Stronger Bit?

[cloudy18]

We were on a group trail ride today and more experienced horseman told me I should try switching my mare to a curb. She has always been a little "stubborn", but I attribute it to me and the need for more training/riding. However, I threatened to get a tougher bit the other weekend when we rode. I pulled it through her mouth. Today when she'd get excited she tended to pull when I asked her to walk from the trot and when I would do a circle she fought it. Lots of mough gaping open too. I don't expect a bit to solve all my problems, but want to have less wear and tear on my shoulders. This is a 20 year old Morab, used for trail riding. Any advice, suggestions?

[sublimequine]

Why not try a bit of leverage, minus a bit? A little s hackamore, beetle hackamore, or english hackamore may get the horse's attention, yet has no bit for the horse to brace or gape against.

[dreamswept]

I'd suggest a hackamore. I've got an english short shank one.

[Shadow14]

You could also add a running martingale. It really adds alot of control. Set the running martingale so it is tight when the horse has it's head at a normal position and the reins run straight to your hands.
A running martingale keeps the head down and the horse on it's bit.
A curb bit with a curb strap also adds alot of control and horses don't tend to toss their heads as much with a curb over the snaffle. Either one adds alot of control

[MistyMtnFarm]

What kind of bit are you currently using?

[LookinSouth]

Even a snaffle will return more power to your hands when it is used in conjunction with a mouth that is securely shut.


I think this would be a good first step as well. It is the simplest change in equipment. A horse can evade a curb bit too if they want to by opening their mouth.

A figure 8 will give you more control without having to up to a harsher bit.

An english hackamore would be a good step as well. I know alot of horses that go well in the english hackamore.

[sonata]

I would try the hackamore. Perhaps your mare has a low pallet. It seems quite common with the arab breed. I had an 1/2 arab and started having lots of problems with avoidence such as gapping, hollowing his back, pulling, ect. Checked his mouth and found his pallet was so low that it touched his tongue. Tried an english hackamore and wow, what a different horse. Had the best control ever. Because his mouth wasn't being hurt, he began to use his rear end better(no more heavy on the front)no more choppy trots. He started giving me a big long lovely trot that was so comfy that i could ride it all day. I rode him with the hackamore at least 10 to 15 years before he passed away.

[Auventera Two]

You have a training problem that has nothing to do with the bit in the horse's mouth. Go back to step 1, which is teaching the horse to bend, give and supple to the bit. You have to start that on the ground first.

You can keep getting bigger bits and bigger bits until your mare ends up like my QH was - going in a long shanked, high port curb with a tight curb chain, sporting bit sores on her lips, and STILL throwing her head and running away.

Go back to training, and don't think that a stronger bit is the answer because its not.

[Shadow14]

I think this would be a good first step as well. It is the simplest change in equipment. A horse can evade a curb bit too if they want to by opening their mouth.

A figure 8 will give you more control without having to up to a harsher bit.

An english hackamore would be a good step as well. I know alot of horses that go well in the english hackamore.

No way openning the mouth avoids a curb bit wearing a curb strap. the lower jaw is pinched between the bit and the curb strap.
Openning a mouth is also not going to avoid the snaffle. You want it againt the lower bars of the mouth. All the horse has to do is raise it's head and the bit rests against the teeth and the horse has avoided the bit. Mouth tied shut of not the head can still come up and thus put the bit on the teeth and not of the sensive bars.
A running martingale keeps the bit on the bars, adds leverage for when the horse ties to raise it's head. the curb adds leverage and the curb strap keeps the bit on the bars.

[Guilherme]

I've seen Walkers run through a 9 1/2" shank "Walker" bit with a single, thin, twisted wire moutpiece. Increasing the amount of "leather and iron" will not, necessarily, advance you goals.

As noted above, you have a training problem, not an equipment problem. Thing is you have 20 year old horse who has lots of "experience" (or maybe "baggage") that you're going to have to deal with. So "retraining" is going to be longer, slower, and more time intensive program than if you were dealing with a young, green horse.

I would first figure out if the horse knows the meaning of "whoa." Then go from there. Begin the training using a snaffle (correctly fitted) in a confined area for safety as you begin to teach acceptance of the bit and response to standard cues and aids.

Pulling a bit through the mouth suggest a lot, none of which is very positive about either the horse or the rider. It may be that the problem is not, in fact, the horse but rather the riders use of the hand. Video recording the rider working the horse will tell a lot about the rider's use of seat, leg, and hand and may require the rider go back to school at the same time as the horse.

G.

[pj]

GADS!!! I don't think the first things to do are to slap in a stronger bit, tie 'em down, and force his mouth closed .
First of all how long has this horse been doing this? Have his teeth been checked recently? How long has this bit been used for this horse? And some horses don't like a snaffle bit. Mine don't but that doesn't mean to do any of the above to them.
IF you have had teeth done I would try something mild like a kimberwick. If it isn't the bit it's a training problem or rather a lack of training.
Shadow, a horse tied down is not ON the bit. That is a whole different thing altogether with no force involved at all but I won't get into it here.

[Shadow14]

GADS!!! .
Shadow, a horse tied down is not ON the bit. That is a whole different thing altogether with no force involved at all but I won't get into it here.

I said a RUNNING not a standing martingale. Big difference and the horse is not tied down with a running. You leave the reins loose and soft until the horse acts up and then and only then will the running come into play.
Alot of jumpers use a running martingale so when the rider applies pressure to the bit the horse can't pull hiis head up to escape the bit and miss seeing the jump.
Lots and lots of older horses are poorly trained and wearing big bits and nothing is going to help them except a more knowledgable rider.
I ran 20 plus years without a bit and only sidepulls so I have lots of experience with running with no bit, I used a light snaffle for years too but eventually found the tom thumb style of bit worked better for me.
Snaffles cause high headedness where a light curb with a snap doesn't.

Seems for another post that the Man from Snow River and Return to Snowyriver are factual. Also look at the movie Austrailia.
What do all of them have in common??
Snaffle bits and horses that throw their heads up when asked to stop. Every one. You don't get that with curbs. There is no escape from throwing the head up so the horse doesn't learn the annoying habit.
I ride with extremely soft hands and believe I could tie my reins to the bit with a single strand of thread and not break it on a 2 hour ride.

[katarine]

Simply put, your horse is not trained to be responsive and you aren't trained to ride.

Lessons is where I'd suggest you start, honestly.

[Auventera Two]

You don't get that with curbs. There is no escape from throwing the head up so the horse doesn't learn the annoying habit.

One of my riding buddies rides only in a Myler level 2 curb, and her horses still throw their heads up when ticked off, or crazy to run home and she won't let them. Having a curb in their mouths does NOTHING for head throwing. The only way to stop a horse from throwing its head is to tie it down with a standing martingale. (Not that I advocate it, because I don't.)

[cloudy18]

She is currently in a regular jointed snaffle, it's what she was ridden in before we bought her, and what I have ridden in the last two years. I plan on getting her into a round pen/riding ring so I can see how she does w/out the distraction of going home, other horses, etc. Also plan on some lessons for us both when I get time, should be soon. The only other bit I have tried her in was a Level 2 Myler snaffle and I thought she was actually more bullheaded in that, but that was last year on a trail ride. I don't think I can compare unless I try them out in a more controlled environment.

I just know that when I go to take lessons it's quite possible they will recommend someting, and I'd like a little input. A book says stick with snaffle, someone says curb, someone says hackamore. Just looking for ideas/opinions.

[pj]

Doesn't matter what kind. A horse actually ON a bit needs nothing to keep them there. They do it themselves when asked. Takes a LOT of work not gimmicks.

[katarine]

Basically- the answer that suits you and your situation will depend on what you're willing and able to do with that answer. Riding lessons, maybe a dental exam, maybe a cavesson, maybe a tie down, maybe bumping her up to some weird bit, using leverage to bend her to your bad hands, etc...I guess what I'm saying is that your answer depends more on you and your time and money resources...than on the horse. I'm not trying to be ugly or short- I'm just stating the facts as I see them. I haven't seen the horse, your riding, your deal. There are many possible solutions. Only you know what you can invest in creating a better situation where you aren't dragging a snaffle through a horse's mouth.

[cloudy18]

She had her teeth done last year and will again this year when the vet comes to do Coggins. I honestly don't think it's her teeth. I think it's a riding/training issue combined, and if people tend to agree that my snaffle should do the job, then I will stick with that, or possibly try a hackamore to see if that offers any improvement. Lessons for sure so someone else can watch.

[sublimequine]

She had her teeth done last year and will again this year when the vet comes to do Coggins. I honestly don't think it's her teeth. I think it's a riding/training issue combined, and if people tend to agree that my snaffle should do the job, then I will stick with that, or possibly try a hackamore to see if that offers any improvement. Lessons for sure so someone else can watch.

Can you grab a lesson or two from somebody, to help you out on what you're supposed to do when she's being unresponsive? That would probably be a better investment than a new bit, to be honest. :)

My suggestion for a hackamore, however, still stands. If you pick one with short shanks, and don't use an overly tight curb strap/chain, it's worth a try. :yes:

[katarine]

Good deal on the teeth, then. Now one thing about snaffles is they ought to be on browband bridles, not one of the western-type one ear bridles. Browband bridles are more stable on the face and will help that snaffle be stable in her mouth. A strap of leather as a curb chain, per se, will also help you keep the snaffle in her mouth.

Near term, using a cavesson adjusted snug- not tight- snug- will help her keep her mouth shut, and the bit in her mouth. If your bridle is too loose, and that bit is swimming in her mouth, pulling it through is very easy to do. I've helped owners who had bits adjusted so low the joint of the snaffle was just about rapping the back of their front-most teeth. oops. Might want to tighten that up, folks LOL.

here's an article with some pics that depict what I'm suggesting regarding a set up of a well adjusted snaffle, rope cavesson, and some info on suppling a horse, too.
http://westernhorseman.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=886&Itemid=77

A broke western horse ought to be guidable into a spiral of circles in both directions, from let's say an 80' trotting circle gradually down to a 20-25' trotting circle, and back out, with a feather touch on a floating rein or better yet a suggestion of a turn, supported by a stable inside leg and a driving outside leg to help shape that circle. That rider's hips and shoulders and line of sight all help shape those circles too. That's what you're aiming for, at least in part.

[pj]

My suggestion for a hackamore, however, still stands. If you pick one with short shanks, and don't use an overly tight curb strap/chain, it's worth a try. :yes:
This IS certainly worth a try. THe first competitive ride I took my mule to was awful. He ran most of the whole thing. Got him a fairly mild hack and the next ride he was near perfect. He wore a hack there after.

[Auventera Two]

Agreed that trying the hack is a great suggestion. One of mine hated every kind of bit I gave her, but she goes very well in a Little S hack.

[cloudy18]

It is a browband bridle, I don't like the one-eared headstalls. I don't think the bit is really low, and the guy watching yesterday probably would have commented if he thought so. I think she needs more flexion work, and she has moments where the stubborness really kicks in and she fights it. When this guy suggested a curb she was wanting to trot and I wanted to walk. I was trying to slow her with my seat and hands, and she was opening her mouth. And when I would try to turn then, she would fight that, and sometimes open her mouth.

The hackamore would be worth a try though, as well as a cavesson or noseband. Now what are the main differences in the S hack vs the English hack? I know looks-wise, but other differences?

[Manes and Tails]

This is exactly the kind of problem you don't fix with a curb. It's *easier* for a horse to brace against the curb.

You need to work on flexion, which I only really know how to do English, but part of the key is to keep the neck flexible so that she's not bracing against the bit. Don't pull steadily against her...release and then pull.

I assume that when the bit went through her mouth you were doing a one rein stop?

[Guilherme]

I don't the hack is going to give you any help, here. The pressure from a bit is crisp and clean and clear; the hack pressure is more difuse and subject to misinterpretation. If flexion and response to the cues and aids is the issue then the hack won't help; it could even make the situation worse.

The horse has learned to "fight" the bit and has won enough times to make the fight worthwhile. You've got to change the horse's mind about fighting. First, don't give them a reason to fight (stay light in the hand and use as much seat and leg as you can). Second, if they push the fight (and sometimes they will) then "play" them like a fish, don't get into a "tug of war." They will always win a pulling contest; you've got to prevent that win.

For safety, do this basic work in a restricted area when you've got a corner you can use if you need it.

In all of this timing is critical. As soon as the horse gives to the bit, even just a tiny amount, reward the effort. Again, you're working with an older horse with some experience. Replace the bad experiences with good ones to the best of your ability.

Good luck with the project.

G.

[Sithly]

Seems for another post that the Man from Snow River and Return to Snowyriver are factual. Also look at the movie Austrailia.
What do all of them have in common??
Snaffle bits and horses that throw their heads up when asked to stop. Every one. You don't get that with curbs. There is no escape from throwing the head up so the horse doesn't learn the annoying habit.


Heh. Ever watched anything on the "Western" cable channel? Every horse ridden by a ham-handed actor throws its head up, regardless of bit. Almost all of the cowboy movies feature horses in curbs, throwing their heads up.

I have no problem with curb bits (I even use one occasionally just for fun), but to say that snaffle bits cause high-headedness is ridiculous and wrong. Bad hands do that.

[dreamswept]

I just know that when I go to take lessons it's quite possible they will recommend someting, and I'd like a little input. A book says stick with snaffle, someone says curb, someone says hackamore. Just looking for ideas/opinions.

I rode my Haflinger pony last year in a French link full cheek snaffle. He was good most of the time, but when he wanted to be a butthead, he could really be a butthead. A lot of it was a training issue, but he's got that strong little neck and big enough head that he could really brace against the snaffle bit and just tune me out. My problem wasn't actually that he was throwing his head or anything, it was mainly he was trying to keep it down low to graze. Brakes definitely wouldn't be the issue.

Fast forward to this year and the grass growing nice and green, and it just became a nightmare to deal with this guy. Walking while grazing ... he sure could do it. And kicking him didn't do any good. I talked to a few people because I was really adamant about staying with a snaffle bit because you know how we're all told that snaffles are kind mild bits, and every horse ought to go in a snaffle. Well, the folks on my Haflinger mailing list said I was being silly. That not every horse can go in a snaffle, and a snaffle might be worse to use because you constantly have to be on their mouth rather than giving a single clear signal and then backing off.

So I switched him to the english hackamore. It's got enough bite when I need it, I can keep my hands very soft and light in it otherwise, and we're working on the training aspect of the issue. So far, he's gotten it into his head that he can't drop his head to graze whenever he wants to.

It's worth a try, certainly.

[LookinSouth]

No way openning the mouth avoids a curb bit wearing a curb strap. the lower jaw is pinched between the bit and the curb strap.
Openning a mouth is also not going to avoid the snaffle. You want it againt the lower bars of the mouth. All the horse has to do is raise it's head and the bit rests against the teeth and the horse has avoided the bit. Mouth tied shut of not the head can still come up and thus put the bit on the teeth and not of the sensive bars.
A running martingale keeps the bit on the bars, adds leverage for when the horse ties to raise it's head. the curb adds leverage and the curb strap keeps the bit on the bars.

I disagree. Believe what you like but there are many, MANY riders whose horses go completely different in a Figure 8 versus a plain cavesson. It is the simplest, mildest change you can make in regards to tack change.

I would never encourage a rider who is having the issues described here to go to a curb bit w/o seeking the help of a pro first!

I also disagree that the horse can't throw it's head w/ a curb bit or that a running martingale WHEN PROPERLY ADJUSTED is going to add any more control for this rider. Apparently you have never witnessed unskilled riders using either piece of equipment. I have.
A running martingale should be adjusted so that it only comes into to play when the horse lifts it head up fairly high, otherwise the martingale is pulling down on the reins which means its pulling on the bars. A horse can still lift it's head up considerably with a running when it's properly adjusted. The reason why they use them in the Jumpers is because the running allows the horse to lift it's head high enough to see a distance over the bigger jumps where the standing will not. It adds just enough control to prevent the horse from lifting it's head uncontrollably high.
Your theory about adding control when the rider takes up the reins is ridiculous. No one goes around the Jumper ring with a slack contact. You don't see anyone in the GP with their horses head tied down using a running...defeats the purpose. It also won't help with a horse that opens it's mouth.

I fail to see how a PROPERLY ADJUSTED running martingale would help this situation in any way, shape or form.

[Shadow14]

Your theory about adding control when the rider takes up the reins is ridiculous. No one goes around the Jumper ring with a slack contact. You don't see anyone in the GP with their horses head tied down using a running...defeats the purpose. It also won't help with a horse that opens it's mouth.

I fail to see how a PROPERLY ADJUSTED running martingale would help this situation in any way, shape or form.


I thought we were talking about trail riding and yes I ride with total slack reins on trail and nearly anywhere else too. I do not keep contact with my horses mouth, I leave him alone and only pick up the rein to clue him. I also beleive in heavy reins, good 3/4 inch wide ones so all I have to do is pick the rein up, the horse feels this and responds to rein weight alone.
I have experience with problem horses and find a running martingale adjusted so a straight line between the horses mouth at normal head carriage and the riders hands works best. If the horse throws his head up the running martingale pulls it down on the bars and with TRAIL riding you are not on the mouth, slack reins and only take up the slack when the horse is not listening.
But why not let people experiment, give things a try, don't listen to everyone and do your own thing. People always think you have to go by a set rule. Forget the rules and just try, see if you like how it feels, if the horse responds better and then make up your own mind.
If you keep constant contact with a horse and ride ALOTT you will get tennis elbow over time and relaxing is the only way you will survive over long time.
If you fight a horse constantly it wears both you and your horse out and takes it toll..............

[Auventera Two]

I don't the hack is going to give you any help, here. The pressure from a bit is crisp and clean and clear; the hack pressure is more difuse and subject to misinterpretation. If flexion and response to the cues and aids is the issue then the hack won't help; it could even make the situation worse.

The horse has learned to "fight" the bit and has won enough times to make the fight worthwhile. You've got to change the horse's mind about fighting. First, don't give them a reason to fight (stay light in the hand and use as much seat and leg as you can). Second, if they push the fight (and sometimes they will) then "play" them like a fish, don't get into a "tug of war." They will always win a pulling contest; you've got to prevent that win.

For safety, do this basic work in a restricted area when you've got a corner you can use if you need it.

In all of this timing is critical. As soon as the horse gives to the bit, even just a tiny amount, reward the effort. Again, you're working with an older horse with some experience. Replace the bad experiences with good ones to the best of your ability.

Good luck with the project.

G.

On one hand I agree with you, but on the other I disagree. My QH mare was ridden in heavy/strong bits by other people and she had gotten SO resentful. She wouldn't even open her chops to get the bit in - you'd stand there for 5 minutes trying to pry her jaws open. She would throw her head up, put it down between her knees. It was just sad.

After being run away with more than once, and having to do a one-rein stop to get her shut down, I tried the Little S Hack and she was a totally different horse. She was light and soft, happy, ears floppy and relaxed. Of course there was no drama to pry her poor mouth open for a bit. She's gone in a hack ever since (about 4 years now.) I can ride her in a rope halter and she's excellent. Put any kind of bit on her and she tries to run away to escape it. And yes, she has regular dental work with a full mouth speculum, preformed by an equine dentist. He says her teeth are beautiful, and rarely does anything to them. She doesn't have wolf teeth or anything like that. That horse just detests a bit. My other mare has never had a bit in her mouth, and only goes in a rope halter or Little S. And the third mare goes in a twisted mouthpiece barrel bit with shanks. I hate it, I really really hate it. But I've tried a bucket full of different bits and none of them made her happy like that one does, so that's what I'm using. I'm trying to find that same mouthpiece in a simple ring instead of with the shanks. If I can find that, I bet she'll go fine in that and I can get rid of those awful shanks. They're all different.

[cloudy18]

dreamswept, that's similar to my mare. I actually thought she was doing pretty well on this ride, I had her turning when she wanted to catch her buddy and it wasn't a big fight, but then on the way home and at other times she wanted to go, and when I would try circles I'd get a fight. She doesn't so much throw her head as just ignore or brace, but other times she's ok. But the mough gapes open, so I like the noseband idea as well as the English or S hack. She does not readily take the bit, but again that could be her stubbornness rather than a hatred of the bit. She also likes to snack, but I can pull her head up, it does a take some effort. That is a problem I am not worried about, however, bc I can catch her right at the start of the attempt.

[Guilherme]

Hacks can have their uses (mostly in horses with mouth pathology that precludes the use of a bit). The thing, here, is that the horse has been in lots of "tugs of war" and has apparantly won enough of them then it'll "play the game." Giving the rider even more power (with a hack or any other "power" device) will ultimately lead to a worse result as it encourages the rider to get heavy in the hand. Just what you don't want.

IMO the OP needs to be videoed on the horse and then review the video. The lens doesn't lie and doesn't spare feelings, either. I suspect the root of the problem here is the rider, not the bit. So changing the bit will give, at best, an illusion of success.

I hope the OP does effectively assess themselves and the horse and succeeds in the program.

G.

[Icecapade]

Lots of answers....

I think best is physical (checked: good for you)

next is professional- shop around, not always a clear RIGHT answer.

Secondly a curb has its place, if YOU (general you there not OP specifically) know how to properly use it. Suggesting to just use it blindly is silly. Suggesting a snaffle is all that it takes blindly is just silly.

My stallion can be very headstrong when he wants, even for a little guy so he isn't a raging whore if you will, but he braces very badly- inverts and its just like a 50 lb weight on my hands.

So I rode with a mullen mouth low port pelham on trails and snaffle in the arena. Fine dandy it was sooooo much easier. But I rode double reins and had been educated to ride a curbed bit with two reins and it was lovely. Soooo much less fighting.

I have been taking dressage lessons and switched from a 'western' style to a full dressage bridle and OMG what a difference a basic noseband makes. Its not cranked, I can fit a finger in all the way around at minimum (in all the 'tight' places), he still gaps, and will still invert and try to run away but it isn't nearly as bad... And let me tell you, I switched back to another bridle w/ no nose band and HOLY S%%T. It was a different animal.

I now have down graded to almost exclusively a snaffle even with my trail riding, but if I feel the need have no problem switching back to the pelhem... loved the feel loved the reaction, but not 'proper' training for dressage so I try to stick with that as best I can.

=) I wish you the best of luck though, it takes patience regardless of the route you seek, which bare in mind may not always be the last one... :)

[LookinSouth]

Openning a mouth is also not going to avoid the snaffle.


see icecapades post...

[LookinSouth]

you said....


[quote=Shadow14;4000066]
Alot of jumpers use a running martingale so when the rider applies pressure to the bit the horse can't pull hiis head up to escape the bit and miss seeing the jump.


which is why I brought up the jumpers. I understand the purpose of a slack rein on trail. That said, if your horses head shoots up the second you go to take contact there is an issue with your HANDS.




Lots and lots of older horses are poorly trained and wearing big bits and nothing is going to help them except a more knowledgable rider.



true. so wouldn't it be best for this rider to seek the help of a trainer rather than slap a curb in it's mouth?




Snaffles cause high headedness where a light curb with a snap doesn't.




bologne. tell that to the dressage board:lol:

[Icecapade]

see icecapades post...

thanks? I think ;)


I think something being overlooked a little ... a horse can be avoiding above or BELOW the bit...

just because his head isn't sky high doesn't mean he isn't still completely avoiding

so a curb won't always help... it usually hurts the situation. same with a snaffle, avoiding is above or below.

[pj]

thanks? I think ;)


I think something being overlooked a little ... a horse can be avoiding above or BELOW the bit...

just because his head isn't sky high doesn't mean he isn't still completely avoiding

so a curb won't always help... it usually hurts the situation. same with a snaffle, avoiding is above or below.

:yes::yes::yes: Right on!!

[merrygoround]

OP . You really did answer your own question when you said the problem was on your part. A lack of training/riding. All the riding in the world , and all the bits in the tack shop won't solve your problem without a little training.

[rainechyldes]

Snaffle bits and horses that throw their heads up when asked to stop. Every one. You don't get that with curbs. There is no escape from throwing the head up so the horse doesn't learn the annoying habit.
I ride with extremely soft hands and believe I could tie my reins to the bit with a single strand of thread and not break it on a 2 hour ride.

The right part of this Shadow is where you said you ride with extremely soft hands:)! You could probably put any bit on your guy, and because you have good hands, and he's a schooled horse, he'd be fine.

A horse can/ will toss their head regardless of type of bit if the rider is heavy on their face, or the horse is unschooled, or defiant. Tt's a defense in the first and an evasion in the latter example.

[SmokenMirrors]

While I applaud the OP for trying to figure out what her horses problem is, I do want to strongly caution her on using a hackamore if she hasn't used one before. The pressure a hackamore causes on the nose can stop them right fast and in a hurry depending on how hard you pull back. I have ridden in a hackamore on my QH gelding for years, same with his sister Lucy and I have light hands, something that, to me personally, is a must!

[LookinSouth]

thanks? I think ;)


I think something being overlooked a little ... a horse can be avoiding above or BELOW the bit...

just because his head isn't sky high doesn't mean he isn't still completely avoiding

so a curb won't always help... it usually hurts the situation. same with a snaffle, avoiding is above or below.


I was referring to your experience with a change in noseband. A figure 8 or flash noseband can make a big difference for a horse that has a tendency to gape. Of course it is the responsibility of the rider to determine WHY the horse gapes it's mouth. Mine only does it when he is behind other horses and is determined to drag me along to catch up....when we're out alone or going for a really tame ride we go in a plain noseband.

[Shadow14]

The right part of this Shadow is where you said you ride with extremely soft hands:)! You could probably put any bit on your guy, and because you have good hands, and he's a schooled horse, he'd be fine.


.

Yes I can ride in anything or nothing at all but my horses don't get that way by dinking around. I say stop with my body and my voice and if the horse doesn't take the hint I set him down. After being shut down a few times he learns when I lift the reins, sit down in the saddle with my butt and say HO he stops right away, no fuss and I don't use the reins to signal the horse but only to reinforce my commands.
To me the reins are for back up. Your voiced, your body, particularly the legs and the weight WEIGHT of the reins are all that should be needed.
This comes by riding with definite cues, clear precise ones and only after they fail do you resort to the reins.
Yes I neck rein but my legs and hips turn the horse just as readily as the shift in weight of the reins.
I rode for more then 20 years without a bit in side pulls and decided that a bit actually wieghed less and I switched.
It takes me 1 1/2 years to 2 years to make a horse but by 6 months they pass most other horses in training.
I am really annal about my horse and his training and everything is gear towards making him what he is.

[cloudy18]

I really like the idea of trying the Figure 8 noseband first. No big change for the horse or me, I can work on my riding and her response w/out worrying about working a new bit. If whomever gives us lessons thinks she might dislike bits, then I can try the hackamore.

[Shadow14]

The right part of this Shadow is where you said you ride with extremely soft hands:)! You could probably put any bit on your guy, and because you have good hands, and he's a schooled horse, he'd be fine.

.

Strider running a 50 with my daughter up. Notice the lack of bit and the loose reins. This is how all my horses go and I taught my daughter to have gentle hands
http://i44.tinypic.com/5plpwz.jpg

[Beverley]

You've gotten some good pointers, but I do want to throw out a little food for thought.

The first is, some horses just need a change in bits periodically. Not necessarily to a stronger bit, just a different bit. I had one that would just start ignoring the bit in his mouth- nothing major mind you, just a bit of lugging or some such. I'd switch to a different snaffle, maybe thin sweet iron loose ring instead of french link, for example- instant lightness again.

The other thing is- frankly, I'd try a curb. On a loose rein. I've had horses that would, for example, lug on a snaffle when hunting (especially with kids aboard)- I'd put a rubber pelham in, and they would not lug and would go happily and lightly on a loose rein all day.

Whatever you use, it's true that educated hands are key. The flip side though is that those who say 'use a snaffle, it's gentler than a curb' have never seen the 6-7-8 yo dressage horses I've seen with major scarring on the tongue from constant pulling by rider on snaffle. You can do significant damage with any bit. If, with a curb bit, your horse relaxes and goes on a loose rein, you'll both be happier. With less educated riders, I'd frankly rather have a curb bit than a hackamore (I speak of mechanical hackamore types)- a horse will let you know in a hurry if you are too heavy handed with the curb.:)

[Summernyt]

it's not really about the bit when you look at it honestly. I think of strong bits used harshly as the spandex shape-enhancers where you instantly "lose" 5 pounds...they make you look good, work for the time you need but oh what flab underneath!

You need to stay safe, but maybe spend some fun, no-brainer time just connecting with your horse so she stays with you mentally. It's really about training and your riding, not bits, martingales or spurs.

I am finding with my cranky QH mare that IF I am mentally able to be patient, listen to her responses which have been deadened by insensitive training, she steps up to the plate. The lighter I am in general, the happier she is. Some of the most connected rides I've had are when I have no agenda, hop on in whatever I'm wearing or in a sundress. They feel the rider's lightness and after some hesitation, enjoy it and maybe begin to trust it.

[cloudy18]

I see your point with the curb, Bev. I used to ride an Arab that was a fairly decent trail horse considering nobody had touched him for ten years and then I came along. (This was back when I was fresh out of riding lessons, but he was a pretty laid back horse.) He went ok in a snaffle, but could occasionally decide to be more stubborn. I'd switch to his curb and he settled right down.

That is why this guy suggested the curb. He said it worked for his horse, she stopped testing and pushing all the time. He figured the snaffle was just toughening up her mouth bc she could ignore it easily.

It is worth a try too. I'm not looking for an easy quick fix, but something that will make the horse happy, if part of this problem is actually caused by her unhappiness with the bit vs me/her stubbornness. Or a combo of all.

[Shadow14]

I've ALWAYS said it is better to have TOO much bit and use it GENTLY then not enought bit and use it HARSHLY.:)

[Icecapade]

Thanks lookinsouth... I wasn't sure! lol

Thats what happened with me...

I fought and fought and fought with the snaffle when we were out- and it was so stupid... Gapping at the mouth and just a dead weight. and it was horrible for him and me, I felt terrible...

pehlam? no problems hardly at all.

more work with being attentive to the snaffle and a REAL NOSE BAND and I can ride him out now with it and not have nearly the issues, he still will get heavy on me but nearly as bad.

having the hands is crucial- but Shadow is totally right there is a HUGE difference in the weight of the reins.... most of my headstalls have heavy reins, and I really don't like my english rubber ones- so light, you constantly have to have a feel on them to keep the connection alive but its what it takes for certain disciplines... besides riding down the trail you really don't need contact anyway... nice solid reins and a good horse? poo bah, you hardly should touch them! :D