, nice, folks. :confused:

[Shadow14]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Norval - you owe me a new keyboard!!!!!!!!!!!!! *snort*

.

Drop by the lab antime A2 and I will take you for lunch and buy you any new keyboard you want. My pleasure:D:D

When is it ok for a horse to take over??
Approaching a jump, the horse refuses, sidesteps? You smack him and try again to force him over the jump?? Has the horse not decided that going around is better, the more sensible way to go?
You ask the horse to cross a small river, the horse refuses. It is just as good on this side of the river? Why cross?? The horse has made a decision??
You head out for a ride. The horse rears and spins, want's to go home. Why waste time running around the woods when I can be home eating with my buddies?? The horse has made a decision.
When is it all right for the horse to decide??
No my horse never gets to decide what is best.
Icecapade coming from your military background you should understand more then anyone discipline and the soldiers job to obey without question?
Lets have an army of everyone thinking for themselves and we have utter chaos.

A2 NONE of this is directed at you. I will wait for your call about lunch.:):)

[Auventera Two]

LOL, :lol:

I do agree with you Norval that horses can't be allowed to rule the show any ole time they want. It comes down to knowing the horse, being able to read the body language and tell in a moment if it is fear, aggression, disobedience, or misunderstanding. Horsemanship is an art and not everyone has the skills or talent for it. Some horses are naturally just "easy" and some are "hard." Some go along with the flow and never question authority, never blow up at stimulus, never gets aggressive. And some horses are a fight or an accident waiting for a place to happen.

Within my herd of 3, they are all so vastly different. Libbey is the one who never spooks, never resists, never requires any kind of discipline. She is just so calm and complacent. Monster is a steddy eddie also. Anybody can ride her, but she does freak over cows. She has an attitude. She hates being groomed. Hates seeing a horse trailer. But she'll do it. She's likely to give you a dramatic sigh and pin her ears as she walks in the the trailer, but she will never refuse. Sweets is the volatile paris hilton, just waiting for a place to throw a hissy or spook or bolt or get mad and stomp a foot. She'll go anywhere, do anything, but there might be a drama display for a few seconds preceeding it. Libbey or Monster will just say - ok, I'll walk over this culvert. Sweets might need to get the tantrum out of the way first.

With her I have to know when its legitimate fear and when she needs a good old fashion butt stomping. ;) Since I started riding with split reins, I'll reach back with one and whack her when she starts to throw a hissy over something. It shuts her down pretty fast. So now, as soon as I start to switch both reins into one hand, she'll just give in and do whatever she's supposed to do. She hates it that the rein smack is coming so she'll just do it to avoid that. She also learned that when I park her under a tree and snap off a branch, that she's about to get lit up. She's just like a kid. She'll be dinking around and acting stupid and I'll ride her off the edge of the trail a bit, underneath a low hanging tree, and she's like "Ok, sorry. I'm good now. Won't happen again." :lol: I used to ride with a crop but I hate fumbling with it the whole ride if I don't need to. But it's just so funny how she KNOWS that she's about to get it and she'll just quit whatever she was doing.

They're all different.

[Icecapade]

Drop by the lab antime A2 and I will take you for lunch and buy you any new keyboard you want. My pleasure:D:D

When is it ok for a horse to take over?? When I allow
Approaching a jump, the horse refuses, sidesteps? You smack him and try again to force him over the jump?? Has the horse not decided that going around is better, the more sensible way to go?
know of people who didn't trust their solid jumping companion... broken bones and more cause of wash outs and wasp hives underneath that the horse knew about but the rider was unaware
You ask the horse to cross a small river, the horse refuses. It is just as good on this side of the river? Why cross?? The horse has made a decision??
horse goes when there is a need and thats where we are headed... horse goes for me when I say so.. if I need to cross I say so, if there is another way around... I saw around

You head out for a ride. The horse rears and spins, want's to go home. Why waste time running around the woods when I can be home eating with my buddies?? The horse has made a decision.
horse never makes the choice to go NOT go out. we leave when I say we leave
When is it all right for the horse to decide??
when I get them in a fix because I demanded they go usually. Almost lost a horse to a mud bog + t stakes because i said we are doing puddle training... and we went down to our very high up belly.. .I would have bailed but there was no ground and I had a serious possibility to be stomped under because I would have gotten stuck. I let him have his head and he picked his way out.

Going up/down a rough hill... I will give him his head and let him pick the safest way if there is no trail. Controlled but he gets to chose and I catch him if he falls, but I don't dictate cause he can see things I can't
No my horse never gets to decide what is best.
Icecapade coming from your military background you should understand more then anyone discipline and the soldiers job to obey without question?
blinding discipline has gotten a lot of men killed in the past, and rebellion has been known to save people. There is a time and a place, but yes order and discipline is a must and I don't let me horse chose anything that I don't let him chose.
Lets have an army of everyone thinking for themselves and we have utter chaos.:lol::lol::lol::lol: I thought we had that already!!! :D

A2 NONE of this is directed at you. I will wait for your call about lunch.:):)



A2 had a point... its a case by case basis- for horse AND rider. My mom wouldn't let me stallion pick her way in a tight spot, she doesn't trust him like I do... but her gelding she would. There is a time and place for judgment. Sometimes the horse really does have better judgement. =)