Need advise/guidance on an issue that arose at Galway last weekend.

[mjrtango93]

I'm looking for some advise and guidance, and hopefully some ideas from the eventing community on an issue that my trainer encountered while teaching at Galway Downs last weekend. Basically I got a call Saturday morning (I was home covering lessons while they were away) about 10 minutes after my friend was due to run her prelim rider horse trials course, only the call wasn't to tell me how her ride went but instead to tell me about the latest incident with an FEI official that we have had issues with for roughly the past 10 years or so. It is getting to the point that it is interrupting her teaching, and it's just overall uncalled for.

For those of you that know Galway, my trainer had parked her golf cart over on the outside of the CIC end box and was teaching my friend on her young horse who was upset as the warm up was a little nutty. This FEI official came over and very loudly and confrontationally ordered my trainer to move her golf cart and that if she had to be in warmup to park over parallel to the warm up oxer on the edge of the footing.

Here is where a little fill in will be needed for those of you that don't know my trainer--she is not in the golf cart because she wants to be, she is a paraplegic and a golf cart or an ATV are the only ways for her to get around (those of you from area VI probably just figured out who this is). To add insult to injury the official actually said something to the effect of "So you can't walk at all then?" and suggested that it would be better for her to be in her wheelchair then in the golf cart (now in what world is someone safer around large, heavy, fast objects safer in a wheelchair then a golf cart?????).

We have encountered shows that have been better and more accommodating then others, we didn't have a single issue at Jersey Fresh last year (thank you!), only a small problem the year I went to Rolex (accosted by a few course decorators, who hadn't been informed but were accepting once the situation was explained, so thank you!), but have had her pushed out of 10 minute boxes at young riders (it was her horse, her student), told she wasn't allowed on the cross country course because of the footing, and have been chased down by many stewards and officials in warm ups and courses, and been the subject of complaint by fellow competitors (because she was allowed a golf cart and they weren't). Really we just want to avoid this happening at all, for anybody, as we know that we do not have the only trainer or barn member around that is not able bodied and needs some accommodation to perform their job or attend the show. My trainer wants to just fly under the radar with this, she doesn't want to be plastered in handicapped placards for the duration of the event, she just wants to do her job in as graceful a way as possible. We try our best to call the shows out of our area to let them know beforehand of the situation, but it would really be nice if this was just not an issue. The events that we frequent have no issues anymore, except when outside officials come in, but it's at times like these that it would be nice if something were in place. So what do you guys think? What needs to be done to educate the organizations on compliance with ADA? Should the ADA get in contact with the respective federations and conduct a training, letter from a lawyer, should we contact the federations separately speak with the presidents?

[AKB]

Perhaps the event organizers could be contacted ahead of time to approve her displaying a special parking permit on her golf cart. It doesn't have to say handicapped, but should say something indicating that she can park in warmup and at the start box.

[SevenDogs]

I feel badly for your trainer, but I do feel that she should be prepared to have visible credentials so that the officials understand. You state that she "wants to just fly under the radar with this, she doesn't want to be plastered in handicapped placards for the duration of the event", but then how is an official supposed to recognize that she IS authorized to be in areas that are restricted to golf carts?

You state: "We try our best to call the shows out of our area to let them know beforehand of the situation, but it would really be nice if this was just not an issue". I do agree that it would be nice if there were no issues but that is not realistic. You can't park in handicapped parking without visible credentials and I don't see how this is different.

It is an unfortunate fact of life that selfish people have been know to lie to officials for their own convenience and similarly, others just ignore the rules. Officials are trying to protect the competitors and horses who should ALWAYS take priority over coaches, owners, and spectators. If I were an official or volunteer and saw a golf cart where it didn't belong that didn't have credentials, I would ask you to move too. As a competitor that had no idea you were authorized to be on the course, I might complain about disturbing the footing. The key is your trainer must identify her disability if she expects to be accomodated.

Let me be clear: I believe those with handicaps should be accomodated by shows and officials. However, the person with the handicap must be willing to identify themselves and go through the proper channels to get the appropriate assistance needed. I find it interesting that you don't want to have to go through that hassle of identifying yourself but are willing to talk about getting lawyers involved. ADA laws would only come into play if your trainer was discriminated against by someone who KNEW she was disabled. I seriously doubt any official or organizer would deny your trainer reasonable accomodations if she was appropriately identified --and I don't believe just driving into a restricted area and telling someone is enough. I have stood next to the officials and heard just about everything you can imagine and 99% of it is BS.

We had a similar need (be able to take a golf cart onto the XC Course) and had no problems whatsoever. We contacted the organizers, obtained special permission, and carried it with us to show any official that needed that information, so I know it can be done.

Kudos to you for trying to protect your trainer and friend but I think you have to be realistic about openly identifying the need if you want to be accomodated. I think you will find that just about everyone will want to help out if you give them the chance.

[Small Name Trainer aka SNIT!]

Sorry to hear more about how selfish our competitors seem to be to each other! Just got thru yesterday voluteering at the Nor Cal CDI show..all dressage. Management had scheduled classes and acepted entries for Para Equine physically handicapped dressage riders... that came all the way from B.C. and then made NO warm up accomodations for them and the only warm up pen was occupied by 12 to 17 horses all day and even though 2 non-handicapped riders got painfully launched from their mounts during the day still did not get the point that unless SHOW MANAGEMENT makes sure other officials and competitors are to help you and work with you, your fellow competitors certainly do not. These girls were subjected to being deliberatly "dive bombed" by the trainers and others in the warm up even after being asked by me repeatedly to give them 10 minutes to use a small portion of the ring to work around their instructor. I was a volunteer, with clipboard and walkie talkie and earlier in the day I commandeered the lunging warm up for 20 minutes after seeing the look on the riders faces after viewing the only fenced adequate warm up on the grounds. The 2 people lunging yielded their space graciously....and the folks working with and helping these girls were so gratefull for being able to work safely and quietly....I just got on the walkie talkie and told the other folks working as ring stewards what I was up to...Show management was not pleased! The second time they had to warm up was embarrassing to me as a human being, much less an eventer and dressage rider and trainer. I personally think that those that cannot open their eyes before their mouth to complain that someone is getting something special which they are not getting makes them the one with the handicap!!!! Show management has a responsablity to inform show officals and volunteers what the protocal is, you should not have to wear a sign proclaiming your private condition just be treated with courtesy and respect as a fellow horseman. BNT's and grown adults were behaving like spoiled children. I feel for you that show officials make your trainer's condition even more difficult to just deal with. I am sure she has better things to do then constantly defend herself against being a "rule" breaker!

[SevenDogs]

Small Name Trainer: The behavior you witnessed at that dressage show was awful. Unfortunately, it is not uncommon dressage show behavior at all, regardless of whether or not there are disabled riders in the arena. I was shocked by the behavior of the big name dressage rider in the warm up when I attended my first large dressage show after eventing for a number of years.

That being said, no one is advocating this trainer wear a scarlet "D" on her chest or, as you put it "wear a sign proclaiming your private condition". However, since her disability is not obvious (she looks like any other golf cart occupant), she should expect to be able to show some kind of credential in order to travel in restricted areas.

[Jazzy Lady]

Why doesn't she just talk to the show office and get special permission in writing that she can hang on her golf cart saying she's allowed.

Competitors will always bitch and complain that someone else is on course and they aren't with their vehicles. That is their problem, not your coach's.

[SevenDogs]

[QUOTE=Jazzy Lady;3997536]Why doesn't she just talk to the show office and get special permission in writing that she can hang on her golf cart saying she's allowed.

:yes::yes::yes:

[Sebastian]

I've been to a number of Events in CA where trainers with physical issues were given placards for golf carts/atvs, etc. and allowed to be on the XC course (while "walking" with students, not while competition is running) and next to Warm-up.

Next time talk to Robert or Christina ahead of time and I'm sure they will work something out...

Seb :)

[mjrtango93]

This is exactly why I started the post, just looking for what possible solutions would/could be, obviously what has been done so far isn't working.

At young riders she was kicked out of the 10 minute box when she was the owner of the horse, the trainer of the rider, and was the team manager (with the appropriate pass around her neck) sitting in her wheelchair. The show had been made aware of beforehand when the golf cart was ordered for her to use that week. What further could have been done?

At Foxhall, she was chased down while on the outside of the gallop lane by the official in their golf cart. The golf cart was given to her by the office to use because her's was being delivered the next day, and pretty sure the golf cart had some official sign plastered on the front. Worst part of this show was that it was actually being sponsored by a handicapped program.

At Rolex, again that was the office's golf cart. Janie did jump all over that one though and we continued through the rest of the week with no incidence. They even made sure the courtesy shuttle was available to help her get around.

We understand the footing concern, our horses are out there as well. The course walks are typically done the first chance the courses are available before the footing is even completed. She doesn't drive down the paths, instead staying just off the footing or outside the gallop lanes only going on to see the line to trickier or the more complex questions, typically just driving right past a majority of the course never touching the footing. As a trainer, if other trainers can walk up to the fence then she has the same rights.

We have alerted the show grounds, even used their carts and still run into resistance. For the shows around us, or if just 1 or 2 are making a big trip and she takes her quad there are still issues. Her quad is distinctive so is easily spotted. This weekend she wasn't even in a golf cart restricted area and she was approached. Alerting the shows doesn't seem to be working, and we are looking for other options. Keep the suggestions coming!

ETA: Regarding Robert and Christina we know them both quite well and neither one of them, or the shows they put on, have been a problem with the show grounds, they have always been more then willing to work with my trainer. Its the officials that we are still having issues with, and while Robert or Christina can say something to them (which I know at least Robert has) it keeps happening.

[Sebastian]

Ah, that makes the "picture" and your frustrations clearer... :yes:

I hate to say this but, maybe it's time to start taking the "officials" to task and file some sort of complaint with USEA/USEF??? You may have already done that, just thinking out loud... Is the issue mostly with Volunteers, or the TDs themselves?

It sounds like your trainer is fairly well known...I'm really surprised that people don't just "get it"...but then, I'm not -- I've come to realize that "common sense" is just NOT common anymore.

Seb :)

[Small Name Trainer aka SNIT!]

print herself some bumper stickers to put on each golf cart/wheeled vehicle she uses that say "This vehicle and I are allowed to be here. Are you?" or my all time favorite on a private golf cart..."Women with guns have more fun!".....If she is being stopped even in vehicles with passes or signs that say official show vehicle then the problem is not being addressed by the people that are preventing her from being where she needs to be...so complain to those folks governing body....if it is USEF or USEA address letters to those assn.'s directly and start filing out official complaint forms...again, show management signs the contracts and hires those folks for the most part....maybe another line on the contract stipulating compliance with handicap laws! Ignorance of the rules is no reason to disregard them, and maybe show officials will have to attend a seminar about the do's and don't of handicapp access at the shows, when they are the associations representative when hired to work them. People are required to attend all sorts of training seminars to deal with all sorts of issues....maybe the eventing and horse world needs to come current with today's sporting needs!

[afm]

As a mother of a child with multi-handicaps (Cerebral Palsy) and two daughters who Pony Club, the older one Events, I can understand and appreciate your situation.

When my older daughter is entered in an Event, I contact the event organizer in advance, explain my situation and ask for the organizers advise/assistance for where it would be best to park (pushing a wheelchair through sand and up and down hills is quite challenging), where to position ourselves during the XC phase so that we can see as much as possible without being in the way (usually we are offered to drive in our truck and park some place on or near the XC course), may we be assigned a stall towards the end of the barn (so we do not have to maneuver a wheelchair through the crowded aisles), etc. For the most part, our requests are met very graciously and receive knowledgeable, kind guidance. I have found, however, it best to approach the situation by seeking the organizers guidance/assistance/advise and detailing what would be helpful to me -- the organizers are responsible for all participants and the overall running of the the event and may have some thoughts, from an overall perspective, that I may not consider.

When my daughter started showing when she was younger and we did not have our son (daughter is 15, son is 4), I always made it a point to personally thank the show organizers (the day of the show) for the nice day we had at the show. If I had an e-mail contact, I would follow up with an e-mail thank you. Now, having my son and being granted 'accommodations', I still make an effort to thank the organizers for organizing the event, but I also take an opportunity to introduce myself and thank them for the added accommodations they extended to my family (we may have taken advantage of the accommodations or not...the organizer usually does not know), but I thank them in person and follow-up with an e-mail as well. This too helps them to remember us when we visit the next time.

I hope the above is of some help. I too do not want my son labeled "handicapped" -- klc will tell you he is quite cute, charming and smart, besides being handicapped (anyone at FENCE will see us today). However, I have found it helpful, for us, to state our situation and ask for professional guidance, as event organizers, and we can still "fly under the radar" so to speak, but have our needs met.

I wish your trainer all the best! Life has its own challenges, but ignorance can be overcome with knowledge and education. Educate the event organizers as to what your needs are.

Best regards,
afm

[FlightCheck]

Flame suit ON and ready!!

I'm not an official, but I play one at shows.

Your trainer needs to "woman up" and get some signs.

Officials come in for the weekend and are told 'NO GOLF CARTS AT (WHEREVER), NO EXCEPTIONS".

We don't know your trainer, or anyone else. We see a golf cart, we go after it. That's our JOB.

We also get to hear the whining from others. "But you SAID no golf carts, and there's someone in warmup/on course/etc with a golf cart, why can't I have MY golf cart".

And, BTW, I was IN the safety meeting at Galway and heard, very clearly, "NO VEHICLES, NO GOLF CARTS, NOTHING. NO EXCEPTIONS."

However, a nice early courtesy call goes a long way - "So and so's coming and can't walk, could we get her out to the water so she can see her horse go?'

Absolutely.


Stupid golf carts and scooters cause me more headaches at shows than anyone can ever imagine.

[Badger]

I agree that a sign would make a huge difference and simplify things for everyone involved.

[flyingchange]

I don't have any advice but just wanted to say how sorry I am that your trainer has to deal with this on top of everything else. I can see both sides. It is a quagmire. Warm up at events is so electric these days. Having to deal with this kind of issue doesn't help. Sounds like she does everything possible to keep the cart out of the way and in a discreet place (as much as possible).

I guess if you guys could possibly send a letter to the TD to read at the safety meeting at these events, reminding them that you will be using a golf cart, so there IS an exception that needs to be made. And perhaps put a handicap sticker/sign on the back and front of the cart that officials easily recognize. I understand the issue of the stigma, but I think an easily recognizable symbol on the cart might help.

[Innocent Bystander]

Donning my flame suit as well.

I'm sorry your trainer is in this situation, but, having worked in numerous 10 minute boxes, I would not want a person in a wheel chair or motorized vehicle in there while horses are coming through. It's a matter of safety and someone could get seriously hurt, not to mention how unfair it would be to a competitor if their horse spooked at the chair, got injured, and was unable to continue. Frankly, I don't see a wheel chair as much different from a baby carriage. Their occupants are in them because they can't walk and we certainly should not allow carriages in a 10 minute box or warm-up.

As far as granting special privleges to persons with physical challenges, I have no problem with this up to a point. Where I draw the line is when granting those special privleges impacts other competitors or requires a major bending of the rules. Everyone should have an equal chance to compete in a satisfatory manner and everyone should be held to the same standard as far as the rules go.

I completely agree with Flightcheck and, I know this may sound harse but..., it's not like the rules are a secret. Everyone should know them and determine if they are able to comply with them before they choose to enter an event. If they are physically unable to comply with certain rules and still wish to participate, then they need to figure out a way to do what they want without making it someone else's problem. In this case, it sounds like your trainer wants her cake and eat it too. She wants special considerations which will place focus upon her, yet she also wants to "fly under the radar". She can't have it both ways.

[RoeVee]

Holy cow - in the 10 minute box in a wheelchair?! :eek: Usually the horse has the right away at Horse Trials - but what do you do in that situation if you have a horse being 'silly', which many horses are during the 10 minute box? Hopefully your trainer is being very careful.

That being said - her having a BIG card identifying her as being able to be in a restricted place in a golf cart, (where it is safe for the horse!), should hopefully fix the problem.

One thing to keep in mind, the officials are not discriminating against your trainer but trying to keep the horses safe - which is their job. Those rules are in place to keep the horses safe. If your trainer is breaking the rules - she SHOULD expect to questioned if she does not have a sign.

[baxtersmom]

Donning my flame suit as well.

Frankly, I don't see a wheel chair as much different from a baby carriage. Their occupants are in them because they can't walk and we certainly should not allow carriages in a 10 minute box or warm-up.

As far as granting special privleges to persons with physical challenges, I have no problem with this up to a point. Where I draw the line is when granting those special privleges impacts other competitors or requires a major bending of the rules.

I hope someone who's been here longer that me will point out the utter offensiveness of these sentences, especially the ignorance of your analogy about the baby carriage. In the meantime, you may want to look up the Americans with Disabilities Act, which requires "reasonable accommodation" for people with disabilities in all public places, particularly if they are performing their job. :no:

[flutie1]

If, as you seem to indicate, it's the same official that is the problem, write a well documented letter to the Licensed Officials Committee of USEF. It certainly seems that from your report the show committee is complying with the ADA "reasonable accommodation" requirement.

[seeuatx]

Maybe a handicap driver placard would help...

Just so others know, the "golf carts, no exceptions" would not fly if ADA or ACLU were to get involved. Restaurants don't allow dogs... but if a service dog is brought THEY CANNOT TURN IT AWAY and in fact MUST make specific accommodations for that person. Frankly, with all the bad press Eventing has received lately, the last thing needed is a press release from ADA or the ACLU letting the whole world know that the eventing community discriminates. Lovely.

[retreadeventer]

....My trainer wants to just fly under the radar with this, she doesn't want to be plastered in handicapped placards for the duration of the event, she just wants to do her job in as graceful a way as possible. We try our best to call the shows out of our area to let them know beforehand of the situation, but it would really be nice if this was just not an issue. The events that we frequent have no issues anymore, except when outside officials come in, but it's at times like these that it would be nice if something were in place. ...


This is a great question! My view:

Unfortunately, what you are asking for IS special treatment -- when you want her to be able to be around and get places in her UNMARKED golf cart. By accepting handicapped placards on her transportation, you would solve most of your difficulties. Unfortunately that would mean she would have to be designated handicapped. I see no reason why this isn't considered "graceful". I know many incredibly gifted, talented, graceful and considerate handicapped people who do not look down on the handicapped designation nor are ashamed or want to hide the fact that they need handicapped accessibility at events, horse shows, or even the parking lot at Walmart. I think your trainer brings confrontation on by not being upfront and correctly designated. (There's nothing graceful about a stink-up with an official at cross country warmup!, the last place I am sure she would want something to be said.)

My advice - Put the handicapped placard ON -- attend all briefings and meetings and make sure they know you will be on warmup, near start, on course -- etc. and find out what areas are restricted and which are not. Your trainer sounds like she is well liked and I see no reason why she can't be accepting of her condition and of the accessibility requirements. Obviously an unmarked golf cart running around on places no one else can go around is favoritism or looked upon as such, and creates bad feelings. It's unfair to assume "everyone knows".

And with regard to the official...I am sure they probably saw the golf cart, got mad, assumed it was someone able bodied, realized mistake too late, to save face figured something nasty to say. Maybe they think your trainer should be walking, or in an able bodied way, and resents her handicapped designation. If so that's their prejudice, and there's not much you can do about people who feel that way toward the handicapped. Smile, be gracious, move the cart - and next time make sure officials can see the handicapped sign and are aware of her transportation needs at your events.

it bears reminding that handicapped accessibility is federal law, but organizers also have safety concerns with horse areas and the law allows them to restrict handicapped access in unsafe areas. That is I am sure subject to interpretation, but I think we all know how dangerous horses can be even to able bodied folks in the wrong place at the wrong time.
:)

[retreadeventer]

Flame suit ON and ready!!

I'm not an official, but I play one at shows.

Your trainer needs to "woman up" and get some signs.

Officials come in for the weekend and are told 'NO GOLF CARTS AT (WHEREVER), NO EXCEPTIONS".

We don't know your trainer, or anyone else. We see a golf cart, we go after it. That's our JOB.

We also get to hear the whining from others. "But you SAID no golf carts, and there's someone in warmup/on course/etc with a golf cart, why can't I have MY golf cart".

And, BTW, I was IN the safety meeting at Galway and heard, very clearly, "NO VEHICLES, NO GOLF CARTS, NOTHING. NO EXCEPTIONS."

However, a nice early courtesy call goes a long way - "So and so's coming and can't walk, could we get her out to the water so she can see her horse go?'

Absolutely.


Stupid golf carts and scooters cause me more headaches at shows than anyone can ever imagine.

Flightcheck, is there some way that officials can be alerted of handicapped needs ahead of time, say on an entry blank or with an entry so that the organizers know ahead of time to expect handicapped trainers, owners, or coaches?

I know what I am proposing will make headaches but....to comply with FEDERAL law I think if you have a handicapped trainer or coach, it would be necessary to allow access to the course or at least major portions of the course. And the 10 minute box and warm ups. But I think that special areas will have to be roped off for those in wheelchairs. It may not be dangerous to that trainer's horses and riders who are used to the wheelchair, but it could be to other horses -- so if there is a handicapped trainer at the event, they would have to have a corner or roped off area adjacent to the particular place, that was safe to park the wheelchair or cart. With regard to course access, even a little local starter event has a roped off area right down the driveway for handicapped folks so they can watch and get access to the cross country to watch. Designating handicapped access is law....events will have to comply if requested...officials and organizers have to accomodate....but the placards and designations are a must I should think, as well as prior notification. I think organizers should be proud to accept handicapped challenges and create special accessible areas for these people, rather than see things as headaches and problems. It's forward-thinking and considerate of ALL people in the eventing world, not just the able bodied few. JMHO.

[Innocent Bystander]

I hope someone who's been here longer that me will point out the utter offensiveness of these sentences, especially the ignorance of your analogy about the baby carriage. In the meantime, you may want to look up the Americans with Disabilities Act, which requires "reasonable accommodation" for people with disabilities in all public places, particularly if they are performing their job. :no:Oh give me a freaking break. Offensive or not, this has nothing to do with discriminating against a person with disabilities and everything to do about safety.

And, you may want to take your own advice and look up the Americans with Disabilities Act yourself. It includes an exemption which allows a public accommodation to exclude participation in an activity if that participation would result in a direct threat to the health and safety of others (See exact wording below). Given that our sport is already widely acknowledged to include inherent dangers to all who participate in it under normal circumstances, I don't think it could be argued that this exemption would not apply.

Title III - Public Accommodations and Commercial Facilities - Chapter 3. General Requirements Subchapter 8000 Direct threat.
A public accommodation may exclude an individual with a disability from participation in an activity, if that individual's participation would result in a direct threat to the health or safety of others. The public accommodation must determine that there is a significant risk to others that cannot be eliminated or reduced to an acceptable level by reasonable modifications to the public accommodation's policies, practices, or procedures or by the provision of appropriate auxiliary aids or services. The determination that a person poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others may not be based on generalizations or stereotypes about the effects of a particular disability; it must be based on an individual assessment that considers the particular activity and the actual abilities and disabilities of the individual.

[Arcadien]

Taken out of context, I also found the analogy of an adult in a wheelchair to an infant in a baby carriage appalling, and since it was not needed to emphasize your point, unnecessarily cruel.

That aside, I support the clear signage idea. As a rider I might feel a spurt of resentment seeing a cart where it shouldn't be, but the second I saw the sign I would revert to feelings of "you go girl, still out there doing your job" and go on with mine.

Regards,
Arcadien

[Alterageous]

While it sounds clear to me that the 10-minute box incident was an issue of safety (I have seen fully able bodied people injured in the 10 minute box), I think a lot of the problems stem from the use of vehicles not traditionally associate with a medical or physical disability. If I see someone riding a quad, the last thing I am going to think is that that person is paralyzed in some way, even with a handicap placard or similar signage.

Thus, by trying to fly under the radar, your trainer is hurting her cause. If I see someone in a wheelchair, that person is clearly disabled. If she wants accomodation, she is going to have to be willing to clearly designate herself as needing accomodation, and be willing to accept that there are places she cannot go for the safety of all involved (i.e. the ten minute box.) If this interferes with the performance of her job, that's unfortunate, but it is not a reasonable accomodation to ask an event to allow someone to specifically be put in harm's way because they can't do their job like an able bodied person.

I understand the issue in that events are hard to get around, but they are meant to be traveled on foot or on horseback for many reasons, safety included. Your trainer needs to be willing to accept that though she is willing to put herself in danger, the officials who are responsible for her safety and the safety of all involved may not be.

Also, I find it interesting that you are asking about this on your trainer's behalf. Does she know that you're advertising her disability on the open internet/fighting her battles for her?

[Kementari]

Taken out of context, I also found the analogy of an adult in a wheelchair to an infant in a baby carriage appalling, and since it was not needed to emphasize your point, unnecessarily cruel.

Absolutely.

If you cannot discern the difference between a child in a stroller and a paraplegic adult, then you have no business trying to interpret the ADA. :no:

I've competed against someone who was in a wheelchair (not at an event), and not a single horse had a problem with it. If my horse can't handle seeing a wheelchair that's a gaping hole in HIS training, not any error on the handicapped person's part. For heaven's sake these are EVENTERS: with everything they might see on course, it's ridiculous to say they should be unhinged by a wheelchair - and dollars to donuts the courts would agree. ADA is not generally subject to such narrow interpretation.

Regardless, though, the subject of the thread is a golf cart, and I've seen plenty of those on course driven by officials in all sorts of places where the general public isn't allowed to have them, so you absolutely cannot make any logical argument that having a golf cart in a not-public-golf cart-access area is somehow unusually detrimental to the other competitors' safety.

I think discrete yet visible signage is the way to go. There's no reason to paint the whole golf cart in a handicapped symbol, but a couple of signs that are big enough to be seen from, say, across the warm-up wouldn't be amiss. I understand not wanting to advertise that one is disabled, but at the same time if one wants accommodation for that disability, one is going to have to be forthcoming about its existence. I don't think it's reasonable to expect every official at an event to instantly recognize that THAT PARTICULAR person is the one who's allowed to be in the area. A little bit of meeting them halfway to help clarify the issue seems like a good idea. :yes:

(I'll add, though, that the comment/attitude of the official cited - assuming that it is accurately portrayed - is absolutely inappropriate, and I hope it was reported to the organizers at the very least.)

[baxtersmom]

Title III - Public Accommodations and Commercial Facilities - Chapter 3. General Requirements Subchapter 8000 Direct threat.
A public accommodation may exclude an individual with a disability from participation in an activity, if that individual's participation would result in a direct threat to the health or safety of others. The public accommodation must determine that there is a significant risk to others that cannot be eliminated or reduced to an acceptable level by reasonable modifications to the public accommodation's policies, practices, or procedures or by the provision of appropriate auxiliary aids or services. The determination that a person poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others may not be based on generalizations or stereotypes about the effects of a particular disability; it must be based on an individual assessment that considers the particular activity and the actual abilities and disabilities of the individual.

IB, you clearly did not read your own information very well. I highly doubt that anyone would consider permitting an experienced horse trainer in a golf cart/ ATV in proximity to a XC course to be a direct threat that posed a significant risk to others that could not be eliminated or reduced by reasonable modification. The text you quoted is describing a situation such as allowing a blind person to drive an ambulance on the highway, not accommodating a person with a disability who simply wants to do her job. Interesting to see the lengths people will go to defend their prejudices, though.

[lduhamel]

If I'm not mistaken the thoughts about safety are in regards to the 10 box at a 3 day and possibly in the warm up, not walking the course with students. Sounds like the said trainer tries really hard to put her cart out of the way and do everything possible to be safe. But I must respectfully agree that a wheelchair has NO place in a 10 minute box. Maybe your horse might not spook at something so new, but many other would and that competitor paid their money for a safe environment for thier horse and themselves and everyone else. Many horses will jump the moon, but freak out at chair in the wrong place or turned over on its side. The 10 min box is a chaotic at best and you must be able move fast and safe, a wheelchair does not lend itself to this. Why could she not stay just out side the ropes and talk to her student???? She can't take care of the horse anyway, so why does she need to be in there in the first place??? I don't think this would fall in the catagory of interfering with the her ability to do her job under ADA, she can talk to her student over the rope. IF I was a competitor and my horse freaked out in the box over a wheelchair and got hurt, what is that trainer going to say to make my day better???? Nothing that would really help.

Put the sign on the golf cart. If you have a need, then you want it to be known and flying under the radar is not an option. If you don't want the confrontation, then put your signs on your cart and be done with it. People are worried about the safety of the competitors and their mounts and if this trainer is truely worried about that , then she needs to let her limitations be known so she can be safe as well. you can't park in a handicapped parking space without the tag!!! Don't expect people to know you have a limitation, no one can read minds or see things that are not totally obvious.

I'm glad that this trainer is doing well dispite her limitations and she obviously is good at her job with students that are so supportative. It is sad that many of our officials are so rude to the said trainer and to the eventing community as a whole, but is this reflective our society, I think so.

[Bright Eyes]

I have a lot of experience working with the ADA advocacy groups in the emergency management field. Very different from our sport, but I would like offer my suggestion. Since this is a continuing problem, it might be time to address it with the Eventing organizations and a ADA advocacy group. They might be able to provide some suggestions on making reasonable accommodations for both the disabled person and show organizers, so this isn't a problem. They could even assist the Eventing organizations with implementing an educational outreach program to officials and show organizers. The fact that this does go on is opening the door for a lawsuit. While I am not I am not suggesting a lawsuit needs to happen, maybe a formal letter to the different Eventing organizations that your participate in, with the suggestion of working with an ADA advocacy group would be beneficial.

[SevenDogs]

I have a lot of experience working with the ADA advocacy groups in the emergency management field. Very different from our sport, but I would like offer my suggestion. Since this is a continuing problem, it might be time to address it with the Eventing organizations and a ADA advocacy group. They might be able to provide some suggestions on making reasonable accommodations for both the disabled person and show organizers, so this isn't a problem. They could even assist the Eventing organizations with implementing an educational outreach program to officials and show organizers. The fact that this does go on is opening the door for a lawsuit. While I am not I am not suggesting a lawsuit needs to happen, maybe a formal letter to the different Eventing organizations that your participate in, with the suggestion of working with an ADA advocacy group would be beneficial.

Any Advocacy group would need to understand the intricacies of this sport, and I doubt they would.

I fully support this trainer's rights to be in certain restricted areas, but only when it is safe. Not only safe for the trainer but even more importantly, safe for the horses and riders. This sport is about the horses and riders first and foremost, and they should have absolute priority over trainers, coaches, owners, parents, grooms, etc. I want this person to be able to earn a living and I am glad she is still able to share her expertise, but that can not be at the expense of safety for the competitors (human and equine).

Should she have access to the warm-up areas and ten minute boxes? Yes, but only from the rail/sidelines. It would be totally unsafe for a disabled person (incapable of moving quickly when needed) to be INSIDE the warm-up areas or ten minute box. Similarly, it would not be appropriate for vehicles of any kind to be in a warm-up area or ten minute box (or similar situation). Horses are too unpredictable to be around someone who has limited mobility to get themselves to safety.

It makes me shake my head to see you discussing "opening the door for a lawsuit". What the heck do you think would happen if she were granted access to the ten minute box and a horse came in high as a kite and she got injured because she was unable to move? It wouldn't even be up to the trainer. Her insurance company would name the organizers, affiliated membership groups, officials and organizers to a lawsuit in two seconds for "knowingly letting a disabled person in an area where unpredictable animals can be out of control".

C'mon everyone! This is getting out of hand. The trainer needs to be willing to identify herself ahead of time, display proper credentials, and use good judgement in the areas she choses to go. If certain officials are not acting appropriately, they should be reported to the organizers and their governing bodies and dealt with.

I honestly believe that the majority of people would support any reasonable accomodation for this trainer and any other disabled person, but that we must keep our eye firmly on safety and giving horses and riders priority at a competition.

[canterlope]

C'mon everyone! This is getting out of hand. The trainer needs to be willing to identify herself ahead of time, display proper credentials, and use good judgement in the areas she choses to go. If certain officials are not acting appropriately, they should be reported to the organizers and their governing bodies and dealt with.

I honestly believe that the majority of people would support any reasonable accomodation for this trainer and any other disabled person, but that we must keep our eye firmly on safety and giving horses and riders priority at a competition.YES!!! SevenDogs, I completely agree.

I appreciate and sympathize with the challenges this trainer faces and I don't think it is unreasonable for her to ask for certain accommodations so that she can participate in a sport she very clearly loves. However, this can't just be all one sided. If she wants to receive special considerations, then she has to be willing to give some in return. And when she is granted special considerations, she must be mindful of the fact that her use of those considerations must be tempered with good judgment and a healthy dose of respect for others around her.

Should she have the right to be in the 10 minute box while confined to a wheelchair? If she has a horse entered in the event or is coaching a competitor, then yes, she should have the right to be in there. But, should she actually be in the 10 minute box given the potential risks involved to her and those around her? IMVHO, no. Wanting to be in a 10 minute box while in a wheel chair does not show good judgment nor does it show respect for others. This is a situation where personal responsibility and common sense, not a sense of entitlement or ADA rule, should rule the day.

Baxtersmom, I believe IB was talking about the 10 minute box, not a cross country course. And, while I don't agree with IB's rather, um, unique presentation of his/her opinion, having been party in two ADA cases involving the exact code section cited, it is my understanding that it would be applicable in this instance.

[Ajierene]

From the ADA website: http://www.ada.gov/cguide.pdf

From Title II, which involves State and Local Government Activities
"Public entities are not required to take actions that would result in undue
financial and administrative burdens."

"They are required to make reasonable modifications to policies, practices, and procedures where necessary to avoid discrimination, unless they can demonstrate that doing so would fundamentally alter the nature of the service, program, or activity being provided."

Title III, which covers Public Accomodations:

"Additionally, public accommodations must remove barriers in existing buildings
where it is easy to do so without much difficulty or expense, given the public accommodation’s resources."

Architectual Barriers Act:

"ABA requirements are limited to architectural standards in new and altered buildings and in newly leased facilities. They do not address the activities conducted in those buildings and facilities."

The above are examples of how the ADA works within limited parameters. Government sponsored activities do not have to accomodate to those with disabilities if those with disabilities would fundamentally alter the nature of the activity. An example may be someone without the use of their legs trying to gain access to a local government sponsored obstacle course, which requires running, climbing and jumping.

The ADA also makes exceptions for undue financial or administrative hardships. There are examples of this in every state in the form of historic buildings that do not have access ramps, or old forts or battlegrounds that do not have handicap access.

These examples illustrate that while the ADA is designed to avoid discrimmination as much as possible, there is also the understanding that depending on the disability, someone is not going to be able to take part in all the activities they would like to participate in. The ADA was not designed to give a blanket access card to disabled people, anywhere they want to go. It designed to give them reasonable accomodations.

Accomodations such as wheelchairs in the ten minute box do not constitute reasonable for various safety reasons, let alone hardships on the administrative staff. The ADA also does not, anywhere, state that the disabled person must be allowed to go anywhere without signage or statement stating that they are disabled - therefore wanting the 'special accomodation' of being allowed a golf cart where golf carts are not allowed may necessitate signage stating that the golf cart is allowed and the facility cannot be sued for someone lacking signage. This is similar to the fact that a police officer can ticket a car in a handicapped parking spot that has no signage and no matter how visibly handicapped the driver or passenger is, without signage to the effect the ticket is viable.

So, the trainer needs to be prepared to have signage (in this case a letter may be sufficient) displaying her 'special' status if she wants 'special' treatment.

[retreadeventer]

However, I don't think you can limit access to the course, or warmup areas, and certainly spots can be set up to allow access of a wheelchair bound owner or trainer NEAR the 10 min. box or vetting area. (Such as a corner or space overlooking the area near but not IN the area.)
I think that if the area is open enough, a clearly defined fenced off area can be set up adjacent to the warmup, or large fence complex on course, that is safe from other horses and/or spectators, yet allows the handicapped owner or trainer access the same as the able bodied.
I think most wheelchair bound folks are very aware of being safe and not getting stuck in places or around non-conditioned horses.
As I say, I think this is forward thinking and the right thing to do WHEN SAFE and POSSIBLE but would require the event having some prior knowledge so they could make arrangements.

[magnolia73]

I think it sounds like a communication issue. Communicate. Call ahead, check in and see what can be done. be clear with a pass or a sign. Don't assume you will be OK.

It's hard to get around with my dad these days. Therefore, we call ahead- will there be steps? Can he use a wheelchair? Can he have his oxygen? My mom has even dealt with staff at Ironman- a far bigger event than even Rolex. Happy staff, courteous and able to communicate how and when dad could get around by vehicle to watch my brother compete. You take a bit of time, call around, say what you need and figure it out. Get names.

My advice, before you send in an entry fee- call and say "my trainer needs a golf cart to get around- I need her at points X, Y and Z. Can she access those by cart?" It's not rocket science- It's YOU being proactive, calling, getting permission and communicating that you have permission. People go out of their way to help my dad and mom- they are always kind and have a sense of humor. Flies with honey..... It doesn't need to be a fight or confrontational.

[subk]

I would think that it would be just as beneficial to inform the TD before the start of the event as it would be the organizer.

[three_dayer]

from what i heard the tds and judges where up in arms about everything...yelling at one person about a event that happened a few weeks before that had nothing to do with this event, so i really think that they were on a mission to be nitpicky....I know this person and she has been coaching for a very long time with her disability. I know that the events in california know her condition and are very accomidating. whenever she is in a 10 minute box shes not in the middle of the chaos, she is off in a corner, well removed from the horses, and in my opinion very safe. Sorry, i think the placard is the only way to go, so you won't have so many confrontations

[Bright Eyes]

Any Advocacy group would need to understand the intricacies of this sport, and I doubt they would.

I fully support this trainer's rights to be in certain restricted areas, but only when it is safe. Not only safe for the trainer but even more importantly, safe for the horses and riders. This sport is about the horses and riders first and foremost, and they should have absolute priority over trainers, coaches, owners, parents, grooms, etc. I want this person to be able to earn a living and I am glad she is still able to share her expertise, but that can not be at the expense of safety for the competitors (human and equine).

Should she have access to the warm-up areas and ten minute boxes? Yes, but only from the rail/sidelines. It would be totally unsafe for a disabled person (incapable of moving quickly when needed) to be INSIDE the warm-up areas or ten minute box. Similarly, it would not be appropriate for vehicles of any kind to be in a warm-up area or ten minute box (or similar situation). Horses are too unpredictable to be around someone who has limited mobility to get themselves to safety.

It makes me shake my head to see you discussing "opening the door for a lawsuit". What the heck do you think would happen if she were granted access to the ten minute box and a horse came in high as a kite and she got injured because she was unable to move? It wouldn't even be up to the trainer. Her insurance company would name the organizers, affiliated membership groups, officials and organizers to a lawsuit in two seconds for "knowingly letting a disabled person in an area where unpredictable animals can be out of control".

C'mon everyone! This is getting out of hand. The trainer needs to be willing to identify herself ahead of time, display proper credentials, and use good judgement in the areas she choses to go. If certain officials are not acting appropriately, they should be reported to the organizers and their governing bodies and dealt with.

I honestly believe that the majority of people would support any reasonable accomodation for this trainer and any other disabled person, but that we must keep our eye firmly on safety and giving horses and riders priority at a competition.

I can certainly appreciate what you have to say. However, I do not think I did a good job communicating my ideas. So I'm going to take another swing at it by answering some of the things you brought up. The fact of the matter, that in my line of work, I have seen lawsuits or the threat thereof, started over much smaller issues. Typically it all stems over the interpretation of "reasonable accommodations." I believe that safety is paramount and supersedes any decision that is made.

While I'm not expecting and ADA advocacy group to know a lot about our sport, their input could add value and perspective to a conversation. Case in point, I didn't know the challenges that a disabled person faces while staying at a hurricane evacuation shelter and they didn't know the challenges that emergency managers/worker face maintaining such a shelter. However we learned a lot from each other. We were able to implement changes and increased educational awareness among workers/volunteers. And in that same spirit, the ADA advocacy group did a big push to increase educational awareness among the disabled population so they would have clear understanding as to what to expect at a shelter (defining "reasonable accommodation"), along with additional things they would need to bring to assist emergency workers in assisting them. It is very possible this same kind of conversation could happen with just as much benefit to all those involved in our sport.

I am sure there are plenty of well meaning and accommodating show organizers out there. It was not my suggestion that a lawsuit should be filed, nor that this particular trainer was looking to do so. My point was that a standardization of practices could protect our sport from an unnecessary lawsuit somewhere down the road. I'm sure you can agree, its just a conversation that needs to happen so this doesn't continue to be an issue and put those in our sport at risk. I hope this clears up my point, even if its long-winded. Thanks for hearing me out!

[poltroon]

I think it's worth noting that the way our sport has been going the past few years, we may have this situation of disabled professionals become more and more common, so it's worth getting some procedures in place. :(

[hey101]

I think it's worth noting that the way our sport has been going the past few years, we may have this situation of disabled professionals become more and more common, so it's worth getting some procedures in place. :(

what a tacky comment. :no:

[poltroon]

what a tacky comment. :no:

I'd rather see wheelchairs than memorials any day. :(
But the good news is that the technology for assistive devices gets better every year, making it more possible for people who are seriously hurt to stay in our sport if they wish.

[LisaB]

You know, I'm thinking of the few folks around here who are disabled and coach or help at shows. And not once have I seen a problem. You know why?
#1 they are easily identified by either their transport mechanism (i.e. wheelchair) or they have a sign on their golf cart
#2 while we are the largest concentration of eventers, we all know each other. And we generally know the coach or volunteer.
I'm sorry your coach had this issue. And I'm sure he/she doesn't want to be as 'recognized' for their disability but I think a sign is in order. Especially at a huge event where folks come from all over and don't know this person's situation.

[mjrtango93]

So it looks like everybody agrees on the signage, say either her blue handicap car placard hanging on the mirror in the golf cart or maybe just the logo sticker put on her quad. She hasn't gone to doing this all the time because per previous examples it doesn't work, we still got stopped. I like the idea of perhaps part of the TD and officials training (which they already have to do to get licensed) adding in a part for handicapped accessibility and a plan for shows. It doesn't need to take more then say 20-30 minutes in training that could go a long way. I will see who to contact in the associates to discuss adding something like this in.

For the 10 minute box I was not clear enough on what she was doing and where she was. As three_dayer pointed out she is not in the middle of the box around all the horses, she generally sits right outside the ropes by where we are, we go to a corner or by a tree or tent, areas that horses will not be frequenting. She is huge into our fitness and conditioning programs and is the one that keeps track of our tech and temps and time left, so she needs to be within ear shot.

Just because somehow the warm up accommodation turned into she was in the warm up, just to be clear, she has NEVER gone into a warm up for any phase either on the quad or in her chair. She sits right outside either the roped off area, or just outside the footing, and prefers to be in the golf cart/quad to her chair. She knows that just because our horses are totally fine with the chair that not everybody's horses are. Honestly though in the time she's been in the chair I have seen only a couple horses look at her and that was generally if she was moving. Also she does not request to go onto the course to watch, she will just pick a spot on a main road or that is open to the public for viewing. She is not asking for as much accommodation as some posters have been implying (sorry for not being clearer earlier but that was going to be one huge post).

[mvp]

I haven't read the whole thread, nor am I an expert in these matters. But it seems to me that show organizers are violating the spirit if not the letter of ADA law. They ought to be made aware of that fact for several reasons.

First, your disabled trainer would be legally entitled to accommodation in her "work place" had it been the corporate world. This doesn't seem different to me. But, she may well have to do her part, "Woman Up" and accept a handicapped placard for her golfcart.

The other reason to raise a stink is because this is the only way that legal protection for other disabled individuals has been gained so far. These laws are relatively young, and sometimes poorly enforced. We all collectively benefit from that, so it's worth doing. Demographers note that handicapped people are statistically more likely to live at or below the poverty level than does an able-bodied counterpart. That's serious, real and unconscionable.

I have no patience with people who find ways to continue prejudice of any sort. If your trainer wishes to accept the risks involved with making a living in the horse world, she ought not to be prevented from doing that by someone else conveniently or purportedly looking out for others who enjoy many more benefits.

Sorry to get all riled up to the point of making no sense.

[mjrtango93]

She is definately not looking to go the sueing route, more an education and how can it be avoided route. I just mentioned the letter from a lawyer because letters from lawyers tend to go more places then letters from the general public.

[burrbrookfarm]

Call ADA and report them, better yet, call the local newspapers or a tv station and report them. Sprinkle a little public attention their way and watch how quickly they learn to act properly.

[oldbutnotdead]

I suggest that instead of filing a lawsuit or alerting the media, the interested parties sit down together and create a workable, and safe, plan. Negotiations work best when the parties understand the issues, and honestly want to resolve them. Putting anyone on the defensive such as by filing a lawsuit or alterting the media, may not have the desired effect but may instead polarize the parties.

[mvp]

I know, it's not my place to hand an uphill-battle type of assignment to someone else.

But an SOB official who had been harassing me and making it hard to engage in my profession for a decade would seem to need some form of correction he or she could appreciate. Perhaps a subpoena as part of a larger lawsuit that would benefit many, many people is the right-sized tool for the job.

I think legal rights, unfortunately, get taken seriously only when the matter is pursued. That having been said, I think every wide-doored restroom or dedicated parking place in a public lot was the accomplishment of at least one person who thought big and perhaps had the moral and financial support of many others.

In any case, I think federal law ought to apply everywhere within the United States, with horse shows being no exception.

OK, I think I'm done now.

[Outyougo]

My sister works with service dogs. she points out the term is Dis Abled not Handicapped

Handicapped is a derogatory term from when teh "disables" had to beg with "Hand on the Cap"

The Dis abled riders are a boon to our sport and deserve respect and consideration

Remember but for grace and luck go you or I.

[Alterageous]

My sister works with service dogs. she points out the term is Dis Abled not Handicapped

Handicapped is a derogatory term from when teh "disables" had to beg with "Hand on the Cap"

The Dis abled riders are a boon to our sport and deserve respect and consideration

Remember but for grace and luck go you or I.

"Disabled" is not two words.

No one ever said she didn't deserve respect or consideration, just that safety was ALSO to be a consideration here.

[VicarageVee]

At Foxhall, she was chased down while on the outside of the gallop lane by the official in their golf cart. The golf cart was given to her by the office to use because her's was being delivered the next day, and pretty sure the golf cart had some official sign plastered on the front. Worst part of this show was that it was actually being sponsored by a handicapped program.

At Rolex, again that was the office's golf cart. Janie did jump all over that one though and we continued through the rest of the week with no incidence. They even made sure the courtesy shuttle was available to help her get around.



I'm an Area VI rider and know your trainer, and am upset to hear this happened--I've always thought its so nice how relaxed and accomodating people are. That said. Bottom line. It's against the law not to be. I don't want to see lawsuits slapped against any of my events or the Kentucky Horse Park, but she's dead to rights in this situation and the lack of facilities for those with disabilities is already a legal issue, but the discrimination is appalling--and illegal.

[Ajierene]

I haven't read the whole thread, nor am I an expert in these matters. But it seems to me that show organizers are violating the spirit if not the letter of ADA law. They ought to be made aware of that fact for several reasons.

This is a misguided statement. While the ADA was designed to avoid discrimination, it was also designed with the understanding that not everyone can go everywhere. If it will cost to much to make a building handicap accessible or where there is a safety issue at hand.

As I have previously stated, many historic buildings that are open to the public are not as handicap accessible because it will be to costly to the organization to make them handicap accessible. The ADA only asserts that buildings public buildings BUILT or LEASED BY THE GOVERNMENT AFTER 1990 are required to be handicap accessible. Private for profit or non profit organizations with building built before this time, where it would be a hardship to create handicap accessibility are not required to be handicap accessible.

Also, if there is a safety issue, the building is not required to make accommodations to handicap people. As an example, a distribution center I worked at would not allow anyone in a wheelchair, needing a walker, or otherwise mobility impaired onto the warehouse. You were not allowed to be hired there and you were not allowed to continue to work there if an accident rendered you mobility impaired after you started working there.

My sister works with service dogs. she points out the term is Dis Abled not Handicapped

Handicapped is a derogatory term from when teh "disables" had to beg with "Hand on the Cap"

The Dis abled riders are a boon to our sport and deserve respect and consideration

Remember but for grace and luck go you or I.


The word 'handicap' came from a game involving three people and evolved from there to mean 'making things equal' in sporting events(such as a golf handicap). It later evolved to the same meaning outside of the sports world and eventually to people who are disabled. It has no negative connotations and has never referred to anyone needing to beg for money for any reason.

http://www.snopes.com/language/offense/handicap.asp

[Carol Ames]

safer in a wheelchair then a golf cart?????).oh really, put him in a wheelchair and and let him wheel himself around on grass and mud:mad:

[Carol Ames]

Is this not similar to the case of the golfer who asked to ride in a cart because of a disability?:confused:




it would be enlightening to read the ruling on that case.

[subk]

It's great to see you here Carol!!! You just made my day...

The word 'handicap' came from a game involving three people and evolved from there to mean 'making things equal' in sporting events(such as a golf handicap). It later evolved to the same meaning outside of the sports world and eventually to people who are disabled. It has no negative connotations and has never referred to anyone needing to beg for money for any reason.
I believe more than the choice of words it's how they are used in a sentence. Correctly it is People *with* disabilities/handicaps or people who *have* disabilities/handicaps. NOT a "disabled person" or a "handicapped person"." The difference is that one defines a person who has and issue. The other is the issue defining the person.

[Badger]

Wonderful to have you back, Carol!!!!

[Doberpei]

The world would be a more pleasant place if everyone were just reasonable!

But, they're not, so*…

Everyone in the area seems to know the trainer, and the show organizers know the trainer, and that the trainer has special needs. However, because they know the trainer, and they know fully well that the trainer will be using a motorized vehicle (well duh, she has to), they forget in their briefings to mention it to the outside td/other officials. So the poor official is blindsided by the "illegal vehicle". The official can't really say - "let me see you not walk", so maybe if the student/trainer went to the show secretary/td and just reminded them that she/he is there, and needs to use the "illegal vehicle" to get around and just let the people with the power know, the problem would go away.

All these suit happy people make it sound like events are discriminating against people who need motorized vehicles to get around. They're not. They're busy running horse trials. They might have 200 riders, and 200 trainers, and 200 grooms, and 200 parents. That's a lot of people they have to worry about. Sorry, it's not a conspiracy to overturn the ADA.

A person has to have a Blue Sticker to park in a (sorry) Handicapped spot. I can say I have debilitating arthritis and can't walk, but if I can't back it up with the blue tag, too bad, so sad for me.

Let's face it, there are more trainers that need these accommodations, so it's going to become more common. Maybe the USEA needs to make a blanket policy - here's the official USEA sticker for trainers who need motorized vehicles on course. Period, end of problem. (until someone says oh, my other golf cart is in the shop, this is a loaner)

A friend of mine jokes that his friends want to go Christmas shopping with him, since he has the blue tag. He likes to remind them that he had to break his neck to get the blue tag.

Yes, sound like the TD at Galway was rude, but he could have been that rude to the person who parked a trailer in a stupid spot, or the volunteer who messed something up. A rude TD? Whoever heard of such a thing?

[Ajierene]

I believe more than the choice of words it's how they are used in a sentence. Correctly it is People *with* disabilities/handicaps or people who *have* disabilities/handicaps. NOT a "disabled person" or a "handicapped person"." The difference is that one defines a person who has and issue. The other is the issue defining the person.

Isn't that right up there with the issue of calling an American of African decent an 'African-American' instead of 'black' or 'black-American' or even *gasp* 'colored' because these three are offensive? And somehow 'white' is not offensive? For all the Americans of recent European descent that are blamed for slavery and told that they are racist when their fathers, mother, aunts and uncles escaped the concentration camps (that did not just hold Jews...) and came to the US in the hopes for a better future for their children....sometimes they get a little annoyed at people running around nitpicking about words and word placement. Everyone is at least partially defined by their outward appearance, skills, abilities, etc.

What's the difference between saying 'that blonde girl' and 'that girl with blonde hair'? You could make the argument that there is a difference because the person has a disability and hence are being defined by that disability. What about the blonde jokes and the idea that blondes are idiots? From now on, I am going to insist that people refer to me as the 'woman with blonde hair'....because I am not a dumb blonde girl....

[Carol Ames]

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/04/18/sports/golf-conflicting-rulings-keep-cart-issue-in-courts.html?n=Top


Here's the ruling on thegolf cart for the golfer:confused: ryling/Reference/Times%20Topics/Subjects/G/Golf&pagewanted=2

[TLA]

If anyone witnessed what happened at Galway, it would be helpful if they would download and file with USEF a Confidential Evaluation of Officials (even though it was FEI, this official probably has a USEF License). Send it to Diane Shawback, and mark Confidential. From personal experience, I can assure you that NOTHING relating to the person filing the report will get back to the official (I served as CD at an event where the GJ or TD was a person I had written up previously - never a problem). Things like this need to be addressed by the Federation.
Tom Angle

[mjrtango93]

If anyone witnessed what happened at Galway, it would be helpful if they would download and file with USEF a Confidential Evaluation of Officials (even though it was FEI, this official probably has a USEF License). Send it to Diane Shawback, and mark Confidential. From personal experience, I can assure you that NOTHING relating to the person filing the report will get back to the official (I served as CD at an event where the GJ or TD was a person I had written up previously - never a problem). Things like this need to be addressed by the Federation.
Tom Angle

Tom thanks for that info, I will let my friend know that was riding as she was there through the incident. It is regarding an FEI official but was during a USEF division, not even FEI but I guess it would still apply.

[tlw]

I've been defending public accommodations in ADA suits throughout the country for over 15 years and am very familiar with all aspects of the law. My opinion of much of what has been said on this thread from a legal perspective is that there is a lot of general knowledge about the existence of the ADA but not a lot of accurate knowledge of what portions of the Act would apply in this instance. The ADA is an anti-discrimination law and not a physical entity that one can contact and complain to. The U.S. Department of Justice is the federal entity charged with the responsibility of enforcing the Act. Of course, private parties can file their own suits if they feel they have been discriminated against. That said, I'm not voicing an opinion one way or the other whether a suit should be filed here but I've always been a proponent of working things out without the court's intervention.

Title III is the portion of the Act that is applicable in this instance. It provides that owners, operators, lessors and lessees of a public accommodation are the ones responsible for compliance with the Act's requirements. That places the responsibility on the owner of the facility and the folks who lease it for the event if they are not the owners (i.e., a local pony club). Those folks may not be very familiar with the Act and are, therefore, at risk.

I've been involved with various national association's accessibility committees. Those Associations have realized that part of the service they should provide to their members is information on the ADA and how it applies to the various activities conducted by its members (i.e., putting on horse trials, hosting clinics, conducting pony club rallies, etc.). What I would like to see is for the USEF and/or the USEA to come out with some type educational program for the folks putting on events to familiarize them with their responsibilities. There are plenty of existing programs out there identifying the requirements and explaining the sensitivity issues that may come into play so the burden shouldn't be too great.

There are those that may say that if the event is "recognized" and/or "sanctioned" by the USEF or USEA that they may be liable under that Act as well. Don't get me wrong, I firmly believe that most folks genuinely want to do the right thing but often get mixed signals between what the law requires and what common courtesy and common sense dictates. A little informed education can go a long way.

As you may have noticed, I have refrained from giving a legal opinion on the situation identified by the OP. My desire here is get folks thinking about getting educated on the issues with the goal of improving accessibility within the framework of the law. The sport's governing bodies could be a real resource to their members on this issue if they choose to be.

[GotSpots]

I've been involved with various national association's accessibility committees. Those Associations have realized that part of the service they should provide to their members is information on the ADA and how it applies to the various activities conducted by its members (i.e., putting on horse trials, hosting clinics, conducting pony club rallies, etc.). What I would like to see is for the USEF and/or the USEA to come out with some type educational program for the folks putting on events to familiarize them with their responsibilities. There are plenty of existing programs out there identifying the requirements and explaining the sensitivity issues that may come into play so the burden shouldn't be too great. Sounds like you have some great expertise that could be really helpful to the organizations! Any interest in volunteering to help USEA think about putting together some kind of educational program?

[tlw]

I guess I should have seen this coming - that's how smart I am. :-)

This is a subject very near to my heart and I am always willing to help folks understand things a little better. PM me and I'll see if I can be of any service.

[mjrtango93]

I guess I should have seen this coming - that's how smart I am. :-)

This is a subject very near to my heart and I am always willing to help folks understand things a little better. PM me and I'll see if I can be of any service.

tlw, thanks for the offer of assistance. I am going to contact USEA and USEF and see what their thoughts are on all this, and if they would be willing to incorporate some sort of training into the officials qualifications. Once that is sort of figured out I will get in touch and see if there is anything you could do to help. Thank you!

[tlw]

mjrtango93:

That's the thing about this. It is not really an official's place to enforce the ADA, that's the job of the DOJ. Officials have no standing to enforce the Act's requirements and, frankly, they have enough to worry about without trying to interpret the Act's complicated requirements.

My point was for the USEF to consider providing education to the folks at risk - the facility owners and the ones putting on the shows if they are not the facility owners. I guess, too, for the folks affected by a lack of accessibility like the OP's trainer. Perhaps a seminar at the national convention, a pamphlet outlining general obligations & sensitivity issues, etc.

It may be that the USEF feels that the facility owners and those who put on the shows have the legal obligation to comply and, therefore, don't want to get involved - a perfectly understandable position. If, however, they are looking for an opportunity to provide another valuable service to a certain portion (albeit a small one) of the membership, this might be a good opportunity.

I apologize if I have gotten this thread sidetracked. That was not my intention.

[yellowpony]

Hey all,
I am a disabled equestrian who competes in combined driving, and have encountered this issue quite a lot. The biggest piece of advice I can give is to communicate with show organizers and if possible the technical delegate about needs before the show starts.. I usually try to approach them before the jog. Most organizers and officials are happy to make accommodations, within reason, if they know about the issue. In my experience, ATV's and golf carts racing around show grounds are a major PITA for show management. I always try to make sure they know I am not one of the inconsiderate people, never driving places I don't need to, parking in other people's way, running them down, etc.

I have also found that show officials are much more at ease with allowing you to do such things if you have some sort of documentation of your disability. For me this is an FEI card which I was issued when graded at the World Championships, on the back it has a list of accommodations. I am not sure she could get this particular card as she is not competing, but perhaps working with the federation with some sort of official documentation could help.

Lastly, your trainer will have to have some sort of placard. This is only fair because not everyone is going to know why your coach is allowed to drive around. It makes me kind of sad that your trainer is ashamed to do so..makes me think she should attend a para-equestrian event sometime.

Hope this helps,
Meghan
(2008 gold medalist and proud :D )

[FlightCheck]

Thank you, Meghan, for such a well thought out post.