I need to get my lower leg FORWARD over fences... suggestions? UPDATE, pg 2

[eponacowgirl]

I'm getting to the point with my leased mare where we can work on things... all kinds of things. The balance, impulsion, straightness are there- she is going to GO... we're getting the balance and the fitness... I'm actually able to get back to working on me- instead of "cross my fingers and pray we get to the other side together."

My lower leg slides back when I jump. It always has (well, since I quit riding hunters 6 years ago) and I'm starting to help correct it by not making such a big effort with my body. On that thread though, I think if I can hold my lower leg forward, I won't collapse my body so much.

I know it all comes down to making the decision and fixing it- every time, every fence- but I'm wondering if you have any suggestions to help me besides ""just do it!"

My stirrups are up three holes from last summer and came up one hole at this show, so they CAN go up more, but I'll have to adjust. :)

Here's some shots from our last show:

Stadium:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=33249847&l=05b09b5d2b&id=51801315
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=33249848&l=355e71de9c&id=51801315
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=33249851&l=2e4438f4eb&id=51801315
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=33249854&l=b56f729fb7&id=51801315

Galloping XC:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/photo.php?pid=33249861&id=51801315
Out of the water over a log:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=33249855&l=69f1250322&id=51801315

[Wee Dee Trrr]

Stand in your stirrups. It will teach you how to distribute your weight through your leg, as well as, show you the correct spot for your leg.. for you to be in balance (not tipping forward or falling back.) It'll also hurt like hell!

I also like doing bounces to feel how to "stay" and let your horse do the work.

[joharavhf]

First of all, very cute pair you guys make :D It looks like you guys are having fun!

I personally think that your stirrup length is fine, but I'm wondering if the saddle is causing the issue?

It *looks* like the seat size is too small, and in addition, your thigh length is so long that it's popping your knee almost over the knee roll. I think that this may mean that the stirrup bar *may* be in the wrong place for you, therefore making it a losing battle. So *that's* the FIRST thing I would evaluate.

Second, the thing that REALLY helps me is to think about pushing my butt off the back of the saddle when jumping. It makes everything much nicer thinking this way while jumping ;)

Finally, you might want to try some gymnastics! Gymnastics teach you stay out of your horse's way and "up" (ie not laying on her neck, like you have a tendency to do). I would do bounces and one strides to help you.

GOOD LUCK! Like I said, you guys look like you're having fun and THAT is a big deal!!!

[CookiePony]

Go to bed! You have an early morning and long day ahead of you!!

But I will tell you that IME if your upper body stays up and your leg is on, your leg is far less likely to slip back.

Now go to bed!

[sch1star]

You look like a very cute pair!

It looks like you may be a little bit pivoting on your knee and using your lower leg by sliding it backward, rather than turning your toe out. If you picture putting your lower leg a bit "on the dash" (sometimes it helps to think like you're jumping down a bank), with your toe out to put your leg on, it may open your knee and keep your lower leg under you more. (Forget that knee-in thing you learned in the hunters).

Try riding into fences in 2-pt and concentrate on staying steady in your body and letting the horse jump "up" to you.

You might find it helpful to also practice gymnastics because they require you to stay "up" and over your feet or you'll disturb the horse's balance. You'll start to feel how any folding that's needed comes from bending your hip rather than tipping forward over your crotch (think of creating space for your release by your hands going forward and your butt backward).

Riding and jumping (even poles) without stirrups as skill and safety permit will also help, as will riding hills and trot sets...try 5 strides posting, 5 standing (balance over your feet...if you tip over your knees, concentrate on weight on the outside, pinky toe), 5 2-pt, 5 sitting.

This is reminding me that now that spring has come, I have a lot of getting stronger to do :D

I love how it looks like you're both having a lot of fun out there!

[Mach Two]

cute cute cute pony!
Imagine, while you are in the saddle, that you could push your heel all the way to the ground, and keep contact with the ground by doing so.
It looks as though you are gripping with your knee, and that alone will let your leg swing back. Instead, push your weight down in the stirrup by pushing your heel as far down as you can. Try some two point trotting this way, no posting, just balancing with your hands resting, knuckles down on your horse's neck, just in front of the withers.
Once you get more comfortable, then do some ground poles, keeping that weight down in the heel, and then move up to cavaletti or small cross rails, just letting your body fold, rather than pushing yourself up on your horse's neck, as you seem to be doing. Your shoulders should not be in front of the horse's shoulders over the jump, but just behind the horse's shoulders.
Drive your heel forward and down in the approach, and don't anticipate the fence by "leaning " up. This will really help you establish your "galloping" and cantering and jumping seats.

I think your saddle is about an inch and a half too short for the length of your thigh...let me guess...it's a 16 or 16 1/2? I'd say you need either a 17 1/2 or 18" saddle, depending on how forward the flap is. For a thigh the length of yours, a more forward flap will be a help. A saddle that's short for you will tend to toss your forward over fences, and in eventing, that is sure not where you want to be.

What a nice pair you two will be as you develop your "eventing" style!:cool:

[eponacowgirl]

I think your saddle is about an inch and a half too short for the length of your thigh...let me guess...it's a 16 or 16 1/2? I'd say you need either a 17 1/2 or 18" saddle, depending on how forward the flap is.


I'll process the rest of your post later when its not 5:50 am!

Its actually an 18" Stubben Sigfried jumping-model! It has a large knee block towards the top of the saddle, not the long thin roll.

[ThirdCharm]

I too would have guessed the saddle size is a bit small. Just how tall are you???

Some saddles just don't fit some riders, though. Maybe the balance is just wrong. Personally not a fan of Stubbens except for particular types of rider conformation.... could you post some pix of you just sitting in it?

Jennifer

[cyberbay]

Not on facebook, but many good suggestions here. When riders consistently have a lower-leg problem, it can often mean that the saddle is putting them in the wrong position.

Hunter/jumper people don't pay as much attention to saddle fit as, say, dressage people do, but fit of saddle to rider and to horse is very important. ThirdCharm is right: different saddles fit riders of different conformation. And that your stirrup length for jumping is correct -- stirrup length is often too long, and you won't routinely find good examples of it at horse shows... so, look at the very top int'l riders and in the older equitation books for good examples.

[Kairoshorses]

Hey, keep these coming...I have the same problem EC does!

So...not just how can I not keep my legs going back...how do I STOP leaning so far forward? It's muscle memory now....so how do I beak that BAD habit?

[lwk]

Me too!

[joharavhf]

So...not just how can I not keep my legs going back...how do I STOP leaning so far forward? It's muscle memory now....so how do I beak that BAD habit?


Get on a horse that is unreliable and stops!!!! :lol: :lol:

Unfortunately I learned from a pretty early jumping stage to not jump ahead of my horse. *Sometimes* I'll do it occassionally, but more often than not I'm falling behind if anything ;)

[cyberbay]

Fix the habit by breaking it down and fixing it in increments. Remember that the lower leg has to be in front of the upper body when in 2-point. Not a very helpful visual, necessarily, but start with that thought. Then, try the following, either separately or all at once:
-think of your belt buckle being the most forward point of your upper body, even when you close your hip angle for the jump;
-cut down your bid with your upper body by closing your hip angle 10% less, then next time by 20%, and so on;
-as you leave the ground (or, ideally, in the strides up to the jump) think of the soles of your boots being pushed to your horse's nose, but don't achieve this by having your seat shoving out behind you. Keep all your angles, and just go deeper into your lower leg.
-think of your horse's withers as not something you can lie on. Have a sense of them being given room by you as the rider for them to come up.

I hope this imaging helps.

[sch1star]

If you think of pushing your hands *away* from you in the air, you'll naturally put more forward weight in your heels.

It's all in the knee - once you can stop your knee being the pivot point you will find this all much easier!

[eventer_mi]

I have to agree with all the others who say your saddle isn't fitting you correctly. You have a very similar body conformation to me, and those Stubbens, while they DO have a forward flap, is more of a long-forward flap than high. When you have a more rounded thigh, you need the most forward part of the flap to be higher up. It looks like the upper part of your thigh is reaching past the the flap, but you can actually see the most forward part of the flap too far underneath your knee, which is where it should be. I know - I fought with saddles trying to find the most optimal position for me, and even tried the Stubben Siegfried VSSG (extra forward), and none of those worked for me.

What I HAVE tried, that works, is a Berney Bros. Dublin Jumper (but I hated the balance for flatting! However, it certainly keeps your lower leg in front of you!), a monoflap Forestier (loved it, but sold it after I sold my Paint), Antares DJ, and what I have right now that I'm riding in - an Albion Ultima Kontact.

Basically, if you do decide that you want to go saddle shopping (ugh), look for those models that are high and forward, not low and forward - those saddles, like the Stubbens, are actually made for the longer legged folk among us. Their legs are longer proportionately, so they need the flap to be more low and forward.

That said, my trainer tells me that I pinch with my lower leg, so I've been concentrating a lot lately on keeping my thigh open and my knee away from the saddle and reeeeaaaallly wrapping my lower legs around my pony (who is a bit slab sided) , and then when I go to the jump, I keep my leg on, think of squeezing him over the fence, and try and imagine shoving my foot foward in mid-air. The squeezing him over the fence thing works well for me as I tended to take my lower leg off just on the point of take off, grab with my knee, and lean at the jump.

Good luck!

[Roney]

Broken record here, but I did want to chime in and say that I had/have the same problem, and getting a different saddle made a WORLD of difference. :yes: I had no idea how unbalanced I was in the old saddle until I found one that fit me correctly.

I also went through a few lessons and schooling sessions where pretty much ALL I would work on was getting my legs out in front of me. I think the one thing my trainer would tell me - "show me the soles of your boots over the fence" - was a great visual for me.

Good luck! It's a neverending struggle!

[medical mike]

YOur toes and kneecaps point out. Is that your natural posture off the horse?

Does your horse need alot of calf to get moving?

There are several muscle patterns that can cause your leg to slide back so I'm basing my suggestion on the most common pattern that causes it.....

The generic fix is:
Slide your stirrup back 1" more under your foot and make sure the outside branch stays perpendicular if not facing slightly backward in relation to your foot.

Bent knee heel raise

Quad strengthening (modified mini squat), making sure your knee does not go out over the toe

Single leg bridge

Slideboard squeeze

Regards,
Medical Mike
equestrian medical researcher
www.fitfocusedforward.us
soon to be equicision.com

[eponacowgirl]

Here y'all go!

YOur toes and kneecaps point out. Is that your natural posture off the horse?

Yes, come to find out- it is!

Does your horse need alot of calf to get moving?

This one absolutely does not, but my old gelding needed it every. single. step. And still does- muscle memory, I guess?

There are several muscle patterns that can cause your leg to slide back so I'm basing my suggestion on the most common pattern that causes it.....

The generic fix is:
Slide your stirrup back 1" more under your foot and make sure the outside branch stays perpendicular if not facing slightly backward in relation to your foot.

Huh. I'll have to try this one. I believe my old jumper trainer had me do the exact opposite thing, and this might be where my problem began.


I have to agree with all the others who say your saddle isn't fitting you correctly. You have a very similar body conformation to me, and those Stubbens, while they DO have a forward flap, is more of a long-forward flap than high. When you have a more rounded thigh, you need the most forward part of the flap to be higher up. It looks like the upper part of your thigh is reaching past the the flap, but you can actually see the most forward part of the flap too far underneath your knee, which is where it should be. I know - I fought with saddles trying to find the most optimal position for me, and even tried the Stubben Siegfried VSSG (extra forward), and none of those worked for me.

That absolutely makes sense. Luckily, I'll be at Rolex so I can do some sitting. :yes: Not that I can afford anything, but I can keep an eye out.

I too would have guessed the saddle size is a bit small. Just how tall are you???

5'9" And whats funny is that my leg is actually quite short for my height. I guess 5'9" is taller than average, though. Right?

Some saddles just don't fit some riders, though. Maybe the balance is just wrong. Personally not a fan of Stubbens except for particular types of rider conformation.... could you post some pix of you just sitting in it?

Let me see what I can find... otherwise I'll snap some soon.

[eponacowgirl]

And for comparisons sake, here's my not humanly possible knee turning jumping on my gelding.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=33148382&l=02e79bc442&id=51801315
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=32277593&l=f0736fd143&id=51801315
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=31862045&l=e175ab87c6&id=51801315
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=31862044&l=8c39df8728&id=51801315
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=31554201&l=2bc9bcb99e&id=51801315

And here's the best shot I've found so far of me in the saddle from the side. Dressage length stirrups.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=32795522&l=696544d9be&id=51801315

And another:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=32451203&l=2dd0ff47d7&id=51801315

(I feel like an attention whore right now, posting all these pics!)

[Bogie]

Looking at your latest photos I'd definitely say it's your saddle. When your stirrups are dressage length, you look more balanced in it. Over fences with shorter stirrups you are fighting your tack. You may also be pinching with your knees.

I think it's the position of the stirrup bars.

[Viva]

My favorite exercise for overall position is jumping a gymnastic without your reins, arms held out to the sides (we call it the angel). Do it with one hand out to the side first, over a small x, then progress to a bounce, and add from there--we often do a double bounce to a one-stride vertical to an oxer by the time we finish. Eventually work your way up to doing it without your hands. Tie a knot at the end of your reins, drop them on the neck one or two steps before takeoff, and extend your arms, picking up your reins on the landing side of the exercise. Trot in, using trot poles if necessary to keep your horse from getting quick.
I love this because your body learns very instinctively to put itself in the correct position, hip angle closed, shoulders back and back flat, and lower leg underneath you. Plus it's great for learning to deal with the inevitable situations where you get left behind, your horse stumbles or whatever and you have to slip the reins to the buckle and stay out of the way!

[asterix]

I agree with everyone else. It's the saddle. Or, at least, it's largely the saddle. You will probably have to retrain your muscles/position memory once you get a new saddle, but until then it's going to be tough.

Can you trot around, standing STRAIGHT up, without (much) using your hands to balance? Good test of whether the saddle is right for you, plus a good strengthener for you.

[joharavhf]

CHUCK the saddle!!!! Seriously - it looks fine for flat work, but it is doing you NO favors jumping. You do have a long thigh and you are tall for a woman :D
So get a saddle with a more forward flap and it should at least start helping you use the exercises written in here to your advantage. Otherwise it's just going to be a terrible fight!

[RunForIt]

What's everyone's opinion about using a saddle with this flap structure for EARLY jumping - x-rails, low verticals 2' - 2'6", low spreads, and low gymnastics? Asking because my thigh is long and I can't afford to buy a XC saddle at the moment. Have a lovely Amerigo CC saddle that PUTS my leg in the correct position...over poles.

I am going to take pics of the Albion Ultima and inquire if Amerigo makes a simlar flap for their XC saddles...Rasta loves the Amerigo tree he's in. :cool:

[asterix]

If the saddle puts your leg in a correct position, there's no problem! It's not like there is some law about what the flap needs to be across the board.
I learned to jump a zillion years ago in an absolutely flat-as-a-pancake saddle (I still have it somewhere) and in pictures my leg looks just fine (this is in the ring only!). I am sure that saddle didn't help any but it didn't get in my way, either.

THis one just looks like it is really hurting the OP's position. If she can't get into a 2 point and just gallop along, as in her galloping pic, and put her leg in the correct position, then it is interfering.

[Lincoln]

If you want to feel a completely different way of sitting, trying a saddle like the others have suggested that gets your feet on the dash a bit more might really be the trick. I like an Ainsley ProNational (cheap and good saddle for that purpose.) I end up on the horse's neck in most saddles (worst imaginable is a Devoucoux that others adore), happy as can be in a very forward flap saddle with enough room to slide my butt around and get my knees way out in front of me. And I'm a dressage rider, really, who wants my knees WAY under me on the flat in a really deep vertical seat. So, like the others suggested, try a bunch of different saddles until you find one that's the Goldilocks "just right". Should really help. Just keep enjoying yourselves - you two look GREAT!

[lstevenson]

You have to be able to push your hips back in order to push your lower leg forward.

[Janet]

I'll process the rest of your post later when its not 5:50 am!

Its actually an 18" Stubben Sigfried jumping-model! It has a large knee block towards the top of the saddle, not the long thin roll.
If the saddle isn't too small, then you are sititng too close to the back of the saddle.

That makes me think that the saddle problem is not the size (either of the seat or the flaps) but the relationship between the center of the seat and the stirrup bars. The stirrup bars need to be further forward. The result of the stirru bars being too far back (in relation to the seat) is that, when you are sitting down, it is pushing your seat out the back of the saddle, and when you get up in the stirrups, it makes you tip forward (and your legs slide back.

Shortening your stirrups actually makes the problem worse.

So does anything that raises the back of the saddle.

I'd actully try lengthening you stirrups a hole, and practice riding in two point (with slack in the reins and without leaning on the neck) at the walk and trot. If you can't do that at all, the problem is probably the saddle. If you can do it, but not for a long time, you need to get stronger by practicing. You should be able to walk or trot in two point, without using your hands or reins for balance, for at least 5 minutes, on the flat and up and down hill.


Once you deal with the saddle and strength problems, the mental image find most helpful is to think about "landing into my heels". I start focusing on that mental image about 2 strides before the fence, and focus on it until a stride after the fence. It is OK to grap mane if you worry that you will get left.

[Janet]

Based on the "dressage length" picture, I think the saddle is too small.

Thigh length is not neccesarily correlated with height or even leg length. A bunch of us standing around at a clinic once did an experimental measurement. Some of the people with a short "inseam" had a long thigh bone, and vice versar.

[ezmissg]

I think the one thing my trainer would tell me - "show me the soles of your boots over the fence" - was a great visual for me.

Isn't it interesting how a few words can create an entirely different conceptual understanding of the action needed?

I have been perching too much, and I thought about this when riding today. It made a significant improvement to my position and security! :cool:

Please pass on my thanks to your trainer!! :yes: :D

[silver2]

If you can borrow an old plain flap hunt-style saddle for a few months and ride without stirrups a lot it will make a world of difference in your balance. Once you have that sorted out- then buy a new saddle because you'll know where you need your leg to be.

[eqsiu]

You stole my lower body! Try sitting in some Amerigos. Last year at Rolex they were to only ones I found (not considering custom) that had a thigh block that was above my thigh and not under my knee.

[RunForIt]

You stole my lower body! Try sitting in some Amerigos. Last year at Rolex they were to only ones I found (not considering custom) that had a thigh block that was above my thigh and not under my knee.

I love my Amerigo CC, but Albions also have the necessary "above the knee" thigh block - at least for some folks its necessary. I evented my retired guy in an Albion XC Lightweight and it completely spoiled me....am going to investigate two possibilities as we get closer to needing a real XC saddle: 1: get an Albion fitter AND my completely better-than-wonderful saddle fitter and Rasta together to see if the Albion Ultima Kontrol will work on Rasta (Rasta has the final say). 2: send pics of that saddle to Amerigo and inquire if they have a saddle made with same flap design.

The 3rd option will be to ask David Stackhouse to provide the latter. May have to go that route. His saddles are about $800-$1000 more than the semi-custom Amerigos...Ouch! Ouch!! and MORE Ouch!!!!! However the ouch in Rasta's back will be avoided at all costs - otherwise there's no purpose in even buying a saddle....

[Roney]

Isn't it interesting how a few words can create an entirely different conceptual understanding of the action needed?

I have been perching too much, and I thought about this when riding today. It made a significant improvement to my position and security! :cool:

Please pass on my thanks to your trainer!! :yes: :D


Glad it helped! I was just thinking about it during our jump lesson yesterday. I'll let her know. :)

[medical mike]

YOu are definitely over dominating with you lateral hamstring, especially jumping. I feel your kneecaps pain..............which probably contributes to your problem.....
I should have also asked to what degree you are "knocked kneed"

That said, if you stand in normal life with the toes out, my guess is that is how you are built. That does not mean you can't minimize how much turn out you get going out over jumps, it does mean that trying to fight turn out will create its own set of problems.

I'll stick with my generic fix.

Especially the slide board squeezes. I would bet that your knees "wiggle" when you go through a squatting motion or sit to stand from a chair. Fix that wiggle and most of your trouble will be gone. If you are consistent with the off horse exercises figure 2 months.

Regards,
Medical Mike
equestrian medical researcher
www.fitfocusedforward.us
soon to be equicision.com

[tlw]

I played around with some of the suggestions to see which ones would keep my lower leg forward. Actually, turning my toes out with the little toe on the outside branch a la George Morris didn't put the lower legs forward but it sure kept them from sliding back. When I keep my feet parallel to the horse's barrel allows the legs to pivot backwards. I just never learned the toe out calf on thing but it seems to work - at least for me.

[eqsiu]

Does anyone think that having knee rolls removed from a saddle would help in this situation? I have the same problem, and I know it has a lot to do with my saddle. I can't afford even the cheapest of saddles right now, but my dad id paying to have my saddles fitted to my horse for my b-day, and I though maybe I could have the saddler take the knee rolls off and that would keep the saddle from pushing my leg back so much while jumping.

http://s142.photobucket.com/albums/r92/woochles/Royal%20Belle/?action=view&current=Kelly006.jpg

[eponacowgirl]

Just a quick update here:

Here I am in my friend's Stubben Monoflap on her horse:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/murrayprincess24/IMG_7118.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/murrayprincess24/IMG_7115.jpg

Better, but not perfect...

I'm currently trying another COTHer's Ainsley Chester- and I've never sat in a saddle and gone "Wow! Leg position! EASY!" I schooled my mare around a 3' course in it the other day and felt rock solid. I love,love,love it, but my grey mare is on the market and the saddle fits her perfectly... but I'm not sure what my next horse will be! *sigh*

At anyrate, I'll be riding in it tomorrow at Jim Graham's Jumper Derby and hope to have some pictures of me in it tomorrow afternoon.

In the meantime, I removed the knee block (major surgery!) out of my Stubben and its been helping significantly as my "main saddle!"

[Larbear]

My favorite exercise for overall position is jumping a gymnastic without your reins, arms held out to the sides (we call it the angel).

Another chime in for this exercise as well, ditch the reins but keep the stirrups. It's kind of "sink or swim" :D Another good one along the same lines is to keep the reins but hold them in the driving position. Both are good for working on your two point and for over fences.

[jen-s]

Eponacowgirl--I feel your pain! Looking at your pictures was like looking at many of my own from recent months. I'm an adult re-rider who had a fabulous leg as a kid/college student. Coming back to riding after 4 years out of the saddle has been tough and complicated by the fact that I've known since my first ride on my leased gelding that his saddle DOES NOT fit me at all. Things finally came to a head (of sorts) yesterday in a lesson when my trainer suggested switching saddles and all of a sudden, I had a leg again.

I grew up in pancake eq saddles and the huge knee blocks/rolls that are on the Thornhill that I'm riding in along with stirrup bar placement have rocked my world in a bad way for months. Things weren't too bad until I started jumping a little higher (still weanie height though) and everything has fallen apart. Neither of my own saddles give my horse enough wither clearance, so I'm starting saddle shopping. On a budget. A crappy budget. Ugh. I'd almost rather bathing suit shop! But it's the right thing for both of us and in the long run, will help us continue to advance. And as my trainer pointed out yesterday, if I don't get a saddle that fits me so that I can get more secure in the saddle over fences, then one of these days, I'm gonna get hurt. She's right and I'm shopping.

Good luck to you. Please keep us posted on how things go as you try saddles--what you like and don't like.

[flea]

My coach is having me drop the reins just before I take off in a small gymnastics line. (like two crossrails) Just drop them and keep hands low although not touching the horse. If you throw them and put your hands out it tends to pitch your chest forward. (and I want them near the reins in case!)I have realized my balance and leg position is not as good as I thought. I am just a geriatric novice/training level rider but thought I would throw this in the discussion. I would think that would show how the saddle is affecting your position, it is really helping.