Plain Snaffle vs. French Link

[tlw]

Which mouth piece would be more severe (or put another way - more inviting) in a hanging cheek/Baucher configuration? The plain snaffle with only one joint seems "sharper" to me but then two "points" like the French Link has could be worse. My bit mechanics are a little confused. Also, is the difference really all the significant? Thanks.

[eqsiu]

The more severe one is whichever your horse likes least. Both mouthpieces are mild. Some horses find the more even toungue pressue of a double jointed bit more comfortable, some like the pressure more on the sides with a single jointed bit. Generally though a french link would be considered milder (my mare doesn't agree, but hey, she's a mare). There's not that much difference though.

[yellowbritches]

It really depends on who you ask. Some people say a double jointed bit like a french link is the more severe, while others think if you don't ride in a french link you're cruel. ;) But really it is the personal preference of the horse. I've ridden a few small mouthed TBs that could not stand a double jointed bit, and I've ridden a few others that acted like you were riding them with barbed wire in a single jointed bit. So, it really is a personal preference of the HORSE. Go with what they tell you they like.

[Shrunk "N" Da Wash]

The french link is less severe because a plain snaffle causes a "nutcracker effect" when you pull on both reins.

[mvp]

The other thing to consider is just how stable one, two, or many joints make a bit.

For busy, worried horses, less stability makes them need a "stronger" bit. They might just want a quieter one.

For horses that seems to need a stronger bit because they lean on your hand, choosing a really unstable bit can be the right answer.

Not a fan of baucher bits if you were hoping this configuration would add come strength. I don't have the "official" answer as to how they work, though I have my opinions about poll pressure and leverage.

It may help to think about the many ways a bit can help stop horses, or really, invite a horse to change the balance of his whole body. Ask if the mouth piece you would choose goes with the mechanics or philosophy behind the baucher design as you understand it. That might help you choose the right bit for your horse's particular problem.

[tlw]

Thanks MVP. We use this bit because my mare has a tendency to get her tongue over the bit when she plays with it (she has a very active tongue and foams up quite nicely) and since the Baucher hangs a little higher in her mouth it helps a lot. I'm really looking at something for stadium where my mare tends to build. I don't need anything severe, just something to make sure a half halt goes through. We get low to mid 60s at 3d level dressage so she knows what a half halt is and all about collection, but when she gets to jumping sometimes she tends to "forget." Anyway, it seems like it's simply a matter of degrees and I shouldn't worry about it too much.

[eqsiu]

Not a fan of baucher bits if you were hoping this configuration would add come strength. I don't have the "official" answer as to how they work, though I have my opinions about poll pressure and leverage.


There is no poll pressure with a boucher. You have to have shanks as well as a purchase (the upper cheek) to have leverage. Even adding a curb chain would not give you any sort of curb or leverage action. The cheeks of the boucher just make the bit more stable in the mouth. It's very similar to a full cheek with bit keepers.

[yellowbritches]

For busy, worried horses, less stability makes them need a "stronger" bit. They might just want a quieter one.
This is an excellent point. A good example of this Vernon. He has always been very, very busy with his mouth (bit or no bit. He's very oral). He sticks his tongue out, flaps his lips, chews, chomps, and otherwise really plays. He is also "strong" in that he wants to bear down, hang on one rein or the other and in general just be a bit of a tank. I have tried just about everything with him and have never been totally satisfied with how he went. Recently, on whim we put a straight bar plastic bit in his mouth. He LOVES it and is becoming a different horse. He is still a little strong and wants to bear down a bit but I think this will probably get better with strength and because the bit is so quiet in his mouth and he can comfortably bear into a bit, he is generally quieter in. So, mvp's point of it not necessarily needing to be a stronger bit, but a quieter bit (be it going from a french link to a single joint, or a single joint to a mullen mouth) is right on.

[mvp]

If your mare has a half-halt that she forgets when amped up, maybe you also need a little remediation.

What happens if you invite her to make the mistake, say, put her on an exciting course, give her a tactful ride and then follow an ignored half-halt with a firm halt and a moment of standing while she thinks about "her part in it" or even backing up if she doesn't think you were really serious about slowing down?

Perhaps she thinks rules apply in some situations and not others? The right bit will help you get the job done on any given day, but you might be adding to the problem over time and then have to search for more and more hardware in the future.

Just a thought from a fan of flatwork and really broke horses!

[mvp]

Yellowbritches, I like your style in several other posts, so I have a suggestion for you.

Have you tried your man in something like a Nathe mullen mouth elevator bit? Everyone assumes those complicated, leverage-y bits naturally go with a thin mouth piece, but it ain't necessarily so!

I have a loose-ring fat rubber snaffle with Myler-esque rings that help out my soft-mouthed horse who almost never needs "slower" but sometimes benefits from "raise your shoulders, please" in jumper classes.

I think you are right to do the kind of flat work that makes your horse strong enough in his body to rock back when you half-halt. An elevator bit is by no means a long-term solution, but it is a nice piece of equipment for stadium day when you need some help because horse-boy is tired.

OK, back to the regular show.

[yellowbritches]

If your mare has a half-halt that she forgets when amped up, maybe you also need a little remediation.

What happens if you invite her to make the mistake, say, put her on an exciting course, give her a tactful ride and then follow an ignored half-halt with a firm halt and a moment of standing while she thinks about "her part in it" or even backing up if she doesn't think you were really serious about slowing down?

Perhaps she thinks rules apply in some situations and not others? The right bit will help you get the job done on any given day, but you might be adding to the problem over time and then have to search for more and more hardware in the future.

Just a thought from a fan of flatwork and really broke horses!
mvp is frickin brilliant. ;)

I re-read the OP's last post and agree...this doesn't sound so much like a bit issue but a re-install the half halts issues. Don't let her blow you off in the half halts while jumping. If you ask nicely and she gives you the finger, halt, maybe reinback, and proceed as if nothing ever happened. But do it everytime she blows you off. I rode a big strong gelding for a long time, and the first 10-20 minutes of EVERY RIDE was this. If I didn't reinstall my half halts in the beginning of the ride, he'd tow me around (only horse who's every "run away" with me in dressage) and blow off every half halt. Spend a few quality minutes getting the half halts back, and we were golden. I had to do it no matter what bit I rode him in (I jumped him in a pelham and often times schooled him on the flat in a double, but it didn't matter. Half halts still needed to be install).

[ideayoda]

Whether the french is milder has to do with the bearing of the horse. If horse is correctly ifv the bit should really act more on the corners of the mouth, not the bars/tongue/palate. A french is intended for a horse with a sausage tongue (round rather than flat) or a very flat palate. Also, in part a single jointed snaffle should barely touch the palate in a hh, but allow the horse to stay ifv/change its balance in a hh.

[yellowbritches]

Have you tried your man in something like a Nathe mullen mouth elevator bit? Everyone assumes those complicated, leverage-y bits naturally go with a thin mouth piece, but it ain't necessarily so!
He's doing his flatwork in a the HS Duo (http://www.doversaddlery.com/product.asp?pn=X1-01766&ids=284989111) which is very similar to a Nathe, and I am now jumping him in a Happy Mouth straight bar/mullen mouth ring bit with two reins. It is perfect. Actually, really, really perfect. I showed him in it on Saturday and it was so nice. I hated going to something like that, because it looks big and tough (we call it his kicking ass and taking names bit because he LOOKS tough in it), but with the two reins, it is just that tiny bit step up from the Duo that really would never be enough to jump him in (or not more than the occasional gymnastic!). We must share a brain. :lol:

[mvp]

Thanks yellowbritches.

If I had a dime for every hunter shown in some kind of twist full-cheek thing that built up over a course to a wild pace with what appears to be constant, pulling contract from his rider....

To me, this advertises a lack of training (for the horse at a minimum!). That makes no sense to me since show hunters were supposed to be the horse that nicely packed a slightly drunk woman or clueless kid around at a gallop cross country for 3 or 4 hours.

And why are pelhams acceptable in the Eq? That means you are (at worst) asking a big horse to flex at the poll or (at best) asking him to raise his shoulders. If you could really ride and train your horse-- no matter how large and warmbloody, wouldn't you want to show off the fact that you could get all that done in a snaffle?

Flatwork and gen-u-ine top-line strength, my friends!

Allrightythen.

[mvp]

Yellowbritches-- on the same page exactly. If you ever wish to come over to my Bit Library, you know how to find me! We probably have similar items, but I have some funky ones, and ideas about where they might work, too.

[tlw]

MVP and Yellowbritches: I'm on the same page. I'm actually moving from a slow twist to something "less" and wanted to do it in the proper sequence (kind of like a nerve block) so I could be sure to get to the right place, which is the least amount of bit that works to give the proper response at the correct time. The Baucher thing is, as I mentioned, simply to hang the bit in the mouth and get it off the tongue and bars.

[rivenoak]

Flatwork and gen-u-ine top-line strength, my friends!
Allrightythen.

mvp, have you been reading my mind today? I've been all torqued up after looking thru a tack catalogue last nite & seeing what bits are sold. Well, that & two other things, but the bits pictured just set me off.

Two weeks ago, I decided my mare needed a refresher on how nicely trained she is. She's been allowed to get away with a lot over the winter. I went from a fat HS aurigan loose ring french link to this:

http://www.doversaddlery.com/product.asp?pn=X1-01679&ids=285034373

Imagine that...less bit. Still perfectly adequate. And she'll stay in it as long as possible.

NB: I did step it up on her hunting bridle yesterday, to a double-jointed D-ring, because she would be happy to lean on my hands while galloping.

[scubed]

I like to have an equine dentist measure my horses' mouths. They will often tell me if the anatomy of the mouth will make the single jointed or the french link a better fit. I tend to like the "bean" (KK, or JP) rather than the link (though muttly goes in a Dr Bristol, because he needs more attention getting). Also, I universally ride my young horses in something with a fixed ring (D, eggbutt, Baucher), not a loose ring because I agree that the steadiness seems to help a lot, especially with the OTTBs.