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Trees4U
Apr. 6, 2009, 04:15 PM
Has anyone had experience with injecting estrogen for stifle issues? Any infor or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

vxf111
Apr. 6, 2009, 04:30 PM
Esterone? Tried it, did nothing for my horse. 2 other horses at the barn used it at the same time and saw marked improvement. I think it matters a great deal WHY the stifles are problematic, and not every horse sees results. I also think it matters how frequently you inject, I don't think my horse had enough Esterone over a significant enough period. :(

It also made my horse ANGRY, which is an odd side effect but one that the vet says he has heard of before.

trottingfilly
Apr. 6, 2009, 04:39 PM
I often use ECP for weak stifles. I have a two year old right now that has a stifle that locks. He gets an ECP shot every two weeks and like clockwork on around day 12 his stifle starts sticking. Give him a shot and he's perfect again.
I deal mainly in youngstock whose stifle problems are generally weakness issues that go away as they get in shape. I find ECP very helpful with this kind.

ThoroughbredFancy
Apr. 6, 2009, 04:49 PM
My friends horse has string-halt in both stifles. She used some time of hormone therapy, can't remember what exactly, but it was injections and he made a little bit of improvement but not significantly enough to keep using it.

Gunnar
Apr. 6, 2009, 04:59 PM
It is Esterone (sp?) not Estrogen! ;) mY PSSMy Belgian X did not benefit from the shots! :no:

JB
Apr. 6, 2009, 05:32 PM
Estrone is 1 of 3 types of estrogen ;)

Estradiol and estriol are the other 2 estrogen forms.

At one point I researched the differences as it related to use for catching/locking stifles, and while I can't recall for sure, it seemed that estradiol was a more efficient form, but I can't remember why.

Laurierace
Apr. 6, 2009, 06:32 PM
Right it is estrone which is a form of estrogen. I have seen it work virtual miracles in some horses. At worst it has no effect, at best you have a new horse.

kiwifruit
Apr. 6, 2009, 07:06 PM
I used it for my horse who was basically sound but was a bit uneven going one direction. Vet suggested estrone to help out and build some muscle while bringing him along but I really didn't see too much improvement on both. It is relatively cheap and something to try. Worked really good on my old event horse that has sticky stifles and would lock once in awhile

Cowgirl
Apr. 6, 2009, 08:00 PM
I did a monthly shot on a gelding who had hyper-extended his right hind stifle. It was weak/loose after that. With the estrone shots, it tightened up and he moved as he did before his injury. Plus it made him very sweet. :-)

kcmel
Apr. 6, 2009, 08:55 PM
I found it helped quite a bit with my gelding, plus it mellowed him out a little which was nice.

WW_Queen
Apr. 6, 2009, 11:00 PM
Yes it did seem to help my gelding with a loose stifle, however it was done in conjunction with wedge pads on his hinds. Once the pads came off he has not had the problem since.

RAyers
Apr. 6, 2009, 11:45 PM
Estrone/estrogen directly binds to the ligaments causing laxity. This is how women are able give birth. The laxity enables the ligaments to stretch allowing the baby to pass through the pelvis.

In the case of stifles, it supposedly lets them stretch and re-align in the joint groove, reducing impingement and inflammation.

Studies show that women have greater chance of ligament tears when menstruating due to increased estrogen concentrations in the ligaments.

Reed

Ames
Apr. 7, 2009, 08:11 AM
used it with great success:) Now I'm told estrone is no longer being made so when I do use it, I use thelan - not sure if it's the same stuff with a diff name though...

NorCalDressage
Apr. 7, 2009, 10:46 AM
So, what is the protocol with this treatment? Is it a one time injection or several?

What is the recovery time, i.e. are they stalled for a certain time, how long to see full benefits?

For those that have done this, what was the cost approx?

JB
Apr. 7, 2009, 12:04 PM
So, what is the protocol with this treatment? Is it a one time injection or several?
My vet's preferred method is 3 shots a week apart. She feels if you're going to see improvement, you'll see it by then. She doesn't have a problem with a 4th shot, especially if you're borderline seeing results - some horses might really just need more. She thinks 5 is a waste if you aren't seeing changes at 4.

After that, it's up to what the horse is telling you. She sees some who don't need anything beyond that. Others required weekly injections to maintain improvement, and that isn't feasible for some owners.


What is the recovery time, i.e. are they stalled for a certain time, how long to see full benefits?
Keep working, appropriate for the horse's fitness and issue.


For those that have done this, what was the cost approx?
I wanna say mine (estradiol, not estrone, IIRC) was about $10/shot, but don't quote me on that. It wasn't nearly what Adequan is, I know that, and I was surprised at how relatively inexpensive, but certainly not *cheap*, it was.

Dune
Apr. 7, 2009, 12:22 PM
So, what is the protocol with this treatment? Is it a one time injection or several?

What is the recovery time, i.e. are they stalled for a certain time, how long to see full benefits?

For those that have done this, what was the cost approx?

Just wanted to add, it's a series of IM injections, so no recovery time/stall time like you might have with joint injections.

Laurierace
Apr. 7, 2009, 12:51 PM
I do 5ccs every other day for a total of three shots, then as needed or 10ccs as a one time pre-race dose.

lstevenson
Apr. 7, 2009, 01:05 PM
It's worked great on every horse I've seen it used on.

Summit Springs Farm
Apr. 7, 2009, 01:06 PM
What do you look for in a weak stifle? How do you know if you need the injection, or is it a well let's try it thing?

NorCalDressage
Apr. 7, 2009, 08:50 PM
Thanks for your responses -

I guess I'm wondering, if it induces ligament laxity, aren't horses that are on this prone to other ligament injuries (esp. after reading RAyers post)?

It seems some people feel this makes their horses "stronger" in the stifle or able to perform more difficult work when on the injections....I guess I'm confused....

Ames
Apr. 8, 2009, 08:13 AM
if they are losing or catching their stifle just in general, then this might be a good option. I know that hill work just in general is very good at strengthening stifles without a pharma aid. I *believe* that a weak stifle has the ligaments around the joint becoming very loose and the joint moves aroudn too much - especially noticeable in the canter. The estrone injections firm up the ligaments, and add that to the hill work which strengthens those connections as well, it causes the stifle joint to better be kept in place so there is no slippage.

At least, that is my understanding :)

tradewind
Apr. 8, 2009, 08:34 AM
One of my horses had very very bad stifles, as in both. He was prescribed estrone. Along with that he also had to be worked religiously up and down hills, and various other forms of hind end building exercise. The estrone did help quite a bit but I do not believe it would have worked completely on its own. It has to be combined with the proper types of exercise.

Trees4U
Apr. 8, 2009, 09:05 AM
Thanks for all your replies.

Like talking to friends and getting their opinions..;);)

sunny59
Apr. 8, 2009, 03:39 PM
Estrone/estrogen directly binds to the ligaments causing laxity. This is how women are able give birth. The laxity enables the ligaments to stretch allowing the baby to pass through the pelvis.

In the case of stifles, it supposedly lets them stretch and re-align in the joint groove, reducing impingement and inflammation.

Studies show that women have greater chance of ligament tears when menstruating due to increased estrogen concentrations in the ligaments.

Reed

I'm confused then, I thought stifle issues were caused by lax ligaments, that's why one traditional treatment is to blister to tighten them up?

desertmyst
Jan. 13, 2010, 12:03 PM
Bump because this sounded interesting....

Are there any links to more information?

Is this something you have to go to the vet everytime to get, or can you do it on your own? (not sure if it's just IM)

Do vets know about it? Or will my vet think i'm crazy if I ask? ;)

wlrottge
Jan. 13, 2010, 04:20 PM
We treated one of ours with it once. It was as series of shots given every so many days, but I don't remember the schedule. I don't think we saw much result from it, but... it's been a while.

The vet explained that it works by loosening the ligaments in the stifle. He said that you can observe this phenomenon in pregnant mares that are close to term. Their stifles will be quite loose b/c of the high levels of estrogen compounds in their system.

farmgirl
Jan. 13, 2010, 06:26 PM
I think it is confusing as well. I believe my horse hyper-extended his left stifle when he spooked on concrete. As he has become less and less fit, he clearly locks his stifle and veterinarians are better able to see/diagnose. Blistering did not help nor did joint injections ...at all.

One vet I talked with says it relaxes the ligaments; if you look at the Atlanta Equine Clinic website http://www.atlantaequine.com/pages/client_lib.html , it says "The presence of estrogen within the body of the horse may increase tension of various supporting ligaments." The vet who said it relaxes the ligaments also recommended surgery, but in the next breath said he is caring for a horse the estrone (?) worked wonders.

So, thoughts anyone? I wonder if, in horses blistering does not help, perhaps an estrogen product might.

cottagefarm
Jan. 13, 2010, 06:41 PM
I'm confused somewhat too as I wanted to use it on a young mare and one vet told me he didn't like to use it on mares but only on geldings. I guess becuase on messing wiht the hormaone levels in a cycling mare:confused:

She did inprove with hill work and trails. No tight circles etc.

lstevenson
Jan. 13, 2010, 08:51 PM
Bump because this sounded interesting....

Are there any links to more information?

Is this something you have to go to the vet everytime to get, or can you do it on your own? (not sure if it's just IM)

Do vets know about it? Or will my vet think i'm crazy if I ask? ;)


It's a weekly IM shot, and yes your vet should know about it...it's quite common nowadays.

And it works great on geldings and mares.

desertmyst
Jan. 14, 2010, 10:25 AM
So I called the vet and left a message to see what she said...in the meantime a friend saw that our local horsey pharmacy place has the Estrone....

Estrone Aqueous 5mg\ml Supsension Inj...10ml

What dosage would you give? Is this what people have used? Any side effects besides the "grumpy" horse that was on this thread?

THANKS!!

farmgirl
Jul. 6, 2010, 10:53 AM
Hi Everyone, I would like to continue this discussion if anyone is interested. My horse has been blistered 3 x - once last fall, which included the muscle area with no improvement. He was then blistered twice this spring - this time the ligament as opposed to all the muscle area. Again - no real improvement. This veterinarian recommended the ligament splitting with stall rest. I am reluctant to try that, as there seems to be two camps on how to rehab those horses and until I understand the differences, I find it worrysome.

I am now using a veterinarian who also does acupunture, and she recommended the estrone. He had 3 injections a week apart, with some improvement. (Her recommended dosage is 3 x, maybe 4 as another poster mentioned. I gave him the 4th shot, and in 24 hours, he was significantly better. After 2 weeks, he began catching again - so another shot. Again, significantly better.

I talked to one veterinarian by phone who gives a double dose of estrone, but I don't remember how frequently. I am trying to make an appointment with him - he travels quite a bit.

It appears there are many suggested courses of treatment using estrone. Could folks with experience weigh in again here? And, is there concern with ligament tearing as RAyers mentioned in people? Thx, fg

JB
Jul. 6, 2010, 11:06 AM
farmgirl, you should PM EqTrainer as she just had the splitting surgery done on her horse. She has a thread on it somewhere, but it's been almost a week now and I don't believe I've seen a recent update on how he's doing. But, it was a quick and easy surgery.

Honestly, after everything you've tried, it probably IS time for the surgery.

katarine
Jul. 6, 2010, 11:14 AM
Again I want someone to find a reputable article/source that details what to use for WHICH stifle issue. Too loose, too tight- two different issues.

I'm using Esterone 5 cc IM once a week to deal with too TIGHT stifles. I needed those ligaments loosened. We are just staying on this through the Fall then I'l try again at once every two weeks.

Isn't blistering used to tighten lax stifles? So why follow blistering..with Esterone? that makes zero sense to me.

what gives, vets??

farmgirl
Jul. 6, 2010, 11:16 AM
Thanks JB - you may very well be right. I'm ok with the surgery idea - it is the rehab (and conflicting rehabilitation) that worries me. I followed the thread EQtrainer started with great interest. I've appreciated all of your posts regarding stifle problems. Thanks again, fg

farmgirl
Jul. 6, 2010, 11:19 AM
Katarine, If I understood correctly, what the acupunturist/veterinarian told me is that the blistering tightens the stifle ligaments and the estrone relaxes the pelvic ligaments allowing the horse to use his/her hind leg in a different manner. She uses them concurrently.

katarine
Jul. 6, 2010, 11:37 AM
aaaahhhhhhhhhhh- interesting.

lstevenson
Jul. 6, 2010, 12:53 PM
After 2 weeks, he began catching again - so another shot. Again, significantly better.


The point of using the Estrone is that you use the time during the injections to build strength in the area with judicious exercise. Increasing work on hills, cavelleti's, ect. It won't do a whole lot by itself in the long run unless you do this.

farmgirl
Jul. 7, 2010, 05:05 PM
Hi lsteventson, I appreciate your input. Part of the frustration of this is I have been doing hills, etc. and he is still catching.

Claudius
Jul. 7, 2010, 06:31 PM
Is anyone else doing this along with all of the above? I have found this type of shoeing makes a huge difference in a horse prone to locking stifles. I have never used wedge pads, but back the toe up as much as possible, slightly square shoe at toe, take nothing off the heels when trimming, and having a slight trailer on the outside heel.

lstevenson
Jul. 7, 2010, 09:48 PM
Hi lsteventson, I appreciate your input. Part of the frustration of this is I have been doing hills, etc. and he is still catching.


That's great, but just remember that it takes quite a bit of time to build up strength, especially in an area that has been inherently weak in a horse. You may see some change in 6 weeks, but it may be more like 6 months to a year of hard work before the horse is strong in that area.

Also make sure you have a good farrier, as hoof balance is crutial.

katarine
Jul. 8, 2010, 09:31 AM
We definitely snubbed off Chip's hind toes, added shoes to help retain that shape, but no trailers on those shoes, no. and no wedges, no.

I'll get pics of his hinds tomorrow, he's getting a fresh set then.

and we dragged the fool out of a small tire, climbed hills with his nose at his knees, made sure I didn't let him cheat and go wide behind climbing those hills (shifting his hips L or R every few strides kept him in tight and working honestly- we do cavallettis, and long straight lines. I actually did see improvement in about 6 weeks, but he is not so bad as the OPs horse- remember- no longeing, no circles. Not for a long while.

farmgirl
Jul. 13, 2010, 06:12 PM
Thanks, lstevenson - it is helpful to have an extended time frame.