Young/developing Event horses and lead changes

[yellowbritches]

So, I'm having an inner debate with myself regarding schooling changes for jumping on Vernon. I tend to not try and worry about changes too much on a young horse, especially one that will hopefully move on to the upper levels at some point (where counter canter will be necessary), and just try to ride them balanced and accept the occasional natural lead change with gratefulness that the horse is athletic enough to do it. But, after watching a client's green horse do lovely lead changes over the weekend in a show jumping round at a CT, I was kinda jealous that Vernon doesn't do them. He CAN and will, but I never ever school them. I will ask for the hell of it on occasion when I'm jumping (and usually get them), but I don't make a big fuss if I don't and will either just do a quick simple or, because he is so balanced, just counter canter to the next fence.

I'm wondering if I'm wrong about this, though. The boss can go either way. He doesn't really care if Vernon does nice changes this early on in his career, but I know he also loves to play with changes, especially on a horse who does them well. This is where I get jealous of other disciplines. Dressage riders don't do changes until the counter canter is well and truly established. Hunters and jumpers feel the changes are almost as important as the jumping. Us event riders, especially with horses aimed to the upper levels are stuck in a quagmire...do we teach changes early on for smoother, easier jump rounds and risk some confusion when it is time to work on counter canter, or do we sacrifice the changes in jumping for better canter work in the dressage? What do you all think?

For the record, Vernon has started to school a little counter canter, but it has been put on the back burner for a bit while we work on some other things.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Your poll didn't quite give me the choice I wanted.

I start asking for the change over a fence very very early on...as in not long after they start cantering fences. I start working on the flying changes when they are going training level....by then, they should already be doing some counter canter work in their dressage training.

I do always try (try being an important word here ;) ) and fix the leads on course no matter what. Even it means we end up trotting a fence. Hate counter cantering or worse, cross cantering, to any fence and see very little training reason to let a horse do it.

[purplnurpl]

I didin't start my horse on changes and now he's 8 and I'm paying for it.

He changes by himself when jumping but I'm having issues in the dressage. And now there's like 50 million changes in the A tests.

Figure counter and true have their own aides. The horse should listen to them.
I think having a horse that always wants to change is way better than having a horse that won't. You may screw up a counter from time to time but you'll always get your change points. If you have no change then you are 100% SOL and have to take 2s and 3s for crap changes EVERYTIME.

[GotSpots]

We don't "school" the changes with the young horses. Most of our youngsters are focused on being balanced and taking care of their footwork and they will change up naturally on course. On the flat, most young ones aren't really yet strong enough to do a correct change from behind as in a dressage test, and in general I think drilling them just makes them a little frantic about the change. I'd rather have one changing comfortably and naturally on course by going forward and balanced and switching straight through the change then starting to rush through them (which really will make teaching the dressage test change difficult). As they get stronger, more balanced, and more comfortable moving off the leg, the proper change comes pretty naturally.

[Lincoln]

Slight divergence to get back to your question: I have watched so many nicely balanced dressage horses who would otherwise have good changes struggle to relearn them after being counter-cantered a lot. So... call me a Philistine, but I am a fan of encouraging horses to balance themselves by being on the correct lead and not worrying much about counter canter until the horse has enough strength in collection to hold it.

I haven't had a horse that was naturally balanced enough to counter or cross-canter to a fence and feel good, though....so the "ick" factor is motivating.

In the eventing context, it's a little unfair, I think, to school horses in counter canter when they're still pretty green and then ask them to be safe to jumps. I know this isn't your question, but I think it goes to the answer - the goal is to help them learn to be balanced with a rider on their back and on the correct lead, but don't make a huge deal of "the changes" (like Bornfree said, just try). If you go back to trot that's fine, but the goal is to stay balanced. Some horses just get sick of canter-trot-canter and change on their own (in one direction, anyway) others take longer. You can definitely help them out by setting them up well for the changes between the fences and if you get it - pat, pat and then a fun jump. It's ultimately safer (like Bornfree) for horses to get to the jumps with balance and impulsion - which is hard to do from a counter or cross canter.

Hope this helps.

[Bobthehorse]

No choice for me in the poll, really. I let my horse decide. Bob knows changes, he will do them if he thinks he has to, but if he doesnt think he has to, no amount of trying will make him. I feel like if I schooled them with him, he would bomb his counter canters in dressage. So I just let him have free run of leads in stadium, as long as I keep him forward and balanced its never a problem.

Young one has never been taught them, but does them on his own. Over the winter when we did gridwork, he would swap right before the turn at the end of every line, perfect and smooth too. So I have a feeling I will just leave him be in stadium and he can do them if he pleases as well. He is a very balanced horse anyway, so Im not worried.

[mjrtango93]

I didn't vote because it will give you a bad tally for what your asking, but we do a combo of 1 and 2. We do not "school" changes on the babies in a in the ring conventional way, but out hacking, no pressure change the lead, jump a fence and ask but carry on if nothing happens, that we do. It isn't that hard to teach a horse to counter canter after they have an established change, sometimes its easier because at least they know what lead they are supposed to be on. It is incredibly difficult however to teach a horse a change after they are more set. My current youngen has great changes jumping/hacking but has never really been asked for them in a schooling sense and not on the flat yet. He does counter canter, and will occasionally swap, but no more then any other 6 year old with alot of energy and long legs does.

[Fairview Horse Center]

How are they judged in the Young Event Horse courses? Will a smooth simple change be counted down?

I think asking for the changes depends on the talent of the rider. A hunter trainer that I know, can get the youngsters to cleanly change evey time I have seen her ask in sale trials. You don't realize she is doing it, and it is very smooth. This is on horses that it has never been asked before.

[Ajierene]

My mare is 14 and still does not know flying changes. We have worked on getting her to land on the appropriate lead over a jump - and she is good at that. Mostly she can do simple changes, though sometimes when she is hyped up she will just pick up the same lead. It is not something I had worried about, we only go Novice and have only done up to 1st level dressage.

In the past year, I suddenly realized that we had never even thought of this and started the process of teaching her a flying lead change, but as long as she is balanced going to the jump, it doesn't matter which lead she is on and I don't worry to much about it.

[Highflyer]

I've never gotten far enough along in the dressage to have it be a real concern, so I'm not in quite the same boat, but--.

Many of my horses have been off the track, and so at least somewhat familiar with changes anyway. I strongly prefer that they are on the right leads when jumping courses, and I'll ask for a simple change when I need to--but I find that my horses generally figure this out and start to do flying changes on their own without much schooling. In fact, my current guy now does really impressive ones, without having been taught at all. We're only just starting to school counter canter, and we only do it on the long side of the arena, so I think he totally doesn't associate it with changes.

[EventerAJ]

Depends on the horse. With any young horse, I'd try to avoid drilling them.

If changes come fairly naturally, then yes by all means do them. If the young horse appears to struggle with the concept, wait till later. Wait until the canter can be improved, with more strength and balance. They could be resistant to change because they are confused, or because they lack balance. Either way, I prefer not to start a fight about it. When it is time for the changes to "matter," you don't want a bunch of anticipation/tension issues to work through.

OTTBs are often (though not always) good with their changes. They may not do them 100% correctly, but they can do them well enough to get by in show jumping or in the YEH tests. They are certainly NOT required in the YEH test, but it can look snazzy doing a figure-8 for your gallop portion, with a flying change in the middle. :winkgrin:

[subk]

He CAN and will, but I never ever school them. I will ask for the hell of it on occasion when I'm jumping (and usually get them), but I don't make a big fuss if I don't and will either just do a quick simple or, because he is so balanced, just counter canter to the next fence.
I think you're already more than half way there. With a horse that is already or naturally well balanced I don't think you need to "school" them per say. In the normal course of your ride ask for it each time you need it. If he gives it a pat and praise. If not, don't make a fuss and ask for the simple. To me that's not really schooling. "Schooling" it means you do figure 8s with a cross rail in the center or some other exercise where the focus is the change. Don't focus on it just incorporate it into your jumping work.

The only difference in my suggestion and what you describe you do is that you only ask on occasion. I'd ask every time you need it and be consistent in always using the correct lead. When you counter canter the turn sometimes you are not sending the right message. If you're consistent lots of horses will pick it up just to avoid the simple. I think the thing that screws up the counter canter isn't the lead change, but the fuss created to teach it coming back to haunt you.

[asterix]

I'm on my first green horse -- on his own (with me on him) he will swap in front pretty easily but has not seemed to "lightbulb" the back end -- he is 6 and big and still growing (!!). I've seen him do clean neat changes when mr. asterix (who has no idea what is happening :lol:) is riding him, gets crooked, picks up the wrong lead...horse goes "zip" and pops back on the correct one.

His counter canter is very confirmed so for now I just do a simple change on course or let him counter canter, depending on the situation. He will also cross canter, which I really don't want him to do (did it today in sets, spooked at something, swapped up front, again, seems to have no idea he can do it behind), but with this horse, FORWARD to his fences in the ring is more important than anything else...he is plenty balanced, uphill, and barely steps over the novice fences, so he can darn well cross canter them if he has to.

We'll start his changes in the dressage ring when he's ready, and by then he will be strong enough that I expect them to start showing up both when I ask and when he needs them on the jump course.

This is a horse who is not easily flustered but whose hind end took a long time physically to catch up to his front end (draft cross), so I think he needs to be nice and strong to do them correctly, and it can happen when it happens.

[yellowbritches]

Thanks for all the varied and interesting thoughts and ideas! Very interesting to see what everyone else does and think. I am a little spoiled by this horse because of his balance and athleticism. Because he CAN canter smoothly and powerfully to a fence in counter canter, I've not really worried if he doesn't do the change. I think I will make a point of asking more consistently and maybe play out in the field with them a bit.

[RealityCheck]

I do think horses can (for the most part) differentiate between doing their changes in dressage vs. show jumping. My mare is pretty good at flying changes in show jumping, and she's actually now gotten to the point where she'll sometimes do auto changes when she sees the turn coming up. But, we've never schooled them in dressage and her counter canter is actually quite good, and she has NEVER given me a change working on counter canter. If she can't hold it, she breaks (but I try not to push it to that point!) I've seen many horses be able to learn their changes in jumping tack, and go on to learn counter canter in dressage tests just fine.

[deltawave]

Bonnie doesn't have them, and is a LONG way from getting them. :) She never, ever swaps leads when at liberty, even as a foal out playing or running around she never did, and I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times she's given me one when being ridden, always at a full gallop and more or less spontaneously.

I'm not in any hurry. She's not an upper level prospect and although I really like a horse who has a nice, steady lead change, I think it's something Bonnie doesn't have any particular talent for, so I'm not going to beat my head against the wall thinking she MUST get them.

Addendum--she will swap readily in front, but never behind, and I figure that's a bass-ackwards way of getting her to do it, so if I need a change, it's a simple one. I'll let my trainer decide when she's ready to "learn" her changes.

[Peggy]

Coming mostly from HJ/eq-land, but did event thru training and dressage thru 4th level...

IMHO, horse shouldn't cross-canter and really should avoid counter-cantering turns in jumping courses (unless specifically requested by the class specs). Thus, your only option is a simple change. At the point when the simple change becomes inconvenient in some way, it's time for flying changes. In the hunter world, inconvenient crops up early b/c simple change = trot = major error on course.

Horse should be able to distinguish b/w aids for flying change and remaining on counter canter.

The two that I brought along were doing both jumping shows and dressage. We taught the changes "early" for dressage with no bad after-affects. One of those was the horse that I showed thru 4th level and he could do nine two-tempis across the diagonal. The key is to teach correct changes from the beginning if you plan to cross over to dressage.

When we had a dressage trainer at the barn, I loved to drive his clients crazy by doing the exercise: counter canter / diagonal with flying change to new counter canter /repeat. They hated me:lol:.

[Hony]

I wouldn't school changes but I would school jumping on a circle, or rather figure 8 of two circles so that the horse at least starts to figure out that he can land on the correct lead for what ever's coming next.
My horse still cross canters into fences at times. After watching some of the GP horses at the Olympics jump just fine out of cross canter it doesn't bother me at all.

[Gry2Yng]

On a young horse that doesn't have to do the changes in the dressage test, I only do changes in the jumping saddle when my butt is out of the tack. Some young horses are naturals and some are not. They all have to learn the changes for jumping a course in my book and they don't have a problem learning to hold the counter canter. The only one that was really tough had not learned them when I got him at 7 and never really caught on until he had to learn them for the dressage tests at 11. Now he does flying changes on course like an angel. We also live in a hunter barn, so what choice do I really have. My vote is teach the changes, if you don't know how or have one that is tough, find someone who can teach them. The TB's are usually pretty easy, they are taught to do it at the track. Some WB's can be really tough. I had to turn my last greenie over to a pro, he will still miss by a half stride behind on the right to left occasionally.

[retreadeventer]

How are they judged in the Young Event Horse courses? Will a smooth simple change be counted down?

I think asking for the changes depends on the talent of the rider. A hunter trainer that I know, can get the youngsters to cleanly change evey time I have seen her ask in sale trials. You don't realize she is doing it, and it is very smooth. This is on horses that it has never been asked before.

Having been involved a little in the YEH -- no, the changes are not counted down. I don't think any of the judges I've scribed for even noticed or made mention of it -- however, if a horse has a disunited canter they don't fix, or jump a jump off a disunited canter, that IS counted against them in terms of balance. The jumping doesn't take place in an arena, or shouldn't, so you don't get the traditional arena corners and turns where you would want the horse to be on the correct lead or at least fix it themselves. Many of the young horses especially in the 4yo class are trotted a few steps to fix and that is perfectly acceptable, as long as they stay forward, and as long as it doesn't come in the portion where they are looking for the gallop (judges I've worked with place a great deal of importance on the gallop and are far more concerned a young event horse have the ability to move on out and extend in balance than with changes).
In the dressage all canters are from the trot in both dressage tests I think so it's not a factor there.