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View Full Version : Can we say S-C-O-P-E ???!!!!



La Gringa
Apr. 6, 2009, 05:59 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqG4PNbmSfQ

OMG

This one is going to be tough to stay on!!

WHO IS THIS HORSE?? :eek:

Queen Latisha
Apr. 6, 2009, 06:02 PM
There's been a couple of threads about this horse and his jumping ability.:D

dainty do
Apr. 6, 2009, 06:05 PM
I think this horse was posted before and seem to remember comments suggesting that the horse was jumping un-naturally probably due to being poled and had therefore failed his performanace test?

bayknight
Apr. 6, 2009, 06:06 PM
I haven't seen this video yet.....HOLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

La Gringa
Apr. 6, 2009, 06:09 PM
I think this horse was posted before and seem to remember comments suggesting that the horse was jumping un-naturally probably due to being poled and had therefore failed his performanace test?

Or maybe people just can't believe this...

Whatever... this horse can jump!

theroanypony
Apr. 6, 2009, 06:27 PM
Yeah, I remember people saying what a terrible jumper he'd be because he'd waste so much time in the air.

La Gringa
Apr. 6, 2009, 06:39 PM
Yeah, I remember people saying what a terrible jumper he'd be because he'd waste so much time in the air.

I don't know. You can't teach a bascule like that. I think it's hard to judge from a free jumping exercise what a horse would be like with some training and a rider on its back.

Even if it was poled, which is actually still quite common BTW, the expression was there and the horse was really trying.

I am still amazed by it... and would sure want one that did this over one that didn't care.

danosaur
Apr. 6, 2009, 06:41 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM4GTe_d58E&feature=related

pretty sure this is the same horse

WorthTheWait95
Apr. 6, 2009, 06:42 PM
:eek:
I'd be interested to see a vid of the same horse after some training and see what he's like. He can clearly jump poled or not....I sure wouldn't want to be the first one to sit on him over a fence though!

ETA: oops posting while the previous poster was. Vid link didn't work for me...It's a youtube problem not the link though.

ETA (II) ;): WOW! If it is the same horse how impressive!!!

La Gringa
Apr. 6, 2009, 06:44 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM4GTe_d58E&feature=related

pretty sure this is the same horse

...and I would say it jumps pretty well with a rider on its back. I like the hind end esp.

Not bad...

even if it did fail the 100 day test, it's still a good jumper, Olympic caliber.. so I guess it's "hang time" wasn't a factor afterall.

Thanks for posting that link.

Entourage
Apr. 6, 2009, 06:47 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM4GTe_d58E&feature=related

pretty sure this is the same horse

Beautiful horse but they have different markings.

La Gringa
Apr. 6, 2009, 06:48 PM
Yeah, I remember people saying what a terrible jumper he'd be because he'd waste so much time in the air.

Not sure... but I still say it's got a great jump.

The two videos are not the same horse it seems.

La Gringa
Apr. 6, 2009, 06:51 PM
Beautiful horse but they have different markings.

Corrected, maybe you are right.

The one in in the first one has a higher white leg on the front.

SaturdayNightLive
Apr. 6, 2009, 06:51 PM
Yeah, the horse in the first video and the horse in the second are not the same horse as far as I can tell. One has markings on its face, the other doesn't, at least not that I could see.

La Gringa
Apr. 6, 2009, 07:01 PM
There are a couple of other vids from this same person... it seems the Filly in the free jumping one is by the Stallion in the Olympics.

That makes sense, they are from the same farm, and why the stallion's name appears in the filly's video.

Kinsella
Apr. 6, 2009, 07:05 PM
My guess is that the horse in the first video is an offspring of the horse in the second video. The second video is Epsom Gesmeray who is a proven (obviously!) GP stallion.

mvp
Apr. 6, 2009, 07:08 PM
The first horse is a cool-looking freak of nature! But cool-LOOKING-- How is anyone going to ride that scope?

Fantastic to see, though. Thanks for posting it!

IsolaBella09
Apr. 6, 2009, 07:27 PM
Love that video. Like this one as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmGOjKokz6I&feature=related

SCOPE! :lol:

carrie_girl
Apr. 6, 2009, 07:43 PM
Love that video. Like this one as well:

http://64.33.126.67/discontinuedsaddlesforreference-ss2.html

SCOPE! :lol:

Huh? I don't get it ????

Queen Latisha
Apr. 6, 2009, 07:55 PM
LOL, I think she posted the wrong link.:D

IsolaBella09
Apr. 6, 2009, 08:20 PM
Huh? I don't get it ????


LOL, I think she posted the wrong link.:D

Oops! Fixed my post. :lol:

superpony123
Apr. 6, 2009, 10:12 PM
those 2 videos are not the same horses, unfortunately. in the OP video, while its a crazy impressive bascule, its overly unnecessary. too much air time, and it seems like he literally jumps straight up. not really, but he goes a little too high instead of jumping foreward, i feel like he's jumping more UP instead of out, if that makes any sense. like, im imagining that with a super WIDE oxer, it could cause troubles for this horse and he'd easily hit back rails a lot from maybe not jumping ahead as much but jumping up. i dunnno. its impressive, but still inefficient. will make a good puissance horse, but otherwise, i cant see him being super competitive in grand prix unless he stops jumping straight up in a way.

La Gringa
Apr. 6, 2009, 10:24 PM
How can you judge an entire future of a horse from one video?

I would make that decision after seeing it do the exercise a few more times., and then seeing what she can do with some training and a person on her back. She might mellow out just fine and carry through.

It's a mare too.. the daughter of the second horse posted.

I think she's amazing, and if trained properly could learn to jump just fine. She's got the springs for sure.

wyldhorseb
Apr. 6, 2009, 10:53 PM
I think that horse just looks weird. I wouldn't WANT to ride that horse. lol =]

SaturdayNightLive
Apr. 6, 2009, 11:04 PM
I'm not a huge fan of the "I've been poled since the day I was born" look over fences, but to each their own.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
Apr. 7, 2009, 12:39 AM
How can you judge an entire future of a horse from one video?

I would make that decision after seeing it do the exercise a few more times., and then seeing what she can do with some training and a person on her back. She might mellow out just fine and carry through.

It's a mare too.. the daughter of the second horse posted.

I think she's amazing, and if trained properly could learn to jump just fine. She's got the springs for sure.

I think the point most people are making on this thread is that this horse has been "trained". Using a pole. For some time, it would appear. Horses simply don't jump like this without having been poled excessively. If you go back and watch the video, you'll see she only jumps like that over the second jump. She clearly has been trained to go through a chute, and jumps the first small fence as if it's no big deal. The second fence produces an unnaturally severe effort on her behalf.

Do a search on the forum for the stallion's name. Many knowledgable individuals chimed in on the last one. The general concensus was that this horse has been conditioned to go through a chute with a pole. I don't think anyone doubted her jumping ability, but most would agree that it's impossible to see on this video, as this is likely no indication of how this horse will jump in a normal program.

Twix04
Apr. 7, 2009, 01:57 AM
Regardless of the poling issue, that stallion is *LOVELY*!

Is that a boat jump in the vid? Cool! But I wouldn't be caught dead galloping up to that in my lifetime...no thanks!:eek:

grayarabpony
Apr. 7, 2009, 02:04 AM
The horse in the first video is a stallion named Gesalme Z, licensed with Zangersheide in 2007.

http://www.efs-horses.nl/veulenveiling/paarden_outp_eng.php?id=101

HARROLDhasmyheart
Apr. 7, 2009, 02:30 AM
Holy moly! I like how the little note at the beginning says "pas facile," French for "not easy"...that's one way to describe it! :)

Moocow
Apr. 7, 2009, 03:38 PM
Though the horse is way over the jump, I kind of feel like the natural the natural technique isn't there... Maybe the horse will be pretty to look at but with hang time like that, it may never win a class! I worked with a few stallions like this.. spectacular to watch but not a chance in the ring. Now the horses I'm working with are not only scopey but the technique and quality are truly there!

Lady Counselor
Apr. 7, 2009, 05:03 PM
:eek:
Wow!
That first horse, OMG!
(wonder how they keep him in the paddock?)

FLIPPED HER HALO
Apr. 7, 2009, 05:07 PM
I know this is going to sound stupid, but what do you mean by she was poled?

Couture TB
Apr. 7, 2009, 05:23 PM
Ok I posted this on the last thread with these horses. I have seen how this is done. I went over to Germany to one of the top show jumping stables that sells and trains jumpers and also gets them ready for the inspections as a working student. I called it my weekend in the airports. I was at the stable for one whole day and saw more abuse then I have ever seen in my life. Horses being polled, barbed wire wrapped around rails, rails with electric wire for them to jump etc. There was one poor horse that if you made any clucking sound he went insane as he had been hit with a whip every time the rider clucked.

The most beautiful stable and horses I have ever seen, and I never wish to see their like again.

Carol Ames
Apr. 7, 2009, 05:41 PM
keep your head up, back flat, and land in your hels!:eek: hope it helps; He looks wonderful! What is his breeding?

Carol Ames
Apr. 7, 2009, 05:45 PM
Do plenty of dressage!:no:

jse
Apr. 7, 2009, 05:59 PM
The horse hasn't necessarily been poled, however it's very likely coming from Europe. Not to generalize, for sure it goes on here in the US as well but...
Any horse could be a freak when being sent through a jump shute but just knowing that it has a jump like that inside somewhere gives you chills sometimes!
Here's an example of a horse whose never been poled, just has it in em':
http://www.new.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1280646&l=99520cdecd&id=506924538

That's our 4 YO. I must say even with a person on her back, she's got amazing scope though. My husband squeals every time they land! LOL:lol:

IsolaBella09
Apr. 7, 2009, 06:25 PM
The horse hasn't necessarily been poled, however it's very likely coming from Europe. Not to generalize, for sure it goes on here in the US as well but...
Any horse could be a freak when being sent through a jump shute but just knowing that it has a jump like that inside somewhere gives you chills sometimes!
Here's an example of a horse whose never been poled, just has it in em':
http://www.new.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1280646&l=99520cdecd&id=506924538

That's our 4 YO. I must say even with a person on her back, she's got amazing scope though. My husband squeals every time they land! LOL:lol:


I want her. :lol:

jse
Apr. 7, 2009, 06:30 PM
I want her. :lol:

:D She's very special to us. I have a feeling we're going to have a hard time selling her one day. Not because she's bad but cause we love her too much!!

tidy rabbit
Apr. 7, 2009, 06:49 PM
I know this is going to sound stupid, but what do you mean by she was poled?

It's not a stupid question and it's rather nice to know that its not so common that everyone knows what poling is.

It is the practice of smacking the horses legs with a bamboo pole or a metal pole, or as I've seen it a metal pole wrapped heavy with padding and duct tape. When the horse goes over the jump, a person on either side of the jump each holding an end of the pole, will raise up the pole at just the right time and hit the horses legs with it.

I've also seen one dumb ass take a 1" metal pipe 12' long and put it in jump cups 6 inches higher than the wood pole. The horse can't see the metal pole and will hit it. A very dirty, and dangerous, trick to pull on your horse. This guy would do it undersaddle. Too bad the pole didn't bounce up and pierce HIS knoggin. Oh, and this guy is or was a vet too. Clearly he always had the horses best interests in mind. <rolleyes>

Wonders12
Apr. 7, 2009, 06:53 PM
I know this is going to sound stupid, but what do you mean by she was poled?

It's where you ask a horse to jump, then pick up the poll while he's mid-air so he hits his front legs on it. It makes them jump higher and pick up their knees. Sometimes it's done with a broomstick, etc instead of the actual jump, but it's the same idea.

(And the fact that you don' know is probably a GOOD thing :yes:)

tidy rabbit
Apr. 7, 2009, 07:00 PM
It's where you ask a horse to jump, then pick up the poll while he's mid-air so he hits his front legs on it. It makes them jump higher and pick up their knees. Sometimes it's done with a broomstick, etc instead of the actual jump, but it's the same idea.

(And the fact that you don' know is probably a GOOD thing :yes:)

A broom stick? The actual jump? If you're gonna pole a horse at least do it correctly! ;)

La Gringa
Apr. 8, 2009, 12:43 AM
Not that long ago Poling was still legal in the US with a bamboo pole. I personally don't find it cruel with bamboo..

With spiked anything yes..that's just plain wrong and cruel


In Europe, the have banned the plastic chair roller mats with the spikes on the backside, for office chairs. People have used that stuff on poles to get horses to jump more carefully it seems.

That's just plain cruel.

There have been well known riders, German riders I believe that have been caught putting plastic shards in bandages too, during grand prix, so that the horses are afraid to touch anything.. Majorly Illegal.

People do crap all the time though.. illegal or not, just like drugging.

SaturdayNightLive
Apr. 8, 2009, 01:20 AM
There have been well known riders, German riders I believe that have been caught putting plastic shards in bandages too, during grand prix, so that the horses are afraid to touch anything..

There is a well known American rider who was caught doing the same thing...

Pirateer
Apr. 8, 2009, 05:45 AM
There is a well known American rider who was caught doing the same thing...

Oh SNL- remember, he was exonerated ;)
Don't want anyone namedropping on us and telling us how naughty we are for talking about him ;)

jse
Apr. 8, 2009, 09:07 AM
There is a well known American rider who was caught doing the same thing...

Can we please just not go here? It's been hashed and hashed over again and again. And again.
No matter what anyone says poling/tuning up/burning, happens. More often than you think. Is it right? No. But that too, has been hashed out and discussed over and over again.

Koniucha
Apr. 8, 2009, 10:46 AM
Do we know for a fact that this horse has been poled or are you guys just saying that?

jse
Apr. 8, 2009, 11:01 AM
Do we know for a fact that this horse has been poled or are you guys just saying that?

People are just saying that. Nobody knows for certain. I'm trying to say it could or couldn't be. Some horses have natural talent. However, you can't excuse the fact that it COULD have been poled.

SaturdayNightLive
Apr. 8, 2009, 12:06 PM
People are just saying that. Nobody knows for certain. I'm trying to say it could or couldn't be. Some horses have natural talent. However, you can't excuse the fact that it COULD have been poled.

Talent has nothing to do with it. The horse very obviously has scope, but nothing over jumps like that without having been prepped.

And as for the rider with the sketchy boots, somebody mentioned that there were riders in Germany that do that. I was simply making sure nobody thought us Americans to be superior in any way because they thought that only the Germans use this particular technique. If I actually wanted a train wreck I would probably use his name and then wonder aloud whether the recent horse mix up was all a dirty plot. ;) Edited to add - no I don't actually think the mix up was a plot, just saying, if I wanted to start a train wreck....

Hauwse
Apr. 8, 2009, 02:14 PM
The horse can definitely jump; however his jump is not any more spectacular than a lot of the horse you see doing the GP route. The majority of the horses doing the GP routes at the top level can jump a good 7' with a rider on them, and with no shenanigans involved.

La Gringa
Apr. 8, 2009, 11:15 PM
Well, given the filly's dad's talent, I think she has more going for her than against. We really can't tell much from one video.


If she shows up someday and gets famous, we will know then won't we.

In referral to the American doing the dirty deeds... I have no association..


I personally have seen the chair roller mats used in the states in training barns.. to remain nameless too...

Have you seen the spikes on the back of one of those? They kill your hands to move them around the office. It may as well be barbed wire.

:eek:

jse
Apr. 9, 2009, 01:23 AM
Talent has nothing to do with it. The horse very obviously has scope, but nothing over jumps like that without having been prepped.

And as for the rider with the sketchy boots, somebody mentioned that there were riders in Germany that do that. I was simply making sure nobody thought us Americans to be superior in any way because they thought that only the Germans use this particular technique. If I actually wanted a train wreck I would probably use his name and then wonder aloud whether the recent horse mix up was all a dirty plot. ;) Edited to add - no I don't actually think the mix up was a plot, just saying, if I wanted to start a train wreck....

I beg to differ with the talent comment.....go back earlier in this thread and check out the picture of my mare free jumping. Nothing was used to prep her for that picture, it's just in her. In fact, it was the first time being sent through a jump shute. So what might that be? Talent, natural talent.
I won't argue whether that horse has been poled or not because I don't know FOR SURE that is what has got it to the point of jumping the way it does. We all know what happens when we "assume".....
No one was suggesting that you were trying to create a train wreck, I was just saying let's stay away from that whole topic in itself. It's been tried and tested and eaten over and over and over again.

Pirateer
Apr. 9, 2009, 05:34 AM
I beg to differ with the talent comment.....go back earlier in this thread and check out the picture of my mare free jumping. Nothing was used to prep her for that picture, it's just in her. In fact, it was the first time being sent through a jump shute. So what might that be? Talent, natural talent.
I won't argue whether that horse has been poled or not because I don't know FOR SURE that is what has got it to the point of jumping the way it does. We all know what happens when we "assume".....
No one was suggesting that you were trying to create a train wreck, I was just saying let's stay away from that whole topic in itself. It's been tried and tested and eaten over and over and over again.


Your mare has a "natural" form over that jump. The original horse does not, indicating poling.

3eme
Apr. 9, 2009, 06:47 AM
No kidding - my mare was inseminated by Epsom just last week!

He was on my short list based on his description (uncomplicated, sane, brave) and the fact that he took a Korean rider to the Olympics. (What can I say, I have a soft spot...my best friend is Korean).

Then my husband saw some video footage of him, so :eek: :eek:

BABY EPSOM ARRIVING AT MY HOUSE IN ABOUT 11 MONTHS! woooo hoooo!!

Sansena
Apr. 9, 2009, 09:15 AM
Y'all are in a twitter over this horse's bascule, but he's hanging his knees.

Someone halfway through the thread posted their 4y.o whos' knees are around it's chin. THAT horse appears to have some natural ability...

jse
Apr. 9, 2009, 09:22 AM
Your mare has a "natural" form over that jump. The original horse does not, indicating poling.

Not arguing at all, I'm super aware that it's a high possibility that the horse has been poled. In fact, I wouldn't argue at all that there are tons of trainers and big named riders out there who are guilty of doing it way more than most people think. Which is why I feel like we shouldn't point fingers at just one of them like some people do and have done.
However, not sure if you've sent horses through jump shutes or not but if so, you've noticed the first few times you get a few horses that are incredibly spooky and jump the heck out of it even if it's a foot off the ground.


ETA: Another good example of something that hasn't been poled or tuned up:
http://www.geocities.com/xlankydollx/photo.jpg
As Di Athina daughter of As Di Villagana. Natural talent at it's best. Gotta love it!

jse
Apr. 9, 2009, 09:23 AM
Y'all are in a twitter over this horse's bascule, but he's hanging his knees.

Someone halfway through the thread posted their 4y.o whos' knees are around it's chin. THAT horse appears to have some natural ability...

That would be my mare! :D I'm not proud of her or anything! LOL

SaturdayNightLive
Apr. 9, 2009, 10:17 AM
I beg to differ with the talent comment.....go back earlier in this thread and check out the picture of my mare free jumping. Nothing was used to prep her for that picture, it's just in her. In fact, it was the first time being sent through a jump shute. So what might that be? Talent, natural talent.
I won't argue whether that horse has been poled or not because I don't know FOR SURE that is what has got it to the point of jumping the way it does. We all know what happens when we "assume".....
No one was suggesting that you were trying to create a train wreck, I was just saying let's stay away from that whole topic in itself. It's been tried and tested and eaten over and over and over again.

Yes, all young horses way over jump their first few times through the chute. However, the young horse in the first video is not going through the chute for the first, second, or even third time. Horses are prepped before they are tested. Nobody would be stupid enough to wait for the testing to put a horse through a chute for the first time.

3eme
Apr. 9, 2009, 11:32 AM
Not picking on this one post or anything, I just took it as an example (so apologies to superpony...):


those 2 videos are not the same horses, unfortunately. in the OP video, while its a crazy impressive bascule, its overly unnecessary. too much air time, and it seems like he literally jumps straight up. not really, but he goes a little too high instead of jumping foreward, i feel like he's jumping more UP instead of out, if that makes any sense. like, im imagining that with a super WIDE oxer, it could cause troubles for this horse and he'd easily hit back rails a lot from maybe not jumping ahead as much but jumping up. i dunnno. its impressive, but still inefficient. will make a good puissance horse, but otherwise, i cant see him being super competitive in grand prix unless he stops jumping straight up in a way.

Okay, here is what I find insanely funny about this thread. Armchair quarter-backing about whether or not the horse in the video has talent or not....

Inefficient, not natural talent, not talented at all...FOLKS THIS HORSE IS OF OLYMPIC CALIBER. He represented Korea in 2004. I believe he even had at least one clear round there. And all of that DESPITE his (eh hum) lack of
talent ... :p

jse
Apr. 9, 2009, 11:42 AM
Yes, all young horses way over jump their first few times through the chute. However, the young horse in the first video is not going through the chute for the first, second, or even third time. Horses are prepped before they are tested. Nobody would be stupid enough to wait for the testing to put a horse through a chute for the first time.

Ok, so considering that, they prep the horse at home, but new place, new jumps, new everything might = over jumping a bit. I know any horse I've ever taken away from home, when jumped at shows they are a bit more spooky at the things they've never seen before therefore they feel wonderful underneath you over the jumps.
Once again, I'm not arguing whether this is natural or not. I'm just saying poled or not poled....that horse has it in him and the first time I ever saw that video, which was like a year or more ago, I got chills.

I tend to like this one!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmGOjKokz6I&NR=1

ThatScaryChick
Apr. 9, 2009, 12:03 PM
ETA: Another good example of something that hasn't been poled or tuned up:
http://www.geocities.com/xlankydollx/photo.jpg
As Di Athina daughter of As Di Villagana. Natural talent at it's best. Gotta love it!

For a minute there, I thought the rider had no head. :eek: :lol:

Tap2Tango
Apr. 9, 2009, 12:10 PM
Not picking on this one post or anything, I just took it as an example (so apologies to superpony...):



Okay, here is what I find insanely funny about this thread. Armchair quarter-backing about whether or not the horse in the video has talent or not....

Inefficient, not natural talent, not talented at all...FOLKS THIS HORSE IS OF OLYMPIC CALIBER. He represented Korea in 2004. I believe he even had at least one clear round there. And all of that DESPITE his (eh hum) lack of
talent ... :p

Your post has me confused. Superpony is talking about the father of the horse who was posted in the first post. Nobody is questioning his talent as he is already proven. The issue has to do with his daughter and her unusal style. Perhaps you got the 2 confused??

jse
Apr. 9, 2009, 12:12 PM
For a minute there, I thought the rider had no head. :eek: :lol:

LOL! It's true!!! I never noticed that!

La Gringa
Apr. 9, 2009, 01:04 PM
Okay, here is what I find insanely funny about this thread. Armchair quarter-backing about whether or not the horse in the video has talent or not....


But isn't that what COTH is for? :lol::lol::lol::lol:

3eme
Apr. 9, 2009, 01:07 PM
Your post has me confused. Superpony is talking about the father of the horse who was posted in the first post. Nobody is questioning his talent as he is already proven. The issue has to do with his daughter and her unusal style. Perhaps you got the 2 confused??

Ah, okay....maybe I am confused....

(happens to me a lot!)

:)

3eme
Apr. 9, 2009, 01:17 PM
But isn't that what COTH is for? :lol::lol::lol::lol:

yes my dear gringa, of course! but don't forget, we are also here for: hairnet advice, NAMING your horse, defining acceptable shirt / jacket color combos, confirming that yes indeed your trainer is a putz, AND yelling at anyone who doesn't wear a helmet!
:winkgrin::winkgrin::winkgrin:

Hauwse
Apr. 9, 2009, 02:12 PM
Well, given the filly's dad's talent, I think she has more going for her than against. We really can't tell much from one video.


If she shows up someday and gets famous, we will know then won't we.

In referral to the American doing the dirty deeds... I have no association..


I personally have seen the chair roller mats used in the states in training barns.. to remain nameless too...

Have you seen the spikes on the back of one of those? They kill your hands to move them around the office. It may as well be barbed wire.

:eek:

The idea behind the chair roller mats is not the same as polling. When you pole the intention is to hit their legs, induce pain, and give them incentive to jump better, or you trick them with hidden poles, and though I have heard bamboo mentioned, the majority of the time it is steel. The roller mat being part of the rail is intended to create a different feeling, it vibrates, something they are not accustomed to, and consequently causes them to pay more attention and/or avoid touching the rail altogether. Again being part of the rail there are no tricks involved, if they want to be really silly and lay on the rail then they get what they deserve, and if you are using true wood rails it is going to hurt carpet mat or not.

Most horse that are smart enough to judge the precise height of the fence are also smart enough to get their legs out of the way and only touch the rail with their hoofs.

You would never get the type effort this filly is exhibiting using carpet mats. This mare is jumping as hard as she can over a fence that is anything but scary. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind she has been tuned.

If notice, the guy working the whip is not supporting her forward movement he is prepared to let her have a good one if she stops. This is significant because in general once a horse understands the chute they will go through with little support once they are in it. A horse that associates abnormal pain with a jump is going to need a huge amount of encouragement to jump through.

Same thing happens with hand polling, once they make the connection between people standing next to the fence, and the pain it can be a struggle to get them to jump the fence.

This is one of the reasons why the carpet mat is a kinder, gentler method, the horse figures out on their own to respect the fence, and in my experience I have never seen a horse even cut using carpet mats even if they lay on the rail.

dags
Apr. 9, 2009, 02:24 PM
Since this would be the third time I've logged in with a comment on this particular video in the past year or so, I'm just going to "ditto" what Hauwse said and save everyone the time :D

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
Apr. 9, 2009, 02:36 PM
Ok, so considering that, they prep the horse at home, but new place, new jumps, new everything might = over jumping a bit. I know any horse I've ever taken away from home, when jumped at shows they are a bit more spooky at the things they've never seen before therefore they feel wonderful underneath you over the jumps.
Once again, I'm not arguing whether this is natural or not. I'm just saying poled or not poled....that horse has it in him and the first time I ever saw that video, which was like a year or more ago, I got chills.

I tend to like this one!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmGOjKokz6I&NR=1

Did you notice the man with the whip at the horse's ankles as he was taking off?? I don't know if that's SOP at inspections (I am going to say it's not), but seeing as it's pretty easy to make any horse jump like that by using a whip at take-off, I would rather not see it. It shows me immediately that a young horse needs something OTHER than its natural ability to showcase its talent in a chute. Which defeats the purpose of the chute in general.

fargaloo
Apr. 9, 2009, 03:06 PM
Aside from the issue of "teaching" scope or a tidy front end through fear of pain, I want to point out that bamboo is not a safe material under any circumstances. Ski racers long ago abandoned the use of bamboo slalom poles because bamboo can splinter and impale on impact. When I was a ski instructor way back in the Pleistocene, the head of the ski school would tell a highly nauseating story about a crash during a race where a bamboo pole entered the racer's thigh in one piece and exited in several places....

arena run
Apr. 9, 2009, 03:20 PM
]How can you judge an entire future of a horse from one video?
[/U]
I would make that decision after seeing it do the exercise a few more times., and then seeing what she can do with some training and a person on her back. She might mellow out just fine and carry through.

It's a mare too.. the daughter of the second horse posted.

I think she's amazing, and if trained properly could learn to jump just fine. She's got the springs for sure.

Indeed. Thank you for pointing that out... well put. sylvia

La Gringa
Apr. 9, 2009, 04:03 PM
The idea behind the chair roller mats is not the same as polling. When you pole the intention is to hit their legs, induce pain, and give them incentive to jump better, or you trick them with hidden poles, and though I have heard bamboo mentioned, the majority of the time it is steel. The roller mat being part of the rail is intended to create a different feeling, it vibrates, something they are not accustomed to, and consequently causes them to pay more attention and/or avoid touching the rail altogether. Again being part of the rail there are no tricks involved, if they want to be really silly and lay on the rail then they get what they deserve, and if you are using true wood rails it is going to hurt carpet mat or not.

Most horse that are smart enough to judge the precise height of the fence are also smart enough to get their legs out of the way and only touch the rail with their hoofs.

You would never get the type effort this filly is exhibiting using carpet mats. This mare is jumping as hard as she can over a fence that is anything but scary. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind she has been tuned.

If notice, the guy working the whip is not supporting her forward movement he is prepared to let her have a good one if she stops. This is significant because in general once a horse understands the chute they will go through with little support once they are in it. A horse that associates abnormal pain with a jump is going to need a huge amount of encouragement to jump through.

Same thing happens with hand polling, once they make the connection between people standing next to the fence, and the pain it can be a struggle to get them to jump the fence.

This is one of the reasons why the carpet mat is a kinder, gentler method, the horse figures out on their own to respect the fence, and in my experience I have never seen a horse even cut using carpet mats even if they lay on the rail.

I doni't think the carpet mat is kinder. I am talking about the plastic mats with the spikes on the back. What I saw was the spiked part outside.. the mat was rolled around the pole with spikes out! I was horrified.

It was intended to cause pain, not just to rattle.

Also, when the poling was legal in the US, they only were allowed to use bamboo. I personally haven't seen the metal.

Hauwse
Apr. 10, 2009, 01:56 AM
I doni't think the carpet mat is kinder. I am talking about the plastic mats with the spikes on the back. What I saw was the spiked part outside.. the mat was rolled around the pole with spikes out! I was horrified.

It was intended to cause pain, not just to rattle.

Also, when the poling was legal in the US, they only were allowed to use bamboo. I personally haven't seen the metal.

You are correct about the type of mat and method used. It is supposed to be wrapped around the pole with the nubs sticking up. However the basic idea of tuning a horse with the mat is to get them to figure out on their own without diminishing their confidence and trust that they need to respect the rails, period, and it usually used early on in their training. There are no false poles, no one there to heave a poll at their legs regardless of whether they are jumping clean or not, nothing that is going to do damage like tacks or nails, no electrical charges running over the rail. These are some of the methods used that lead to a loss of confidence and trust. The mat is intended to be used just as I stated. It is not used to hurt or scare them in anyway, it is intended to create a sensation that they dislike and consequently avoid.

Consider the first time you ever put a pair of clippers to a young horse’s ear, there was probably some drama, and if we did not force the issue you would get drama every time you tried to do their ears. It is only through exposure and reassurance that they come to understand that it is nothing to fear, it may be annoying, but it is not life threatening. It is the same with the mat, except we do not expose them to it to the point that they get used to it, frankly because once they touch it the first time they don't touch it again..... lesson learned, don't touch the rail or its going to buzz you.

If anyone is using the mat differently they are using the mat wrong, period, as it will not have any affect on a horse prone to laying on a rail, and any young horse that shows signs of being laying on the rail lazy has a very limited career indeed and is not worth educating any further, perhaps a school horse, dressage, trail, but not a hunter/jumper.


Unfortunately there are a lot of horses that show some talent or that people get caught up in and waste a great amount of time trying to cure, and there are of course those that are looking for a quick fix to a short term problem like the next GP class, and there are those who just lack the empathy required to be involved with horses, but do not see it because they do not possess the empathy to begin with, and this is where all the crazy tuning comes in. While bamboo was legal it was not the tuning method of choice, and is not today, those who go down that road have much more creative ways of tuning a horse than a bamboo pole, not to mention it is not very sturdy, and the for the chronic rubber will have very little impact.

My guess on this filly is the electrical pole as she is jumping so hard, which apparently tends to happen since the horse can feel the electrical current even when they are not touching it. It is sad, and the mare may very well be talented, but I am guessing there was something going on that indicated she would not make it as a big fence horse without some serious intervention.

I think it was Denemethy that stated in one of his books or articles regarding evaluating prospects that such exuberance over such a small fence told him all he needed to know about the horse, and not in the good way.

CoolMeadows
Apr. 10, 2009, 05:29 AM
Ok, I admit I don't get the hype over this horse. I have one that free jumped much like this one a 3 year old - massive scope, ridiculous bascule and slightly over the shoulder as a powerfully hind-end driven greenie will often be. The horse did have many show up to see her but at all were disappointed that she wasn't already cantering 3' courses under saddle in spite of pushing 17h as a baby....?? Needless to say I pulled the future star off the market after breaking her and now have a slightly butt-high but massively talented huge 4 year old with a ridiculously huge although impractical jump for a competive jumper... that Youtube youngster is in no way a practical under saddle jumper although clearly scopey. No doubt that one will also learn to use its body better but having freejumped hundreds of babies, I don't get the poling reference. :confused: Many a youngster will free jump with an over-exaggerated bascule and under developed shoulder/knee by nature. I would never assume this youngster has been poled and if it has, they FAILED with the knees! It will tidy up in front with maturity and under saddle gymnastic excercises but that looks like a fairly typical talented, scopey, extreme-basculed over the shoulder youngster to me... as they say "the hind end is by nature and the front end can always be improved". Nice horse.

Hauwse
Apr. 10, 2009, 11:34 AM
Ok, I admit I don't get the hype over this horse. I have one that free jumped much like this one a 3 year old - massive scope, ridiculous bascule and slightly over the shoulder as a powerfully hind-end driven greenie will often be. The horse did have many show up to see her but at all were disappointed that she wasn't already cantering 3' courses under saddle in spite of pushing 17h as a baby....?? Needless to say I pulled the future star off the market after breaking her and now have a slightly butt-high but massively talented huge 4 year old with a ridiculously huge although impractical jump for a competive jumper... that Youtube youngster is in no way a practical under saddle jumper although clearly scopey. No doubt that one will also learn to use its body better but having freejumped hundreds of babies, I don't get the poling reference. :confused: Many a youngster will free jump with an over-exaggerated bascule and under developed shoulder/knee by nature. I would never assume this youngster has been poled and if it has, they FAILED with the knees! It will tidy up in front with maturity and under saddle gymnastic excercises but that looks like a fairly typical talented, scopey, extreme-basculed over the shoulder youngster to me... as they say "the hind end is by nature and the front end can always be improved". Nice horse.


I agree you will see youngsters jump like this. However you will also see them look at the fence, they tend to jump everything that way, and they get over it as they get used to the idea. Using their front end properly is not necessarily going to be accomplished through polling either, especially if they have inherent scope and are just lazy jumpers. Bottom line is we really don't know, but I would certainly have my suspicions.

DMK
Apr. 10, 2009, 12:32 PM
OK, let's accept she has been tuned. Does anyone think she was the ONLY one who came into the test with tuning? Like maybe her farm was the only one that knew how to tune a horse for the test? Beggars the imagination doesn't it? But yet how many other "tuned" horses jump like that?

And yes, she was definitely over her shoulder, but given how close she got to the base from overjumping the previous element, that's not too surprising. It would be nice to see the same horse relaxed and easy through the grid, but I think it still reamins that more horses than not probably get tuned going into the test, but not all of them (or any of them) produce that jump.

Carol Ames
Apr. 12, 2009, 06:55 PM
I recall clearly when Rodney was asked a similar question; his response "Man ! I love :lol:horses with that problem;" remember the three criteria a for a jumper are: 1. jump clean 2. turn well, 3. go fast!





riginally Posted by theroanypony http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=4002901#post4002901) Yeah, I remember people saying what a terrible jumper he'd be because he'd waste so much time in the air.

NEIGH-HAM
Apr. 12, 2009, 07:23 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM4GTe_d58E&feature=related

I beleive...if someone wants to check the actual website to be sure, that this horse in the video above is the sire of the one below

[QUOTE=La Gringa;4002816]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqG4PNbmSfQ

NEIGH-HAM
Apr. 12, 2009, 07:26 PM
You know, poled or not, I would not have wanted to be riding that horse while doing that jump myself:eek:

Beam me up Scotty:lol: