Opinions wanted

[vineyridge]

I'd do this as a poll but would rather have some of the responders thought processes.

What do you folks think about the spring practice of running horses at 3*s less 5 weeks, 6 weeks or thereabouts before running them at Rolex? Has this always been the schedule? If not, if the horse has come through without injury and is "ready", is it okay in your mind?

I'm particularly thinking of the horses who did Galway on March 17th and will be shipping to Rolex for competition on April 23rd.

[vbunny]

I think it depends on the horse and how it comes out of the competition. If it comes out feeling strong and sharp and like it just keeps getting better, then I think its great, and good call to you trainer. If it comes out bushed and not recovering well, with a lack of confidence or just not right, then I guess it might be good to know that now. I think a lot of the top horses do a number of 3 days in a year, much closer together than many of us were taught was ok when we were coming up. Some manage it really well and some don't. I think a lot also depends on their actual soundness rather than what you can coax them through.

[ThirdCharm]

Don't EVEN get me started. After all that was the whole point of getting ride of R&T&Steeplechase right? Cram more "A" shows errrrr events into a shorter time frame....

Jennifer

[blackwly]

I think you're referring to horses who are running CIC***, then Rolex. A CIC*** is not a 3day. It's shorter, and essentially a tough horse trial run under FEI rules. It shouldn't be much more taxing than any other advanced horse trial.

Running a full CCI*** followed by a full CCI**** within 6 weeks would be a different situation.

[RiverBendPol]

Makes me crazy. Why do you think I am such a maniac on the BRING BACK THE FULL FORMAT issue.

[yellowbritches]

If we are talking CICs I don't see a big problem with it. If we are talking CCIs, then I have a problem with it. I don't love seeing horses at the level run every other weekend leading up to Rolex, but I can definitely see a couple of HTs and a CIC (hopefully the CIC course will be the toughest track they see prior to Rolex) to prep.

[Legatus]

What do you folks think about the spring practice of running horses at 3*s less 5 weeks, 6 weeks or thereabouts before running them at Rolex? Has this always been the schedule? If not, if the horse has come through without injury and is "ready", is it okay in your mind?


Well, I'm on the side that thinks it is abhorrent (but I'm from the stance that 2 Prelim events in four-five weeks can be thought of as ridiculous). Having said that, regardless of what one thinks, it is clearly becoming a common practice. With a cursory glance, there were "only" 5 horses who competed at Galway who are currently entered at Rolex. At least those horses get to sleep on their shipment out here.

Again, quickly looking, but it looks like 23 horses are competing at the Fork CIC*** this weekend and also at Rolex (now less than three weeks from when the first dressage test begins).

It doesn't really matter the presence or permutation of Cs and Is and stars in this case; the horses are being pounded.

[Legatus]

ETA: I am including this information to illustrate that the horses have already had several back-to-back events within a twelve week period prior to running a CIC*** and Rolex in an even shorter time period.

FWIW, the 23 horses referenced in my previous post doing the Fork CIC*** and being entered at Rolex have already had quite the active season in 2009. Of these horses, almost all have competed in 3-4 Intermediate and Advanced (primarily the latter) horse trials prior to the Fork. A few have had as many as five runs (keep in mind, this is within less than a twelve-week period, Jan-March).

Regardless of the rider's purpose for running (e.g., "preparation," "shiggles," or "business"), looking at this objectively, isn't this over-use? Why are we doing this to our horses?

[WakeRider]

Just food for thought.... I saw from the entries that two horses that ran the ** at Poplar (ran FAST) are running this weekend at the Fork ***....

I dunno, this kinda gives me the chills.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

FWIW, the 23 horses referenced in my previous post doing the Fork CIC*** and being entered at Rolex have already had quite the active season in 2009. Of these horses, almost all have competed in 3-4 Intermediate and Advanced (primarily the latter) horse trials prior to the Fork. A few have had as many as five runs (keep in mind, this is within less than a twelve-week period, Jan-March).

Regardless of the rider's purpose for running (e.g., "preparation," "shiggles," or "business"), looking at this objectively, isn't this over-use? Why are we doing this to our horses?

Hmm... that doesn't sound that bad. 3-5 runs ending the season at Rolex...doesn't sound unsual or excessive....or any different than what was commonly done with the classic format. Each xc run is a gallop day...and leading up to Rolex, those horses would be galloping every 5 days. Older more experienced horses might need fewer runs (I know a few that would go on two runs before their three day) but it depends on the horse.

As for 2 prelims a month....please. That isn't hard on a fit horse. It is far far far less than most fox hunters do. Competing year round without any breaks is excessive.

I'm not a big fan of doing a ton of competing but on some younger greener horses, doing a two HTs back to back can be very helpful with their training if it is balanced with other things. I'm against running CCIs back to back...and think you should only do two a year (spring and fall)...and your horse should get a vacation after each one.

[yellowbritches]

Hmm... that doesn't sound that bad. 3-5 runs ending the season at Rolex...doesn't sound unsual or excessive....or any different than what was commonly done with the classic format. Each xc run is a gallop day...and leading up to Rolex, those horses would be galloping every 5 days. Older more experienced horses might need fewer runs (I know a few that would go on two runs before their three day) but it depends on the horse.

As for 2 prelims a month....please. That isn't hard on a fit horse. It is far far far less than most fox hunters do. Competing year round without any breaks is excessive.

I'm not a big fan of doing a ton of competing but on some younger greener horses, doing a two HTs back to back can be very helpful with their training if it is balanced with other things. I'm against running CCIs back to back...and think you should only do two a year (spring and fall)...and your horse should get a vacation after each one.
As usual, ditto.

Just food for thought.... I saw from the entries that two horses that ran the ** at Poplar (ran FAST) are running this weekend at the Fork ***....

I dunno, this kinda gives me the chills.
Poplar was last weekend, right? THAT is excessive in my view.

[WakeRider]

As usual, ditto.


Poplar was last weekend, right? THAT is excessive in my view.

yes it was. And under horribly sloppy conditions.

[Legatus]

Each xc run is a gallop day...and leading up to Rolex, those horses would be galloping every 5 days.

The problem is that running cross-country at an upper-level horse trial/event is considerably more taxing than a gallop and/or breezing workout would be. XC is NOT a straightforward gallop anymore that can be used as a "gallop day." Many times, it is an intense experience of "go fast - slow down - go fast - slow down, haul-kick-haul-kick."


That isn't hard on a fit horse. It is far far far less than most fox hunters do.

I don't believe that the demands on current cross-country courses are comparable to those of foxhunting.

[gully's pilot]

Not comparable to foxhunting in which direction? When I hunted with a drag hunt, we had four runs of about fifteen minutes each, separated by checks of about ten minutes. We mostly went at a decent gallop, and there were venues to which I hacked six miles there and back. Never had any trouble.

[Legatus]

Not comparable to foxhunting in which direction? When I hunted with a drag hunt, we had four runs of about fifteen minutes each, separated by checks of about ten minutes. We mostly went at a decent gallop, and there were venues to which I hacked six miles there and back. Never had any trouble.

Cross-country and foxhunting, to me, are apples and oranges. Just because you're jumping fences outside of an arena does not make them comparable. Two different types of fitness are required based on the demands of the sports.

Today's cross-country includes many reptitions of speed up/slow down over a short period of time, which causes great wear and tear on the horse (there have been numerous threads about this interspersed with long format vs short format debates).

Foxhunting, as you described, does not involve the same degree of kick-haul. It's galloping across country with an occasional interspersed fence-- not tight turns and tricky combinations.

I would much rather see horses hunt several times a month than compete in "modern" Prelim events twice a month.

[EventerAJ]

As stated earlier, CICs are different than CCIs.

CICs are essentially horse trials, just under FEI rules. I have *no* problem with horses running CICs two or three weeks before a three day. Just like you'd use a horse trial for your last run; two, three, or four weeks out (depending on the horse and situation). You may or may not "go for time" at these events... depending on your horse's fitness and what you need to get out of this event.

At training and below, running events back-to-back occasionally is no big deal. At prelim, I would do it cautiously and only for a reason. Above that, hardly ever (the only reason I could think, is if you get eliminated early on course and you want to come back and fix that).



It is my firm belief that horses should complete no more than 2 three-days a year; one in spring, one in fall. This is the way the schedule has been traditionally prepared. A three-day course is LONG, at least 2 minutes longer than the avg course at that HT level. Even though it may be "short format," it is quite taxing on the horse. IMO, good horsemanship gives the horse a well-earned recovery period afterward; not only from the stress of the event, but the grueling grind of daily training and conditioning. I remember people completing Radnor CCI** in October (still LF?) and then running VA CCI**sf 3 or 4 (?) weeks later in November. To me that is just INSANE! I seem to recall others doing the Rolex/Jersey fling as well... yeah a 3* may be a slight step down from a 4*, but they are still too close together.


There are circumstances where you may enter both. If you have a mistake early on the course, and subsequently do not finish, you haven't "used up" your horse. That's smart riding-- retiring early on a bad day, saving your horse for another event down the road. Not running his legs off to the very end, and then turning around to do it again a few weeks later.

.

[Legatus]

IMO, good horsemanship gives the horse a well-earned recovery period afterward; not only from the stress of the event, but the grueling grind of daily training and conditioning..... That's smart riding-- retiring early on a bad day, saving your horse for another event down the road. Not running his legs off to the very end, and then turning around to do it again a few weeks later.


:yes: :winkgrin: :yes:

[vineyridge]

I just went and read the FEI Rules for CCIs and CICs, and the difference is insignificant. The Show Jumping is the same; the dressage is the same; and except for the distance involved on XC, the number of permitted jumping efforts is the same (40). However, given that the FEI has imposed a ratio of jumping efforts of one "commenced" (?) per 110 meters of distance, the maximum number of CIC jumping efforts will be less than the maximum now allowed.

They don't even list XC heights, and widths, for obstacles for anything but CCIs, so one would assume that CCI limits would also apply to CICs.

[EventerAJ]

I just went and read the FEI Rules for CCIs and CICs, and the difference is insignificant. The Show Jumping is the same; the dressage is the same; and except for the distance involved on XC, the number of permitted jumping efforts is the same (40). However, given that the FEI has imposed a ratio of jumping efforts of one "commenced" (?) per 110 meters of distance, the maximum number of CIC jumping efforts will be less than the maximum now allowed.

They don't even list XC heights, and widths, for obstacles for anything but CCIs, so one would assume that CCI limits would also apply to CICs.


The rules may seem insignificant; but it's the application that's different.

A CIC xc course is just NOT that different from a horse trial course. At many events, it is the EXACT SAME course. When there is a difference, it is usually the addition of 3 or 4 jumping efforts; maybe a "D" element added to an "A,B,C" combination (they do this at Wayne, and Poplar), or maybe an extra loop for a bit more length (like they do at Richland). If longer, a CIC is usually 30-45secs, or maybe a minute longer; still close to a normal HT time. Bottom line, you do not prepare for a CIC any differently than you do a horse trial. You may school a bit more, as a CIC *could* be more technical, but if your horse is up to the demands of a challenging HT course, he is ready for a CIC course.

Not so with a CCI. Short format three-day courses are still about 2 or 3 minutes longer than their respective HT courses. This does take considerably more preparation and conditioning. And takes a lot more out of your horse.

A CIC course often has the same # of combinations (though some of them may be a bit more "involved") as the horse trial. An event, CIC or HT, usually has a "selection" of questions: water, a corner, a coffin, a bank complex. Another event will have water, a corner, a terrain question, a bounce. A CCI always has more questions, almost everything they can design for the level will be there: water, corner, coffin, bank, bounce, terrain, trakehner, ditch and wall, etc. Sometimes repetitively.

This is the huge difference between what seems "similar" in the black/white of the rulebook.

Dressage? Yeah, the CIC and the CCI tests are the same. This is good, allows you to practice your CCI tests.

SJ? There aren't too many differences in SJ between HTs and three-days anyway. The FEI rules allow some additional height; there may be one or two fences added. But if you are adequately prepared for a HT sj course, a CIC course or CCI course isn't a problem.

[Bobthehorse]

yes it was. And under horribly sloppy conditions.

Ugh. My horse is always way more spent after running in slop than anything else. That is mind boggling.

[Thames Pirate]

When my coach was aiming horses at either Foxhall or Rolex (LF) he'd do an Intermediate or two, then an Advanced (horses that had competed at the CCI*** or higher) or two, then 2 CIC***. That was either five or six runs, two of them at CICs. Because he was from a country with no actual team, he was under pressure to build up his FEI points to make WEGs/Olympics as an individual entry, so that may have played a role. He would not run his horses if there was a risk, but he did push, particularly in Olympic years. One horse cut himself at one of the CICs and he didn't run the long format.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I don't believe that the demands on current cross-country courses are comparable to those of foxhunting.


Depends on where you Fox hunt. Here in Cheshire Hunt Country....it is big country...with some damn tricky jumps. Many horses in first flight are steeple chase breed (or still actively racing). That is my reference point. No it isn't as much speed and haul as an HT....but it lasts a HELL of lot longer. No prelim HT has muliple runs of 6+ minutes on hilly terrain for 4 hours.

It is about horsemanship....and that means no black and white rules. You have to prepare your horse and know your horse. What works well for one may not for another. And there are many factors to consider....weather, footing, course, horse's fitness and level of training. All those factors should be considered by the rider is determining whether or not they should compete any particular weekend.